Prabhupada: ...is that
at the ultimate issue, God is person. (hammering sound in background) Stop that
tok, tok.Hrdayananda: He's stopping it now.Srutakirti:
banging...Prabhupada: Just like this sun, the sunshine, the sun globe, and
within the sun globe. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll find, the Fourth Chapter, the
person sun, whose name is Vivasvan, he was instructed by Krsna. Imam vivasvate
yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. You are a Sanskrit
scholar.Professor: No, I'm afraid not.Dharmadhyaksa: That was the
gentleman whose works he translated. In other words, the gentleman that he
worked for was the Sanskrit scholar.Prabhupada: I see. So... Oh, you have no
seat? They are giving him? All right. So from Bhagavad-gita we understand that
Bha... Just like in this planet we are so many persons, or the President Nixon
is the President. Similarly, in every planet there are living entities, and the
President of the sun planet is called Vivasvan. So he was instructed by Krsna
long, long ago. In the higher planetary system, the time is different. That was
proved when the Russian aeronautics were on the sky. In one hour twenty-five
minutes, he went round the earth, twice or thrice, like that. So time is
different. So the point is... Just like the sunshine is impersonal, the sun is
localized, and the president of the sun globe is a person, similarly, the
Absolute Truth is realized in three phases. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti
sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The first realization is impersonal, then localized, and
then personal. So ultimately, God is person. And that is Krsna. So we are
hearing directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead about Godhead, and that
is perfect knowledge. If you speak yourself about yourself, that is my perfect
knowledge of yourself. And if I simply speculate that "Professor may be like
this, like that," that is not perfect. I am speculating, but if you come to me,
"Swamiji, I am like this," then my knowledge is perfect. Otherwise, I can go on
speculating for millions of years. Still, my knowledge is imperfect. So we
cannot manufacture God; neither we can speculate. That is not possible. But you
can get some idea, but there is no possibility of getting perfect knowledge of
God. God is unlimited. I am limited. So my speculative knowledge is limited. So
how I can understand the unlimited by my limited knowledge? That is not
possible. We can make little progress, and that is impersonal understanding. The
perfect understanding is that He is person, all-powerful, all-mighty, all
beautiful, all-wise, all..., everything perfect, six opulences: riches,
strength, influence, beauty, knowledge and renouncement. These are the six
opulences. And God is complete. This is conception of God.Professor: For me,
and I suppose, for so many others, the difficulty is getting from the
intellectual willingness to accept the notion of God and even to get beyond a
kind of fleeting intuition from time to time that there is something beyond the
humanistic world conception to a real inner understanding of that reality. And I
suppose that is what your work is all about, to...Prabhupada: Yes. God is...
God is beyond our intellectual platform. (door opens) Come on. Hare Krsna. So
Professor, give him some seat. He'll stand?Srutakirti: I sent someone out
for a chair, but he hasn't found one.Prabhupada: And what is that? Good
morning. Hare Krsna. There are three stages. First stage of understanding is
direct perception, by senses. Indriyani parany ahuh. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll
find. Here, from the material platform, our source of knowledge is direct
perception. That is crude, pratyaksa. It is called pratyaksa. That is crude
knowledge, direct perception. Just like I am seeing the sun. I am getting some
idea of the sun, but that is not the perfect idea, although I am seeing it
daily. I am seeing just like a disc, but it is very, very big. So my direct
perception cannot give me perfect knowledge. The first... Besides that, at our
present stage, material condition, we are imperfect because we commit mistake.
By direct seeing the sun, I am thinking that it is just like a disc. Then we are
illusioned. We, sometimes we accept something for something. Then, with this
imperfect knowledge, we try to become teacher. That is cheating. And at the end,
our senses are imperfect. So with so many imperfectness, how we can get perfect
knowledge? What is your answer?Professor: I have no answer.Prabhupada:
Yes. Therefore, our speculative knowledge, intellectual platform, is not
helpful. We must receive knowledge from superior source, perfect source. That
knowledge is perfect. Just like we give, generally this example, that to find
out who is my father, my search out, research, will not help me, but if my
mother says, "Here is your father," that is perfect knowledge because she's
authority. Therefore, for perfect knowledge, we have to take it from the perfect
authority, not by our speculative intellectual gymnasium. No, that will not
help. Because our intellectual jurisdiction is very limited. That is Vedic
process. Vedic process is not to acquire knowledge by ascending process,
inductive process. Vedic knowledge is to receive knowledge by descending
process, knowledge coming from authority. That, that you will find in the
Bhagavad-gita, Fourth Chapter: evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg.
