Bombay, March 24, 1974
download Players
Prabhupada:The first business is to
fix up the mind at the lotus feet of Krsna. Then engage the tongue in describing
the activities of Krsna. Therefore Krsna has acted in so many ways so that we
can remember the history of the activities of Krsna and discuss it. Vacamsi
vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane. Then the legs should be used for going to the temple.
Hands should be used for cleansing the temple. Nose should be used for smelling
the flowers offered to Krsna. Ears should be used for hearing about Krsna. In
this way if we engage our senses in different activities relating to Krsna, that
is success of life. This is Krsna consciousness, Vacamsi
vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane. (Hindi) So now you can talk. (laughter) Hare Krsna.
(Hindi) [break] Practical purposes. This land and that water is matter, but we
are walking on the land. Can you walk on the water?Dr. Patel: Who is
walking?
Prabhupada: Huh? You are walking, I am walking.
Dr. Patel: God is walking.
Prabhupada: So so long you are...
Dr. Patel: Body is matter.
Prabhupada: ...in the body, so we have to behave duality. (laughter) You cannot say oneness. When you are liberated from the body, that is another thing. For practical purposes... This philosophy was discussed by the mother of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu when He was a child, this philosophy. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was given very nice sweetmeats to eat. So instead of eating the sweetmeat, He was eating the dirt. So mother said, "My dear child, why You are eating dirt? I have given You sandesa." "Mother, what is the difference between this dirt and sandesa? It is all Brahman." You see? So His mother said, "My dear child, You are all right. Just like this is earth, and there is earthen pot. So if you want to keep water, you cannot throw the water on the ground. You have to take the earthen pot." So this philosophy of oneness and difference was already discussed when Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a child. Simultaneously one and different. Yes. Earthen pot and earth, actually, from the material point of view, they're the same thing. But if you want to keep water you cannot keep it on the ground. You have to take to the jug. (Hindi) [break]
Dr. Patel: I promise you I won't. Because you are trying to choke me.
Prabhupada: No, I am not... We should have discussion. That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Shall we?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Under your command?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: All right. Mayadhyaksena...
Prabhupada:
mayadhyaksena prakrtih
suyate sa-caracaram
hetunanena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
Dr. Patel: That means...?
Prabhupada: "Because of My direction." Hetunanena. "On this account." Mayadhyaksena. "Under My Supreme control." Just like these boys and girls, my students, they are working under my direction. They are individuals, I am also individual. And they have got their independence, to obey or not to obey, but still, they are directed under my supervision. Similarly, this material nature has got individual power. Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-
Dr. Patel: We call him Baby. He is innocent like a baby.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very good qualification. But sometimes babies are misled. [break]
Dr. Patel:
yatah pravrttir bhutanam
yena sarvam idam tatam
svakarmana tam abhyarcya
siddhim vindati manavah
Prabhupada: Samsiddhim labhate param.
Dr. Patel: So, now let us surrender. Yena sarvam idam tatam.
Prabhupada: Yena sarvam idam tatam. Yena, that is person. Yena. That is not imperson. That is person. Is it not?
Guest (1) (Indian man): Yes.
Dr. Patel: We have to say yes before you. (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, no. You are a Sanskrit scholar.
Dr. Patel: I am not. I have just very little Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: No, no. Yena, this word means person. Yena. This is person.
Dr. Patel: Both imperson and person. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati manavah. Now that girl, the doctor lady, you choked the other day in the morning, she, poor thing wanted that "I am practicing the medicine and serving people," and you call her a fool, "You are a damn fool." Well, she's doing the...
Prabhupada: She is not serving. She's serving her... Everyone is serving money, money.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati...
Prabhupada: That's all right. This serving, everyone is serving. Unless he pays, no service. That is not service.
Guest (1): If we expect payment...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here, service, Krsna is...
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Do you want to throw it up in the sea?
Prabhupada: No, no. It is, everyone in this material world, serving somebody. Serving somebody. Because he is servant.
Dr. Patel: He's serving somebody or everybody. More or less it is...
Prabhupada: No, no. No. Everybody or somebody. "Everyone's servant is nobody's servant." That is an English proverb. Anyway, this service is required. You cannot live without serving. That is not possible. Anyone of us, serving somebody. But the result is, this material service... I have given several times the example that Mahatma Gandhi, he gave so much service. But result was he was killed. He was killed. Nobody thought... That person did not think that, "Oh, this gentleman, old man, he has given so much service to us. Suppose I do not agree with him. Oh, how can I kill?" So people are so much ingrateful. You see? That whatever service you may render, they'll never be satisfied.
Dr. Patel: That service was svakarmana, the karma...
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all I am describing the service, what is service. Service means a servant, a master. And the transaction between the master and the servant is called service. Try to understand what is service. So we have created so many masters. The wife master, the family master, the country master, the legislative master, this master, that master. You see? And you are giving service. "Oh, it is my duty. I am giving service." But ask anybody if you are satisfied? He'll say, "What you have done?"
Guest (1): He won't be satisfied.
Prabhupada: No. They'll never be satisfied. Kamadi... But this service is service to my kama, krodha, lobha, moha, matsarya. I am giving service to my wife because she satisfies me by sense gratification. Therefore I'm not giving service to my wife, but I'm giving service to my senses. So ultimately, we are servant of the senses. We are nobody's servants. This is our material position. Yes. Ultimately, we are servant of our senses.
Guest (1): Or we are the servant of our ego.
Prabhupada: So the position is constitutionally I am servant, but at the present moment, being conditioned by the material nature, I am giving service to my senses. Hare Krsna. But if I give service to the master of the senses, Hrsikesa... Because senses, they are not independent. They are also dependent. Suppose I am now moving my hands, but if the master of my hand, Krsna, paralyzes it, no more moving. Neither I can renovate the moving capacity of my hand. Therefore I am not master. Although I am claiming I am master of my hand, master of my leg, but actually I am not. The master is different. Therefore Krsna's another name is Hrsikesa, master of the senses. Therefore the service should be transferred. Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. We have engaged our senses for different purposes, but when we engage our senses for the service of the master of the senses, that is called bhakti. Bhakti is also service, but it is not service to the senses, but it is service to the master of the senses. This is bhakti. So constitutionally I am servant. I cannot become master. I have to serve. So if I don't serve the master of the senses, then I will have to serve the senses. This is our position.
