Perth, May 8, 1975 download Players
Prabhupada:What the atheist will say?
Has the atheist any experience that any machine works without operator? Has he
got any experience?Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: Then why does he say?
Paramahamsa: But this whole universe -- we cannot compare the whole universe with any machine created by man.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Why you bring man? This machine is created and being operated by God.
Paramahamsa: Well, we don't have any experience of such a machine.
Prabhupada: Huh? What do you mean by machine. First of all define what is your idea of machine. Just like the other day we saw, we saw the Thompson place, being printed, being collected, and so many things are being done. It is like this. By machine the seasonal changes are going on, the sun is rising, the moon is rising, the water in the ocean, the waves are there. Everything, machine working. It is machine. Everything being systematically done. Such a big ocean, vast water, it is just on the brink, no more. It is so organized. The sun is rising exactly in time, astronomically. The astronomical watch is one ten-thousandth part of a second. It is so accurate. You'll find everything is going on. [break] Today is ekadasi, eleventh day of the moon, the moon shall be like this. There one can see the moon and he can calculate. "Today is ekadasi." This is not machine? It is exactly, machine.
Paramahamsa: But the thing is this machine is so wonderful that it goes on without an operator.
Prabhupada: That is your dullness! You are rascal, you cannot understand how the machine is working, how big it is, that is your dullness. But it is a machine. Very big machine. You cannot understand -- that is not (argument) that this is not a machine. This is not very good argument, that "I cannot understand, therefore it is not a machine." But you see the idea machine is there already, everything is going on -- machine.
Srutakirti: It is such a good machine it doesn't require an operator.
Paramahamsa: That is the wonder of it.
Prabhupada: No. That is wrong. You cannot find out in your experience anywhere, any machine which is not being operated by a person. You cannot find it. Then why do you bring this idea that without operator it is going on. Where you get this idea? This is a false idea. Because you have no such experience. Where is the machine that "Here is a machine going on without any operator." Find out a machine.
Paramahamsa: We're trying. (laughter) There are some automatic machines.
Prabhupada: Automatic is at the hand of the operator.
Srutakirti: Someone must turn it on and off.
Prabhupada: Yes. There is no such automatic machine. It is impossible to prove.
Ganesa: But we can see the operator of these small machines, Srila Prabhupada, we cannot see the operator of this big machine.
Prabhupada: Have you seen the operator in the power house?
Ganesa: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Do you think the powerhouse is going on?
Paramahamsa: Well we could see him. We could go, we could drive there right now and see him.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can see. You can go to Krsna and see Him. That requires qualification.
Paramahamsa: That's not as easy.
Prabhupada: No, it is very easy. It is simply, as we are teaching our students, just become a devotee, offer namaskar, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto, always think of Him, and you will go to Him. It is not at all difficult. Bahavo jnana-tapasa puta mad-bhavam agatah. Bahavo, many, did come to Me. How? Jnana-tapasa, by knowledge and tapasya, being purified, they come to Me. Krsna says. Why you are disappointed? You can go. Krsna is open. Te 'pi yanti param gatim. Striya sudra tatha vaisya, even the women, less intelligent, the sudra, vaisya, they can come. Where is the difficulty? Even if you are born very lowest, you can go. Krsna is open to everyone. Simply you become qualified. That's all. And what is the qualification? Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], just always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your respects to Me, and man-mana, worship Me. Four things. That... We are opening this temple (in Melbourne) for this purpose, that you always think of Him, you worship Him, you offer obeisances to Him, and become His devotee. And then? Mam evaisyasi asamsayah [Bg. 18.65], without a doubt you will come to Him. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty.
Paramahamsa: If the operator of the powerhouse, he is operating and running the powerhouse, but it's not really necessary that we go and see him. We can simply enjoy the facilities offered by the powerhouse.
Prabhupada: That's alright, but if you are intelligent enough, if you are a rascal fool, you cannot see, but if you are intelligent, then you'll be eager to: "Who is operating? Let me see?" That is the difference of intelligence. Dull, just like we read one story. One little boy he was beating on a drum. So, he became inquisitive, "Wherefrom the sound is coming? Somebody must be within it." He took a knife and cut it. This is intelligence. Wherefrom the sound is coming? He was beating-dum, dum, dum -- he became inquisitive. That is intelligence. A dull student-coming, that's all. And intelligent, he tries to (find out), that is intelligence. Inquisitive. Intelligent boy will always enquire, "What is this, father? What is this father? Wherefrom the sound is coming?" That is intelligence. So, if one is very dull -- just like cats and dogs, they cannot enquire. What is this machine? What is this behind? It is the human form of life -- these enquiries should come. Otherwise he remains a cat and dog.
Jayadharma: They say that they don't accept this body as a machine because they've never experienced a machine that can think, feel, and will for itself.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Paramahamsa: Well they say that this body is more complicated than any other machine because it can think, feel, and will, whereas other machines don't do that.
Prabhupada: But the thinking, feeling, the brain is there. If the... That is the particular machine, because the operator is within. That you cannot see. The thinking, feeling is coming from the operator. The soul is there, dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. That these rascals cannot understand, that the thinking, feeling, that is of the operator, not of the machine. Is that clear or not? The operator is within. So the thinking, feeling, as you were asking, that is not of the machine, but of the operator, the soul.
Ganesa: Just like the child, Srila Prabhupada, who was trying to find the sound within the drum, the material scientists are trying to find out the cause and effect of the material world. Is that not intelligence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not reached the ultimate goal.
Paramahamsa: But they are trying.
Prabhupada: They are trying. That is admitted. But, they are concluding that there is no operator. That is their foolishness, because they have failed to find out. They have to go further, further, and see, "Yes, there is operator." That is the final part of the... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam [Bg. 7.19]. So after many, many births of sincere inquiry, when he is actually intelligent, he will see, "Oh, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Here is Vasudeva. He is everything." That is stated. He'll enquire. Go on enquiring, life after life. And then he'll come to understand vasudevah-sa mahatma su-durlabhah. You did not read this verse? They will come, after much trouble, much enquiry, they will come to the same conclusion, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. But they'll waste time. That's all. When we say, "Here is operator," they will not take. But they'll waste time, and life after life laboring, one day they will come.
Jayadharma: Does that mean that everybody is ultimately on the way back home? Back to Godhead?
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone is enquiring, but according to his intelligence, perfection, he is making progress. Everyone. Everyone, because he is meant for that purpose. He has forgotten Krsna, and Krsna is the reservoir of all pleasure. He is trying to find out pleasure other than Krsna, therefore he is being baffled. Unless he comes to Krsna there is no pleasure. That he does not know.
Paramahamsa: We have a saying in the West that curiosity killed the cat.
Prabhupada: Another example as I gave, crying children, child, crying, crying, crying, crying. As soon as he is on the lap of his mother, immediately stops. Why? He can understand, "Now I have got the real thing." Other woman taking, he still continues crying. You have seen it? This is practical. But when the child comes to the lap of his own mother, he immediately stops. Mother also takes care, "My dear child, come." He sucks the breast and is satisfied.
Ganesa: So one day the material scientist after many, many births will come to understand Vasudeva or Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ganesa: They will become devotees.
Prabhupada: But that is their foolishness. We, people, Krsna conscious people say, "Here is your ultimate goal of this science. Take it." That they will not take. That is foolishness. They will come to the same point. But when you offer him, he will not take. That is less intelligent. [break]
Paramahamsa: You were saying that inquisitiveness is the...
