Bombay, March 23, 1974
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Prabhupada: Just like, just like if
you want to give me some food to eat. So you should give me to my mouth, not to
my rectum. (laughter)Dr. Patel: But they are doing it now. We are giving
enema. We treat with enema in America. (laughs) He said, he said that don't give
these things to him because...
Prabhupada: No, no. That is, this is the reason: To give one food, there is the only one mouth. You cannot say, "Because there are so many holes, any hole."
Dr. Patel: But that is not the real..., I mean, real argument that you give...
Prabhupada: No, no, that's right.
Dr. Patel: But my question is...
Prabhupada: Avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: No, but they're...
Prabhupada: That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi-purvakam. But also, still, they are worshiping God.
Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone is part and parcel of God, but everyone is not God. That is the way. That any hole of my body, that is my body. But when food is to be taken, it is only this, not another, other hole. That is the way. [break] ...and if you are saying like that... Just like... Here... When you...
Dr. Patel: But it is of the... is doing that to you also. Why do you worry about it?
Prabhupada: No, no. When the...
Dr. Patel: We can give it in the vein also.
Prabhupada: No, no. (laughter.) That is not the way. That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: But... Listen. That is why I say, disease or no disease, vidhi's going to help your body and bring you nutrients, even given by intravenously or by rectum or by mouth. By any way.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But they are going to... He's going to...
Prabhupada: This is... This is for the nonsense. You see.
Dr. Patel: Having the... Why nonsense now?
Prabhupada: No, no. If the way is this, that food should be taken within the mouth...
Dr. Patel: But this is also... This is what is said by Krsna, by Himself in Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Avidhi-purvakam. Everything is seva, but avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: It may be seva, but...
Prabhupada: Just like Kamsa. Kamsa was thinking of Krsna always. But he's not a devotee. Avidhi-purvakam. No, that...
Dr. Patel: But he was not a bhakta. He was an enemy.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Therefore... He was thinking of Krsna, but still, he's not a devotee.
Dr. Patel: But here is the question of devotee: ye 'py anya-devata-bhaktah bhajante mam avidhi-purvakam. Bhakta. They are bhaktas, not enemies.
Prabhupada: No, no. Bhakta. One who worships God, he's a bhakta. Just like sometimes you have to go to the chief minister through his caparasi. But the caparasi is not the chief minister.
Dr. Patel: That's right. But a chief minister gets pleased through the caparasi. All right. (laughs)
Prabhupada: But if you, if you say...
Dr. Patel: Not my argument it is, eh? This is the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is wrong argument. You see... Just like our Hadaji Batlar (?), he was...
Dr. Patel: Now, how would it be wrong argument, sir? We are following the same process. We collected those foodstuffs... [break]
Prabhupada: ...commissioner is not the politician. Why do you mix them?
Dr. Patel: But Krsna was never a politician. He was a...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is a wrong theory. This is a wrong theory. You can approach somebody through somebody, but they are two, individual persons. [break] ...He is bhakta, yes.
Dr. Patel: "I am enjoyer of all the yajnas to whom, whatever and to whomever you are doing." How would you accept that...
Prabhupada: No, no. The king. The king is the proprietor of all taxes. But he's not a tax collector.
Dr. Patel: Now, now, Chando Bhai, come here.
Prabhupada: The king...
Guest (3) (Indian man): What do you want?
Prabhupada: ...is the proprietor...
Dr. Patel: Aham hi sarva-bhoktanam bhakto mam paramesvaram (?).
Prabhupada: Just like the king, and there are many tax collectors. So tax goes to the king.
Guest (3): Yes, king, yes.
Prabhupada: It does not belong to the tax collectors.
Guest (3): Correct.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] ...naham tesv avasthitah.
Guest (3): Correct. [break]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): So you transcend them.
Prabhupada: "Everything, everything is connected with Me, but I am not that." That is...
Guest (3): Much more than that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mattah sarva-bhutani, mat-sthaniti.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Guest (3): He's much more than that.
Prabhupada: Nobody can exist without Krsna. But that does not mean everybody's Krsna.
Dr. Patel: But there is nobody other than Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Excepting the jivas, as you say.
Prabhupada: No. Naham tesv avasthitah.
Dr. Patel: No, as I am reading the Bhagavata today, everything is emanating from Krsna. Even your jivas are part and parcel of Visnu's...
Prabhupada: Yes, that doesn't mean Krsna is jiva.
Dr. Patel: But he's evolved from everything, and nothing can exist without Krsna.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all right.
Dr. Patel: If that is the real thing, then, I mean, any, any other deva being worshiped as good as...
Prabhupada: Just like everything is material energy, but that does not mean this land is the sea. That is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: No, no, it is not...
Prabhupada: Everything is material. Everything is material. If you say, "Then the land and the sea is the same,"...
Dr. Patel: Yes!
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: It is not nonsense, and I'll...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: I am giving you the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is nonsense.
Bhagavata: Stool and sweet rice is the same.
Dr. Patel: As you are scientist, I'll tell you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Scientist...
Dr. Patel: Please...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I cannot hear this nonsense.
Dr. Patel: If you don't hear, then there will be no...
Prabhupada: No, no! No, no! There cannot be. If you say the sea and the land is the same, this is completely nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Nonsense in this present circumstances. You change the circumstances!
Prabhupada: Any circumstances! Any circumstances!
Dr. Patel: Other circumstances.
Prabhupada: Any circumstances! You cannot say... We say that this is matter. But you cannot say that land is water, water is land. You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: Would you please give me a hearing...
Prabhupada: No, no, everything is matter, that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is what I want to say.
Prabhupada: No, that I admit! That I admit. That is the difficulty of the Mayavadis. They cannot distinguish the varieties.
Guest (3): Land is the whole Brahman.
Prabhupada: Yes. The Mayavadi...
Dr. Patel: Whenever it is (?) a question of matter is evolved from maya. So we are Mayavadis, all of you and me.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Yes, because we are talking of maya.
Prabhupada: No, no. Maya means sakti. Maya means sakti.
Dr. Patel: That's it. Then sakti's of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Nothing can happen without the sakti. Nothing can happen without the energy.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but the...
Dr. Patel: You cannot move your finger...
Prabhupada: But you cannot avoid the varieties.
Dr. Patel: But variety is produced by...
Prabhupada: Just like in your body, this is your head, this is your hand. Everything is body. But if you say, "Everything is body," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: How can it be nonsense?
Prabhupada: Ah! It is nonsense!
Dr. Patel: That particular...
Prabhupada: Why there is separate name, "This is head, this is hand, this is leg."
Dr. Patel: When this thing, whole body, was in the embryo...
Prabhupada: Then it is called "unity in varieties." That is called.
Dr. Patel: And I will... Shall I speak?
Prabhupada: Yes. But you cannot say the head and the leg is the same!
Dr. Patel: Let me talk now.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that!
Dr. Patel: Shall I talk it now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: When this body was being manufactured in the embryo, in the womb.
Prabhupada: No, I know that you don't require this! I know that.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is matter. But it becomes varieties.
Dr. Patel: It was not matter to anyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That was also inside.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: In the seed there is the whole banyan tree.
Prabhupada: Yes, matter... They manifested into varieties. First of all, they, after sex intercourse, the two seminas is emulsified, and it becomes like a pea. And it develops into different parts of the body.
Dr. Patel: Right, but I, what I am coming to this point is that...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: ...even in Upanisad, from a small seed, big banyan tree has come out.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: And that...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: So seed is the real thing. And that seed is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So everything is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Again, everything is Krsna! Same nonsense, same nonsense. (laughs) Krsna says, "I am not that." Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesv avasthitah [Bg. 9.4].
Dr. Patel: Na tu mat-sthani bhutani pasya me, uh, aisvaram!
Prabhupada: Yes. So there is varieties.
Dr. Patel: But in the second... That is...
Prabhupada: So there is...
Dr. Patel: ...correction in the second sloka only.
Prabhupada: No, no! It is not correction. It is correction because we fools, we cannot understand Him clearly. "So although everything is existing in Me, I am not everything."
Dr. Patel: "Still, everything existing in Me." But...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: What is that?
Guest (3): Aham yogam aisvaram.
Dr. Patel: Yogam aisvaram.
Prabhupada: Just like in this hotel. There are so many furnitures, so many rooms. If you say, "Everything is hotel," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: Ah, but without furniture hotel cannot be? Without building, hotel cannot be. Without this...
