Germany, June 20, 1974 download Players
Prabhupada: ...scientists can change
it? Nature. Nature. Nature should be one kind. Why there are two kinds,
varieties? [break] ...migration of the soul is clearly understood or not?
Explain how the transmigration takes place.Madhavananda: Dehino 'smin yatha
dehe kaumaram... [Bg. 2.13].
Prabhupada: That is sloka, but you explain how it takes place.
Satsvarupa: We get a body according to our desires, and then the body only lasts so long, and when it wears out, we have to take another body, and that is determined by our actions in this body.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But how you transmigrate?
Hamsaduta: According to the mental condition at the time of leaving this body.
Prabhupada: But what is the process?
Satsvarupa: The subtle body carries the soul.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the main point. The subtle body carries the soul. Just like in dream, we are carried by the subtle body and placed in different condition. But so long this body is capable of working, I come to this body. My dream is over, and I come back to this body. And death means that this body, being useless, instead of coming to this body, I go to another body. This is transmigration. Just like when you vacate an apartment, then you do not come back in that apartment, but you enter another apartment. Is it clear?
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: Anybody can understand. I am coming, going, but when it is a question of vacating, I go out of the apartment, but I never come back again. I will enter another apartment. "The soul enters another body" means enters the womb of another mother. And there the suitable body is created and again mother delivers the child. Again new chapter of life begins. Where is the difficulty to understand? But they are so rascal and dull-headed, the simple thing they cannot understand. And still, they are big, big scientists, philosophers, and cheating others. They are unable to understand, themselves, and the same rascal knowledge they are distributing to others and taking Nobel Prize. This is the mudhas, the society of the cheaters and the cheated. Where is the difficulty to understand the simple thing, how the soul is transmigrating? They sometimes say that "We do not see how it is going." No, how...? Can you see the mind? But can you deny, "There is no mind?" Mind is there. Everyone knows I have got mind, you have got mind, but do I see your mind? Therefore I shall deny the existence of mind? Mind, intelligence and ego -- these three things are there, but we cannot see. How my mind is working, can you see? Or how your mind is working, can I see? And because I cannot see, therefore shall I conclude that you have no mind, I have no mind? How foolish they are. Just see. What is their explanation, Satsvarupa?
Satsvarupa: I was just thinking of a different argument of theirs.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Satsvarupa: That is that sometimes people say, "I don't mind this transmigration if I become a cat or a dog because if I forget so completely, it doesn't matter. I won't even suffer."
Prabhupada: But it doesn't matter, but if I say that "I will turn you immediately into a dog," will you agree to become?
Satsvarupa: No.
Prabhupada: Why? You'll forget.
Satsvarupa: Fearful.
Prabhupada: If I say that "I can turn you immediately to become a dog..." That is possible, but will you agree to become a dog?
Madhavananda: No.
Prabhupada: Why? You will forget. That is foolishness. "Because I shall forget, therefore I don't care for it" -- this is childish, foolish proposal. If I say, "I will turn you immediately to this grass, and you will stay here for one hundred years," will you agree to stand like that for hundred years? Hare Krsna. In the western countries actually there is no philosophy.
Madhavananda: When this is explained to them, they usually, if they are a little intelligent, can understand, but they don't want to understand.
Prabhupada: That is the difference. And therefore they are rascals. No intelligence. Intelligence is there, but it is so covered that it is almost like trees. Trees are also intelligent because it is life. There is intelligence. You will see one tree is growing. If there is wall, it will grow like this. Have you seen it?
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is intelligence. And it is proved by science. Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he has got institute. A machine records how a tree feeling. You cut one tree. How it is feeling pain, that is recorded in the machine.
Hamsaduta: They also hear sound. They made some experiment that when they grow plants with music, they grow more.
Prabhupada: Oh, just see.
Hamsaduta: In greenhouses. They play music. Then they become more healthy.
