Death And Dreams

Los Angeles, June 3, 1976

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Ramesvara: Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Krsna has unlimited energies. Yesterday you were explaining in your garden to that priest that Krsna, He says, Krsna says, "I am the father of all living entities." And you were saying, "Who can challenge this or deny it?" Now someone can say that there is contradiction, if there is some contradiction in Krsna's statement, therefore...Prabhupada: Who can deny? Who can contradict this? That is my challenge. The contradiction is not valid. Who can contradict it? That is my challenge.
Ramesvara: Well, say in some philosophy...
Prabhupada: Just like a father, a real father can say, "I am the father." Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say "No, you are not father, he's father." No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced.
Ramesvara: No.
Prabhupada: Yes. Suppose real father says, "I am the father of this boy." Who will challenge it?
Ramesvara: Someone who does not believe my father.
Prabhupada: That means he's a rascal. But father cannot be changed. He does not know; he challenges, that's all. How the father can be changed? Father is one.
Ramesvara: We say that Krsna is all good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And then the materialist says, "If Krsna is all good, then how is there any evil?"
Prabhupada: Evil is you.
Ramesvara: But everything comes from Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything comes from.... Yes. If.... You have created a situation. So for your satisfaction, Krsna has given you the chance, but that is evil, what you have created.
Ramesvara: But I have this propensity because I am part of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. When you come under maya, you have got so many propensities. So as soon as you disobey Krsna, the maya is there. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare (Prema-vivarta), immediately. Just like darkness and light. As soon as you give up light, you come to darkness. There is no second alternative.
Ramesvara: Krsna is the friend of everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence?
Prabhupada: No, that is His.... Why not?
Ramesvara: Because it is not good for me.
Prabhupada: Then you are not perfectly Krsna's amsa. Krsna has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.
Ramesvara: But if it's not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Krsna give it to me anyway?
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore the demand is "You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good..." Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, "You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you all comforts."
Ramesvara: Krsna knows everything in the past, and everything in the future.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So when Krsna.... Krsna knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna's mercy.
Ramesvara: Even though it is bad for me.
Pusta Krsna: You say Krsna knows you are going to misuse your independence.
Ramesvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must.... Krsna is all-knowing.
Prabhupada: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the..., how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Krsna knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Krsna knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He's always.... Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence?
Pusta Krsna: So can you actually say that Krsna knows you'll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...he knows you will definitely misuse...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...you can use your independence properly, it's up to you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: But then that limits Krsna. If you say that Krsna did not know when I will misuse my indep.... or if I will...
Prabhupada: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence.
Ramesvara: But doesn't Krsna know if I will do it?
Prabhupada: Yes, because you are independent. That is the meaning.
Ramesvara: Marginal.
Prabhupada: What will the.... That will depend on.... And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he'll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition.
Ramesvara: But the lawyer doesn't...
Prabhupada: Why Krsna? Everyone knows. Suppose you have got this body; next body he's a dog. I can say you'll bark.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: What you'll do? That's all. What to speak of Krsna; I can say.
Pusta Krsna: That was Satsvarupa's question, Satsvarupa Maharaja's question.
Prabhupada: No, this is the answer. Krsna's position is always the same. He knows past, present and future.
Ramesvara: This is Karandhara's problem, this point of philosophy. He cannot understand it. His argument is that he is having so much trouble due to his sense attraction. And Krsna gave him the sense attraction, or Krsna gave him senses; now he is having trouble controlling his senses. But he argues that Krsna knows everything, so Krsna knew that he would have trouble controlling his senses; therefore why did Krsna give him senses?
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Ramesvara: He says Krsna is playing games.
Prabhupada: I have given you charge of this BBT, millions of dollars you are dealing, but it is not for your misuse. As soon as you misuse, that is your responsibility.
Ramesvara: Yes, but he says but still, you'll know that I'm going to misuse it.
Prabhupada: No. That Krsna knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that "Ramesvara is very good boy; let him be in charge." But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara's, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Krsna changed his position.
Ramesvara: He's so foolish, he blames...
Prabhupada: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Krsna's activities?
Ramesvara: That's the only answer.
Prabhupada: What Krsna is doing.... You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you'll suffer.
Ramesvara: His argument is that "I should never be allowed to misuse my independence."
Hari-sauri: There's no question of independence then.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly.
Ramesvara: He cannot understand that.
Prabhupada: He wants to become a machine.
Ramesvara: Yes, he'd rather be a machine and be in Krsna's service.
Prabhupada: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, "Come out." What to speak of you.
Hari-sauri: That's like an impersonalist. He doesn't want any individual existence.
Prabhupada: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. "I am everything." Therefore they are called mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15]. Mudha. He's being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says "I am God." He's becoming old, and he says that "I am God." Why you are becoming old? God is always young.
Ramesvara: He has another argument. He says that he's in the grip of maya.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So even though he wants to go back to Godhead, he cannot be freed from the influence of maya. Maya is keeping him.
Prabhupada: Unless you are fully surrender, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you cannot do it. Maya will not leave you.
Ramesvara: But in order to fully surrender, you have to be free from maya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Maya will keep you freed when you fully surrender. If you surrender to your wife and many women, maya will not give you.
Pusta Krsna: He's thinking freedom without Krsna.
Ramesvara: He says that maya keeps making him full of material desires.
Prabhupada: Yes, maya must keep you, must keep you, must keep you because you are not surrendering fully.
Ramesvara: Then he says that "As long as I have all these material urges, I cannot control them. The maya is insurmountable."
Prabhupada: No. Maya is not.... What maya is? Punishing, that's all.
Hari-sauri: The desire is ours; it's simply either Krsna or maya.
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to rectify your desires. That is bhakti.
Ramesvara: By chanting.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: How do you.... But then he says, "How do you develop the strength to keep chanting even when maya is making you so attracted?"
Prabhupada: That means your chanting is not pure. That is called aparadha. You are thinking that "I am chanting, I am purified," and finding out another woman, illicit sex. Then how you can be purified?
Hari-sauri: One argument a lot of them use is that, er,...
Prabhupada: No. It is prohibited, aparadha. If you chant with aparadha, offenses, then how you can be pure?
