Germany, June 21, 1974
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Prabhupada: So if we are
chanting the name of God, what is your objection to accept the name of the
Lord?Professor Durckheim: What's the objection to?
Prabhupada: Objection to accept the name which we are chanting?
Professor Durckheim: I don't know.
Prabhupada: Was not that? What did he say?
Hamsaduta: Yes, that God had no name.
Prabhupada: God had no name, then Jesus Christ.
Hamsaduta: His point was actually that God had no name, otherwise He would be a person. But I think you missed that point.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, I stressed that if God has no name, then why Christ said that "Hallowed be Thy name"?
Professor Durckheim: Well, he explained from his theologian point of view, when Moses was asking God, "Who is Thy name?" God didn't give a name but said only, "I am who I am." And then He explained if in the prayer one says, "Blessed be thy name," they use this in order to avoid a direct name. So just only say, "The name." But I don't understand the whole thing because the word God already is... What do you want more? And I believe that in the Christian religion, everybody just says God. They think the word God is the name and nothing more needed.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is not very good sense, that president, president of America. People say " 'President' is sufficient." Then why "Mr. Nixon"? They are all fools? No, they say, "Mr. Nixon," sometimes they say, and sometimes, "the President." Rather, they say more "Mr. Nixon" than "the President." Why?
Professor Durckheim: Sure. But I only can say...
Prabhupada: So this argument, this argument is not very sensible argument.
Professor Durckheim: No, but that is the answer they would give. I don't believe the special name of God is for me the name, the word God. We are praying to God.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Then name... When Christ says, "Hallowed by Thy name," there is name. The name is Krsna, already there. Therefore he did not require to say again. But the name is there, Krsna is there, Visnu is there, Madhava is there, Govinda is there. There are thousands and thousands of names. So you pick up any one of them. And chant it. Why do you say there is no name? Then we are chanting the name. Then what we are? We are all rascals and fools? If he says, "No, there is no name," Christ confirms there is name, and we are chanting the name. How you can say there is no name?
Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite. Well, I understand exactly what you mean very well.
Prabhupada: There is name. It is confirmed. "Hallowed be Thy name." Now, we are chanting the name. What is your objection? You chant this name.
Professor Durckheim: I have no objection.
Prabhupada: No, you... I mean to say anyone.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite, quite.
Prabhupada: And "Hallowed be Thy..." Those who are chanting the name of God, Krsna, just see the result, whether they are improving or not than those who have no name. Come to the practical field. These boys and girls, before my coming in the western countries, they were all so many, I do not wish to... (laughing) Now by simply chanting the name, how much improvement they have done? So why there should be any objection to chant this name? And what is the loss there? Suppose anyone chants Hare Krsna mantra. There is no loss, but the gain is practical. Why do they not, these theosophists, do not agree to chant this name, simple thing?
Professor Durckheim: I think they don't know it, and then...
Prabhupada: That is the fact. They don't know it. And still, they are theologicians. They are philosophers.
Professor Durckheim: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: They do not know anything; still, they are teachers. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that one is not qualified man, and he is teacher. He has become a teacher.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, the theology is very much a collection of hardened, petrified interpretation of original experiences. And just because they are petrified very often, today theology has nothing to say to our generation.
Prabhupada: No. I have got many disciples. They were formerly theologicians. What is the name, that boy in America?
Satsvarupa: In Arabia?
Prabhupada: No, no. There was a boy. He was theologician. Prajapati, Prajapati. Do you remember? He was theologician. Our only request is that Bible confirms there is name. Now, even though they do not know the name, here is the name, Krsna. So why people will not take this name to chant? And if by chanting the name there is practical benefit, why they should object? Why they should be so sectarian? Theologician, at least, must not be sectarian. So let the whole world chant Hare Krsna mantra. So there is no loss. If there is any gain, why not take it? And because you are writing books, therefore I am requesting you to write this, that some of the Christians, they say there is no name, but Christ says there is name, and here is the name. They are chanting, and they are getting profit. We don't want anything. We don't want any price, that I have researched the name.
