Allen Ginsberg: Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Allen Ginsberg: So, we will sing tomorrow.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs)
Allen Ginsberg: Is this your first visit here?
Prabhupada: The first visit, yes.
Allen Ginsberg: You have the whole house.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are doing very nice. (indistinct) We
have some meeting in the university, kirtana. Our..., wherever we go kirtana and
speaking. You have seen our book, Lord Caitanya's Teaching?
Allen Ginsberg: No. I haven't seen that. That's new.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: Is that...? Er, ISKCON published.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: So, you did... You..., printed where?
Prabhupada: Japan.
Allen Ginsberg: Pardon me?
Prabhupada: Japan.
Allen Ginsberg: Printed in Japan.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: Beautiful. It's very industrious. It's
marvelous.
Prabhupada: Next book is coming, Nectar of Devotion.
Allen Ginsberg: What will that be, your own writings?
Prabhupada: No, it is the authorized translation of Rupa
Gosvami's book, Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu.
Allen Ginsberg: Whose...?
Prabhupada: Rupa Gosvami, Lord Caitanya's principal
disciple.
Allen Ginsberg: Uhuh.
Prabhupada: Rupa Gosvami. There are six Gosvamis, direct
disciples of Lord Caitanya. Er, not, six Gosvamis and three other
confidential.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So, our... About the six Gosvamis, Rupa Gosvami
is the principal.
Allen Ginsberg: Rupa Gos...
Prabhupada: Rupa Gosvami. He was finance minister in the
government of Nawab Hussain Shah in Bengal. But when Lord Caitanya started His
movement, he was captivated and he resigned his service, government service and
joined Him. And he wrote immense literature, Gosvamis. And that Desai was
talking that Narottama dasa Thakura, he says, rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti
kabe hama bujhaba se yugala-piriti: conjugal love of Radha and Krsna, one can
understand when they go through the literatures presented by these Gosvamis. So
his first book is Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Devotion of, Nectar of Devotion. That
is very authorized book. Quotation from various Vedic literature about
Radha-Krsna and the different stages of relationship with Krsna, santa-rasa,
dasya-rasa, admiration. God is Great. This is also one stage, appreciating the
greatness of God. Then further development, dasya-rasa, willing to serve. Oh!
God is so great, and I must serve service because everyone of us are serving
somebody. So why not serve the Supreme? Nobody is free from service because we
are constitutionally the servant. Either we become the servant of the Great or
maya. Just like in any condition of our lives, we have to abide by the laws of
the state. If he says that we don't abide then come to prisonhouse. You will be
forced. Similarly, maya and Krsna. If we don't abide by Krsna, then come to
maya. He cannot be free. That is not our position. Freedom is frustration.
Allen Ginsberg: Do you remember a man named Richard
Alpert?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Allen Ginsberg: Do you remember of a man named Richard
Alpert? He used to work with Timothy Leary.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Allen Ginsberg: In Harvard many years ago. And then he went
to India and found a teacher, and is now a disciple of Hanumanji or a devotee of
Hanuman. And he said that, we were talking about maya and the present condition
of America...
Prabhupada: Have some fruits?
Allen Ginsberg: In a while. Well, we can talk as...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Allen Ginsberg: Bite your food. I have that question I wanted
to asked. Are you tired?
Prabhupada: No, no. I can talk with you whole night.
(laughter)
Allen Ginsberg: So he said that his teacher in India told him
that LSD was a Christ of the Kali-yuga for Westerners.
Prabhupada: Christ?
Allen Ginsberg: of the Kali-yuga for Westerners in that, as
the Kali-yuga got more intense, as attachment got thicker and thicker, that also
salvation would have to be easier and easier, and that...
Prabhupada: (aside:) (Bengali)
Allen Ginsberg: Namaste. (to Indian lady)
Prabhupada: She is a Bengali lady recently come from
London.
Allen Ginsberg: Ahh!
Prabhupada: Lekha. (Bengali)
Indian Lady: (Bengali)
Prabhupada: (Bengali)
Allen Ginsberg: So, as the Kali-yuga became more intense and
as attachment became deeper and more confusing...
Prabhupada: Attachment for?
Allen Ginsberg: ...that salvation would also have to become
easier and easier in the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupada: That is very nice statement that in the Kali-yuga
salvation is very easier. That is the version of Srimad-Bhagavatam also, but
that process is this kirtana, not LSD.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, it was... The reasoning there, was that
for those who would only accept salvation in purely material form, in chemical
form finally, and completely material form...
Prabhupada: Hmm. So where is the salvation when there
is...
Allen Ginsberg: ...that Krsna had the humor to emerge as a
pill.
Prabhupada: No, the thing is that any of these material
forms...
Allen Ginsberg: Yes?