Hari-sauri: The process is to follow some rules and regulations, but they say, "How do you get the strength to follow the rules and regulations?"
Prabhupada: That is not your business, that is Krsna's business. You follow Krsna. If you cheat Krsna, then you'll be cheated. That's all. Krsna does not cheat you, but you create a situation to cheat yourself, and maya will make an arrangement so that you are cheated. This is maya's business.
Hari-sauri: So it's a question of honesty.
Prabhupada: Yes. You promise no illicit sex, no, before God, before spiritual master, before fire, and you play hypocrisy. So maya is not seeing that? How you can avoid? maya is always there. Yac caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam. You cannot escape the eyes of God in so many different agencies. And still He is personally sitting within your hearts. How you can escape? You may pretend to be a very great devotee, but the Person, Supreme, He is within yourself, He's seeing everything. No cheating with Him. Namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. "Oh, I am chanting Hare Krsna, so even I do something wrong, it will be adjusted." Adjusted, when you are sincere, by chance you have done something. That can be adjusted. But not intentionally. As soon as there is intentional cheating, that you'll have to suffer the effect.
Pusta Krsna: So someone who is in knowledge and commits sinful activity...
Prabhupada: Then he's...
Pusta Krsna: ...his position is very bad...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...compared to the innocent person, ignorant person.
Prabhupada: Yes. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14].
Ramesvara: But then again he argues like this, he says, "The living entity cannot do anything without the sanction of God. So I am desiring certain sinful activities, but why is Krsna sanctioning it?"
Prabhupada: Krsna does not sanction.
Ramesvara: Then how is it going on?
Prabhupada: But you insist, so Krsna, in disgust, says, "All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me." That's all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it?
Ramesvara: I never heard it.
Prabhupada: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: "No, don't touch." So, and he was.... So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that "Slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it. So he touched, "Tung." (sound imitation) Then I said, "Touch again?" "No!" (laughter) So it is like that.
Ramesvara: Oh. It is actually Krsna's mercy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: ...that He allows Him to feel the pain.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Purifies his desires.
Pusta Krsna: But he doesn't have to feel the pain if he's obedient.
Ramesvara: If he insists.
Prabhupada: He gives instruction. Just like I said, "Don't touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good." "No, no." "So all right, touch."
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that the more intelligent person can become obedient by hearing. The less intelligent person has to see, suffer.
Prabhupada: By practical experience. Dekhe sekhe thekhe sekhese. Tekhe sekhese(?) means he's a fool. Unless he comes to the actual position, he does not learn. And therefore sastra-caksus -- one who follows the sastra's instruction, he is safe. That is experienced already. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles

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© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

Evolutionary Suffering

Los Angeles, June 8, 1976

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Prabhupada: We have got experience that a child is coming from the womb of the mother. So why we should suggest a nonsense creation, that there was a chunk and there was a creation? What is this? Talk on this point. Where is your experience that all of a sudden a chunk dropped and there was creation? We have got experience that creation is there. Mother is there, and a child is coming. This is the creation. So wherefrom this idea comes, that without father and mother, creation is possible? What is his argument? He is great scientist. Let him...Hrdayananda: Chief rascal.
Radhavallabha: They say that nature takes care of it all.
Prabhupada: What? Then why nature did not take care of you? (laughter) Therefore you are rascal.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada? The trees, they produce seeds, and the seed drops on the ground, and than another tree comes.
Prabhupada: That's all right,
Ramesvara: There's no father. Simply...
Prabhupada: There is no father. That I understand. But the tree is coming from the earth. So that is in anywhere. Just like the father gives the seed in the womb of the mother, and she produces the body and it comes out. The seed is coming from the father. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: bijo'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. The seed comes from the father, that you cannot deny. Mother, without seed, cannot be pregnant and cannot give child. That is our experience. Nature is mother, and the seed is given by the father.
Ramesvara: In science, the biologists teach that there are small animals, very small, called amoebas. And when they reproduce, they simply divide themselves into two; there is no sex, there is no father.
Prabhupada: That's all right. So two or three or four or five coming from the life. The amoeba is a life. Not that from any stone it is coming. The life is coming from life. But in a different way.
Radhavallabha: Previously the scientists used to say that they would put dirty laundry and rotten garbage in a box. Then a few weeks later they would find rats. So they said that rats are made from garbage. So then everyone -- this was presented as a very laughable theory. And then the next theory that was presented as the actual one was that life came from chemicals.
Prabhupada: First of all, life comes from rats (laughs). Every year, they are changing their theories.
Pusta Krsna: Actually, their philosophy came from rats.
Prabhupada: Hmm? What is that philosophy? Rat philosophy? This is called vrscika-tandula-nyaya in Sanskrit. The scorpion is coming from the stock of rice. Actually, the scorpions they lay egg within the stock of rice, and by fermentation the eggs become scorpion and come out. Not that the rice is producing scorpion.
Radhavallabha: The scientists know about that, and they say yes, that is very laughable, primitive. But their new theory is simply that life comes from chemicals. So it is actually the same thing.
Hrdayananda: Yes, because life is also chemicals.
Pusta Krsna: But the fact is that they cannot even manufacture a tiny seed which will fructify.
Prabhupada: Yes, let them manufacture a seed. From that seed a big tree will come.
Ramesvara: They cannot do that.
Prabhupada: Then?
Candanacarya: Some devotees are saying that cockroaches are coming from the vapors of impure things.
Prabhupada: Yes, they come. That is called sveda-ja. Just like from perspiration, bugs are coming out. Sveda-ja.
Radhavallabha: So isn't that life coming from matter?
Prabhupada: Not matter. From matter is not coming, but they are taking birth.
Hari-sauri: That's the atmosphere that they get born into.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Radhavallabha: So are they coming from eggs, or how are they coming? Just the soul enters the dirt?
Prabhupada: No. Just like it is a suitable circumstance from which the living entity makes his body.
Radhavallabha: But how has the cockroach been formed?
Prabhupada: Just like embryo. The living entity comes of the two secretions of father and mother emulsified. It creates a situation so that he can stay there and develop a body.