Dr. Patel: I was... I wanted a little exposition on this, svakarmana tam abhyarcya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Svakarmana.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmana. Now the karma of a man... I will speak for the while, huh?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: The karma of a man depends upon his position in the society...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, (etc.)
Dr. Patel: ...whether he's a ksatriya, vaisya, sudra whether he's a sannyasi or a grhastha. That karma. And that karma when he does without any expectation of any fruits, that karma is as good as bhakti according to this line, svakarmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati manavah.
Prabhupada: No, no. Without... The result should be there, but tam, unto Krsna. Give the result to Krsna. Tam abhyarcya. Not self. You earn lakhs of rupees, but tam abhyarcya, give to Krsna. Not take it yourself or distribute amongst your children. That is service. Tam abhyarcya. Tam abhyarcya. First of all understand this word, tam. Tam abhyarcya.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmana tam abhyarcya, karmana.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: How can you (indistinct) this is a karma? That is why I want to know.
Prabhupada: No, karma.
Dr. Patel: Karmana abhyarcya.
Prabhupada: Karma, karmana, by your work. Just like you are working as a medical practitioner. So you earn lakhs of rupees. Give to Krsna. That is tam abhyarcya. Then you become perfect. That is also confirmed in Bhagavata. Atah pumbhir dvija-sresthah. We have already explained that our karma, according to varna and asrama... Atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah. Everyone is working according to varna and asrama. So svanusthitasya dharmasya. Anyone who is serving according to his dharma, an engineer, a doctor, or somebody else, according to his occupational duty he is serving. But he has to see, svakarmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate. It is Gita. And it is said, svanusthitasya dharmasya samsiddhih, perfection. What is that? Hari-tosanam. We have to see whether Krsna is satisfied. So you earn lakhs of rupees and give it to Krsna. Krsna said yat karosi, "Never mind what you are doing," kurusva tad mad arpanam, "give Me it." (laughter) And "No, no, no, sir. I'm serving You, but the money is in my pocket."
Dr. Patel: Everything is Krsna's. How can you give anything? Even a leaf?
Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes. Just like these boys and girls are giving. Oh, that is the philosophy. These boys, girls, they are giving everything. Whole life. Whole life. They have no... They do not ask even a single payasa from me that "My dear sir, please give me four anas. I'll go to the cinema." You see? They are serving. Everything they have given. This boy, you like this Giriraja. He's earning at least 50,000 per month. Not a single payasa, even fifty n.p. he does not keep. This is service. They are not poor. They're earning, but everything for Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Giriraja, how you are earning fifty thousand rupees a month?
Prabhupada: Yes. Fifty-thousand. Because fifty members. Fifty members, eleven hundred rupees. He makes at least two, three members. If some day absent, average fifty. Fifty thousand. Not a single fifty n.p. he keeps. There are many. All, all of them. Not that everyone is earning fifty thousand, but even fifty hundred or fifty payasa, everything for Krsna. That is tam abhyarcya. And if you divide partially, "Some percentage for Krsna, some percentage for my sense gratification," then Krsna says, ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Proportionately. If you have spent cent percent of your energy for Krsna, Krsna is cent percent for you. And if you have spent one percent for Krsna, Krsna is one percent for you. Responsive cooperation. (laughter) Yes. This institution has advanced so much all over the world because we have got these boys who have dedicated everything for Krsna. Therefore it has so quickly advanced all over the world. They do not think of anything of personal. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. Krsna is also... Huh?
Guest (1): What is that samsiddhi noun?
Prabhupada: Samsiddhi means perfection. Samsiddhih paramam gatah.
Dr. Patel: What is samsiddhi actually?
Prabhupada: Samsiddhi means perfect perfection. Samyak perfection.
Dr. Patel: What is perfection?
Prabhupada: Perfection means you are living entity, you are living entity you are rotting in this material world, get free from this material world, go back to home. That is samsiddhi. We are suffering so much on account of being in the material world. Tri-tapa-yatana (?), threefold miseries. And everyone is trying to get out of the miseries, but that is not possible in the material world. Therefore you get your spiritual form, and go back to Krsna and dance with him. That is samsiddhi. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is samsiddhi. "After giving up this body, no more accepting any more material body." Then, he's zero? No. Mam eti. "He comes to Me, to dance with Me, to play with Me." That is samsiddhi. Krta-punya-punjah. When Sukadeva Gosvami was describing the cowherds boy playing with Krsna, he described, ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya...
ittham satam brahma-sukhanubhutya
dasyam gatanam para-daivatena
mayasritanam nara-darakena
sakam vijahruh krta-punya-punjah
[SB 10.12.11]
These boys, these cowherds boys, they have accumulated, krta-punya-punjah, heaps of pious activities, therefore they are now allowed to play with Krsna. Krta-punya-punjah. Not ordinary thing. So the impersonalists, they cannot understand, "What is this, playing with Krsna, cowherds boy?" But here it is said, krta-punya-punjah. This is not ordinary thing. Ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya. Satam. Those who are trying to appreciate brahma-sukha, for them, here is the Supreme Truth, Krsna. And dasyam gatanam para-daivatena. And those who have accepted to become the servant of the Lord, for them here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And mayasritanam nara-darakena. Mudha. Mayasritanam. They are thinking, "Oh, He is Krsna, ordinary boy. What is this?" But they are playing. These boys are playing with Him. Why? Krta-punya-punjah. Of many lives pious activities, they have come to this position, krta-punya-punjah. Mayasritanam nara-darakena. Hare Krsna. [break] ...to understand Krsna and to engage himself in the service of the Lord, it requires a qualification, that completely... Yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam [Bg. 7.28]. Jananam punya-ka... Those who are simply... This is the highest punya-karma, to engage one life's activities only for the service of Krsna. That is the greatest punya-karma. And material punya-karma, a little discrepancy... Just like Nrga. Nrga. What is that? He was very charitable, distributing cows, and little mistake, he had to become an alligator.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, yes. And he fell into that...
Prabhupada: Well.
Dr. Patel: Well, yes. And those boys came and Krsna saved him.
Prabhupada: Daily thousands of cows he was distributing.
Dr. Patel: And one day brahmana's cow was wrongfully given.