Prabhupada: Just see. Their sensation is very covered. Just like you cut the nails. There is no sensation. And does it mean there is no sensation-therefore there is no life? Unless there is life, how it is growing? It is growing; therefore you cut. But when you cut, there is no sensation. But there is life. Otherwise, how it is growing? The same nail, when you cut, you throw it on the ground. It will not grow. These are practical example. Just like little child. Their sensation is less. I know. My eldest daughter, when she was six months old, there was some boil. So the doctor operated. She simply, "Uh, uh," no cried. I have seen it. She was not crying. But the same boil, when a fully developed man, he will feel more sensation. So according to the body, the sensations are different. The same things, means mind, intelligence and ego, according to the body, they act differently. But the mind, intelligence and ego are there. The dog is coming, and if I say, "Hut!", unless it has got intelligence, how it goes away the other way? There is intelligence. There is no language, but because he has got intelligence, he can immediately understand I don't want him to come here. So how you can say there is no intelligence? The rascals say "The animals have no intelligence; therefore they have no soul." If one has no intelligence, there is no soul. That is admitted. But here is intelligence. How can you deny, "There is no soul"? The animals, the cows, when they are taken to the slaughterhouse, why they cry? Because he has intelligence that "Now I am going to be killed." And these rascals say there is no soul. And still, they are religious priests. Such fools and rascals are made religious fools, priests. No common sense. And they also get degree, Doctor of Divinity, DD. [break] ...Greek scholar, here in this Germany or in nearby?
Hamsaduta: I don't know Prabhupada. We have been here for too short a time to find out who is exactly here, and all the people we contacted, their program was already fixed. They could not come, but they said they would be happy to meet you if you came again.
Prabhupada: That's all right. I wanted to know the philology of the Greek word "Kristo." Or is there any dictionary? Find out the word "Kristo."
Hamsaduta: Yeah, we can see today.
Prabhupada: Greek dictionary. [break] ...France.
Hamsaduta: Germany is bordered by many countries -- Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Switzerland. So we are right in the center of Germany. So Germany is in the center of Europe.
Prabhupada: [break] ...even a single stick like this in the laboratory. What do you think? You can?
Satsvarupa: No.
Prabhupada: What is scientist? Simply talking. Vikathyante. Vikathyante. This word is used in Bhagavata. When one is covered by maya, he talks so many nonsense things, vikathayante. [break]
Madhavananda: ...different living entities in different material bodies suffering.
Prabhupada: Yes. So long you have a material body, you must suffer. Just like in prisonhouse. When the criminals are put there, they are punished different way according to the criminal offense, similarly, you are, we are all criminals, and for different types of suffering we have got different types of body. Different types of body means different types of suffering. Just like this tree is punished, "Stand here for three hundred years." This is punishment. Just like we do, "Stand up on the bench!" Children. So any kind of material body, even Lord Brahma, that is suffering, different types of suffering. That's all. And if you want to be free from the suffering, then get out of this material body. This is... Krsna says that this is a place for suffering. Where does He say?
Satsvarupa: A-brahma-bhuvanal lokah: [Bg. 8.16] "From the highest planet down to the lowest, all are places of suffering where birth and death take place."
Prabhupada: Yes. (aside:) Just from distance, not so near. Duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Duhkha. Duhkha means suffering. Alayam. Alayam means place. So the creator of this universe, the Supreme Lord, He is saying, "This is a place for suffering." And it is called Mrtyu-loka, "For death, the planets for dying." That means death is unnatural to the eternal soul. But anywhere you live within this material world, you will die. That is material world. Either you live as a Brahma or live as a small insect, ant, you must die. Bhutva bhutva praliyate: [Bg. 8.19] death and again take birth, death and again take birth. But these rascals, they do not know: "This is natural, that's all." That one can stop this death and birth, they have no knowledge. And still, they are big, big scholars. They do not know that this movement is for stopping birth and death. Do they understand this?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: They cannot believe it. They have no so brain.
Satsvarupa: They say, "Well, that's the way you think in the East. It is very interesting."