Prabhupada: But why do you say, "It is furniture"?
Dr. Patel: ...parts, all this, the body cannot be.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am...
Prabhupada: Yes
Dr. Patel: I want to correct my intelligence.
Prabhupada: If you say the furniture is hotel, that means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but then you take out the furniture, hotel will not be there.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but you cannot say the furniture is the hotel.
Dr. Patel: I am arguing like a Buddha.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: But then, that is also an argument.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense argument. "Hotel is furniture."
Dr. Patel: Yes, it is.
Devotee: Buddha purposely made those... [break]
Prabhupada: You cannot say "Everything is hotel." "The furniture is hotel, the man is hotel, the food is hotel." What is this? There must be varieties.
Dr. Patel: So you have gone on the top of the tree. We are trying to give him the root.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) But you do not know how the root is manifested. Therefore you are less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: I am very less intelligent. I have no intelligence.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: The root is manifested from the seed.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: And that we are going to the seed...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: And not to the top of the tree.
Prabhupada: You cannot say, when the tree is grown, you cannot say, "The leaf is also root. The fruit is also root. The trunk is also root." This is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: This is what the Vedas...
Prabhupada: No, no. That, Vedas does not say. Veda is not so nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Then it is (indistinct) very differently I understand it.
Prabhupada: No, no. How you can say everything is the sa...? There is varieties. This is called acintya-bhedabheda-tattva philosophy. Simultaneously one and different. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a philosophy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like my the same example: the water is matter, and this is also matter. As matter, they're one, but as water, it is different; as land, it is different. This is simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: Bheda?
Guest (3): Bheda abheda. (break
Prabhupada: (laughs) ...thinking abheda. You are simply thinking that... That is your deficiency.
Dr. Patel: No, no. I will try to understand your bheda also. But abheda is more important for the present for me.
Prabhupada: No. That means you are less.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind become the least. Why less?
Prabhupada: But you should come to this, that there is, in the bheda, abheda, there is bhedas. In the abheda... It is very simple thing. That my hand is not different from my body, but still, hand is not body. It is... A child can understand.
Dr. Patel: But when the child grows, he does not understand it. That is the misfortune of this.
Prabhupada: That is...
Dr. Patel: Mayavada! Mayavada, no?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is Mayavada. (chuckles.) Acintya-bheda... This is right philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda. At the present moment we cannot think of how one thing is simultaneously one and different. Therefore it is acintya.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) [break]
Prabhupada: ...to eleven. Why not give me.
Dr. Patel: No, I have given all contribution. And we start with you when you are here.
Prabhupada: Then Bhagavata is compared to the body of Krsna. And Krsna worships begins from the feet.
Dr. Patel: I started and come up to His mouth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi... Then let me do it for avidhi-purvak, then I'll do it, vidhi-purvakam.
Prabhupada: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand.
Bhagavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupada... [break]
Prabhupada: Mayavadam asac-chastram pracchannam bauddham ucyate, pracchannam bauddham ucyate.
Dr. Patel: You call pracchanna, but I am open Buddha now, today, for the sake of argument. Let me understand it. There are various ways you can argue about the thing. God cannot be approached by argument...
Prabhupada: No, no. Your difficulty is you are not submissive. Therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I am, I am actually submissive.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But I want to... I cannot submit without understanding.
Prabhupada: But you... Because you...
Dr. Patel: That is what I want...
Prabhupada: But you should not... Because you do not submit, therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I cannot submit till I understanding.
Prabhupada: No, no. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. Pranipata, first of all, pranipata.
Dr. Patel: I am always doing pranipata.
Guest (3) (Indian man): Jnaninas tattva-darsinah.
Prabhupada: Ah!
Dr. Patel: I am doing pranipata to you. Do you think I am disrespecting you? If you take, then you pardon me.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. It is not the question of disrespecting, but that is not full surrender. You think that you know better than me.
Dr. Patel: I don't think so.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong.
Prabhupada: Therefore you talk of all this...
Dr. Patel: No, no. If you go on with that, I will not talk from tomorrow.
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: I want to learn myself.
Prabhupada: But that will be very good. If you don't talk, simply hear, it will be beneficial.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Now you don't talk then. When I say...
Prabhupada: (Chuckling) No, no. I say you, you simply hear. Don't talk.
Dr. Patel: All right.
Prabhupada: Then you'll understand.
Dr. Patel: And then, then, then I want to make you talk. What will I do?
Prabhupada: No. But your habit is as soon as we begin talks, immediately you talk.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Without hearing. And therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: I think, uh... No, I think... What way I will make you talk? You tell me the way. I will make you talk...
Prabhupada: And you'll hear first of all.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Let us hear.
Prabhupada: Then I... You are simply patient. Then if you cannot understand, you'll inquire. Not that you will think, "I know better than him. Therefore I shall talk." It will never help you to understand.
Dr. Patel: Well, if you run away with the idea that I am thinking that, it is wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no. You are, you are habituated to think like that.
Dr. Patel: I am habituated.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is your...
Dr. Patel: Habit is... Habit is habit. But I have got all respect for you. Don't say that I am thinking that.
Prabhupada: No, no. I know that. I know that.
Dr. Patel: That is... Don't run away with that idea that I am disrespecting you.
Prabhupada: And therefore I am pointing out your defects.
Dr. Patel: That's all right. I am prepared to correct it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But you, you keep mum. If I don't excite, you don't speak. So which way I shall excite you? (laughter throughout)
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of excitement. When you put a question, I shall answer it from the sastras. Just like it is, it is any child can understand. If I ask a child, "What is this?" "Hand." "What is this?" "Head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "Body"? So you are speaking less than a child. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Hm. That is what I am. That is what I am. That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Any child, if you ask him, "My dear child, what is this?" He'll say, "It is hand." "What is this?" "It is head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "All body"? You are speaking like that.
Dr. Patel: Like... How shall I speak? Shall I beat your body?
Prabhupada: No, no. (laughter) Don't speak.
Dr. Patel: Where is the right way?
Prabhupada: No, no. Any gentleman says... It is right? If I ask a child, "What is this?" What he'll say? "It is hand." Will he say, "It is head"? Then? You are speaking like less than a child.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now, Mr. Sar!
Dr. Patel: No, he will not say anything because he's a baniya (?). He'll reserve his opinion.
Guest (4) (Indian man): To answer the scripture... [break]
Prabhupada: No, no. Vedic system is...
Guest (3): You know, all these... [break]
Prabhupada: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, sadhi mam prapannam. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. That is required.
Guest (3): Guru expects from you that thing... [break]
Prabhupada: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone...
Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... [break]
Prabhupada: According to our Vaisnava principles, adau gurvasrayam, the first business is to accept a spiritual master. Sad-dharma-prccha. Then one has to inquire about sad-dharma. Sadhu-marganugamanam. One should follow the footprints of the previous acaryas. This is the process, one after another. So first thing is adau gurvasrayam, one has to accept a guru. So you may, you should, I mean to say, check whether he's guru or not. That is allowed. It is said for one year the sisya and the guru should meet together...
Dr. Patel: And don't talk.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, the guru, I mean, the aspirant sisya will hear and study whether he's actually fit for becoming guru. Similarly, the guru will also study that whether he's actually fit for becoming a... Just like in our society. We don't accept immediately. We don't give initiation immediately. First of all lives for some time. Then when he becomes eager, we give the first initiation, chanting Hare Krsna mantra. Then after one year, when he's fit, he's doing everything well, then we initiate him. This is our process. [break] Yes.
Dr. Patel: So if you don't hear near me, so that is the misfortune of all...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. You are a learned gentleman.
Dr. Patel: He's learning.
Prabhupada: A learned gentleman, that is another thing, yes. And we are preaching. We must talk on the point of philosophy. That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: So we have made up now. Don't worry. [break]
Guest (3): You cannot argue what he says.
Dr. Patel: No... That is the way. You see, I am trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Sometimes you say nice, and sometimes you also fire me. So what this, what I am to understand about our relationship?
Prabhupada: You should be fired always. (laughter) But if I do not say sometimes nice, then it will be dangerous.
Dr. Patel: Then why you'll understand that this is all humbug?
Bhagavata: Srila Prabhupada, you can tell us the qualifications of guru and the qualifications of disciple?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very simple thing. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. So this is the qualification of cela. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta. One has to accept a guru. Who? Jijnasu. What kind of jijnasu. (Hindi) Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. "What is the best ultimate goal of life?" Such person will require a guru. Those who are interested with these material affairs, they do not require a guru.