Radhavallabha: But it requires some emanation from a cockroach body in order to create another cockroach body. So how can a cockroach body be created from vapors without contact of another cockroach?
Prabhupada: No, no. Vapor does not create. The individual soul comes there according to his karma and, in that condition, he develops his body. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1].
Ramesvara: So the seed of.... The soul is within the vapor?
Prabhupada: The seed, when it is put into the earth, a situation is created so the soul can develop into a tree.
Radhavallabha: But how would the soul develop a particular body...?
Prabhupada: That is Yamaraja is.... We are reading the Yamaraja incident(?). That's all.
Pusta Krsna: Just like how can a living entity take birth in the fire?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Pusta Krsna: The argument is that how can an entity take birth in perspiration? His question. So how can a living entity take birth in the fire? Mostly our experience is that entities are taking birth from the earth, but according to the understanding...
Prabhupada: So how the fishes are born in the water? How the other living entities, they remain in the air? Or without air? There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air.... Anywhere, the living entities can take birth. Sarva-ga. Sthanur sarva-gatah acalo 'yam. You read all these words of Bhagavad-gita. Sarva-ga. From anywhere, he can take birth.
Devotee: Do the living entities who are born from perspiration require a mother and father?
Prabhupada: No. No. There is mother. That perspiration is mother.
Radhavallabha: So the reason why they get a particular body...
Prabhupada: And the father is God.
Radhavallabha: So they are just getting a particular body just due to Yamaraja.
Prabhupada: Yes, according to the decision of the Yamaraja, he has to get a particular type of body.
Radhavallabha: The scientists don't know this.
Hari-sauri: It's very confusing, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Confusing must be. How you can understand the subtle laws of God? You have dull brain, with cow dung. (laughs) You cannot understand.
Arcita: So according to the Christians, Srila Prabhupada, Jesus Christ was born without contact of any material father. He was divinely placed in the womb of Mary.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Divinely placed by the Father is God. That's all. You cannot deny the fact. And he claims: "I am son of God." Then, what is the argument?
Arcita: Is there any such experience in the Vedic literatures, Srila Prabhupada? An example we can cite also?
Prabhupada: No, no, Vedic literature, apart from. Your argument, that without father, how it is without father? Without father, there is no question of birth; without mother, there is no question of birth. Our point is that without father there is no creation.
Ramesvara: Prabhupada, when a living entity is in an animal body, and when he quits his body, there's no karma, he's just automatically promoted to a higher body?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So then...
Prabhupada: Animal life means there is no sin. It is promotion. Because they are animal, their consciousness is not developed. Just like a child -- a child, if he steals, that is not sin. He will not be criminally charged. He is child. A dog goes left to the right or right to the.... He is not criminal. But if you do, you are criminal.
Ramesvara: So Yamaraja does not direct the movements of the living entities as they are going automatically from animal body to higher body.
Prabhupada: An animal is not jurisdiction of Yamaraja. The man is in the jurisdiction of.... Just like law is meant for man, not for the cats and dogs.
Ramesvara: So what determines the different varieties of dogs and cats if they are just automatically being...?
Prabhupada: Not automatically. You are man. If you develop a dog's mentality, the Yamaraja puts you in the dog's body. And then you again develop, come to the man's body. That means your term of imprisonment finished. You become again man. Now again decide. And again if you become a dog's mentality, again go. This is going on.
Radhavallabha: The different varieties of suffering within the animal species are due to the different varieties of sinful activities in the human life?
Prabhupada: Yes. And they, then they automatically come. Just as your term of imprisonment, by day's gone, it is finished, again you are free. Similarly, by natural development from dogs or cockroaches or from this or that, there is a process of development. You come to the human form of body. Then again you decide whether you go down or you go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your choice. If you want to go down, go again. Otherwise, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9], come here. So make your choice.
Ramesvara: So the living entity who is in the lower body like insects or plants...
Prabhupada: Yes. They will come automatically to the human form of body, by promotion.
Ramesvara: And he passes through all the species?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: So he has no desire to fly, but still he passes through bird species.
Prabhupada: No, just like child is taken care of. Child does not know what he is doing, but the father, mother, taking care of.
Hari-sauri: He's taken through stages.
Prabhupada: So mother nature takes care to bring him again to the grown-up youthful life. Now you make your decision. So, if you don't make your decision, the knowledge is there, the books are there, if you don't make your decision, still you want to remain as cats and dogs, again begin.
Devotee: Do most humans go down to the animal species again after human life?
Pusta Krsna: Do most human beings fall down into the animal species?
Prabhupada: Not necessarily. He can become a stool worm. (laughter)
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, what is the value for the living entity to automatically pass through all these different species? Does he get any knowledge?
Prabhupada: To, to finish his life of imprisonment.
Ramesvara: How is it benefiting him?
Prabhupada: He's corrected. Benefit is he's corrected. After undergoing so many species of life, he is corrected and again he is brought to the human form of life, civilized form of life. Let him make his choice. If he again makes his choice, go down to become a stool worm. Go! That is nature's.... Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani-guna, according to qualities he has taken. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah ahankara-vimudhatma: [Bg. 3.27] the rascal, being proud, "Now I have got this life, civilized life. I can do whatever I like to. Ah, there is no God." Then God comes as death and puts you again to become a worm in stool. That's all.
Duryodhana-guru: Srila Prabhupada, in the Seventh Canto you mention that there are certain species of human life for whom certain sinful activities they don't receive any reaction.
Prabhupada: Yes, uncivilized, they are like animals.
Duryodhana-guru: So they can perform, like, let's say for example, intoxication or meat-eating, and they won't receive any sinful reaction?
Prabhupada: Yes, oh, yes. No. Because they are uncivilized. And you claim to be civilized and you are killing animals? Must be responsible.
Arcita: Srila Prabhupada, those who come up from the animal species, do they automatically get a chance to contact Krsna consciousness, or do they, might be born in low family, or...
Prabhupada: No, they get.... Just like we are opening centers, we are giving chance to everyone. If he takes opportunity, he can become realized.(indistinct) Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa [SB 2.4.18]. That is the duty of devotees, to raise everyone to the sense of Krsna consciousness. But if one is unfortunate, he does not take the advantage.