Professor Durckheim: They chant the name...
Prabhupada: Krsna, Hare Krsna.
Professor Durckheim: ...in orthodox church and also very... They chant the name of Jesus. Again and again, the whole day, they say the word "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, have pity of us. Jesus, Jesus have pity of us."
Prabhupada: But Jesus said, "God, hallowed by Thy name." Jesus never said that "You chant my name." No gentleman says like that. He said, "Hallowed be God. Hallowed by Thy name." And why they are sectarian? If there is name already, why do they not chant it? And what is the harm?
Hamsaduta: There are so many places. At one point he says, "I have kept them in your name. Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain." So many references to the name.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: The Jews have the Jehova, Jehova name, Jehova, but they don't chant.
Prabhupada: No? They are not following.
Professor Durckheim: Jehova. How beautiful it is here.
Prabhupada: Yes, very nice. (pause) Bhagavata, Srimad-Bhagavatam is presented in such a nice way that go on reading, reading there are eighteen thousand verses, and in each verse you will find new knowledge about God, Srimad-Bhagavatam. And if you study one verse, it will take at least one month.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, I suppose so.
Prabhupada: Yes. So eighteen thousand months you have to live.
Professor Durckheim: Very good.
Prabhupada: How many years, eighteen thousand months?
Hamsaduta: About 1,300.
Prabhupada: Eighteen thousand months, divide by twelve.
Professor Durckheim: Twelve thousand months would be thousand years.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. So...
Hamsaduta: 1,500 years.
Prabhupada: What these theologicians think about God? It is already 1,500 months' substance to read. What they will discover? Teeny discovery? We have already stock for 1,500 years' understanding. So what we have to understand from them? [break] ...anadir ananta-rupam. This is only for Krsna. But Krsna has got expansions -- unlimited. Advaita, acyuta, ananta. Ananta means unlimited. God, His one feature is Krsna, and He has unlimited features. If a gentleman simply reads the Srimad-Bhagavatam quietly at home, he will be fully conversant, fully aware of what is God. Just like a scholar. He is not limited in one university or in one book. He reads various books to understand the subject matter of his research. Similarly, those who are actually serious about understanding God, they should not stick only to a particular scripture. They should read all others where the information of God is there. Just like we sometimes quote from Bible, but the Christians, they cannot quote from Bhagavad-gita or Bhagavata. They cannot do that. But they do not read. Even they do not read fully their Bible.
Professor Durckheim: No, they don't.
Prabhupada: Just see. And still, they want to be masters of understanding God. I have seen many scholars in the western countries. They are well known as Sanskrit scholar. But they cannot quote even a verse.
Professor Durckheim: I see. Well, it's a pity. Sanskrit scholars...
Prabhupada: Yes. But I understand in Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.
Professor Durckheim: It seems so.
Prabhupada: In Germany there are many learned Sanskrit scholars. But till now I have not met any one of them.
Professor Durckheim: Well, to be a scholar in the usual sense of the word and to really go into the meaning, they are two different things. There are sometimes people who seeks to be a scholar, but in their actual knowledge, they have no insight. And that's also the case in the, with the theologian and the Bible. They know the Bible sometimes...
Prabhupada: No, that is required.
Professor Durckheim: ...but they don't enter into the meaning. They interpret it just along their small brains because they haven't got the experience.
Hamsaduta: Do you want to go this way around, Prabhupada, or just walk straight on?
Prabhupada: No, straight. Car is there?
Hamsaduta: Yeah, car is there, following us. [break]
Prabhupada: Artificially they live in the city.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, there are now millions and millions of children who never have seen a cow, never seen a horse.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: They go and stand at the zoo to see an animal. Yes, It's true. And I have just now in my center the visit of six Americans from Chicago who have their psychological center, and they wanted to know what we do, and they told me. They have a special little area where children are taken to see one cow, you see, or one horse just to know what it is because they never see it, never see an animal.
Prabhupada: Most unnatural life. City life, most unnatural.