Prabhupada: And why don't you think? That means you are fool. You cannot think, just like dog cannot think. So you are equal to dog. Tell them like that. It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of understanding. In the East also there are many rascals, and in the West there are many intelligent. If it is the East and West question, how the Western boys and girls taking this philosophy? It is not the East and West. It is the question of the rascal and intelligent. One who is intelligent, either he is East and West, he can understand. And one is a rascal, either he is East and West, he cannot understand. This is the real problem. Just like this cemetery. What is the use of keeping this cemetery, occupying unnecessarily so much land? And they are worshiping. They will not go to worship Radha-Krsna, but they will worship stone, bhutejya, offer flower, kneel down. And where the man has gone, he does not know. Bhutejya. And we saw in the Geneva. A big plot of land is occupied.
Hamsaduta: Every city has two or three at least, very big, because everyone has to get such a plot.
Prabhupada: And there are many ghosts also. Yes. Especially at night, if you go, you will see. There was a ghost in the house of John Lennon. John Lennon. I was guest there. There was a ghost. [ ...binding to the maya, to just remain a slave of maya and drink this beer. [break]
Hamsaduta: They introduced this.
Prabhupada: So before that, there was no Christian?
Hamsaduta: No, before that, there was no Christian.
Prabhupada: What they were? No religion?
Hamsaduta: They were like you said. They were just tribes people.
Prabhupada: Oh. So these Germans were tribe people, uncivilized?
Hamsaduta: Yes, before Christianity, Europe was completely uncivilized.
Prabhupada: Oh. Therefore the order is "Thou shalt not kill." Simply their business was killing. Uncivilized persons, they kill animals and eat. So due to past habit they could not forget this killing business. This is the proof that this system of religion was preached among the crude people, not civilized. So why they introduced this beer?
Hamsaduta: It was a kind of refreshment.
Prabhupada: But before that, they were not drinking.
Hamsaduta: There may have been something like wine. The monks also used to make wine.
Prabhupada: Yes, they make wine. Uncivilized men, they know how to make wine. In India they do so by rice boiling and keep it for some days. It becomes wine, fermented. Hare Krsna. [break] ...used to say that "I was drinking beer in barrels." He said. Forty years ago he said me like that. Here I don't see them, but Hamburg I have seen, yes, passing urine on the roadside. There are so many urine coming from the wall. 'Cause the more you drink beer, you will pass urine more. The German language is trinken, trinking. Drinking means trinking. Yes, I have seen it. Trinking or trinken?
Hamsaduta: Trinken.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...students, they are advancing for the unflinching faith on guru and Krsna. This is the secret. [break] ...these devotees, how nice they are. They do not appreciate?
Hamsaduta: I think most of them cannot understand it, but they sympathize, I think, because the principles are (indistinct).
Prabhupada: That is appreciation.
Hamsaduta: Yes, for the principles. At least in Germany we find that although people don't understand it, they appreciate that we are following the four principles.
Prabhupada: [break] ...understood that this group is another edition of hippies. Gradually they are learning that they are not hippies. They are serious. [break] ...paper it was published that "Swami Bhaktivedanta has come in the right time." And what is that?
Satsvarupa: Yes, in a number of articles, the writer notes that Prabhupada came at a perfect time in history, and went to the right place, the lower East Side of New York, and then again in Haight Ashbury, just when the hippie movement was big but they were looking for spiritual life. That is a historical expert move that you made.
Prabhupada: No, that is very good remark, appreciated. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He is known as patita-pavana, the deliverer of the most fallen. Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara: "My Lord, Your incarnation is for the reason to deliver all the fallen souls." So He gave one example by delivering Jagai and Madhai, but by His grace, now thousands of Jagai-Madhais are being delivered. He gave the example that here is the typical patita, fallen. So this movement will deliver this kind of people. That is His prediction. Or it... factually by this movement, so many Jagai-Madhais are being delivered. Jagai... What was their fault? The fault was they were number one woman hunter and all other good qualifications: (laughing) drunkard, meat-eaters and thieves, rogues. That is their qualification. And immediately Caitanya Mahaprabhu turned them to become Vaisnava. "Simply promise that... You say that you shall not commit anymore these sinful activities." "Yes, Sir, I will not." So that process we are going on. (end)
Prabhupada: That is sloka, but you explain how it takes place.