Prabhupada: Yes. So these material pious activity is like that. There is risk. There is risk.
Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?
Prabhupada: Accha? We shall go a little more? Little more let us go. Krta-punya-punjah [SB 10.12.11].
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) ...but you start when there is little light. Not in the darkness.
Dr. Patel: Before we were starting earlier, at quarter to six. Now we are doing at six-thirty.
Prabhupada: Not six-thirty.
Dr. Patel: Real pleasure is coming at six. It is really very fine here.
Prabhupada: [break] And they want to come when there is little light. I can come at two o'clock. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday?
Prabhupada: Everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday at three o'clock and wake you up?
Prabhupada: Oh yes, anytime. I get up at one o'clock. Everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: I get up at three o'clock and read. One day I will come into your room.
Prabhupada: So you are late, late like that. Than me. I rise at one o'clock.
Dr. Patel: And you go to bed at twelve?
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: Nine o'clock.
Prabhupada: No. I go to bed between ten to eleven.
Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine-thirty. I must go to bed early. Otherwise, I can't get up.
Prabhupada: All right, let us go. [break] ...dala, capatis, (indistinct) brahmanas cook.
Dr. Patel: He has a very good cook. That day I don't know how he ran away, or... You striked him, no?
Prabhupada: No, sometimes they smoke bidis. That is the difficulty.
Indian (2): That is not in the presence of the kitchen itself, but outside.
Dr. Patel: They do all sorts of nonsense.
Prabhupada: That is the difficulty.
Dr. Patel: If we don't allow them, they do it.
Prabhupada: And they will drink tea, smoke.
Dr. Patel: They always drink tea, all the cooks. They won't like...
Prabhupada: That is the difficulty with us. We do not want to set such bad examples. [break] ...Hindu system is very hygienic. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Extremely hygienic. The W.C.'s also.
Prabhupada: Everything.
Dr. Patel: They must be kept extremely clean or some of the diseases, you must have (indistinct)
Prabhupada: These European, American boys, they gave up their smoking habit, drinking tea habit, all habits, meat-eating, immediately. But if we ask any Indian, he has to consider for three generations.
Dr. Patel: That is because they have been so trained from childhood.
Prabhupada: No, no. They have been trained so (indistinct) from childhood, meat-eating, drinking wine, drinking tea, smoking, and illicit sex, but they gave up immediately.
Dr. Patel: But in hygiene also they have (indistinct) our way.
Prabhupada: They are observing hygienic principle as far as possible, but only thing is they require little guidance.
Dr. Patel: This kitchen behind is too small, hotel, they...
Prabhupada: No. We can make a big kitchen, we have got enough room.
Dr. Patel: I told them, maybe away we must have a small room attached to it where these boys can take... [break] (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: ...I am not this body.
Dr. Patel: That's right. So the mosquitos also have no body.
Prabhupada: They tolerate. Actually, they tolerate because they factually think that "I am not this body. Let the mosquito bite my body."
Dr. Patel: (laughs) So mosquitos also have no body.
Prabhupada: Narottama dasa Thakura says, deha smrti nahi yara samsara bandhana kaha tara (?). One who is beyond the conception of bodies, he has no obligation of these material things. Just like there are many sadhus, they simply remain naked body. Even in severe cold. They are practiced.
Dr. Patel: They have reached that avadhuta-vesa.
Prabhupada: So this is also avadhuta-vesa.
Dr. Patel: But that stage you must reach.
Prabhupada: No, somehow or other, they have gone to some extent. Never mind the mosquito. Let bite. I am not this body."
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You have hypnotized them.
Prabhupada: No, actually they are doing. Although we see that from bodily point of view they have become weak, but they don't care for it. They... You see. If they had been weak how they are chanting and dancing sankirtana? They are not weak at all. (Hindi) [break] "Now let me dance." Then I shall jump over your head." (Patel laughs) This is philosophy. "Now I am dasa, then I become your master."
Dr. Patel: How can you be master when I am nothing? When I am dasa, then I will be nothing before you.
Prabhupada: That is voidism. You are something. How you are nothing?
Dr. Patel: How can you be the master of a master?
Prabhupada: That is not possible, but these Mayavadis tries for this.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: These Mayavadis, they want to become the master. (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: They are Mayavadi?
Dr. Patel: No. They are Vaisnavas. All Vaisnavas.
Prabhupada: But they worship...
Dr. Patel: They worship Krsna.
Prabhupada: No. Krsna and their original...
Dr. Patel: Guru. They worship you, don't they?
Prabhupada: No, no. The guru can be worshiped, but...
Yasomatinandana: They worship guru as God.
Dr. Patel: No. God is God. How can...
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: They worship guru and God both.
Prabhupada: That is guru. Guru and God...
Dr. Patel: And you. You cannot have God without guru.
Prabhupada: And, "Let God go away." Oh, that is not good. That is not good.
Dr. Patel: It is not so. I think somebody has wrongly informed you, sir. And I will get you some comparative literatures to... [break] There are no four-hand there. There are no... You have wrongly seen and I have wrongly seen. No. That is...
Prabhupada: But you showed me the wrong thing.
Dr. Patel: It was not right thing, but we have not seen in the dark. It was right thing, it was Krsna's own photograph, and there were no four hands.
Prabhupada: But I saw the picture. The guru has four hands.
Dr. Patel: No. We saw it in dark, both of us. And I also wonder... [break]
Prabhupada: ...in a Rama mandira, but there was no Rama.
Dr. Patel: Yes, Rama mandiras have all degenerated.
Prabhupada: There was no Rama. The guru's picture. He's Rama.
Dr. Patel: That is Rama. All the temples of Sanjaya (?), there is always Krsna's (indistinct) there. [break]
Prabhupada: ...(indistinct) What is this?
Guest (2) (Indian man): No, no. He is from that sampradaya. [ They worship God as Swami Narayana. My Lord is Narayana. Swami means the Lord, and Narayana is the Lord. So they say always "Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana." Just like we chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, they chant "Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana." The Lord is Narayana, God is Narayana, God is Narayana. So Swami is Narayana. You see, actually what did he preach, "Our Swami is Narayana." So they have Swami Narayana song.
Prabhupada: That is Mayavada. That is Mayavada.
Guest (1): That is Mayavada, or whatever it may be.
Dr. Patel: Everything is Mayavada.