Prabhupada: ...then where it is salvation? It is
illusion.
Allen Ginsberg: Well the subjective effect is to cut...
Prabhupada: No.
Allen Ginsberg: ...attachment during the...
Prabhupada: Well, if you have got attachments for something
material, then where is the cut-off attachment. LSD is a material
chemical.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So if you have to take shelter of LSD then you
take, I mean to say, help from the matters, so that is... How you can... How you
are free from matter?
Allen Ginsberg: Well, the subjective experience is, while in
the state of intoxication of LSD, also realizing that LSD is a material pill,
and that it does not really matter.
Prabhupada: So that is risky. That is risky.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Now so, if LSD is a material
attachment, which it is I think, then is not the sound, sabda, also a material
attachment?
Prabhupada: No, sabda is spiritual. Originally just like in
Bible there is, "Let there be creation." This sound, this spiritual sound.
Creation. Creation was not there. The sound produced the creation. Therefore,
sound is originally spiritual and through the sound; sound -- from sound, sky
develops; from sky, air develop; from air, fire develop; fire, water develop;
from water, land develop.
Allen Ginsberg: Sound is the first element of creation?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Allen Ginsberg: What was the first sound,
traditionally?
Prabhupada: Vedic states, Om. So at least we can understand
from your Bible, that God said, "Let there be creation." So this is sound, and
there is creation. God and His sound is non-different, absolute. I say, "Mr.
Ginsberg," this sound and I, a little difference, but God is non-different from
His energy, nitya... How it is called? Sakti saktimator abhedhah. Sakti, energy
and sakti-mat, the energetic. They are non-different. Just like fire and heat,
they are non-different, but heat is not fire. You can not differentiate heat
from fire, or fire from heat. But fire is not heat.
Allen Ginsberg: Well the sounds, the sound krsna...
Prabhupada: Yes, is non-different from Krsna.
Allen Ginsberg: ...is not different from Krsna.
Prabhupada: No. Therefore, this sound krsna...
Allen Ginsberg: Under all circumstances?
Prabhupada: Yes, all, all circumstances, but it is the
question of my appreciation, or my realization. That will depend on my purity.
Otherwise this Krsna sound and Krsna, non-different. Therefore if we vibrate
sound Krsna, then I am immediately in contact with Krsna, and if Krsna is whole
spirit, then immediately I become spiritualized. Just like if you touch
electricity, immediately you're electrified. And the more you become
electrified, more you become Krsnized. Krsnized. So when you are fully Krsnized,
then you are in the Krsna platform. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti
kaunteya [Bg. 4.9], then fully Krsnized, no more comes back to this material
existence. He remains with Krsna. The impersonalists shall say merging. That is
less intelligence. Merging does not mean losing individuality. Just like a green
bird enters a green tree; it appears merging, but the bird has not lost his
individuality. There is individuality. Similarly Krsna says in the Fourth
Chapter, no, Second Chapter that I, you, Arjuna, I and all these people who
have assembled; it is not that they did not exist previously neither it is that
they'll not exist. That means I, you, and all these persons, they were
individual in the past. At the present we see it practically, and in future
they'll remain individuals. And individually we are that, in our present
existence, everyone of us individual. You have got your individual views, I have
got my individual views. We agree on common platform, that is different thing,
but we are individual. That is our nature. Therefore there is disagreement
sometimes. So the individuality is never lost. But our proposition,
bhakti-marga, is to keep individuality and agree with you.
Allen Ginsberg: To keep...?
Prabhupada: And agree with you. Our surrender means we agree
with Krsna in everything, although we are individual. If Krsna says you have to
die, we die; out of love. But we are individual, I can deny "Why shall I die?"
That reality I have got. Just like Arjuna was asked, "Now I have taught you
Bhagavad-gita, now whatever you like you do," yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg.
18.63], "as you like." He doesn't touch the individuality. But Arjuna
voluntarily surrendered: "Yes," karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73], "yes, I shall
do whatever You ask." He changed his decision. He decided not to fight, but he
agreed, "Yes," karisye vacanam tava. This agreement, this is oneness. Not
oneness does not mean mix up homogeneously. No, He keeps his individuality.