Dr. Patel: They require Einstein as a guru.
Prabhupada: No. No, no. Real guru means those who are interested in these material affairs, they do not require a guru. It is... It is a fashion. "Such man has kept such and such guru." Just like keeping a dog. This is not guru.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) That is good.
Prabhupada: Keeping a guru, and "Guru, come here, come here, guru." (laughter) Not like that. That is useless. And this is the qualification of cela. Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. One who is interested with the Absolute Truth. That requires, he requires a guru. And guru means, sabde pare ca nisnatam. Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the qualification. Sabde, he's, in the Vedic knowledge, he's perfect. Sabde pare ca. Nisnatam. He has immersed himself in that ocean. And the result is brahmany upasama..., he has no more material interests, simply Brahman. That's all. How simple it is, the qualification of cela and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap: asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one."
Dr. Patel: So you told me the same thing. Very good. I must be proud that I am going to be lion(?). That is what you mean to say.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is the guru's... Guru's business is, when he talks much, he says, "All right, it is all right," but when he accepts guru slaps.
Dr. Patel: Choke him up. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes. How mildly He says: Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams... [Bg. 2.11]. "You do not know what is what..."
Dr. Patel: "You are a fool."
Prabhupada: "You are a fool number one." Nanusocanti panditah. He says, "A pandita does not like this." That means, "You are a murkha." Indirectly, He said, "A pandita does not do this. Now you learn." Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram... [Bg. 2.13]. He began to speak Bhagavad-gita.
Dr. Patel: Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti...
Prabhupada: Nanusocanti. The body, either dead or living, the pandita has nothing to care about. But the whole world is taking care of the body.
Dr. Patel: Because the world is body conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are all... None of them are panditas. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is described as ass and cow.
Dr. Patel: Go-kharah.
Prabhupada: Ah, go-kharah. Yes. You have heard so many things. [break] ...buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih. Kalatradisu, attached.
Dr. Patel: Wife and others.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhauma-ijya-dhih. And land, "This is my country, this is my home, this is ijya," bhauma-ijya-dhih. Ijya means worshipable. As all these leaders, so-called nationalists, they are under the concept of this body, and their country, their home, is worshipable. Bhauma-ijya-dhih, yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij janesv abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. [break] Now...
Dr. Patel: And Hindus... (laughs)
Prabhupada: Go va kharo va. The same thing. Go is little useful because it supplies milk, and kharah is useful. You overburden him.
Dr. Patel: No, we were giving milk of kharah to the children in the hospital.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because that is as good as the mother's milk.
Prabhupada: Everything has got his use, but still, go-kharah is go-kharah.
Dr. Patel: This is also creation of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And useful.
Prabhupada: No, useful.
Dr. Patel: Nothing, nothing which is not in...
Prabhupada: No, useful, that's all right. Again your coming to this, "Therefore everything is Krsna." That is not conclusion.
Dr. Patel: No, I did not say everything is again. You are misinterpreting me before these boys.
Prabhupada: No, you'll come to that.
Dr. Patel: I don't come to that. I say everything is made by Krsna which is useful. Nothing... It is not useful is made by Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are purnasya, purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate. Purnam adah purnam idam [Iso Invocation]. Everything created by Krsna, that is perfect. He does not create anything useless. Just like this sea water is salty. Why it is salty? If it is not salty, then it cannot be preserved. Therefore it is salty. You have to take water. But it is made salty. The process is... It is distilled by the sun, and then you are supplied. Just see how perfectly it is done. It is put onto the top of the hills, and it comes as river. This is God's creation.
Bhagavata: Complete.
Prabhupada: Complete, yes. Complete... Complete intelligence.
Bhagavata: But we make it incomplete.
Dr. Patel: How can you make anything incomplete. You have no power to... [break]
Prabhupada: ...instruction from the Complete, Krsna.
Dr. Patel: So don't say "we." We are nothing.
Prabhupada: We take instruction from the Complete, not partial. Partial instruction may be good partially. But complete is complete. [break] ...purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
Dr. Patel: That is, then what do you... How you are saying that?
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna... Krsna is expanding Himself in so many ways. Still, He's Krsna. He's not impersonal. The Mayavadi says, "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore no more Krsna. Krsna is finished." Because this is Mayavada. "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore there is no personal Krsna." This is Mayavada philosophy. But the Upanisads say, "No, even though He has expanded in so many thousands ways, still He's Krsna."
Dr. Patel: But even Bhagavata says that even though He was born as an embodied, He was still so in His eternal place there.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is purna. It does not mean... Just like isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. He's staying in everyone's heart. That does not mean He's finished. He's still there. That is Krsna. Maya tatam idam sarvam. "And still, don't think that I am there."
Dr. Patel: Avyakta-murtina.
Prabhupada: Yes. Avyakta-murtina. That is avyakta. His impersonal feature is avyakta. But His personal feature is vyakta.
Dr. Patel: His personal feature is in Goloka.
Prabhupada: No. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhutah [Bs. 5.37]. That is Krsna. Although He's always existing in Goloka Vrndavana, He's everywhere. Andantara-stha-paramanu-
Makhanalal: There was that one notable, so-called incarnation. He supposedly lost all his potency be...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: He said he gave away all his potency...
Prabhupada: He's a rascal. What potency he has got?
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupada: Any rascal who has called himself incarnation of God. There are so many rascals.
Makhanalal: Wasn't that Ramakrishna who said he gave away everything; he had nothing more except...
Prabhupada: What Ramakrishna? Don't talk of these nonsense. Simply they have misled. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Simply you bhaja Krsna and don't think anything else. And you get all your intelligence there.
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna has said, mam ekam. "Don't go to these foolish rascals." Mam ekam. Otherwise you'll be misled. Because they are misleaders, rascals.
Dr. Patel: You are so very hard.
Prabhupada: I must be hard!
Dr. Patel: Hard, harsh, and hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: The whole world is spoiled for these Mayavadis. Therefore I am very much hard.
Dr. Patel: What... I don't say hard. Hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: No, we must be harder and harder.
Dr. Patel: Hard and harsh! Doesn't matter...
Prabhupada: I don't make any compromise with these rascals. No words. No, no. I never made that. Even if I don't get any disciples, I'll be satisfied. But I can't make any compromise like these rascals. I cannot make. Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tara sahasrasah. If I create one moon, that is sufficient. I don't want many stars. That was my Guru Maharaja's principle, and that is my principle. What is the use of having number of fools and rascals? If one man understands rightly, he can deliver the whole world. [break]
Guest (3): Do you mean the other persons...?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Own one who cannot understand rightly. That is another rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: Understanding God is always supraconscious with them. Never by the mind.
Prabhupada: They... One has to rise, rise... understand rightly from the right person. He cannot. He's imperfect. How he can understand rightly?
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: If a man has seen a place, that man will show you that place. That is how it is.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): But to reach that place there are several ways.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, tattva-darsinah. You have to approach a person who has seen the truth. You don't manufacture your own truth. That will be misleading. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic instruction. In order to understand scientifically, you must approach a guru.
Guest (3): And with a clean slate.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guest (3): With a clean slate of his mind.
Prabhupada: Yes. Samit-panih srotriyam.
Dr. Patel: It is complete spirit of submission.
Prabhupada: Submission. Because...
Dr. Patel: And inquiry also.
Prabhupada: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated
Prabhupada: Yes. But the westerners are not that. [break] ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many western men.
Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose...,
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...in the educational system...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): Inquiring of anything and every...
Prabhupada: No, inquiring submissively. Not that challenging. If one challenges to inquire, he'll never be benefited.
Dr. Patel: That is how... Even we have seen inquiring so intelligently. That man was such a big mathematical genius... [break]
Prabhupada: Knowledge cannot be acquired by challenge. Knowledge is acquired by submission. That is the process.
Dr. Patel: But I don't think I am challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why you are taking?
Dr. Patel: I am fixing the aruni (?) with another aruni. So you tell these boys I'm not challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. I am talking of the process, not of you personally. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise these people will go away with an idea that I am here to challenge you.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Guest (3): Nobody can challenge anybody. A Vaisnava... [break]
Prabhupada: ...thing is to be done submissively, pranipatena. Two things. Inquiry must be guided by two things: submission and seva.