Prabhupada: That is human life. That inquisitiveness cannot be found in cats and dogs. That is the difference between cats and dogs and human being. Human being, unless he becomes inquisitive for what is the ultimate source, he is not human being. All these people, 99.9 per cent people, they are not inquisitive. They are searching after some happiness, but they are not inquisitive what is the source of happiness. They are being baffled in the material world. They have, for happiness they have discovered this horseless carriage and so many things, but there is so much unhappiness also when the motor car is crashed between two and life is lost. They are not inquisitive that we have invented this machine for happiness, why this disaster? That intelligence is not. That is it. They are simply going on searching after, but when we say, "No, not in this way, come this way and you'll get happiness," They'll not. That is (inaudible).
Paramahamsa: But if a person becomes too much inquisitive, just like with the boy and the mrdanga, due to his inquisitiveness he ruined the mrdanga, and then he doesn't have any drum.
Prabhupada: That's alright. The drum can be purchased again, but he should be given credit because he is inquisitive. You can purchase another drum, it doesn't matter, but he gets the credit because he is inquisitive.
Ganesa: What about the scientists, Srila Prabhupada? They are very inquisitive, they are trying to find out the cause of the material world.
Prabhupada: That credit we give them. Just like this child. But the childishness is this, that when they are given correct information, they do not take it. (indistinct) If we say to the material scientists that "You are searching after this, here it is, Krsna, aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], I am the original source of everything." they will not accept. That is their foolishness.
Ganesa: They are very inquisitive, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: That credit is already given, but you are inquisitive for a certain thing, if the thing is offered, if you do not accept then you become foolish. Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19], Vasudeva, he'll come to that point, that Krsna is everything, but when you inform him before that here is the thing, he will not take. That is the foolishness.
Paramahamsa: You were saying everyone is inquisitive for happiness, but shouldn't that be purified? Shouldn't we give up all desire for happiness?
Prabhupada: No, no. Happiness is life. How you can give up?
Paramahamsa: But if we desire for happiness, then we are being selfish.
Prabhupada: Yes, but you do not know where you is your self... [break] ...sense. That is your foolishness. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31], they do not know. Everyone is selfish, everyone is self-interested. But he does not know how to fulfill it. That is foolishness.
Paramahamsa: But isn't it better to give up all ego altogether?
Prabhupada: Why? Why? That is Mayavadi philosophy. We make our ego purified. "I am servant of Krsna." That is wanted. Not that to make my egoism zero. That is Mayavada. They are disappointed, they think finish this egoism. It cannot be finished. Because you are individual soul, it cannot be finished. Simply it has to be purified. I am thinking Indian, you are thinking American. You are neither American neither Indian. We are all part and parcel of Krsna. Direct we have to come to that point. Not to falsely think that I am American, I am Indian, I am cat, I am dog. That has to be finished. But you'll come to the real egoism, that I am eternal servant of Krsna. That "I am" will go on. No that... They are thinking in a way to finish the "I am" or "I am the same." Wrong thing.
Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada, the material scientists are so inquisitive, yet they are leading lives like cats and dogs, how can they come to...?
Prabhupada: Yes, because they are wrongly directed. You are inquiring me, "Sir I want to such and such place." If that place is this way, if I say you go this way. You go this way. Then you'll be baffled, and you'll be unhappy. Wrong direction.
Paramahamsa: But we are taking some direction from...
Prabhupada: That's alright, but if you take wrong direction you'll be unhappy. Your destination will not be (reached).
Ganesa: So how can the scientists arrive at vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]?
Prabhupada: For that he has to take direction from Krsna. Krsna says the destination Himself. He comes and says, "Here is, I am the destination, come here." But if you don't take, that is your misfortune. The direction is here. The perfect director is there, but he's unfortunate -- he does not accept this. Therefore he is baffled. We are... Our propaganda is therefore, that you rascals, all blind leaders, rascals, don't try to lead. Take Krsna's instruction and lead. Then you'll be perfect. This is our propaganda. Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect, then (indistinct). Or enquiries must be there but if the answers or the leading is bad, then you have to (indistinct). So we should make our enquiry to Krsna, and take His direction.
Paramahamsa: But some people say that the Bhagavad-gita is the direction, and some people say that the Koran is the direction, some people...
Prabhupada: Some people. Many authorities say it is right, and that is your fortune or misfortune. As some people say that it is written by some man or something, then it is not perfect. There are many others also, they say it is perfect. Now it is your choice, whom you to follow. So that some people as they are against, there are for also. Now it is up to you to accept whom. It is up to you. We accept the direction of the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Caitanya. Their word is perfect. They take the direction of Gandhi or this man, that man. Both of them are taking direction, but when the direction is perfect, then you become perfect. If the direction is imperfect, you remain imperfect. That's all.
Ganesa: We can see from the results of those different directions.
Prabhupada: Yes. Results, phalena-pariciyate. That is required. Now there are so many Gandhi-ite students. They have also read Bhagavad-gita, and you have also read Bhagavad-gita. Find out the difference. That is the result.
Paramahamsa: We have heard that Gandhi was a great mahatma.
Prabhupada: You have heard. You have heard so many things. That mountain gave birth to a mouse. You have heard like that.
Paramahamsa: But Gandhi also read the Bhagavad-gita, and he made so many wonderful comments on the Gita.
Prabhupada: That wonderfulness is for the rascals and the fools. What wonderful he has done? He preached nonviolence, but he was killed by violence. That is his wonderful example. He preached the philosophy of nonviolence, which is impossible. Therefore Krsna killed him by violence. This is his wonderful. And his foolishness was proved, that there cannot be nonviolence. So he was a fool.
Paramahamsa: But he himself was nonviolent.
Prabhupada: Nonviol... That's alright, he was a fool. Therefore I say you cannot bring nonviolence in politics. There is no such history. Just like Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent. Krsna chastized him, that you are a foolish number one. So... This is to bring a horse before a cart. Politics and nonviolence, it is incompatible. It is not possible. And he did it. Therefore he was a fool. Just like if you want to cook without fire. Is it possible?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupada: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, "Now I shall cook without fire." You are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Actually he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence, for thirty years, thirty-five years he struggled. When Subash Bose introduced violence, they were forced out. This is politics. Politics and nonviolence (incompatible). There is no history in the world that politics has been successful without violence, and he introduced this. So how much foolish he was, you can understand. It is same thing like that, if somebody says, "I'll cook without any. I shall scientifically do that a man can give birth to a child." There is no history, and if I say, "Now I shall do it. I shall see that equal rights. As a woman is giving birth to a child, the man will also will give child." These things are foolishness. This is not intelligence. The women are claiming equal rights. So, stop giving birth to a child? Then equal rights. Can it be possible? The man and woman unite, but the woman becomes pregnant, not the man. And if somebody says, now the man will become pregnant, is it not foolishness?
Paramahamsa: But they have made a way so that the women also don't have to become pregnant. This contraceptive, and...
Prabhupada: This is another foolishness. (indistinct) another... [break] This unnatural thing. [break] What is this insignia?
Srutakirti: That is Ford's insignia.
Prabhupada: Ford? This is Ford?
Srutakirti: This is a Ford?
Ganesa: LTD.