Satsvarupa: We get a body according to our desires, and then the body only lasts so long, and when it wears out, we have to take another body, and that is determined by our actions in this body.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But how you transmigrate?
Hamsaduta: According to the mental condition at the time of leaving this body.
Prabhupada: But what is the process?
Satsvarupa: The subtle body carries the soul.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the main point. The subtle body carries the soul. Just like in dream, we are carried by the subtle body and placed in different condition. But so long this body is capable of working, I come to this body. My dream is over, and I come back to this body. And death means that this body, being useless, instead of coming to this body, I go to another body. This is transmigration. Just like when you vacate an apartment, then you do not come back in that apartment, but you enter another apartment. Is it clear?
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: Anybody can understand. I am coming, going, but when it is a question of vacating, I go out of the apartment, but I never come back again. I will enter another apartment. "The soul enters another body" means enters the womb of another mother. And there the suitable body is created and again mother delivers the child. Again new chapter of life begins. Where is the difficulty to understand? But they are so rascal and dull-headed, the simple thing they cannot understand. And still, they are big, big scientists, philosophers, and cheating others. They are unable to understand, themselves, and the same rascal knowledge they are distributing to others and taking Nobel Prize. This is the mudhas, the society of the cheaters and the cheated. Where is the difficulty to understand the simple thing, how the soul is transmigrating? They sometimes say that "We do not see how it is going." No, how...? Can you see the mind? But can you deny, "There is no mind?" Mind is there. Everyone knows I have got mind, you have got mind, but do I see your mind? Therefore I shall deny the existence of mind? Mind, intelligence and ego -- these three things are there, but we cannot see. How my mind is working, can you see? Or how your mind is working, can I see? And because I cannot see, therefore shall I conclude that you have no mind, I have no mind? How foolish they are. Just see. What is their explanation, Satsvarupa?
Satsvarupa: I was just thinking of a different argument of theirs.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Satsvarupa: That is that sometimes people say, "I don't mind this transmigration if I become a cat or a dog because if I forget so completely, it doesn't matter. I won't even suffer."
Prabhupada: But it doesn't matter, but if I say that "I will turn you immediately into a dog," will you agree to become?
Satsvarupa: No.
Prabhupada: Why? You'll forget.
Satsvarupa: Fearful.
Prabhupada: If I say that "I can turn you immediately to become a dog..." That is possible, but will you agree to become a dog?
Madhavananda: No.
Prabhupada: Why? You will forget. That is foolishness. "Because I shall forget, therefore I don't care for it" -- this is childish, foolish proposal. If I say, "I will turn you immediately to this grass, and you will stay here for one hundred years," will you agree to stand like that for hundred years? Hare Krsna. In the western countries actually there is no philosophy.
Madhavananda: When this is explained to them, they usually, if they are a little intelligent, can understand, but they don't want to understand.
Prabhupada: That is the difference. And therefore they are rascals. No intelligence. Intelligence is there, but it is so covered that it is almost like trees. Trees are also intelligent because it is life. There is intelligence. You will see one tree is growing. If there is wall, it will grow like this. Have you seen it?
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is intelligence. And it is proved by science. Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he has got institute. A machine records how a tree feeling. You cut one tree. How it is feeling pain, that is recorded in the machine.
Hamsaduta: They also hear sound. They made some experiment that when they grow plants with music, they grow more.
Prabhupada: Oh, just see.
Hamsaduta: In greenhouses. They play music. Then they become more healthy.
