See The Spirit Soul

30 May 74 , Geneva

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Guru-gauranga: (translating from French) In the name of the Canton of Geneva and the city, we wish to extend our heartfelt welcome to you. This republic is an independent state, part of Switzerland, and it has a reputation for being a great center of dialogue between all men of science, philosophy and religion. Geneva is the seat of the World Council of Churches, and there is a Protestant pastor who is there as representative of the Canton of Geneva. Unique among the cities of the world, Geneva has had the privilege to greet many great religious heads such as Pope Paul VI, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and many others. As civil authorities, we are very much encouraged by religious or spiritual groups because they contribute to wake up the consciousness of the people, provided, of course, that they respect all the laws. For thousands of years, man has tried to find perfection through religious means, and for us what is so much important is that this be done with tolerance, that whatever the books, whether they be the books of India or the Torah or the Koran, that they contribute to a general welfare of all men and not that they fight each other. There is the need currently for men to understand each other better and hear each other better. The modern world neither has the time nor the interest to tolerate divisions between men, especially on the spiritual platform. As a result, everyone must try to improve the fate of the individual man through these means. Should we not, then, try to find some common language with which to solve these problems, all the while respecting the dignity of the common man? And we hope finally that this trip in Europe will give Your Divine Grace new perspectives in the search for the truth.

Prabhupada: I can speak in English?

Guru-gauranga: (he asks in French) The president says that you may speak directly in English, no translation needed.

Prabhupada: So Mr. President and Ladies and Gentlemen, the kind words that you have spoken to receive me, I thank you very much for the same.(?) Our preaching principle is bhagavata-dharma, and we do not say "This is Christian religion" or "Hindu religion" or "Muhammadan religion." We speak the science of God. So in the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is a verse which says,

sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhoksaje
ahaituky apratihata
yenatma samprasidati
 [SB 1.2.6]

"That is first-class religious system which teaches the follower how to love God." It doesn't matter what is the type of religion, religious process. Phalena pariciyate. The thing is proved by the result, how one has learned to love God. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmah. There are two kinds of religious engagements: one is called inferior and the other is called superior. The superior religious system is that which teaches the followers how to love God. Now, what kind of love? That is also expressed there: ahaituki, without any motive, and apratihata. Apratihata means that religious system cannot be checked by any kind of material impediments. If we come to that platform, then atma-atma means the mind, the soul, also the body, intelligence -- everything becomes fully satisfied.

So our this principle of teaching is based on Bhagavad-gita. (aside:) Give him the book. Perhaps you have heard the name of Bhagavad-gita, and some of you might have read it, Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita was spoken in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra to groups of cousin-brothers. They were fighting to occupy the kingdom, and in that place Lord Krsna, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, happened to be present as the chariot driver of one group, Arjuna. So Arjuna was trying to avoid the fighting because the other side, there were relatives, brothers. At that time he was lamenting his bodily relationship: "The other side is my brother, my grandfather, my nephews, my son-in-laws." So that was the platform of speaking Bhagavad-gita. So first of all, Krsna explained that "We are not this body." The first instruction was given,

dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
 [Bg. 2.13]

The first instruction of spiritual life is to understand that "I am not this body." The example is given, very simple thing, that I am present, although I remember that I had a small body lying down on the lap of my mother. I remember, when I was six months old, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and she was knitting. I still remember that. So everyone, we remember that we had a small body, and then another small body, then another small body. Those bodies are gone. I have got a different body now, but I remember that I had all these body. Therefore the conclusion should be for the sober man that "Although we have changed so many bodies, I, the person, the soul, am existing." Therefore Bhagavad-gita says, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Similarly, when I shall give up this body, I shall accept another body. This is the beginning of understanding, that "I am not this body. I am living in this body just like I am not this coat, but I am living within the coat." There is very vivid example in the Bhagavad-gita. If we read, we can understand that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." When this realization is there, that "I am spirit soul," aham brahmasmi... The exact word used in the Vedic literature, aham brahmasmi. That stage has to be attained in human form of life. In the animal forms of life, this understanding, that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul," in the animal stage of life it is not possible to understand. But in the human form of life it is possible because human being is advanced in consciousness and knowledge, and if he is educated, he can understand. And if he actually understands, then his position becomes brahma-bhutah, self-realized, prasannatma. Immediately he becomes jubilant. There is no more any cause of moroseness. That is the symptom. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. Then there is no more hankering or lamentation. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. At that stage, brahma-bhutah stage, we can see everyone, spirit soul. I don't see an American or a Swiss gentleman or a French gentleman or a cat or dog or tree, but I see the spirit soul. That, in that spiritual state, brahma-bhutah stage, samah sarvesu bhutesu, one can see that within this body there is the spirit soul, and he wants to work for benefit of the spirit soul, not for the temporary body.

So our Krsna consciousness movement is just on the principles of this Bhagavad-gita, to understand his real identity, spiritual identity. Panditah sama-darsinah.

vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
 [Bg. 5.18]

One who is actually pandita... Pandita means learned, and in spiritually learned (life), he sees that a very learned scholar, brahmana, and a dog, an elephant, a cow, or a low-born man, creature -- all on the same platform of spiritual life. So unless we come to that point, this so-called fighting and sectarianism will go on. So we want to teach people... Not only sectarian people in India or the so-called Hindus or Muslims or Christians. Everyone. Because everyone is spirit soul, and as soon as he understands that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul," then he becomes completely happy. Yenatma samprasidati. So people will not be happy, will not be satisfied, unless and until he comes to that spiritual understanding. So our humble method is on this principle, that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." And the spirit soul is eternal; therefore he has got to come to the platform of eternal happiness, eternal life and full knowledge. That is the perfection of life. And any type of religion -- it doesn't matter what it is -- which teaches this philosophy of life, that is first-class religious system. That is our conclusion.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.

Guru-gauranga: (has conversation with someone in French) The president would like to talk to you for a few minutes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Give me little water. (more French conversation) I was formally received by the French Cardinal.

Guru-gauranga: Danielou.

Prabhupada: Daniel. (French)

Guru-gauranga: He says that the discussion you had with the Cardinal was very interesting.

Prabhupada: Yes. Unless you come to that position of understanding, that "I am not this body," real spiritual knowledge does not begin. (French conversation)

Guru-gauranga: Understanding the philosophy, Monsieur de President does not understand why we find it necessary to dress differently, though.

Prabhupada: The different dress means as you have paid for it. Just like we can go to a tailor, he will supply you dress according to the payment you can make. Similarly, according to our karma, according to our work, we are given a type of body by the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. According... Because actually I do not possess this material body, but because I am in this material world, I am given a type of body by the material nature according to my work. (French conversation)

Guru-gauranga: Speaking about clothes, Monsieur le President says that he has been to India, and he understands that one dresses like this in India. But why would the disciples dress in America or in Europe in this way? Is it necessary?

Prabhupada: No. It is not necessary. Dress you can have as you like. It doesn't matter, because dress is a dead thing. Real thing is that we want a living being who can understand. That is real the position.

Guru-gauranga: Monsieur le President would like to know, if this movement gets bigger and bigger, won't it create problems in terms of working, the economy? Won't the economy suffer if our movement gets bigger and bigger?

Prabhupada: No. Economy will not suffer, but economy will be simplified because we have made some artificial economy. Actually, in the Bhagavad-gita we find the economic problem is solved by producing food grains. It is stated there, annad bhavanti bhutani: [Bg. 3.14] "By eating food grains, both the animals and the men, they become stout and strong." That's a fact. According to Bhagavad-gita, economic problem can be solved anywhere. If you get, if you have some land, you produce your food grain and give it to the animals, especially to the cows, and she will give you in return milk. So if you get milk, fruits, vegetable and food grains, the whole economic problem is solved. We have already started this example in New Virginia. A group of men, we have got about five hundred acres of land, and we keep cows, and they work to produce some vegetable and food grain. So they don't go outside for solving economic problems. At the present moment -- now I am coming from India -- in Bombay there is strike, railway strike. People are in so miserable condition to go to their work fifty miles, forty miles, hundred miles, for earning their bread. This kind of economic situation has increased the problems of life. Rather, if we accept this economic problem solution, then anywhere, any part of the world, you live. You don't require to go outside, hundred miles, two hundred miles, five hundred miles. No. You produce your food there, keep animals, then everything is solved. Actually, the problem is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. One should take up these problems very seriously: birth, death, old age and disease. So... Actually, as spirit soul, we have no birth, no death. You will find in the Bhagavad, na jayate na mriyate va kadacit: "The living entity does not take birth." Na jayate na mriyate va: "Neither he dies." Na hanyate hanyamane sarire: [Bg. 2.20] "After the destruction of the body, the living entity does not annihilate. He..." Just like we have got already the example: my body, childhood body, is annihilated; still, I am existing. Similarly, I will exist. Now, the problem is how I shall exist? I shall exist eternally in full knowledge and in blissfulness. That is the idea. But so long we accept this material body, it is just the opposite. It is miserable, without any knowledge and without eternity. Philosophy should be to save our time from complicated economic problems. We should make our life simple and save time for spiritual cultivation so that we can be relieved from repetition of birth, death, old age and disease.