Guest (2): Oh, Lord is Narayana.
Prabhupada: As soon as we say, "Our Swami is Narayana," it is Mayavada.
Dr. Patel: It is not that. It is... What he says is not right.
Guest (1): No, that is, I understand. I have not...
Dr. Patel: You read all the magazines that I have read. He accepts... [break]
Prabhupada: ...Vivekananda has done: daridra-narayana. Here is "Swami Narayana."
Dr. Patel: That is different also. You don't put up two together.
Prabhupada: No, no. Same thing. Another...
Dr. Patel: Don't get excited or it will be...
Prabhupada: No, no. I'm not getting excited. You are getting.
Guest (1): You also don't get excited.
Dr. Patel: I am not getting excited, but it's not that. I will really bring you the real...
Prabhupada: No, no. I am asking what is the difference between this daridra-narayana and Swami Narayana? That I am asking.
Dr. Patel: See, he actually went to Badrinath. When we call Narayana, Narayana, as our Lord, how is it Mayavada? How it comes into Mayavadi?
Prabhupada: That is explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih. Guru is accepted as good as God. Haritvena samasta-sastraih. Saba-sastra.
Dr. Patel: In all sastras.
Prabhupada: Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktah **, it is said. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih **. And this principle is accepted by great saintly persons. Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. He's not one with the Prabhu, but he's very dear servant of Prabhu.
Dr. Patel: That is right.
Prabhupada: That conception is Vaisnavism. And as soon as you simply say that "He is God," that is Mayavada.
Guest (2): Yes but we are not... But he has wrongly...
Guest (1): No, Swami Narayana, what I told you the principle of Swami Narayana is that...
Guest (2): Swami Narayana...
Dr. Patel: You have no right to speak.
Guest (1): No, no. What I understand about this...
Dr. Patel: There are three schools of Vaisnavism. But that... In that school, the preaching and everything in the worship is the same, more or less.
Prabhupada: [break] The thing is... This is the conclusion, that guru may be worshiped as Krsna, but the worshiper knows that "I am worshiping my guru not because he has become Krsna, but he is the most confidential servant of Krsna." That is Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: All the Vaisnavas, what he has said. Every time he has said the same thing.
Prabhupada: This is the difference between Vaisnava school and Mayavadi school. Advaita-vada and dvaita-vada. They become very strong, at the same time, remain servant.
Dr. Patel: These suddhadvaita-vadis, their upper garment and lower garment the same as... [ ...you call Mayavadis, they say that this is all humbug and nothing and nonexistence. They... [break] ...both are one and both are right and both are existent and both are... There is no illusion, as you say. The same thing.
Prabhupada: Simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a little (indistinct)
Prabhupada: So unless you accept this difference, then it is Mayavada. Simply oneness is Mayavada.
Dr. Patel: That's right. You may... You accept one and the same, separate both or another explana..., another, only Krsna knows and nobody knows.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, why Krsna knows? One who is Krsna's devotee, he knows also.
Dr. Patel: All are Vaisnava devotees, aren't they?
Prabhupada: No, no. This is Mayavada. Not all of.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Vallabhacarya's devotees, Vaisnavas are not...?
Prabhupada: Vallabhacarya is a sampradaya.
Dr. Patel: But are they not Vaisnavas?
Prabhupada: That is a sampradaya. Visnu Svami-sampradaya. That is accepted. That is accepted.
Dr. Patel: Ramanujacarya's Vaisnava was not Vaisnava?
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Dr. Patel: Then why do you say so? They are all Vaisnavas but...
Prabhupada: But Ramanujacarya does not say that the devotee is God.
Dr. Patel: Nobody says so.
Prabhupada: No. [break] ...oneness with diversity. Yes. That is visistadvaita philosophy. And nirvisesa. Nirvisista-advaitavadi sankhya philosophy. Nirvisista.
Guest (1): Nirvisista means?
Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya.
Prabhupada: Nirvisista means... No, Vallabhacarya... suddhadvaita. Suddhadvaita. That is called kevaladvaita. Kevaladvaita. [break] Krsna is adi. Visnu is in the material world, He's accepted as one of the devas. Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. So Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2].
Guest (1): So Krsna is adi of Visnu...
Prabhupada: Visnu also.
Dr. Patel: Maha-Visnu.
Prabhupada: Yes. No Maha-Visnu is adi. Maha-Visnu is kala-visesa, partial exhibition of Krsna. That is said in the Brahma-samhita. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah, visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-visesah [Bs. 5.48]. This Maha-Visnu, from whose breathing innumerable universes are coming, that Maha-Visnu is kala-visesa.
yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya
jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah
visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-viseso
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.48]
Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] From Lord Brahma. Brahma.
Devotee: That was found by Lord Caitanya, Prabhupada? The Brahma-samhita?
Prabhupada: Yes. Some of the manuscripts were found in South India and He brought it and He delivered, that "This is authoritative."
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact, the Vaisnavism started from South India.
Prabhupada: Even Sankara was also South India.
Dr. Patel: Cult of Vaisnavism started from South India.
Prabhupada: All the acaryas, they came from South India.
Dr. Patel: They are more religious.
Prabhupada: Vallabhacarya also South India.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya is from North, no?
Prabhupada: South India. [break]
Dr. Patel: And the worst damn... [break]
Prabhupada: ...beaches. The sand is like this. Not like that.
Dr. Patel: Like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. This soft sand. But not walking, all sand. This Juhu Beach is specially nice.
Dr. Patel: Made for us. (laughs) [break]
Prabhupada: ...kingdom, the Maharastrian brahmanas, they were more staunch.
Dr. Patel: They did not serve Muslims, like brahmanas who are from Bengal and Gujarat. Gujarati brahmanas and Bengali brahmanas served the Muslims...
Prabhupada: Brahminical culture. Sanatana Gosvami, he was also brahmana, but because he served the Mohammedans, he was rejected from the brahmana society. Then Krsna, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu, raised them to the position of gosvamis. Their name was also changed. Dabir Khas.
Dr. Patel: Muslim name.
Prabhupada: Yes, Muslim name.
Dr. Patel: But here in Gujarat we have got so many brahmanas and... [break]
Prabhupada: ...magistrates.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but then these are Muslim brahmanas.
