July 13, 1974
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Prabhupada:But what is there?
Christianity, there is nothing. Simply some dry words. And actually, they're
seeing, nobody's coming to the church. So in this way, if they some, relish
something better, then whatever is there, that will be finished, also. Therefore
in London we wanted to purchase a church.Bali Mardana: A big
cathedral.
Prabhupada: Ah. And they said, "We shall burn it down; still, we shall not give to Bhaktivedanta Swami." They said like that.
Bahulasva: Rascals.
Prabhupada: "We shall burn it down." They are seeing practically. After all, they are businessmen. "Shopkeeper's nation." They see practically that if such kind of movements go on... People are already, have no interest in the church. In Chicago, they wrote "American Hindus." They wrote in the paper. Then Hindu, Hindu religion will be prominent.
Bahulasva: The Catholic Church is a very wealthy institution, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bahulasva: The Catholic Church is very wealthy. They don't want to lose their...
Prabhupada: So what will wealth do? If it does not appeal to the people, what wealth will do? In Chicago also, the Christians came with some wooden signboard. You have seen?
Bali Mardana: No, I didn't see.
Prabhupada: "It is through Christ. It is through..." They were showing me. So that has been criticized by the newspapermen, that "Nobody cares for you." (laughter) Yes.
Bali Mardana: In New York also, we have to do negotiations very secretly because if they find out, they would not want to sell to us. They would be afraid.
Prabhupada: Oh, New York, there was Ratha-yatra?
Bali Mardana: No, no. For purchasing the church.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Bali Mardana: They're also afraid that we will take over.
Prabhupada: But that is not yet finished.
Bali Mardana: Well, it is going on now. The one building is finished. Other building is still... Until we are living there...
Prabhupada: That, one Japanese gentleman wrote in a paper that "This Movement, as it growing fast, within ten years the whole world will become Hindu ."
Bali Mardana: Jaya. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: So even it is as it is, they may take in palanquin, but there must be a protest meeting continuously. Protest meeting and the Indians should approach the Ambassador that, "Represent our case to the Queen that Hindus are being harassed." This should be organized.
Bali Mardana: And also newspaper.
Prabhupada: Also newspaper. There must be...
Bali Mardana: They can make advertisements in the newspaper.
Prabhupada: Yes. That "On certain plea only, they have stopped our most important ceremony." In this way agitation must go on. And our men, those who took part in political agitation, they should go there and speak everywhere, that "It is religious discrimination."
Bali Mardana: They should have a protest meeting in front of the Parliament building, with signs.
Prabhupada: Protest meeting must be there. How to organize? At least, a protest meeting should be done in such a way that the whole world may know that the British Government stopped the yearly Ratha-yatra ceremony of the Hindus. That should be organized. What can be done? You are not very strong GBC's. There must be vehement protest meeting.
Bali Mardana: They can protest in front of Downing Street, in front of the Prime Minister's residence.
Prabhupada: Yes, protest meeting, go on, organize. Go, all of you. What is the talking here? They have seen that the movement is growing more important. So this is discrimination. In England the Church is very strong. They have organized like this. You quote the publication, "There is no alarm." Of course, it is on the plea of police protest, police objection. The police objection means one's religious ceremony should be stopped? What is this? Simply for some technical mistake, now they can warn that "You must do it. Otherwise it will be stopped." How is that? No. That means this is police government? Does it mean it is police government?
Bali Mardana: Police state.
Prabhupada: Police state? And why they are declaring Commonwealth and, British Commonwealth. So if it is governed by the police, how it is Commonwealth? There should be very strong agitation. And all the Hindus will join. So who will organize it? Don't make it childish. It is very serious. (pause) Police should have taken task when the rules were broken by Mahadeva. Why they did not take action in that time? They did not say anything. Police, if there is discrepancy, violation of the rules, they should have taken immediate action. Why they did not take? Now they have manufactured by conspiracy that "This movement should be stopped. Now take this plea." This is going on.
Bali Mardana: They could even have been paid off.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bali Mardana: Perhaps they were also paid off to stop it.