Guru-gauranga: (translating for president) Thank you very much. (end)

First you understand the soul, then discriminate what is sin

Germany, June 17, 1975
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Prabhupada: What is there? He is digging? [break] Just see the fun.Devotee: Of all the four pillars of sinful activity, is meat-eating the worst?
Prabhupada: Everything is worst. Sinful is sinful. Disease is disease. This body, either it is living or it is dead, it is not very important thing. Now see. And the whole world is after this body. Krsna says, "The body, either dead or alive, it is not a subject matter for serious consideration." Now see. And what the world is going on? Simply for bodily... Body means senses. It is very difficult to the, for the western people to understand that body is not important thing; the soul is important thing. First of all, they do not know what is soul and then consideration of importance. This is their position. And if one cannot understand what is soul, what he will understand about God? Soul is a minute particle of God. If one cannot understand about this minute particle, then what he'll understand of the Supreme? In the laboratory, if you can test a little sample, just like take a little sea water, analyze, you chemically test, then you can understand what is the composition of the sea water. But if you have no knowledge even a small drop of sea water, how you'll understand the sea, what... That is their position. They do not understand even the sample of spirit soul, as we are. Simply they are trying to cover it. "There is no soul. There is no soul. Life is generated from matter." Although they cannot prove it. A fool's paradise. The fools, rascals, they are explaining the living force in some way, and other fools are accepting. This is the position of western countries, Europe and America. It is a fool's paradise. It is paradise, certainly. Very, very, big, big building and advancement, but all rascals and fools. Fool's paradise. (pause) And if you call a fool a fool, he'll be angry. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na samyati (?). (pause) [break] ...so many, so much production, but if nature's law can stop this production, then the question of over-population. If the nature likes, it can produce three times, four times this production. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. After all, nature is producing. We do not know how to deal with nature. Therefore there is scarcity, and we say, "over-population." There is no question of over-population. There are so many hundreds and thousands of birds within this forest, other animals. They have no problems of over-population. Eh? (pause) All these men, who are living in these villages, so what is their means of livelihood? Agriculture or industry? Or service?
Hamsaduta: I think mostly they work at some... Well, some service, yes.
Prabhupada: Factory.
Hamsaduta: Employed at some factory. But very few people actually work on the land. And we can see so much land. No one is working. 'Cause by machine, they can work so quick on the land. [break]
Prabhupada: This should be exemplary, that our community shall live in this way and save time for spiritual advancement of life. This example should be shown to the whole world, that "Here is a community. They have no problem, and they are simply interested in Krsna consciousness." This will be the idea. Is it possible?
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Krsna." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise. They are thinking it is paradise. And the paradise is lost every ten years or fifteen years by the bombing. German bombs the France, and France bombs the... This is their paradise. So let them understand that "You are all fools. You are fool's paradise. This is life, what we are doing." Teach them so that the fools will understand what is life. They are manufacturing atom bomb. Russia is hiding himself.
Devotee: Now they've found out, Srila Prabhupada, that India has been, over the past few years, spending crores of rupees to develop the...
Prabhupada: Hm. And people are starving for want of. There was a cartoon that some public came to some minister: "Sir, we are starving. Give us our food." So the reply was: "Of course, that's a problem, food problem. But I can assure you that from next week you'll have television." (laughter) These rascals are like that. "Next, from next week, you'll have television, atom bomb. Never mind. Starve." (laughter) So that is also becoming fool's paradise. Jada-vidya jato mayara vaibhava. In this way, the more we increase sense, sense gratification by advancement of material..., the more we forget Krsna. And more we forget Krsna, we are more fools. (aside:) Don't come so near.
Devotee: In England and America now, more and more there is a big movement for birth control and contraceptives...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: ...as their means to conquer over the so-called over-population problem.
Prabhupada: No, it is not over-population. They don't want to take care of children. This is their problem. It is not the question of over-population. They want to remain free and enjoy life, that's all. No responsibility. That is the hippies. That is the hippy movement.
Devotee: I have seen in all the big colleges and universities in England that I have been to, that this, amongst the students, the boys and girls, it is becoming so free. It is just like a hippy commune, the universities and colleges.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are indebted in so many ways. Therefore human being should be responsible. But the modern civilization is teaching to become irresponsible.
Hamsaduta: [break] ...there, on the sun.
Prabhupada: So suppose if your heat increases, what happens to you?
Hamsaduta: I get sick.
Prabhupada: That's all. [break] ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sada samudvigna-dhiyam. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat [SB 7.5.5]. Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahat. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyani parany ahuh. Indriyani means senses. Para, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyah param manah. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyah param manah, manasas tu para buddhih [Bg. 3.42]. Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Krsna is everything." Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So that highest position we are giving by Krsna consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Krsna yei bhaje sei bada catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Krsna consciousness [break] ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pandavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Krsna said, "All right, they are ksatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaisya or sudra. Give them five villages so that they'll be happy. They'll rule over, each one on the village." "No, Sir. Not a piece of land holding the tip of the needle can be spared without fighting." This is the world. The German, German war, First World War, what was the cause? The cause was that the Britishers will not allow the Germans to trade all over the world. They captured everything. And they'll purchase from Germany goods and cheat people...,
Hamsaduta: And sell...
Prabhupada: ..."Made in London," and sell it fifteen times higher than the Germans. This was their business. And that was the cause of... Is it not? Those who have studied history... This is the cause. So all this nonsense thing can be solved if we take it: "This is Krsna's property." And if you know something, you are manufac..., that's all right. You do it. I do something else. Or even if I do it, where is the cause of fighting? Because they do not know what is Krsna. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- June 17, 1974, Germany

