Prabhupada: (translated into
Spanish by Hrdayananda) At the present moment it is required that the leading
men should understand the aims of life and introduce it in the society for the
general benefit of the human society. In the present chaotic position of the
society... Just like we see on the road, cars are running with great speed, this
way and that way, but they do not know what is the aim of life. Ask any one of
them that "What is the aim of life, and why you are running so speedily, and
what is the business?" Everyone will say, "I have got business. I am going
hurriedly." And if I ask, "What is that business?" "Business means to earn some
money and maintain the family." that's all. So is it a fact that to earn some
money and maintain the family or at night sleep or sex indulgence, is that the
aim of life? So that is my submission to the heads of the cultural movement. Is
that the cultural end, to sleep at night or sex indulgence and at night earn
money and maintain the family? I am asking this question.
Professor: (translated into English by Hrdayananda) He says
that he agrees that the goal of life is not that, but that from his childhood
he's been trained in a certain way, and he has not been taught anything else,
and how can he achieve a different way of life?
Prabhupada: Yes, that we are teaching in this Krsna
consciousness movement, how you can change it. Therefore we asking all leading
men to understand this movement and join it. That is our request.
Professor: There is a question I would like to ask. I do know
that it is not the aim of life just to every morning keep your family, go to bed
and have sex. But it is part of life.
Prabhupada: That I know also, everyone knows. But beyond
that, there must be some aim of life.
Professor: But being so... I think that there is... There
should be some kind of humbleness, the necessary humbleness.
Prabhupada: No, humbleness is of course good qualification,
but the humbleness you will find in animal also, very humble. If you cut his
throat, he will not tell anything. So humbleness also, that is another thing,
but what should be the aim of life? What is the actual aim of life? If we forget
the aim of life and simply become humble like ass, is that very good
qualification? The ass is very humble. You load upon it tons of loads. It will
not protest. Very humble.
Hrdayananda: (Spanish) He says that the goal of life is to
achieve the transcendence.
Prabhupada: Yes, right. The goal of life is realization of
transcendence. So, that they are forgetting. They have made their goal of life
as sense gratification. (translated into Spanish by Hrdayananda)
Professor: What kind of transcendence would that be?
Prabhupada: Transcendence means the Absolute Truth. What do
you mean by transcendence?
Professor: By transcendence, I understand it, the universal
consciousness. The search for God.
Prabhupada: Yes, right you are. This life, human life, is
distinguished from animal life because the animal cannot inquire about
transcendence. The human life, if it is not interested in transcendence, then he
is animal. If simply he is interested with the bodily demands of life, namely
eating, sleeping, sex and defense, these are bodily demands of life. So if we
think that "Dog is eating on the street, and we are eating very palatable
dishes, nicely made, very tasteful. That is advancement of civilization," that
is not advancement of civilization because it is, after all, eating. Similarly,
sleeping; the animals sleep on the street and we sleep in very nice apartment.
But in sleeping, we dream horrible things more than the animals. So eating,
sleeping, sex life and trying for defense, these are common formulas both for
the animals and for the man. Therefore a human being is distinguished from the
animal when he enquires about transcendence. And that is explained in the great
literature Brahma-sutra, or the philosophy of Vedanta-sutra, athato brahma
jijnasa: "Now we have got this human form of life. We must enquire about the
Brahman, or transcendence." So our bodily necessities of life should be
simplified as much as it is required. We must save time for enquiring about
transcendence. So unless we enquire about the transcendence, then we are
two-legged animals. This is culture, this is the aim of life.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that in European history
many, many people, in the name of looking for transcendence, there have been so
many wars, hatred between men, and, you may know, in Spain they had what is
called the Inquisition where they burned so many people. And so he's saying,
psychologically, that his brain tells him that in the name of searching after
transcendence there has been so much bad, so how is this different?
Prabhupada: The difference is transcendence is beyond our
mind, bodily activities, mental activities or intelligence. The European
philosophers and transcendentalists, they do not know actually what is
transcendence. They understand that there is something, but they do not know
what it is. Therefore they speculate by their imperfect senses. Gradually it
becomes craziness. Therefore you find that defect.
Professor (Hrdayananda): So do you mean to say that this is
just a contemplative thing that doesn't really have a active influence upon the
society to change the different...?