Krsna keeps his individuality, yathecchasi tatha kuru: "Now whatever you like
you do." He says, "Yes," karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73], "I shall do what you
say." So this is oneness. Not to lose individuality. Because we cannot lose our
individuality. We are individually made originally. Krsna is individual, we are
individual, everyone is individual. Merging means merging in that total
agreement. That is liberation. Total agreement without any disagreement. And
that is the perfection: to keep individuality and agree with God in total
agreement. That is perfection. And imperfection so long we are in rebelled
condition that is material because one who has a slightest desire of
disagreement with Krsna, he cannot live there. There the only predominant figure
is Krsna. So one who is trained fully to agree with Krsna, they are accepted as
associates. Bhagavad-gita says, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam pradadyate:
[Bg. 7.19] after many, many births of cultivating knowledge in spiritual life, a
fully conversant, wise person surrenders unto Me. Bahunam janmanam ante: after
many, many births. How he surrenders? Vasudevah sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] oh! Krsna
is everything. The Vedanta-sutra gives hint, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], what
is Brahma, what is supreme? Athato brahma jijnasa, to inquire about Brahman, the
Supreme. The answer is Brahman is that or He who is the original source of
everything. We have to find out who is the original source, so that requires
wisdom. So when one is perfectly wise after many, many births, cultured, he
sees, "Ah, here is the original, Krsna," vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma
sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19], that mahatma, great soul, is very rare to be seen, who
has surrendered. So our... We are giving the shortcut process: what one has to
attain after many, many births, we are simply saying is surrender to Krsna. This
is Krsna consciousness. That's all. This is the greatest boon or, what is
called, greatest reward or contribution to the human society. And if actually
one is wise, then he'll take our word that if one has to come to this point
after many, many births, that Krsna is everything, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg.
7.19], to understand, why not accept it immediately?
Allen Ginsberg: Do you take rebirth in human form
literally?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: As a...
Prabhupada: What is the difficulty?
Allen Ginsberg: I just don't remember having been born
before.
Prabhupada: You don't remember your childhood that does not
mean you had no childhood. Do you remember when you were so small boy, what did
you did?
Allen Ginsberg: Certain things. Not very small, but
there.
Prabhupada: Or when you were in your womb of your mother. Do
you remember?
Allen Ginsberg: No.
Prabhupada: Then, does it mean that you are not.
Allen Ginsberg: No, it doesn't mean that I am not.
Prabhupada: Yes. You do not remember, that is not reason.
That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.
Prabhupada:
dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]
Because I do not remember what I did in my mother's womb,
that does not mean that I had no a little body. The body is change, I am there.
Therefore, I change this body I will remain. This is common sense business. I am
changing my body daily every moment. Your childhood body and this body is not
the same. You have changed your body, but that does not mean you have, you are
different person.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but I have really never seen or heard
any, anything but what I see in here now. What I see in here is what I can
remember is what I can remember. I don't, I've never heard any reasonable or, or
even drawing description of previous incarnations, or previous births.
Prabhupada: You have never heard?
Allen Ginsberg: Of, I've never heard anything sensible
sounding about it, anything that actually makes me think, "Ah, that must
be."
Prabhupada: Is it not sensible?
Allen Ginsberg: Not really, no. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Why not?
Allen Ginsberg: Sensible, touchable.
Prabhupada: Now, suppose, not suppose, it's a fact: your body
in the mother's womb in the first day.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Of the father, mother sex life, it comes just
like the pea many diverse. So from the pea you have come to this point. So body
is changing. So what is the astonishment if you change this body, again become,
take another pea form. What is the difficulty to understand?
Allen Ginsberg: Well, the difficulty to understand would be
any permanent being; to understand that there is any permanent being or any
continuity of any form of consciousness from one body to another.
Prabhupada: Then you have to consult. Therefore you have to
take, just like when you can not understand something, we consult some great
authority. Is it not?
Allen Ginsberg: Not enough to make me dream of it at night,
no. Not enough to make me love it. Words are not enough. That authority is not
enough to make me love it.
Prabhupada: You don't accept authority?
Allen Ginsberg: Not enough to love.
Prabhupada: No, love, apart from love.
Allen Ginsberg: Not enough to...
Prabhupada: Consult.
Allen Ginsberg: ...going to accept authority. It's just
that...
Prabhupada: Consult, consult.
Allen Ginsberg: I can't even understand an authority that
says that I am there when I don't feel myself there.
Prabhupada: Well, suppose when you are in some legal trouble,
you go to lawyer. You cannot understand. Why do you say you cannot understand?
Where you have disease where do you go to a physician. You see? Authority you
accept.
Allen Ginsberg: In America we've had a great deal of
difficulty with authority.
Prabhupada: No that is, that is...
Allen Ginsberg: No, here is a special problem.
Prabhupada: That is, that is, I mean to say,
misunderstanding. Authority we have to. The child has to accept authority.
Always ask mother what is this father, what is this...? Why? That is the
beginning: ask, ask, ask. That is the way of acquiring knowledge. Tad
vijnanartham sa... The Vedic injunction is there, if you want to understand that
science, you must to go to guru.
Allen Ginsberg: But do you understand your previous lives
from the descriptions in authoritative texts, or from any introspective
recollection...
Prabhupada: No, we have to corroborate.