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Different Bodies

Germany, June 20, 1974 download  Players

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Prabhupada: ...scientists can change it? Nature. Nature. Nature should be one kind. Why there are two kinds, varieties? [break] ...migration of the soul is clearly understood or not? Explain how the transmigration takes place.Madhavananda: Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram... [Bg. 2.13].
Prabhupada: That is sloka, but you explain how it takes place.
Satsvarupa: We get a body according to our desires, and then the body only lasts so long, and when it wears out, we have to take another body, and that is determined by our actions in this body.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But how you transmigrate?
Hamsaduta: According to the mental condition at the time of leaving this body.
Prabhupada: But what is the process?
Satsvarupa: The subtle body carries the soul.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the main point. The subtle body carries the soul. Just like in dream, we are carried by the subtle body and placed in different condition. But so long this body is capable of working, I come to this body. My dream is over, and I come back to this body. And death means that this body, being useless, instead of coming to this body, I go to another body. This is transmigration. Just like when you vacate an apartment, then you do not come back in that apartment, but you enter another apartment. Is it clear?
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: Anybody can understand. I am coming, going, but when it is a question of vacating, I go out of the apartment, but I never come back again. I will enter another apartment. "The soul enters another body" means enters the womb of another mother. And there the suitable body is created and again mother delivers the child. Again new chapter of life begins. Where is the difficulty to understand? But they are so rascal and dull-headed, the simple thing they cannot understand. And still, they are big, big scientists, philosophers, and cheating others. They are unable to understand, themselves, and the same rascal knowledge they are distributing to others and taking Nobel Prize. This is the mudhas, the society of the cheaters and the cheated. Where is the difficulty to understand the simple thing, how the soul is transmigrating? They sometimes say that "We do not see how it is going." No, how...? Can you see the mind? But can you deny, "There is no mind?" Mind is there. Everyone knows I have got mind, you have got mind, but do I see your mind? Therefore I shall deny the existence of mind? Mind, intelligence and ego -- these three things are there, but we cannot see. How my mind is working, can you see? Or how your mind is working, can I see? And because I cannot see, therefore shall I conclude that you have no mind, I have no mind? How foolish they are. Just see. What is their explanation, Satsvarupa?
Satsvarupa: I was just thinking of a different argument of theirs.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Satsvarupa: That is that sometimes people say, "I don't mind this transmigration if I become a cat or a dog because if I forget so completely, it doesn't matter. I won't even suffer."
Prabhupada: But it doesn't matter, but if I say that "I will turn you immediately into a dog," will you agree to become?
Satsvarupa: No.
Prabhupada: Why? You'll forget.
Satsvarupa: Fearful.
Prabhupada: If I say that "I can turn you immediately to become a dog..." That is possible, but will you agree to become a dog?
Madhavananda: No.
Prabhupada: Why? You will forget. That is foolishness. "Because I shall forget, therefore I don't care for it" -- this is childish, foolish proposal. If I say, "I will turn you immediately to this grass, and you will stay here for one hundred years," will you agree to stand like that for hundred years? Hare Krsna. In the western countries actually there is no philosophy.
Madhavananda: When this is explained to them, they usually, if they are a little intelligent, can understand, but they don't want to understand.
Prabhupada: That is the difference. And therefore they are rascals. No intelligence. Intelligence is there, but it is so covered that it is almost like trees. Trees are also intelligent because it is life. There is intelligence. You will see one tree is growing. If there is wall, it will grow like this. Have you seen it?
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is intelligence. And it is proved by science. Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he has got institute. A machine records how a tree feeling. You cut one tree. How it is feeling pain, that is recorded in the machine.
Hamsaduta: They also hear sound. They made some experiment that when they grow plants with music, they grow more.
Prabhupada: Oh, just see.
Hamsaduta: In greenhouses. They play music. Then they become more healthy.
Prabhupada: Just see. Their sensation is very covered. Just like you cut the nails. There is no sensation. And does it mean there is no sensation-therefore there is no life? Unless there is life, how it is growing? It is growing; therefore you cut. But when you cut, there is no sensation. But there is life. Otherwise, how it is growing? The same nail, when you cut, you throw it on the ground. It will not grow. These are practical example. Just like little child. Their sensation is less. I know. My eldest daughter, when she was six months old, there was some boil. So the doctor operated. She simply, "Uh, uh," no cried. I have seen it. She was not crying. But the same boil, when a fully developed man, he will feel more sensation. So according to the body, the sensations are different. The same things, means mind, intelligence and ego, according to the body, they act differently. But the mind, intelligence and ego are there. The dog is coming, and if I say, "Hut!", unless it has got intelligence, how it goes away the other way? There is intelligence. There is no language, but because he has got intelligence, he can immediately understand I don't want him to come here. So how you can say there is no intelligence? The rascals say "The animals have no intelligence; therefore they have no soul." If one has no intelligence, there is no soul. That is admitted. But here is intelligence. How can you deny, "There is no soul"? The animals, the cows, when they are taken to the slaughterhouse, why they cry? Because he has intelligence that "Now I am going to be killed." And these rascals say there is no soul. And still, they are religious priests. Such fools and rascals are made religious fools, priests. No common sense. And they also get degree, Doctor of Divinity, DD. [break] ...Greek scholar, here in this Germany or in nearby?
Hamsaduta: I don't know Prabhupada. We have been here for too short a time to find out who is exactly here, and all the people we contacted, their program was already fixed. They could not come, but they said they would be happy to meet you if you came again.
Prabhupada: That's all right. I wanted to know the philology of the Greek word "Kristo." Or is there any dictionary? Find out the word "Kristo."
Hamsaduta: Yeah, we can see today.
Prabhupada: Greek dictionary. [break] ...France.
Hamsaduta: Germany is bordered by many countries -- Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Switzerland. So we are right in the center of Germany. So Germany is in the center of Europe.
Prabhupada: [break] ...even a single stick like this in the laboratory. What do you think? You can?
Satsvarupa: No.
Prabhupada: What is scientist? Simply talking. Vikathyante. Vikathyante. This word is used in Bhagavata. When one is covered by maya, he talks so many nonsense things, vikathayante. [break]
Madhavananda: ...different living entities in different material bodies suffering.
Prabhupada: Yes. So long you have a material body, you must suffer. Just like in prisonhouse. When the criminals are put there, they are punished different way according to the criminal offense, similarly, you are, we are all criminals, and for different types of suffering we have got different types of body. Different types of body means different types of suffering. Just like this tree is punished, "Stand here for three hundred years." This is punishment. Just like we do, "Stand up on the bench!" Children. So any kind of material body, even Lord Brahma, that is suffering, different types of suffering. That's all. And if you want to be free from the suffering, then get out of this material body. This is... Krsna says that this is a place for suffering. Where does He say?
Satsvarupa: A-brahma-bhuvanal lokah: [Bg. 8.16] "From the highest planet down to the lowest, all are places of suffering where birth and death take place."
Prabhupada: Yes. (aside:) Just from distance, not so near. Duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Duhkha. Duhkha means suffering. Alayam. Alayam means place. So the creator of this universe, the Supreme Lord, He is saying, "This is a place for suffering." And it is called Mrtyu-loka, "For death, the planets for dying." That means death is unnatural to the eternal soul. But anywhere you live within this material world, you will die. That is material world. Either you live as a Brahma or live as a small insect, ant, you must die. Bhutva bhutva praliyate: [Bg. 8.19] death and again take birth, death and again take birth. But these rascals, they do not know: "This is natural, that's all." That one can stop this death and birth, they have no knowledge. And still, they are big, big scholars. They do not know that this movement is for stopping birth and death. Do they understand this?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: They cannot believe it. They have no so brain.
Satsvarupa: They say, "Well, that's the way you think in the East. It is very interesting."
Prabhupada: And why don't you think? That means you are fool. You cannot think, just like dog cannot think. So you are equal to dog. Tell them like that. It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of understanding. In the East also there are many rascals, and in the West there are many intelligent. If it is the East and West question, how the Western boys and girls taking this philosophy? It is not the East and West. It is the question of the rascal and intelligent. One who is intelligent, either he is East and West, he can understand. And one is a rascal, either he is East and West, he cannot understand. This is the real problem. Just like this cemetery. What is the use of keeping this cemetery, occupying unnecessarily so much land? And they are worshiping. They will not go to worship Radha-Krsna, but they will worship stone, bhutejya, offer flower, kneel down. And where the man has gone, he does not know. Bhutejya. And we saw in the Geneva. A big plot of land is occupied.
Hamsaduta: Every city has two or three at least, very big, because everyone has to get such a plot.
Prabhupada: And there are many ghosts also. Yes. Especially at night, if you go, you will see. There was a ghost in the house of John Lennon. John Lennon. I was guest there. There was a ghost. [ ...binding to the maya, to just remain a slave of maya and drink this beer. [break]
Hamsaduta: They introduced this.
Prabhupada: So before that, there was no Christian?
Hamsaduta: No, before that, there was no Christian.
Prabhupada: What they were? No religion?
Hamsaduta: They were like you said. They were just tribes people.
Prabhupada: Oh. So these Germans were tribe people, uncivilized?
Hamsaduta: Yes, before Christianity, Europe was completely uncivilized.
Prabhupada: Oh. Therefore the order is "Thou shalt not kill." Simply their business was killing. Uncivilized persons, they kill animals and eat. So due to past habit they could not forget this killing business. This is the proof that this system of religion was preached among the crude people, not civilized. So why they introduced this beer?
Hamsaduta: It was a kind of refreshment.
Prabhupada: But before that, they were not drinking.
Hamsaduta: There may have been something like wine. The monks also used to make wine.
Prabhupada: Yes, they make wine. Uncivilized men, they know how to make wine. In India they do so by rice boiling and keep it for some days. It becomes wine, fermented. Hare Krsna. [break] ...used to say that "I was drinking beer in barrels." He said. Forty years ago he said me like that. Here I don't see them, but Hamburg I have seen, yes, passing urine on the roadside. There are so many urine coming from the wall. 'Cause the more you drink beer, you will pass urine more. The German language is trinken, trinking. Drinking means trinking. Yes, I have seen it. Trinking or trinken?
Hamsaduta: Trinken.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...students, they are advancing for the unflinching faith on guru and Krsna. This is the secret. [break] ...these devotees, how nice they are. They do not appreciate?
Hamsaduta: I think most of them cannot understand it, but they sympathize, I think, because the principles are (indistinct).
Prabhupada: That is appreciation.
Hamsaduta: Yes, for the principles. At least in Germany we find that although people don't understand it, they appreciate that we are following the four principles.
Prabhupada: [break] ...understood that this group is another edition of hippies. Gradually they are learning that they are not hippies. They are serious. [break] ...paper it was published that "Swami Bhaktivedanta has come in the right time." And what is that?
Satsvarupa: Yes, in a number of articles, the writer notes that Prabhupada came at a perfect time in history, and went to the right place, the lower East Side of New York, and then again in Haight Ashbury, just when the hippie movement was big but they were looking for spiritual life. That is a historical expert move that you made.
Prabhupada: No, that is very good remark, appreciated. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He is known as patita-pavana, the deliverer of the most fallen. Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara: "My Lord, Your incarnation is for the reason to deliver all the fallen souls." So He gave one example by delivering Jagai and Madhai, but by His grace, now thousands of Jagai-Madhais are being delivered. He gave the example that here is the typical patita, fallen. So this movement will deliver this kind of people. That is His prediction. Or it... factually by this movement, so many Jagai-Madhais are being delivered. Jagai... What was their fault? The fault was they were number one woman hunter and all other good qualifications: (laughing) drunkard, meat-eaters and thieves, rogues. That is their qualification. And immediately Caitanya Mahaprabhu turned them to become Vaisnava. "Simply promise that... You say that you shall not commit anymore these sinful activities." "Yes, Sir, I will not." So that process we are going on. (end)

 