Hari-sauri: It's a question of fortune then, in the human form, to get that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Obstinacy. If you take the worm from the stool, aside, it will go again to the stool. You see? Again it will.
Bharadvaja: Srila Prabhupada, there's still, within all the different species, there are still different varieties. What accounts for all these varieties?
Prabhupada: Varieties of the body, according to the mentality.
Bharadvaja: According to karma?
Prabhupada: Yes, according to karma at the time of death, mind is saturated in that way, and he gets a body, that's all.
Mahendra: And then, after, say if a human being falls down into the animal species, after that, does he go through each and every one of these species successively? Even there are different types of dogs, he becomes each different type of dog?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, oh, yes. That is Darwin's gradual evolution.
Mahendra: Except this is evolution of consciousness, growing bigger.
Prabhupada: Darwin has captured that portion, how the body is changing one after another.
Duryodhana-guru: Srila Prabhupada, in Bhagavad-gita it is said sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [Bg. 6.41]. So, for somebody who is now a disciple of the Krsna consciousness movement, are we to understand if he is not born in a family of devotees and if he is not born in an aristocratic family, that he was not a yogi in his past life?
Prabhupada: Eh? Past life, they had some good deeds. Therefore they have come to Krsna consciousness movement. It is called ajnata-sukrti. Besides that, whatever he may be in the past life, the movement is there, it is open for everyone. Everyone can come and take advantage, despite whatever he did in his past life. It doesn't matter. If he comes and if he is fortunate, if he chants, then he becomes advanced.
Duryodhana-guru: This is Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's special mercy.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, you were explaining to the reporter yesterday that the difference between the animal and the human is that the animal cannot think of God; he has no religion. So, when the living entity is passing through these different species, he doesn't have sufficient knowledge of...
Prabhupada: No knowledge. That is animal. That is animal.
Ramesvara: Then how is he benefited? You explained it, as he is being promoted he is being corrected.
Prabhupada: Corrected, yes.
Ramesvara: But if he cannot understand God...
Prabhupada: No, there is no need of.... Different stages of body.... Just like you are going up one step, another step, another step. There is no need of going, "What is this?" But you are going up, step by step.
Mahendra: In the Bhagavad-gita, you explain that one takes a specific birth due to a specific degree of lust.
Prabhupada: Yes, mental situation.
Candanacarya: Srila Prabhupada, you once said that if someone is not attracted to chanting Hare Krsna, that he is being punished by Yamaraja.
Prabhupada: Yes. Apana karama bhunjaye samana kahaye locana dasa.
Danavir: Srila Prabhupada, sometimes when we're preaching to people that we don't eat meat, fish or egg, they say,"Why not eggs? They're not actually living. It's just a, it hasn't been fertilized."
Prabhupada: Then that's a rascal. You explain it, explain to him that why they cannot make an egg by chemical composition and give for fermentation and a chicken may come. Why do they not do that? Why they are taking eggs from hens? Why do they not chemically manufacture egg?
Bharadvaja: Must have life.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. If that is a fact, that there is no life, then you prepare egg. What is there? Some white chemicals. A little yellow. You can do it.
Ramesvara: Just like abortion. They have a process to take the egg from the hen, and they make sure that the egg will not grow into a chicken. It is like an abortion.
Prabhupada: That's all right. The life is there. You make some arrangement that it will not take part. That is another thing. If it is a fact that the egg is not life, then why you rascal do not manufacture a chemical egg and get a chicken? Why you rascal talking nonsense? That is our challenge. We say "rascals" not without consideration, because actually they talk like nonsense. Rascals. They cannot do, and still they'll insist they will do. That is rascal. Is it all right? (laughs) South, South America, er, South Africa, there are so many factories of begetting chicken.
Pusta Krsna: The Rainbow Chicken Factory.
Prabhupada: Yes, the chicken factory, but they're taking the eggs from chicken. Why not manufacture small egg and give to the fermentation and come? There is no question of killing animals. Why they are taking?
Radhavallabha: They say God has provided it for us for food.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Then you become a dog. God has provided you a dog's body. Take advantage of it and bark. (laughter) Protest. "Why You have made me? Why You are doing?" (laughter)
Radhavallabha: When I was in the hospital, right next to me there was one yogi, and a girl yogi came to instruct him every day.
Prabhupada: Girl?
Radhavallabha: Yes. (laughter) One of her instructions was, the first instruction was that you can do anything you want. You just cannot be attached to it.
Prabhupada: Then suffer. Why you have come to hospital? If you have become attached to the suffering...
Passerby: Good morning!
Prabhupada: Good morning. Thank you, Hare Krsna.
Devotees: Hare Krsna.
Passerby: Oh, isn't that nice.
Radhavallabha: So the whole time he was in the hospital, all he talked about was how much he was suffering.
Prabhupada: Don't be attached. (laughs) Rascal. Don't be attached. (devotees laugh)
Ramesvara: But the.... Certain psychologists are very, very interested in trying to put a person under hypnosis, and then he can talk about experiences he has had in his past lives. They are very eager to have a person under a certain condition where he will remember experiences from his past life.
Prabhupada: So why the psychiatrist does not remember? Why he does not remember?
Ramesvara: They say that only certain people have the ability to remember.
Prabhupada: Certain rascals.
Candanacarya: They hypnotize them, and they say, "Remember your last life."
Prabhupada: And whatever nonsense he says, it is all right.
Candanacarya: Yes.
Ramesvara: Is that possible, that the living entity can remember?
Prabhupada: He can remember, but not these rascals' mechanical process.
Hari-sauri: They say they take him into the subconscious and they extract thoughts from the subconscious.
Prabhupada: But they say certain people can be done. That means it is nonsense. If it is a fact, if it is a process, then everyone can remember. Why certain? That is their jugglery of words. Cheating.
Mahendra: They also say, Srila Prabhupada, that since little children, little infants...
Prabhupada: Stop them, all rascals.
Ramesvara: [break].... ability that they have studied, they call it ESP, or extrasensory perception, and by this the ability to see through the eyes is greatly increased, and you can, like sometimes they have a playing card and they turn it face down, and the man can guess what is the actual card, and they have all these games, and, in this way they say certain people have special powers.