Prabhupada: Just see. Their sensation is very covered. Just like you cut the nails. There is no sensation. And does it mean there is no sensation-therefore there is no life? Unless there is life, how it is growing? It is growing; therefore you cut. But when you cut, there is no sensation. But there is life. Otherwise, how it is growing? The same nail, when you cut, you throw it on the ground. It will not grow. These are practical example. Just like little child. Their sensation is less. I know. My eldest daughter, when she was six months old, there was some boil. So the doctor operated. She simply, "Uh, uh," no cried. I have seen it. She was not crying. But the same boil, when a fully developed man, he will feel more sensation. So according to the body, the sensations are different. The same things, means mind, intelligence and ego, according to the body, they act differently. But the mind, intelligence and ego are there. The dog is coming, and if I say, "Hut!", unless it has got intelligence, how it goes away the other way? There is intelligence. There is no language, but because he has got intelligence, he can immediately understand I don't want him to come here. So how you can say there is no intelligence? The rascals say "The animals have no intelligence; therefore they have no soul." If one has no intelligence, there is no soul. That is admitted. But here is intelligence. How can you deny, "There is no soul"? The animals, the cows, when they are taken to the slaughterhouse, why they cry? Because he has intelligence that "Now I am going to be killed." And these rascals say there is no soul. And still, they are religious priests. Such fools and rascals are made religious fools, priests. No common sense. And they also get degree, Doctor of Divinity, DD. [break] ...Greek scholar, here in this Germany or in nearby?
Hamsaduta: I don't know Prabhupada. We have been here for too short a time to find out who is exactly here, and all the people we contacted, their program was already fixed. They could not come, but they said they would be happy to meet you if you came again.
Prabhupada: That's all right. I wanted to know the philology of the Greek word "Kristo." Or is there any dictionary? Find out the word "Kristo."
Hamsaduta: Yeah, we can see today.
Prabhupada: Greek dictionary. [break] ...France.
Hamsaduta: Germany is bordered by many countries -- Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Switzerland. So we are right in the center of Germany. So Germany is in the center of Europe.
Prabhupada: [break] ...even a single stick like this in the laboratory. What do you think? You can?
Satsvarupa: No.
Prabhupada: What is scientist? Simply talking. Vikathyante. Vikathyante. This word is used in Bhagavata. When one is covered by maya, he talks so many nonsense things, vikathayante. [break]
Madhavananda: ...different living entities in different material bodies suffering.
Prabhupada: Yes. So long you have a material body, you must suffer. Just like in prisonhouse. When the criminals are put there, they are punished different way according to the criminal offense, similarly, you are, we are all criminals, and for different types of suffering we have got different types of body. Different types of body means different types of suffering. Just like this tree is punished, "Stand here for three hundred years." This is punishment. Just like we do, "Stand up on the bench!" Children. So any kind of material body, even Lord Brahma, that is suffering, different types of suffering. That's all. And if you want to be free from the suffering, then get out of this material body. This is... Krsna says that this is a place for suffering. Where does He say?
Satsvarupa: A-brahma-bhuvanal lokah: [Bg. 8.16] "From the highest planet down to the lowest, all are places of suffering where birth and death take place."
Prabhupada: Yes. (aside:) Just from distance, not so near. Duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Duhkha. Duhkha means suffering. Alayam. Alayam means place. So the creator of this universe, the Supreme Lord, He is saying, "This is a place for suffering." And it is called Mrtyu-loka, "For death, the planets for dying." That means death is unnatural to the eternal soul. But anywhere you live within this material world, you will die. That is material world. Either you live as a Brahma or live as a small insect, ant, you must die. Bhutva bhutva praliyate: [Bg. 8.19] death and again take birth, death and again take birth. But these rascals, they do not know: "This is natural, that's all." That one can stop this death and birth, they have no knowledge. And still, they are big, big scholars. They do not know that this movement is for stopping birth and death. Do they understand this?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: They cannot believe it. They have no so brain.
Satsvarupa: They say, "Well, that's the way you think in the East. It is very interesting."