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Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...plan for wasting time. (devotees laugh) So the material world means they have got different devices for wasting time, not for utilizing time. Is it correct?Prajapati: It is considered one of our major problems, leisure time. People are having more time on their hands and they do not know what to do with it. So the government, they're scratching their heads inventing things for people to waste their time.
Prabhupada: This is the difficulty. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. Because they are rascal, they do not know how to utilize time, what is the aim of life, where you have to go. These things they don't know. So they must waste time. So it is the... Just like child. He wastes time in so many ways. It is the duty of the parents, guardians, to cr..., synchronize his activities so that he may not waste his time. It is the duty of the guardians. Similarly these rascals, they're wasting time. You have to engage them in Krsna consciousness. Then their time will be utilized. [break]
Devotee (3): ...in Holland wasn't any fuel Sundays, and the people could go outside with the cars, and then the statistics say that the fight between the family increased so, so much the police went... They went to the houses to, just to separate the people because there was fighting so much because they didn't have anywhere to go on Sundays. (devotees laugh)
Prabhupada: Just see. It has become a problem, ah, to remain at home. [break]
Prajapati: ...society, Srila Prabhupada, it would train up brahminical qualities. But in the people in general, how can we engage them also in Krsna consciousness? How can we provide them a means to use their leisure time to perfect their lives?
Prabhupada: Just chant Hare Krsna. Is it very difficult?
Prajapati: To get them to do it is difficult.
Prabhupada: Yes, let's call them in our temple, be practiced. Therefore our society is the most important society. We can teach people how to utilize time properly and be perfect. [break]
Prajapati: ...well you utilize your time, Srila Prabhupada, every second is engaged in Krsna's service. And our advanced Godbrothers, they've also learned this art. The vast majority of us, we haven't quite got the hang of it yet.
Prabhupada: It is practiced. As by practicing you become a first-class drunkard, similarly by practicing you can become a first-class Krsna conscious. It is equal. Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina [Bg. 8.8]. Abhyasa. Practice. In association the practice is very easily done. Just like you are saying, that you are engaged. So by association you can learn also. The association is very important. [break]
Prajapati: ...Srila Prabhupada. You're very, very regulated, almost down to the minute in your activities. This is also a big help in utilizing time?
Prabhupada: Yes. Avyartha kala tam(?) That explains the... This is... This should be our aim. Not a single moment is wasted. If you try that "How I'm wasting my time," then you'll utilize it. You should always remember. Not a single moment should be wasted. That is advised by Rupa Gosvami. Avyartha kala tam. Vyartha means spoiling. Avyartha means not spoiling. Avyartha kala. He should be always conscious that "I am not wasting my time." Then it will be done. Krsna... [break] ...on the street. The bums, they also utilize, that they want to see that not a moment is wasted without drinking. (devotees chuckle) Yes, they actually do that. They want to drink only, twenty-four hours. As soon as the bottle is finished, they're finding somebody who will pay one dollar, and purchase another small bottle. They're doing only business this. [break]
Prajapati: ...the holy name and devotional service.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Prajapati: You want us to be drunkards on the holy name, and be like those...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. There is eight kinds of transcendental transformation... (pause) (devotees chant japa) [break]
Prajapati: ...foolish play tennis, and the lazy foolish they play golf. (Prabhupada laughs) [break]
Prabhupada: ...less dangerous than the active foolish. (devotees chant japa) [break]
Prajapati: In the Bhagavad-gita it is indicated by Sri Krsna that when we approach a bona fide spiritual master our relationship is twofold. We render service and then we also make inquiry.
Prabhupada: Yeah.
Prajapati: Now, you have answered all our inquiries so thoroughly in our books that to make inquiry at this point seems like..., you've already answered all the questions. So how may we... What is the proper relationship at that point to make inquiry?
Devotee (4): Read the books.
Prabhupada: Yes. Read the books, yes. Why I'm working so hard? Read the books. [break] ...don't find him in the class also.
Devotee (4): Who should, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Srutakirti.
Devotees: (indistinct)
Devotee (5): He got married yesterday.
Yasodanandana: I heard yesterday he was married.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Yasodanandana: He went to officially. I... We tried yesterday to convince him, but he would not listen.
Prabhupada: Officially he's married now.
Devotee: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...seen that one who is married, he's lamenting, and who is not married, he's also lamenting. Is it not? Ah? One who is married, he's thinking, "Why did I marry? I would have remained free." He's lamenting. And who is not married, "Oh, I did not accept wife. I would have been happy." (laughs) (Hindi) There's a Hindi... It just like (Hindi). One who has eaten, he's also lamenting, and who has not eaten, he's also lamenting. [break] Trpyanti neha... That is said in Sanskrit. Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah [SB 7.9.45]. Krpana, by one's sex life he gets some children and he's... As soon as there is child, there is suffering. The child is suffering and the parents also suffering to take care. So, again he begets another child. Therefore it is said trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Behind this child-producing there is so much difficulties and trouble. He knows that. But again pro... Doing the same thing. Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Therefore a sane person, kandutivan manasijam visaheta dhirah. Therefore one who is dhira, one who becomes sober, he tolerates the sensations, itching sensations. It is after all itching sensation. So one who can tolerate the itching sensation, he saves so much trouble. But one who cannot, he's implicated, immediately. Either illicit or legitimate, it is trouble. Yan maithunadi... That is the only happiness in this material world. That is only happiness. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. One who wants to remain in this material world, his only happiness is sex life. He has no other happiness. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham. And that is very abominable, tuccham happiness. What is this happiness? But they cannot understand. Kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham. Itching, between the two hands. It produces so many bad results, but he's not satisfied. "All right, I've done once, that's all right. One children is all right, one or two." But no, then contraceptive, abortion, so many things. But the maya is so strong, it will induce, "Yes, do this." Again implicated. [break] Becoming master of the dog, he has become servant of the dog.
Prajapati: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just see practically. A man keeps the dog to give him protection when he'll be attacked by somebody. But to wait for that time he has to give twenty-four-hour service to the dog. (dog barking)
Devotee (1): I think he knows you're talking about him.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Devotee (1): I think the dog knows you're talking about him.
Prabhupada: He knows everything. [break]
Prajapati: Everything looks brand new, looks very different.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Prajapati: This is the first time we've gone this direction, everything looks different, looks like a total different place.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) This is material life. We are rounding sometimes this way, sometimes that way, and we are thinking "new." (devotees laugh) Ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. In this way you are wandering all over the universe. Find out something new. But there is nothing new. Everything is old. [break] ...a living entity is offered change of the body. You see? When he becomes fatigued of this life, "It's so troublesome" -- old men generally think like that. So he has to change another, another new body, child. Since born he is taken care, he thinks "Now, I have got so comfortable life." And again becomes old, disgusted, so he cannot live disgusting, therefore Krsna is so kind: "All right, change body again." Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. The business is the same, but changing body gives some relief. Just like these men, the business is they're wasting time by changing, wasting time at home, come to the golf club. That's all. The business is the same -- wasting time, either here or there. Krsna is giving so much facilities. Sometimes, "All right, you become tree." "All right, some, become a serpent," "All right, you become a demigod," "All right, you become a human being," "All right, you become king," "You become a cobbler," "You go to the heavenly planets," "Go to the hellish planets." Varieties is there. Krsna is so kind that He's changing varieties, atmosphere of life. But he's packed up in this material world. That freedom... He's asking for freedom, but he does not know the freedom is the shelter of Krsna. That he'll not accept. Therefore Krsna has arranged so many varieties. In disgust the Mayavadis, they want to make the varieties variety-less, nirvisesa. And the Buddhists they want to make it zero. But that is also not possible. Remain zero for some time. Again he will want varieties. Big, big Mayavadi sannyasi, they preach so much brahma satyam jagan mithya, but again they come to the political work, social work. Simply remain as brahma, "I am brahma," you cannot remain for many days. Then he has to accept these material varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment, so therefore our proposition is "Come to the real variety, Krsna consciousness. Then your life will be successful."
Prajapati: The Mayavadis, they not only misunderstand the nature of the Absolute, they misunderstand the function of the jiva.
Prabhupada: Yes. When one misunderstands, he misunderstands everything. One who commits mistake, he can commit mistakes in so many ways. They want to merge into the Absolute. They think that there is no variety, to avoid this variety. Ah? Just like sometimes one is suffering from some disease, they commit suicide. He thinks, "I'm suffering. If I commit suicide, then everything will be stopped." But he does not know that by committing suicide he'll increase another set of varieties of miserable conditions of life. He'll become ghost. And becoming ghost, you cannot enjoy anything grossly. The subtle body will create disturbance. Therefore ghost creates disturbance. He hasn't got gross body to enjoy. They're ghostly haunted; therefore a male ghost haunts over woman, woman ghost haunts over man. You know that? It so happens. Ghostly haunted.
Yasodanandana: In the New York temple they had a ghost upstairs.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Yasodanandana: The New York temple in Brooklyn...
Prabhupada: Aha.
Yasodanandana: This is, this was the old house which was used by nuns. And in the upstairs floor, on the complete top, there used to be some nuns that were dying there, very old nuns. And when they moved into the temple there was ghosts, still there, still there is there. There's one room, it still comes.
Prabhupada: Comes?
Yasodanandana: Yes. The ghost comes sometimes. They chant and put incense.
Prabhupada: Accha? But she does not go away? Or does not do any harm?
Gurukrpa: They don't let anyone sleep in that room.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Gurukrpa: Because everyone is haunted. There's many people have seen the ghost.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Yasodanandana: Many devotees.
Prabhupada: But ghost cannot remain where there is chanting of Hare Krsna. [break] In India, all collections should be utilized for Vrndavana temple. I shall personally supervise. So bring all collection to me.
Devotee: When we go to India.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...who has got (indistinct).
Devotee: The Rose Bowl.
Satsvarupa: Ramesvara said he had the figures, but I have to get them from him. [break]
Prabhupada: That is human life. Your choice, make your choice, which way. Again death or deathlessness. Stop death from you. This is human life. The karmis, jnanis, yogis, they're trying for death. There will be death. But for the bhaktas, devotees, there is deathlessness. Punar janma jayaya. For conquering over next birth. Rascal civilized man does not know what is next life, how death can be stopped. Nothing else. Big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gita, they do not understand. The so-called scholars, they do not understand. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gita. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Yad gatva na nivartante [Bg. 15.6]. They do not understand. They say, "What is this?" They do not understand. [break]
