Prabhupada:
...advises Arjuna that "I am... The body and the soul different."
Dr. John Mize: The body and soul
are different, yes. So it seems to me too.
Prabhupada: That's nice. That is
the beginning of spiritual education. People do not understand. I have seen many
European big, big professors. They do not have any clear conception that the
body and the soul, different.
Dr. John Mize: It still disturbs
me, of course, how the body can influence the mind so much, the mind not being
the soul apparently. But I know that when I get hit on the back of the head, my
mind seems to blank out. Once in judo I recall having my carotid artery pressed
and consciousness left. But it was very pleasant. It was not unpleasant at all.
Prabhupada: No. Actually soul is
above intelligence. Above intelligence. Our gross senses, that is our present
perception, direct. And beyond these gross senses, there is the mind. And beyond
the mind, there is intelligence. And beyond intelligence, there is soul. So come
to that platform requires that meditation process to make the sense activities
calm and quiet, mind settle, and then come to the intelligence platform, then
come to the spiritual platform. Find out this verse,
indriyani parany
ahur
indriyebhyah param
manah
manasas tu para
buddhir
buddhes paro (tas tu) yah
sah
[Bg. 3.42]
Jayatirtha: Indriyani pramathini?
Prabhupada: Indriyani parany ahuh.
Para. You better come here.
Jayatirtha:
indriyani parany
ahur
driyebhyah param
manah
manasas tu para
buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu
sah
[Bg. 3.42]
Translation: The working senses
are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is
still higher than the mind; and he [the soul] is even higher than the
intelligence.
Purport: The senses are different
outlets for the activities of lust. Lust is reserved within the body, but it is
given vent through the senses. Therefore, the senses are superior to the body as
a whole. These outlets are not in use when there is superior consciousness, or
Krsna consciousness. In Krsna consciousness the soul makes direct connection
with the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore the bodily functions, as
described here, ultimately end in the Supreme Soul. Bodily action means the
functions of the senses, and stopping the senses means stopping all bodily
actions. But since the mind is active, then, even though the body may be silent
and at rest, the mind will act -- as it does during dreaming. But, above the
mind there is the determination of the intelligence, and above the intelligence
is the soul proper. If, therefore, the soul is directly engaged with the
Supreme, naturally all other subordinates, namely, the intelligence, mind and
the senses, will be automatically engaged. In the Katha Upanisad there is a
passage in which it is said that the objects of sense gratification are superior
to the senses, and mind is superior to the sense objects. If, therefore, the
mind is directly engaged in the service of the Lord constantly, then there is no
chance of the senses becoming engaged in other ways. This mental attitude has
already been explained. If the mind is engaged in the transcendental service of
the Lord, there is no chance of its being engaged in the lower propensities. In
the Katha Upanisad the soul has been described as mahan, the great. Therefore
the soul is above all-namely, the sense objects, the senses, the mind and the
intelligence. Therefore, directly understanding the constitutional position of
the soul is the solution of the whole problem.
With intelligence one has to seek
out the constitutional position of the soul and then engage the mind always in
Krsna consciousness. That solves the whole problem. A neophyte spiritualist is
generally advised to keep aloof from the objects of senses. One has to
strengthen the mind by use of intelligence. If by intelligence one engages one's
mind in Krsna consciousness, by complete surrender unto the Supreme Personality
of Godhead, then, automatically, the mind becomes stronger, and even though the
senses are very strong, like serpents, they will be no more effective than
serpents with broken fangs. But even though the soul is the master of
intelligence and mind, and the senses also, still, unless it is strengthened by
association with Krsna in Krsna consciousness, there is every chance of falling
down due to the agitated mind.
Prabhupada: Hm. The yogic process
is to control the mind. Our process is: immediately engage the mind in Krsna,
thinking of Krsna, feeling for Krsna, willing to act for Krsna. Then everything
will be all right. Then everything will be all right. If the mind is immediately
engaged in the lotus feet of Krsna, then this side and that side, everything
will be all right. Sa vai manah krsna-padaravindayoh [SB 9.4.18].
Padaravindayoh, in the lotus feet of Krsna mind is engaged. So this is our
process, "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama
Rama...," engaging the mind, meditation.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, the
doctor was saying that he holds to the philosophy of Kant.
Prabhupada: Hmm? Kant.
Bahulasva: Kant, yes. He was
explaining nicely his point of view downstairs before we came up.
Prabhupada: What is that Kant's
philosophy?