Professor Durckheim: Oh, there are many children, they have never seen a tree. [break] ...sleeping only very few hours.
Prabhupada: Not very few hours. Say, four, five hours altogether. Altogether. Maximum five, minimum four.
Professor Durckheim: All the night or do you at the day sometimes?
Prabhupada: No. At night I get up at one, at half past one, sometimes half past twelve. But I take a little rest, one or two hour in the daytime. So two hours at night, two hours at day, or three hours at night, two hours in day. In this way, altogether five hours, not more than that. Our predecessor gurus, Gosvamis, they were taking rest not more than two hours or 2-1/2 hours. So we should come to that standard, yes. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. About them this description is: they reduced their sleeping, nidra. Nidra means sleeping. And ahara. Ahara means eating and collection. Collection is also ahara. Yes. So they were mendicant. They had no collection. And they had no preaching mission. They were simply writing books. Nana-sastra-vicaranaika-
Professor Durckheim: The Radha-Krsna center in Geneva, for instance, has there any connection with you, the Swami Nityabowa-badananda? (?)
Hamsaduta: No.
Professor Durckheim: No, no connection.
Prabhupada: They are all impersonalists. The whole world is impersonalist. Perhaps we are only the personalists.
Professor Durckheim: You know that the Christian theologian, they think the main difference between them and Eastern religions altogether is that the Christian are personalists and Eastern tradition is not personalist. This is the whole...
Prabhupada: Misconception, yes. The majority of Indian population, they are personalists. Yes, majority. Either they worship God or demigod, but they are personalists. Recently the Mayavadi philosophers, they have poisoned, the impersonalism, calamity. God is person. It is... In the Veda it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). There are millions of persons. We are all persons. And God is the chief person. Just like in modern democracy, there is no monarch. But ultimately they have to select one president. Without person, there cannot be government. Why they do not remain without a president? Let it... Government, everything is government, impersonal. Why they select a president?
Professor Durckheim: Yes. One who takes lead, yes, sure.
Prabhupada: Yes. So if for a small government, three bighas of land, you require a personal governor, and such a huge government, millions and millions of universes, how the governor, the Supreme Person, supreme executive, shall not be a person? What is the reason? Actually, at the present moment, people have given up to understand the science of God. That is the defect. They are thinking everything here. Here is advertisement, "Everything here. Come on. Here is a bottle. Here is the pack (peg?). Come on." Everything here. That is the defect. And we are preaching, "Everything is not there." "Everything is lost there," we are preaching. No intoxication. And the material world is preaching, "Everything is there." This is the difference. We are preaching, "Everything is here in Krsna, in God." We have... There is a tendency here. Just see. They want to worship Deity. Even on the street side there is such thing. The tendency is to worship Deity, person. I have seen in Rome. In many small lanes, they have got this, yes. Personal worship. So the village men, they are all sleeping now?
Professor Durckheim: Yes. Most of them are sleeping.
Prabhupada: They are enjoying. Sleeping is enjoying.
Professor Durckheim: This is a very ugly village here.
Prabhupada: Why? It is very clean.
Professor Durckheim: Nothing but stone. No gardens, no flowers. Usually it is different.
Prabhupada: In other words, you mean to say that "the village for the stone-hearted."
Professor Durckheim: Yes.
Hamsaduta: The village is for the stone-hearted. Nothing but stones.
Professor Durckheim: Once when I was in Paris and walking the streets and nothing but stone and stone and iron and nothing alive, I suddenly heard a voice, coming from beneath, as if there were a big, big one. I heard the voice, if you like, of God and saying, "Well, isn't there not a little spot there where I could manifest myself?" The sadness of God. I heard the voice, "This is the sadness of God." Was very impressive to me. Really a real voice in myself. Because a town like this has no place, no channel, for His voice to come through.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: That was the feeling at that moment. [break] ...smell of the baked bread.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Professor Durckheim: Is it very agreeable?
Prabhupada: What can be done? We have to be accustomed because we have to go all the western countries, the boiling meat. So let us go out now.