Prabhupada: And why don't you think? That means you are fool. You cannot think, just like dog cannot think. So you are equal to dog. Tell them like that. It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of understanding. In the East also there are many rascals, and in the West there are many intelligent. If it is the East and West question, how the Western boys and girls taking this philosophy? It is not the East and West. It is the question of the rascal and intelligent. One who is intelligent, either he is East and West, he can understand. And one is a rascal, either he is East and West, he cannot understand. This is the real problem. Just like this cemetery. What is the use of keeping this cemetery, occupying unnecessarily so much land? And they are worshiping. They will not go to worship Radha-Krsna, but they will worship stone, bhutejya, offer flower, kneel down. And where the man has gone, he does not know. Bhutejya. And we saw in the Geneva. A big plot of land is occupied.
Hamsaduta: Every city has two or three at least, very big, because everyone has to get such a plot.
Prabhupada: And there are many ghosts also. Yes. Especially at night, if you go, you will see. There was a ghost in the house of John Lennon. John Lennon. I was guest there. There was a ghost. [ ...binding to the maya, to just remain a slave of maya and drink this beer. [break]
Hamsaduta: They introduced this.
Prabhupada: So before that, there was no Christian?
Hamsaduta: No, before that, there was no Christian.
Prabhupada: What they were? No religion?
Hamsaduta: They were like you said. They were just tribes people.
Prabhupada: Oh. So these Germans were tribe people, uncivilized?
Hamsaduta: Yes, before Christianity, Europe was completely uncivilized.
Prabhupada: Oh. Therefore the order is "Thou shalt not kill." Simply their business was killing. Uncivilized persons, they kill animals and eat. So due to past habit they could not forget this killing business. This is the proof that this system of religion was preached among the crude people, not civilized. So why they introduced this beer?
Hamsaduta: It was a kind of refreshment.
Prabhupada: But before that, they were not drinking.
Hamsaduta: There may have been something like wine. The monks also used to make wine.
Prabhupada: Yes, they make wine. Uncivilized men, they know how to make wine. In India they do so by rice boiling and keep it for some days. It becomes wine, fermented. Hare Krsna. [break] ...used to say that "I was drinking beer in barrels." He said. Forty years ago he said me like that. Here I don't see them, but Hamburg I have seen, yes, passing urine on the roadside. There are so many urine coming from the wall. 'Cause the more you drink beer, you will pass urine more. The German language is trinken, trinking. Drinking means trinking. Yes, I have seen it. Trinking or trinken?
Hamsaduta: Trinken.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...students, they are advancing for the unflinching faith on guru and Krsna. This is the secret. [break] ...these devotees, how nice they are. They do not appreciate?
Hamsaduta: I think most of them cannot understand it, but they sympathize, I think, because the principles are (indistinct).
Prabhupada: That is appreciation.
Hamsaduta: Yes, for the principles. At least in Germany we find that although people don't understand it, they appreciate that we are following the four principles.
Prabhupada: [break] ...understood that this group is another edition of hippies. Gradually they are learning that they are not hippies. They are serious. [break] ...paper it was published that "Swami Bhaktivedanta has come in the right time." And what is that?
Satsvarupa: Yes, in a number of articles, the writer notes that Prabhupada came at a perfect time in history, and went to the right place, the lower East Side of New York, and then again in Haight Ashbury, just when the hippie movement was big but they were looking for spiritual life. That is a historical expert move that you made.
Prabhupada: No, that is very good remark, appreciated. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He is known as patita-pavana, the deliverer of the most fallen. Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara: "My Lord, Your incarnation is for the reason to deliver all the fallen souls." So He gave one example by delivering Jagai and Madhai, but by His grace, now thousands of Jagai-Madhais are being delivered. He gave the example that here is the typical patita, fallen. So this movement will deliver this kind of people. That is His prediction. Or it... factually by this movement, so many Jagai-Madhais are being delivered. Jagai... What was their fault? The fault was they were number one woman hunter and all other good qualifications: (laughing) drunkard, meat-eaters and thieves, rogues. That is their qualification. And immediately Caitanya Mahaprabhu turned them to become Vaisnava. "Simply promise that... You say that you shall not commit anymore these sinful activities." "Yes, Sir, I will not." So that process we are going on. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- June 20, 1974, Germany
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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