Ganesa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Krsna consciousness then, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. [break] ...in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.
Paramahamsa: But we have seen Lord Buddha, he conquered all of India with ahimsa, nonviolence, Lord Buddha.
Prabhupada: Lord Buddha was not a politician.
Paramahamsa: But he conquered India. He became the most...
Prabhupada: That is another thing. He conquered India. If he con-quered India, why he is driven out of India? Nobody is Buddhist now in India. And in Japan, nearly also halfway, so that is (indistinct). Buddha's nonviolence and Gandhi's nonviolence is different.
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Gandhi's nonviolence all rascaldom because he was dealing in politics. Buddha never entered in politics. So how you can compare with Buddha? His activities are different. His activity of false vibration(?), to stop all kinds of miseries of material world. That was his philosophy. He never dealt in politics. Although he was a king's son, he never dealt in politics. You cannot... This is foolishness. We do not know. We do not study what is Buddha's position, what is Gandhi's position.
Paramahamsa: But still, everyone in India respects Gandhi so much. They have statues and everything.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. He was a good gentleman. He was very humble, meek. Because you have got some fault, that does not mean you have no qualities. That is another thing. But if you deal wrongly with something, then you must be called a foolish man. You may have very good qualities, but if you do not know how to deal with business, then you are foolish. He was mainly engaged in politics, but he did not know how to deal with politics. He was reading Bhagavad-gita and he was misleading people that in the Bhagavad-gita there is nonviolence. Just see. Because Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent the whole Bhagavad-gita was taught to him, how to become violent, and this rascal said that in the Bhagavad-gita there is nonviolence. It is not false? So a man preaching falsehood, is he a gentleman? Or he is a right man?
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: So that is his position. Either he is a foolish rascal or he is not a gentleman, falsely preaching Bhagavad-gita. That is his position. If you do not know a subject matter, why do you talk about it? Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, you have no science. Similarly, here is a tape recorder, I do not know how the machine is working. If I talk about it authoritatively is it not my foolishness? I can talk about Bhagavad-gita or something else, but that does mean I know everything about this machine? But he did it like this. He was dealing in politics, and he took up as a mahatma, a religious man. That was his cheating.
Paramahamsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say...
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled. That is not very difficult. Just like from Russia, nobody is communist. But it is going on -- the Russia is communist country. I have studied thoroughly. Nobody is communist. Maybe a few only. But it is going on by propaganda that Russia is a communist country. The people in general, they are forced to accept it. That book was written by some man, terrorism. It is terrorism. That's it. By force. Nobody accepts this communist philosophy, I have studied. (everyone gets out of car) They were very, very unhappy. The young man cannot go out of the country. Just see. Restricted. How much uncomfortable he is feeling. Especially in European countries, the young men, they want to go. But they will not allow. They will not allow anything to read except Lenin's literature. What is this? Simply suppressing. Everyone is unhappy. Which way? This way? This is their position. I have seen it directly. And as soon as one is suspected that he is doing otherwise, he will be sent to some unknown camp. Nobody knows where he has gone.
Paramahamsa: Just like they had some people who came to Russia to start some Buddhist thing, and then they were sent away to some camp, concentration camp.
Prabhupada: Never seen again.
Paramahamsa: No one has seen them.
Prabhupada: Just see. This is their... It is the most fallen country. No freedom. No freedom at all. Horrible country.
Ganesa: Why don't the people revolt if they're so unhappy?
Prabhupada: Yes, they are revolting, but they are now so much suppressed they cannot... Sometimes there is revolt. Sometimes there is upheaval.
Paramahamsa: Not a big upheaval because they are terrorized. They are afraid that if they revolt, then they...
Prabhupada: They will be killed.
Paramahamsa: Yeah, the government will come out and just shoot them all.
Prabhupada: Yes, all the Leninists and Stalinists, they kill. It is a country of terrorism. That's all. The government men, they are simply terrorists. That's all.
Paramahamsa: Just like in Cambodia they just, the new Communist government, they executed tens and thousands of people just recently.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Paramahamsa: People who were working for the old government. They just killed them all. So this what the people are afraid of.
Prabhupada: Yes. Terrorism. This Communism means terrorism. (aside:) Thank you.
Amogha: I have a garland, but it's not finished. Almost...
Prabhupada: Communism means terrorism. That I have seen. I have studied personally. By threat, by pressure, that's all. Nobody is communist in Russia.
Jayadharma: Is the whole world going to become Communist, Prabhupada? Or is the whole world going to become Krsna cons...
Prabhupada: Nobody is Communist, but if the demons are powerful, they will declare.
Paramahamsa: They will introduce it.
Prabhupada: They will not introduce; they will declare like that, falsely. That's all.
Paramahamsa: Even in some countries where Communism has a very light influence, like in Thailand there's a little bit of Communist influence, when they had a student revolt, the government came in with tanks and machine guns and immediately killed about three thousand students.
Prabhupada: In Thailand?
Paramahamsa: Yes. In Bangkok. That was about two years ago.
Prabhupada: Oh, just see.
Paramahamsa: So the people are very afraid to cause any upheaval. They are afraid that immediately the government will just come and kill them. 'Cause the government has all the weapons. They have the tanks and the guns and everything. And the normal people, they don't have any weapons.
Prabhupada: This is the age of Kali-yuga. Therefore the only shelter is Krsna. There is no other way. In India it's practically dwindling. Now there is no reason they are not sanctioning our temple. They do not give any reason. "No!" Why "No"? "We don't give any reason." And "Kirtana is nuisance, nuisance." They are doing that already.
Srutakirti: Srila Prabhupada? For breakfast just fruits?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Srutakirti: Milk?
Prabhupada: No. You can... Cashew and ginger. And you make, what is called, channa. In the lunch make cheese. Cheese, cheese. Fry it, and make preparation.
Srutakirti: Tomato and cheese?
Prabhupada: Tomato, cheese, potato. Yes. And fried peanuts? And salad, fruit. By force... Communism is going on, by force. It is the result of sinful life.
Paramahamsa: They're put into that circumstance.
Prabhupada: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely, and now, by nature... Just like this child killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering. He will be killed. The nature's reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business. Now he is being killed. That is nature's law.
Paramahamsa: The person who doesn't know, he thinks that the child is innocent...
Prabhupada: Innocent child. He's not innocent. He is sinful. He is being, what is called, chastised. Svakarma-phala-rupa-jiva. That is the word, svakarma. One suffers... (aside:) You can sit down here, just like... Everyone suffers the reaction of his own work. Svakarma-phala-rupa-jiva. Because he is a child, he takes sympathy, "Oh, such a small child is being killed." We take it like that. It is that he is the potent criminal. Now he is being punished.
Paramahamsa: You were saying with all these wars. The people that are being killed are simply...