Prabhupada: Paid off or not paid off, it doesn't matter. But actually it is stopped. And if we simply cede, then there is no future hope of this movement. Better, in spite of their "No" order, we shall take the...
Bali Mardana: Take the ratha there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: Take it anyway?
Prabhupada: Yes. And let them be arrested. That is the real thing.
Bali Mardana: That is better.
Prabhupada: So you go all there, and perform this.
Bahulasva: Jaya Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. (pause) Make the ratha as it is and keep it on the Hyde Park. Don't move it, and hold meeting. Don't go the Trafalgar Square, but organize huge meeting there. Don't move it. "Under protest, we are not moving, but this is discrimination." Organize like that. Have the ratha standing there. Unless the order is given. And go on holding meeting. That will be the right answer.
Bali Mardana: They can bring the ratha in on a big truck.
Prabhupada: Ratha, we start from the Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square. So the ratha must be there. We'll not move. And simply hold meeting, unless the order is given. This is the right course.
Brahmananda: They should have a meeting until the order is given.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Until the order is given, we shall hold meeting here. Daily." And tell them that "It is, it is police government. Then we should, we should give up British connection." Agitate government that "It has become a police government." Best course will be like that, that "As usual, we shall keep the ratha there. We are not moving." And hold on, go on protest meeting, doing. And keep them there. Let them arrest and go to jail. That is the real effort. (pause) Or one thing do... Sati sartham samacaret. Therefore I wanted to start this politics. There say, "It is, it is our custom. Unless the ratha is there, there is no ceremony. So you have asked to palanquin. We shall make the ratha here, standing. And after holding our ceremony we shall take the Deity in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square. And go to the Trafalgar Square and hold meeting there. But the ratha must be there. It will not move. It will stand here. We shall take the Deities in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square." In this way, take police permission, and after going there, along with the ceremony, protest.
Brahmananda: In Trafalgar Square.
Prabhupada: Yes. Trafalgar Square.
Bali Mardana: They cannot object if the ratha is not moving.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all. That "You, objection... Our ratha will not move. It will simply stand there. The Deity will go in palanquin to Trafalgar Square and come back." They cannot object. But the ratha must be seen. And people must know that the rascal police government has stopped it. Go, everyone, and do it. The ratha must be exhibited, even though it does not move. And the Deity will be moving in palanquin. And come back again to the ratha. Is that all right?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Can you execute all this?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Do it. Ratha-yatra ratha is there, but the police did not allow to move. That's all right. We shall not move. The Deities, three palanquins, taken together, procession will go to the Trafalgar... That is, that is allowed. But the ratha must be exhibited. It will not move. So what is their objection. If the ratha stands in the same place, without movement, then they cannot have any objection. As they have passed, the Deities will move, and we'll come back again. Is it any... Eh? What objection can...?
Bali Mardana: That is approved for the route?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: Yes, they can walk with the palanquins over the route, to Trafalgar Square.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right.
Bali Mardana: That's approved?
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Ratha will not move. Then when we will get sanction, it will move. And for the sanction we must go on protesting. If you can take these steps, then do it. Otherwise, sleep. [break] ...with Hamsaduta.
Bali Mardana: I can talk to him.
Prabhupada: Yes. Talk with clear brain. The idea is given. [break] ...be able to do it alone, or we shall go. Or even if he does not say, you go and all organize. It is very important thing. And things are going not right there, and you shall sleep here. That is not good.
Bali Mardana: So shall we also make protests?
Prabhupada: No, first of all organize this. Then we shall protest.
Bali Mardana: Protest at the meeting.
Prabhupada: Hah. Don't say about protesting now.
Bali Mardana: Now.
Prabhupada: Take this, tactfully, that "All right, our ratha will not move. But this is our ceremony. The ratha will stand there."
Bali Mardana: So they should get written permission for the ratha to stand there.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Ratha will stand, will not move, unless you sanction. But it is the, one of the part of the ceremony. There must be ratha. How you can stop it?" And from the ratha the palanquin will go to the Trafalgar Square. As usual, we hold our ceremonies and come back. So what is the objection? And if they say, "No, you cannot even keep the ratha," that means there is conspiracy.