Allen Ginsberg: ...of your own?
Prabhupada: Corroborate. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita, it
is said that sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [Bg. 6.41]. One who
could not finish this Krsna consciousness, he gets birth in two places, either
in very rich family, or in a very pure brahmana family, brahminical cultured
family. So from my life I experience, when I was very little child six or seven
years old, I was very much fond of Krsna. And I got the opportunity of this two
things. Although my father was not very rich, but he was pure Vaisnava. He was
great devotee of Lord Krsna.
Allen Ginsberg: I assume Calcutta.
Prabhupada: In Calcutta, and accidentally, I was born in a
very rich family. You have seen that picture in my Calcutta, dancing. In that,
there is a Kashi Mallik's family.
Indian Woman: (Bengali) Kashi Malliker?
Prabhupada: They are very aristocratic family. I do, I did
not belong to that family, but I was born in that family, you see? And from the
very beginning the Kashi Mallik, they have got nice Radha-Krsna temple. So I was
standing before the deity, and I was seeing, "Oh, He is Krsna. Oh, people say He
is dead. How he is dead?" Like that I was thinking. And then my, I asked my
father, "Oh, I shall worship Krsna, give me." So my father gave me Radha-Krsna,
so I, whatever I was eating, I was offering them. So the statement of the sastra
and my practical experience corroborates. So we we have to take instance like
that, you see? Sadhu sastra guru vakya. We have to test everything from three
positions: the spiritual master, scripture, and holy man. Scripture means, just
like Bible. What is Bible? Scripture. Why the scripture? It is fully contains
the instruction of sadhu, holy man, or spiritual master, Lord Jesus Christ,
therefore is scripture. The scripture means the statement of liberated holy man.
That is sadhu. Therefore, scripture should be tested through the holy man and
spiritual master. Spiritual master should be tested through scripture and holy
man, and holy man should be tested through spiritual master and scripture.
Allen Ginsberg: What is the difference between holy man and
spiritual master?
Prabhupada: No difference, but one has to test whether he is
holy man. Then you have to, he has to corroborate with the statement of the
scripture. Spiritual master is to be tested whether he is holy man, and whether
there is corroboration in the statement of the scriptures. Sadhu sastra guru
vakya tinete koriya aikya. Just like the law court, the experienced lawyer's
speaking and giving evidence. Sadhu-sastra, and the judge is giving judgement,
"Here is a statement, here is this lawbook." He has (indistinct). He also
testing, the judge is also testing how the lawyer is speaking, and how it is
corroborates to the lawbook. So similarly everything has to be tested in that
way. The scripture should be consulted, and we should have to see whether it is
corroborated. So we should not accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if
he does not corroborate with the statement of the scripture. So we should not
accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if he does not corroborate with
the statement of the scripture. He's at once rejected.
Allen Ginsberg: How shall we sing tomorrow. Have you thought
of an arrangement of the program?
Prabhupada: As you like.
Allen Ginsberg: As you like. At what time are we supposed to
do it?
Hayagriva: Eight.
Allen Ginsberg: In the hall?
Hayagriva: Hm.
Allen Ginsberg: Is there a stage?
Devotee: The stage has a..., there's a seat, there's a floor,
and there's gradually little steps about six, seven steps and then the stage,
where the platform, so on the steps people can sit also.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes, the more the merrier. So how long will
we go? Did you figure?
Hayagriva: Well, when, we have the auditorium till...
Allen Ginsberg: How long?
Hayagriva: At least two and a half hours.
Allen Ginsberg: Okay, let's go through the whole two and a
half.
Hayagriva: Good, good.
Prabhupada: So, how do you feeling about chanting?
Allen Ginsberg: I have been chanting steadily all along now
although I enjoy it more and more.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Allen Ginsberg: Lately, Peter and I have been chanting
together on stages, and lately we have been singing Raghupati Raghava Rajarama.
Is that part of your canon also?
Prabhupada: No. There is no harm, but this chanting of Hare
Krsna mantra is recommended in the scripture.
Allen Ginsberg: The Hare Krsna is the most pleasing of the
chanting as far as I am concerned. Do we want to do that continuously, for as a
complete?
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Allen Ginsberg: Do you want to do that continuously or do you
want any other like Gopala or...
Prabhupada: I think this Hare Krsna mantra should be
chanted.
Allen Ginsberg: You see, we have two and a half hours.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee: It'll be lecturing too though.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupada: I think in the beginning we should have
kirtana.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupada: And at the end we should have kirtana. And in the
middle we can speak, you can speak about Krsna Conciousness.
Allen Ginsberg: I think you'd better speak because you're
more eloquent on it and also you understand in the language...
Prabhupada: I'll speak and you'll also speak.
Allen Ginsberg: You might not like what I say.