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore those who are in high standard, they do not take anything as wrong. Everyone is suffering his own reaction. Then bhaktas, they think, tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam [SB 10.14.8]. When a devotee is in trouble, he thinks that "I am suffering for my past deeds. [break] ...me." That is a devotee's attitude. "Let me do my business, chant Hare Krsna." And then he is sure. Such person is assured to come back. He doesn't care for all this suffering. He thinks, "I am suffering for my past deeds. That's all. Why shall I bother myself? Let me do my present duty, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna." That is the first-class position. He is assured. In spite of all material difficulties, if he goes on with chanting, then his chance is first. That is stated. Daya-bhak. Daya-bhak means he inherits God's property as the son's inherits the father's property. Daya-bhak. So we should be callous with all these political, social... We should simply go on. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was callous. Family affairs, wife's responsibility, for mother's responsibility for... Nothing. Simply chant Hare Krsna. Kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. Even didn't care for anything, no responsibility. "My only business is chanting." That is... You preach for some time. Then you simply engage in chanting. Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Krsna consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. Except -- this is the clear and simple truth -- except chanting Hare Krsna mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Krsna mantra. This is preaching. That has been shown by all the disciples of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All the Gosvamis, Haridasa Thakura and others, only did that, how to develop Krsna consciousness, no other business. That is sannyasa. He has no other business. To preach Krsna consciousness, to practice Krsna consciousness, to convince Krsna consciousness, that's all, no other business. We don't take part in politics, sociology, and mental speculation, "science," or so on, so on, all nonsense. We reject, all kicked out. That is the perfection. It is simply waste of time. These are all superficial. Just like waves in the sea. Where is the meaning? The waves are going on. Oh, very nice. You collected all these flowers?
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupada: Great service.
Amogha: From the public gardens. There is a big public garden.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Amogha: The government plants for the city to look nice.
Prabhupada: But you are stealing.
Amogha: No, not from anyone's house.
Paramahamsa: From the government.
Prabhupada: Very, very nice flowers. Such a big rose I have never seen.
Paramahamsa: In India they don't grow that big. They are very small.
Prabhupada: Nobody takes care. The man also grows very small. There is no food, there is no soil. Poverty lives. Daridra-dosa guna-nase, when a person becomes poverty-stricken, all his quality goes away. He might have very good qualification but if... [break] Unfortunately, being misguided, this position of opulence, they are misusing it, and therefore becoming hippies. Simply misusing it. Instead of utilizing the position for development of Krsna consciousness, they are misusing it. So timely the movement has come to your country. Just try to apply in your practical life, preach all over the world, at least all over your own country. Here also, the Australians, they have got opulence. Try to relieve them. You are American or Australian?
Jayadharma: I'm an Australian, Prabhupada.
Paramahamsa: Australian, he says.
Prabhupada: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preach. There is good potency in your country. You are also not poverty. Krsna says, imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. Rajarsi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bungees understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them. Poverty-stricken man cannot under... But there is no bar, there is no hindrance. But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise why Krsna says imam rajarsayo viduh? And He instructed first to the sun-god. He is not ordinary person. He instructed later on to Arjuna. He is not ordinary person. Because one important person learns the science, he will preach it all over the earth. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has directly said they are not ordinary persons. So unless one is materially not ordinary, he cannot preach. All the Gosvamis, they were coming from respectable... And where Gaudiya Matha came? These are third-class men, no position in their past life.
Paramahamsa: Most of them just came from the villages.
Prabhupada: That's all. Uneducated, half-educated, poor, poverty-stricken. They could not do anything. Some of our Godbrothers I have beat them. (Like Tirtha) (indistinct). In his previous life he had a big, big business organization. So therefore he has been able to organize. They will admit. They are coming from some third-class status of life. This is not tripe, this is fact.
Paramahamsa: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs, very expert.
Prabhupada: Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's... Sri-caitanya-mano 'bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale, svayam rupa gosvami. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Rupa Gosvami. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department.
Paramahamsa: It's very difficult in Kali-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen...
Prabhupada: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rupa Gosvami was converted? Because the expert man... That person was Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming, how these politicians were coming?
Paramahamsa: Because you're the expert.
Prabhupada: It is not just we. You have to become expert to convert another expert. If you are not experienced, how you can convert others?
Paramahamsa: Is it true that you will end up converting people according to your own..., in other words, you convert people of your own caliber?
Prabhupada: Not own caliber, any caliber. That requires expert management.
Paramahamsa: But if you become high quality or high class, then automatically you attract that type of person.
Prabhupada: Yes. That you can do. You American people, you can do. That I am instructing. You can do. And actually, because some of you will cooperate the movement is going on. Therefore I came to America. When I found that in India no intelligent boys were coming, then I decided, "Let me go to America."
Paramahamsa: Still, even after you went to America and brought back so many European and American disciples, still the Indians are so slow to come and join.
Prabhupada: Because they have been... The disease is very chronic. They are not opulent. That diagnosis already given. They have become poverty-stricken. So daridra-dosa guna nase. Although they are born in India, they have got many qualification, due to this poverty-stricken position, they... Their first business is how to... Because they have got family attachment, so they cannot sacrifice. They will work very, very hard. You have seen how they are going to office, how..., because they have got the responsibility of family. That is Indians another feature. They take family responsibility. In your country there is no such thing. There is no family. There is no family responsibility. In India still that old tradition is going on. Therefore they cannot sacrifice the family responsibility, although they are willing. And the whole thing is it is due to poverty-stricken position. They have got family responsibilities. They think, "If I go, then whole family will starve. How can I go?" That is the exact position. And to come to that stage, that "Let my family starve, I don't mind," that is very higher stage. That is sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], "Oh, no responsibility, simply I have got respons..." That is not ordinary stage. You cannot expect these things from ordinary man.
Jayadharma: A person may see somebody do that, may think that they're irresponsible.
Prabhupada: Yes, escaping, so many accusations. But with all these accusations one can do that. There is no harm. But that position is not for all.
Paramahamsa: Due to that poverty-stricken condition, if someone does come to us, they usually want to get something from us.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes. You find out this verse, tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer [SB 1.5.17]. Find out first the index.
Paramahamsa: First Canto. Yellow. Yellow.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here, here. Find out this verse: tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi, yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim...
Amogha:
tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer
bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim
ko vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah
[SB 1.5.17]
"Translation: One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything."
Prabhupada: That's it. They are thinking, "I am doing my duty," but they do not gain anything. And a person doesn't care for any responsibility; he comes to Krsna consciousness. He gains something. Even if he falls down in immature stage, he gains something. But other man, he is doing his duty very nicely, but he is gaining nothing. You should read the purport.
Paramahamsa: "As far as the duties of mankind are concerned, there are innumerable duties. Every man is duty-bound not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists, etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good. But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment, and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Maharaja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly, Citraketu also fell down due to his offenses at the feet of Siva. But in spite of all this, the stress is given here to surrendering unto the lotus feet of the Lord, even if there is a chance of falling down, because even though one falls down from the prescribed duties of devotional service, he will never forget the lotus feet of the Lord. Once engaged in the devotional service of the Lord, one will continue the service in all circumstances. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that even a small quantity of devotional service can save one from the most dangerous position. There are many instances of such examples in history. Ajamila is one of them. Ajamila in his early life was a devotee, but in his youth he fell down. Still, he was saved by the Lord at the end."
Prabhupada: Even by sentiment one comes to Krsna consciousness, he is not loser; he is gainer. And if one person does not come to Krsna consciousness, he does his duty very nicely, he gains nothing.
Paramahamsa: Due to the so many rascal commenters on the Bhagavad-gita, in India all the Indians have a conception that the perfection of human life is to simply execute one's karma or to do his duty to his family, etc, and therefore they're wasting their time in this way and completely neglecting devotional service. Hare Krsna. [break]
Prabhupada: You bring so many varieties of food: And my duty is to eat.
Paramahamsa: Yes. So...
