Paris, June 12, 1974 download Players
Bhagavan: ...the original
beauty.Prabhupada: Original beauty, just like animals. They remain naked. So
the, the original beauty is animal. Because the animals, they do not dress. In
the human society, they cover. Animals do not cover. Therefore original beauty
is animal.
Satsvarupa: They say that this is, the body is made by God. Why cover it up? Nakedness is the work of God.
Prabhupada: No. God said that you should cover. (Some French boys in background are making mocking sounds, yelling, etc.) And they are becoming naked now. (yelling increases) What is that? They are laughing.
Satsvarupa: Crazy.
Bhagavan: Do we go left, Harinama?
Harinama: To the right. (more yelling, Prabhupada chuckles)
Bhagavan: When there is big kirtana party, then they stop laughing very quickly.
Prabhupada: What are these buildings?
Bhagavan: This is a big museum.
Prabhupada: Museum?
Bhagavan: Yes. [break]
Paramahamsa: Everything man creates...
Prabhupada: And why does he die?
Paramahamsa: We have got knowledge.
Prabhupada: Who has created death? Eh? Who has created death? Man creates everything, but who has created your death, Mr. Man? What is the answer?
Pusta-krsna: He has not created anything then.
Prabhupada: No no, no. I accept that man has created anything, everything. But who has created your death?
Pusta-krsna: God.
Prabhupada: Huh? Is there any answer?
Paramahamsa: Well, man has not created death.
Prabhupada: That means somebody has created. So how you can say that man has created everything? The fallacy, just see. How rascal they are. That I wanted to say.
Paramahamsa: You have quoted a great English poet who said...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: You have quoted a great English Poet who says that "Man has created the city..."
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Paramahamsa: "...and God has created the country."
Prabhupada: This is the statement of Mr. Cowper. Man has created nothing. Suppose this building, man has created. But wherefrom the ingredient comes. Has man created? This stone, man has created? Eh? What do you think? Is this stone, creation of man?
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: Then what... You have done the work of a laborer. That's all. You have taken ingredients from God and worked hard and transformed into a step. That's all. Your creation means just like carpenter creates a furniture. That's all. That is his creation. Then that is... The economic law says that man cannot create anything. He can simply transform. These trees, has man created these trees? Why do they claim man has created everything?
Pusta-krsna: But they will say that they made the garden.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Pusta-krsna: They will say that they made a very nice garden.
Prabhupada: That's all. That is the business of gardener, servant, not creator. That is the business of the servant. Just like I keep a gardener servant, and "Do like this. Do like that." That is not he is creator. It is my money which has created. Therefore it is Krsna's, everything. That is Krsna consciousness, that you have not created anything. You are servant. You are working, and Krsna is giving you your subsistence. That's all. So why don't you accept that you are servant of God instead of claiming that you have created. What you have created? This is our challenge. Am I right or wrong?
Paramahamsa: Right.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: Right.
Prabhupada: Yes. What you have created?
Paramahamsa: Life becomes so artificial. In the big city, people don't see that they depend on God.
Prabhupada: No, no. City or country, that I don't say that Mr. Cowper is perfect in his statement. City is also created by God. City is also created by God. God has given you the ingredients, He has given you the intelligence, and you create. Eh? Wherefrom you get the intelligence? Eh? Who will answer this? Wherefrom the man gets his intelligence?
Pusta-krsna: From Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is the verse?
Pusta-krsna: Mattah smrtir jnanam...
Prabhupada: Ah. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah. So He is sitting in everyone's heart, and He's giving intelligence. And because the intelligence comes from God, therefore one is more intelligent, one is less intelligent. Because intelligence is not his. It is by the mercy of God one gets more intelligence, one gets less intelligence. So intelligence is supplied by God.
Yogesvara: Yet... But they claim to have found a way of making people biologically more intelligent now.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: The scientists claim that they have found a way of making babies more intelligent.
Prabhupada: That, they are dipping in so many things. Therefore we kick on their face, that say, promise, so many things, but cannot do anything. That is the defect of the so-called scientists. They are promising, "By scientific method, we shall make man deathless." Do they not say?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: But have they made him deathless? Simply a dream. That's all. Utopian dream.
Bhagavan: Even if they succeed in one area of doing something they promise...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: ...they create something that they didn't want to. They create some other problem that they didn't expect.
Prabhupada: What they have created? They are creating... But still dependent. Suppose they have created this horseless carriage. Now they are crying, "Where is the petrol? Where is the petrol?" So if God does not supply petrol, then all these horseless carriage will be pieces of tin. That's all.
Pusta-krsna: Maya-sukhaya.
Prabhupada: Can you create petrol?
Bhagavan: No.
Prabhupada: Then what is the value of your, this horseless carriage? You are dependent on God. What you have created? And what you can do? You can create war only to fight, man to man, and when you are in danger, then you go to church; "God save us. God save us." That you can create. And as far as peacefully living, accepting God as the Supreme, you can create war. That's all. That means... Like dogs, they create war. So this is a nice park. Why do you go so far? It is nice park. Now you create something to enjoy. Just like who created this building? Napoleon?
French Devotee (1): No.
Prabhupada: Then?
French Devotee (1): It's not by Napoleon. It's just...
Paramahamsa: What is it from?
French Devotee (2): It's a new building.
French Devotee (1): It's new. It's not hundred years old. It's called Marine Museum, Museum of the Marines.
