Avatars Come To Stop Nonsense

"Avatars Come To Stop Nonsense"

June 4, 1974

download  flash player

 

Take a test

---

Prof. Regamay: But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without (indistinct). And, for instance, one of the first questions I want to put: Visnu Purana, it's very similar and very coincidental to the Srimad-Bhagavatam.Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, Visnu Purana.Prof. Regamay: Is that... Practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of...Prabhupada: Yes, Visnu Purana is Vaisnava literature. There are eighteen Puranas. Out of eighteen, six are sattvika, and six are rajasika, and six are tamasika. The sattvika Puranas, they are Vaisnava literature. Visnu Purana, Brahmanda Purana, Bhagavata Purana, Padma Purana.Prof. Regamay: The same... Because I understood through... It is that the problem, that Krsna is the original person of divine, but in, by Ramanuja or Visnu Purana it reverse Visnu is the highest.Prabhupada: Krsna is Visnu.Prof. Regamay: And Krsna is the avatara of Visnu.Prabhupada: No. Krsna is avatari. You have read Bhagavad-gita?Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course.Prabhupada: Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah. Find out this verse.

aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
 [Bg. 10.8]

So sarvasya. There are originally three deities: Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. So Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah: I am the origin of all the deities." Read it.Guru-gauranga:

aham sarvasya prabhavomattah sarvam pravartateiti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
 [Bg. 10.8]

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."Prof. Regamay: Yes, I know what it is in the Bhagavad-gita but, for instance, in the words of Ramanuja, it is not Krsna, but it is Visnu which is the highest form. So this one question, what I had to put that... And also... May I sit down on...? I would be much more...Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Give him another pad.Prof. Regamay: Among the avataras which are described in the second and third book of Srimad-Bhagavatam, there are two questions I have to put. There is Krsna Himself, who appears as His own avatara, and the Krsna, the yadava Krsna.Prabhupada: Krsna, when He appears within this material world... That is also in the Bhagavatam, that He appears as Visnu incarnation. But actually, Krsna is the... In the Brahma-samhita it is stated, yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah, visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-visesah [Bs. 5.48]. You understand?Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand.Prabhupada: Visnur mahan, Maha-Visnu, yasya iha kala-viseso govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami. So the Maha-Visnu, the origin of the material creation... There is Maha-Visnu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakasayi-Visnu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah [Bs. 5.48]. So jagad-anda-natha is Brahma. So he is produced on the Garbhodakasayi Visnu. And this Garbhodakasayi-Visnu is expansion of Maha-Visnu. And Maha-Visnu is kala visesah, partial expansion of Krsna. Yasya hi, yasya hi. What is that? You have Brahma-samhita?Devotee: You have a copy downstairs.Yogesvara: Yasya prabha prabhavatah [Bs. 5.40].Prabhupada: No, that is another. Yasya nisvasita-kalam avalambya. Maha-Visnu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahma. Yasya hi nisvasita-kalam. Kalam atha avalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah. Many hundreds and millions of Brahmas there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Maha-Visnu. [break] Maha-Visnu is sub-plenary portion. First Krsna, then Balarama, then Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vasudeva. Vasudeva, Sankarsana. Then, from Sankarsana, Narayana. Then, from Narayana, again catur-vyuha, second Sankarsana, Vasudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Sankarsana is Maha-Visnu. And from Maha-Visnu, Karanodakasayi-Visnu. And from Karanodakasayi-Visnu, Ksirodakasayi-Visnu. The Ksirodakasayi-Visnu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Ksirodakasayi-Visnu. In that way, Krsna comes through Ksirodakasayi-Visnu. But this Ksirodakasayi-Visnu is the expansion of the expansion of Krsna.Prof. Regamay: Yes, I see, but...Prabhupada: It is like that.Prof. Regamay: Yadava Krsna spoke with Arjuna...Prabhupada: Huh?Prof. Regamay: It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Krsna which is in Bhagavad-gita?Prabhupada: Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [Bs. 5.33]. Krsna is one. Advaitam acyutam. Infallible. Anadi, He has no cause. Ananta-rupam. Ananta-rupam. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam [Bs. 5.33]. He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33]. Still, He's just a fresh young boy. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami. So Govinda is the adi-purusam. Aham adir hi devanam. Find out this verse, aham adir hi devanam. Ramanujacarya has also admitted Krsna the Supreme. Sankaracarya has admitted in his notes on Bhagavad-gita, sa bhagavan svayam krsnah. What is that?Nitai:

na me viduh sura-ganah
prabhavam na maharsayah
aham adir hi devanam
maharsinam ca sarvasah
 [Bg 10.2]

"Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages."Prof. Regamay: Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have... Because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sankhya-ist atheist. How could it be?Prabhupada: Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is... Original Kapila is Devahuti, son of Devahuti, Kapila.Prof. Regamay: It's what we can't find in Bhagavad-gita with...Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam. So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahuti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahuti. That is described in the Third Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. He is incarnation of Krsna, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated sankhya philosophy. And this sankhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not the original Kapila.Prof. Regamay: So that's not a true Kapila.Prabhupada: No.Prof. Regamay: And Buddha?Prabhupada: Buddha is saktyavesa-avatara. We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, saktyavesa-avatara; Mohammed, saktyavesa-avatara. Saktyavesa-avatara means a living entity especially empowered and he preaches the philosophy on behalf... That is called saktyavesa-avatara. There are different types of avataras. Gunavatara, manvantaravatara, yugavatara, lilavatara, saktyavesavatara, like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritamrta. About avataras. You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya, avataras. Innumerable avataras. Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatara sankhyeyah. It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing. You cannot count, or in the... What is that? Avatara. Read, read that chapter.Nitai: "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Krsna who come to the material creation are called avataras, or incarnations. Avatara means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuntha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatara. Avatara means to descend. The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Sankarsana is the purusa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first purusa incarnation of the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Maha-Visnu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego, and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world. The influence of the material nature cannot reach beyond the Viraja or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuntha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Krsna live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons. The material nature acts in two capacities as maya and pradhana. Maya is the direct cause, and pradhana means the elements of the material manifestation. The first purusa-avatara, Maha-Visnu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the purusa-avatara thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vasudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three gunas or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Eleventh Canto, as the predominating Deity of Aniruddha. Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are. These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Maha-Visnu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Maha-Visnu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-samhita this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahma, lives only during one breath of Maha-Visnu. Maha-Visnu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Maha-Visnu. The second Visnu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahma, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahma. In each universe, the Lord as Visnu maintains the universe tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Visnu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Siva and annihilates the cosmic... [break] ...Visnu who is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakasayi-Visnu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it. The third incarnation of Visnu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Ksirodakasayi-Visnu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the ocean of milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the purusavataras. Then He described the lilavataras. He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the lila or pastime avataras, but some of them may be described by the Lord. For example, Matsya, Kurma, Raghunatha, Nrsimha, Vamana and Varaha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Visnu, or gunavataras, is as follows: Brahma is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity by the influence of the mode of material passion is situated as Brahma. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakasayi-Visnu directly, and therefore Brahma has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahma is given in the Brahma-samhita, Fifth chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahma is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme... [break] ...lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candle power, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp."Prabhupada: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle. Then from this candle, another candle, another candle. Then many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still the first one is called original. So far the candle power is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle. like that.Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand.Prabhupada: Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya dipayate vivrta-hetuh [Bs. 5.46]. They are not derived from any other power. They are all Visnu-tattva. Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya dipayate, yas tadrg eva ca visnu-taya vibhati [Bs. 5.46]. This is the expansion of Visnu, Visnu-taya. Govindam adi-purusam. He is always referring, Govinda, Krsna. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **.Prof. Regamay: Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Krsna had to have an incarnation like Buddha who was teaching atheist doctrine and no...Prabhupada: That is described. I have described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Find out, Srimad-Bhagavatam, First Canto, first part.Prof. Regamay: I read it in your commentary to Srimad-Bhagavatam that he was, he didn't need to preach the worship of God because He was Himself God.Prabhupada: Yes.Prof. Regamay: But He doesn't say it in the text.Prabhupada: That is described in the SB.., sammohaya sura-dvisam [SB 1.3.24]. Sammohaya, just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men, we're advocating "There is no God." So He appeared before them... And they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the non-violence. So therefore He is God Himself, and He is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating.Prof. Regamay: Yes. Not teaching, but cheating.Prabhupada: Yes. (laughing) So sometimes... Just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says, "No, no, you don't require to go to... There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically, he says, "You don't require go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that.Prof. Regamay: Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God.Prabhupada: Yes, He is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from Vedas we understand that He is incarnation of God.Prof. Regamay: But he brought to the world the ahimsa, but I think ahimsa appears already in the Bhagavad-gita. But there was ahimsa also by the Jains.Prabhupada: Ahimsa, because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajna. Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas... Because Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantras. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras. So for that purpose, animal sacrifice... Just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals, frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal... Ahimsa paramo dharmah. He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence... Just like Christians says that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish" or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that... I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere. So I said that He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said, 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, isvara, godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example. The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful, we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is... But people, on slight imitation... Is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said... And he teached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christians will maintain big, big, up-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas. They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say in the Vedas it is stated, pasavo vadhyah srstah: "The animals are created for being killed." And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing... Actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidences. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that "I don't care for your Vedas." Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. Sruti-jatam means Vedic injunction.Prof. Regamay: Yes.Prabhupada: So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas. So if he says, "No violence," then it is against Vedas. Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not, he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction," therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas. Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare. We worship him like that. Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa. From philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaisnava we know that He is God. He is God, incarnation of God.Prof. Regamay: I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Visnu.Prabhupada: Visnu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Visnu. That is admitted in the sastra. That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Visnu. In Ceylon you have seen?Prof. Regamay: I have seen.Prabhupada: Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Visnu, Visnu-murti.Prof. Regamay: And but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else.Prabhupada: Person. He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person.Prof. Regamay: Yes, but Brahman is not person. Brahman.Prabhupada: Huh?Yogesvara: He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that rel was that we are simply this combination of chemicals.Prabhupada: Yes. That is all right.Prof. Regamay: Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no atman.Prabhupada: That is sunyavadi. We say also.Prof. Regamay: So they are... I think it's... I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that for instance, what I find here...Prabhupada: There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances... Just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey Me." The same philosophy is being taught by Krsna, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto Me. Obey Me." So that is religion. Yes. So the religion is... One who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything, that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That's all. You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion.Prof. Regamay: But I noted that for instance our Christian approach to God...Prabhupada: In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God.Prof. Regamay: It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevaladvaita I mean, where nirguna-brahman is the higher form of, than...Prabhupada: Nirguna-brahman... Just like... Here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after...,Guru-gauranga: Geneva Lake.Prabhupada: Geneva Lake. And few step after French lake.Yogesvara: Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French.Prabhupada: So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva

HOME

© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.