Dr. John Mize: One major
difference it seems with the point of view of the eastern Indian philosophies in
particular is that the soul of man does not seem to be something eternal, but it
seems to be something created.
Prabhupada: Created?
Dr. John Mize: Created.
Prabhupada: No. Soul is part and
parcel of God. As God is not created, He is creator, above creation, so the
father creates a child; therefore father is above creation. So God is above
creation. God created the cosmic manifestation. Before creation of this cosmic
world, God was there. Therefore He is not created; He is creator of all created
things. And the soul, being part and parcel of God, he is also not created.
Dr. John Mize: The question that
bothers me in part is then why would the soul... Because I understand your
conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally or part of God,
and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the
Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems
puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a
thing.
Prabhupada: That is his
independence.
Dr. John Mize: Independence.
Prabhupada: Instead of using
independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls.
Dr. John Mize: I'm sorry, he what?
Prabhupada: He falls down.
Dr. John Mize: He falls.
Prabhupada: He falls down on
account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are
sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me.
Dr. John Mize: I wouldn't what?
Prabhupada: You may not like to
hear me.
Dr. John Mize: Yes.
Prabhupada: That independence you
have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is
always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, the, it is the duty of the
soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lord.
Dr. John Mize: Always engaged
in...?
Prabhupada: In the service of the
Lord.
Dr. John Mize: Service of the
Lord.
Prabhupada: Just like this finger
is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately
carrying out. I say, "Make it like this." He will, it will do. So... But this is
dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger
and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is
not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part. So therefore, as I am
directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a
friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when
the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life.
Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son's
duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when
the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material
world.
Dr. John Mize: It is puzzling to
me that one would be so foolish.
Prabhupada: Because by
independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of
independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in
the Bhagavad-gita, that yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Find out this verse
in the Eighteenth Chapter. That independence is there. After instructing the
whole Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna, Krsna gave him the independence, "Now whatever
you like, you can do." Krsna never forced him to accept the teachings of
Bhagavad-gita. He gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can
do." And he agreed. "Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say." The
same independence. Yes.
Bahulasva: This is in the
Eighteenth Chapter.
Dharmadhyaksa:
iti te jnanam
akhyatam
guhyad guhyataram
maya
vimrsyaitad
asesena
yathecchasi tatha
kuru
[Bg. 18.63]
"Thus I have explained to you the
most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what
you wish to do."
Prabhupada: Yes. Now if you say,
"Why the soul should become so foolish?" So that is misuse of independence.
Intelligent father has got intelligent son, but sometimes he becomes a fool. So
what is the reason? He is the part and parcel of the father. He should have
become exactly like the father. But he does not become like the father. I have
seen. In Allahabad was a big lawyer, barrister, Mr. Bannerjee. His eldest son
was also barrister and his youngest son, on account of bad association, he
became a ekala wala. Ekala means... In India there is a carriage drawn by one
horse. So he liked to be an ekala. That means he fell in love, a low class of
woman, and by her association, he became an ekala. There are many instances. The
Ajamila upakhyana. He was a brahmana and then he fell down very low. So this
misuse of independence is always there.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, in
our material contaminated state when we act in a foolishly or mad, then we call
that tamas, or our ignorance, but in the spiritual sky when the living entity is
in his pure state of consciousness, what acts..., Does something act upon him to
make him illusioned at that point also?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like
Jaya-Vijaya. They committed offense. They did not allow the four Kumaras to
enter. That was their fault. And the Kumaras became very sorry. Then they cursed
him that "You are not fit to remain in this place." So we sometimes commit
mistake. That is also misuse of independence. Or we are prone to fall down
because we are small. Just like small fragment of fire. Although it is fire, it
is prone to be extinguished. The big fire does not extinguish. So Krsna is the
big fire, and we are part and parcel, sparks, very small. So within the fire
there are sparks, "Fut, Fut!" There are so many. But if the sparks fall down,
then it is extinguished. It is like that. The fall down means material world,
there are three different grades: the tamo-guna, rajo-guna, and sattva-guna. If
the... Just like the spark falls down. If it falls down on dry grass, the grass
becomes ablazed. So the fiery quality is still maintained, although it is fall
down. On account of the atmosphere of the dry grass, it again makes another
fire, and the fiery quality maintains. That is sattva-guna. And if the spark
falls down on the green grass, then it is extinguished. And the dry grass, if,
when the green grass becomes dry, there is chance of again coming to the
blazing, but if the spark falls down in water, then it is very difficult.