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: That means there is conspiracy. So we should be politicians also [break] ...somebody protested that "Your Krsna consciousness movement makes the people dull." And now, you have not seen the Vaisnava. There was two fight in the Indian history. One is Rama and Ravana, and one is Kuruksetra. And the hero is Vaisnava. We are going to produce such Vaisnavas, not these dull rascals, sitting down. We don't want these Vaisnavas, sitting down rascals. We want Arjuna or we want no one. That is Vaisnava. That is wanted.
Jayatirtha: It's time to go back. [break]
Prabhupada: ...that if we remain rascals, then that Gaurasundara's example will be followed. One day you'll again become crazy and close up everything and smoke. That's all. My Guru Maharaja used to say, prana arthe yanra sei hetu pracara. "One who has got life, he can preach." The dead man cannot preach. So you become with life, not like dead man. Without life... Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement.
Bahulasva: Jaya Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Now, I have given the solution. The ratha must be there. It may not move. That is another thing. It will stand. The Deity will move on palanquin accordingly. Take this sanction. And then, coming back, hold big meeting, protest meeting. Ratha must be there. It will not move. The movement will be by palanquin. I think... I don't think there is any difficulty. How there can be any objection? Reasonably? There cannot be any objection. Let the ratha stand there, and the Deity moves according to your sanction... What objection can be there?
Jayatirtha: Unless there's a conspiracy, there should be no objection.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That will disclose their conspiracy. "We abide by your order that without your order our ratha will not move, go to the Trafalgar... That's all right. You have allowed palanquin. That's accepted." Do like that, tactfully. First of all, take the sanction. In America, in... They have appreciated. That Reverend Powell. No, there is no objection anywhere. Why this rascal, falling-down nation, British, they're objecting? Apat-kale viparita-buddhi. They are falling down, they will commit offense and discrepancies more and more so that they will be nowhere. I think after this Queen, this monarchy there, the so-called monarchy will be also finished. Because her son, her husband, both of them are hippies. The Queen's husband and Queen's son, the Prince of Wales, both of them are hippies. So this monarchy will be also finished. (pause) What that Mahadeva is doing there in Africa?
Brahmananda: He's not doing very well.
Prabhupada: He's a rascal, and he was given in charge. Another rascal, Syamasundara. What he's doing, sitting and..., only?
Brahmananda: Just sitting and writing things that cannot be understood.
Prabhupada: Writing where?
Brahmananda: In the temple.
Prabhupada: And the other?
Brahmananda: He's doing all right.
Prabhupada: Let him stay there. Don't allow him to come out. Yes.
Brahmananda: He was planning to leave any day.
Prabhupada: No, he cannot go. Then we shall charge you all theft charges.
Brahmananda: Which?
Prabhupada: Theft charges. He's, he stolen money, and he has stolen something in Bombay also.
Jayatirtha: Prabhupada, they still have so many debts from last year.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: They still owe money for last year's festival, so many thousands.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is... And even somehow or other, he goes out, then he should not be allowed strictly either in our, this temple or that temple.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: Let him go to hell.
Brahmananda: Actually, he was planning to see Revatinandana Swami.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Brahmananda: He was planning to go and visit Revatinandana.
Prabhupada: Now, the Revatinandana and this man and Syamasundara is making a clique. I can understand. What they are planning, that also I know. But I don't wish to disclose it. So if these things come, then how this movement will go on? Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating, these are the general qualification of the western countries.
Jayatirtha: Sitting?
Prabhupada: Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating. These things are the general qualification of the western people. Do you admit or not?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: If they are, these things come within our movement, then it will not be succesful. Tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One has to become purified. Even sometimes we have to take... But that is for Krsna's. There must be now checking that all these rascals may not join and spoil the movement. You should not admit.
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: They can come and go.
Bali Mardana: We should not make a haven for rascals.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bali Mardana: We should not create a haven for rascals.