(laughter)
Prabhupada: No you say your experience, how you're
experiencing. That's all.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Okay.
Prabhupada: Yad yad vibhutimat sattvam. You have got Krsna's
blessings upon you. You are not ordinary man.
Allen Ginsberg: I'm not certain that I'm worthy of that,
Swamiji.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But I know that you are not
ordinary man.
Allen Ginsberg: Well... I've only recently stopped smoking,
by the way, finally. With that car crash, I quit smoking. But I haven't stopped
eating meat. So what is the intelligence of meat?
Prabhupada: You remain with us at least for three months and
you'll forget your... You remain with us for three months. (laughter) With your
associates, you just come to Vrndavana. We shall live together.
Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now?
Prabhupada: Yes. And you'll forget everything. You'll be
fully Krsna conscious.
Allen Ginsberg: We have a farm also now in upstate New York.
There we have vegetarian table also in the farm. We have a cow, goats.
But...
Prabhupada: From economic point of view, if one man has got a
cow and four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start.
He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have) one cow
and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a
cow, there will be no economic question. All the factories will be closed.
Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think?
Prabhupada: Four acres.
Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.
Prabhupada: That I am instructing Kirtanananda, to show this
example in New Vrindaban.
Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four
acres?
Kirtanananda: I hope so.
Prabhupada: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per
head?
Allen Ginsberg: I just this last night was in Minnesota,
which is flat, very fertile, very rich land.
Prabhupada: Where it is? Which province?
Allen Ginsberg: Minnesota. Midwest. Further west. Talking
with a poet who also is a fellow sadhana, whose family is from that area for
many generations, whose brother has a thousand acres of land, and he himself has
160 acres of land. And as farming is done now in America, apparently 160 acres
is not enough to support a farm economically because farming is done now in such
large scale with machines.
Kirtanananda: You can use those machines if you want. If you
want to live in the so-called American style, that is so. But if you're willing
to adopt the Vedic way of minimizing the material needs in order to pursue Krsna
consciousness, what does one need? He needs sufficient food to keep the body
healthy and a place to lay down. So four acres is plenty.
Allen Ginsberg: Where do you get the... How do you feed the
cow, or would you?
Kirtanananda: On four acres you can do it.
Allen Ginsberg: You can get enough hay for a cow,
for...?
Prabhupada: Fodder. Yes. We grow.
Guest: On food, it depends on what part of the east?
Allen Ginsberg: He's a farmer.
Guest: Whereabouts? What part? Cause a cow has to have about
three acres for grazing.
Kirtanananda: So at most five acres. It's in that
vicinity.
Allen Ginsberg: See we are interested in this problem of
minimizing.
Prabhupada: So let us cooperate.
Allen Ginsberg: And doing organic farming and minimizing the
effort and also the material demands.
Kirtanananda: You can grow sufficient vegetables on a
fraction of an acre.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. We had a big vegetable garden this year,
too. I've been doing farming... Peter has been doing a great deal of
farming.
Hayagriva: How are you tilling your land?
Guest: We have a friend who comes out with a plow.
Allen Ginsberg: You're doing it by hand?
Kirtanananda: We just got a horse.
Hayagriva: We just got a horse. We had bad experience with a
rotary tiller. We got rid of it.
Kirtanananda: West Virginia. We gave it away.
Allen Ginsberg: So we're also going through a coovy(?) asrama
for poets. A little farm for poets.
Prabhupada: Yes. Farming, agriculture, that is nice. There is
a proverb: agriculture is the noblest profession. Is it not said? Agriculture is
noblest, and Krsna was farmer, His father.
Allen Ginsberg: The cow.
Prabhupada: Cow, yes. And in Vedic literature you'll find, a
man is... Richness of a man is estimated by the possession of grains and cows.
Dhanyena dhanavan. If he has got sufficient quantity grain, then he's to be...
Formerly, even still in India, when a daughter is offered to a family, they will
go and see how many morais(?) there are. Grain stock. If he sees that he has
five, six, big, big grain stock, then he can... "Oh, this is nice house." You
see? "They can feed." So in India still, the arrangement is that every family
has got at least two years grain in stock. You see? And cow at least one dozen.
No economic problem. And actually, that is the fact. You keep cows and have
sufficient grains, whole economic problem solved. Eating. And sleeping, you can
take some wood and four pillars. Of course, in your country it is not...
Allen Ginsberg: It's very cold.
Prabhupada: Very cold. (laughing) India, all the year they
are lying on the flat sky.
Kirtanananda: But still, it is very simple. We also
experimented with that. You can build a nice shelter very... for ten, fifteen
dollars.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, it depends. You see, where we are we're
twenty below.
Kirtanananda: Well, we have pretty near that in West
Virginia.