Prabhupada: So it is Muslim name. Their forefathers were magistrates. That's all. Kazi, there is no harm... Munshi, Kazi. They're common... [break] If you go to anyone, "Hare Krsna," they'll understand: "Here is Hare Krsna people." That's all. Hare Krsna. Anywhere, Africa, Australia, Japan, they know, "These are Hare Krsna people." We are known as "Hare Krsna people." So there are so many apartments... (end)
Prabhupada: Huh? You are walking, I am walking.
Dr. Patel: God is walking.
Prabhupada: So so long you are...
Dr. Patel: Body is matter.
Prabhupada: ...in the body, so we have to behave duality. (laughter) You cannot say oneness. When you are liberated from the body, that is another thing. For practical purposes... This philosophy was discussed by the mother of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu when He was a child, this philosophy. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was given very nice sweetmeats to eat. So instead of eating the sweetmeat, He was eating the dirt. So mother said, "My dear child, why You are eating dirt? I have given You sandesa." "Mother, what is the difference between this dirt and sandesa? It is all Brahman." You see? So His mother said, "My dear child, You are all right. Just like this is earth, and there is earthen pot. So if you want to keep water, you cannot throw the water on the ground. You have to take the earthen pot." So this philosophy of oneness and difference was already discussed when Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a child. Simultaneously one and different. Yes. Earthen pot and earth, actually, from the material point of view, they're the same thing. But if you want to keep water you cannot keep it on the ground. You have to take to the jug. (Hindi) [break]
Dr. Patel: I promise you I won't. Because you are trying to choke me.
Prabhupada: No, I am not... We should have discussion. That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Shall we?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Under your command?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: All right. Mayadhyaksena...
Prabhupada:
mayadhyaksena prakrtih
suyate sa-caracaram
hetunanena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
Dr. Patel: That means...?
Prabhupada: "Because of My direction." Hetunanena. "On this account." Mayadhyaksena. "Under My Supreme control." Just like these boys and girls, my students, they are working under my direction. They are individuals, I am also individual. And they have got their independence, to obey or not to obey, but still, they are directed under my supervision. Similarly, this material nature has got individual power. Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-
Dr. Patel: We call him Baby. He is innocent like a baby.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very good qualification. But sometimes babies are misled. [break]
Dr. Patel:
yatah pravrttir bhutanam
yena sarvam idam tatam
svakarmana tam abhyarcya
siddhim vindati manavah
Prabhupada: Samsiddhim labhate param.
Dr. Patel: So, now let us surrender. Yena sarvam idam tatam.
Prabhupada: Yena sarvam idam tatam. Yena, that is person. Yena. That is not imperson. That is person. Is it not?
Guest (1) (Indian man): Yes.
Dr. Patel: We have to say yes before you. (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, no. You are a Sanskrit scholar.
Dr. Patel: I am not. I have just very little Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: No, no. Yena, this word means person. Yena. This is person.
Dr. Patel: Both imperson and person. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati manavah. Now that girl, the doctor lady, you choked the other day in the morning, she, poor thing wanted that "I am practicing the medicine and serving people," and you call her a fool, "You are a damn fool." Well, she's doing the...
Prabhupada: She is not serving. She's serving her... Everyone is serving money, money.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati...
Prabhupada: That's all right. This serving, everyone is serving. Unless he pays, no service. That is not service.
Guest (1): If we expect payment...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here, service, Krsna is...
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Do you want to throw it up in the sea?
Prabhupada: No, no. It is, everyone in this material world, serving somebody. Serving somebody. Because he is servant.
Dr. Patel: He's serving somebody or everybody. More or less it is...
Prabhupada: No, no. No. Everybody or somebody. "Everyone's servant is nobody's servant." That is an English proverb. Anyway, this service is required. You cannot live without serving. That is not possible. Anyone of us, serving somebody. But the result is, this material service... I have given several times the example that Mahatma Gandhi, he gave so much service. But result was he was killed. He was killed. Nobody thought... That person did not think that, "Oh, this gentleman, old man, he has given so much service to us. Suppose I do not agree with him. Oh, how can I kill?" So people are so much ingrateful. You see? That whatever service you may render, they'll never be satisfied.
Dr. Patel: That service was svakarmana, the karma...
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all I am describing the service, what is service. Service means a servant, a master. And the transaction between the master and the servant is called service. Try to understand what is service. So we have created so many masters. The wife master, the family master, the country master, the legislative master, this master, that master. You see? And you are giving service. "Oh, it is my duty. I am giving service." But ask anybody if you are satisfied? He'll say, "What you have done?"
Guest (1): He won't be satisfied.
Prabhupada: No. They'll never be satisfied. Kamadi... But this service is service to my kama, krodha, lobha, moha, matsarya. I am giving service to my wife because she satisfies me by sense gratification. Therefore I'm not giving service to my wife, but I'm giving service to my senses. So ultimately, we are servant of the senses. We are nobody's servants. This is our material position. Yes. Ultimately, we are servant of our senses.
Guest (1): Or we are the servant of our ego.
Prabhupada: So the position is constitutionally I am servant, but at the present moment, being conditioned by the material nature, I am giving service to my senses. Hare Krsna. But if I give service to the master of the senses, Hrsikesa... Because senses, they are not independent. They are also dependent. Suppose I am now moving my hands, but if the master of my hand, Krsna, paralyzes it, no more moving. Neither I can renovate the moving capacity of my hand. Therefore I am not master. Although I am claiming I am master of my hand, master of my leg, but actually I am not. The master is different. Therefore Krsna's another name is Hrsikesa, master of the senses. Therefore the service should be transferred. Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. We have engaged our senses for different purposes, but when we engage our senses for the service of the master of the senses, that is called bhakti. Bhakti is also service, but it is not service to the senses, but it is service to the master of the senses. This is bhakti. So constitutionally I am servant. I cannot become master. I have to serve. So if I don't serve the master of the senses, then I will have to serve the senses. This is our position.
Dr. Patel: I was... I wanted a little exposition on this, svakarmana tam abhyarcya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Svakarmana.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmana. Now the karma of a man... I will speak for the while, huh?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: The karma of a man depends upon his position in the society...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, (etc.)
Dr. Patel: ...whether he's a ksatriya, vaisya, sudra whether he's a sannyasi or a grhastha. That karma. And that karma when he does without any expectation of any fruits, that karma is as good as bhakti according to this line, svakarmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati manavah.