Dr. Patel: First, according to Bhagavad-gita, most importance is sraddha... [break]
Prabhupada: ...jnanam. So that is the beginning. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. Atha bhajana-kriya. These are the step by step. Atha anartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah athasaktis tato bhavas sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the krama. Krama-patha. Everything is there in our Vedic literature. One has to study cool-headed, and he'll get the things. [break] ...ment of Krsna consciousness or spiritual consciousness is based on sraddha. Just like Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one actually has sraddha, "Yes, Krsna says like this, then I'll accept Krsna." That is sraddha. "Krsna says... Oh, Krsna says like this. Why shall I surrender to Him?" That is not sraddha. Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one accepts this principle, then there is sraddha. That is explained by Caitanya-caritamrta (indistinct):
sraddha-sabde -- visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya
krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya
[Cc. Madhya 22.62]
This is sraddha. Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Firm faith. "Yes, Krsna has said that mam ekam saranam vraja, I will accept it. I will accept it. Even I do not understand, I will accept it." That is called visvasa sudrdha niscaya. And faith means krsne bhakti, "If I surrender to Krsna, then my all perfection is there." This is called sraddha.
Dr. Patel: I... Shall I ask you one thing?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] As soon as...
Dr. Patel: What are the papas and what are the punyas?
Prabhupada: Papa means so long you accept this material body.
Dr. Patel: Is papa.
Prabhupada: Is papa. Either you accept as, a material body as Brahma or as insignificant ant, it is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything is papa. Anything is papa. Anything which you make removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Just like outlaw. Outlaw means who does not care for the government laws. Similarly, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. The law means dharma, law. Dharma means to accept the laws of God. And what is the law? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the law. If one cannot accept this, then he's outlaw. Immediately.
Dr. Patel: And that is papa.
Prabhupada: That is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything which makes you removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: That is what I could not understand.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Anything means this is also: Krsna says, "You surrender," and if I do not surrender, that is papa. (sound of kirtana in background, approaching temple)
Guest (5) (Indian man): But serving to poor is serving the whole...
Prabhupada: (laughs) Again that disease. It has become a disease.
Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Is that called punya?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Guest (5): Serving the poor?
Prabhupada: What is the use of your serving poor? Are you serving the poor? Why do you talk like that?
Guest (5): I want to ask you.
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, are you serving the poor?
Guest (5): Yes, sir. I am a doctor. And we see only poverty. So I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Then, then every... So every patient is a poor, and every doctor is punyavan.
Dr. Patel: Ha, every doctor is a fool. Like me.
Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Swamiji...
Dr. Patel: Swami, Swami answered.
Prabhupada: This has become a slogan, "Serving the poor." Where is the sastra? Where Bhagavad-gita it is said, "Serving the poor?"
Guest (5): It doesn't say. No, I know. But...
Prabhupada: You are yourself poor. How you can serve? (laughter)
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)
Guest (5): No. Yes, I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That's all right. We should... First of all, we should know that "I am the poorest of the poor."
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: So first of all let me become rich. Then I shall serve. (pause) [break] Hare Krsna beat. (sound of kirtana in background) People will come and hear Hare Krsna. This slogan has spread, "If I serve the poor..." And what you have got, you will serve the poor? You have to work like an ass to earn your livelihood, and you are going to serve the poor.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) What is meant by service?
Prabhupada: No, and the poor cannot be served. Service, service to be rendered to the higher authority.
Guest (3): By serving poor, you are serving yourself.
Prabhupada: No, serving nobody. Now, Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission... Just hear, doctor. Ah. Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission, when I went to America, I met him. He said that "The Americans are asking that 'You take money from us for serving the poor.' But when we go to India, we simply see poor men are lying on the footpath. So what you are doing with this money?" You see? This is a plea for collection of money, "to serve the poor." What... [break] Yes. I know in America there are so many foundations. You see? And there are so many cheats also. They found a society. And the managers of the foundations, they have got plea, and they get out all the money. I have seen. Who was that? That Mr. Bogus? No, Bogart. Bogart. I used to call him "Mr. Bogus." (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Americans are very clever at using money.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have made a clique with the managers of the foundation, and they present by literature all lies. The subject matter is India. "Oh, so many people are starving, so many..." In this way they take money from the managers, and it is divided amongst themselves.
Dr. Patel: They are the (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhava-bhuti: Also, Prabhupada, there was one report that the Red Cross, seventy-five percent of the money collected went on advertising.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Dr. Patel: America is living on advertisement. Right or wrong? I have been studying American, I mean, psychology.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I understand.
Dr. Patel: Psychology.
Prabhupada: That I understand.
Dr. Patel: And they really are purely running away without... They have no peace of mind.[break]
Prabhupada: The other day one American devotee, he said, "Sir, I see..." He first came, "I see the poorest man here is happier than the richest man in my country." He said like that.
Dr. Patel: Because they have got no peace of mind.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And every...
Prabhupada: And that is... [break]
Dr. Patel: This, any act of competition is a sin and a violence against...
Prabhupada: [break] ...competition even Krsna. Krishnamurti's competition even Krsna. You know that?
Dr. Patel: No, I didn't know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Krishnamurti, I read a couple of books. He said that nothing, everything...
Prabhupada: Does he say anything about Krsna?
Dr. Patel: Yes, he does say.
Prabhupada: What does he say?
Dr. Patel: He says the Krsna's all names are all, God is also His name. Because the God, it is Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. What does he say about personal Krsna? Does he know anything?
Bhagavata: He said, "You are your own guru," Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is...
Devotee: I have heard him.
Prabhupada: You see? Krsna says, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet... [MU 1.2.12]. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. He says, "Everyone is guru." Just see. "Everyone is guru." Then why you are instructing? Why you are becoming guru?
Dr. Patel: He's not becoming guru of anybody.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why does he say that "You do this"? That is guru. Guru means one who orders. That is guru. That means you reject all other gurus... That means... He means to say that "You reject all other gurus. Accept me guru." That's all.
Guest (3): That is not... That is what he...
Prabhupada: That is competition.
Guest (3): All gurus are like that. All gurus are like that.
Bhava-bhuti:. He's writing many books saying "There's no need for books."
Prabhupada: Accha. Now see. He says, "There is no need of books." And he writes books, Krsna books.
Guest (3): Yes. Yes. What you have
Bhagavata: He said, Everything is within you. So you are your own guru and..."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Bhagavata: ...everything will be revealed to you."
Dr. Patel: It may be within him, all right. He must drag it out.
Prabhupada: No, no. Now, just see how he is making nonsense competition.
Guest (3): Vasarambhanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Vasarambhanam.
Dr. Patel: Vasarambhanam caro namadheyam (?). [break]
Prabhupada: He's writing books, and he says, "There is no need of books."
Guest (3): He has written so many books, not one.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...nonsense. Directly. You, that... Our, our criterion is, because we are Krsna conscious people, Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
So anyone we see that he does not know about Krsna, he's a mudha.
Dr. Patel: Catur-vidha bhajante mam...
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dr. Patel: I think we are of one of those four categories. Or we are also mudha?
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: No. At least, give us some claim. (laughs)
Prabhupada: You are, you are catur-vidha.
Guest (3): Artharthi.
Prabhupada: Not artharthi. Jnani. No, I must give the proper position. Jnani...
Dr. Patel: You have, you have admitted at the end, before these boys.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: You have rehabilitated me. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: ...pious, how you would come daily to see the mangala-arati? This is the proof.
Dr. Patel: That is, we are, we are brought up like that from our...
Prabhupada: That is, that means you are pious.
Guest (3): You are pious.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Sucinam sukrtam grhe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): Yoga-bhrasta...
Dr. Patel: Yoga-bhrasta... [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: Sufi philosophy, there's one professor, so-called professor, Baba Ramdas. He says there's no need for talking, but he has many thousands of followers. They all gather around him.
Prabhupada: But he's talking.
Makhanalal: Yes. But he's talking.
Prabhupada: He's talking. These are the defects.
Dr. Patel: Huh?
Prabhupada: Some rascal has said that "There is no need of talking." But this is also talking, "There is no need of talking." Why he's talking?
Dr. Patel: Just a rascal says, "There is no need of cutting."
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing.
Makhanalal: But he is trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: Sevaya pranipatena. Sevaya. [break]
Dr. Patel: I, I... Do you like it? I have to ask you.
Prabhupada: No. Thank you so much.