Allen Ginsberg: In Minnesota gets thirty, forty, sometimes,
below.
Kirtanananda: There has to have sufficient wood sawed
up.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupada: Formerly, in Europe they were also living.
Allen Ginsberg: Man lived this way for 20,000 years, 30,000
years until the 19th Century.
Prabhupada: So we have to live that. Plain living, high
thinking. The necessities of this bodily existence, that should be minimized and
not unhealthy. Healthy. To keep oneself fit. But the time should be
utilized-develop Krsna consciousness, spiritual life. Then his whole problem is
solved. Here is the big man.
Allen Ginsberg: Young devotee.
Kirtanananda: Haribol.
Prabhupada: How many rounds you chant?
Child: All rounds.
Prabhupada: Only one round?
Child: All round.
Kirtanananda: All the way round.
Woman: All the rounds.
Prabhupada: All the rounds? Oh, very nice. He's Mr. Dhari(?).
Oh, you did not return?
Indian Lady: (Bengali)
Kirtanananda: (introducing:) Mr. Ginsberg.
Allen Ginsberg: I'm saluting you like that. So...
Indian Lady: (Bengali)
Prabhupada: Sucinam srimatam gehe [Bg. 6.41].
Indian Lady: He's so good, because he was so good last
time.
Prabhupada: Children very easily adopt it. So this is the
perfect yoga system. No artificial education. Spontaneous response, dancing,
Hare Krsna. That's all. This is the easiest method. So the greatest contribution
to the human society. Do it.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, so tomorrow we'll be doing it. So now,
the next question I had in my mind is we'll be doing kirtana, then language,
speech. Then end with kirtana.
Prabhupada: That is also kirtana. Kirtana means kirtayati.
Glorifying. That is kirtana. So either you sing musically or you speak
devotionally, both of them are kirtana. Just like Sukadeva Gosvami, he
continually spoke to Maharaja Pariksit. That is also state, sri visnu... sravane
pariksit, abhavad vaiyasakih kirtane. Vaiyasaki, the son of Vyasadeva, Sukadeva
Gosvami, he became liberated simply by kirtane. But what is that kirtana? He
never played musical way. He simply explained Srimad-Bhagavatam. So this is also
kirtana. This is called sankirtana. Bahubhir militva kirtayati. That is
sankirtana.
Allen Ginsberg: The chanting is sankirtana.
Prabhupada: Chanting, yes. Sankirtana.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, if we have two and one half
hours...
Hayagriva: We have as long as we...
Allen Ginsberg: How long a sankirtana to begin with, do you
think?
Hayagriva: The first one would last, what thirty minutes?
Forty minutes? Thirty, forty minutes?
Prabhupada: Yes. Forty, forty-five. At least, half an hour
beginning.
Allen Ginsberg: Okay. At least half an hour.
Prabhupada: Last also, half an hour. One hour. And? You have
got time? Two hours?
Hayagriva: Oh, as long as you want. Nobody's going to be
using that auditorium.
Prabhupada: Then make it one hour speaking and one hour
kirtana. Or one half hour kirtana, one hour speaking.
Allen Ginsberg: At least an hour of kirtana, yes.
Hayagriva: I don't know how long we will keep a big audience
there. That is to say, after the first hour they might start milling out. But if
we keep half an audience, that would be nice.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah, well, half will stay. Then the other
thing is what tune to use in the kirtanas? I use several tunes.
Prabhupada: That as you like.
Allen Ginsberg: I would like to begin with the one I've been
using. Is that all right? Or do you want to end with that? Or whatever we
want.Hayagriva:
How can we get the people to join in? That's a big thing. We'd like to have the
audience to join us.
Allen Ginsberg: It's an audience seated out
there, huh? Let me see. How many devotees will be there?
Hayagriva: Onstage?
Kirtanananda: Everyone here. More from
Buffalo.
Allen Ginsberg: What I think might be a good
idea is, would it be possible to have the devotees start on the stage, and then
if it looks like the audience is not singing vivaciously enough, have the
devotees go out and sing... Walk up and down singing?
Prabhupada: When the audience joins, that will
be very nice.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Do you have a picture of
the words written out for the audience? 'Cause if they've got that...
Hayagriva: Yes, we have that.
Allen Ginsberg: The question I'm asking
basically is, one question I'm asking is, would it be all right to use the tune
I've been using at one point or another?
Hayagriva: Well, tomorrow night, if we can
practice together, we can play together some...
Pradyumna: We have four drums, cymbals, and a
tambura.
Hayagriva: We can use yours and we can use
ours. When we chant, it's easier for a large group to follow. It's very simple.
First, we sing a couple of melodies. Then we can practice in a little while and
see which one is (indistinct).
Allen Ginsberg: Okay.