Prabhupada: So now let me perform my duty. (end)
Prabhupada: Then why does he say?
Paramahamsa: But this whole universe -- we cannot compare the whole universe with any machine created by man.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Why you bring man? This machine is created and being operated by God.
Paramahamsa: Well, we don't have any experience of such a machine.
Prabhupada: Huh? What do you mean by machine. First of all define what is your idea of machine. Just like the other day we saw, we saw the Thompson place, being printed, being collected, and so many things are being done. It is like this. By machine the seasonal changes are going on, the sun is rising, the moon is rising, the water in the ocean, the waves are there. Everything, machine working. It is machine. Everything being systematically done. Such a big ocean, vast water, it is just on the brink, no more. It is so organized. The sun is rising exactly in time, astronomically. The astronomical watch is one ten-thousandth part of a second. It is so accurate. You'll find everything is going on. [break] Today is ekadasi, eleventh day of the moon, the moon shall be like this. There one can see the moon and he can calculate. "Today is ekadasi." This is not machine? It is exactly, machine.
Paramahamsa: But the thing is this machine is so wonderful that it goes on without an operator.
Prabhupada: That is your dullness! You are rascal, you cannot understand how the machine is working, how big it is, that is your dullness. But it is a machine. Very big machine. You cannot understand -- that is not (argument) that this is not a machine. This is not very good argument, that "I cannot understand, therefore it is not a machine." But you see the idea machine is there already, everything is going on -- machine.
Srutakirti: It is such a good machine it doesn't require an operator.
Paramahamsa: That is the wonder of it.
Prabhupada: No. That is wrong. You cannot find out in your experience anywhere, any machine which is not being operated by a person. You cannot find it. Then why do you bring this idea that without operator it is going on. Where you get this idea? This is a false idea. Because you have no such experience. Where is the machine that "Here is a machine going on without any operator." Find out a machine.
Paramahamsa: We're trying. (laughter) There are some automatic machines.
Prabhupada: Automatic is at the hand of the operator.
Srutakirti: Someone must turn it on and off.
Prabhupada: Yes. There is no such automatic machine. It is impossible to prove.
Ganesa: But we can see the operator of these small machines, Srila Prabhupada, we cannot see the operator of this big machine.
Prabhupada: Have you seen the operator in the power house?
Ganesa: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Do you think the powerhouse is going on?
Paramahamsa: Well we could see him. We could go, we could drive there right now and see him.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can see. You can go to Krsna and see Him. That requires qualification.
Paramahamsa: That's not as easy.
Prabhupada: No, it is very easy. It is simply, as we are teaching our students, just become a devotee, offer namaskar, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto, always think of Him, and you will go to Him. It is not at all difficult. Bahavo jnana-tapasa puta mad-bhavam agatah. Bahavo, many, did come to Me. How? Jnana-tapasa, by knowledge and tapasya, being purified, they come to Me. Krsna says. Why you are disappointed? You can go. Krsna is open. Te 'pi yanti param gatim. Striya sudra tatha vaisya, even the women, less intelligent, the sudra, vaisya, they can come. Where is the difficulty? Even if you are born very lowest, you can go. Krsna is open to everyone. Simply you become qualified. That's all. And what is the qualification? Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], just always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your respects to Me, and man-mana, worship Me. Four things. That... We are opening this temple (in Melbourne) for this purpose, that you always think of Him, you worship Him, you offer obeisances to Him, and become His devotee. And then? Mam evaisyasi asamsayah [Bg. 18.65], without a doubt you will come to Him. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty.
Paramahamsa: If the operator of the powerhouse, he is operating and running the powerhouse, but it's not really necessary that we go and see him. We can simply enjoy the facilities offered by the powerhouse.
Prabhupada: That's alright, but if you are intelligent enough, if you are a rascal fool, you cannot see, but if you are intelligent, then you'll be eager to: "Who is operating? Let me see?" That is the difference of intelligence. Dull, just like we read one story. One little boy he was beating on a drum. So, he became inquisitive, "Wherefrom the sound is coming? Somebody must be within it." He took a knife and cut it. This is intelligence. Wherefrom the sound is coming? He was beating-dum, dum, dum -- he became inquisitive. That is intelligence. A dull student-coming, that's all. And intelligent, he tries to (find out), that is intelligence. Inquisitive. Intelligent boy will always enquire, "What is this, father? What is this father? Wherefrom the sound is coming?" That is intelligence. So, if one is very dull -- just like cats and dogs, they cannot enquire. What is this machine? What is this behind? It is the human form of life -- these enquiries should come. Otherwise he remains a cat and dog.
Jayadharma: They say that they don't accept this body as a machine because they've never experienced a machine that can think, feel, and will for itself.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Paramahamsa: Well they say that this body is more complicated than any other machine because it can think, feel, and will, whereas other machines don't do that.
Prabhupada: But the thinking, feeling, the brain is there. If the... That is the particular machine, because the operator is within. That you cannot see. The thinking, feeling is coming from the operator. The soul is there, dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. That these rascals cannot understand, that the thinking, feeling, that is of the operator, not of the machine. Is that clear or not? The operator is within. So the thinking, feeling, as you were asking, that is not of the machine, but of the operator, the soul.
Ganesa: Just like the child, Srila Prabhupada, who was trying to find the sound within the drum, the material scientists are trying to find out the cause and effect of the material world. Is that not intelligence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not reached the ultimate goal.
Paramahamsa: But they are trying.
Prabhupada: They are trying. That is admitted. But, they are concluding that there is no operator. That is their foolishness, because they have failed to find out. They have to go further, further, and see, "Yes, there is operator." That is the final part of the... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam [Bg. 7.19]. So after many, many births of sincere inquiry, when he is actually intelligent, he will see, "Oh, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Here is Vasudeva. He is everything." That is stated. He'll enquire. Go on enquiring, life after life. And then he'll come to understand vasudevah-sa mahatma su-durlabhah. You did not read this verse? They will come, after much trouble, much enquiry, they will come to the same conclusion, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. But they'll waste time. That's all. When we say, "Here is operator," they will not take. But they'll waste time, and life after life laboring, one day they will come.
Jayadharma: Does that mean that everybody is ultimately on the way back home? Back to Godhead?
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone is enquiring, but according to his intelligence, perfection, he is making progress. Everyone. Everyone, because he is meant for that purpose. He has forgotten Krsna, and Krsna is the reservoir of all pleasure. He is trying to find out pleasure other than Krsna, therefore he is being baffled. Unless he comes to Krsna there is no pleasure. That he does not know.
Paramahamsa: We have a saying in the West that curiosity killed the cat.
Prabhupada: Another example as I gave, crying children, child, crying, crying, crying, crying. As soon as he is on the lap of his mother, immediately stops. Why? He can understand, "Now I have got the real thing." Other woman taking, he still continues crying. You have seen it? This is practical. But when the child comes to the lap of his own mother, he immediately stops. Mother also takes care, "My dear child, come." He sucks the breast and is satisfied.
Ganesa: So one day the material scientist after many, many births will come to understand Vasudeva or Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ganesa: They will become devotees.
Prabhupada: But that is their foolishness. We, people, Krsna conscious people say, "Here is your ultimate goal of this science. Take it." That they will not take. That is foolishness. They will come to the same point. But when you offer him, he will not take. That is less intelligent. [break]
Paramahamsa: You were saying that inquisitiveness is the...