Hamsaduta: You want to go in here, the car. (end)
Prabhupada: Objection to accept the name which we are chanting?
Professor Durckheim: I don't know.
Prabhupada: Was not that? What did he say?
Hamsaduta: Yes, that God had no name.
Prabhupada: God had no name, then Jesus Christ.
Hamsaduta: His point was actually that God had no name, otherwise He would be a person. But I think you missed that point.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, I stressed that if God has no name, then why Christ said that "Hallowed be Thy name"?
Professor Durckheim: Well, he explained from his theologian point of view, when Moses was asking God, "Who is Thy name?" God didn't give a name but said only, "I am who I am." And then He explained if in the prayer one says, "Blessed be thy name," they use this in order to avoid a direct name. So just only say, "The name." But I don't understand the whole thing because the word God already is... What do you want more? And I believe that in the Christian religion, everybody just says God. They think the word God is the name and nothing more needed.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is not very good sense, that president, president of America. People say " 'President' is sufficient." Then why "Mr. Nixon"? They are all fools? No, they say, "Mr. Nixon," sometimes they say, and sometimes, "the President." Rather, they say more "Mr. Nixon" than "the President." Why?
Professor Durckheim: Sure. But I only can say...
Prabhupada: So this argument, this argument is not very sensible argument.
Professor Durckheim: No, but that is the answer they would give. I don't believe the special name of God is for me the name, the word God. We are praying to God.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Then name... When Christ says, "Hallowed by Thy name," there is name. The name is Krsna, already there. Therefore he did not require to say again. But the name is there, Krsna is there, Visnu is there, Madhava is there, Govinda is there. There are thousands and thousands of names. So you pick up any one of them. And chant it. Why do you say there is no name? Then we are chanting the name. Then what we are? We are all rascals and fools? If he says, "No, there is no name," Christ confirms there is name, and we are chanting the name. How you can say there is no name?
Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite. Well, I understand exactly what you mean very well.
Prabhupada: There is name. It is confirmed. "Hallowed be Thy name." Now, we are chanting the name. What is your objection? You chant this name.
Professor Durckheim: I have no objection.
Prabhupada: No, you... I mean to say anyone.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite, quite.
Prabhupada: And "Hallowed be Thy..." Those who are chanting the name of God, Krsna, just see the result, whether they are improving or not than those who have no name. Come to the practical field. These boys and girls, before my coming in the western countries, they were all so many, I do not wish to... (laughing) Now by simply chanting the name, how much improvement they have done? So why there should be any objection to chant this name? And what is the loss there? Suppose anyone chants Hare Krsna mantra. There is no loss, but the gain is practical. Why do they not, these theosophists, do not agree to chant this name, simple thing?
Professor Durckheim: I think they don't know it, and then...
Prabhupada: That is the fact. They don't know it. And still, they are theologicians. They are philosophers.
Professor Durckheim: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: They do not know anything; still, they are teachers. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that one is not qualified man, and he is teacher. He has become a teacher.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, the theology is very much a collection of hardened, petrified interpretation of original experiences. And just because they are petrified very often, today theology has nothing to say to our generation.
Prabhupada: No. I have got many disciples. They were formerly theologicians. What is the name, that boy in America?
Satsvarupa: In Arabia?
Prabhupada: No, no. There was a boy. He was theologician. Prajapati, Prajapati. Do you remember? He was theologician. Our only request is that Bible confirms there is name. Now, even though they do not know the name, here is the name, Krsna. So why people will not take this name to chant? And if by chanting the name there is practical benefit, why they should object? Why they should be so sectarian? Theologician, at least, must not be sectarian. So let the whole world chant Hare Krsna mantra. So there is no loss. If there is any gain, why not take it? And because you are writing books, therefore I am requesting you to write this, that some of the Christians, they say there is no name, but Christ says there is name, and here is the name. They are chanting, and they are getting profit. We don't want anything. We don't want any price, that I have researched the name.
Professor Durckheim: They chant the name...