4.2]. Knowledge has to be received... Just like a child receives knowledge... He
is inquisitive: "Mother, what is this? Father, what is this?" And mother informs
him, "My dear child, this is is. This is this." So he is acquiring knowledge by
descending process. And if the child wants to get knowledge independently, that
is not knowledge. He'll touch the fire. Mother: "Don't touch, don't touch, my
dear child!" But he does not know. He's thinking the fire as something eatable.
So by the Vedic process, this experimental knowledge is no useful. Yes. The
Vedic injunction is tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "In
order to receive perfect knowledge, you must have approach the guru." Guru means
who has the perfect knowledge. So you cannot independently get perfect
knowledge, intellectual. That will remain always imperfect. So intellectually,
how you can conceive about God, who is unlimited, beyond your sense perception?
We cannot know even ordinary material things, how great the sun is, how this
universe is. We have imperfect knowledge. So our process is to receive knowledge
from the perfect. Therefore, we are receiving knowledge from Krsna, the supreme
perfect. I am not perfect, but because I am receiving knowledge from the supreme
perfect, therefore whatever I say, it is perfect. And that is guru. Guru does
not say anything of his own manufacture or research. He says only what he has
heard from the Supreme. That's all. So it is easier. It is easier. If the child
says, "A watch, a watch," the child may be imperfect, but he has heard from his
father, Here is a watch." That knowledge is perfect. This is our process. And
Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. Veda, this word, Sanskrit word,
it means perfect knowledge. Otherwise, there is no way to have perfect
knowledge. There must be some source of perfect knowledge. That is Veda. For
example, we... Just like cow dung. Cow dung is the stool of an animal. So in the
Vedic principle, if you touch the stool of an animal, even your own stool, you
become impure, you have to take bath. But the Vedas says, "The stool of cow is
pure." And we accept that because Vedic injunction. And if you analyze, it is
full of antiseptic properties, although it is stool. So by argument, one will
say, "How is that? Sometimes you say that stool is impure, and again you say
this stool is pure." But that is fact. Similarly, if we accept Vedic injunction,
we save so much time for so-called research work. That is the standard
knowledge. So every knowledge is there in the Vedas. There are so many Vedas.
Even for our ordinary dealings, just like Ayur-veda. Ayur-veda means medical
science. Similarly, Dhanur-veda, military science. Similarly, Jyotir-veda,
jyotis, the astronomical science. And those who are, mean, accustomed with Vedic
knowledge, it is so nice and, I mean to say, perfect that... Take, for example,
that Ayur-veda, medical science. Their process is that this body, the
physiological condition, is depending on three things, tri-dhatu,
kapha-pitta-vayu: mucus, bile and air. And the air is felt by the pulse beating.
So they learn how to examine the pulse beating, the heart beating. And they have
got description. Just like the sparrow walks, the crow walks, so in this way
they have given the example, "If the pulse is beating like the walking of the
sparrow, walking of the crow, then his health, his condition, is like this, and
the symptoms will be like this." So the physician first of all studies the
pulses, and he remembers the symptoms, and he corroborates, asking the patient,
"Do you feel like this? Do you feel like this? Do you do this, like this?" If it
is corroborated, then his diagnosis is given: "He has got this disease." So
similarly, in Jyotir-veda they have got similar symptoms: "If such and such
stars are now nearer to this star" -- they have got this calculation -- "then
the position is this." So they learn very quickly. Indian brahmanas, they
learned Jyotir-veda, Ayur-veda, very quickly. Because brahmanas they are meant
to go to every house to inform the date, the everything. So generally people are
inquisitive about the health. So they ask, "Now I am feeling like this." So they
give medicine. And they give some astrological hint also. So in this way people
gave them some contribution. That is their livelihood. So this... All the
systems were made very easy on account of this Vedic injunction. So therefore we
take Vedic knowledge as perfect, and we understand everything by Vedic knowledge
about God, about His place, about His activities. And God comes as incarnation.
He sends His representative. Then it is corroborated. And that is perfect
knowledge of God. Krsna's, God's feature -- everything is described in the
Vedas: Brahma-samhita, Yajur-veda, Sama-veda, like that. And when Krsna
descends, He practically demonstrates all the symptoms of God. So then we accept
God. And it is confirmed by authorities. Just like Krsna. Krsna Himself says
that "I am the Supreme." Arjuna accepts, the direct listener from God. And later
on, the acaryas, big, big acaryas, who control the society, just Sankaracarya,
Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, they accept. Latest, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He
accepts. So our guru-parampara all accepts Krsna. And Krsna describes Himself.