Paramahamsa: It's a museum for exhibitions.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna. The man who created, he's kicked out. "Get out!" What did he do? "I have created this thing. I must enjoy." Why he's kicked out? Why?
Pusta-krsna: Because it is actually not his property.
Prabhupada: What is the answer? Why you are kicked out? Answer somebody.
Pusta-krsna: It's just like this body.
Bhagavan: He's not the real proprietor.
Prabhupada: Therefore... Yes. And not only kicked out. Who knows that he has been given a different body, maybe cats and dogs? So what is the value of this creation? Suppose I create this building, and on account of mentality, nature gives me next body a dog, and... Then what is my profit?
Yogesvara: Yeah, there was that man who came to see you a couple of days ago. His argument was that we can't really say for sure because it's not perceivable that we will take a dog's body. But at least this is something we can understand. Here's something, a nice accomplishment.
Prabhupada: But you understand, but you can understand also that you'll be kicked out. Don't you understand this?
Bhagavan: He doesn't know it.
Prabhupada: Eh? Therefore, he's a fool.
Bhagavan: There's a statement that says that...
Prabhupada: Just like suppose if I do something here in Paris, and if you say, "Sir, as soon as your visa is finished, you'll be kicked out," shall I be interested to create anything? That is intelligence, that "I will be kicked out after two months. Why shall I construct such a big scheme?" That is intelligence. So these rascals know that he'll be kicked out. Still, he works day and night for collecting bricks and stones and he becomes a big man. Mean a foolish rascal, he is considered a big man. Therefore sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19].
Paramahamsa: People argue that "God has given us our intelligence and our senses, and therefore we must enjoy."
Prabhupada: Yes. You enjoy. The dog is also enjoying. What you are enjoying more than the dog? Dog also eat. You also eat. Dog also sleep. You also sleep. Dogs also enjoy sex life. You also enjoy sex life. Dog is also afraid of his enemy. You are also afraid of your enemy. So what is the difference between you and dog? Why you claim that you have become very great? What is the difference between the dog's mentality and your mentality? God has given you intelligence to understand that you are nothing, God is everything. Just realize it. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. When you understand that "God is great. I am His servant," that is real reali... That is his intelligence. Otherwise, he's exactly like the dog. What is his intelligence?
Paramahamsa: But people today have reasoned God is dead with their intelligence.
Prabhupada: God is not dead. Your intelligence is dead. You have got a dead body, and you are proud of it. Eh? Decoration of the dead body. And you are decorating the dead body. The body's dead. That's a fact. Because as soon as you, soul, get out, it is dead body. But the body's already there. That means I am occupying a dead body. So long I am there, it is working only. But the body's dead. And you are decorating the dead body. You are so intelligent. You are interested with a dead body. And you have no intelligence to see that actually it is dead body. Because as soon as I will go away, it is dead body. The body is dead, but... Just like motor car. It is dead. If there is no petrol, it is dead. Similarly, your body is dead. Now try to understand. And if somebody decorates a dead body, is he very intelligent?
Bhagavan: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Your all acquisition is decoration of the dead body. That is a verse, apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. Loka-ranjanam. You can get some rascal and fool, some applause, "Oh, you are so nice. You are decorating dead body." But intelligent man will say "What a fool he is that he's decorating a dead body. That's all."
Yogesvara: It's like the story of the emperor's new clothes.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: There's a story about an emperor who commissioned a tailor to make some clothes for him. So the commissioner, the tailor, outsmarted him and told the king, "I have made you invisible clothes."
Prabhupada: Oh. (laughs)
Yogesvara: So the king said, "Oh, how wonderful. I'm the only person with such clothes." So he wore the invisible clothes and went out in public. And because he was the king, everyone was saying, "Oh, just see how beautiful clothes he has." But then one simple person said: "Why is the king walking naked?"
Prabhupada: So a simple person is more intelligent than the so-called sophisticated citizens. Decorating the dead body. I think in my Back to Godhead I wrote this article.
Bhagavan: One old Back to Godhead.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: One old Back to Godhead.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Decoration of the dead body."
Satsvarupa: They might ask why we decorate the Deity if we say that.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: Why do we decorate the, a stone Deity?
Prabhupada: Because it is not dead; it is living. They can put forward this argument. But that you do not know, that we are not decorating... We are, we are decorating the real body. Now what will be your question next?
Satsvarupa: You say it's a real body, but it appears to be stone.
Prabhupada: Why stone? Stone is also God's body. You don't know that? Do you know it or not?
Satsvarupa: Yes, in the Universal Form.
Prabhupada: No. Universal Form... Krsna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh [Bg. 7.4]. Bhumi means the earth. "That is My body."
Yogesvara: But there are no... They would say that there are no symptoms of life in the Deity.
Prabhupada: No, there is life, but you have no eyes to see. There is life. He's the supreme life. Only premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
Bhagavan: They can't even see that in an animal other than human there's soul. So how can they understand the Deity?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: They can't...
Prabhupada: so therefore they have to become our student and become our disciple to understand this science. Otherwise, why there is propaganda if we remain the same fool and rascal? That, that is Krsna consciousness, that the stone is also, that is virad-rupa. That is also Krsna.