Prabhupada: Yes. So how it will be done unless you GBC members become very strong and with good brain? Now, first of all save this situation. This is only solution, as I have suggested, that "The ratha must be there. We are not moving." And take lawyers. And the Deity will be moved. And we'll come to the ratha and go back. That's all. And we shall abide by all the rules. That's all. They saw it that in open sunshine thousands of people, ten thousands of people or more than that, fifteen thousand people, they stood on the Trafalgar Square for three hours. And they do not go to the church. So they must have seen there is something. Otherwise, how people taken so much interest. And there is, actually.
Bali Mardana: Yes. Just like in the San Francisco paper they admitted, "This is the most popular festival."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. San Francisco also. Fifteen thousand people attended my lecture silently. So they are seeing now there is something in this movement, and if this movement, it is allowed to go on without any objection, then Christianity will be finished. That is the conspiracy behind it. That lecture is recorded? The, which I gave in the, that society of the priests and...
Satsvarupa: The fathers?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: Yes, I...
Prabhupada: So you can hear that lecture, how it was. They appreciated so much. We have no disrespect for Christianity. (pause) At least, expose our so-called Indian ambassador and others... Approach them, that "Help us. What is this? What for you are here?" Even they do not allow by agitation, make the movement very important. Make profit this side or that side. That is businessman. The businessman makes profit when the price is going down and when the price is going up. They make their profit. That is businessman. Just like our Tripurari, he goes on selling his book in any condition. He finds out some means how to sell in this condition. This is intelligence, how to deal in different circumstances and make profit. That is brain. And if you make condition, "If these conditions are there, then I can make business," that is foolishness.
Brahmananda: You told me that when I came from Pakistan to India. I was complaining how difficult it was, but you said that a businessman makes profit in any circumstances.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is business. They are... Police has no eyes to see that the Bala-Krishna (Guru Maharaji) is regularly cheating. Any man can understand.
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Prabhupada: There is no stoppage of that... Yes. And here, stoppage. Just see. It is clear conspiracy. It is not that police. Police cannot be so powerful that he can stop. If there was any discrepancy, why did not they take step that "You have done... You have violated the rules." They should have prosecuted us. Now, without saying anything at that time, now want to stop it.
Jayatirtha: It's just their tactic.
Prabhupada: It is tactic. They're factually seeing that "These people, they have brought some Jagannatha and thousands of people following it. And nobody's coming to our church?" It is very common sense thing. The church is being closed. And all the young men, they are joining. Not old men, old fools. No. All young, flourishing, young men are joining. So they want to stop it now. (pause) Take it. [break]
Madhukanta: ...regard, Srila Prabhupada, you said that we are making counter-propaganda against maya, and that maya will make propaganda very strong.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhukanta: So we must become very sincere devotees or...
Prabhupada: Unless we are very sincere, we cannot cope with maya. That is not possible. If you remain a servant of maya, you cannot conquer over maya. You must be very sincere servant of Krsna. Then you can conquer. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. It is clearly said. Otherwise you are subjected to the tricks of maya.
Bahulasva: Unless one surrenders to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Then you can get rid of maya's tricks. Otherwise, you may dress yourself like anything, but you are simply maya's servant. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung one... Ei ota kalir chela: "Here is another disciple of Kali." Nake tilaka galai mala. "He has got tilaka on the nose and mala, kanthi, also." Sahaja bhajana kache mamu sange lana pare bhalo: "And he's, he has become a Vaisnava by illicit sex." This is stated by Bhaktivinoda Thakura. "Here is a Kali's chela. He has dressed like a Vaisnava, but he is doing his bhajan with illicit sex." Sahaje bhajana kache mamu sange lana pare bhalo. You know? There is a class of sahajiyas?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnavas. Just like, dress like Rupa Gosvami, loincloth, and, but three dozen women behind him.
Bali Mardana: Yes, gopis.
Prabhupada: So Bhaktivinoda Thakura: "Here is a disciple of Kali. He has tilaka and he has kunti and he's doing this nonsense." Eita kalir chela. (pause)
Bahulasva: So the purport is that one must strictly follow the principles?
Prabhupada: You do not understand that?
Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: You are asking after twelve thousand years? I am speaking always that. And still you are questioning?
Bali Mardana: Should I call immediately or wait till after class?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bali Mardana: Should I call Hamsaduta immediately or wait until after class?