Similarly, the soul, when comes in the material world, there are three gunas. So
if he contacts with tamo-guna then he is in the most abominable condition. If it
falls down with rajo-guna then there is little activity. Just like they are
working. And if he falls down in the sattva-guna, then he at least keeps himself
in the knowledge that "I am fire. I do not belong to this dull material." So
therefore we have to bring him again to the sattva-guna, brahminical
qualification, so that he can understand aham brahmasmi, "I am spirit soul. I am
not this matter." So then his spiritual activity begins. Therefore we are trying
to bring him to the platform of sattva-guna, means to give up the business of
rajo-guna, tamo-guna: no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no
gambling, so many no's, to deny him the influence of material qualities. Then,
if he is situated in the sattva-guna, then he remains on the platform of... When
he remains on the plat..., sattva-guna, then the rajas-tamah, the other base
qualities, cannot disturb him. The base quality, the platform of base quality is
this: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. So tada
rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. When one is free from at
least to these base qualities... Base quality means kama, lusty desires, and
greediness. In material world, generally, they are under these base quality,
means always filled up with lusty desires and not satisfied, greedy. So when we
conquer over these base qualities, then we become happy. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah
kama-lobhadayas ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham. When the consciousness is not
influenced by these base qualities, ceta etair ana..., sthitah sattve prasidati,
being situated on the platform of sattva-guna, he feels happy. That is the
beginning of spiritual life. When... So long the mind is disturbed by lusty
desires and greediness, there is no question of spiritual life. Therefore the
first business is how to control the mind so that it may not be influenced by
the base quality, lusty desires and greediness. We have seen in Paris old man,
seventy-five years old, he is going to the night club. Because the lusty desire
is there. He pays fifty dollars for entering the club, and then he pays further
for other things. So even he is seventy-five years old, the lusty desire is
there.
Dr. John Mize: Did all the souls
that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at
different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they're not
foolish, they don't fall down?
Prabhupada: No, there are...
Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down.
Dr. John Mize: So we're among the
10%.
Prabhupada: Yes. Or less than
that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are...
Just like in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not
majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house.
Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the
spiritual world. Only a few falls down.
Dr. John Mize: Does Krsna know
ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?
Prabhupada: Krsna? Yes, Krsna may
know because He is omniscient.
Dr. John Mize: Are more souls
falling all the time?
Prabhupada: Not all the time. But
there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is
independence... Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same
example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison
house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their
shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent
percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will
be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the
criminal? You are constructing..." Government knows, there will be criminal. So
if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is
tendency.
Dr. John Mize: The origin of that
tendency is...?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. John Mize: From where does
that tendency come?
Prabhupada: Tendency means the
independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it
properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only,
that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force.
Therefore Krsna says, yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. "Now you do whatever
you like."
Jayatirtha: Because Krsna is
independent, therefore the part and parcels...
Prabhupada: Yes. Part and parcel
must have a little portion of independence. Qualitatively, part and parcel
means... Just like you take a drop of water from the sea. The, all the chemical
composition is there in the drop. So Krsna is fully independent. So we living
entities we are drop. Still, the independence quality is there in minute
quantity.
Dr. John Mize: But Krsna has no
tendency to fall, whereas we do.
Prabhupada: No. Because Krsna is
God. Therefore He is all good. Even He falls down, to our estimation, it is not
fall down. [break] ...cannot judge God. If we are devotee, in all circumstances
we shall glorify God, "You are all-good." That is devotee. You cannot criticize
God, "Oh, You are doing such thing," no.
Dr. John Mize: I'm still puzzled
about the relationship of the soul to God. If the soul is eternal, as God is,
and yet some souls have the tendency to fall and others don't have that
tendency...
Prabhupada: No, no, eternal does
not mean not fall. Suppose you are now professor. So you can fall down from your
position. But that does not mean you are not eternal. If you are fall down from
your position, you do not lose your eternity. You simply fall down. You can
become a professor; you can become an ordinary man. But you are eternal in all
circumstance. Eternal... Fall down does not mean that he loses his eternal. That
is stated that na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Find out. Ajo nityah
sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Na jayate na mriyate va
kadacit. The living entity is never born or it never dies. This is eternity. You
change your body, but you eternal.
Dr. John Mize: It's so puzzling,
though, why I would spend eternity...
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore he
requires that sattva-guna qualification.
Dr. John Mize: The what
qualification?