Bali Mardana: ...people could not enjoy so much in this life, they worry more about the next life.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bali Mardana: When people realize they cannot enjoy so much in this life, they worry more about what is going to happen to them in the next life.
Prabhupada: No, how does... They do not know what is next life?
Bali Mardana: They don't know.
Prabhupada: They make it zero. Therefore, closing the eye. "There is no next life. Finished. There is no next life." In that way they're satisfied. Just like the rabbit. There is danger, enemy, he closes his eyes. He thinks there is no danger. (devotees laugh) So these rascals are like that. Because they cannot accommodate that this life is so troublesome, again, next life... So that they can realize. Next life means again troublesome; that's why they sometimes commit suicide. They think that after suicide it will be zero, so no trouble. These are all ignorance.
Karandhara: In psychology that's called repression.
Prabhupada: Repression.
Karandhara: Taking something which is a fact, but refusing to believe it, pushing it out of your mind, repressing it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bali Mardana: There is a philosophy called Stoicism. They believe they... This life is meant to suffer, so they should just become very sturdy to suffer a great deal.
Prabhupada: So sturdy or not sturdy, you have to suffer. How you can check? We cannot change by simply... Becoming sturdy...
Bali Mardana: No, stoic.
Prabhupada: Ah. What is that?
Bali Mardana: It's a philosophy, a school of philosophy, stoic.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. What is their conclusion?
Bali Mardana: That the world is very, is full of suffering...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bali Mardana: ...so they become very sturdy to bear the suffering.
Yasodanandana: Emotionless.
Prabhupada: So one who can suffer without any protest, he's first-class man.
Bali Mardana: (laughs) Yeah.
Prabhupada: That means they do not know how to stop suffering.
Bali Mardana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: The... Here is one class, they're trying to become very strong to tolerate suffering, and other philosophies, they're making everything zero. There is no question of not suffering, but making zero. No suffering, nor neither suffering. Suffering or not..., both of them abolished, dismissed. This philosopher is... "This suffering cannot be dismissed. Therefore you be strong to tolerate it." Other philosophers they say, "There is suffering, so make it zero." But both of them have no information that there is real life where there is no suffering. Still there is life. That is Krsna consciousness. There is life, but no suffering.
Bali Mardana: They're like owls.
Prabhupada: Yes. (pause)
Bali Mardana: There's a river. [break]
Prabhupada: ...duhkha-nivrtti. Ultimately, stop of all sufferings. This is Krsna consciousness. Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). Simply ananda. Dancing with Krsna, rasa dance. Supposing if there is such life -- dancing and eating and chanting, no suffering. So would anybody deny that? Is there any such fool?
Bali Mardana: Yeah, they're all denying.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Bali Mardana: They deny. Just like the Puritans...
Prabhupada: No, no. Deny... You deny or accept, that is the... Suppose there is such life where you can simply dance, eat and live eternally, happy life. Would you not like to accept it?
Devotee (2): Yes, of course, anyone would.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Devotee (2): Anyone would like to accept that.
Prabhupada: You see? That we are giving.
Devotee (2): But they think no such thing would exist.
Prabhupada: They think, may think, but it is theoretical. Supposing there is such life, would you not accept it? You may believe, not believe. That is another chapter. First of all, this is our proposition, that there is a life like this. Would you like? So who would say "no"? Everyone will say, "Yes, I like." It is a question of understanding. There is such life, but because he is disappointed at being cheated, cheated, cheated, he thinks, "Here is also another cheating." Just see. Therefore Krsna consciousness preaching means to convince them that there is life like this. That is propaganda.
Bali Mardana: What would convince them that it is simply not another cheating?
Prabhupada: Yes, it is not cheating, it is fact.
Bali Mardana: But what would convince them of that? What qualities?
Prabhupada: Just see example, our. We are chanting, dancing, and eating nicely. What you are doing? You are simply talking nonsense. There is no peace in your life. And see our devotees in Krsna consciousness. This is the proof, practical proof.
Yasodanandana: Practical proof that they cannot get purified.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Yasodanandana: Even though they have big posts...
Prabhupada: No, either purify or... You come with us and you will be purified. Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, radha-krsna bolo sange calo, ei-matra bhikha cai. We don't want anything from you. You, I shall give you eating. I shall give you everything. You simply come with me and chant. This is our propaganda. We don't say that "You do this, do that." We don't do anything. Simply come with us and chant.
Bali Mardana: Just like the Catholic church, in different places around the world they feed the people.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Bali Mardana: But we cannot only... If we not only feed them, but give them chanting and dancing...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bali Mardana: ...they will accept it as superior.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (2): Actually we can see that happening very practically. At Spiritual Sky many big, big businessmen they come, and they see how these boys are making money and yet they are singing and dancing all the time. (laughs)
Prabhupada: This is practical. It's practical. Therefore in India we are considered as the richest community. They was a question in Parliament, "Wherefrom these Krsna consciousness movement they get their money?" And the Parliament would reply, Home Member, that "They get money by distributing literature." This is the reply. This is recorded in the Parliament, Indian Parliament.
Hrdayananda: Delhi.
Prabhupada: So if you simply push on our literature, then our movement is going, you must know. It is really going forward. And there will be no scarcity. You'll get everything. [break] Our neighbors they inquire, is it not? That, "You are living so happily, where do you get money?"
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: The storekeepers, they inquire. They're envious, that "How these people enjoying life without earning, without working hard?" Now whole Bombay is surprised when you purchased this land.
Bali Mardana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So much fighting was there. Immediately I went and purchase and everything stopped. (devotees laugh) They are surprised. This man, they... You know there are two very stubborn parties who have cheated. Chaganlal, he advanced fifty-one thousand as advance, and when there was question of settlement, so he came, he wanted that "If you give me three lakhs, then I'll compromise." So I was prepared to pay him three lakhs. So that Mr. Ganotra, Mayor, I induced him just to make settlement. Then down he came-two lakhs twenty-five thousand. Then asked Mrs. Nair, "Now you'll pay this..." Where I have got... If he takes all money, then what shall I get? Then I had to settle with her how much he will pay. So she came from one lakh to one lakh, forty thousand. So what is the balance?
Bali Mardana: Sixty. Sixty... Eighty-five thousand.
Prabhupada: Ah? Eighty-five. So I said, "Yes, I'll pay it. Settle up. The balance I'll pay." Eighty-five thousand. The other man, what is called? Ratna Parik?
Karandhara: Chaganlal.
Prabhupada: That Chaganlal this, I pay him extra eighty-five thousand. That is also black. No more white. So the black money was paid in this way, that the money was counted and it was put in a handbag, and it was locked by him. So the key was with him, and the bag was with me. As soon as court accepted the agreement, then I handed over, "Take this bag." Then again this Ratna Parik, he first of all proposed twenty thousand to sell that house. Then when I went there, he knew that he's settling at any cost, he said, "Now that twenty thousand was cost formerly. Now things have gone very high, I cannot sell." So he knows that we are eager to purchase. Then I said, "Then what do you want to do?" "Now I want thirty thousand." "All right, yes. Take it." I did not argue. In this way I settled up. And our Giriraja's father appreciated that "It is better a bad settlement than to prolong the case." So I took this policy. It is bad settlement, from twenty thousand to thirty thousand. But settled out. "I give you 85,000 black." But one thing I gain -- that by cancelling the agreement, their proposal was that increase the price, twenty lakhs from fourteen lakhs. That was the arrangement between the attorneys. They cancelled the agreement and take twenty lakhs from him, and the balance should be divided by..., amongst us. That was the agreement. So that addition of twenty lakhs I satisfied Mrs. Nair by fourteen lakhs fifty thousand.
Bali Mardana: Saves 500,000, lakhs.
Prabhupada: Yes. The attorneys were settling at seventeen lakhs, but by Krsna's grace I was able to settle up fourteen lakhs fifty thousand.
Bali Mardana: You were able to convince her to settle up for less.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: This was white?
Prabhupada: Ah? Yes, fourteen lakhs fifty thousand white.
Bali Mardana: She must've been very surprised to receive the money, such a large payment.
Prabhupada;: Yes. [break] ...only ten lakhs.
Bali Mardana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Then Karandhara sent... How much you sent?
Karandhara: Excuse me, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: What you sent?
Karandhara: Sent twenty thousand.
Prabhupada: Twenty thousand. That was... Not two lakhs, nowadays. Eight rupees. About one lakh sixty thousand. Then we had about three lakhs. In this way, somehow or other, we paid seven, more than sixteen lakhs. Black, white, everything.
Gurukrpa: For Krsna anything can be done.
Prabhupada: She was to be paid fourteen lakhs fifty thousand, then stamp duty two lakhs... Sixty thousand or six thousand? Then registration fee... Oh, it was very expensive. [break]
Devotee (2): ...that at the end of this month the United States will be destroyed by the comet, the Kahutek comet.
Prabhupada: Yes. Their demonic principles will be destroyed. They'll take to Krsna consciousness.
Devotees: Jaya, haribol!
Prabhupada: What do they say... After destruction, then what is next?
Devotee (2): Oh, they all move to Mexico and Canada, so they wouldn't be in the way of the destruction. They don't know what's going to happen after that.
Prabhupada: So at the time of danger they'll go away. Very good. (devotees laugh)
Bali Mardana: Lord Jesus came to save the fallen souls...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bali Mardana: ...they are all running away.
Prabhupada: They are so good Christian that at the time of danger, they're all going away to Canada. Just see-afraid of death, even though they are preaching themselves, priest, they are also the same common man, afraid of death. And if we people keep to Krsna consciousness, we are not afraid of death. For going from one place to another, that's all. Going home, nobody becomes afraid going back to home. He becomes pleased. [break] You avoid death, there is no death. Visaya.(?) If we simply practice this, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama... No more death. Finished death. This is a fact. [break] ...or do something for Krsna. Don't waste time, single moment. Then your... No more death. Because this is deathless condition. And the changing of the body, that is momentary, that is all.
Bali Mardana: So our service is deathless.
Prabhupada: Ah? Deathless...
Bali Mardana: Devotional service.
Prabhupada: ...yes, this is deathless position.
Bali Mardana: But if we stop serving...
Prabhupada: You admit or not, theologian? (devotee laughs) Eh? Eh? Or you have got anything to say? This is deathlessness.
Bali Mardana: Because the soul is acting.
Prabhupada: Yes. Ah?
Karandhara: Looks like it may start raining a bit, Prabhupada. We may cut over here.
Prabhupada: All right.
Karandhara: And I can bring the car over.
Prabhupada: No, no, what is that? We shall not die. (devotees laugh)
Bali Mardana: We will melt.
Prajapati: The soul cannot be wet.
Prabhupada: No, it is pleasant. Visvam purna-sukhayate. For a devotee, everything is very happy. There is no unhappiness. Any condition, they are happy. Visvam purna-sukhayate. For nondevotees everything is a problem. (devotees laugh) And for devotee everything is happiness. That is the difference.
Devotees: Jaya. (thunder sounds in background)
Prabhupada: This is fact. This is not imaginary..., I mean to say... Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. The suffering is due to sinful activities. So a devotee is not acting sinfully; he's fully surrendered... (end)