Prabhupada: That is, you use your discrimination. What I can say?
Krsna-kanti: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! (end)
Prabhupada: Ah. And they said, "We shall burn it down; still, we shall not give to Bhaktivedanta Swami." They said like that.
Bahulasva: Rascals.
Prabhupada: "We shall burn it down." They are seeing practically. After all, they are businessmen. "Shopkeeper's nation." They see practically that if such kind of movements go on... People are already, have no interest in the church. In Chicago, they wrote "American Hindus." They wrote in the paper. Then Hindu, Hindu religion will be prominent.
Bahulasva: The Catholic Church is a very wealthy institution, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bahulasva: The Catholic Church is very wealthy. They don't want to lose their...
Prabhupada: So what will wealth do? If it does not appeal to the people, what wealth will do? In Chicago also, the Christians came with some wooden signboard. You have seen?
Bali Mardana: No, I didn't see.
Prabhupada: "It is through Christ. It is through..." They were showing me. So that has been criticized by the newspapermen, that "Nobody cares for you." (laughter) Yes.
Bali Mardana: In New York also, we have to do negotiations very secretly because if they find out, they would not want to sell to us. They would be afraid.
Prabhupada: Oh, New York, there was Ratha-yatra?
Bali Mardana: No, no. For purchasing the church.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Bali Mardana: They're also afraid that we will take over.
Prabhupada: But that is not yet finished.
Bali Mardana: Well, it is going on now. The one building is finished. Other building is still... Until we are living there...
Prabhupada: That, one Japanese gentleman wrote in a paper that "This Movement, as it growing fast, within ten years the whole world will become Hindu ."
Bali Mardana: Jaya. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: So even it is as it is, they may take in palanquin, but there must be a protest meeting continuously. Protest meeting and the Indians should approach the Ambassador that, "Represent our case to the Queen that Hindus are being harassed." This should be organized.
Bali Mardana: And also newspaper.
Prabhupada: Also newspaper. There must be...
Bali Mardana: They can make advertisements in the newspaper.
Prabhupada: Yes. That "On certain plea only, they have stopped our most important ceremony." In this way agitation must go on. And our men, those who took part in political agitation, they should go there and speak everywhere, that "It is religious discrimination."
Bali Mardana: They should have a protest meeting in front of the Parliament building, with signs.
Prabhupada: Protest meeting must be there. How to organize? At least, a protest meeting should be done in such a way that the whole world may know that the British Government stopped the yearly Ratha-yatra ceremony of the Hindus. That should be organized. What can be done? You are not very strong GBC's. There must be vehement protest meeting.
Bali Mardana: They can protest in front of Downing Street, in front of the Prime Minister's residence.
Prabhupada: Yes, protest meeting, go on, organize. Go, all of you. What is the talking here? They have seen that the movement is growing more important. So this is discrimination. In England the Church is very strong. They have organized like this. You quote the publication, "There is no alarm." Of course, it is on the plea of police protest, police objection. The police objection means one's religious ceremony should be stopped? What is this? Simply for some technical mistake, now they can warn that "You must do it. Otherwise it will be stopped." How is that? No. That means this is police government? Does it mean it is police government?
Bali Mardana: Police state.
Prabhupada: Police state? And why they are declaring Commonwealth and, British Commonwealth. So if it is governed by the police, how it is Commonwealth? There should be very strong agitation. And all the Hindus will join. So who will organize it? Don't make it childish. It is very serious. (pause) Police should have taken task when the rules were broken by Mahadeva. Why they did not take action in that time? They did not say anything. Police, if there is discrepancy, violation of the rules, they should have taken immediate action. Why they did not take? Now they have manufactured by conspiracy that "This movement should be stopped. Now take this plea." This is going on.
Bali Mardana: They could even have been paid off.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bali Mardana: Perhaps they were also paid off to stop it.
Prabhupada: Paid off or not paid off, it doesn't matter. But actually it is stopped. And if we simply cede, then there is no future hope of this movement. Better, in spite of their "No" order, we shall take the...