Prabhupada: That sattva-guna,
goodness.
Dr. John Mize: I'm sorry...
Prabhupada: Goodness.
Dr. John Mize: Goodness?
Bahulasva: The mode of goodness.
Prabhupada: Mode of goodness. Just
like not that everyone can become a philosophy professor. It requires certain
qualification. But everyone can become also. Everyone got the chance. Provided
he is qualified, then he can take the post of a philosophy professor. Everyone
has got the chance, not that you have got only the chance. Anyone has got the
chance. But not that without having a certain qualification, one can become.
Similarly, these thing will remain puzzling unless one comes to the
qualification of goodness. Therefore we order our disciples, "Come to the
platform of goodness. Give up all this nonsense habit." Then it will be
possible.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Let him ask. (pause)
Tato rajas-tamo-bhavah [SB 1.2.19]. Nasta-prayesv abhadresu [SB 1.2.18]. In the
Srimad-Bhagavatam you find out this verse, First Canto. Nasta-prayesv abhadresu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya. So abhadresu, prayesu. We are now covered with base
qualities. So when these base qualities are finished, not altogether, almost
finished, then one can come to the platform of sattva-guna.
Dr. John Mize: The platform of...?
Prabhupada: Sattva-guna, goodness.
In that platform one can understand very quickly. This Krsna consciousness
movement is little successful because we are trying to bring the students on the
platform of goodness. Therefore it is becoming little successful. If you keep
them in the platform of ignorance and passion, then it will be difficult.
Dharmadhyaksa:
nasta-prayesv
abhadresu
nityam
bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty
uttama-sloke
bhaktir bhavati
naisthiki
[SB 1.2.18]
Translation: By regular attendance
in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee,
all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving
service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental
songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.
Purport: Here is the remedy for
eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be
obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the
Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the
devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them
or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee
Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads
his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of
information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also
Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical.
The devotee Bhagavata is a direct
representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the
devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human
reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book
Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these
are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son
in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the
sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating
with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of
the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila
Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas.
And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such
sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental
knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional
service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the
guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental
loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have
to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two
Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on.
Prabhupada: So we are giving this
chance to everyone, devotee Bhagavata and grantha-Bhagavata, to get them raised
from the lower condition of life. Kama-lobha, lusty desires or greediness. This
is the process. And practically you can see all these young men. They have no
more lusty desires or greediness. They are also young men. They never ask
permission from me any time, "Now, today, I want to go to the cinema." They have
got all the monies in their hand. They never misspend without my permission.
They are also young men, born in the western countries, addicted to so many bad
habits. But they have given up. This is practical. Professor Judah has written
me letter. You know him?
Dr. John Mize: No, I do not.
Prabhupada: That "I am simply
amazed how you have converted drug-addicted hippies to become servant of Krsna
and the humanity." That is his puzzling. But the method is so nice that it
automatically becomes. Therefore we are stressing on the method.
Dharmadhyaksa: In other words,
Srila Prabhupada, without practice of the method, it's very difficult to
understand the philosophical concepts.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.
Therefore it is said that without becoming a brahmana, nobody should touch
Vedas. That is a... Without becoming brahmana...
janmana jayate
sudrah
sanskarad bhaved
dvijah
veda-pathad bhaved
vipro
brahma janatiti
brahmanah
These are the different stages.
Everyone is born sudra. Sudra means the life of lamentation. He does something
and laments. This is sudra. He does not know how to perform, but by whims he
does something and laments later on. This is sudra. And brahmana means na socati
na kanksati. He never laments, neither hankers. That is brahmana. Brahma-bhutah
prasannatma na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu [Bg. 18.54]. Find out
this verse, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati.
Jayatirtha: 18.54. I should read?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha:
brahma-bhutah
prasannatma
na socati na
kanksati
samah sarvesu
bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate
param
[Bg. 18.54]
"One who is thus transcendentally
situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to
have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he
attains pure devotional service unto Me."
Prabhupada: That means one has to
come to the platform of brahmana. Then he can enter into devotional service.