 

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A Kindly Slap For A Fool

Bombay, March 23, 1974
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Prabhupada: Just like, just like if you want to give me some food to eat. So you should give me to my mouth, not to my rectum. (laughter)Dr. Patel: But they are doing it now. We are giving enema. We treat with enema in America. (laughs) He said, he said that don't give these things to him because...
Prabhupada: No, no. That is, this is the reason: To give one food, there is the only one mouth. You cannot say, "Because there are so many holes, any hole."
Dr. Patel: But that is not the real..., I mean, real argument that you give...
Prabhupada: No, no, that's right.
Dr. Patel: But my question is...
Prabhupada: Avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: No, but they're...
Prabhupada: That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi-purvakam. But also, still, they are worshiping God.
Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone is part and parcel of God, but everyone is not God. That is the way. That any hole of my body, that is my body. But when food is to be taken, it is only this, not another, other hole. That is the way. [break] ...and if you are saying like that... Just like... Here... When you...
Dr. Patel: But it is of the... is doing that to you also. Why do you worry about it?
Prabhupada: No, no. When the...
Dr. Patel: We can give it in the vein also.
Prabhupada: No, no. (laughter.) That is not the way. That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: But... Listen. That is why I say, disease or no disease, vidhi's going to help your body and bring you nutrients, even given by intravenously or by rectum or by mouth. By any way.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But they are going to... He's going to...
Prabhupada: This is... This is for the nonsense. You see.
Dr. Patel: Having the... Why nonsense now?
Prabhupada: No, no. If the way is this, that food should be taken within the mouth...
Dr. Patel: But this is also... This is what is said by Krsna, by Himself in Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Avidhi-purvakam. Everything is seva, but avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: It may be seva, but...
Prabhupada: Just like Kamsa. Kamsa was thinking of Krsna always. But he's not a devotee. Avidhi-purvakam. No, that...
Dr. Patel: But he was not a bhakta. He was an enemy.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Therefore... He was thinking of Krsna, but still, he's not a devotee.
Dr. Patel: But here is the question of devotee: ye 'py anya-devata-bhaktah bhajante mam avidhi-purvakam. Bhakta. They are bhaktas, not enemies.
Prabhupada: No, no. Bhakta. One who worships God, he's a bhakta. Just like sometimes you have to go to the chief minister through his caparasi. But the caparasi is not the chief minister.
Dr. Patel: That's right. But a chief minister gets pleased through the caparasi. All right. (laughs)
Prabhupada: But if you, if you say...
Dr. Patel: Not my argument it is, eh? This is the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is wrong argument. You see... Just like our Hadaji Batlar (?), he was...
Dr. Patel: Now, how would it be wrong argument, sir? We are following the same process. We collected those foodstuffs... [break]
Prabhupada: ...commissioner is not the politician. Why do you mix them?
Dr. Patel: But Krsna was never a politician. He was a...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is a wrong theory. This is a wrong theory. You can approach somebody through somebody, but they are two, individual persons. [break] ...He is bhakta, yes.
Dr. Patel: "I am enjoyer of all the yajnas to whom, whatever and to whomever you are doing." How would you accept that...
Prabhupada: No, no. The king. The king is the proprietor of all taxes. But he's not a tax collector.
Dr. Patel: Now, now, Chando Bhai, come here.
Prabhupada: The king...
Guest (3) (Indian man): What do you want?
Prabhupada: ...is the proprietor...
Dr. Patel: Aham hi sarva-bhoktanam bhakto mam paramesvaram (?).
Prabhupada: Just like the king, and there are many tax collectors. So tax goes to the king.
Guest (3): Yes, king, yes.
Prabhupada: It does not belong to the tax collectors.
Guest (3): Correct.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] ...naham tesv avasthitah.
Guest (3): Correct. [break]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): So you transcend them.
Prabhupada: "Everything, everything is connected with Me, but I am not that." That is...
Guest (3): Much more than that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mattah sarva-bhutani, mat-sthaniti.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Guest (3): He's much more than that.
Prabhupada: Nobody can exist without Krsna. But that does not mean everybody's Krsna.
Dr. Patel: But there is nobody other than Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Excepting the jivas, as you say.
Prabhupada: No. Naham tesv avasthitah.
Dr. Patel: No, as I am reading the Bhagavata today, everything is emanating from Krsna. Even your jivas are part and parcel of Visnu's...
Prabhupada: Yes, that doesn't mean Krsna is jiva.
Dr. Patel: But he's evolved from everything, and nothing can exist without Krsna.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all right.
Dr. Patel: If that is the real thing, then, I mean, any, any other deva being worshiped as good as...
Prabhupada: Just like everything is material energy, but that does not mean this land is the sea. That is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: No, no, it is not...
Prabhupada: Everything is material. Everything is material. If you say, "Then the land and the sea is the same,"...
Dr. Patel: Yes!
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: It is not nonsense, and I'll...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: I am giving you the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is nonsense.
Bhagavata: Stool and sweet rice is the same.
Dr. Patel: As you are scientist, I'll tell you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Scientist...
Dr. Patel: Please...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I cannot hear this nonsense.
Dr. Patel: If you don't hear, then there will be no...
Prabhupada: No, no! No, no! There cannot be. If you say the sea and the land is the same, this is completely nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Nonsense in this present circumstances. You change the circumstances!
Prabhupada: Any circumstances! Any circumstances!
Dr. Patel: Other circumstances.
Prabhupada: Any circumstances! You cannot say... We say that this is matter. But you cannot say that land is water, water is land. You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: Would you please give me a hearing...
Prabhupada: No, no, everything is matter, that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is what I want to say.
Prabhupada: No, that I admit! That I admit. That is the difficulty of the Mayavadis. They cannot distinguish the varieties.
Guest (3): Land is the whole Brahman.
Prabhupada: Yes. The Mayavadi...
Dr. Patel: Whenever it is (?) a question of matter is evolved from maya. So we are Mayavadis, all of you and me.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Yes, because we are talking of maya.
Prabhupada: No, no. Maya means sakti. Maya means sakti.
Dr. Patel: That's it. Then sakti's of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Nothing can happen without the sakti. Nothing can happen without the energy.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but the...
Dr. Patel: You cannot move your finger...
Prabhupada: But you cannot avoid the varieties.
Dr. Patel: But variety is produced by...
Prabhupada: Just like in your body, this is your head, this is your hand. Everything is body. But if you say, "Everything is body," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: How can it be nonsense?
Prabhupada: Ah! It is nonsense!
Dr. Patel: That particular...
Prabhupada: Why there is separate name, "This is head, this is hand, this is leg."
Dr. Patel: When this thing, whole body, was in the embryo...
Prabhupada: Then it is called "unity in varieties." That is called.
Dr. Patel: And I will... Shall I speak?
Prabhupada: Yes. But you cannot say the head and the leg is the same!
Dr. Patel: Let me talk now.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that!
Dr. Patel: Shall I talk it now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: When this body was being manufactured in the embryo, in the womb.
Prabhupada: No, I know that you don't require this! I know that.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is matter. But it becomes varieties.
Dr. Patel: It was not matter to anyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That was also inside.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: In the seed there is the whole banyan tree.
Prabhupada: Yes, matter... They manifested into varieties. First of all, they, after sex intercourse, the two seminas is emulsified, and it becomes like a pea. And it develops into different parts of the body.
Dr. Patel: Right, but I, what I am coming to this point is that...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: ...even in Upanisad, from a small seed, big banyan tree has come out.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: And that...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: So seed is the real thing. And that seed is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So everything is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Again, everything is Krsna! Same nonsense, same nonsense. (laughs) Krsna says, "I am not that." Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesv avasthitah [Bg. 9.4].
Dr. Patel: Na tu mat-sthani bhutani pasya me, uh, aisvaram!
Prabhupada: Yes. So there is varieties.
Dr. Patel: But in the second... That is...
Prabhupada: So there is...
Dr. Patel: ...correction in the second sloka only.
Prabhupada: No, no! It is not correction. It is correction because we fools, we cannot understand Him clearly. "So although everything is existing in Me, I am not everything."
Dr. Patel: "Still, everything existing in Me." But...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: What is that?
Guest (3): Aham yogam aisvaram.
Dr. Patel: Yogam aisvaram.
Prabhupada: Just like in this hotel. There are so many furnitures, so many rooms. If you say, "Everything is hotel," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: Ah, but without furniture hotel cannot be? Without building, hotel cannot be. Without this...
Prabhupada: But why do you say, "It is furniture"?
Dr. Patel: ...parts, all this, the body cannot be.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am...
Prabhupada: Yes
Dr. Patel: I want to correct my intelligence.
Prabhupada: If you say the furniture is hotel, that means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but then you take out the furniture, hotel will not be there.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but you cannot say the furniture is the hotel.
Dr. Patel: I am arguing like a Buddha.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: But then, that is also an argument.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense argument. "Hotel is furniture."
Dr. Patel: Yes, it is.
Devotee: Buddha purposely made those... [break]
Prabhupada: You cannot say "Everything is hotel." "The furniture is hotel, the man is hotel, the food is hotel." What is this? There must be varieties.
Dr. Patel: So you have gone on the top of the tree. We are trying to give him the root.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) But you do not know how the root is manifested. Therefore you are less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: I am very less intelligent. I have no intelligence.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: The root is manifested from the seed.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: And that we are going to the seed...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: And not to the top of the tree.
Prabhupada: You cannot say, when the tree is grown, you cannot say, "The leaf is also root. The fruit is also root. The trunk is also root." This is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: This is what the Vedas...
Prabhupada: No, no. That, Vedas does not say. Veda is not so nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Then it is (indistinct) very differently I understand it.
Prabhupada: No, no. How you can say everything is the sa...? There is varieties. This is called acintya-bhedabheda-tattva philosophy. Simultaneously one and different. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a philosophy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like my the same example: the water is matter, and this is also matter. As matter, they're one, but as water, it is different; as land, it is different. This is simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: Bheda?
Guest (3): Bheda abheda. (break
Prabhupada: (laughs) ...thinking abheda. You are simply thinking that... That is your deficiency.
Dr. Patel: No, no. I will try to understand your bheda also. But abheda is more important for the present for me.
Prabhupada: No. That means you are less.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind become the least. Why less?
Prabhupada: But you should come to this, that there is, in the bheda, abheda, there is bhedas. In the abheda... It is very simple thing. That my hand is not different from my body, but still, hand is not body. It is... A child can understand.
Dr. Patel: But when the child grows, he does not understand it. That is the misfortune of this.
Prabhupada: That is...
Dr. Patel: Mayavada! Mayavada, no?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is Mayavada. (chuckles.) Acintya-bheda... This is right philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda. At the present moment we cannot think of how one thing is simultaneously one and different. Therefore it is acintya.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) [break]
Prabhupada: ...to eleven. Why not give me.
Dr. Patel: No, I have given all contribution. And we start with you when you are here.
Prabhupada: Then Bhagavata is compared to the body of Krsna. And Krsna worships begins from the feet.
Dr. Patel: I started and come up to His mouth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi... Then let me do it for avidhi-purvak, then I'll do it, vidhi-purvakam.
Prabhupada: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand.
Bhagavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupada... [break]
Prabhupada: Mayavadam asac-chastram pracchannam bauddham ucyate, pracchannam bauddham ucyate.
Dr. Patel: You call pracchanna, but I am open Buddha now, today, for the sake of argument. Let me understand it. There are various ways you can argue about the thing. God cannot be approached by argument...