Bali Mardana: Take the ratha there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: Take it anyway?
Prabhupada: Yes. And let them be arrested. That is the real thing.
Bali Mardana: That is better.
Prabhupada: So you go all there, and perform this.
Bahulasva: Jaya Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. (pause) Make the ratha as it is and keep it on the Hyde Park. Don't move it, and hold meeting. Don't go the Trafalgar Square, but organize huge meeting there. Don't move it. "Under protest, we are not moving, but this is discrimination." Organize like that. Have the ratha standing there. Unless the order is given. And go on holding meeting. That will be the right answer.
Bali Mardana: They can bring the ratha in on a big truck.
Prabhupada: Ratha, we start from the Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square. So the ratha must be there. We'll not move. And simply hold meeting, unless the order is given. This is the right course.
Brahmananda: They should have a meeting until the order is given.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Until the order is given, we shall hold meeting here. Daily." And tell them that "It is, it is police government. Then we should, we should give up British connection." Agitate government that "It has become a police government." Best course will be like that, that "As usual, we shall keep the ratha there. We are not moving." And hold on, go on protest meeting, doing. And keep them there. Let them arrest and go to jail. That is the real effort. (pause) Or one thing do... Sati sartham samacaret. Therefore I wanted to start this politics. There say, "It is, it is our custom. Unless the ratha is there, there is no ceremony. So you have asked to palanquin. We shall make the ratha here, standing. And after holding our ceremony we shall take the Deity in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square. And go to the Trafalgar Square and hold meeting there. But the ratha must be there. It will not move. It will stand here. We shall take the Deities in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square." In this way, take police permission, and after going there, along with the ceremony, protest.
Brahmananda: In Trafalgar Square.
Prabhupada: Yes. Trafalgar Square.
Bali Mardana: They cannot object if the ratha is not moving.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all. That "You, objection... Our ratha will not move. It will simply stand there. The Deity will go in palanquin to Trafalgar Square and come back." They cannot object. But the ratha must be seen. And people must know that the rascal police government has stopped it. Go, everyone, and do it. The ratha must be exhibited, even though it does not move. And the Deity will be moving in palanquin. And come back again to the ratha. Is that all right?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Can you execute all this?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Do it. Ratha-yatra ratha is there, but the police did not allow to move. That's all right. We shall not move. The Deities, three palanquins, taken together, procession will go to the Trafalgar... That is, that is allowed. But the ratha must be exhibited. It will not move. So what is their objection. If the ratha stands in the same place, without movement, then they cannot have any objection. As they have passed, the Deities will move, and we'll come back again. Is it any... Eh? What objection can...?
Bali Mardana: That is approved for the route?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: Yes, they can walk with the palanquins over the route, to Trafalgar Square.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right.
Bali Mardana: That's approved?
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Ratha will not move. Then when we will get sanction, it will move. And for the sanction we must go on protesting. If you can take these steps, then do it. Otherwise, sleep. [break] ...with Hamsaduta.
Bali Mardana: I can talk to him.
Prabhupada: Yes. Talk with clear brain. The idea is given. [break] ...be able to do it alone, or we shall go. Or even if he does not say, you go and all organize. It is very important thing. And things are going not right there, and you shall sleep here. That is not good.
Bali Mardana: So shall we also make protests?
Prabhupada: No, first of all organize this. Then we shall protest.
Bali Mardana: Protest at the meeting.
Prabhupada: Hah. Don't say about protesting now.
Bali Mardana: Now.
Prabhupada: Take this, tactfully, that "All right, our ratha will not move. But this is our ceremony. The ratha will stand there."
Bali Mardana: So they should get written permission for the ratha to stand there.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Ratha will stand, will not move, unless you sanction. But it is the, one of the part of the ceremony. There must be ratha. How you can stop it?" And from the ratha the palanquin will go to the Trafalgar Square. As usual, we hold our ceremonies and come back. So what is the objection? And if they say, "No, you cannot even keep the ratha," that means there is conspiracy.