Prabhupada: As soon as they say "certain people," that is not fact.
Candanacarya: Actually, they say that potentially everyone has these powers, but some are more developed than others. Also the powers to understand each other's thoughts. (someone passes with a portable radio hearing a news broadcast)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Ramesvara: The only hope is to read your books, Srila Prabhupada.
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupada: Not my books, Krsna's books.
Hrdayananda: It's time to go back.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Duryodhana-guru: In Bhagavad-gita it is stated, nityah sarva-gatah sthanuh. So sarva-gatah, meaning the living entity is all-pervading, this is nominative singular.
Prabhupada: Not all-pervading, everyone can go, gatah, one who can go anywhere.
Duryodhana-guru: Oh, so that's the understanding, because the impersonalists' understanding, they could say that the living entity is actually God by saying that he is all-pervading, sarva-gatah. They could interpret it in this way.
Prabhupada: But you ask him, you are sarva-gatah? If you are intelligent you should have asked him, are you sarva-gatah? What he'll answer?
Duryodhana-guru: Well, he'll have to say, "No, not in this stage of life. Once I become liberated, then I will be." (devotees laugh)
Prabhupada: (laughs) Just see the jugglery of words. Now why you forgot yourself? You are sarva-gatah; now why you are conditioned? Why?
Duryodhana-guru: Well, couldn't answer, I guess.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense. (devotees laugh)
Radhavallabha: Sarva-gatah tomorrow.
Nalinikantha: When I'm liberated, I'll be able to answer you.
Prabhupada: If you are not liberated, why you are talking nonsense? Then you are a nonsense. You are not liberated, you cannot talk correct things. Don't talk. If you are not liberated, whatever you are talking, you are nonsense. So why you are misleading people? First of all, be liberated, then talk.
Bharadvaja: What is the position of Dhruva Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hmm? He was a devotee, that's all. He never said that "I am God."
Ramesvara: Sometimes devotees argue that "Dhruva Maharaja, he had a material desire, and still he became perfect. So I can keep my material desires."
Prabhupada: No, when he gave up material desires, svamin krtartho 'smi varan na yace, "I don't want anything," then he became liberated. So long he had material desires, he was not liberated. When he refused to possess anything material, svamin krtartho 'smi varan na yace, then he became liberated.
Hari-sauri: But say, like Daksa, he saw Lord Visnu and he had a desire for sex.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Hari-sauri: Daksa. So he was still having sex desire, but he saw Lord Visnu.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Hari-sauri: So then someone could argue, use that as an argument for returning.
Prabhupada: Seeing Visnu is not liberation. Just like when Krsna was present, so many people saw Him. Does it mean that everyone became liberated?
Hari-sauri: It's a question of understanding His position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Just like now many people are seeing you, Srila Prabhupada, but only a few are getting the benefit. Everyone is getting benefited in some way, but only a few are understanding.
Prabhupada: Apart from me, even one sees Krsna.... There were so many. But it is said that in the battlefield, everyone who died seeing Krsna, he got liberation.
Candanacarya: You once said if someone sees sankirtana and wonders "Who are those people?" then they are ten times more advanced than the greatest scientist.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is our test? Just explain. In the morning...
Hari-sauri: Oh. Prabhupada was explaining to the reporters yesterday, one man was asking what Prabhupada's opinion was about these other yogis. So he said, he quoted a verse in the Bhagavad-gita that if someone does not know Krsna, then he's either a fool, or he's a rascal or he's the lowest of mankind, or his knowledge is...
Prabhupada: Most sinful.
Hari-sauri: Most sinful, or his knowledge is stolen by illusion. [break]
Bharadvaja: I understand, Srila Prabhupada, that the pure devotee can be as pervasive as Supersoul?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Bharadvaja: By the mercy of Supersoul, he can be present in many places at once?
Prabhupada: Yes. By the grace of Krsna, a devotee can become anything.
Duryodhana-guru: So in other words that means the pure devotees can be omniscient?
Prabhupada: Everything. God is omniscient, so a pure devotee can become omniscient by the grace of God.
Radhavallabha: Srila Prabhupada explains that Varuna is omniscient.
Duryodhana-guru: Varuna?
Radhavallabha: It's in Fourth Canto.
Madhusudana: Srila Prabhupada, how come that in the sastra sometimes there are verses that are slightly doubtful about...
Prabhupada: Whenever there is doubtful, go to your...
Madhusudana: Just like it will have something that has perhaps two meanings, you can't...
Prabhupada: Huh? There cannot be two meanings. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to understand, go to your guru.
Madhusudana: In other words, sometimes it says Krsna comes Himself, and actually the meaning is that He comes as His incarnation like Lord Buddha, but the verse seems to say that it's the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, and without your purport it's not possible..., it's almost left so that you can be fooled, as if it's a covering, a special covering so that nondevotees cannot understand it.
Prabhupada: The Supreme Personality cannot come? It is said there?
Madhusudana: No, it says He comes in the form of Lord Buddha, but I remember it was a great misunderstanding that Buddha was...
Prabhupada: He can come in any form He likes, not particularly as Lord Buddha. He's coming as fish, He's coming as tortoise, He's coming as boar, so why as Lord Buddha?
Madhusudana: But you explain that Lord Buddha is not visnu-tattva, but that He is sakty-avesa-avatara.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhusudana: But the verse says the Supreme Lord will come Himself, so one tends to think, well, Lord Buddha is the Supreme Lord Himself, but actually without your purport we wouldn't understand that He's sakty-avesa.
Prabhupada: So the sakti is Krsna. Sakti-saktimator abhedah. The sakti, energy, and the energetic, they're identical.
Duryodhana-guru: But sometimes also the Supreme Lord comes Himself as sakty-avesa-avatara.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Duryodhana-guru: Saksat variety.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Arcita: Srila Prabhupada, just like in this material body there are so many millions of living entities, but there's one living entity, myself, who's thinking that "I am this body." Is it the same way in the spiritual body -- there are many living entities in one body but there's one living entity who's thinking that "I am this body"?
Prabhupada: Explain.