Satsvarupa: But by that argument, then, this body is also Krsna, made of earth and water.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is Krsna's. But you are thinking you are. That is Krsna's. Therefore this body should be engaged for Krsna's service. That is Krsna consciousness. You, as soon as you accept this body is Krsna's, then you cannot employ it for other purposes. But that realization you have no. Why do you say it is Krsna's? You are thinking your body. Or you are body. Where is that consciousness?
Paramahamsa: The impersonalists argue when they read the verse, aham sarvasya bhutesu...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: They argue that Krsna's in the heart of every living entity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Therefore, every living entity is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Why? If I am in the room, I am room? Is that very good argument? Because I am in this room, I have become room? Is that argument very sound? Krsna is within this body. I am also within this body. But does it mean I am body, or Krsna is this body?
Devotees: No.
Prabhupada: Krsna is everything; again Krsna is... That is... What is the verse? maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina: "I am spread all over the universe in My impersonal feature." Jagad avyakta-murti..., mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bg. 9.4]. "Everything is in Me." Naham te..., "But I am not there." This is called simultaneously one and different. Acintya-bheda, that one has to understand. Where there is no Krsna consciousness, that is different from Krsna. Otherwise, everything is Krsna.
Bhagavan: The other religions do not give any...
Prabhupada: We are not talking of religions. We are talking of science.
Bhagavan: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So don't bring in any religion. A type of religion is made, "Believe something blindly." So that is not our concern. We are talking of the science. If I say that stone is also Krsna, is not that the science?
Bhagavan: It's the science of how God's energies are working.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like if I say heat is also fire. Is there any wrong?
Bhagavan: No.
Prabhupada: Is there any wrong?
Devotees: No.
Prabhupada: Heat is also fire. But at the same time, heat is not fire. What is the difficulty to understand? If I say heat is also fire, but it is not fire, where is the wrong?
Devotee: Heat comes from the fire.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore the fire quality is there. Heat is the quality of the fire. Just like I taste sugar. The sweetness is also sugar. And the form is also sugar.
Yogesvara: Well, they would say, "If stone is also Krsna, then why aren't we worshiping all stone?"
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Then why don't we worship all... Here is also some stone. Why don't we worship this?
Prabhupada: You worship. Because you are rascal, you worship.
Yogesvara: No, they...
Prabhupada: We, we worship Krsna in His form, but you are formless. You worship that stone. When we make the form of Krsna in stone, then we worship, not that any stone. Because Krsna is everything, that does not mean I have to worship the dog. That you worship. Because you are impersonalist, you worship dog. And you are doing that. In the morning, you take a dog and worship it. That is your business. Our business is to worship the form of Krsna. That is the, required. (pause)
Bhagavan: Could we say that anyone who is engaged in glorifying the body is actually engaged in idol worship?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Bhagavan: Anyone who's engaged in...
Prabhupada: That is already answered. Krsna says, "The body is Myself, but still, I am not there." So you cannot say by worshiping your body, you're worshiping Krsna. At that time, he's not there, although the body's also Krsna.
Paramahamsa: Sometimes, they argue, "How do you know this Deity is Krsna, and this one isn't? Because each Deity looks a little different to the material eyes."
Prabhupada: So we have to pluck out the material eyes. Then you'll see that it is all right. First of all, let me pluck out your material eyes. Then you'll see. Therefore it is said, premanjana-cchurita: "Eyes with love of Godhead." Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He saw Jagannatha Deity, Jagannatha Deity's not very beautiful. But immediately He saw Krsna and fainted. You have to make that eyes, then you'll see. So your present eye have to be plucked out. Then you'll see. Hare Krsna. Who is that statue? You are...?
Paramahamsa: It's a decoration.
Bhagavan: Where do we go?
Paramahamsa: There's a promenade around the fountain.
Prabhupada: So they have made this art. Suppose a real man and woman stands here. Will it be considered as art or criminal?
Paramahamsa: It would be considered criminal to them.
Prabhupada: Then? Their art is criminal.
Paramahamsa: But their argument is that when you glorify the body of man with...
Prabhupada: We don't glorify the body of... Who glorifies the body of man? We say it is dead body. Dead body means that does not need glorification. It is condemned. We say dead body, decoration of the dead body. We don't say art.
Paramahamsa: Catholic Renaissance Art, they glorified the dead body. Leonardo da Vinci, they glorified the body of man.
Prabhupada: That is called bhutejya. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita as worshiping the material elements. That's all. Here in western countries, that is the prominent thing, bhutejya. (pause) What is the other side? Lion? (pause, break) They cover with some cloth, some loose cloth. Is it not?
Bhagavan: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is French art, to make naked?
Devotee: Yes.
Bhagavan: Little more advanced.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. Therefore nowadays students are walking naked in America. Advanced, more advanced.
Bhagavan: There was one picture in the paper of one student running to receive his diploma without any clothes on. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Just see how much rascal they are becoming. (to devotee:) Take care of your son. It is... Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna...
Paramahamsa: If the material creation is created by Krsna, then man cannot destroy it although they are thinking that if they have a nuclear war, then they will destroy the earth.
Prabhupada: What they will destroy?
Paramahamsa: They're thinking the earth will just blow up with all the atomic bombs.
Prabhupada: That means this earth will be finished?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: They're expecting that?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: The earth will be finished?
Bhagavan: They think it's within their power.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: It's within their power.