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: That means there is conspiracy. So we should be politicians also [break] ...somebody protested that "Your Krsna consciousness movement makes the people dull." And now, you have not seen the Vaisnava. There was two fight in the Indian history. One is Rama and Ravana, and one is Kuruksetra. And the hero is Vaisnava. We are going to produce such Vaisnavas, not these dull rascals, sitting down. We don't want these Vaisnavas, sitting down rascals. We want Arjuna or we want no one. That is Vaisnava. That is wanted.
Jayatirtha: It's time to go back. [break]
Prabhupada: ...that if we remain rascals, then that Gaurasundara's example will be followed. One day you'll again become crazy and close up everything and smoke. That's all. My Guru Maharaja used to say, prana arthe yanra sei hetu pracara. "One who has got life, he can preach." The dead man cannot preach. So you become with life, not like dead man. Without life... Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement.
Bahulasva: Jaya Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Now, I have given the solution. The ratha must be there. It may not move. That is another thing. It will stand. The Deity will move on palanquin accordingly. Take this sanction. And then, coming back, hold big meeting, protest meeting. Ratha must be there. It will not move. The movement will be by palanquin. I think... I don't think there is any difficulty. How there can be any objection? Reasonably? There cannot be any objection. Let the ratha stand there, and the Deity moves according to your sanction... What objection can be there?
Jayatirtha: Unless there's a conspiracy, there should be no objection.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That will disclose their conspiracy. "We abide by your order that without your order our ratha will not move, go to the Trafalgar... That's all right. You have allowed palanquin. That's accepted." Do like that, tactfully. First of all, take the sanction. In America, in... They have appreciated. That Reverend Powell. No, there is no objection anywhere. Why this rascal, falling-down nation, British, they're objecting? Apat-kale viparita-buddhi. They are falling down, they will commit offense and discrepancies more and more so that they will be nowhere. I think after this Queen, this monarchy there, the so-called monarchy will be also finished. Because her son, her husband, both of them are hippies. The Queen's husband and Queen's son, the Prince of Wales, both of them are hippies. So this monarchy will be also finished. (pause) What that Mahadeva is doing there in Africa?
Brahmananda: He's not doing very well.
Prabhupada: He's a rascal, and he was given in charge. Another rascal, Syamasundara. What he's doing, sitting and..., only?
Brahmananda: Just sitting and writing things that cannot be understood.
Prabhupada: Writing where?
Brahmananda: In the temple.
Prabhupada: And the other?
Brahmananda: He's doing all right.
Prabhupada: Let him stay there. Don't allow him to come out. Yes.
Brahmananda: He was planning to leave any day.
Prabhupada: No, he cannot go. Then we shall charge you all theft charges.
Brahmananda: Which?
Prabhupada: Theft charges. He's, he stolen money, and he has stolen something in Bombay also.
Jayatirtha: Prabhupada, they still have so many debts from last year.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: They still owe money for last year's festival, so many thousands.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is... And even somehow or other, he goes out, then he should not be allowed strictly either in our, this temple or that temple.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: Let him go to hell.
Brahmananda: Actually, he was planning to see Revatinandana Swami.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Brahmananda: He was planning to go and visit Revatinandana.
Prabhupada: Now, the Revatinandana and this man and Syamasundara is making a clique. I can understand. What they are planning, that also I know. But I don't wish to disclose it. So if these things come, then how this movement will go on? Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating, these are the general qualification of the western countries.
Jayatirtha: Sitting?
Prabhupada: Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating. These things are the general qualification of the western people. Do you admit or not?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: If they are, these things come within our movement, then it will not be succesful. Tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One has to become purified. Even sometimes we have to take... But that is for Krsna's. There must be now checking that all these rascals may not join and spoil the movement. You should not admit.
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: They can come and go.
Bali Mardana: We should not make a haven for rascals.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bali Mardana: We should not create a haven for rascals.
Prabhupada: Yes. So how it will be done unless you GBC members become very strong and with good brain? Now, first of all save this situation. This is only solution, as I have suggested, that "The ratha must be there. We are not moving." And take lawyers. And the Deity will be moved. And we'll come to the ratha and go back. That's all. And we shall abide by all the rules. That's all. They saw it that in open sunshine thousands of people, ten thousands of people or more than that, fifteen thousand people, they stood on the Trafalgar Square for three hours. And they do not go to the church. So they must have seen there is something. Otherwise, how people taken so much interest. And there is, actually.