Prabhupada: No, we must first of all understand that our
senses are imperfect. Just like we are sitting in this room. We have got our
eyes, but we cannot see what is there, going on, beyond this wall. The sun is
fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, and we are seeing just
like a disc. So the eyelid is just near the eyes, but we cannot see what is the
eyelids. If the light is off, we cannot see. So we can see under certain
condition. Then what is the value of our seeing? If we, even if we manufacture
telescope, that is also manufactured by the imperfect senses, so it is also not
perfect. So anything understood by manipulating our imperfect senses, that is
not real knowledge. So our process of understanding real knowledge is to take it
from the person who has the real knowledge. Just like if we contemplate or
speculate who is my father, it is never possible to understand who is my father.
But if we receive the words from mother that "Here is your father," that is
perfect. Therefore the process of knowledge should be not to speculate but to
receive it from the perfect person. If we receive knowledge from a mental
speculator, that is not perfect knowledge.
Professor (Hrdayananda): What would be the mechanism or
process to get this perfect knowledge and to purify our senses?
Prabhupada: First of all we have to accept this truth, that
perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect person. Just like I have
given the example, who is my father. You can understand it from the perfect
person, mother. If somebody speculates, "This gentleman may be your father, this
gentleman may be your father," that is not perfect knowledge. The perfect
knowledge is with the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father." That is
perfect knowledge. Just like, therefore, in the Bhagavad-gita it is said,
tad viddhi pranipatena
(aside:) Find out
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti tad jnanam
jnaninah tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
Now, what is the meaning of tattva-darsinah?
Hrdayananda: "The seers of the truth."
Prabhupada: Yes. You have to... Just like mother has seen the
father. So her knowledge is perfect. But I have not seen my father. Because
before my birth there was father, I do not know who is my father. The mother has
seen the father. So you have to approach such a person who has seen the truth.
That is the way of... Now you have to find out a person who has seen the
transcendence and receive knowledge of transcendence from him. Then it is
perfect.
Professor: (Spanish) What I mean is that, you know. We are
all imperfect because we are imperfect. Right? So how can a master, a person who
really understands or who claims to really understand be able to know
perfection, to see the truth, how can he with his imperfect senses...
Prabhupada: You are right, you are right.
Professor: ...know the real truth.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore I say...
Professor: How can I get with my imperfect senses the
perfection brought by the master?
Prabhupada: The same example. Just like the mother has seen
the father, and the mother says not only to her son but other gentleman that
"Here is the father of the son." So the other gentleman who has not seen the
father but on the verification by the mother, he accepts the real thing. Hearing
from the perfect is also perfect. If I get the chance of hearing from the
perfect, then I may not be perfect, but because I have heard from the perfect,
what I say, that is perfect.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that he accepts that we
can receive perfect knowledge, but then because I am imperfect I make an
imperfect interpretation.
Prabhupada: No, you are not allowed interpretation. As soon
as you interpret, you become imperfect. Therefore we are presenting
Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Don't interpret. Before this, all these rascals were
simply interpreting and spoiling the whole thing. So this is the fact.
Professor: So what you really are asking for is blind
faith.
Prabhupada: Not blind faith. Perfect man is perfect. Unless
you understand that he is perfect, don't hear from him. That is blind. Without
knowing that he is perfect, if you hear, that is your imperfectness. Why should
you try to hear from a person whom you do not know perfectly well that he is
perfect?
Hrdayananda: Can I translate that?
Prabhupada: Yes. If you hear blindly, that is your
imperfectness. You must be first of all convinced that. "The person from whom I
am hearing, he is perfect." Then your knowledge is perfect.
Professor: That conviction is not the product of
reasoning.
Prabhupada: It is not convention. It is not convention. It is
actually knowing that "I have approached this perfect man." Just like the same
example: if you approach the mother of the son, she is the perfect to know the
father, and if you have known from the mother that "This boy's father is this
gentleman," that knowledge is perfect. Even though you have not seen while the
father was begotten, giving birth, it doesn't matter. But because you have heard
from the mother -- she is perfect -- therefore your knowledge received from her
is perfect. Therefore it is written, tattva-darsibhih, "who has seen the truth."
So you have to approach such person who has seen the truth.
Professor: Well, that brings that to my original question
again. How do I know who is perfect?
Prabhupada: That is another thing, that you have to search
out such person. Otherwise your knowledge is imperfect. Now that question will
be: "How to find out such person?" The next question will be. But unless you
approach such perfect person, you cannot have perfect knowledge. That is a fact.