Prabhupada: That is human life. That inquisitiveness cannot be found in cats and dogs. That is the difference between cats and dogs and human being. Human being, unless he becomes inquisitive for what is the ultimate source, he is not human being. All these people, 99.9 per cent people, they are not inquisitive. They are searching after some happiness, but they are not inquisitive what is the source of happiness. They are being baffled in the material world. They have, for happiness they have discovered this horseless carriage and so many things, but there is so much unhappiness also when the motor car is crashed between two and life is lost. They are not inquisitive that we have invented this machine for happiness, why this disaster? That intelligence is not. That is it. They are simply going on searching after, but when we say, "No, not in this way, come this way and you'll get happiness," They'll not. That is (inaudible).
Paramahamsa: But if a person becomes too much inquisitive, just like with the boy and the mrdanga, due to his inquisitiveness he ruined the mrdanga, and then he doesn't have any drum.
Prabhupada: That's alright. The drum can be purchased again, but he should be given credit because he is inquisitive. You can purchase another drum, it doesn't matter, but he gets the credit because he is inquisitive.
Ganesa: What about the scientists, Srila Prabhupada? They are very inquisitive, they are trying to find out the cause of the material world.
Prabhupada: That credit we give them. Just like this child. But the childishness is this, that when they are given correct information, they do not take it. (indistinct) If we say to the material scientists that "You are searching after this, here it is, Krsna, aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], I am the original source of everything." they will not accept. That is their foolishness.
Ganesa: They are very inquisitive, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: That credit is already given, but you are inquisitive for a certain thing, if the thing is offered, if you do not accept then you become foolish. Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19], Vasudeva, he'll come to that point, that Krsna is everything, but when you inform him before that here is the thing, he will not take. That is the foolishness.
Paramahamsa: You were saying everyone is inquisitive for happiness, but shouldn't that be purified? Shouldn't we give up all desire for happiness?
Prabhupada: No, no. Happiness is life. How you can give up?
Paramahamsa: But if we desire for happiness, then we are being selfish.
Prabhupada: Yes, but you do not know where you is your self... [break] ...sense. That is your foolishness. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31], they do not know. Everyone is selfish, everyone is self-interested. But he does not know how to fulfill it. That is foolishness.
Paramahamsa: But isn't it better to give up all ego altogether?
Prabhupada: Why? Why? That is Mayavadi philosophy. We make our ego purified. "I am servant of Krsna." That is wanted. Not that to make my egoism zero. That is Mayavada. They are disappointed, they think finish this egoism. It cannot be finished. Because you are individual soul, it cannot be finished. Simply it has to be purified. I am thinking Indian, you are thinking American. You are neither American neither Indian. We are all part and parcel of Krsna. Direct we have to come to that point. Not to falsely think that I am American, I am Indian, I am cat, I am dog. That has to be finished. But you'll come to the real egoism, that I am eternal servant of Krsna. That "I am" will go on. No that... They are thinking in a way to finish the "I am" or "I am the same." Wrong thing.
Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada, the material scientists are so inquisitive, yet they are leading lives like cats and dogs, how can they come to...?
Prabhupada: Yes, because they are wrongly directed. You are inquiring me, "Sir I want to such and such place." If that place is this way, if I say you go this way. You go this way. Then you'll be baffled, and you'll be unhappy. Wrong direction.
Paramahamsa: But we are taking some direction from...
Prabhupada: That's alright, but if you take wrong direction you'll be unhappy. Your destination will not be (reached).
Ganesa: So how can the scientists arrive at vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]?
Prabhupada: For that he has to take direction from Krsna. Krsna says the destination Himself. He comes and says, "Here is, I am the destination, come here." But if you don't take, that is your misfortune. The direction is here. The perfect director is there, but he's unfortunate -- he does not accept this. Therefore he is baffled. We are... Our propaganda is therefore, that you rascals, all blind leaders, rascals, don't try to lead. Take Krsna's instruction and lead. Then you'll be perfect. This is our propaganda. Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect, then (indistinct). Or enquiries must be there but if the answers or the leading is bad, then you have to (indistinct). So we should make our enquiry to Krsna, and take His direction.
Paramahamsa: But some people say that the Bhagavad-gita is the direction, and some people say that the Koran is the direction, some people...
Prabhupada: Some people. Many authorities say it is right, and that is your fortune or misfortune. As some people say that it is written by some man or something, then it is not perfect. There are many others also, they say it is perfect. Now it is your choice, whom you to follow. So that some people as they are against, there are for also. Now it is up to you to accept whom. It is up to you. We accept the direction of the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Caitanya. Their word is perfect. They take the direction of Gandhi or this man, that man. Both of them are taking direction, but when the direction is perfect, then you become perfect. If the direction is imperfect, you remain imperfect. That's all.
Ganesa: We can see from the results of those different directions.
Prabhupada: Yes. Results, phalena-pariciyate. That is required. Now there are so many Gandhi-ite students. They have also read Bhagavad-gita, and you have also read Bhagavad-gita. Find out the difference. That is the result.
Paramahamsa: We have heard that Gandhi was a great mahatma.
Prabhupada: You have heard. You have heard so many things. That mountain gave birth to a mouse. You have heard like that.
Paramahamsa: But Gandhi also read the Bhagavad-gita, and he made so many wonderful comments on the Gita.
Prabhupada: That wonderfulness is for the rascals and the fools. What wonderful he has done? He preached nonviolence, but he was killed by violence. That is his wonderful example. He preached the philosophy of nonviolence, which is impossible. Therefore Krsna killed him by violence. This is his wonderful. And his foolishness was proved, that there cannot be nonviolence. So he was a fool.
Paramahamsa: But he himself was nonviolent.
Prabhupada: Nonviol... That's alright, he was a fool. Therefore I say you cannot bring nonviolence in politics. There is no such history. Just like Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent. Krsna chastized him, that you are a foolish number one. So... This is to bring a horse before a cart. Politics and nonviolence, it is incompatible. It is not possible. And he did it. Therefore he was a fool. Just like if you want to cook without fire. Is it possible?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupada: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, "Now I shall cook without fire." You are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Actually he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence, for thirty years, thirty-five years he struggled. When Subash Bose introduced violence, they were forced out. This is politics. Politics and nonviolence (incompatible). There is no history in the world that politics has been successful without violence, and he introduced this. So how much foolish he was, you can understand. It is same thing like that, if somebody says, "I'll cook without any. I shall scientifically do that a man can give birth to a child." There is no history, and if I say, "Now I shall do it. I shall see that equal rights. As a woman is giving birth to a child, the man will also will give child." These things are foolishness. This is not intelligence. The women are claiming equal rights. So, stop giving birth to a child? Then equal rights. Can it be possible? The man and woman unite, but the woman becomes pregnant, not the man. And if somebody says, now the man will become pregnant, is it not foolishness?
Paramahamsa: But they have made a way so that the women also don't have to become pregnant. This contraceptive, and...
Prabhupada: This is another foolishness. (indistinct) another... [break] This unnatural thing. [break] What is this insignia?
Srutakirti: That is Ford's insignia.
Prabhupada: Ford? This is Ford?
Srutakirti: This is a Ford?
Ganesa: LTD.
Ganesa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Krsna consciousness then, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. [break] ...in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.