Prabhupada: Within their power, so many things they're imagining. That is not possible. He can make a big hole only. That's all. Then where he'll stand? Suppose he finishes the earth. Then he is also finished. Then what is the credit? If you suicide, if you cut your own throat, is that very good credit? Then what is the credit? Suppose he has manufactured something that the earth will be finished. Then he'll be also finished. So what is God's loss? There are millions of earth-like planets floating in the sky. So one is lost. What is God's loss? It is your loss, that you are finished. Is that very good invention, to finish yourself? You are being finished. And now you have invented instrument to be finished. So you'll be finished. Wait for that. Why you are anxious to invent something to finish yourself? Is that very good intelligence? You'll be finished. That's a fact. So why you have invented machine to finish yourself quickly and you want to take credit? That means he proves he's a nonsense. He's a nonsense.
Paramahamsa: If God is all-good, why does He permit so many wars to go on?
Prabhupada: Because you want to be finished. You create war to be finished. God does not create. Just like you have created this weapon. In the name of finishing your enemy, you'll be finished, also. Is that very good credit? And God has created like that? You have created. Why don't you understand this?
Yogesvara: Well, why has God permitted me to do such a horrible thing?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is your little independence. God does not want to touch any... By your independence, go to hell or go to heaven. That's your choice. God says that "Don't use your independence by malpractice." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam... [Bg. 18.66]. God, that is God's statement. "You surrender to Me. I'll guide you." But if you misuse your independence, that's your business. You go to hell or heaven. That's your business. (pause)
Bhagavan: Where do we go now?
Paramahamsa: The car will be waiting for us down there.
Bhagavan: You're going to get it right now?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. They're all demigods, these pictures?
Pusta-krsna: Demi-animals.
Prabhupada: This is, I think, Adam and Eve, in the midst, middle? There must be some sense in the picture.
Pusta-krsna: Yes, there is.
Paramahamsa: People are believing that at the end of life, there's just death. So why worry about anything else? Therefore we should just enjoy right now.
Prabhupada: That is the difference between you and animal. The animal is in the slaughterhouse. He's not worried. But why you are worried. Suppose if you are brought in the slaughterhouse, and if you know that you'll be slaughtered, are you not worried? An animal is not worried. He's eating grass. That's all. So that is the difference between animal and man. If you are not worried, then you are animal. That's all.
Bhagavan: You once said that human life is pessimistic.
Prabhupada: Yes. Dissatisfaction. If you are not worried, that means you are animal. You are not human being.
Pusta-krsna: Is that like Prahlada Maharaja's prayer when he saw Lord Nrsimhadeva and he said, "I am not afraid of Your ferocious form, but I am afraid of this material world of samsara."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. He has given nice reference. A devotee, although sees God in His lion feature, and very ferocious, he knows He is God. "He's my Lord." But this so-called advancement of material civilization is the greatest enemy. That is not... Material civilization is very, very backward position. Maya-mohita. He'll be captivated by the so-called stones and bricks, and he'll forget God. That is the disease of the western world. They are very much fond of these stones and bricks, and therefore they have no knowledge about God. This electricity, the electrons, the radio, this, everything machine and stones. They have got, forgotten God. Jada-vidya jato mayara vaibhava. The more you materially advance, you forget God. So human life is meant for reviving our relationship with God, but if you forget God, then what kind of civilization it is? You are forgetting your real business.
Pusta-krsna: Some people use the argument, Srila Prabhupada, that by this advancement of technology, it will free us to think of philosophical.
Prabhupada: They will free us. They will free us. Oh, that will never come. That will never come. Therefore they are called bahir-artha-maninah. They are captivated by the external feature, and one who is leading them, he's also blind, and one who is following, he's also blind. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that material laws are so strong that they are not free to do anything.
Pusta-krsna: They are thinking that the technology will free them.
Prabhupada: Eh? No. No.
Pusta-krsna: The technology cannot...?
Prabhupada: It will bind them.
Bhagavan: It simply creates newer problems.
Prabhupada: That's all.
Paramahamsa: Some people glorify suffering in the material world because they say this increases their sense of appreciating the momentary happiness they have.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is good. (laughter) That is good, yes. "Blessings of adversity." That is blessing.
Yogesvara: Blessings of...?
Prabhupada: Adversity. Yes. Therefore, according to Vedic system, big, big king, they give up their kingdom and becomes a sannyasi, mendicant, voluntary acceptance of adversity. This is good. To live very comfortably and forget God is not good business.
Devotee: How can a devotee be free from being attracted to this worldliness?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: How can a devotee be free...?
Prabhupada: When he's attracted by Krsna, he'll forget. Just like we are more or less not attracted by these material features because we have little attraction for Krsna. That's all. So increase your attraction for Krsna; you'll forget all nonsense. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. The bhakti means more realization of God and forgetting this, all this nonsense. That is bhakti. That is the test of bhakti: how much you have become disinterested with this material advancement. That is bhakti, advancement of bhakti. And the... Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore says, niskincanasya. At last, when you'll feel that "Now I am dispossessed of all this material nonsense," then you make progress. And so long you'll feel "I have got this, I have got that, I am in possession of this, I...," that means your material disease is continuing. When you'll feel that "I do not have anything material," that is the beginning of Bhagavata-dharma.
Devotee: Prabhupada, what is the devotee's greatest enemy? A devotee's greatest enemy?