Prabhupada: No, no. Your difficulty is you are not submissive. Therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I am, I am actually submissive.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But I want to... I cannot submit without understanding.
Prabhupada: But you... Because you...
Dr. Patel: That is what I want...
Prabhupada: But you should not... Because you do not submit, therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I cannot submit till I understanding.
Prabhupada: No, no. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. Pranipata, first of all, pranipata.
Dr. Patel: I am always doing pranipata.
Guest (3) (Indian man): Jnaninas tattva-darsinah.
Prabhupada: Ah!
Dr. Patel: I am doing pranipata to you. Do you think I am disrespecting you? If you take, then you pardon me.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. It is not the question of disrespecting, but that is not full surrender. You think that you know better than me.
Dr. Patel: I don't think so.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong.
Prabhupada: Therefore you talk of all this...
Dr. Patel: No, no. If you go on with that, I will not talk from tomorrow.
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: I want to learn myself.
Prabhupada: But that will be very good. If you don't talk, simply hear, it will be beneficial.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Now you don't talk then. When I say...
Prabhupada: (Chuckling) No, no. I say you, you simply hear. Don't talk.
Dr. Patel: All right.
Prabhupada: Then you'll understand.
Dr. Patel: And then, then, then I want to make you talk. What will I do?
Prabhupada: No. But your habit is as soon as we begin talks, immediately you talk.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Without hearing. And therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: I think, uh... No, I think... What way I will make you talk? You tell me the way. I will make you talk...
Prabhupada: And you'll hear first of all.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Let us hear.
Prabhupada: Then I... You are simply patient. Then if you cannot understand, you'll inquire. Not that you will think, "I know better than him. Therefore I shall talk." It will never help you to understand.
Dr. Patel: Well, if you run away with the idea that I am thinking that, it is wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no. You are, you are habituated to think like that.
Dr. Patel: I am habituated.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is your...
Dr. Patel: Habit is... Habit is habit. But I have got all respect for you. Don't say that I am thinking that.
Prabhupada: No, no. I know that. I know that.
Dr. Patel: That is... Don't run away with that idea that I am disrespecting you.
Prabhupada: And therefore I am pointing out your defects.
Dr. Patel: That's all right. I am prepared to correct it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But you, you keep mum. If I don't excite, you don't speak. So which way I shall excite you? (laughter throughout)
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of excitement. When you put a question, I shall answer it from the sastras. Just like it is, it is any child can understand. If I ask a child, "What is this?" "Hand." "What is this?" "Head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "Body"? So you are speaking less than a child. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Hm. That is what I am. That is what I am. That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Any child, if you ask him, "My dear child, what is this?" He'll say, "It is hand." "What is this?" "It is head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "All body"? You are speaking like that.
Dr. Patel: Like... How shall I speak? Shall I beat your body?
Prabhupada: No, no. (laughter) Don't speak.
Dr. Patel: Where is the right way?
Prabhupada: No, no. Any gentleman says... It is right? If I ask a child, "What is this?" What he'll say? "It is hand." Will he say, "It is head"? Then? You are speaking like less than a child.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now, Mr. Sar!
Dr. Patel: No, he will not say anything because he's a baniya (?). He'll reserve his opinion.
Guest (4) (Indian man): To answer the scripture... [break]
Prabhupada: No, no. Vedic system is...
Guest (3): You know, all these... [break]
Prabhupada: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, sadhi mam prapannam. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. That is required.
Guest (3): Guru expects from you that thing... [break]
Prabhupada: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone...
Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... [break]
Prabhupada: According to our Vaisnava principles, adau gurvasrayam, the first business is to accept a spiritual master. Sad-dharma-prccha. Then one has to inquire about sad-dharma. Sadhu-marganugamanam. One should follow the footprints of the previous acaryas. This is the process, one after another. So first thing is adau gurvasrayam, one has to accept a guru. So you may, you should, I mean to say, check whether he's guru or not. That is allowed. It is said for one year the sisya and the guru should meet together...
Dr. Patel: And don't talk.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, the guru, I mean, the aspirant sisya will hear and study whether he's actually fit for becoming guru. Similarly, the guru will also study that whether he's actually fit for becoming a... Just like in our society. We don't accept immediately. We don't give initiation immediately. First of all lives for some time. Then when he becomes eager, we give the first initiation, chanting Hare Krsna mantra. Then after one year, when he's fit, he's doing everything well, then we initiate him. This is our process. [break] Yes.
Dr. Patel: So if you don't hear near me, so that is the misfortune of all...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. You are a learned gentleman.
Dr. Patel: He's learning.
Prabhupada: A learned gentleman, that is another thing, yes. And we are preaching. We must talk on the point of philosophy. That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: So we have made up now. Don't worry. [break]
Guest (3): You cannot argue what he says.
Dr. Patel: No... That is the way. You see, I am trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Sometimes you say nice, and sometimes you also fire me. So what this, what I am to understand about our relationship?
Prabhupada: You should be fired always. (laughter) But if I do not say sometimes nice, then it will be dangerous.
Dr. Patel: Then why you'll understand that this is all humbug?
Bhagavata: Srila Prabhupada, you can tell us the qualifications of guru and the qualifications of disciple?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very simple thing. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. So this is the qualification of cela. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta. One has to accept a guru. Who? Jijnasu. What kind of jijnasu. (Hindi) Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. "What is the best ultimate goal of life?" Such person will require a guru. Those who are interested with these material affairs, they do not require a guru.
Dr. Patel: They require Einstein as a guru.
Prabhupada: No. No, no. Real guru means those who are interested in these material affairs, they do not require a guru. It is... It is a fashion. "Such man has kept such and such guru." Just like keeping a dog. This is not guru.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) That is good.
Prabhupada: Keeping a guru, and "Guru, come here, come here, guru." (laughter) Not like that. That is useless. And this is the qualification of cela. Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. One who is interested with the Absolute Truth. That requires, he requires a guru. And guru means, sabde pare ca nisnatam. Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the qualification. Sabde, he's, in the Vedic knowledge, he's perfect. Sabde pare ca. Nisnatam. He has immersed himself in that ocean. And the result is brahmany upasama..., he has no more material interests, simply Brahman. That's all. How simple it is, the qualification of cela and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap: asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one."
Dr. Patel: So you told me the same thing. Very good. I must be proud that I am going to be lion(?). That is what you mean to say.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is the guru's... Guru's business is, when he talks much, he says, "All right, it is all right," but when he accepts guru slaps.
Dr. Patel: Choke him up. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes. How mildly He says: Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams... [Bg. 2.11]. "You do not know what is what..."
Dr. Patel: "You are a fool."
Prabhupada: "You are a fool number one." Nanusocanti panditah. He says, "A pandita does not like this." That means, "You are a murkha." Indirectly, He said, "A pandita does not do this. Now you learn." Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram... [Bg. 2.13]. He began to speak Bhagavad-gita.
Dr. Patel: Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti...
Prabhupada: Nanusocanti. The body, either dead or living, the pandita has nothing to care about. But the whole world is taking care of the body.
Dr. Patel: Because the world is body conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are all... None of them are panditas. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is described as ass and cow.
Dr. Patel: Go-kharah.
Prabhupada: Ah, go-kharah. Yes. You have heard so many things. [break] ...buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih. Kalatradisu, attached.
Dr. Patel: Wife and others.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhauma-ijya-dhih. And land, "This is my country, this is my home, this is ijya," bhauma-ijya-dhih. Ijya means worshipable. As all these leaders, so-called nationalists, they are under the concept of this body, and their country, their home, is worshipable. Bhauma-ijya-dhih, yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij janesv abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. [break] Now...
Dr. Patel: And Hindus... (laughs)
Prabhupada: Go va kharo va. The same thing. Go is little useful because it supplies milk, and kharah is useful. You overburden him.
Dr. Patel: No, we were giving milk of kharah to the children in the hospital.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because that is as good as the mother's milk.
Prabhupada: Everything has got his use, but still, go-kharah is go-kharah.
Dr. Patel: This is also creation of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And useful.
Prabhupada: No, useful.
Dr. Patel: Nothing, nothing which is not in...
Prabhupada: No, useful, that's all right. Again your coming to this, "Therefore everything is Krsna." That is not conclusion.
Dr. Patel: No, I did not say everything is again. You are misinterpreting me before these boys.
Prabhupada: No, you'll come to that.
Dr. Patel: I don't come to that. I say everything is made by Krsna which is useful. Nothing... It is not useful is made by Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are purnasya, purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate. Purnam adah purnam idam [Iso Invocation]. Everything created by Krsna, that is perfect. He does not create anything useless. Just like this sea water is salty. Why it is salty? If it is not salty, then it cannot be preserved. Therefore it is salty. You have to take water. But it is made salty. The process is... It is distilled by the sun, and then you are supplied. Just see how perfectly it is done. It is put onto the top of the hills, and it comes as river. This is God's creation.
Bhagavata: Complete.
Prabhupada: Complete, yes. Complete... Complete intelligence.
Bhagavata: But we make it incomplete.
Dr. Patel: How can you make anything incomplete. You have no power to... [break]
Prabhupada: ...instruction from the Complete, Krsna.
Dr. Patel: So don't say "we." We are nothing.
Prabhupada: We take instruction from the Complete, not partial. Partial instruction may be good partially. But complete is complete. [break] ...purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
Dr. Patel: That is, then what do you... How you are saying that?
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna... Krsna is expanding Himself in so many ways. Still, He's Krsna. He's not impersonal. The Mayavadi says, "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore no more Krsna. Krsna is finished." Because this is Mayavada. "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore there is no personal Krsna." This is Mayavada philosophy. But the Upanisads say, "No, even though He has expanded in so many thousands ways, still He's Krsna."
Dr. Patel: But even Bhagavata says that even though He was born as an embodied, He was still so in His eternal place there.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is purna. It does not mean... Just like isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. He's staying in everyone's heart. That does not mean He's finished. He's still there. That is Krsna. Maya tatam idam sarvam. "And still, don't think that I am there."
Dr. Patel: Avyakta-murtina.
Prabhupada: Yes. Avyakta-murtina. That is avyakta. His impersonal feature is avyakta. But His personal feature is vyakta.
Dr. Patel: His personal feature is in Goloka.
Prabhupada: No. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhutah [Bs. 5.37]. That is Krsna. Although He's always existing in Goloka Vrndavana, He's everywhere. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.35]. This is Krsna consciousness.
Makhanalal: There was that one notable, so-called incarnation. He supposedly lost all his potency be...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: He said he gave away all his potency...
Prabhupada: He's a rascal. What potency he has got?
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupada: Any rascal who has called himself incarnation of God. There are so many rascals.
Makhanalal: Wasn't that Ramakrishna who said he gave away everything; he had nothing more except...
Prabhupada: What Ramakrishna? Don't talk of these nonsense. Simply they have misled. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Simply you bhaja Krsna and don't think anything else. And you get all your intelligence there.
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna has said, mam ekam. "Don't go to these foolish rascals." Mam ekam. Otherwise you'll be misled. Because they are misleaders, rascals.
Dr. Patel: You are so very hard.
Prabhupada: I must be hard!
Dr. Patel: Hard, harsh, and hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: The whole world is spoiled for these Mayavadis. Therefore I am very much hard.