Paramahamsa: But we have seen Lord Buddha, he conquered all of India with ahimsa, nonviolence, Lord Buddha.
Prabhupada: Lord Buddha was not a politician.
Paramahamsa: But he conquered India. He became the most...
Prabhupada: That is another thing. He conquered India. If he con-quered India, why he is driven out of India? Nobody is Buddhist now in India. And in Japan, nearly also halfway, so that is (indistinct). Buddha's nonviolence and Gandhi's nonviolence is different.
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Gandhi's nonviolence all rascaldom because he was dealing in politics. Buddha never entered in politics. So how you can compare with Buddha? His activities are different. His activity of false vibration(?), to stop all kinds of miseries of material world. That was his philosophy. He never dealt in politics. Although he was a king's son, he never dealt in politics. You cannot... This is foolishness. We do not know. We do not study what is Buddha's position, what is Gandhi's position.
Paramahamsa: But still, everyone in India respects Gandhi so much. They have statues and everything.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. He was a good gentleman. He was very humble, meek. Because you have got some fault, that does not mean you have no qualities. That is another thing. But if you deal wrongly with something, then you must be called a foolish man. You may have very good qualities, but if you do not know how to deal with business, then you are foolish. He was mainly engaged in politics, but he did not know how to deal with politics. He was reading Bhagavad-gita and he was misleading people that in the Bhagavad-gita there is nonviolence. Just see. Because Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent the whole Bhagavad-gita was taught to him, how to become violent, and this rascal said that in the Bhagavad-gita there is nonviolence. It is not false? So a man preaching falsehood, is he a gentleman? Or he is a right man?
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: So that is his position. Either he is a foolish rascal or he is not a gentleman, falsely preaching Bhagavad-gita. That is his position. If you do not know a subject matter, why do you talk about it? Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, you have no science. Similarly, here is a tape recorder, I do not know how the machine is working. If I talk about it authoritatively is it not my foolishness? I can talk about Bhagavad-gita or something else, but that does mean I know everything about this machine? But he did it like this. He was dealing in politics, and he took up as a mahatma, a religious man. That was his cheating.
Paramahamsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say...
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled. That is not very difficult. Just like from Russia, nobody is communist. But it is going on -- the Russia is communist country. I have studied thoroughly. Nobody is communist. Maybe a few only. But it is going on by propaganda that Russia is a communist country. The people in general, they are forced to accept it. That book was written by some man, terrorism. It is terrorism. That's it. By force. Nobody accepts this communist philosophy, I have studied. (everyone gets out of car) They were very, very unhappy. The young man cannot go out of the country. Just see. Restricted. How much uncomfortable he is feeling. Especially in European countries, the young men, they want to go. But they will not allow. They will not allow anything to read except Lenin's literature. What is this? Simply suppressing. Everyone is unhappy. Which way? This way? This is their position. I have seen it directly. And as soon as one is suspected that he is doing otherwise, he will be sent to some unknown camp. Nobody knows where he has gone.
Paramahamsa: Just like they had some people who came to Russia to start some Buddhist thing, and then they were sent away to some camp, concentration camp.
Prabhupada: Never seen again.
Paramahamsa: No one has seen them.
Prabhupada: Just see. This is their... It is the most fallen country. No freedom. No freedom at all. Horrible country.
Ganesa: Why don't the people revolt if they're so unhappy?
Prabhupada: Yes, they are revolting, but they are now so much suppressed they cannot... Sometimes there is revolt. Sometimes there is upheaval.
Paramahamsa: Not a big upheaval because they are terrorized. They are afraid that if they revolt, then they...
Prabhupada: They will be killed.
Paramahamsa: Yeah, the government will come out and just shoot them all.
Prabhupada: Yes, all the Leninists and Stalinists, they kill. It is a country of terrorism. That's all. The government men, they are simply terrorists. That's all.
Paramahamsa: Just like in Cambodia they just, the new Communist government, they executed tens and thousands of people just recently.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Paramahamsa: People who were working for the old government. They just killed them all. So this what the people are afraid of.
Prabhupada: Yes. Terrorism. This Communism means terrorism. (aside:) Thank you.
Amogha: I have a garland, but it's not finished. Almost...
Prabhupada: Communism means terrorism. That I have seen. I have studied personally. By threat, by pressure, that's all. Nobody is communist in Russia.
Jayadharma: Is the whole world going to become Communist, Prabhupada? Or is the whole world going to become Krsna cons...
Prabhupada: Nobody is Communist, but if the demons are powerful, they will declare.
Paramahamsa: They will introduce it.
Prabhupada: They will not introduce; they will declare like that, falsely. That's all.
Paramahamsa: Even in some countries where Communism has a very light influence, like in Thailand there's a little bit of Communist influence, when they had a student revolt, the government came in with tanks and machine guns and immediately killed about three thousand students.
Prabhupada: In Thailand?
Paramahamsa: Yes. In Bangkok. That was about two years ago.
Prabhupada: Oh, just see.
Paramahamsa: So the people are very afraid to cause any upheaval. They are afraid that immediately the government will just come and kill them. 'Cause the government has all the weapons. They have the tanks and the guns and everything. And the normal people, they don't have any weapons.
Prabhupada: This is the age of Kali-yuga. Therefore the only shelter is Krsna. There is no other way. In India it's practically dwindling. Now there is no reason they are not sanctioning our temple. They do not give any reason. "No!" Why "No"? "We don't give any reason." And "Kirtana is nuisance, nuisance." They are doing that already.
Srutakirti: Srila Prabhupada? For breakfast just fruits?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Srutakirti: Milk?
Prabhupada: No. You can... Cashew and ginger. And you make, what is called, channa. In the lunch make cheese. Cheese, cheese. Fry it, and make preparation.
Srutakirti: Tomato and cheese?
Prabhupada: Tomato, cheese, potato. Yes. And fried peanuts? And salad, fruit. By force... Communism is going on, by force. It is the result of sinful life.
Paramahamsa: They're put into that circumstance.
Prabhupada: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely, and now, by nature... Just like this child killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering. He will be killed. The nature's reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business. Now he is being killed. That is nature's law.
Paramahamsa: The person who doesn't know, he thinks that the child is innocent...
Prabhupada: Innocent child. He's not innocent. He is sinful. He is being, what is called, chastised. Svakarma-phala-rupa-jiva. That is the word, svakarma. One suffers... (aside:) You can sit down here, just like... Everyone suffers the reaction of his own work. Svakarma-phala-rupa-jiva. Because he is a child, he takes sympathy, "Oh, such a small child is being killed." We take it like that. It is that he is the potent criminal. Now he is being punished.
Paramahamsa: You were saying with all these wars. The people that are being killed are simply...