Prabhupada: He, he himself. Because he's a rascal, he's his greatest enemy. So just get out of this rascaldom, and you become your friend. Nobody is enemy. You are yourself your enemy. Nobody is enemy. (pause) Which one?
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. (end)
Satsvarupa: They say that this is, the body is made by God. Why cover it up? Nakedness is the work of God.
Prabhupada: No. God said that you should cover. (Some French boys in background are making mocking sounds, yelling, etc.) And they are becoming naked now. (yelling increases) What is that? They are laughing.
Satsvarupa: Crazy.
Bhagavan: Do we go left, Harinama?
Harinama: To the right. (more yelling, Prabhupada chuckles)
Bhagavan: When there is big kirtana party, then they stop laughing very quickly.
Prabhupada: What are these buildings?
Bhagavan: This is a big museum.
Prabhupada: Museum?
Bhagavan: Yes. [break]
Paramahamsa: Everything man creates...
Prabhupada: And why does he die?
Paramahamsa: We have got knowledge.
Prabhupada: Who has created death? Eh? Who has created death? Man creates everything, but who has created your death, Mr. Man? What is the answer?
Pusta-krsna: He has not created anything then.
Prabhupada: No no, no. I accept that man has created anything, everything. But who has created your death?
Pusta-krsna: God.
Prabhupada: Huh? Is there any answer?
Paramahamsa: Well, man has not created death.
Prabhupada: That means somebody has created. So how you can say that man has created everything? The fallacy, just see. How rascal they are. That I wanted to say.
Paramahamsa: You have quoted a great English poet who said...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: You have quoted a great English Poet who says that "Man has created the city..."
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Paramahamsa: "...and God has created the country."
Prabhupada: This is the statement of Mr. Cowper. Man has created nothing. Suppose this building, man has created. But wherefrom the ingredient comes. Has man created? This stone, man has created? Eh? What do you think? Is this stone, creation of man?
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: Then what... You have done the work of a laborer. That's all. You have taken ingredients from God and worked hard and transformed into a step. That's all. Your creation means just like carpenter creates a furniture. That's all. That is his creation. Then that is... The economic law says that man cannot create anything. He can simply transform. These trees, has man created these trees? Why do they claim man has created everything?
Pusta-krsna: But they will say that they made the garden.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Pusta-krsna: They will say that they made a very nice garden.
Prabhupada: That's all. That is the business of gardener, servant, not creator. That is the business of the servant. Just like I keep a gardener servant, and "Do like this. Do like that." That is not he is creator. It is my money which has created. Therefore it is Krsna's, everything. That is Krsna consciousness, that you have not created anything. You are servant. You are working, and Krsna is giving you your subsistence. That's all. So why don't you accept that you are servant of God instead of claiming that you have created. What you have created? This is our challenge. Am I right or wrong?
Paramahamsa: Right.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: Right.
Prabhupada: Yes. What you have created?
Paramahamsa: Life becomes so artificial. In the big city, people don't see that they depend on God.
Prabhupada: No, no. City or country, that I don't say that Mr. Cowper is perfect in his statement. City is also created by God. City is also created by God. God has given you the ingredients, He has given you the intelligence, and you create. Eh? Wherefrom you get the intelligence? Eh? Who will answer this? Wherefrom the man gets his intelligence?
Pusta-krsna: From Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is the verse?
Pusta-krsna: Mattah smrtir jnanam...
Prabhupada: Ah. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah. So He is sitting in everyone's heart, and He's giving intelligence. And because the intelligence comes from God, therefore one is more intelligent, one is less intelligent. Because intelligence is not his. It is by the mercy of God one gets more intelligence, one gets less intelligence. So intelligence is supplied by God.
Yogesvara: Yet... But they claim to have found a way of making people biologically more intelligent now.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: The scientists claim that they have found a way of making babies more intelligent.
Prabhupada: That, they are dipping in so many things. Therefore we kick on their face, that say, promise, so many things, but cannot do anything. That is the defect of the so-called scientists. They are promising, "By scientific method, we shall make man deathless." Do they not say?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: But have they made him deathless? Simply a dream. That's all. Utopian dream.
Bhagavan: Even if they succeed in one area of doing something they promise...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: ...they create something that they didn't want to. They create some other problem that they didn't expect.
Prabhupada: What they have created? They are creating... But still dependent. Suppose they have created this horseless carriage. Now they are crying, "Where is the petrol? Where is the petrol?" So if God does not supply petrol, then all these horseless carriage will be pieces of tin. That's all.
Pusta-krsna: Maya-sukhaya.
Prabhupada: Can you create petrol?
Bhagavan: No.
Prabhupada: Then what is the value of your, this horseless carriage? You are dependent on God. What you have created? And what you can do? You can create war only to fight, man to man, and when you are in danger, then you go to church; "God save us. God save us." That you can create. And as far as peacefully living, accepting God as the Supreme, you can create war. That's all. That means... Like dogs, they create war. So this is a nice park. Why do you go so far? It is nice park. Now you create something to enjoy. Just like who created this building? Napoleon?
French Devotee (1): No.
Prabhupada: Then?
French Devotee (1): It's not by Napoleon. It's just...
Paramahamsa: What is it from?
French Devotee (2): It's a new building.
French Devotee (1): It's new. It's not hundred years old. It's called Marine Museum, Museum of the Marines.
Paramahamsa: It's a museum for exhibitions.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna. The man who created, he's kicked out. "Get out!" What did he do? "I have created this thing. I must enjoy." Why he's kicked out? Why?