Therefore the conclusion is that we should not speculate about perfect
knowledge, but we should try to approach the perfect person and receive
knowledge from him. This is the conclusion.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's more or less saying that in the
Catholic church how they also demand the same type of faith. He said they all
have a bad experience with that. And then he more or less...
Prabhupada: No, no, I can understand. The thing is that
everyone can take advantage of this statement that "I am perfect." Just like so
many rogues and bogus persons come. But it is your duty to know whether he is
perfect. It is your duty to test whether he is perfect. That requires
intelligence. If you unintelligently accept some bogus person as perfect, that
is your fault. You must be assured that "The person from whom I am asking, he is
perfect." Then you take it. Otherwise don't take.
Professor: Can I put a question? Why do you always say, "From
a perfect person"?
Prabhupada: Because the knowledge must be perfect; otherwise
imperfect knowledge.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying why do you say a perfect
person instead of saying a perfect philosophy?
Prabhupada: No, unless the philosophy is given by a perfect
person how the philosophy can be perfect? Philosophy means searching after the
truth. So if he does not know how to find out the truth, what is the meaning of
his philosophy? I was a student of philosophy. My professor was Dr. Urquhart. He
used to say that "Philosophy is the science of science." So unless he is a
perfect scientist, how he can give science?
Professor: I have other question. Why do we want to
transcend?
Prabhupada: I am not wanting. I am simply distributing the
transcendental knowledge.
Professor: Will not transcendence be an illusion too?
Prabhupada: No, no, there is proof. It is not emotion. What
you say, you have no proof, but what I say I have got proof. What you say, you
become your own authority. But what I say, I have got greater authority. Just
like two lawyers speaking before the court -- the lawyer who gives quotation
from the authority, he gains the case.
Professor: Do you have any evidence?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Professor: Would you tell us your experiences in that
field?
Prabhupada: Yes, that, of course, it will take time for you
to understand. Because unless you are lawyer, you cannot understand while the
other lawyer is giving quotation. But the court will accept.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He still wants to go on with the
same question he asked before: If we are content just to purify ourselves or if
we also want to help the society.
Prabhupada: No, you do not know what is self. How you will
purify? You do not know what is self. Can you say what is self?
Professor (Hrdayananda): Is it possible that he could spend
his whole life trying to find himself and at the end of his life not find
himself and meanwhile he didn't help the society?
Prabhupada: Not only one life, but millions of life, you will
not be able to know -- unless you change your policy.
Professor (Hrdayananda): What is the value of the
transcendence?
Prabhupada: Because you are transcendence. You are actually
seeking transcendence because you are transcendence.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He says that because he doesn't know
what the transcendence is, there's no value for him. It's only a name. He
doesn't know why to look for it.
Prabhupada: Yes. So first of all, as I say, that you are also
transcendence, you just try to know yourself first. Then you will know what is
transcendence. You are the sample of transcendence, and if you see the sample,
you can know the whole thing. Just like if you taste one drop of sea water, then
you can understand what is the chemical composition of the sea water. Therefore
your first business is to know yourself, that you are not this body. In this
way, when you know yourself, then you know the original transcendence.
Professor: Why do you make so much emphasis on
(indistinct).
Prabhupada: Because without this, you are animal.
Professor: What's wrong with being an animal?
Prabhupada: Animal means you are living a very risky
life.
Professor: A very...?
Prabhupada: Risky life. The animal is always in danger. A dog
is running, but at any moment he can be in danger. I have seen in my own eyes in
New York. It is little in the off from New York. In I think in the month of
December or January, a dog was jumping and he fell in the water pool and
immediately died. It was so cold it collapsed immediately. So what is the use of
this dog-like jumping? Besides that, in the animal society there is no question
of culture, religion, philosophy, science. Animal, they do not require it. And
why man requires it? That means human society is searching after the
transcendence. But without knowing the way, how to understand, they are now
engaged in different way. You find out this verse from Bhagavatam, jivasya
tattva-jijnasa na yas ceha karmabhih. Find out. Kamasya nendriya-pritih.
Hrdayananda: It's in the first volume.