Dr. Patel: Do you like it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I wear it for you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: All this... How do you like? [break] (kirtana) (end)
Prabhupada: No, no. That is, this is the reason: To give one food, there is the only one mouth. You cannot say, "Because there are so many holes, any hole."
Dr. Patel: But that is not the real..., I mean, real argument that you give...
Prabhupada: No, no, that's right.
Dr. Patel: But my question is...
Prabhupada: Avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: No, but they're...
Prabhupada: That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi-purvakam. But also, still, they are worshiping God.
Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone is part and parcel of God, but everyone is not God. That is the way. That any hole of my body, that is my body. But when food is to be taken, it is only this, not another, other hole. That is the way. [break] ...and if you are saying like that... Just like... Here... When you...
Dr. Patel: But it is of the... is doing that to you also. Why do you worry about it?
Prabhupada: No, no. When the...
Dr. Patel: We can give it in the vein also.
Prabhupada: No, no. (laughter.) That is not the way. That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: But... Listen. That is why I say, disease or no disease, vidhi's going to help your body and bring you nutrients, even given by intravenously or by rectum or by mouth. By any way.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But they are going to... He's going to...
Prabhupada: This is... This is for the nonsense. You see.
Dr. Patel: Having the... Why nonsense now?
Prabhupada: No, no. If the way is this, that food should be taken within the mouth...
Dr. Patel: But this is also... This is what is said by Krsna, by Himself in Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Avidhi-purvakam. Everything is seva, but avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: It may be seva, but...
Prabhupada: Just like Kamsa. Kamsa was thinking of Krsna always. But he's not a devotee. Avidhi-purvakam. No, that...
Dr. Patel: But he was not a bhakta. He was an enemy.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Therefore... He was thinking of Krsna, but still, he's not a devotee.
Dr. Patel: But here is the question of devotee: ye 'py anya-devata-bhaktah bhajante mam avidhi-purvakam. Bhakta. They are bhaktas, not enemies.
Prabhupada: No, no. Bhakta. One who worships God, he's a bhakta. Just like sometimes you have to go to the chief minister through his caparasi. But the caparasi is not the chief minister.
Dr. Patel: That's right. But a chief minister gets pleased through the caparasi. All right. (laughs)
Prabhupada: But if you, if you say...
Dr. Patel: Not my argument it is, eh? This is the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is wrong argument. You see... Just like our Hadaji Batlar (?), he was...
Dr. Patel: Now, how would it be wrong argument, sir? We are following the same process. We collected those foodstuffs... [break]
Prabhupada: ...commissioner is not the politician. Why do you mix them?
Dr. Patel: But Krsna was never a politician. He was a...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is a wrong theory. This is a wrong theory. You can approach somebody through somebody, but they are two, individual persons. [break] ...He is bhakta, yes.
Dr. Patel: "I am enjoyer of all the yajnas to whom, whatever and to whomever you are doing." How would you accept that...
Prabhupada: No, no. The king. The king is the proprietor of all taxes. But he's not a tax collector.
Dr. Patel: Now, now, Chando Bhai, come here.
Prabhupada: The king...
Guest (3) (Indian man): What do you want?
Prabhupada: ...is the proprietor...
Dr. Patel: Aham hi sarva-bhoktanam bhakto mam paramesvaram (?).
Prabhupada: Just like the king, and there are many tax collectors. So tax goes to the king.
Guest (3): Yes, king, yes.
Prabhupada: It does not belong to the tax collectors.
Guest (3): Correct.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] ...naham tesv avasthitah.
Guest (3): Correct. [break]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): So you transcend them.
Prabhupada: "Everything, everything is connected with Me, but I am not that." That is...
Guest (3): Much more than that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mattah sarva-bhutani, mat-sthaniti.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Guest (3): He's much more than that.
Prabhupada: Nobody can exist without Krsna. But that does not mean everybody's Krsna.
Dr. Patel: But there is nobody other than Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Excepting the jivas, as you say.
Prabhupada: No. Naham tesv avasthitah.
Dr. Patel: No, as I am reading the Bhagavata today, everything is emanating from Krsna. Even your jivas are part and parcel of Visnu's...
Prabhupada: Yes, that doesn't mean Krsna is jiva.
Dr. Patel: But he's evolved from everything, and nothing can exist without Krsna.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all right.
Dr. Patel: If that is the real thing, then, I mean, any, any other deva being worshiped as good as...
Prabhupada: Just like everything is material energy, but that does not mean this land is the sea. That is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: No, no, it is not...
Prabhupada: Everything is material. Everything is material. If you say, "Then the land and the sea is the same,"...
Dr. Patel: Yes!
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: It is not nonsense, and I'll...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: I am giving you the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is nonsense.
Bhagavata: Stool and sweet rice is the same.
Dr. Patel: As you are scientist, I'll tell you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Scientist...
Dr. Patel: Please...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I cannot hear this nonsense.
Dr. Patel: If you don't hear, then there will be no...
Prabhupada: No, no! No, no! There cannot be. If you say the sea and the land is the same, this is completely nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Nonsense in this present circumstances. You change the circumstances!
Prabhupada: Any circumstances! Any circumstances!
Dr. Patel: Other circumstances.
Prabhupada: Any circumstances! You cannot say... We say that this is matter. But you cannot say that land is water, water is land. You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: Would you please give me a hearing...
Prabhupada: No, no, everything is matter, that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is what I want to say.
Prabhupada: No, that I admit! That I admit. That is the difficulty of the Mayavadis. They cannot distinguish the varieties.
Guest (3): Land is the whole Brahman.
Prabhupada: Yes. The Mayavadi...
Dr. Patel: Whenever it is (?) a question of matter is evolved from maya. So we are Mayavadis, all of you and me.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Yes, because we are talking of maya.
Prabhupada: No, no. Maya means sakti. Maya means sakti.
Dr. Patel: That's it. Then sakti's of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Nothing can happen without the sakti. Nothing can happen without the energy.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but the...
Dr. Patel: You cannot move your finger...
Prabhupada: But you cannot avoid the varieties.
Dr. Patel: But variety is produced by...
Prabhupada: Just like in your body, this is your head, this is your hand. Everything is body. But if you say, "Everything is body," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: How can it be nonsense?
Prabhupada: Ah! It is nonsense!
Dr. Patel: That particular...
Prabhupada: Why there is separate name, "This is head, this is hand, this is leg."
Dr. Patel: When this thing, whole body, was in the embryo...
Prabhupada: Then it is called "unity in varieties." That is called.
Dr. Patel: And I will... Shall I speak?
Prabhupada: Yes. But you cannot say the head and the leg is the same!
Dr. Patel: Let me talk now.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that!
Dr. Patel: Shall I talk it now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: When this body was being manufactured in the embryo, in the womb.
Prabhupada: No, I know that you don't require this! I know that.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is matter. But it becomes varieties.
Dr. Patel: It was not matter to anyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That was also inside.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: In the seed there is the whole banyan tree.
Prabhupada: Yes, matter... They manifested into varieties. First of all, they, after sex intercourse, the two seminas is emulsified, and it becomes like a pea. And it develops into different parts of the body.
Dr. Patel: Right, but I, what I am coming to this point is that...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: ...even in Upanisad, from a small seed, big banyan tree has come out.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: And that...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: So seed is the real thing. And that seed is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So everything is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Again, everything is Krsna! Same nonsense, same nonsense. (laughs) Krsna says, "I am not that." Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesv avasthitah [Bg. 9.4].
Dr. Patel: Na tu mat-sthani bhutani pasya me, uh, aisvaram!
Prabhupada: Yes. So there is varieties.
Dr. Patel: But in the second... That is...
Prabhupada: So there is...
Dr. Patel: ...correction in the second sloka only.
Prabhupada: No, no! It is not correction. It is correction because we fools, we cannot understand Him clearly. "So although everything is existing in Me, I am not everything."
Dr. Patel: "Still, everything existing in Me." But...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: What is that?
Guest (3): Aham yogam aisvaram.
Dr. Patel: Yogam aisvaram.
Prabhupada: Just like in this hotel. There are so many furnitures, so many rooms. If you say, "Everything is hotel," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: Ah, but without furniture hotel cannot be? Without building, hotel cannot be. Without this...
Prabhupada: But why do you say, "It is furniture"?
Dr. Patel: ...parts, all this, the body cannot be.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am...