Prabhupada: Krsna, Hare Krsna.
Professor Durckheim: ...in orthodox church and also very... They chant the name of Jesus. Again and again, the whole day, they say the word "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, have pity of us. Jesus, Jesus have pity of us."
Prabhupada: But Jesus said, "God, hallowed by Thy name." Jesus never said that "You chant my name." No gentleman says like that. He said, "Hallowed be God. Hallowed by Thy name." And why they are sectarian? If there is name already, why do they not chant it? And what is the harm?
Hamsaduta: There are so many places. At one point he says, "I have kept them in your name. Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain." So many references to the name.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: The Jews have the Jehova, Jehova name, Jehova, but they don't chant.
Prabhupada: No? They are not following.
Professor Durckheim: Jehova. How beautiful it is here.
Prabhupada: Yes, very nice. (pause) Bhagavata, Srimad-Bhagavatam is presented in such a nice way that go on reading, reading there are eighteen thousand verses, and in each verse you will find new knowledge about God, Srimad-Bhagavatam. And if you study one verse, it will take at least one month.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, I suppose so.
Prabhupada: Yes. So eighteen thousand months you have to live.
Professor Durckheim: Very good.
Prabhupada: How many years, eighteen thousand months?
Hamsaduta: About 1,300.
Prabhupada: Eighteen thousand months, divide by twelve.
Professor Durckheim: Twelve thousand months would be thousand years.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. So...
Hamsaduta: 1,500 years.
Prabhupada: What these theologicians think about God? It is already 1,500 months' substance to read. What they will discover? Teeny discovery? We have already stock for 1,500 years' understanding. So what we have to understand from them? [break] ...anadir ananta-rupam. This is only for Krsna. But Krsna has got expansions -- unlimited. Advaita, acyuta, ananta. Ananta means unlimited. God, His one feature is Krsna, and He has unlimited features. If a gentleman simply reads the Srimad-Bhagavatam quietly at home, he will be fully conversant, fully aware of what is God. Just like a scholar. He is not limited in one university or in one book. He reads various books to understand the subject matter of his research. Similarly, those who are actually serious about understanding God, they should not stick only to a particular scripture. They should read all others where the information of God is there. Just like we sometimes quote from Bible, but the Christians, they cannot quote from Bhagavad-gita or Bhagavata. They cannot do that. But they do not read. Even they do not read fully their Bible.
Professor Durckheim: No, they don't.
Prabhupada: Just see. And still, they want to be masters of understanding God. I have seen many scholars in the western countries. They are well known as Sanskrit scholar. But they cannot quote even a verse.
Professor Durckheim: I see. Well, it's a pity. Sanskrit scholars...
Prabhupada: Yes. But I understand in Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.
Professor Durckheim: It seems so.
Prabhupada: In Germany there are many learned Sanskrit scholars. But till now I have not met any one of them.
Professor Durckheim: Well, to be a scholar in the usual sense of the word and to really go into the meaning, they are two different things. There are sometimes people who seeks to be a scholar, but in their actual knowledge, they have no insight. And that's also the case in the, with the theologian and the Bible. They know the Bible sometimes...
Prabhupada: No, that is required.
Professor Durckheim: ...but they don't enter into the meaning. They interpret it just along their small brains because they haven't got the experience.
Hamsaduta: Do you want to go this way around, Prabhupada, or just walk straight on?
Prabhupada: No, straight. Car is there?
Hamsaduta: Yeah, car is there, following us. [break]
Prabhupada: Artificially they live in the city.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, there are now millions and millions of children who never have seen a cow, never seen a horse.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: They go and stand at the zoo to see an animal. Yes, It's true. And I have just now in my center the visit of six Americans from Chicago who have their psychological center, and they wanted to know what we do, and they told me. They have a special little area where children are taken to see one cow, you see, or one horse just to know what it is because they never see it, never see an animal.
Prabhupada: Most unnatural life. City life, most unnatural.
Professor Durckheim: Oh, there are many children, they have never seen a tree. [break] ...sleeping only very few hours.