Hayagriva: I think once they get into the
chanting, your melody might be a little difficult for them to follow. I'm not
sure. Because it varies. There's variation there.
Allen Ginsberg: The problem, though, is that
I've never been able to swing with it before. That's why I haven't used it. So
what I would suggest is... Okay. We'll practice it tomorrow.
Hayagriva: We can swing, I'm sure we can swing
something.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. But whatever we do, we
got to swing.
Hayagriva: That's for sure. But there've
been... See what you think of various melodies. We play various melodies and see
how we can come out. Another thing, do you want to have responsive chanting?
Prabhupada: Responsive chanting must be there.
Allen Ginsberg: That would be interesting,
yes.
Prabhupada: Otherwise everyone will become
tired and that will be chaotic. Response. That's nice. Then the audience will
respond.
Allen Ginsberg: We got into some responsive
chanting last time.
Kirtanananda: Why don't you lead?
Prabhupada: Huh? I can lead.
Allen Ginsberg: That's a good idea.
Prabhupada: I can lead.
Allen Ginsberg: That's a groovy idea.
Hayagriva: I think what we'll do is you lead
the first chant, and then...
Prabhupada: Others will respond.
Hayagriva: And then Mr. Ginsberg can talk a
little of his experiences, and then you talk. And then Mr. Ginsberg lead the
second.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Devotee: Because Prabhupada will be speaking
for an hour, maybe Hayagriva you can lead the first chant. You have a very nice
voice too. Because he'll be speaking for an hour.
Prabhupada: If there is time he will also
speak.
Hayagriva: Well, if he can lead the first I
think that would be... The students would be...
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. If he leads the first,
will they be able to have responsive chanting too? Do you want responsive
chanting when you lead?
Hayagriva: Oh yes. You'll lead, then we'll
respond.
Prabhupada: If every one of our devotee will
respond, naturally the audience also will respond.
Hayagriva: We'll have a microphone to make it
easier for the audience.
Prabhupada: Then you also one of us.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So there is nice microphone?
Hayagriva: There will be one, two, three,
four, five microphones on stage. And I have one for around your neck, one for
around your neck, and if you don't like that, there are stands. But the stands
can be down here, can be up here.
Allen Ginsberg: Can Peter get near one too?
Can Peter get near a microphone?
Kirtanananda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: Okay. Well, that's a very good
program then. What instrument, stage instruments, do you have? Do you have a
harmonium?
Hayagriva: They're from Buffalo. Oh, we
have... We have two harmoniums.
Allen Ginsberg: I think we have our harmonium
also.
Hayagriva: We have three harmoniums.
Allen Ginsberg: Same pitch?
Hayagriva: We'll have to check that tomorrow.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Let's check the pitch of
the harmoniums tomorrow. I've been learning to write music. My kavi guru was a
poet named William Blake. Do you know Blake?
Prabhupada: Oh. Yes, yes, I have heard his
name.
Allen Ginsberg: So I've been writing music.
He's a lot like Kabir. Yes. Srimata Krsnaji and Bankibehari in Vrndavana. Do you
know them at all?
Prabhupada: Srimataji?
Allen Ginsberg: Srimata Krsnaji in Vrndavana,
is a lady in Vrndavana who translates Kabir into English, compared him with
Blake.
Prabhupada: No, she is different. I know one
Mataji. She came to see me from Vrndavana in Los Angeles. She's in London.
Allen Ginsberg: So I have been learning to
notate music, in..., singing songs by William Blake which I've written a little
music to. So those are, in a way, my guru's songs.
Prabhupada: I can give you so many songs.
(laughter) Just like he can read it.
Allen Ginsberg: Are there many songs in there?
Prabhupada: Not there. There is diacritic
mark. Can you read it?
Allen Ginsberg: No. I don't think.
Prabhupada: This, Nitai-pada...
Allen Ginsberg: Nitai-pada-kamala koti candra
susitala.
Prabhupada: Yes, you are reading.
Allen Ginsberg: Ye chayaya jagata juraya. Hena
nitai vine bhai, radha-krsna paite nai...
Prabhupada: Dharo nitai... Drdha kori... You
can read it. It is not difficult.
Allen Ginsberg: Se sambandha nahi jar, brtha
janma gelo tar. What meter is that in? Da-da-da-da da-da-da, da-da-da-da...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
se sambandha nahi
jar
brtha janma gelo
tar
sei pasu boro
duracar
nitai na bolilo
mukhe
majilo samsara
sukhe
vidya kule ki koribe
tar
I shall
explain to you sometime.
Allen Ginsberg: Ahankare matta hoiya...
Prabhupada:
ahankare matta
hoiya
nitai pada
pasariya
asatyere satya kori
mani
nitaiyer koruna
habe
braje radha-krsna
pabe
dharo nitai carana du
'khani
Allen
Ginsberg: Who wrote this?