So where is the difficulty to understand God? The symptoms are there in the
sastras. And those symptoms are visible in Krsna. Just like everyone can
understand, "God is all powerful." So Krsna showed that He is all powerful. So
there is no difficulty to understand. So our method is easy. Instead of
intellectual gymnastic, we take it very easily. And that acts. Now, so far our
Society is concerned, we accept Krsna as God. We're preaching Krsna as God. So
we have no difficulty. It is acting practically. So we... I may be Indian,
Hindu, I may accept Krsna as God. Maybe superstition, you may say. But why these
European, Americans, Africans, they are accepting? And within very short time.
Even Christian priests, they are astonished that "These boys, our boys, they did
not care for God, never came to church, never inquired about God. Now they are
mad after God?" They have not become mad. They are quite sane, educated. But why
they are accepting Krsna as God? Ask any one of them, they'll give explanation.
And how it has become possible? Because they have accepted the method. So our
guru's business is to teach him the method. Then he will understand everything.
So far vegetable-eating is concerned, it is actually very scientific to eat
vegetables. I think some German doctor proved it, that our teeth are meant for
eating vegetables. So as devotee of Krsna, we are not after accepting a
vegetarian and rejecting a nonvegetarian. That is not our criterion. God is open
for vegetarian and nonvegetarian, both. But once he becomes, I mean, a devotee
of God, automatically he becomes vegetarian. So we don't make any propaganda to
make one vegetarian. We make propaganda to make one devotee of God. One, if one
becomes devotee of God, automatically all good qualities will come. That is the
test. How one has become devotee of God, it will be tested that he is qualified
with all good qualities. You cannot find fault with him. That is God
consciousness. A God conscious person having a bad character, it is
incompatible. It is not possible. A God conscious person must be a very good
man. A God conscious man cannot kill any animal because he knows the
relationship that "This animal is as good as I am. He is also part and parcel of
God, as I am. But fortunately or unfortunately, he has got a different dress."
That you will find in the Bhagavad-gita, vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg.
2.22]. So you are gentlemen. You have got a different dress. I have got a
different dress. He has got a different dress. That does not mean we are not
human being because we have got a different dress. Similarly, all living
entities -- there are eight-million, four hundred thousands forms -- they are
all sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita. So they have got
different dresses only. But because they have got different dresses, they are
not different from me. This is God consciousness. So therefore, when one is God
conscious, how he can kill another animal? He knows that "If I am killed, I feel
pains and pleasure, pains, then why shall I kill him? And he's also son of God.
I am also son of God. So God, how He can allow to kill another son?" Suppose a
father has got ten sons. One is useless, cannot earn anything. If the earning
son says, "Father, he is useless, let him... Let me kill him," the father will
agree? No. Father is kind to everyone. So similarly, when one is God conscious,
if he kills animal, that means he has no sense of God consciousness. He has no
sense of God. That is the test. So our propaganda is that you make people God
conscious. Then all good qualities will come. Instead of trying to qualify man
in so many ways -- "You don't become thief, you don't become murderer, you don't
become this, don't become this, don't become intoxicant" -- simply by becoming
Krsna conscious, he becomes everything, by one stroke. That is our propaganda,
that if one becomes God conscious, then he is becoming perfect, not necessarily,
materially and spiritually, both. And that is happening practically. Now these
boys, these girls, they are Europeans, Americans. They were accustomed to so
many bad habits and according to our standard, and now they have given up. They
have no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication, even up to
smoking or drinking tea. Yes. We don't allow our students... Not allow. They
become accustomed. Once I say, "Don't do this," they agree. They agree
immediately. Intoxication. There were many students, they were habituated to
this nowadays intoxican... Immediately gave up. And your government is making so
much propaganda to give up this intoxication. They are failure. So a little God
consciousness helps so much. And what to speak of when one is perfectly God
conscious? Then he's perfect man. Therefore a devotee is not of this material
world. He's in the spiritual world. He's above this material world. Sa gunan
samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Find out this
verse.Devotee: Is that in Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].
Devotee: Hrdayananda.
Hrdayananda: Jaya.
Prabhupada: Read it.
Hrdayananda:
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
"One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in
any circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus
comes to the level of Brahman."
Prabhupada: Yes. To come to the level of Brahman, aham brahmasmi, means
he's above the control of these modes of material nature. Material dicta...,
material nature dictates, "Now you are, your tongue is dry. Just take one cup of
tea, or smoke." (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Latin Professor -- December 9, 1973, Los
Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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