Samah sarvesu bhutesu mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. In that brahminical
state he sees every living entity as part and parcel of God. That is samah,
equality. He does not see like this, that the human being has soul and the cow
has not soul. He does not see like that. He sees the cow has soul, the ant has
soul, the elephant has soul, the tree has soul, the human being has soul. That
is samah sarvesu bhutesu. By ignorance he thinks that "The tree has no soul; the
cow has no soul; the animal has no soul; simply we have got soul." That is
ignorance, base quality. But when you come to the pureness of goodness, samah
sarvesu bhutesu, this qualification will arise. So a devotee is not willing to
kill even an ant because he knows that "He is also soul, part and parcel. By his
karma, he has become ant, I have become a human being. So I am the same soul; he
is the same soul. He is different body. He is suffering in that way. I have got
different body. I am also suffering, but I am thinking I am enjoying." That is
samah sarvesu bhutesu. What is the meaning, samah sarvesu bhutesu?
Jayatirtha: Samah means equally
disposed; sarvesu means all; bhutesu means living entity. "He is equally
disposed to every living entity."
Prabhupada: So we can see on equal
level when (sic:) you become a brahmana. Brahma-bhutah, not in the United
Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside, because they have no
vision, samah sarvesu bhutesu. So the politicians should be guided by the
brahmanas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the
spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should
take instruction from the brahmanas and take part in politics. Then they will be
also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all
elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon
president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not
know who to elect because you are not guided by brahmanas. This is the fault.
The whole society is being guided by the mle..., sudras and some portion
vaisyas. Mostly sudras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no ksatriya,
no brahmana. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be
four divisions. Find out this verse, catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13].
Jayatirtha: 4.13.
catur-varnyam maya
srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api
mam
viddhy akartaram
avyayam
[Bg. 4.13]
"According to the three modes of
material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human
society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you
should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."
Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna created
these four division, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, but He does not belong
to any one of them. He is neither brahmana nor ksatriya nor vaisya nor sudra. He
is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy -- just to make the human society
very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A
first-class man, group of men, brahmanas, they will guide the ksatriyas, and the
ksatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaisya. Vaisya means
agriculture and cow protection and trade. And sudra means those who are neither
brahmana nor ksatriya nor vaisyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there
must be division like this. The brahmanas should guide the ksatriyas, and the
ksatriyas will administer the state, and the vaisyas will produce foodstuff, and
sudras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual
realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is sudra, without any aim of
life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much
facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all
purposes. Why? I have gone to so many universities. I have seen the students,
hippies. And if you say that "If you act like cats and dogs, you will become dog
next life," they say, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" (laughter) This is
education. He is prepared to become a dog. He does not know what is the
distinction between dog and human being. He is seeking after the dog's facility
that he can have sex on the street. He is thinking the dog life is advantageous.
This is the position. Therefore Professor Judah has written me this letter, that
"I am simply surprised how you have converted the drug-addicted hippies into
servant of Krsna and the humanity." This is his words.
Dr. John Mize: May I ask you
another question?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. John Mize: The relationship of
mind to the soul, how the mind comes to know that it has or that there is a
soul.
Prabhupada: By taking lesson from
professors who has mind clear. Why the students are coming to you? Because his
mind is not clear. You have to clear his mind by teaching him psychology,
feeling, thinking, feeling, willing. Therefore he has to come to a learned man
who knows how to understand mind, how to understand the activities of the mind,
how to deal with them. That requires education. A dog cannot take this
education, but a human being can take. Therefore it is the duty of the human
being, how to control the mind, not act like cats and dogs. That is human being.
He should be inquisitive, "Why this happening? Why this happening?" and he
should take education. That is human life. And if he does not inquire, if he
does not take education, then what is the difference between him and the dog? He
remains a dog. He has got this opportunity of human life. He should take
advantage of understanding what is what, not to keep himself in the dog status,
simply eating, sleeping, sex life, and defending. That is the distinction
between dog and human being. If he does not become inquisitive how to control
the mind, he is not even a human being. A dog never inquires. A dog knows that
"When I bark, people become disturbed." He'll never ask, "How to control this
barking habit?" Because he is dog, he cannot do that. A human being can know
that "People hates me. I do something wrong. How to control my mind?" That is
human being. That is the difference between human being and dog. Therefore Vedic
injunction is "Go and inquire. You have got this human form of life." Athato
brahma jijnasa: "Now, this is the time for inquiring about the soul." Tad
vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If you want to understand
this science, then go to proper guru and take lessons from him. The same thing,
as we instruct our children: "If you want to be educated in higher status of
life, go to school, go to college, take lesson." That is human society. The
dog's father will never ask the dog child, "Go to school." No. They are dogs.
Jayatirtha: The universities
nowadays don't teach any courses in the nature of the soul.