Prabhupada: Yes
Dr. Patel: I want to correct my intelligence.
Prabhupada: If you say the furniture is hotel, that means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but then you take out the furniture, hotel will not be there.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but you cannot say the furniture is the hotel.
Dr. Patel: I am arguing like a Buddha.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: But then, that is also an argument.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense argument. "Hotel is furniture."
Dr. Patel: Yes, it is.
Devotee: Buddha purposely made those... [break]
Prabhupada: You cannot say "Everything is hotel." "The furniture is hotel, the man is hotel, the food is hotel." What is this? There must be varieties.
Dr. Patel: So you have gone on the top of the tree. We are trying to give him the root.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) But you do not know how the root is manifested. Therefore you are less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: I am very less intelligent. I have no intelligence.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: The root is manifested from the seed.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: And that we are going to the seed...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: And not to the top of the tree.
Prabhupada: You cannot say, when the tree is grown, you cannot say, "The leaf is also root. The fruit is also root. The trunk is also root." This is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: This is what the Vedas...
Prabhupada: No, no. That, Vedas does not say. Veda is not so nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Then it is (indistinct) very differently I understand it.
Prabhupada: No, no. How you can say everything is the sa...? There is varieties. This is called acintya-bhedabheda-tattva philosophy. Simultaneously one and different. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a philosophy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like my the same example: the water is matter, and this is also matter. As matter, they're one, but as water, it is different; as land, it is different. This is simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: Bheda?
Guest (3): Bheda abheda. (break
Prabhupada: (laughs) ...thinking abheda. You are simply thinking that... That is your deficiency.
Dr. Patel: No, no. I will try to understand your bheda also. But abheda is more important for the present for me.
Prabhupada: No. That means you are less.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind become the least. Why less?
Prabhupada: But you should come to this, that there is, in the bheda, abheda, there is bhedas. In the abheda... It is very simple thing. That my hand is not different from my body, but still, hand is not body. It is... A child can understand.
Dr. Patel: But when the child grows, he does not understand it. That is the misfortune of this.
Prabhupada: That is...
Dr. Patel: Mayavada! Mayavada, no?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is Mayavada. (chuckles.) Acintya-bheda... This is right philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda. At the present moment we cannot think of how one thing is simultaneously one and different. Therefore it is acintya.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) [break]
Prabhupada: ...to eleven. Why not give me.
Dr. Patel: No, I have given all contribution. And we start with you when you are here.
Prabhupada: Then Bhagavata is compared to the body of Krsna. And Krsna worships begins from the feet.
Dr. Patel: I started and come up to His mouth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is avidhi-purvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi... Then let me do it for avidhi-purvak, then I'll do it, vidhi-purvakam.
Prabhupada: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand.
Bhagavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupada... [break]
Prabhupada: Mayavadam asac-chastram pracchannam bauddham ucyate, pracchannam bauddham ucyate.
Dr. Patel: You call pracchanna, but I am open Buddha now, today, for the sake of argument. Let me understand it. There are various ways you can argue about the thing. God cannot be approached by argument...
Prabhupada: No, no. Your difficulty is you are not submissive. Therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I am, I am actually submissive.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But I want to... I cannot submit without understanding.
Prabhupada: But you... Because you...
Dr. Patel: That is what I want...
Prabhupada: But you should not... Because you do not submit, therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I cannot submit till I understanding.
Prabhupada: No, no. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. Pranipata, first of all, pranipata.
Dr. Patel: I am always doing pranipata.
Guest (3) (Indian man): Jnaninas tattva-darsinah.
Prabhupada: Ah!
Dr. Patel: I am doing pranipata to you. Do you think I am disrespecting you? If you take, then you pardon me.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. It is not the question of disrespecting, but that is not full surrender. You think that you know better than me.
Dr. Patel: I don't think so.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong.
Prabhupada: Therefore you talk of all this...
Dr. Patel: No, no. If you go on with that, I will not talk from tomorrow.
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: I want to learn myself.
Prabhupada: But that will be very good. If you don't talk, simply hear, it will be beneficial.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Now you don't talk then. When I say...
Prabhupada: (Chuckling) No, no. I say you, you simply hear. Don't talk.
Dr. Patel: All right.
Prabhupada: Then you'll understand.
Dr. Patel: And then, then, then I want to make you talk. What will I do?
Prabhupada: No. But your habit is as soon as we begin talks, immediately you talk.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Without hearing. And therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: I think, uh... No, I think... What way I will make you talk? You tell me the way. I will make you talk...
Prabhupada: And you'll hear first of all.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Let us hear.
Prabhupada: Then I... You are simply patient. Then if you cannot understand, you'll inquire. Not that you will think, "I know better than him. Therefore I shall talk." It will never help you to understand.
Dr. Patel: Well, if you run away with the idea that I am thinking that, it is wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no. You are, you are habituated to think like that.
Dr. Patel: I am habituated.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is your...
Dr. Patel: Habit is... Habit is habit. But I have got all respect for you. Don't say that I am thinking that.
Prabhupada: No, no. I know that. I know that.
Dr. Patel: That is... Don't run away with that idea that I am disrespecting you.
Prabhupada: And therefore I am pointing out your defects.
Dr. Patel: That's all right. I am prepared to correct it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But you, you keep mum. If I don't excite, you don't speak. So which way I shall excite you? (laughter throughout)
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of excitement. When you put a question, I shall answer it from the sastras. Just like it is, it is any child can understand. If I ask a child, "What is this?" "Hand." "What is this?" "Head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "Body"? So you are speaking less than a child. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Hm. That is what I am. That is what I am. That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Any child, if you ask him, "My dear child, what is this?" He'll say, "It is hand." "What is this?" "It is head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "All body"? You are speaking like that.
Dr. Patel: Like... How shall I speak? Shall I beat your body?
Prabhupada: No, no. (laughter) Don't speak.
Dr. Patel: Where is the right way?
Prabhupada: No, no. Any gentleman says... It is right? If I ask a child, "What is this?" What he'll say? "It is hand." Will he say, "It is head"? Then? You are speaking like less than a child.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now, Mr. Sar!
Dr. Patel: No, he will not say anything because he's a baniya (?). He'll reserve his opinion.
Guest (4) (Indian man): To answer the scripture... [break]
Prabhupada: No, no. Vedic system is...
Guest (3): You know, all these... [break]
Prabhupada: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, sadhi mam prapannam. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. That is required.
Guest (3): Guru expects from you that thing... [break]
Prabhupada: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone...
Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... [break]
Prabhupada: According to our Vaisnava principles, adau gurvasrayam, the first business is to accept a spiritual master. Sad-dharma-prccha. Then one has to inquire about sad-dharma. Sadhu-marganugamanam. One should follow the footprints of the previous acaryas. This is the process, one after another. So first thing is adau gurvasrayam, one has to accept a guru. So you may, you should, I mean to say, check whether he's guru or not. That is allowed. It is said for one year the sisya and the guru should meet together...
Dr. Patel: And don't talk.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, the guru, I mean, the aspirant sisya will hear and study whether he's actually fit for becoming guru. Similarly, the guru will also study that whether he's actually fit for becoming a... Just like in our society. We don't accept immediately. We don't give initiation immediately. First of all lives for some time. Then when he becomes eager, we give the first initiation, chanting Hare Krsna mantra. Then after one year, when he's fit, he's doing everything well, then we initiate him. This is our process. [break] Yes.
Dr. Patel: So if you don't hear near me, so that is the misfortune of all...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. You are a learned gentleman.
Dr. Patel: He's learning.
Prabhupada: A learned gentleman, that is another thing, yes. And we are preaching. We must talk on the point of philosophy. That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: So we have made up now. Don't worry. [break]
Guest (3): You cannot argue what he says.
Dr. Patel: No... That is the way. You see, I am trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Sometimes you say nice, and sometimes you also fire me. So what this, what I am to understand about our relationship?
Prabhupada: You should be fired always. (laughter) But if I do not say sometimes nice, then it will be dangerous.
Dr. Patel: Then why you'll understand that this is all humbug?
Bhagavata: Srila Prabhupada, you can tell us the qualifications of guru and the qualifications of disciple?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very simple thing. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. So this is the qualification of cela. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta. One has to accept a guru. Who? Jijnasu. What kind of jijnasu. (Hindi) Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. "What is the best ultimate goal of life?" Such person will require a guru. Those who are interested with these material affairs, they do not require a guru.