Pusta Krsna: There's many living entities within the body. Just like there's tiny germs, worms, all kinds of living beings. Because of our attachment, our particular modes of material nature, karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22], we are identifying with this material body.
Arcita: Is it the same in the spiritual body? Is it the same in the spiritual body? Is the spiritual body actually composed of many living entities, but there's one living entity...
Pusta Krsna: The spiritual body is identical with the soul. Here in the material world there is duality, inferior and superior. In the spiritual world everything is of a superior nature. There is no duality. There's no material.
Prabhupada: Petrol smelling everywhere.
Pusta Krsna: It's from these automobiles, the exhaust. They say that in some cities like New York, just living in the city itself, it is like smoking two packs of cigarettes every day because of so much pollution in the air, so contaminated. [break]...in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that the cure for madness is open space and fresh air. That's Ayurvedic method. So in the cities there's all kinds of confined spaces, the air is not all clean. There's so much madness. [break]
Prabhupada: (in car) Scientists are changing their theories, how we can accept? Reasonably? You are changing your theories, how we can accept you are scientist? You are not sure of your position. Philosophers also, they say "I believe." What is the meaning of this philosophy?
Hari-sauri: They simply give their own opinion about something and present that as being fact, and everyone else has their own.
Prabhupada: I have got my own opinion. Or anyone can have his own opinion. Why your opinion should be accepted? I have got.... [break] ...is that one does not understand that he is imperfect. Or he knows that he is imperfect, still, he wants to push forward his opinion. That is the difficulty. He knows he's imperfect. But he does not think that "I am imperfect. What is the value of my opinion?"
Ramesvara: If I have a bigger brain than someone else, and if I give my...
Prabhupada: Comparatively, you are less crazy. That is another thing.
Hari-sauri: "My idea may not be perfect, but it's better than yours," that's their idea.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That is not your secure position. One child is older than the, another child. That does not mean he is a grown-up.
Ramesvara: [break] ...means to know who your father is.
Prabhupada: Yes, certainly.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, I was once told by some devotees that you had said in some previous age of Kali, the dinosaurs, gigantic animals, were on the earth.
Prabhupada: I said?
Ramesvara: They say that you said. (laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) I never said. I never bother with these nonsense things.
Ramesvara: They have got so many bones in the museums showing these gigantic animals.
Prabhupada: Not gigantic. There are bones. But that animal is still there, whalefish.
Ramesvara: Whalefish.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Very big body.
Ramesvara: Some have become extinct.
Prabhupada: Why they should be extinct?
Hrdayananda: No longer on the earth.
Ramesvara: No longer on this planet.
Prabhupada: (too much noise) Not necessarily. They are within the ocean.
Hari-sauri: No, other animals.
Prabhupada: What other animals?
Ramesvara: Those gigantic, they called them...
Hrdayananda: Brontasaurus.
Ramesvara: Tyrannasaurus. Gigantic animals, they say are meat-eaters.
Hrdayananda: Dinosaurus.
Hari-sauri: Tetrasaurus.
Prabhupada: Another imagination. These are actual facts.(?)
Hari-sauri: They just made up different compositions of bones and then drew some outlines on them.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are imagination.
Hari-sauri: But you said in Hawaii though that there are some animals that are as big as skyscrapers?
Prabhupada: Yes, these are birds. It is far from this earth though. They travel from one planet to another.
Ramesvara: So these bones that they have found of these gigantic animals, they were all living underneath the water.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Not on the land.
Prabhupada: Maybe. But the list is there: jalaja nava-laksani. There are 900,000 different forms, and how many we have seen? There is information in the sastra. Pasavas trimsal-laksani. Three million different types of animals.
Hari-sauri: We've seen a few hundred at most.
Prabhupada: That's all. (laughs) That is also doubtful.
Ramesvara: Krsna incarnates into every species of life. He can appear in any form.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise, why the form came? Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. If we have to accept this sutra, that everything emanates from Him, so unless Krsna has got such similar form...?
Hari-sauri: That's one argument that always defeats the impersonalists. They can't explain how forms have come from something without form.
Prabhupada: Impersonalists are neophytes. My Guru Maharaja used to say, "With poor fund of knowledge." Their knowledge is imperfect.
Ramesvara: Yesterday you were telling a reporter that it is not possible for modern man to travel to the moon, but in your Second Canto you describe that in a previous age of Kali the men had created mechanical means for going to other planets, and they were creating havoc all over the universe, and Lord Buddha appeared to stop their nonsense.
Prabhupada: Lord Buddha?
Ramesvara: I remember.... [break]
Prabhupada: ...they are all mythology. Do they not say?
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore, I'm stressing on this point, that it is not mythology. It is fact. It is history. [break]
Ramesvara: ...they are sending their sputniks to..., with televisions.
Prabhupada: They can never stay there. They're coming back.
Ramesvara: No.
Prabhupada: They cannot go there.
Ramesvara: But they have TV camera on the sputnik, and the sputnik is flying over the planet, and they are filming it, and they don't see any life. That is their argument.
Prabhupada: No, we have got our own argument, that the other planet is as good as this planet. If this planet is full of life, why the other not? Analogy. Analogy is also another science.
Ramesvara: Sometimes, you write in the Krsna book that the demigods can come to this planet invisible.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So, if ordinary man went to some other planet through his sputnik, would he be able to see the demigods?
Prabhupada: No, why not? Some men arguing that.... Because he did not see, it does not mean there is no life. That they cannot say. Just like in the water we don't see. Superficially.
Hrdayananda: Yeah, if they take a sputnik...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hrdayananda: If they take a camera over the water, they won't see any life.
Ramesvara: Or over the fire, they will not see any life on the sun...
Prabhupada: No.
Ramesvara: ...with their camera.
Hrdayananda: Even over the earth, you can't see any life. They took pictures of the earth.
Prabhupada: That, that is their defect, that their eyes are defective. They cannot go there. That they will not accept. The camera which they manufactured, that is also defective. Because you have manufactured it. You are defective. Your senses are defective. Therefore, in the Vedic literature: "Don't try to see with your eyes, but try to see by ear, sruti. " Sastra-caksusa. You should accept as your eyes the sastras. Not your so-called eyes. (end)

 

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Prabhupada: Where is Bahulasva? I have read that your program. What is that? College of Vedic Science?Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So what is the actual program?