Pusta-krsna: Because it is actually not his property.
Prabhupada: What is the answer? Why you are kicked out? Answer somebody.
Pusta-krsna: It's just like this body.
Bhagavan: He's not the real proprietor.
Prabhupada: Therefore... Yes. And not only kicked out. Who knows that he has been given a different body, maybe cats and dogs? So what is the value of this creation? Suppose I create this building, and on account of mentality, nature gives me next body a dog, and... Then what is my profit?
Yogesvara: Yeah, there was that man who came to see you a couple of days ago. His argument was that we can't really say for sure because it's not perceivable that we will take a dog's body. But at least this is something we can understand. Here's something, a nice accomplishment.
Prabhupada: But you understand, but you can understand also that you'll be kicked out. Don't you understand this?
Bhagavan: He doesn't know it.
Prabhupada: Eh? Therefore, he's a fool.
Bhagavan: There's a statement that says that...
Prabhupada: Just like suppose if I do something here in Paris, and if you say, "Sir, as soon as your visa is finished, you'll be kicked out," shall I be interested to create anything? That is intelligence, that "I will be kicked out after two months. Why shall I construct such a big scheme?" That is intelligence. So these rascals know that he'll be kicked out. Still, he works day and night for collecting bricks and stones and he becomes a big man. Mean a foolish rascal, he is considered a big man. Therefore sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19].
Paramahamsa: People argue that "God has given us our intelligence and our senses, and therefore we must enjoy."
Prabhupada: Yes. You enjoy. The dog is also enjoying. What you are enjoying more than the dog? Dog also eat. You also eat. Dog also sleep. You also sleep. Dogs also enjoy sex life. You also enjoy sex life. Dog is also afraid of his enemy. You are also afraid of your enemy. So what is the difference between you and dog? Why you claim that you have become very great? What is the difference between the dog's mentality and your mentality? God has given you intelligence to understand that you are nothing, God is everything. Just realize it. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. When you understand that "God is great. I am His servant," that is real reali... That is his intelligence. Otherwise, he's exactly like the dog. What is his intelligence?
Paramahamsa: But people today have reasoned God is dead with their intelligence.
Prabhupada: God is not dead. Your intelligence is dead. You have got a dead body, and you are proud of it. Eh? Decoration of the dead body. And you are decorating the dead body. The body's dead. That's a fact. Because as soon as you, soul, get out, it is dead body. But the body's already there. That means I am occupying a dead body. So long I am there, it is working only. But the body's dead. And you are decorating the dead body. You are so intelligent. You are interested with a dead body. And you have no intelligence to see that actually it is dead body. Because as soon as I will go away, it is dead body. The body is dead, but... Just like motor car. It is dead. If there is no petrol, it is dead. Similarly, your body is dead. Now try to understand. And if somebody decorates a dead body, is he very intelligent?
Bhagavan: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Your all acquisition is decoration of the dead body. That is a verse, apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. Loka-ranjanam. You can get some rascal and fool, some applause, "Oh, you are so nice. You are decorating dead body." But intelligent man will say "What a fool he is that he's decorating a dead body. That's all."
Yogesvara: It's like the story of the emperor's new clothes.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: There's a story about an emperor who commissioned a tailor to make some clothes for him. So the commissioner, the tailor, outsmarted him and told the king, "I have made you invisible clothes."
Prabhupada: Oh. (laughs)
Yogesvara: So the king said, "Oh, how wonderful. I'm the only person with such clothes." So he wore the invisible clothes and went out in public. And because he was the king, everyone was saying, "Oh, just see how beautiful clothes he has." But then one simple person said: "Why is the king walking naked?"
Prabhupada: So a simple person is more intelligent than the so-called sophisticated citizens. Decorating the dead body. I think in my Back to Godhead I wrote this article.
Bhagavan: One old Back to Godhead.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: One old Back to Godhead.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Decoration of the dead body."
Satsvarupa: They might ask why we decorate the Deity if we say that.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: Why do we decorate the, a stone Deity?
Prabhupada: Because it is not dead; it is living. They can put forward this argument. But that you do not know, that we are not decorating... We are, we are decorating the real body. Now what will be your question next?
Satsvarupa: You say it's a real body, but it appears to be stone.
Prabhupada: Why stone? Stone is also God's body. You don't know that? Do you know it or not?
Satsvarupa: Yes, in the Universal Form.
Prabhupada: No. Universal Form... Krsna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh [Bg. 7.4]. Bhumi means the earth. "That is My body."
Yogesvara: But there are no... They would say that there are no symptoms of life in the Deity.
Prabhupada: No, there is life, but you have no eyes to see. There is life. He's the supreme life. Only premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
Bhagavan: They can't even see that in an animal other than human there's soul. So how can they understand the Deity?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: They can't...
Prabhupada: so therefore they have to become our student and become our disciple to understand this science. Otherwise, why there is propaganda if we remain the same fool and rascal? That, that is Krsna consciousness, that the stone is also, that is virad-rupa. That is also Krsna.
Satsvarupa: But by that argument, then, this body is also Krsna, made of earth and water.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is Krsna's. But you are thinking you are. That is Krsna's. Therefore this body should be engaged for Krsna's service. That is Krsna consciousness. You, as soon as you accept this body is Krsna's, then you cannot employ it for other purposes. But that realization you have no. Why do you say it is Krsna's? You are thinking your body. Or you are body. Where is that consciousness?