Prabhupada: No, no. Without... The result should be there, but tam, unto Krsna. Give the result to Krsna. Tam abhyarcya. Not self. You earn lakhs of rupees, but tam abhyarcya, give to Krsna. Not take it yourself or distribute amongst your children. That is service. Tam abhyarcya. Tam abhyarcya. First of all understand this word, tam. Tam abhyarcya.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmana tam abhyarcya, karmana.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: How can you (indistinct) this is a karma? That is why I want to know.
Prabhupada: No, karma.
Dr. Patel: Karmana abhyarcya.
Prabhupada: Karma, karmana, by your work. Just like you are working as a medical practitioner. So you earn lakhs of rupees. Give to Krsna. That is tam abhyarcya. Then you become perfect. That is also confirmed in Bhagavata. Atah pumbhir dvija-sresthah. We have already explained that our karma, according to varna and asrama... Atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah. Everyone is working according to varna and asrama. So svanusthitasya dharmasya. Anyone who is serving according to his dharma, an engineer, a doctor, or somebody else, according to his occupational duty he is serving. But he has to see, svakarmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate. It is Gita. And it is said, svanusthitasya dharmasya samsiddhih, perfection. What is that? Hari-tosanam. We have to see whether Krsna is satisfied. So you earn lakhs of rupees and give it to Krsna. Krsna said yat karosi, "Never mind what you are doing," kurusva tad mad arpanam, "give Me it." (laughter) And "No, no, no, sir. I'm serving You, but the money is in my pocket."
Dr. Patel: Everything is Krsna's. How can you give anything? Even a leaf?
Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes. Just like these boys and girls are giving. Oh, that is the philosophy. These boys, girls, they are giving everything. Whole life. Whole life. They have no... They do not ask even a single payasa from me that "My dear sir, please give me four anas. I'll go to the cinema." You see? They are serving. Everything they have given. This boy, you like this Giriraja. He's earning at least 50,000 per month. Not a single payasa, even fifty n.p. he does not keep. This is service. They are not poor. They're earning, but everything for Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Giriraja, how you are earning fifty thousand rupees a month?
Prabhupada: Yes. Fifty-thousand. Because fifty members. Fifty members, eleven hundred rupees. He makes at least two, three members. If some day absent, average fifty. Fifty thousand. Not a single fifty n.p. he keeps. There are many. All, all of them. Not that everyone is earning fifty thousand, but even fifty hundred or fifty payasa, everything for Krsna. That is tam abhyarcya. And if you divide partially, "Some percentage for Krsna, some percentage for my sense gratification," then Krsna says, ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Proportionately. If you have spent cent percent of your energy for Krsna, Krsna is cent percent for you. And if you have spent one percent for Krsna, Krsna is one percent for you. Responsive cooperation. (laughter) Yes. This institution has advanced so much all over the world because we have got these boys who have dedicated everything for Krsna. Therefore it has so quickly advanced all over the world. They do not think of anything of personal. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. Krsna is also... Huh?
Guest (1): What is that samsiddhi noun?
Prabhupada: Samsiddhi means perfection. Samsiddhih paramam gatah.
Dr. Patel: What is samsiddhi actually?
Prabhupada: Samsiddhi means perfect perfection. Samyak perfection.
Dr. Patel: What is perfection?
Prabhupada: Perfection means you are living entity, you are living entity you are rotting in this material world, get free from this material world, go back to home. That is samsiddhi. We are suffering so much on account of being in the material world. Tri-tapa-yatana (?), threefold miseries. And everyone is trying to get out of the miseries, but that is not possible in the material world. Therefore you get your spiritual form, and go back to Krsna and dance with him. That is samsiddhi. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is samsiddhi. "After giving up this body, no more accepting any more material body." Then, he's zero? No. Mam eti. "He comes to Me, to dance with Me, to play with Me." That is samsiddhi. Krta-punya-punjah. When Sukadeva Gosvami was describing the cowherds boy playing with Krsna, he described, ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya...
ittham satam brahma-sukhanubhutya
dasyam gatanam para-daivatena
mayasritanam nara-darakena
sakam vijahruh krta-punya-punjah
[SB 10.12.11]
These boys, these cowherds boys, they have accumulated, krta-punya-punjah, heaps of pious activities, therefore they are now allowed to play with Krsna. Krta-punya-punjah. Not ordinary thing. So the impersonalists, they cannot understand, "What is this, playing with Krsna, cowherds boy?" But here it is said, krta-punya-punjah. This is not ordinary thing. Ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya. Satam. Those who are trying to appreciate brahma-sukha, for them, here is the Supreme Truth, Krsna. And dasyam gatanam para-daivatena. And those who have accepted to become the servant of the Lord, for them here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And mayasritanam nara-darakena. Mudha. Mayasritanam. They are thinking, "Oh, He is Krsna, ordinary boy. What is this?" But they are playing. These boys are playing with Him. Why? Krta-punya-punjah. Of many lives pious activities, they have come to this position, krta-punya-punjah. Mayasritanam nara-darakena. Hare Krsna. [break] ...to understand Krsna and to engage himself in the service of the Lord, it requires a qualification, that completely... Yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam [Bg. 7.28]. Jananam punya-ka... Those who are simply... This is the highest punya-karma, to engage one life's activities only for the service of Krsna. That is the greatest punya-karma. And material punya-karma, a little discrepancy... Just like Nrga. Nrga. What is that? He was very charitable, distributing cows, and little mistake, he had to become an alligator.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, yes. And he fell into that...
Prabhupada: Well.
Dr. Patel: Well, yes. And those boys came and Krsna saved him.
Prabhupada: Daily thousands of cows he was distributing.
Dr. Patel: And one day brahmana's cow was wrongfully given.
Prabhupada: Yes. So these material pious activity is like that. There is risk. There is risk.
Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?
Prabhupada: Accha? We shall go a little more? Little more let us go. Krta-punya-punjah [SB 10.12.11].
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) ...but you start when there is little light. Not in the darkness.
Dr. Patel: Before we were starting earlier, at quarter to six. Now we are doing at six-thirty.
Prabhupada: Not six-thirty.
Dr. Patel: Real pleasure is coming at six. It is really very fine here.