Dr. Patel: They require Einstein as a guru.
Prabhupada: No. No, no. Real guru means those who are interested in these material affairs, they do not require a guru. It is... It is a fashion. "Such man has kept such and such guru." Just like keeping a dog. This is not guru.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) That is good.
Prabhupada: Keeping a guru, and "Guru, come here, come here, guru." (laughter) Not like that. That is useless. And this is the qualification of cela. Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. One who is interested with the Absolute Truth. That requires, he requires a guru. And guru means, sabde pare ca nisnatam. Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the qualification. Sabde, he's, in the Vedic knowledge, he's perfect. Sabde pare ca. Nisnatam. He has immersed himself in that ocean. And the result is brahmany upasama..., he has no more material interests, simply Brahman. That's all. How simple it is, the qualification of cela and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap: asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one."
Dr. Patel: So you told me the same thing. Very good. I must be proud that I am going to be lion(?). That is what you mean to say.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is the guru's... Guru's business is, when he talks much, he says, "All right, it is all right," but when he accepts guru slaps.
Dr. Patel: Choke him up. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes. How mildly He says: Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams... [Bg. 2.11]. "You do not know what is what..."
Dr. Patel: "You are a fool."
Prabhupada: "You are a fool number one." Nanusocanti panditah. He says, "A pandita does not like this." That means, "You are a murkha." Indirectly, He said, "A pandita does not do this. Now you learn." Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram... [Bg. 2.13]. He began to speak Bhagavad-gita.
Dr. Patel: Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti...
Prabhupada: Nanusocanti. The body, either dead or living, the pandita has nothing to care about. But the whole world is taking care of the body.
Dr. Patel: Because the world is body conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are all... None of them are panditas. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is described as ass and cow.
Dr. Patel: Go-kharah.
Prabhupada: Ah, go-kharah. Yes. You have heard so many things. [break] ...buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih. Kalatradisu, attached.
Dr. Patel: Wife and others.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhauma-ijya-dhih. And land, "This is my country, this is my home, this is ijya," bhauma-ijya-dhih. Ijya means worshipable. As all these leaders, so-called nationalists, they are under the concept of this body, and their country, their home, is worshipable. Bhauma-ijya-dhih, yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij janesv abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. [break] Now...
Dr. Patel: And Hindus... (laughs)
Prabhupada: Go va kharo va. The same thing. Go is little useful because it supplies milk, and kharah is useful. You overburden him.
Dr. Patel: No, we were giving milk of kharah to the children in the hospital.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because that is as good as the mother's milk.
Prabhupada: Everything has got his use, but still, go-kharah is go-kharah.
Dr. Patel: This is also creation of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And useful.
Prabhupada: No, useful.
Dr. Patel: Nothing, nothing which is not in...
Prabhupada: No, useful, that's all right. Again your coming to this, "Therefore everything is Krsna." That is not conclusion.
Dr. Patel: No, I did not say everything is again. You are misinterpreting me before these boys.
Prabhupada: No, you'll come to that.
Dr. Patel: I don't come to that. I say everything is made by Krsna which is useful. Nothing... It is not useful is made by Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are purnasya, purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate. Purnam adah purnam idam [Iso Invocation]. Everything created by Krsna, that is perfect. He does not create anything useless. Just like this sea water is salty. Why it is salty? If it is not salty, then it cannot be preserved. Therefore it is salty. You have to take water. But it is made salty. The process is... It is distilled by the sun, and then you are supplied. Just see how perfectly it is done. It is put onto the top of the hills, and it comes as river. This is God's creation.
Bhagavata: Complete.
Prabhupada: Complete, yes. Complete... Complete intelligence.
Bhagavata: But we make it incomplete.
Dr. Patel: How can you make anything incomplete. You have no power to... [break]
Prabhupada: ...instruction from the Complete, Krsna.
Dr. Patel: So don't say "we." We are nothing.
Prabhupada: We take instruction from the Complete, not partial. Partial instruction may be good partially. But complete is complete. [break] ...purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
Dr. Patel: That is, then what do you... How you are saying that?
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna... Krsna is expanding Himself in so many ways. Still, He's Krsna. He's not impersonal. The Mayavadi says, "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore no more Krsna. Krsna is finished." Because this is Mayavada. "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore there is no personal Krsna." This is Mayavada philosophy. But the Upanisads say, "No, even though He has expanded in so many thousands ways, still He's Krsna."
Dr. Patel: But even Bhagavata says that even though He was born as an embodied, He was still so in His eternal place there.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is purna. It does not mean... Just like isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. He's staying in everyone's heart. That does not mean He's finished. He's still there. That is Krsna. Maya tatam idam sarvam. "And still, don't think that I am there."
Dr. Patel: Avyakta-murtina.
Prabhupada: Yes. Avyakta-murtina. That is avyakta. His impersonal feature is avyakta. But His personal feature is vyakta.
Dr. Patel: His personal feature is in Goloka.
Prabhupada: No. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhutah [Bs. 5.37]. That is Krsna. Although He's always existing in Goloka Vrndavana, He's everywhere. Andantara-stha-paramanu-
Makhanalal: There was that one notable, so-called incarnation. He supposedly lost all his potency be...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: He said he gave away all his potency...
Prabhupada: He's a rascal. What potency he has got?
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupada: Any rascal who has called himself incarnation of God. There are so many rascals.
Makhanalal: Wasn't that Ramakrishna who said he gave away everything; he had nothing more except...
Prabhupada: What Ramakrishna? Don't talk of these nonsense. Simply they have misled. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Simply you bhaja Krsna and don't think anything else. And you get all your intelligence there.
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna has said, mam ekam. "Don't go to these foolish rascals." Mam ekam. Otherwise you'll be misled. Because they are misleaders, rascals.
Dr. Patel: You are so very hard.
Prabhupada: I must be hard!
Dr. Patel: Hard, harsh, and hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: The whole world is spoiled for these Mayavadis. Therefore I am very much hard.
Dr. Patel: What... I don't say hard. Hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: No, we must be harder and harder.
Dr. Patel: Hard and harsh! Doesn't matter...
Prabhupada: I don't make any compromise with these rascals. No words. No, no. I never made that. Even if I don't get any disciples, I'll be satisfied. But I can't make any compromise like these rascals. I cannot make. Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tara sahasrasah. If I create one moon, that is sufficient. I don't want many stars. That was my Guru Maharaja's principle, and that is my principle. What is the use of having number of fools and rascals? If one man understands rightly, he can deliver the whole world. [break]
Guest (3): Do you mean the other persons...?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Own one who cannot understand rightly. That is another rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: Understanding God is always supraconscious with them. Never by the mind.
Prabhupada: They... One has to rise, rise... understand rightly from the right person. He cannot. He's imperfect. How he can understand rightly?
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: If a man has seen a place, that man will show you that place. That is how it is.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): But to reach that place there are several ways.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, tattva-darsinah. You have to approach a person who has seen the truth. You don't manufacture your own truth. That will be misleading. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic instruction. In order to understand scientifically, you must approach a guru.
Guest (3): And with a clean slate.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guest (3): With a clean slate of his mind.
Prabhupada: Yes. Samit-panih srotriyam.
Dr. Patel: It is complete spirit of submission.
Prabhupada: Submission. Because...
Dr. Patel: And inquiry also.
Prabhupada: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated
Prabhupada: Yes. But the westerners are not that. [break] ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many western men.
Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose...,
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...in the educational system...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): Inquiring of anything and every...
Prabhupada: No, inquiring submissively. Not that challenging. If one challenges to inquire, he'll never be benefited.
Dr. Patel: That is how... Even we have seen inquiring so intelligently. That man was such a big mathematical genius... [break]
Prabhupada: Knowledge cannot be acquired by challenge. Knowledge is acquired by submission. That is the process.
Dr. Patel: But I don't think I am challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why you are taking?
Dr. Patel: I am fixing the aruni (?) with another aruni. So you tell these boys I'm not challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. I am talking of the process, not of you personally. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise these people will go away with an idea that I am here to challenge you.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Guest (3): Nobody can challenge anybody. A Vaisnava... [break]
Prabhupada: ...thing is to be done submissively, pranipatena. Two things. Inquiry must be guided by two things: submission and seva.