Prabhupada: Yes. You know that? Find out this verse.
kamasya nendriya-pritir
(labho) jiveta yavata
jivasya tattva-jijnasa
(artho) yas ceha na karmabhih
[SB 1.2.10]
Find out this. Read it. (Hrdayananda translates into
Spanish)
Hrdayananda: They still have doubts on this point that how
can we know that it's worth our trouble, that if we dedicate our lives to this
searching for the transcendence, how can we be sure that at the end of it we
won't have wasted our lives? How can we be sure that the transcendence is
actually worth searching for?
Prabhupada: No, first of all you must understand the
importance of the business. Then we can do it. If you do not understand the
importance of the business, then you cannot do it.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He says that he feels that you've
already answered this question, but that they didn't catch it, that he thinks
the key is that you said that the truth is not outside, but it's actually within
us. We have to find it within us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He says why do you put so much
emphasis on the personalism after liberation because it seems like to him that
the ideal perfect thing would be the unity rather than having something
separate.
Prabhupada: That is your ideal, imperfect ideal. Because you
are imperfect.
Professor: Are you perfect master?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, because I am heard from the perfect. I
am not perfect, but what I say, that is perfect. Just like a child does not know
what is this dictaphone, but he has learned from the father, "This is
dictaphone," so when he says, "This is dictaphone," it is perfect. The child is
not perfect, but because he has heard from his father perfect, so the knowledge
is perfect.
Professor (Hrdayananda): That if you are not perfect, how can
you interpret the truth?
Prabhupada: Because I am giving the perfect truth. Anyone who
will accept, it will act. Just like a child says that "This is dictaphone. If
you use it like this, you'll get this result." That is perfect.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He says that not all knowledge is so
objective. For example, in the matter of understanding society, the communists
have their theory, the capitalists have their theory, and there's millions of
theories and so...
Prabhupada: That is not knowledge; that is art. Just like
electrician. He knows how to mix the two wires and bring the current. That is
not knowledge; that is a business or art for temporary recreation. And because
he knows the art how to bring the current, it does not mean that he knows the
Absolute Truth. So people are taking at the present moment electrician as the
knower of the Absolute Truth.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that he thinks that the
knowledge that you're giving is perfect because it is perfect knowledge and not
because you are giving it. Because it is revealed knowledge, perfect because it
is revealed.
Prabhupada: Yes. Anyone can take it. Just like we are giving
knowledge of the Bhagavad-gita. So the Bhagavad-gita is open for everyone; it is
not for me only. It is for you also. That is our movement, that you take the
perfect knowledge and be happy and make your life successful.
Professor (Hrdayananda): So he said one thing is to
understand theoretically the knowledge, and the other is to practice it. What is
the method for...?
Prabhupada: Everything is there. All questions solved,
economic, social, religious, politics, whatever you are-plus transcendental
knowledge.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He said it seems to him that this
involves a retiring from ordinary life, western life, and even maybe retiring
from ordinary eastern life.
Prabhupada: It is not the question of western life or eastern
life. The life... Just like westerners, they eat, and the easterners, they eat.
Now the question is how to supply eating. [break]
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that the way we dress,
our whole way of life, will make our movement only available to a few people
because it requires someone who is prepared to completely change his way of
life.
Prabhupada: Well, when there is question of knowledge, only
you will find a few people to get the knowledge. When you put this question,
"Find out some learned scholar," generally they will be very... Their number
will be very little. But one thing is that if there is one man in real
knowledge, he can give the..., distribute the knowledge to many. The example is
just like ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tara sahasrasah: If you get one moon at
night, that is sufficient to dissipate the darkness. And there are millions of
stars -- it is useless. So it is necessarily not required that everyone should
be in perfect knowledge. But if one man is in perfect knowledge, hundreds and
thousands can hear from him and they can perfect(?). So it does not depend on
the quantity; it depends on the quality.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that just like you give
the example of the dictaphone, but it seems like if he just recorded the
knowledge within his brain and then repeated it, that he would just be like an
instrument, and he might not really be conscious of the knowledge himself. He'd
just be transmitting it. It seems like... He thinks that's a defect because he's
not really, he might not be conscious.
Prabhupada: No, he doesn't require. Just like I am working
with this dictaphone. I am not a mechanic, but my business is going on. That is
required. I have read the instruction paper, that "You use this microphone like
this. You put this button," and three, four instruction. So I have learned it
and it is giving my business. That's all. Just like this lamp, the instruction
is "Push this button," (flicks light button) and it will go, all on. So I know I
will get the light. Now I am not electrician. It doesn't require. That much
knowledge is sufficient. But I want the light. So the electrician says, "Just
put this button in this way. Light will be there." So my business is
finished.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that for example he
could listen to everything that you were saying, and then he could repeat it,
and someone might say to him that "Oh, you are an expert. You are a master," but
actually he's not. He's simply repeating.