Prabhupada: [break] And they want to come when there is little light. I can come at two o'clock. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday?
Prabhupada: Everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday at three o'clock and wake you up?
Prabhupada: Oh yes, anytime. I get up at one o'clock. Everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: I get up at three o'clock and read. One day I will come into your room.
Prabhupada: So you are late, late like that. Than me. I rise at one o'clock.
Dr. Patel: And you go to bed at twelve?
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: Nine o'clock.
Prabhupada: No. I go to bed between ten to eleven.
Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine-thirty. I must go to bed early. Otherwise, I can't get up.
Prabhupada: All right, let us go. [break] ...dala, capatis, (indistinct) brahmanas cook.
Dr. Patel: He has a very good cook. That day I don't know how he ran away, or... You striked him, no?
Prabhupada: No, sometimes they smoke bidis. That is the difficulty.
Indian (2): That is not in the presence of the kitchen itself, but outside.
Dr. Patel: They do all sorts of nonsense.
Prabhupada: That is the difficulty.
Dr. Patel: If we don't allow them, they do it.
Prabhupada: And they will drink tea, smoke.
Dr. Patel: They always drink tea, all the cooks. They won't like...
Prabhupada: That is the difficulty with us. We do not want to set such bad examples. [break] ...Hindu system is very hygienic. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Extremely hygienic. The W.C.'s also.
Prabhupada: Everything.
Dr. Patel: They must be kept extremely clean or some of the diseases, you must have (indistinct)
Prabhupada: These European, American boys, they gave up their smoking habit, drinking tea habit, all habits, meat-eating, immediately. But if we ask any Indian, he has to consider for three generations.
Dr. Patel: That is because they have been so trained from childhood.
Prabhupada: No, no. They have been trained so (indistinct) from childhood, meat-eating, drinking wine, drinking tea, smoking, and illicit sex, but they gave up immediately.
Dr. Patel: But in hygiene also they have (indistinct) our way.
Prabhupada: They are observing hygienic principle as far as possible, but only thing is they require little guidance.
Dr. Patel: This kitchen behind is too small, hotel, they...
Prabhupada: No. We can make a big kitchen, we have got enough room.
Dr. Patel: I told them, maybe away we must have a small room attached to it where these boys can take... [break] (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: ...I am not this body.
Dr. Patel: That's right. So the mosquitos also have no body.
Prabhupada: They tolerate. Actually, they tolerate because they factually think that "I am not this body. Let the mosquito bite my body."
Dr. Patel: (laughs) So mosquitos also have no body.
Prabhupada: Narottama dasa Thakura says, deha smrti nahi yara samsara bandhana kaha tara (?). One who is beyond the conception of bodies, he has no obligation of these material things. Just like there are many sadhus, they simply remain naked body. Even in severe cold. They are practiced.
Dr. Patel: They have reached that avadhuta-vesa.
Prabhupada: So this is also avadhuta-vesa.
Dr. Patel: But that stage you must reach.
Prabhupada: No, somehow or other, they have gone to some extent. Never mind the mosquito. Let bite. I am not this body."
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You have hypnotized them.
Prabhupada: No, actually they are doing. Although we see that from bodily point of view they have become weak, but they don't care for it. They... You see. If they had been weak how they are chanting and dancing sankirtana? They are not weak at all. (Hindi) [break] "Now let me dance." Then I shall jump over your head." (Patel laughs) This is philosophy. "Now I am dasa, then I become your master."
Dr. Patel: How can you be master when I am nothing? When I am dasa, then I will be nothing before you.
Prabhupada: That is voidism. You are something. How you are nothing?
Dr. Patel: How can you be the master of a master?
Prabhupada: That is not possible, but these Mayavadis tries for this.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: These Mayavadis, they want to become the master. (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: They are Mayavadi?
Dr. Patel: No. They are Vaisnavas. All Vaisnavas.
Prabhupada: But they worship...
Dr. Patel: They worship Krsna.
Prabhupada: No. Krsna and their original...
Dr. Patel: Guru. They worship you, don't they?
Prabhupada: No, no. The guru can be worshiped, but...
Yasomatinandana: They worship guru as God.
Dr. Patel: No. God is God. How can...
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: They worship guru and God both.
Prabhupada: That is guru. Guru and God...
Dr. Patel: And you. You cannot have God without guru.
Prabhupada: And, "Let God go away." Oh, that is not good. That is not good.
Dr. Patel: It is not so. I think somebody has wrongly informed you, sir. And I will get you some comparative literatures to... [break] There are no four-hand there. There are no... You have wrongly seen and I have wrongly seen. No. That is...
Prabhupada: But you showed me the wrong thing.
Dr. Patel: It was not right thing, but we have not seen in the dark. It was right thing, it was Krsna's own photograph, and there were no four hands.
Prabhupada: But I saw the picture. The guru has four hands.
Dr. Patel: No. We saw it in dark, both of us. And I also wonder... [break]
Prabhupada: ...in a Rama mandira, but there was no Rama.
Dr. Patel: Yes, Rama mandiras have all degenerated.
Prabhupada: There was no Rama. The guru's picture. He's Rama.
Dr. Patel: That is Rama. All the temples of Sanjaya (?), there is always Krsna's (indistinct) there. [break]
Prabhupada: ...(indistinct) What is this?
Guest (2) (Indian man): No, no. He is from that sampradaya. [ They worship God as Swami Narayana. My Lord is Narayana. Swami means the Lord, and Narayana is the Lord. So they say always "Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana." Just like we chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, they chant "Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana." The Lord is Narayana, God is Narayana, God is Narayana. So Swami is Narayana. You see, actually what did he preach, "Our Swami is Narayana." So they have Swami Narayana song.
Prabhupada: That is Mayavada. That is Mayavada.
Guest (1): That is Mayavada, or whatever it may be.
Dr. Patel: Everything is Mayavada.
Guest (2): Oh, Lord is Narayana.
Prabhupada: As soon as we say, "Our Swami is Narayana," it is Mayavada.
Dr. Patel: It is not that. It is... What he says is not right.
Guest (1): No, that is, I understand. I have not...
Dr. Patel: You read all the magazines that I have read. He accepts... [break]
Prabhupada: ...Vivekananda has done: daridra-narayana. Here is "Swami Narayana."