Bali Mardana: Yes. Just like in the San Francisco paper they admitted, "This is the most popular festival."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. San Francisco also. Fifteen thousand people attended my lecture silently. So they are seeing now there is something in this movement, and if this movement, it is allowed to go on without any objection, then Christianity will be finished. That is the conspiracy behind it. That lecture is recorded? The, which I gave in the, that society of the priests and...
Satsvarupa: The fathers?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: Yes, I...
Prabhupada: So you can hear that lecture, how it was. They appreciated so much. We have no disrespect for Christianity. (pause) At least, expose our so-called Indian ambassador and others... Approach them, that "Help us. What is this? What for you are here?" Even they do not allow by agitation, make the movement very important. Make profit this side or that side. That is businessman. The businessman makes profit when the price is going down and when the price is going up. They make their profit. That is businessman. Just like our Tripurari, he goes on selling his book in any condition. He finds out some means how to sell in this condition. This is intelligence, how to deal in different circumstances and make profit. That is brain. And if you make condition, "If these conditions are there, then I can make business," that is foolishness.
Brahmananda: You told me that when I came from Pakistan to India. I was complaining how difficult it was, but you said that a businessman makes profit in any circumstances.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is business. They are... Police has no eyes to see that the Bala-Krishna (Guru Maharaji) is regularly cheating. Any man can understand.
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Prabhupada: There is no stoppage of that... Yes. And here, stoppage. Just see. It is clear conspiracy. It is not that police. Police cannot be so powerful that he can stop. If there was any discrepancy, why did not they take step that "You have done... You have violated the rules." They should have prosecuted us. Now, without saying anything at that time, now want to stop it.
Jayatirtha: It's just their tactic.
Prabhupada: It is tactic. They're factually seeing that "These people, they have brought some Jagannatha and thousands of people following it. And nobody's coming to our church?" It is very common sense thing. The church is being closed. And all the young men, they are joining. Not old men, old fools. No. All young, flourishing, young men are joining. So they want to stop it now. (pause) Take it. [break]
Madhukanta: ...regard, Srila Prabhupada, you said that we are making counter-propaganda against maya, and that maya will make propaganda very strong.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhukanta: So we must become very sincere devotees or...
Prabhupada: Unless we are very sincere, we cannot cope with maya. That is not possible. If you remain a servant of maya, you cannot conquer over maya. You must be very sincere servant of Krsna. Then you can conquer. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. It is clearly said. Otherwise you are subjected to the tricks of maya.
Bahulasva: Unless one surrenders to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Then you can get rid of maya's tricks. Otherwise, you may dress yourself like anything, but you are simply maya's servant. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung one... Ei ota kalir chela: "Here is another disciple of Kali." Nake tilaka galai mala. "He has got tilaka on the nose and mala, kanthi, also." Sahaja bhajana kache mamu sange lana pare bhalo: "And he's, he has become a Vaisnava by illicit sex." This is stated by Bhaktivinoda Thakura. "Here is a Kali's chela. He has dressed like a Vaisnava, but he is doing his bhajan with illicit sex." Sahaje bhajana kache mamu sange lana pare bhalo. You know? There is a class of sahajiyas?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnavas. Just like, dress like Rupa Gosvami, loincloth, and, but three dozen women behind him.
Bali Mardana: Yes, gopis.
Prabhupada: So Bhaktivinoda Thakura: "Here is a disciple of Kali. He has tilaka and he has kunti and he's doing this nonsense." Eita kalir chela. (pause)
Bahulasva: So the purport is that one must strictly follow the principles?
Prabhupada: You do not understand that?
Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: You are asking after twelve thousand years? I am speaking always that. And still you are questioning?
Bali Mardana: Should I call immediately or wait till after class?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bali Mardana: Should I call Hamsaduta immediately or wait until after class?
Prabhupada: That is, you use your discrimination. What I can say?
Krsna-kanti: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! (end)
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Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los
Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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