Prabhupada: No, this is example. By receiving a knowledge,
you must corroborate by your knowledge or by your experience, by the method.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita, it is said that Arjuna was declining to fight in
the war. So Krsna said that "You are simply lamenting on this body, but you do
not know what is the active principle of the body." So this you can understand
very nicely, that everyone is working for this body, but nobody knows what the
active principle of the body. Without the active principle of the body, this
body, alive or dead, is the same thing, lump of matter. So Arjuna accepted Krsna
as teacher; therefore He is chastising him that "You are talking like a learned
man, but you are lamenting on this body, but no learned man laments on this
body, either dead or alive." Because without the knowledge of the active
principle which is moving the body, what is the use of simply understanding the
bodily construction? The medical science knows the construction of the body,
anatomy, physiology, the bone, this muscle, the blood and everything, but he
does not know what is the active principle. When the active principle gone, they
cannot repair it. So there may be vast advancement of medical science, but if
the medical science cannot check birth, death, old age and disease, then what is
the use of it? It may have some temporary use, but actually it is not science.
Nobody wants to die. Is there medical science which can stop death? So that
knowledge may be temporary, beneficial, but ultimately, it is not the knowledge.
I am anxious for not dying. Nobody wants to die. This is my anxiety. And where
is that science, medical science? So we are satisfied with some temporary
knowledge. We have no ultimate knowledge. And because it is very difficult
subject matter, we have avoided it very carefully.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He does not see... He is
disappointed because he does not see any difference between Hare Krsna and all
the other religions.
Prabhupada: That's your business, but we find difference. And
we have no also difference with other religion. Now, other religions, they are
also searching after God. But religion, conception of religion, without God is
not religion. Do you admit or not?
Professor (Hrdayananda): All the religions say they have
knowledge of God.
Prabhupada: Yes. Anyway, religion means searching after
God.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He says for example they have a new
god which is money.
Prabhupada: Yes, because you are imperfect, therefore you are
thinking like that. Now, suppose you are on deathbed, can money save you? Then
why do you say money is all-powerful? God is all-powerful, but money is not
all-powerful. Then therefore money cannot be God.
Professor: Does religion or God, can give you eternal
life?
Prabhupada: What is that? What he says? He says money is
God.
Professor: No, I am not saying that. People down
here...
Prabhupada: People are rascal fools, what is the value of
their knowledge? Therefore knowledge, man of knowledge required.
Professor: There are many religions that have no God.
Prabhupada: Religion cannot be many; religion is one. If
anyone says there are many religions, that, he does not know what is religion.
Just like science: two plus two is equal to four. It is equally applicable
everywhere. You cannot say that "To the Christian two plus two equal to five,"
the "Christian science" or "Christian mathematics." That you cannot say. Science
and mathematics is the same everywhere. If God is one, therefore knowledge of
God should be one. There cannot be two.
Professor: No, that's ideally, but is not so.
Prabhupada: You hear. Because you imperfect, you have so many
things. But we hear differently.
Professor: I know that there is only one God.
Prabhupada: We say that God is one. Whether you accept it or
not? Unless God is one, there cannot be God. God cannot be many. God means, in
the dictionary it is said, "Supreme Being." The Supreme Being can be one. If
there is competition of Supreme Being, then he is not Supreme Being. That is the
philosophy. That is the philosophy. Then we have to find out who is that Supreme
Being. You cannot say... You find somebody who has got little power. You cannot
say, "Now here is God." The supreme power, that is God. Just like money, that is
also one of the qualification of God. But money, He has got all the money. You
may have got some money, some millions dollars. I may have got little more than
that. But nobody can say, "I have got all the money." Or one can say that "I
have got all the money," then He is God.
Guests: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: They want to hear the translation.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor (Hrdayananda): Is the final goal of transcendence,
then, immortality?
Prabhupada: All perfection.
Professor (Hrdayananda): Then what would that be then? What
would that be, that all perfection?
Prabhupada: That is transcendence. You come in contact with
the transcendence, all-perfect. Then you become all-perfect.
Professor: Is God perfect?
Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise how He is God? He is dog.
Professor: Is transcendence God?
Hrdayananda: They don't want to miss anything.
Professor (Hrdayananda): They want to know: is God the
transcendence?
Prabhupada: What is the transcendence? Find out the
meaning.
Hrdayananda: I can read it? First I'll read it in English. To
transcend... It only has the word transcend. "Go beyond..."
Prabhupada: Not "to," the verb, I mean to say, transcendence.
So find out the noun.
Hrdayananda: Noun is not here.
Prabhupada: Not here?
Hrdayananda: But I can change it into the noun. The
transcendence: "That which goes beyond, that which exceeds the limits, rises
above." And also transcendence means "that which transcends ordinary limits, the
supreme, the preeminent." So I'll translate it.
Prabhupada: This is the meaning is there, that our mind, our
bodily activities, our words, they are all limited. They are all limited. Do you
accept or not?
Professor: By time.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. It may be by time. Suppose a
child, he can say, "I am now foolish for the time." But he is foolish at that
time. That is not argument, that this child expects to become an M.A. That does
not mean he can say he is M.A. at that time. So you cannot make time. Unless you
are perfect in knowledge, you cannot say that you are in knowledge. Time,
everyone has got the chance. In time he will be in perfect knowledge. That is
not... There is no disagreement. But so long he is imperfect, he must admit that
he is imperfect. Now, a businessman, a small businessman, he is trying to become
millionaire, and if he says, "I will become millionaire in time," that does not
mean he is millionaire. He must first of all become millionaire. Then he should
claim.
Professor (Hrdayananda): If he accepts that he is imperfect,
what experience qualifies him to talk about God?
Prabhupada: That I have already discussed, that you have to
go to the perfect and take his experience. And then, gradually, you become a
perfect.
Professor (Hrdayananda): So then everything would be an act
of faith, simply to believe.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, not believe. You just corroborate it
with your experimental knowledge, and you will find it is right. Just like Krsna
says that...
Professor: Excuse me.
Hrdayananda: He says that in order...
Prabhupada: No, he wants to say something.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that in order to do any
activity it requires some motivation. And so therefore one gets this realization
by practicing, but it seems like someone would have to be a special person with
something inside him in order to have the determination to practice it, in order
to go ahead to try to get the realization.
Prabhupada: Yes that is required. There must be
determination, and whatever knowledge you get, that must be for practical use.
Now, just like in the Bhagavad-gita... Shall I speak? That he says that the
proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you make your thoughts working
on this, that what is that proprietor? And you find that actually this body is
not the proprietor, but body is the property, the proprietor is within the body.
Then your knowledge is perfect. Then your thoughts, your reasoning... You accept
the statement of Krsna that the proprietor of the body is within the body. That
is knowledge, perfect knowledge. What Krsna says, that is perfect, but you
corroborate with your reason, with your experimental knowledge, and you will
find that is perfect. Then it is perfect.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that with his psychology
he cannot accept that there should be some clue, some key, that could permit him
to accept it.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That psychology is perfect where there
is clue. Otherwise you will speculate all your life.
Professor (Hrdayananda): Then he's asking, he's humbly asking
you to give him a little bit of the clue.
Prabhupada: Yes, just like... It is very common sense clue.
Krsna says the proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you were a child.
So in your child body, you were present there, and in your boyhood body, you
were present there. In your youthhood body, you were present there. Now you are
middle-aged. You are there. I am old man. I am there. So body, the childhood
body, the boyhood body, the youthhood body, they are no more existing, but I am
existing. Therefore I am eternal; the body is temporary. This is the clue.
Therefore the conclusion is that as I have changed so many body but still I am
existing, therefore, when I shall change this body, I will exist. Now, I have
transmigrated from babyhood body to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to
youthhood. Similarly, I shall transmigrate to another body. A you..., young man
can say, "No, no, I don't believe in the old body," but that does not mean he
will not get the old body. He will get it by laws of nature. That is compulsory.
Similarly, if somebody says, "I don't believe in the next life," that does not
mean he is authority. Nature will give him. Nature will not agree or obey the
imperfect person. The same example: if the young man says, "I don't want old
body," nature will not hear him. Nature will give him, force him: "You must
accept old body." Everyone does not want to die, but nature puts him forcibly:
"Yes, you must die." So after all, we are perfectly under the control of
superior authority. We cannot become independent, and our independent thoughts
has no value.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that he thinks this will
increase our problem because psychologically it's bad that nature is so big and
we're so tiny.