Dr. Patel: That is different also. You don't put up two together.
Prabhupada: No, no. Same thing. Another...
Dr. Patel: Don't get excited or it will be...
Prabhupada: No, no. I'm not getting excited. You are getting.
Guest (1): You also don't get excited.
Dr. Patel: I am not getting excited, but it's not that. I will really bring you the real...
Prabhupada: No, no. I am asking what is the difference between this daridra-narayana and Swami Narayana? That I am asking.
Dr. Patel: See, he actually went to Badrinath. When we call Narayana, Narayana, as our Lord, how is it Mayavada? How it comes into Mayavadi?
Prabhupada: That is explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih. Guru is accepted as good as God. Haritvena samasta-sastraih. Saba-sastra.
Dr. Patel: In all sastras.
Prabhupada: Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktah **, it is said. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih **. And this principle is accepted by great saintly persons. Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. He's not one with the Prabhu, but he's very dear servant of Prabhu.
Dr. Patel: That is right.
Prabhupada: That conception is Vaisnavism. And as soon as you simply say that "He is God," that is Mayavada.
Guest (2): Yes but we are not... But he has wrongly...
Guest (1): No, Swami Narayana, what I told you the principle of Swami Narayana is that...
Guest (2): Swami Narayana...
Dr. Patel: You have no right to speak.
Guest (1): No, no. What I understand about this...
Dr. Patel: There are three schools of Vaisnavism. But that... In that school, the preaching and everything in the worship is the same, more or less.
Prabhupada: [break] The thing is... This is the conclusion, that guru may be worshiped as Krsna, but the worshiper knows that "I am worshiping my guru not because he has become Krsna, but he is the most confidential servant of Krsna." That is Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: All the Vaisnavas, what he has said. Every time he has said the same thing.
Prabhupada: This is the difference between Vaisnava school and Mayavadi school. Advaita-vada and dvaita-vada. They become very strong, at the same time, remain servant.
Dr. Patel: These suddhadvaita-vadis, their upper garment and lower garment the same as... [ ...you call Mayavadis, they say that this is all humbug and nothing and nonexistence. They... [break] ...both are one and both are right and both are existent and both are... There is no illusion, as you say. The same thing.
Prabhupada: Simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a little (indistinct)
Prabhupada: So unless you accept this difference, then it is Mayavada. Simply oneness is Mayavada.
Dr. Patel: That's right. You may... You accept one and the same, separate both or another explana..., another, only Krsna knows and nobody knows.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, why Krsna knows? One who is Krsna's devotee, he knows also.
Dr. Patel: All are Vaisnava devotees, aren't they?
Prabhupada: No, no. This is Mayavada. Not all of.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Vallabhacarya's devotees, Vaisnavas are not...?
Prabhupada: Vallabhacarya is a sampradaya.
Dr. Patel: But are they not Vaisnavas?
Prabhupada: That is a sampradaya. Visnu Svami-sampradaya. That is accepted. That is accepted.
Dr. Patel: Ramanujacarya's Vaisnava was not Vaisnava?
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Dr. Patel: Then why do you say so? They are all Vaisnavas but...
Prabhupada: But Ramanujacarya does not say that the devotee is God.
Dr. Patel: Nobody says so.
Prabhupada: No. [break] ...oneness with diversity. Yes. That is visistadvaita philosophy. And nirvisesa. Nirvisista-advaitavadi sankhya philosophy. Nirvisista.
Guest (1): Nirvisista means?
Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya.
Prabhupada: Nirvisista means... No, Vallabhacarya... suddhadvaita. Suddhadvaita. That is called kevaladvaita. Kevaladvaita. [break] Krsna is adi. Visnu is in the material world, He's accepted as one of the devas. Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. So Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2].
Guest (1): So Krsna is adi of Visnu...
Prabhupada: Visnu also.
Dr. Patel: Maha-Visnu.
Prabhupada: Yes. No Maha-Visnu is adi. Maha-Visnu is kala-visesa, partial exhibition of Krsna. That is said in the Brahma-samhita. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah, visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-visesah [Bs. 5.48]. This Maha-Visnu, from whose breathing innumerable universes are coming, that Maha-Visnu is kala-visesa.
yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya
jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah
visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-viseso
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.48]
Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] From Lord Brahma. Brahma.
Devotee: That was found by Lord Caitanya, Prabhupada? The Brahma-samhita?
Prabhupada: Yes. Some of the manuscripts were found in South India and He brought it and He delivered, that "This is authoritative."
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact, the Vaisnavism started from South India.
Prabhupada: Even Sankara was also South India.
Dr. Patel: Cult of Vaisnavism started from South India.
Prabhupada: All the acaryas, they came from South India.
Dr. Patel: They are more religious.
Prabhupada: Vallabhacarya also South India.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya is from North, no?
Prabhupada: South India. [break]
Dr. Patel: And the worst damn... [break]
Prabhupada: ...beaches. The sand is like this. Not like that.
Dr. Patel: Like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. This soft sand. But not walking, all sand. This Juhu Beach is specially nice.
Dr. Patel: Made for us. (laughs) [break]
Prabhupada: ...kingdom, the Maharastrian brahmanas, they were more staunch.
Dr. Patel: They did not serve Muslims, like brahmanas who are from Bengal and Gujarat. Gujarati brahmanas and Bengali brahmanas served the Muslims...
Prabhupada: Brahminical culture. Sanatana Gosvami, he was also brahmana, but because he served the Mohammedans, he was rejected from the brahmana society. Then Krsna, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu, raised them to the position of gosvamis. Their name was also changed. Dabir Khas.
Dr. Patel: Muslim name.
Prabhupada: Yes, Muslim name.
Dr. Patel: But here in Gujarat we have got so many brahmanas and... [break]
Prabhupada: ...magistrates.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but then these are Muslim brahmanas.
Prabhupada: So it is Muslim name. Their forefathers were magistrates. That's all. Kazi, there is no harm... Munshi, Kazi. They're common... [break] If you go to anyone, "Hare Krsna," they'll understand: "Here is Hare Krsna people." That's all. Hare Krsna. Anywhere, Africa, Australia, Japan, they know, "These are Hare Krsna people." We are known as "Hare Krsna people." So there are so many apartments... (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
No comments:
Post a Comment