Paramahamsa: The impersonalists argue when they read the verse, aham sarvasya bhutesu...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: They argue that Krsna's in the heart of every living entity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Therefore, every living entity is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Why? If I am in the room, I am room? Is that very good argument? Because I am in this room, I have become room? Is that argument very sound? Krsna is within this body. I am also within this body. But does it mean I am body, or Krsna is this body?
Devotees: No.
Prabhupada: Krsna is everything; again Krsna is... That is... What is the verse? maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina: "I am spread all over the universe in My impersonal feature." Jagad avyakta-murti..., mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bg. 9.4]. "Everything is in Me." Naham te..., "But I am not there." This is called simultaneously one and different. Acintya-bheda, that one has to understand. Where there is no Krsna consciousness, that is different from Krsna. Otherwise, everything is Krsna.
Bhagavan: The other religions do not give any...
Prabhupada: We are not talking of religions. We are talking of science.
Bhagavan: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So don't bring in any religion. A type of religion is made, "Believe something blindly." So that is not our concern. We are talking of the science. If I say that stone is also Krsna, is not that the science?
Bhagavan: It's the science of how God's energies are working.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like if I say heat is also fire. Is there any wrong?
Bhagavan: No.
Prabhupada: Is there any wrong?
Devotees: No.
Prabhupada: Heat is also fire. But at the same time, heat is not fire. What is the difficulty to understand? If I say heat is also fire, but it is not fire, where is the wrong?
Devotee: Heat comes from the fire.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore the fire quality is there. Heat is the quality of the fire. Just like I taste sugar. The sweetness is also sugar. And the form is also sugar.
Yogesvara: Well, they would say, "If stone is also Krsna, then why aren't we worshiping all stone?"
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Then why don't we worship all... Here is also some stone. Why don't we worship this?
Prabhupada: You worship. Because you are rascal, you worship.
Yogesvara: No, they...
Prabhupada: We, we worship Krsna in His form, but you are formless. You worship that stone. When we make the form of Krsna in stone, then we worship, not that any stone. Because Krsna is everything, that does not mean I have to worship the dog. That you worship. Because you are impersonalist, you worship dog. And you are doing that. In the morning, you take a dog and worship it. That is your business. Our business is to worship the form of Krsna. That is the, required. (pause)
Bhagavan: Could we say that anyone who is engaged in glorifying the body is actually engaged in idol worship?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Bhagavan: Anyone who's engaged in...
Prabhupada: That is already answered. Krsna says, "The body is Myself, but still, I am not there." So you cannot say by worshiping your body, you're worshiping Krsna. At that time, he's not there, although the body's also Krsna.
Paramahamsa: Sometimes, they argue, "How do you know this Deity is Krsna, and this one isn't? Because each Deity looks a little different to the material eyes."
Prabhupada: So we have to pluck out the material eyes. Then you'll see that it is all right. First of all, let me pluck out your material eyes. Then you'll see. Therefore it is said, premanjana-cchurita: "Eyes with love of Godhead." Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He saw Jagannatha Deity, Jagannatha Deity's not very beautiful. But immediately He saw Krsna and fainted. You have to make that eyes, then you'll see. So your present eye have to be plucked out. Then you'll see. Hare Krsna. Who is that statue? You are...?
Paramahamsa: It's a decoration.
Bhagavan: Where do we go?
Paramahamsa: There's a promenade around the fountain.
Prabhupada: So they have made this art. Suppose a real man and woman stands here. Will it be considered as art or criminal?
Paramahamsa: It would be considered criminal to them.
Prabhupada: Then? Their art is criminal.
Paramahamsa: But their argument is that when you glorify the body of man with...
Prabhupada: We don't glorify the body of... Who glorifies the body of man? We say it is dead body. Dead body means that does not need glorification. It is condemned. We say dead body, decoration of the dead body. We don't say art.
Paramahamsa: Catholic Renaissance Art, they glorified the dead body. Leonardo da Vinci, they glorified the body of man.
Prabhupada: That is called bhutejya. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita as worshiping the material elements. That's all. Here in western countries, that is the prominent thing, bhutejya. (pause) What is the other side? Lion? (pause, break) They cover with some cloth, some loose cloth. Is it not?
Bhagavan: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is French art, to make naked?
Devotee: Yes.
Bhagavan: Little more advanced.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. Therefore nowadays students are walking naked in America. Advanced, more advanced.
Bhagavan: There was one picture in the paper of one student running to receive his diploma without any clothes on. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Just see how much rascal they are becoming. (to devotee:) Take care of your son. It is... Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna...
Paramahamsa: If the material creation is created by Krsna, then man cannot destroy it although they are thinking that if they have a nuclear war, then they will destroy the earth.
Prabhupada: What they will destroy?
Paramahamsa: They're thinking the earth will just blow up with all the atomic bombs.
Prabhupada: That means this earth will be finished?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: They're expecting that?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: The earth will be finished?
Bhagavan: They think it's within their power.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: It's within their power.