Bahulasva: That was not completed, Prabhupada. That's just a description of the courses. Yet we have to add a biography about Your Divine Grace, description of the disciplic succession, the activities of ISKCON, and how the college relates to ISKCON. That was simply an explanation of what courses would be given and how they would be structured.
Prabhupada: That's nice. [break] How it will be conducted? The idea is very nice. Who has analyzed?
Bahulasva: Who has...? Dharmadhyaksa has done the analytical breakdown.
Prabhupada: Oh, analysis is done nice, of the study.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we want your direction on how to actually do it.
Prabhupada: Actually our, that you have already mentioned, that "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow?
Bahulasva: Uh huh.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the particular, specific qualification of Krsna consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union... So I saw so many names. What they are doing?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, that's why they want us to join.
Prabhupada: But we cannot join like that way.
Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, no. On our own standards.
Bahulasva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him.
Bahulasva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately.
Prabhupada: Regulative principle is the groundwork foundation of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. [break] ...bhaktasya kuto mahad guna. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value.
Dharmadhyaksa: Many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that?
Prabhupada: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brahmanas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.
Bahulasva: Two aratiks a day, sixteen rounds -- these would be also course requirements.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the study of theology, Srila Prabhupada, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. [break]
Bahulasva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...
Prabhupada: A brahmana's business is pathan pathan yajan yajan danah pratigrahah. Brahmana means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brahmana's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called pathan pathan. Then yajan yajan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danah pratigrahah. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brahmana. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Krsna said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahih. Antar means internally, and bahih means external. We... That chant, that acamana mantra?
apavitrah pavitro va
sarvavastham gato 'pi va
yah smaret pundarikaksam
sa bahyabhyantara-sucih
Bahya means external, and abhyantara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyabhyantaram sucih. Sucih means purified, brahmana. And who is not purified, he is mucih. [break] We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. [break] ...not expect everyone to become brahmana. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Krsna says, catur-varnyam, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Krsna consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate narah [Bg. 18.46]. One can get perfection, even becoming a sudra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brahmanas can become Krsna conscious. No. The sudras also can become, provided he is guided by the brahmana. [break] At the present moment the whole human society is full of sudras. There is no brahmanas. So you have to train real brahmanas. [break] ...how respectfully received that Sudama Vipra, not that because he was a caste brahmana.
Tamala Krsna: Devotee.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca, jagad-hitaya krsnaya govindaya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brahmana means having a two cents thread. Not that brahmana. Vipratve sutram eva ca. "To become a brahmana, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brahmana: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brahmana. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. [break] ...giving sacred thread on the Pancaratriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire -- he wants to get Krsna consciousness -- so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.
Brahmananda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: If that stops...
Prabhupada: Then it is finished.
Bahulasva: That verse is from Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: Which verse?
Bahulasva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood?
Prabhupada: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo-guna. And smoke means rajo-guna, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guna. So you have to go still above. That is called suddha-sattva-guna. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upasate. That is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again maya. There are two things: Krsna and maya. If Krsna fire is extinguished, then maya, ignorance, darkness. Two things.
krsna-bhuliya-jiva bhoga-vancha kare
pasate mayara tare japatiya dhare
As soon as you forget Krsna, then maya is there, "Yes, please come here." Finished. There is no two, er, three. maya, Krsna. If you are not in Krsna, then you are in maya. And if you are in Krsna, there is no maya. Yahan krsna, surya-tahan, nahi mayara adhikara. That is our Back to Godhead motto, "Where there is Krsna, there is no nescience."
krsna surya-sama, maya andhakara,
yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara
 [Cc. Madhya 22.31]
You understand Bengali?
Harikesa: I know that verse.
Prabhupada: That's... You know it eternally?
Harikesa: I hope so.
Prabhupada: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that mayara nahi adhikara, no more jurisdiction of maya. That is perfect.
Bahulasva: We must keep very high standards.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. There is also, vegetable.
Revatinandana: Seaweed.
Sudama: Clams.
Jayatirtha: It's full of barnacles.
Revatinandana: And mussels also. The black ones are called mussels. And also crabs.
Prabhupada: (speaks to someone in Hindi) So you were hearing me talking just now?
Indian guest: Oh yes, Swamiji. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. [break] ...these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is... But still, I can support this kind of...
Prabhupada: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come, blazing fire. Kali-yuga means actually there is no brahmana, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brahmana, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. [break] Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." [break] Theological Union, when it was started.
Dharmadhyaksa: Nineteen...
Prabhupada: '62.
Dharmadhyaksa: There are schools in the theological union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are... Around ten schools make up the union.
Brahmananda: When was the union started?
Bahulasva: 1952, I think.
Prabhupada: '62.
Bahulasva: No, '52 I think. The date is in that book.
Prabhupada: I think it is '62. So what is the result?
Bahulasva: They haven't produced any pure devotees. Actually, Dr. Judah says that we will add a lot of life to that union because all these other groups are dried up.
Prabhupada: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. [break] ...karad bhaved dvijah. Samskara, reformation, that makes a twice-born. [break] ...na jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahma janatiti brahmanah. Everyone is born sudra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is sudra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved viprah. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brahmana. This is the process. Brahma janatiti brahmanah. And then, after becoming a brahmana, when he understands Krsna, then he becomes Vaisnava. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatam api siddhanam, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Krsna. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Krsna. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Krsna, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. [break] ...headquarter (Hindi)?
Indian guest: San Jose, San Francisco (Hindi), southern peninsula. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. [break] We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process?
Indian guest: No.
Prabhupada: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. [break] ...nineteen hundred fifty-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?
Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation).
Brahmananda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.
Prabhupada: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?
Bahulasva: On the strength of Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: That's it. Vedic science.
Dharmadhyaksa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.
Prabhupada: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.
Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!
Nalini-kantha: Then they can work in the field.
Prabhupada: All impractical.
Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this.
