So we have to take the advantage
of the instruction in the sastra. Now Krsna is accepted the supreme authority by
all the acaryas. The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the acaryas.
Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami, Nimbarka, Lord Caitanya...Reporter:
Sankaracarya.Prabhupada: Sankaracarya. They all accept Krsna. Krsnas tu
bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. They accept it. So how can you defy all these
acaryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense.Reporter: But all
these acaryas interpret in different, different ways.Prabhupada: No.
No.Reporter: No?Prabhupada: On the principle, they never... Just like
Sankaracarya and Ramanujacarya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of
them accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their
notes, comments on Bhagavad-gita. Sankaracarya, although he is impersonalist, he
says narayanah parah avyaktat: Narayana is beyond this cosmic manifestation;
He's transcendental. That means he says He's person. Narayana, as soon as
Narayana, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in the
spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His
philosophy, he started the philosophy, brahma satyam jagan mithya.Reporter:
Brahma satyam jagan mithya.Prabhupada: So he wanted to stop these material
activities. Jagan mithya. Sankaracarya never advocated for nationalism, for
starting schools or college, hospital... Never. Why? Why should he do? If we say
jagan mithya, then why should we bother all these things?Reporter:
Yes.Prabhupada: So who is following Sankaracarya? And they say that "We are
followers of Sankaracarya." And they are engaged. Sankaracarya follower means he
must become first of all sannyasi, then talk anything else. So who is taking,
going to do that?Reporter: And all those Sankara Matha and Sankaracarya's
various places in India, don't live as jagat was mithya. (laughs)Prabhupada:
No, jagan mithya... We don't say jagan mithya.Reporter: No.Prabhupada:
We Vaisnavas, why should I say jagan mithya? If God is true, what is created by
Him, that is also true. Because Krsna says bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano
buddhir eva ca, bhinna me prakrtir astadha [Bg. 7.4]. Me, "My." So why should I
take Krsna's things as false? If Krsna is true, His things are also true. So we
don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. Our philosophy is
that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with
Krsna, it can be used for Krsna's purpose. That is karma-yoga, bhakti-yoga.
Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Just like here is a microphone
in the tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say "No, no, we are Krsna
conscious, we cannot touch this material thing." We don't say that.
Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Everything has connection with
Krsna, so why shall I call it as material? Parityaga. This is condemned by Rupa
Gosvami,
prapancikataya buddhya
hari-sambandhi-vastunah
mumuksubhih parityago
vairagyam phalgu kathyate
The mumuksu, the Shankarites, they are
after salvation. They give up this world.Reporter: He who wants
liberation.Prabhupada: Yes.Reporter: Mumuksu.Prabhupada: Yes.
Mumuksu. So this mumuksu, they're giving up this material things, but they do
not know there is connection with, ah, hari-sambandha.Reporter: Yes,
hari-sambandha.Prabhupada: They do not know this art.Reporter: Krsna
connection, yes.Prabhupada: Yes.Reporter: Now people know only "French
Connection," they're forgetting Krsna connection. (laughs) Yes, very
true.Prabhupada: But we see everything has got Krsna connection. Therefore
we utilize it for Krsna. Just like you're talking about Krsna, it is being
recorded. So it is useful for Krsna's service. Why should I give it up? Because
the airplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. Every year I'm
wandering all over the world, twice, thrice. Because if you use airplane. So why
shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Krsna consciousness
movement, why shall I give it up? It is mithya. Just like the Jains, they do not
ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach, very swiftly, and
come back again, why shall I give up this car? So our philosophy is not like
that. Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairagya.
We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial
building, that's all right. But you can talk things under the tree. But if I sit
down underneath a tree nobody will come to me. (everyone laughs) So why shall I
do that? This is our philosophy.anasaktasya visayanyatharham
upayunjatahnirbandhah krsna-sambandheyuktam vairagyam
ucyateYukta-vairagya. After all, you have to practice vairagya. Not under
attachment. But in connection with Krsna, nonattachment is required. Otherwise
this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithya,
how do they consider mithya? Because this artificial nonattachment will not
stay. Therefore, they say it is mithya, but they are accepting it, under a
different name -- "Now let us start this school, now let us start this
hospital..." They're coming to the mithya platform, under some disguise of
philanthropy activities. If it is mithya why you are starting a
school?Reporter: Yes. Only way is to sannyasa.Prabhupada: Yes. It is not
sannyasi business. For starting school the government is there, public is there.