Prabhupada: Well, you have already increased your
problem.
Professor (Hrdayananda): How?
Prabhupada: There is no solution. There is no solution. You
have no solution for anything, so you have increased your problems. Without
perfect knowledge, you'll simply increase your problems. That's all.
Professor (Hrdayananda): How can we get this perfect
knowledge and how can we practice it if we're like prisoners?
Prabhupada: That I have already explained. You have to go to
the perfect person.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He said first of all that he asked
you to give evidence, but that you did not. You said that you'd have evidence,
but you did not give it.
Prabhupada: Here is evidence. I have said that Krsna says the
proprietor lives within the body. Now you just try to understand and you will
find that yes, this body is not the... This is a property. The proprietor is
within. That is perfect knowledge. Just like a big mill going on. But if
somebody does not find out the proprietor, then does it mean that there is no
proprietor?
Professor: I am the owner of my own self.
Prabhupada: You are the not owner, but you are
occupier.
Professor: Occupier.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like a house. There are two persons,
one is the tenant and the other is the landlord. The proprietor is the landlord,
and the tenant is occupier. Actually that is self-realization, that I must know
that "I am occupier of this body but I am not proprietor." The proprietor is
God.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that all religions agree
that man can be perfected although he may not be perfect now...
Prabhupada: No, we are not talking of religion. We are
talking of philosophy and science. When we talk about these things that the
occupier of the body is within the body, it is neither any Christian knowledge
nor Hindu knowledge nor... It is fact. It is a science. The science cannot be "I
believe or you believe or you..." That is not science. Science is science. I
have already said. Two plus two equal to four is equally applicable everywhere.
Similarly, this is knowledge, that the proprietor, or the occupier of the body,
is within the body. You can study from any angle of vision. The fact is
there.
Professor: Is it transcendent?
Prabhupada: Yes, that occupier or...
Professor: I don't care who is the owner of my body. I know
that it is not going to be eternally mine because this body is going to corrupt,
is going to die, and we will have to bury it so that everybody will be happy.
But I don't care about that because I...
Prabhupada: That is animal. That is animal. That is animal
conception. That is animal conception, that a dog doesn't care. Similarly, if
you don't care, then you are no better than the dog.
Professor: I would not agree with that.
Prabhupada: Why not? Because your conception, the dog
conception, the same.
Professor: Well, you were saying beforehand...
Prabhupada: No, no, the dog doesn't care whether he is the
proprietor of the body or not. So if I don't care, then what is the difference
between dog and me?
Professor: The difference between dog and men is a very
slight one, that men can think, that men can reason.
Prabhupada: So, you say slight; we say nothing. Unless one
has got this transcendental knowledge, he is no better than the dog.
Professor: Dogs have knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes, for eating, sleeping and sex life and
defense, everyone has got knowledge. Dog has knowledge. You have got knowledge.
But what is the distinction between you and dog? In your life, you can realize
the transcendence. The dog cannot. That makes you distinct from...
Professor: Now, how can you be so sure of that? Have you ever
been in a dog's mind? How can... As you have already said...
Prabhupada: There is no need... There is no need because dog
is busy for his bodily requisition. And if you are simply busy for your bodily
requisition, then what is the difference between you and dog? We have to take
the principle.
Professor: Why is that difference so important for you?
Prabhupada: No, no, fundamentally what is the difference? The
dog is whole day busy to find out his food, and if you are also busy to find out
your food, then where is the difference?
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying, "Because I am not this
body, therefore it doesn't matter if I'm the owner of this body or not."
Prabhupada: No, then you have to... As soon as you decide
that you are not this body, you are transcendental to this body, then you have
to understand what is the transcendental nature and what is your business, what
you should do. These things will come. At the present moment, because I identify
me with this body, I am simply busy with this bodily concept of life. So as soon
as you understand that "I am not this body," that is called brahma-bhutah stage,
aham brahmasmi, "I am Brahman." That is the beginning of real knowledge.
Professor: (Spanish) That's the reason because I don't care
what happens to this body, not because there is a difference between dog and man
or anything.
Prabhupada: No, even if you care, who cares for you? It will
go by nature's way.
Professor: Right.