Dr. Patel: What... I don't say hard. Hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: No, we must be harder and harder.
Dr. Patel: Hard and harsh! Doesn't matter...
Prabhupada: I don't make any compromise with these rascals. No words. No, no. I never made that. Even if I don't get any disciples, I'll be satisfied. But I can't make any compromise like these rascals. I cannot make. Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tara sahasrasah. If I create one moon, that is sufficient. I don't want many stars. That was my Guru Maharaja's principle, and that is my principle. What is the use of having number of fools and rascals? If one man understands rightly, he can deliver the whole world. [break]
Guest (3): Do you mean the other persons...?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Own one who cannot understand rightly. That is another rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: Understanding God is always supraconscious with them. Never by the mind.
Prabhupada: They... One has to rise, rise... understand rightly from the right person. He cannot. He's imperfect. How he can understand rightly?
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: If a man has seen a place, that man will show you that place. That is how it is.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): But to reach that place there are several ways.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, tattva-darsinah. You have to approach a person who has seen the truth. You don't manufacture your own truth. That will be misleading. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic instruction. In order to understand scientifically, you must approach a guru.
Guest (3): And with a clean slate.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guest (3): With a clean slate of his mind.
Prabhupada: Yes. Samit-panih srotriyam.
Dr. Patel: It is complete spirit of submission.
Prabhupada: Submission. Because...
Dr. Patel: And inquiry also.
Prabhupada: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated
Prabhupada: Yes. But the westerners are not that. [break] ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many western men.
Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose...,
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...in the educational system...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): Inquiring of anything and every...
Prabhupada: No, inquiring submissively. Not that challenging. If one challenges to inquire, he'll never be benefited.
Dr. Patel: That is how... Even we have seen inquiring so intelligently. That man was such a big mathematical genius... [break]
Prabhupada: Knowledge cannot be acquired by challenge. Knowledge is acquired by submission. That is the process.
Dr. Patel: But I don't think I am challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why you are taking?
Dr. Patel: I am fixing the aruni (?) with another aruni. So you tell these boys I'm not challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. I am talking of the process, not of you personally. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise these people will go away with an idea that I am here to challenge you.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Guest (3): Nobody can challenge anybody. A Vaisnava... [break]
Prabhupada: ...thing is to be done submissively, pranipatena. Two things. Inquiry must be guided by two things: submission and seva.
Dr. Patel: First, according to Bhagavad-gita, most importance is sraddha... [break]
Prabhupada: ...jnanam. So that is the beginning. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. Atha bhajana-kriya. These are the step by step. Atha anartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah athasaktis tato bhavas sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the krama. Krama-patha. Everything is there in our Vedic literature. One has to study cool-headed, and he'll get the things. [break] ...ment of Krsna consciousness or spiritual consciousness is based on sraddha. Just like Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one actually has sraddha, "Yes, Krsna says like this, then I'll accept Krsna." That is sraddha. "Krsna says... Oh, Krsna says like this. Why shall I surrender to Him?" That is not sraddha. Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one accepts this principle, then there is sraddha. That is explained by Caitanya-caritamrta (indistinct):
sraddha-sabde -- visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya
krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya
 [Cc. Madhya  22.62]
This is sraddha. Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Firm faith. "Yes, Krsna has said that mam ekam saranam vraja, I will accept it. I will accept it. Even I do not understand, I will accept it." That is called visvasa sudrdha niscaya. And faith means krsne bhakti, "If I surrender to Krsna, then my all perfection is there." This is called sraddha.
Dr. Patel: I... Shall I ask you one thing?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] As soon as...
Dr. Patel: What are the papas and what are the punyas?
Prabhupada: Papa means so long you accept this material body.
Dr. Patel: Is papa.
Prabhupada: Is papa. Either you accept as, a material body as Brahma or as insignificant ant, it is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything is papa. Anything is papa. Anything which you make removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Just like outlaw. Outlaw means who does not care for the government laws. Similarly, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. The law means dharma, law. Dharma means to accept the laws of God. And what is the law? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the law. If one cannot accept this, then he's outlaw. Immediately.
Dr. Patel: And that is papa.
Prabhupada: That is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything which makes you removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: That is what I could not understand.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Anything means this is also: Krsna says, "You surrender," and if I do not surrender, that is papa. (sound of kirtana in background, approaching temple)
Guest (5) (Indian man): But serving to poor is serving the whole...
Prabhupada: (laughs) Again that disease. It has become a disease.
Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Is that called punya?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Guest (5): Serving the poor?
Prabhupada: What is the use of your serving poor? Are you serving the poor? Why do you talk like that?
Guest (5): I want to ask you.
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, are you serving the poor?
Guest (5): Yes, sir. I am a doctor. And we see only poverty. So I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Then, then every... So every patient is a poor, and every doctor is punyavan.
Dr. Patel: Ha, every doctor is a fool. Like me.
Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Swamiji...
Dr. Patel: Swami, Swami answered.
Prabhupada: This has become a slogan, "Serving the poor." Where is the sastra? Where Bhagavad-gita it is said, "Serving the poor?"
Guest (5): It doesn't say. No, I know. But...
Prabhupada: You are yourself poor. How you can serve? (laughter)
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)
Guest (5): No. Yes, I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That's all right. We should... First of all, we should know that "I am the poorest of the poor."
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: So first of all let me become rich. Then I shall serve. (pause) [break] Hare Krsna beat. (sound of kirtana in background) People will come and hear Hare Krsna. This slogan has spread, "If I serve the poor..." And what you have got, you will serve the poor? You have to work like an ass to earn your livelihood, and you are going to serve the poor.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) What is meant by service?
Prabhupada: No, and the poor cannot be served. Service, service to be rendered to the higher authority.
Guest (3): By serving poor, you are serving yourself.
Prabhupada: No, serving nobody. Now, Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission... Just hear, doctor. Ah. Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission, when I went to America, I met him. He said that "The Americans are asking that 'You take money from us for serving the poor.' But when we go to India, we simply see poor men are lying on the footpath. So what you are doing with this money?" You see? This is a plea for collection of money, "to serve the poor." What... [break] Yes. I know in America there are so many foundations. You see? And there are so many cheats also. They found a society. And the managers of the foundations, they have got plea, and they get out all the money. I have seen. Who was that? That Mr. Bogus? No, Bogart. Bogart. I used to call him "Mr. Bogus." (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Americans are very clever at using money.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have made a clique with the managers of the foundation, and they present by literature all lies. The subject matter is India. "Oh, so many people are starving, so many..." In this way they take money from the managers, and it is divided amongst themselves.
Dr. Patel: They are the (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhava-bhuti: Also, Prabhupada, there was one report that the Red Cross, seventy-five percent of the money collected went on advertising.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Dr. Patel: America is living on advertisement. Right or wrong? I have been studying American, I mean, psychology.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I understand.
Dr. Patel: Psychology.
Prabhupada: That I understand.
Dr. Patel: And they really are purely running away without... They have no peace of mind.[break]
Prabhupada: The other day one American devotee, he said, "Sir, I see..." He first came, "I see the poorest man here is happier than the richest man in my country." He said like that.
Dr. Patel: Because they have got no peace of mind.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And every...
Prabhupada: And that is... [break]
Dr. Patel: This, any act of competition is a sin and a violence against...
Prabhupada: [break] ...competition even Krsna. Krishnamurti's competition even Krsna. You know that?
Dr. Patel: No, I didn't know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Krishnamurti, I read a couple of books. He said that nothing, everything...
Prabhupada: Does he say anything about Krsna?
Dr. Patel: Yes, he does say.
Prabhupada: What does he say?
Dr. Patel: He says the Krsna's all names are all, God is also His name. Because the God, it is Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. What does he say about personal Krsna? Does he know anything?
Bhagavata: He said, "You are your own guru," Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is...
Devotee: I have heard him.
Prabhupada: You see? Krsna says, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet... [MU 1.2.12]. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. He says, "Everyone is guru." Just see. "Everyone is guru." Then why you are instructing? Why you are becoming guru?
Dr. Patel: He's not becoming guru of anybody.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why does he say that "You do this"? That is guru. Guru means one who orders. That is guru. That means you reject all other gurus... That means... He means to say that "You reject all other gurus. Accept me guru." That's all.
Guest (3): That is not... That is what he...
Prabhupada: That is competition.
Guest (3): All gurus are like that. All gurus are like that.
Bhava-bhuti:. He's writing many books saying "There's no need for books."
Prabhupada: Accha. Now see. He says, "There is no need of books." And he writes books, Krsna books.
Guest (3): Yes. Yes. What you have
Bhagavata: He said, Everything is within you. So you are your own guru and..."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Bhagavata: ...everything will be revealed to you."
Dr. Patel: It may be within him, all right. He must drag it out.
Prabhupada: No, no. Now, just see how he is making nonsense competition.
Guest (3): Vasarambhanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Vasarambhanam.
Dr. Patel: Vasarambhanam caro namadheyam (?). [break]
Prabhupada: He's writing books, and he says, "There is no need of books."
Guest (3): He has written so many books, not one.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...nonsense. Directly. You, that... Our, our criterion is, because we are Krsna conscious people, Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
 [Bg. 7.15]
So anyone we see that he does not know about Krsna, he's a mudha.
Dr. Patel: Catur-vidha bhajante mam...
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dr. Patel: I think we are of one of those four categories. Or we are also mudha?
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: No. At least, give us some claim. (laughs)
Prabhupada: You are, you are catur-vidha.
Guest (3): Artharthi.
Prabhupada: Not artharthi. Jnani. No, I must give the proper position. Jnani...
Dr. Patel: You have, you have admitted at the end, before these boys.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: You have rehabilitated me. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: ...pious, how you would come daily to see the mangala-arati? This is the proof.
Dr. Patel: That is, we are, we are brought up like that from our...
Prabhupada: That is, that means you are pious.
Guest (3): You are pious.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Sucinam sukrtam grhe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): Yoga-bhrasta...
Dr. Patel: Yoga-bhrasta... [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: Sufi philosophy, there's one professor, so-called professor, Baba Ramdas. He says there's no need for talking, but he has many thousands of followers. They all gather around him.
Prabhupada: But he's talking.
Makhanalal: Yes. But he's talking.
Prabhupada: He's talking. These are the defects.
Dr. Patel: Huh?
Prabhupada: Some rascal has said that "There is no need of talking." But this is also talking, "There is no need of talking." Why he's talking?
Dr. Patel: Just a rascal says, "There is no need of cutting."
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing.
Makhanalal: But he is trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: Sevaya pranipatena. Sevaya. [break]
Dr. Patel: I, I... Do you like it? I have to ask you.
Prabhupada: No. Thank you so much.
Dr. Patel: Do you like it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I wear it for you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: All this... How do you like? [break] (kirtana) (end)

 

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