Why you... That means brahma satyam you could not understand; you are coming to
the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satyam. Although he tried
to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself,
eh? So, people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this
school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this, give me some candana." "Give
me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This
is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithya, why you are coming again to this
mithya platform?Reporter: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.Prabhupada:
Detachment, that is required.Reporter: Anasakta.Prabhupada: Yes,
detachment and jnana. Jnana-vairagya.Reporter: Hm. The
jnana-vairagya.Prabhupada: This is the real achievement of human life, that
jnana-vairagya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vasudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogah prayojitah [SB 1.2.7]. Ah? Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty
asu vairagyam. Janayaty asu vairagyam. Just like these boys.Reporter: Quick
detachment.Prabhupada: Ah? Immediate...Reporter: Instant, instant, asu
vairagya.Prabhupada: Asu vairagya. They're attached to so many things. Now
these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the
cinema, I shall smoke, I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why?
Janayaty asu vairagyam. They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can
see.Reporter: Yes.Prabhupada: They've kicked out all these things.
Practically you can see.Reporter: Yes.Prabhupada: Or if you ask them,
"Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (everyone laughs)
This is vairagya. They do not want anything except Krsna. They do not want
anything except Krsna. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old,
they've got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, the Western
countries. How they have given up? Jnana-vairagya. Janayaty asu.Reporter:
Vairagya, yes.Prabhupada: Asu, "very immediate."Reporter: Hm.
Instant.Prabhupada: Instant.Reporter: Yes.Prabhupada: So bhakti-yoga
is so powerful. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah, janayaty asu
vairagyam... [SB 1.2.7].Reporter: Is this in the Gita, in
Bhagavad-gita?Prabhupada: No, in Bhagavatam.Reporter: Bhagavatam,
yes.Prabhupada: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking
to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he
could not give up.Reporter: But he was not in power or
position.Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I
wrote Gandhi, "You have so much respect now, now you have got sva-raja, you give
up this business, let us preach Bhagavad-gita, people will hear you." Before
starting this movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.Reporter: But he was
praying, he was going to pray Hare Krsna. He was devotee.Prabhupada: He was
for political emancipation.Reporter: Hm?Prabhupada: No, we don't want to
discuss, but the thing is that...Reporter: (laughs)Prabhupada: ...these
politicians, they do not grow vairagya, even up to the point of
death.Reporter: Yes, true.Prabhupada: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru,
Pantha(?)... They stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither did
they know that there is necessity of vairagya. But Vedic philosophy says... All
the acaryas, they're all vairagis, either Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya,
Ramanujacarya, they're all sannyasis. Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All vairagis. Even
Jesus Christ, he was a vairagi. Even Lord Buddha, vairagi. This is required, but
where is the vairagya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and
they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished,
vairagya. This is the first stage, vairagya, bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir
anyatra [SB
11.2.42].anyabhilasita-sunyamjnana-karmady-anavrtamanukulyena
krsnanu-silanam bhaktir uttama [Brs. 1.1.11]That is
sarva-dharman parityajya. This is vairagya.Reporter: Yes.
Yes.Prabhupada: Sarva-dharman parityajya means vairagya [Bg.
18.66].Reporter: Yes, means vairagya.Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise we are
embarrassed with so many dharmas. Social dharma, political dharma, national
dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brahmana-dharma, sudra-dharma, so
many. Therefore Krsna says sarva-dharma.Reporter: All of
them.Prabhupada: All give up. This is vairagya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya [SB
1.2.12]. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. The bhakti-yoga means, jnana-vairagya-yuktaya.
Jnana and vairagya there must be. Can you find that verse?vadanti tat
tattva-vidastattvam yaj jnanam advayambrahmeti paramatmetibhagavan
iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]Pradyumna:tac chraddadhana
munayojnana-vairagya-yuktayapasyanty atmani catmanam... [SB
1.2.12]Prabhupada: Pas... Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya.
Jnana-vairagya... Without jnana-vairagya you cannot make any spiritual
advancement. Then?Pradyumna: Pasyanty atmani catmanam...Prabhupada:
Ah.Pradyumna: ...bhaktya sruta-grhitaya.Prabhupada: Bhaktya
sruta-grhitaya. Sruta-grhitaya. By hearing from authority. Sruta. Grhitaya.
Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. This is the process. Tac chraddadhana munayo
jnana-vairagya-yuktaya, pasyanty atmanam atmani, sruta-grhitaya, bhaktya
sruta-grhitaya [SB 1.2.12]. This is the process.Reporter: By devotion, by
listening you receive and see the self...Prabhupada: Yes.Reporter:
...within the self.Prabhupada: Yes, within the self.Reporter: Atmani
atmanam. [break]Prabhupada: What is the purport?Pradyumna: "The Absolute
Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord
Vasudeva, or the Personality of Godhead..."Prabhupada: This is confirmed in
Bhagavad-gita. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55].
Never says by jnana or karma you'll get.Reporter: Only bhakti,
yes.Prabhupada: Go on.Pradyumna: "...who is the full-fledged Absolute
Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramatma is His
partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramatma realization of the
Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of
living beings. The karmis, the jnanis, the yogis and the devotees. The karmis
are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class
transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The
second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the
plenary portion of the Absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalist
are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute
Person."Reporter: Who are those three, jnanis...?Prabhupada: Jnanis,
yogis...Reporter: And karm...Prabhupada: Karmis, jnanis,
yogis...Reporter: And bhaktas.Prabhupada: So karmis are not
transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jnanis, yogis and bhaktas, they're
transcendentalists.Reporter: Yeah. So jnanis are third class.Prabhupada:
Yes. Jnanis are...Reporter: Why?Prabhupada: Because they simply approach
the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.Reporter: I see. They're
intellectual.Prabhupada: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.Reporter:
Ah.Prabhupada: Aham brahmasmi. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. They
get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full
understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the
third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramatma, Visnu, within the
heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like
Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Krsna. This is the result of
bhakti.Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence.Prabhupada: Not feel.
Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.Reporter: Yeah.
You think Mirabhai was a bhakta?Prabhupada: Yes. He was devotee..., she was
a devotee.Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence.Prabhupada:
Oh, yes.Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue.Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise,
how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already
my husband, Giridhari."Reporter: Hm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah?
And she drank it.Prabhupada: Yes. I think that you people, you can
understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the
name of your paper?Reporter: Researchers.Prabhupada:
Researchers.Reporter: Yes.Prabhupada: That gentleman I talked to, he was
also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men.
Because in the jnanis, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the
position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Brahma-bhutah
prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. When one gets the brahma-jnana, brahma-bhuta [SB
4.30.20], and identifies himself, aham brahmasmi, "I'm Brahman," so,
prasannatma: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing
to do with this material world. Na socati na kanksati. Then he can see everyone
on the equal level. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then, mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg.
18.54]. After being brahma-bhuta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position
of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, suddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas,
they have got three stages-kanistha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one
comes to the madhyama-adhikari, not to remain in the lowest stage,
kanistha-adhikari.Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too,
each.Prabhupada: How long you are here, in London?Reporter: I have been
on and off for two, three years.Prabhupada: Ah.Reporter: And I will stay
two or three more years.Prabhupada: So, you are family man?Reporter:
Yes, this is my wife.Prabhupada: You're married here.Reporter:
Yes.Prabhupada: Children?Reporter: One child.Prabhupada: That's
nice.Reporter: And we have called our child Mukti.Prabhupada: That's
nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing, (everyone laughs). Rupa Gosvami says
bhukti-mukti-sprha yavat pisaci hrdi vartate. Manifested..., that so long the
pisaci... Pisaci, you know?Reporter: Yes, yes.Prabhupada: The pisaci of
bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmi's business, "I shall enjoy."Reporter:
Yes.Prabhupada: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the
Supreme." So these two things are described as pisaci.Reporter:
Really?Prabhupada: Yes.Reporter: Ah, pisaci means witch.Prabhupada:
Bhukti-mukti-pisaci (etc.)Reporter: "As long as...?"Prabhupada: "So long
these two pisacis are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of
bhakti?"Reporter: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be
one with the perfect one without bhakti.Prabhupada: Yes.Reporter:
Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to
bhakti and then you can...Prabhupada: You have to go to mukti, and then
bhakti. Just as I explained.brahma-bhutah prasannatmana socati na
kanksatisamah sarvesu bhutesumad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg.
18.54]Reporter: Ah.Prabhupada: So after being mukta. The bhakta is
already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:mam ca yo
'vyabhicarenabhakti-yogena sevatesa gunan
samatityaitanbrahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]So a bhakta is
already brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's
already mukta. Just like Bilvamangala Thakura says,bhaktis tvayi sthiratara
bhagavan yadi syaddaivena nah phalati divya-kisora-murtihmuktih svayam
mukulitanjali sevate 'smanand dharmartha-kama-gatayah
samaya-pratiksah Dharmartha-kama, this is karmi's position. And moksa
is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional
attitude upon You, My Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And
this this dharmartha-kama, they're at my command." Simply by bhakti. The people
are after dharma, artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], but these four
things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman
dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah.Devotee: Prasadam.Prabhupada:
Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asyopajayate. (Guest and devotees talk in
background.)Reporter: (aside:) Please... But calling krsnarpanam, and
calling mukti and bhukti pisaci is a rather strong expression.