Prabhupada: Within their power, so many things they're imagining. That is not possible. He can make a big hole only. That's all. Then where he'll stand? Suppose he finishes the earth. Then he is also finished. Then what is the credit? If you suicide, if you cut your own throat, is that very good credit? Then what is the credit? Suppose he has manufactured something that the earth will be finished. Then he'll be also finished. So what is God's loss? There are millions of earth-like planets floating in the sky. So one is lost. What is God's loss? It is your loss, that you are finished. Is that very good invention, to finish yourself? You are being finished. And now you have invented instrument to be finished. So you'll be finished. Wait for that. Why you are anxious to invent something to finish yourself? Is that very good intelligence? You'll be finished. That's a fact. So why you have invented machine to finish yourself quickly and you want to take credit? That means he proves he's a nonsense. He's a nonsense.
Paramahamsa: If God is all-good, why does He permit so many wars to go on?
Prabhupada: Because you want to be finished. You create war to be finished. God does not create. Just like you have created this weapon. In the name of finishing your enemy, you'll be finished, also. Is that very good credit? And God has created like that? You have created. Why don't you understand this?
Yogesvara: Well, why has God permitted me to do such a horrible thing?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is your little independence. God does not want to touch any... By your independence, go to hell or go to heaven. That's your choice. God says that "Don't use your independence by malpractice." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam... [Bg. 18.66]. God, that is God's statement. "You surrender to Me. I'll guide you." But if you misuse your independence, that's your business. You go to hell or heaven. That's your business. (pause)
Bhagavan: Where do we go now?
Paramahamsa: The car will be waiting for us down there.
Bhagavan: You're going to get it right now?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. They're all demigods, these pictures?
Pusta-krsna: Demi-animals.
Prabhupada: This is, I think, Adam and Eve, in the midst, middle? There must be some sense in the picture.
Pusta-krsna: Yes, there is.
Paramahamsa: People are believing that at the end of life, there's just death. So why worry about anything else? Therefore we should just enjoy right now.
Prabhupada: That is the difference between you and animal. The animal is in the slaughterhouse. He's not worried. But why you are worried. Suppose if you are brought in the slaughterhouse, and if you know that you'll be slaughtered, are you not worried? An animal is not worried. He's eating grass. That's all. So that is the difference between animal and man. If you are not worried, then you are animal. That's all.
Bhagavan: You once said that human life is pessimistic.
Prabhupada: Yes. Dissatisfaction. If you are not worried, that means you are animal. You are not human being.
Pusta-krsna: Is that like Prahlada Maharaja's prayer when he saw Lord Nrsimhadeva and he said, "I am not afraid of Your ferocious form, but I am afraid of this material world of samsara."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. He has given nice reference. A devotee, although sees God in His lion feature, and very ferocious, he knows He is God. "He's my Lord." But this so-called advancement of material civilization is the greatest enemy. That is not... Material civilization is very, very backward position. Maya-mohita. He'll be captivated by the so-called stones and bricks, and he'll forget God. That is the disease of the western world. They are very much fond of these stones and bricks, and therefore they have no knowledge about God. This electricity, the electrons, the radio, this, everything machine and stones. They have got, forgotten God. Jada-vidya jato mayara vaibhava. The more you materially advance, you forget God. So human life is meant for reviving our relationship with God, but if you forget God, then what kind of civilization it is? You are forgetting your real business.
Pusta-krsna: Some people use the argument, Srila Prabhupada, that by this advancement of technology, it will free us to think of philosophical.
Prabhupada: They will free us. They will free us. Oh, that will never come. That will never come. Therefore they are called bahir-artha-maninah. They are captivated by the external feature, and one who is leading them, he's also blind, and one who is following, he's also blind. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that material laws are so strong that they are not free to do anything.
Pusta-krsna: They are thinking that the technology will free them.
Prabhupada: Eh? No. No.
Pusta-krsna: The technology cannot...?
Prabhupada: It will bind them.
Bhagavan: It simply creates newer problems.
Prabhupada: That's all.
Paramahamsa: Some people glorify suffering in the material world because they say this increases their sense of appreciating the momentary happiness they have.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is good. (laughter) That is good, yes. "Blessings of adversity." That is blessing.
Yogesvara: Blessings of...?
Prabhupada: Adversity. Yes. Therefore, according to Vedic system, big, big king, they give up their kingdom and becomes a sannyasi, mendicant, voluntary acceptance of adversity. This is good. To live very comfortably and forget God is not good business.
Devotee: How can a devotee be free from being attracted to this worldliness?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: How can a devotee be free...?
Prabhupada: When he's attracted by Krsna, he'll forget. Just like we are more or less not attracted by these material features because we have little attraction for Krsna. That's all. So increase your attraction for Krsna; you'll forget all nonsense. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. The bhakti means more realization of God and forgetting this, all this nonsense. That is bhakti. That is the test of bhakti: how much you have become disinterested with this material advancement. That is bhakti, advancement of bhakti. And the... Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore says, niskincanasya. At last, when you'll feel that "Now I am dispossessed of all this material nonsense," then you make progress. And so long you'll feel "I have got this, I have got that, I am in possession of this, I...," that means your material disease is continuing. When you'll feel that "I do not have anything material," that is the beginning of Bhagavata-dharma.
Devotee: Prabhupada, what is the devotee's greatest enemy? A devotee's greatest enemy?
Prabhupada: He, he himself. Because he's a rascal, he's his greatest enemy. So just get out of this rascaldom, and you become your friend. Nobody is enemy. You are yourself your enemy. Nobody is enemy. (pause) Which one?
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- June 12, 1974, Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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