Prabhupada: That we say. That we say. Now I have got this now
nice body, and nature may offer something not very desirable body. Then what you
will do?
Professor (Hrdayananda): He said it doesn't matter to him if
he gets this body or that body, even a dog's body, because he will go on being
himself.
Prabhupada: That's all right. It doesn't matter him, but
there are persons -- he will shudder if he is said that "Next body you are going
to become a dog." (laughter)
Professor (Hrdayananda): Where is the beginning of evolution,
is that what he's saying? Where does evolution begin?
Devotee: What is the principle of evolution?
Hrdayananda: How can it be that we're advancing if we can
become a dog in the next life, is that it, or something inferior? Where is the
question of progress?
Prabhupada: What is that? No, by nature's way there is
evolution, from dog to fox, fox to this, that, that. That is... There is a law.
But again one can fall down. In this way one comes to the human form of body.
That is the chance of self-realization. But if in the human form of life, he
does not behave like a human being -- he behaves like cats and dogs -- then he
gets again cats and dogs. So if by his work, he gets degradation to get the body
like a dog, then again it will take millions of years to come to the human form
of life. Therefore intelligent man should be very careful. He should not say, "I
don't care." That is very risky life.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that he thinks that not
everyone's looking for God, but people should be asked whether they want to be
something different than what they are, and he thinks we need something
practical, not simply something of faith.
Prabhupada: Therefore I say that every practical things are
there in the Bhagavad-gita. You ask any question and the solution is
there.
Professor (Hrdayananda): They say that they say the same
thing of the Bible.
Prabhupada: Yes. You follow Bible. That is also nice. But you
do not follow. That is the difficulty.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that in this world we're
all so limited, and we're like prisoners, and the more laws that we submit to,
the more we become slaves.
Prabhupada: No, no more law. You simply follow the law given
in the Bible, as you are speaking of Bible. The Bible says, "Thou shall not
kill." Why you are violating? [break] ...if you don't follow, then you are not
spiritualist; you are fool. You remain again in this, then ignorance.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He said, "In others words, is all
humanity a fool then?"
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter) Otherwise why there is
Bible?
Professor (Hrdayananda): He said that it's impossible for, to
follow... that you said we have to approach a perfect person, but that means we
have to accept so many restrictions and this is actually impossible. It cannot
be done.
Prabhupada: Then it is impossible for you to become a perfect
man.
Professor (Hrdayananda): Why should the knowledge be so
limited?
Prabhupada: No, it is not limited; it is unlimited. But to
come to the unlimited, you have to cut down your limited knowledge.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He said he noticed that there are
only men here. Does that mean that women cannot become transcendental?
Prabhupada: Why not? There are so many women. Knowledge is
not restricted to men. It is open for everyone. That is stated in
the Bhagavad-gita,
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]
[break] Everyone is open. Just like university. University is not
restricted to a certain class. It is open for everyone. Everyone can go, take
the knowledge. And similarly, prison house is open for everyone. (laughter) Now
you make your choice whether you go to university or prison house.
Professor (Hrdayananda): How can one cut down his limited knowledge if
he's habituated to material life?
Prabhupada: Well, habit can be changed. Just like nobody is habituated
smoking from the very beginning of his life, but by association he learns
smoking. And again, by association he can give it up. These boys, American,
European boys, they were habituated so many bad things. Now they have given up.
Professor (Hrdayananda): How can we know what is good and what is bad?
How can we define them?
Prabhupada: When you come to the good, you will understand what is good.
When you come to the bad, you understand what is bad.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He does not understand.
Prabhupada: Suppose now there are a class of thief and class of honest
men. So if you associate with the thieves, you will learn how to steal. But you
understand also that "People hate us." The thieves, the thief class, they know
that the people hate, the police arrest, the police put them... They also know
that. But because they are habituated, they cannot give it up.
Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying stealing is relative. Some people
steal because they watch television, some people steal because they're hungry or
they need things...
Prabhupada: Well, in the eyes of the law, when you go to the court, if
somebody has stolen some diamond and if somebody has stolen some insignificant
thing, in the court the six month prison is there. The man who has stolen an
insignificant thing, the judge does not make any concession for him. "You have
stolen, you must go to the jail." And the man who has stolen the diamond, he
also takes the same term. So stealing is stealing. Either you steal diamond or a
little fruit, it doesn't matter. The punishment is the same for the
diamond-stealer and anything-insignificant-
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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