(laughs)Prabhupada: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position.
They can use strong word against mukti.Reporter: Yes, yes, they
can.Prabhupada: (laughs)Reporter: The attachment is mukti, materialistic
attachment, and bhukti... [break] I was very impressed with the account,
how...Prabhupada: This will be New Gokula.Reporter: New Gokula. Hm, hm,
it's very good.Prabhupada: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvipa, New
Jagannatha Puri, New Dvaraka...Pradyumna: New Gaya...Prabhupada: ...New
Gaya, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm
talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted
the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they
could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or
there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this
movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Krsna consciousness,
all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and
here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do
they not join? It is practical.Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that
politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in
power.Prabhupada: Therefore they're mudhas.Reporter: Yes.Prabhupada:
Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So India cannot be
happy being guided by the duskrtino mudhah naradhamah. It is not possible. This
request I made to Gandhi That "You are..." People accepted him as a spiritual
man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this movement sincerely
and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times.Reporter: Yes, yes.
But that... What Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request?Prabhupada:
No.Reporter: No. Hm.Prabhupada: But it did not go to his hand-hands of
his secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us
become prime minister."Reporter: (laughs) Yes. But how problems of India,
like poverty...Prabhupada: Hm?Reporter: Like poverty, and this lack of
balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved?Prabhupada:
That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it
to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have
rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal -- to remain satisfied in
one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town,
for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your
food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he
wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want
food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the
capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru
wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the
folly.Reporter: Hm. Hm. I agree.Prabhupada: The Congress side, the
followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principles -- from political
point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that.Devotee: (to
guests:) Some ksira?Reporter: Oh!Prabhupada: That's all? Don't get
more?Reporter: (indistinct)Prabhupada: They actually, by destroying the
Manchester millionaires, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmadabad millionaires.
And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one rupee per pair,
now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair.Reporter: Yes,
yes.Prabhupada: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The
Manchester cloth, very nice cloth -- one rupee six annas per pair, retail
sale.Reporter: Hm. Hm. Now same thing for thirty rupees.Prabhupada: Just
see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmadabad capitalists. That's
all.Reporter: Hm. Yes.Prabhupada: So frying pan. From frying pan to the
fire.Reporter: (laughs) Yes. Very true.Prabhupada: Everything is due to
lack of God consciousness.Reporter: Quite true. And therefore, nothing is
working.Prabhupada: No. (pause)Reporter: I'm not going by car, as you
said. (everyone laughs)Prabhupada: Are you not plucking your
hairs?Reporter: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in
the one year, plucking all hair.Devotee: The whole head, you pull
your...?Reporter: Whole head, yes. It's an extreme form of a...Devotee:
Austerity.Reporter: Ah?Devotee: It's an austerity.Reporter: Yes. And
then I came to... I left it, and came to Benares, and...Prabhupada: So when
you joined this (indistinct-Sarboddha?) movement? At Benares?Reporter: Yes.
I was meet... I met Vinoba Bhave, and...Prabhupada: He's still
living?Reporter: Yes.Prabhupada: What is his philosophy?Reporter:
His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a
devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village
organization and simple living and producing food and clothes, in the village,
and not going to the city. This is his principle, on the economy scale. And on
the spiritual end, religious, he's a brahma-vidya. He's seeking brahma-vidya.
And he has in Padnab(?) Brahma-vidya Mandir.Prabhupada: Hm.Reporter: So
he is... He is a follower of Sankaracarya.Prabhupada: Mukti,
bhukti.Reporter: Ah?Prabhupada: Mukti.Reporter: Mukti,
yes.Prabhupada: Pisaci.Reporter: Hm? (everyone laughs)Prabhupada:
(laughs) Bhukti-mukti-pisaci.Reporter: Yes.Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms." Bhukti-ism and
mukti-ism. Therefore Krsna says, "Give up all these isms. Simply take surrender
unto Me, that's all." This is real love.hari-sambandhi-vastunah
mumuksubhih parityago
vairagyam phalgu kathyate
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973,
London
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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