Prabhupada: Not very few hours. Say, four, five hours altogether. Altogether. Maximum five, minimum four.
Professor Durckheim: All the night or do you at the day sometimes?
Prabhupada: No. At night I get up at one, at half past one, sometimes half past twelve. But I take a little rest, one or two hour in the daytime. So two hours at night, two hours at day, or three hours at night, two hours in day. In this way, altogether five hours, not more than that. Our predecessor gurus, Gosvamis, they were taking rest not more than two hours or 2-1/2 hours. So we should come to that standard, yes. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. About them this description is: they reduced their sleeping, nidra. Nidra means sleeping. And ahara. Ahara means eating and collection. Collection is also ahara. Yes. So they were mendicant. They had no collection. And they had no preaching mission. They were simply writing books. Nana-sastra-vicaranaika-
Professor Durckheim: The Radha-Krsna center in Geneva, for instance, has there any connection with you, the Swami Nityabowa-badananda? (?)
Hamsaduta: No.
Professor Durckheim: No, no connection.
Prabhupada: They are all impersonalists. The whole world is impersonalist. Perhaps we are only the personalists.
Professor Durckheim: You know that the Christian theologian, they think the main difference between them and Eastern religions altogether is that the Christian are personalists and Eastern tradition is not personalist. This is the whole...
Prabhupada: Misconception, yes. The majority of Indian population, they are personalists. Yes, majority. Either they worship God or demigod, but they are personalists. Recently the Mayavadi philosophers, they have poisoned, the impersonalism, calamity. God is person. It is... In the Veda it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). There are millions of persons. We are all persons. And God is the chief person. Just like in modern democracy, there is no monarch. But ultimately they have to select one president. Without person, there cannot be government. Why they do not remain without a president? Let it... Government, everything is government, impersonal. Why they select a president?
Professor Durckheim: Yes. One who takes lead, yes, sure.
Prabhupada: Yes. So if for a small government, three bighas of land, you require a personal governor, and such a huge government, millions and millions of universes, how the governor, the Supreme Person, supreme executive, shall not be a person? What is the reason? Actually, at the present moment, people have given up to understand the science of God. That is the defect. They are thinking everything here. Here is advertisement, "Everything here. Come on. Here is a bottle. Here is the pack (peg?). Come on." Everything here. That is the defect. And we are preaching, "Everything is not there." "Everything is lost there," we are preaching. No intoxication. And the material world is preaching, "Everything is there." This is the difference. We are preaching, "Everything is here in Krsna, in God." We have... There is a tendency here. Just see. They want to worship Deity. Even on the street side there is such thing. The tendency is to worship Deity, person. I have seen in Rome. In many small lanes, they have got this, yes. Personal worship. So the village men, they are all sleeping now?
Professor Durckheim: Yes. Most of them are sleeping.
Prabhupada: They are enjoying. Sleeping is enjoying.
Professor Durckheim: This is a very ugly village here.
Prabhupada: Why? It is very clean.
Professor Durckheim: Nothing but stone. No gardens, no flowers. Usually it is different.
Prabhupada: In other words, you mean to say that "the village for the stone-hearted."
Professor Durckheim: Yes.
Hamsaduta: The village is for the stone-hearted. Nothing but stones.
Professor Durckheim: Once when I was in Paris and walking the streets and nothing but stone and stone and iron and nothing alive, I suddenly heard a voice, coming from beneath, as if there were a big, big one. I heard the voice, if you like, of God and saying, "Well, isn't there not a little spot there where I could manifest myself?" The sadness of God. I heard the voice, "This is the sadness of God." Was very impressive to me. Really a real voice in myself. Because a town like this has no place, no channel, for His voice to come through.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: That was the feeling at that moment. [break] ...smell of the baked bread.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Professor Durckheim: Is it very agreeable?
Prabhupada: What can be done? We have to be accustomed because we have to go all the western countries, the boiling meat. So let us go out now.
Hamsaduta: You want to go in here, the car. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- June 21, 1974, Germany
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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