Dr. Patel: First, according to Bhagavad-gita, most importance is sraddha... [break]
Prabhupada: ...jnanam. So that is the beginning. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. Atha bhajana-kriya. These are the step by step. Atha anartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah athasaktis tato bhavas sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the krama. Krama-patha. Everything is there in our Vedic literature. One has to study cool-headed, and he'll get the things. [break] ...ment of Krsna consciousness or spiritual consciousness is based on sraddha. Just like Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one actually has sraddha, "Yes, Krsna says like this, then I'll accept Krsna." That is sraddha. "Krsna says... Oh, Krsna says like this. Why shall I surrender to Him?" That is not sraddha. Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one accepts this principle, then there is sraddha. That is explained by Caitanya-caritamrta (indistinct):
sraddha-sabde -- visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya
krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya
[Cc. Madhya 22.62]
This is sraddha. Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Firm faith. "Yes, Krsna has said that mam ekam saranam vraja, I will accept it. I will accept it. Even I do not understand, I will accept it." That is called visvasa sudrdha niscaya. And faith means krsne bhakti, "If I surrender to Krsna, then my all perfection is there." This is called sraddha.
Dr. Patel: I... Shall I ask you one thing?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] As soon as...
Dr. Patel: What are the papas and what are the punyas?
Prabhupada: Papa means so long you accept this material body.
Dr. Patel: Is papa.
Prabhupada: Is papa. Either you accept as, a material body as Brahma or as insignificant ant, it is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything is papa. Anything is papa. Anything which you make removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Just like outlaw. Outlaw means who does not care for the government laws. Similarly, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. The law means dharma, law. Dharma means to accept the laws of God. And what is the law? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the law. If one cannot accept this, then he's outlaw. Immediately.
Dr. Patel: And that is papa.
Prabhupada: That is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything which makes you removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: That is what I could not understand.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Anything means this is also: Krsna says, "You surrender," and if I do not surrender, that is papa. (sound of kirtana in background, approaching temple)
Guest (5) (Indian man): But serving to poor is serving the whole...
Prabhupada: (laughs) Again that disease. It has become a disease.
Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Is that called punya?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Guest (5): Serving the poor?
Prabhupada: What is the use of your serving poor? Are you serving the poor? Why do you talk like that?
Guest (5): I want to ask you.
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, are you serving the poor?
Guest (5): Yes, sir. I am a doctor. And we see only poverty. So I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Then, then every... So every patient is a poor, and every doctor is punyavan.
Dr. Patel: Ha, every doctor is a fool. Like me.
Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Swamiji...
Dr. Patel: Swami, Swami answered.
Prabhupada: This has become a slogan, "Serving the poor." Where is the sastra? Where Bhagavad-gita it is said, "Serving the poor?"
Guest (5): It doesn't say. No, I know. But...
Prabhupada: You are yourself poor. How you can serve? (laughter)
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)
Guest (5): No. Yes, I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That's all right. We should... First of all, we should know that "I am the poorest of the poor."
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: So first of all let me become rich. Then I shall serve. (pause) [break] Hare Krsna beat. (sound of kirtana in background) People will come and hear Hare Krsna. This slogan has spread, "If I serve the poor..." And what you have got, you will serve the poor? You have to work like an ass to earn your livelihood, and you are going to serve the poor.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) What is meant by service?
Prabhupada: No, and the poor cannot be served. Service, service to be rendered to the higher authority.
Guest (3): By serving poor, you are serving yourself.
Prabhupada: No, serving nobody. Now, Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission... Just hear, doctor. Ah. Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission, when I went to America, I met him. He said that "The Americans are asking that 'You take money from us for serving the poor.' But when we go to India, we simply see poor men are lying on the footpath. So what you are doing with this money?" You see? This is a plea for collection of money, "to serve the poor." What... [break] Yes. I know in America there are so many foundations. You see? And there are so many cheats also. They found a society. And the managers of the foundations, they have got plea, and they get out all the money. I have seen. Who was that? That Mr. Bogus? No, Bogart. Bogart. I used to call him "Mr. Bogus." (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Americans are very clever at using money.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have made a clique with the managers of the foundation, and they present by literature all lies. The subject matter is India. "Oh, so many people are starving, so many..." In this way they take money from the managers, and it is divided amongst themselves.
Dr. Patel: They are the (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhava-bhuti: Also, Prabhupada, there was one report that the Red Cross, seventy-five percent of the money collected went on advertising.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Dr. Patel: America is living on advertisement. Right or wrong? I have been studying American, I mean, psychology.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I understand.
Dr. Patel: Psychology.
Prabhupada: That I understand.
Dr. Patel: And they really are purely running away without... They have no peace of mind.[break]
Prabhupada: The other day one American devotee, he said, "Sir, I see..." He first came, "I see the poorest man here is happier than the richest man in my country." He said like that.
Dr. Patel: Because they have got no peace of mind.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And every...
Prabhupada: And that is... [break]
Dr. Patel: This, any act of competition is a sin and a violence against...
Prabhupada: [break] ...competition even Krsna. Krishnamurti's competition even Krsna. You know that?
Dr. Patel: No, I didn't know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Krishnamurti, I read a couple of books. He said that nothing, everything...
Prabhupada: Does he say anything about Krsna?
Dr. Patel: Yes, he does say.
Prabhupada: What does he say?
Dr. Patel: He says the Krsna's all names are all, God is also His name. Because the God, it is Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. What does he say about personal Krsna? Does he know anything?
Bhagavata: He said, "You are your own guru," Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is...
Devotee: I have heard him.
Prabhupada: You see? Krsna says, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet... [MU 1.2.12]. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. He says, "Everyone is guru." Just see. "Everyone is guru." Then why you are instructing? Why you are becoming guru?
Dr. Patel: He's not becoming guru of anybody.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why does he say that "You do this"? That is guru. Guru means one who orders. That is guru. That means you reject all other gurus... That means... He means to say that "You reject all other gurus. Accept me guru." That's all.
Guest (3): That is not... That is what he...
Prabhupada: That is competition.
Guest (3): All gurus are like that. All gurus are like that.
Bhava-bhuti:. He's writing many books saying "There's no need for books."
Prabhupada: Accha. Now see. He says, "There is no need of books." And he writes books, Krsna books.
Guest (3): Yes. Yes. What you have
Bhagavata: He said, Everything is within you. So you are your own guru and..."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Bhagavata: ...everything will be revealed to you."
Dr. Patel: It may be within him, all right. He must drag it out.
Prabhupada: No, no. Now, just see how he is making nonsense competition.
Guest (3): Vasarambhanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Vasarambhanam.
Dr. Patel: Vasarambhanam caro namadheyam (?). [break]
Prabhupada: He's writing books, and he says, "There is no need of books."
Guest (3): He has written so many books, not one.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...nonsense. Directly. You, that... Our, our criterion is, because we are Krsna conscious people, Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
So anyone we see that he does not know about Krsna, he's a mudha.
Dr. Patel: Catur-vidha bhajante mam...
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dr. Patel: I think we are of one of those four categories. Or we are also mudha?
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: No. At least, give us some claim. (laughs)
Prabhupada: You are, you are catur-vidha.
Guest (3): Artharthi.
Prabhupada: Not artharthi. Jnani. No, I must give the proper position. Jnani...
Dr. Patel: You have, you have admitted at the end, before these boys.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: You have rehabilitated me. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: ...pious, how you would come daily to see the mangala-arati? This is the proof.
Dr. Patel: That is, we are, we are brought up like that from our...
Prabhupada: That is, that means you are pious.
Guest (3): You are pious.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Sucinam sukrtam grhe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): Yoga-bhrasta...
Dr. Patel: Yoga-bhrasta... [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: Sufi philosophy, there's one professor, so-called professor, Baba Ramdas. He says there's no need for talking, but he has many thousands of followers. They all gather around him.
Prabhupada: But he's talking.
Makhanalal: Yes. But he's talking.
Prabhupada: He's talking. These are the defects.
Dr. Patel: Huh?
Prabhupada: Some rascal has said that "There is no need of talking." But this is also talking, "There is no need of talking." Why he's talking?
Dr. Patel: Just a rascal says, "There is no need of cutting."
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing.
Makhanalal: But he is trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: Sevaya pranipatena. Sevaya. [break]
Dr. Patel: I, I... Do you like it? I have to ask you.
Prabhupada: No. Thank you so much.
Dr. Patel: Do you like it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I wear it for you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: All this... How do you like? [break] (kirtana) (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- March 23, 1974, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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