Prabhupada: Therefore he says,
"What is the wrong if I become a dog?" Because there is no education. He does
not know the difference between dog and the human being. Therefore he says that
"What is the wrong if I become a dog? I will get more facility for sex without
any criminal charges." This is the advancement of education.
Dr. John Mize: How does the mind,
then, come to know that there is a soul?
Prabhupada: That I say, that you
have to educated. How these people are convinced about the soul? They have been
educated by practice and by knowledge. Everything has to be learned by being
educated. And therefore the Vedic injunction is tad-vijnanartham, "In order to
know that science," gurum eva abhigacchet, "you must go to guru, teacher." So
the answer is that you must go to the teacher who can teach you how the soul is
there.
Bahulasva: Prabhupada, the
professor asked what is the relationship with the soul and the mind?
Prabhupada: Mind is there in the
soul, but the mind is now polluted by material contamination. Just like a
madman. He has got his mind, but his mind is contaminated. Therefore he requires
treatment by psychiatrist. You cannot say the madman has no mind. He has got
mind, but it is contaminated. You have to make treatment. So mind is there.
Everything is there in the soul. And now the mind, contaminated by the matter,
it is perverted. The same example: A madman has got mind, but it is useless. He
is simply acting in madness. The same madman, when properly treated, he will act
like a sane man. So mind is there always, in the pure soul or in the material
body. Everything is spiritual. The soul is spiritual; the mind is spiritual; the
intelligence is spiritual. But it is now contaminated. So you have to make
treatment. When it is purified, Krsna consciousness, then mind is controlled,
intelligence properly acting, and soul is in his proper position. Therefore
those who are under treatment, they must be strict observation -- he may not do
something wrong so that treatment may be hampered.
Jayatirtha: Philosophers generally
try to use their mind to speculate about the nature of the soul. But with the
mind they can never understand...
Prabhupada: Just like the madman
is speculating. He is thinking, "I am president. Bas, finished." He is lying
down on the street, "Oh, I am completely independent. Why shall I go on the foot
path?"
John Mize: When the soul was in
the spiritual sky, it also had a mind and an intelligence like here?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes. Unless
he has got mind, how he misuses intelligence?
John Mize: But he misused that
intelligence in his freedom, his independence.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Mind is
there also. That is spiritual mind. Everything is spiritual. There is nothing
material. Body spiritual, mind spiritual, intelligence spiritual, he is
spiritual, the land spiritual, water spiritual -- everything is spiritual. That
is spiritual world. Here in the material world, except the spirit soul,
everything is material. And he is encumbered with this material atmosphere by
twenty-seven stratas, layers. The five elements, gross elements, then ten
senses, and then three gunas... In this way there are twenty-seven layers. He is
within, and he has to be taken out. That is called liberation. Just like if you
are covered with twenty-seven layers of dirty things, so it is very difficult
position. But there is process to clear the garbage and take him out. That is
Krsna conscious movement, to take the soul out of the covering of twenty-seven
layers of material atmosphere. That sloka is nasta-prayesu abhadresu: "almost
cleansed." Abhadra, abhadra means dirty things. So this clearing process going
on. When it is almost cleansed the man feels, "Oh..." And that process: nityam
bhagavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18], constantly being engaged in the service of
Bhagavata, grantha-Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata. Then it will be cleansed.
And then, when he comes out, that is brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54], "Oh,
I am now free." Na socati na..., no more lamentation, no more greediness.
Everything finished. Then he begins his real business as part and parcel of God.
That is perfection.
Bahulasva: Prabhupada, in the
Thirteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita, "Nature, Enjoyer, and Consciousness," in
verse number six and seven you mention those twenty-seven coverings: "The five
great elements, false ego, intelligence, the unmanifest, the ten senses, the
mind, the five sense objects, desire, hate, happiness, and distress, the
aggregate, the life symptoms and convictions -- all these are considered, in
summary, to be the field of activities and their interaction." And...
Prabhupada: By the material life,
these are our field of activities. The body is a combination of all these
things. Just like a huge computer machine. It is made of these material things,
but the mechanical parts are very minute, different. All these are matter. But
within this matter, because the soul is there, therefore the finest machine is
working. Just like your composition machine, (imitates machine:) "Kut, kut, kut,
kut, kut, kut." But one has to push the button; otherwise useless. However very
nicely made the machine, without a living being's touch, it is useless. So all
this big machine, body, is wonderful so long the soul is there.
>>> Ref. VedaBase
=> Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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