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore those who are in high standard, they do not take anything as wrong. Everyone is suffering his own reaction. Then bhaktas, they think, tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam [SB 10.14.8]. When a devotee is in trouble, he thinks that "I am suffering for my past deeds. [break] ...me." That is a devotee's attitude. "Let me do my business, chant Hare Krsna." And then he is sure. Such person is assured to come back. He doesn't care for all this suffering. He thinks, "I am suffering for my past deeds. That's all. Why shall I bother myself? Let me do my present duty, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna." That is the first-class position. He is assured. In spite of all material difficulties, if he goes on with chanting, then his chance is first. That is stated. Daya-bhak. Daya-bhak means he inherits God's property as the son's inherits the father's property. Daya-bhak. So we should be callous with all these political, social... We should simply go on. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was callous. Family affairs, wife's responsibility, for mother's responsibility for... Nothing. Simply chant Hare Krsna. Kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. Even didn't care for anything, no responsibility. "My only business is chanting." That is... You preach for some time. Then you simply engage in chanting. Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Krsna consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. Except -- this is the clear and simple truth -- except chanting Hare Krsna mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Krsna mantra. This is preaching. That has been shown by all the disciples of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All the Gosvamis, Haridasa Thakura and others, only did that, how to develop Krsna consciousness, no other business. That is sannyasa. He has no other business. To preach Krsna consciousness, to practice Krsna consciousness, to convince Krsna consciousness, that's all, no other business. We don't take part in politics, sociology, and mental speculation, "science," or so on, so on, all nonsense. We reject, all kicked out. That is the perfection. It is simply waste of time. These are all superficial. Just like waves in the sea. Where is the meaning? The waves are going on. Oh, very nice. You collected all these flowers?
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupada: Great service.
Amogha: From the public gardens. There is a big public garden.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Amogha: The government plants for the city to look nice.
Prabhupada: But you are stealing.
Amogha: No, not from anyone's house.
Paramahamsa: From the government.
Prabhupada: Very, very nice flowers. Such a big rose I have never seen.
Paramahamsa: In India they don't grow that big. They are very small.
Prabhupada: Nobody takes care. The man also grows very small. There is no food, there is no soil. Poverty lives. Daridra-dosa guna-nase, when a person becomes poverty-stricken, all his quality goes away. He might have very good qualification but if... [break] Unfortunately, being misguided, this position of opulence, they are misusing it, and therefore becoming hippies. Simply misusing it. Instead of utilizing the position for development of Krsna consciousness, they are misusing it. So timely the movement has come to your country. Just try to apply in your practical life, preach all over the world, at least all over your own country. Here also, the Australians, they have got opulence. Try to relieve them. You are American or Australian?
Jayadharma: I'm an Australian, Prabhupada.
Paramahamsa: Australian, he says.
Prabhupada: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preach. There is good potency in your country. You are also not poverty. Krsna says, imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. Rajarsi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bungees understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them. Poverty-stricken man cannot under... But there is no bar, there is no hindrance. But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise why Krsna says imam rajarsayo viduh? And He instructed first to the sun-god. He is not ordinary person. He instructed later on to Arjuna. He is not ordinary person. Because one important person learns the science, he will preach it all over the earth. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has directly said they are not ordinary persons. So unless one is materially not ordinary, he cannot preach. All the Gosvamis, they were coming from respectable... And where Gaudiya Matha came? These are third-class men, no position in their past life.
Paramahamsa: Most of them just came from the villages.
Prabhupada: That's all. Uneducated, half-educated, poor, poverty-stricken. They could not do anything. Some of our Godbrothers I have beat them. (Like Tirtha) (indistinct). In his previous life he had a big, big business organization. So therefore he has been able to organize. They will admit. They are coming from some third-class status of life. This is not tripe, this is fact.
Paramahamsa: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs, very expert.
Prabhupada: Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's... Sri-caitanya-mano 'bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale, svayam rupa gosvami. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Rupa Gosvami. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department.
Paramahamsa: It's very difficult in Kali-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen...
Prabhupada: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rupa Gosvami was converted? Because the expert man... That person was Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming, how these politicians were coming?
Paramahamsa: Because you're the expert.
Prabhupada: It is not just we. You have to become expert to convert another expert. If you are not experienced, how you can convert others?
Paramahamsa: Is it true that you will end up converting people according to your own..., in other words, you convert people of your own caliber?
Prabhupada: Not own caliber, any caliber. That requires expert management.
Paramahamsa: But if you become high quality or high class, then automatically you attract that type of person.
Prabhupada: Yes. That you can do. You American people, you can do. That I am instructing. You can do. And actually, because some of you will cooperate the movement is going on. Therefore I came to America. When I found that in India no intelligent boys were coming, then I decided, "Let me go to America."
Paramahamsa: Still, even after you went to America and brought back so many European and American disciples, still the Indians are so slow to come and join.
Prabhupada: Because they have been... The disease is very chronic. They are not opulent. That diagnosis already given. They have become poverty-stricken. So daridra-dosa guna nase. Although they are born in India, they have got many qualification, due to this poverty-stricken position, they... Their first business is how to... Because they have got family attachment, so they cannot sacrifice. They will work very, very hard. You have seen how they are going to office, how..., because they have got the responsibility of family. That is Indians another feature. They take family responsibility. In your country there is no such thing. There is no family. There is no family responsibility. In India still that old tradition is going on. Therefore they cannot sacrifice the family responsibility, although they are willing. And the whole thing is it is due to poverty-stricken position. They have got family responsibilities. They think, "If I go, then whole family will starve. How can I go?" That is the exact position. And to come to that stage, that "Let my family starve, I don't mind," that is very higher stage. That is sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], "Oh, no responsibility, simply I have got respons..." That is not ordinary stage. You cannot expect these things from ordinary man.
Jayadharma: A person may see somebody do that, may think that they're irresponsible.
Prabhupada: Yes, escaping, so many accusations. But with all these accusations one can do that. There is no harm. But that position is not for all.
Paramahamsa: Due to that poverty-stricken condition, if someone does come to us, they usually want to get something from us.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes. You find out this verse, tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer [SB 1.5.17]. Find out first the index.
Paramahamsa: First Canto. Yellow. Yellow.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here, here. Find out this verse: tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi, yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim...
Amogha:
tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer
bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim
ko vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah
[SB 1.5.17]
"Translation: One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything."
Prabhupada: That's it. They are thinking, "I am doing my duty," but they do not gain anything. And a person doesn't care for any responsibility; he comes to Krsna consciousness. He gains something. Even if he falls down in immature stage, he gains something. But other man, he is doing his duty very nicely, but he is gaining nothing. You should read the purport.
Paramahamsa: "As far as the duties of mankind are concerned, there are innumerable duties. Every man is duty-bound not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists, etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good. But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment, and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Maharaja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly, Citraketu also fell down due to his offenses at the feet of Siva. But in spite of all this, the stress is given here to surrendering unto the lotus feet of the Lord, even if there is a chance of falling down, because even though one falls down from the prescribed duties of devotional service, he will never forget the lotus feet of the Lord. Once engaged in the devotional service of the Lord, one will continue the service in all circumstances. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that even a small quantity of devotional service can save one from the most dangerous position. There are many instances of such examples in history. Ajamila is one of them. Ajamila in his early life was a devotee, but in his youth he fell down. Still, he was saved by the Lord at the end."
Prabhupada: Even by sentiment one comes to Krsna consciousness, he is not loser; he is gainer. And if one person does not come to Krsna consciousness, he does his duty very nicely, he gains nothing.
Paramahamsa: Due to the so many rascal commenters on the Bhagavad-gita, in India all the Indians have a conception that the perfection of human life is to simply execute one's karma or to do his duty to his family, etc, and therefore they're wasting their time in this way and completely neglecting devotional service. Hare Krsna. [break]
Prabhupada: You bring so many varieties of food: And my duty is to eat.
Paramahamsa: Yes. So...
Prabhupada: So now let me perform my duty. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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