Prabhupada: This is Narottama dasa Thakura, a
great poet and devotee.
Allen Ginsberg: Who?
Prabhupada: Narottama dasa Thakura.
Allen Ginsberg: You've been writing many in...
A beautiful notebook.
Prabhupada: This, I was supplied this dummy
book, without printing. So I'm using it as notebook. (laughs)
Allen Ginsberg: Would you like to hear one of
the Blake songs?
Prabhupada: Blake song?
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, why not.
Allen Ginsberg: (to Peter) Do you want to sing
"Tears Up"? (singing:)
Whate'er is born of mortal birth
Must be consumed with the earth,
To rise from generations free,
Then why have I to do with thee?
The sexes sprung from shame and pride,
Blow in the morn, in the evening die,
But mercy change death into sleep
The sexes rose to walk and weep.
The mother of my mortal part
With cruelty did'st mould my heart,
And with false self-deceiving tears,
Did'st bind my nostrils, eyes and ears
Did'st close my tongue in senseless clay
And be to mortal life betrayed.
The death of Jesus set me free
Then what have I to do with thee.
It is raised, a spiritual body.
Prabhupada: He believes in spiritual body.
That's nice. (laughter)
Allen Ginsberg: It's a,...
Prabhupada: That is Krsna Consciousness.
Allen Ginsberg: ...it's Blake's version.
Prabhupada: (to Hayagriva) I think you wrote
one article about this?
Hayagriva: Enlight... I think in one of the
Krsna Consciousness poetry, I mentioned Blake.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes, he apparently fits into,
in the West what is called the Gnostic tradition, which has similar ideas and
similar bhakti attitudes to the Buddhist and Hindu traditions. Similar
cosmography, cosmology. He was my teacher.
Prabhupada: He did not give much stress on
this material body.
Allen Ginsberg: No! At the end of his life, he
didn't count on the material body.
Prabhupada: So, there is a spiritual concept
of life in his poetry.
Hayagriva: Blake died on chanting. I don't
know what he was chanting but he died singing.
Allen Ginsberg: He died singing.
Prabhupada: Ahh.
Hayagriva: He died singing something.
Allen Ginsberg: What of Blake's would in fit
in, I wonder? "The Lamb?" "The Lamb" would fit. Oh, "The Chimneysweeper," yes,
"The Chimneysweeper." (to Peter) Do you want to try that?
Prabhupada: Chimney sweeper?
Allen Ginsberg: It's a song by Blake: "When
my..." (to Peter) Do you need the words or, you can follow it without the words,
yeah:
When my mother died I was very young
And my father sold me while yet my tongue
Could scarcely cry, weep, weep, weep, weep.
So your chimneys I sweep and in soot I sleep.
There's little Tom Dockreb who dark cried when
his head
That curled like a lamb's back were shaved, so
I said,
"Hush Tom, never mind it for when your head's
bare,
You know that the soot cannot spoil your white
hair."
And so he was quiet and that very night
As Tom was asleeping he has such a sigh
That thousands of sweepers Dick, Joe, Ned, and
Jack
Were all of them locked in coffins of black
And by came an angel who had a bright key
And he opened the coffins and set them all
free,
Then down a green plain, leaping, laughing
they ran
And wash in a river and shine in the sun.
Then naked and wiped, all their bags left
behind
They rise upon clouds and sport in the wind
And the angel told Tom if he be a good boy
He'd have God for his father and never want
joy.
And so Tom awoke and we rose in the dark
And God with our bags and our brushes to work
Though the morning was cold, Tom was happy and
warm
So if all do their duty, they need not fear
harm.
Did you understand the...
Prabhupada: Some of them.
Allen Ginsberg: Well it's... The
chimneysweeper is the little boy who has to go into a chimney to sweep out the
soot. And the man who hired the chimneysweeper cut off all his hair, and he had
beautiful hair, so his friend told him, "Never mind because when your hair is
gone you know that the soot cannot spoil your pretty white hair." So if you have
no hair you don't have to worry what will happen to your hair, which is a very
Vaisnava doctrine also.
Devotee: Excuse me, Prabhupada, it's five to
eleven now.
Allen Ginsberg: Ok. We'd better let everybody
retire.
Kirtanananda: Here, there's a little bit of
food coming.
Devotee: Ah, prasadam.
Allen Ginsberg: Oh, it's a Gnostic doctrine,
if it's not Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: Come on. You come, Mr. Ginsberg,
take. First of all, you take. You take.
Allen Ginsberg: Thank you.
Prabhupada: Take more.
Allen Ginsberg: I have something. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 11, 1969, Columbus,
Ohio
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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