Prabhupada: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... [break] Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Samstutah purusah pasuh. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. "One who is not Krsna conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Krsna conscious. You can say that "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is... We admit. But we have got our Krsna. Krsna says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Krsna. Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
 [Bg. 7.15]
Anyone who does not submit to Krsna, he is useless, duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah. So why we shall give respect to the naradhamas, duskrtinas, mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnana? We shall not give any. We shall respect only Krsna conscious person.
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
"Vaisnava thakura, you just accept me as your dog," Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings. That is success wanted. "If you accept me as your dog, that is my success."
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaisnava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaisnava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy. Another song is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's, janmaobi jadi iccha to hara, kita-janma hau jaha das bhakta tunhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if you think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kita-janma hau jaha das tunhara. This is Vaisnava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaisnava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahma who is not a devotee." So this Vaisnava philosophy is very accurate. Therefore this life of a Vaisnava begins with surrender, not the challenge. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is Vaisnava. Christ also said that "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." Is it not? He never said it is for the lion and elephant. The material disease means we have challenged Krsna, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.
Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.
Prabhupada: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Dr. Radhakrishnan said, "Religion won't be accepted unless it can be accepted in terms of science."
Prabhupada: So, religion is not science? We are following blindly?
Satsvarupa: No, we have our own science.
Prabhupada: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following... Therefore our Dr. Svarupa Damodara has said, "Krsna, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist.
Bahulasva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.
Prabhupada: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Krsna. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Krsna. That is stated in the sastra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Krsna. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brahmana, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner -- his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.
Brahmananda: Tagore?
Prabhupada: Yes. Tagore also got his position because he got the Nobel Prize from western world. Therefore he was so much obliged. All the big, big men, governors, etcetera, he would invite at his home. He was rich man, zamindar. Not very rich but a descendant of rich. [break] ...became so enamored by the western people that there is a song, yo kuteko baralad galikiya uska tengri laya uska mutton chop banaiya: "A dog, because he is killed by the governor, so we have made mutton chop out of it. Take it." (laughter) The dog became so exalted because he was killed by the viceroy." This is their philosophy.
Indian guest: Rabindranath Tagore and all these big people, they were not pure devotees, but...
Prabhupada: They're big lions, that's all. And they are praised by the small cats and dogs. (laughter) [break] ...Rabindranath Tagore's Gitanjali he indirectly praises, "I love you," but he does not mention whom he loves. He does not know who is the lovable object. You have read his Gitanjali?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Is it not like...?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Tumi, "You are." Who is that tumi? That he does not know.
Indian guest: Well, I respect him as a person or whatever, but he is not a devotee, and it is a rare occasion to hear a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: But our principle is who is not a devotee, he is not respectable.
Brahmananda: He says in that Gitanjali that the most beautiful creation of God...
Prabhupada: Is woman.
Brahmananda: Yes. (laughter)
Jayadvaita: That's tumi.
Prabhupada: So what is this? Everyone is seeing the beautiful, the most perfect creation of God, is a woman.
Indian guest: That's lust or maybe passion...
Prabhupada: That's all. So what is the difference between man and dog? The dog is also seeing another she-dog -- the most beautiful creation of God. The ass is also seeing the she-ass-most beautiful creation. So what is the difference between ass and dog and this? And a devotee says,
yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravindayor
nava-nava-(rasa-)dhaman(y udyatam) rantum asit
tad-avadhi bata nari-sangame (smaryamane)
bhavati mukha-vikarah susthu nisthivanam (ca)
So long I have become devotee, since then, as soon as I think of sex, I spite on it." This is devotee. [break] ...whole world is going on simply by this perverted vision: the woman is very beautiful for the man and the man is very beautiful to the woman. This is the knot, hrdaya-granthi. Otherwise how they will work? Reciprocally, they are seeing beautiful. Sometimes the women like big, big beard. Yes, they like. And they keep. The Mohammedans, they say, "We keep beard. Women like it." They don't want this shaven headed. Huh? What is your experience? (laughter)
Indian guest: Well, there is a lot more emphasis over here about sex and girls than it is...
Prabhupada: That is everywhere. Why do you say here?
Indian guest: In India... I come from a village, and they don't talk... Well, fathers, parents, elder brother, and priest... And it is very different.
Prabhupada: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty.
Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit.
Prabhupada: At least, they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good.
Tamala Krsna: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: You're abnormal.
Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around..., those kind of... I don't anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level.
Prabhupada: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Krsna consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great.
Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...
Prabhupada: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.
Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.
Prabhupada: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.
Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.
Prabhupada: No, no, he does not know that Krsna is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.
Indian guest: These people are good chors, and actually they can steal something...
Prabhupada: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan he did not believe Krsna. So this is the disease. God comes personally and says, "Here I am." They won't believe. That is the difficulty.
Indian guest: Really, it is some kind of sanctifying to a person to come in contact with a real sadhu. In India I run into hundreds of sadhus, and I donate some money, but completely... Well, this poverty probably has brought this corruption, in that whole temple. I go to Benares and I go to Mathura and I go to any temple, Badnatham(?), and those people only they are after money.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian guest: This has been over the... I don't know how it can be corrected, those holy places.
Prabhupada: So you see, they are living within the sand... (laughter)
Brahmananda: Has a house.
Jayatirtha: That's a very fortunate crab.
Prabhupada: And these people say there is no life. There is only sand. [break] What is their attempt about going to Venus?
Brahmananda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some...
Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon.
Brahmananda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus?
Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft but unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: Huh? Man craft?
Indian guest: Unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: What is that man craft?
Harikesa: Just one ship without any people inside.
Indian guest: With instruments in there.
Prabhupada: That they did in respect of moon also.
Indian guest: In the beginning, yeah.
Prabhupada: Then why it is failure?
Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs)
Prabhupada: So... Then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge?
Jayadvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. [break]
Prabhupada: Why they are attempting to go there?
Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to... On the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here because that came out...
Prabhupada: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being.
Brahmananda: It's a big business.
Prabhupada: And bluffed. That is usefulness.
Indian guest: They have spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in that process, certainly a lot more money than one can imagine.
Bahulasva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, Prabhupada, they cannot make food grow without rain.
Prabhupada: They cannot do anything. Simply they can bluff. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is being done by the nature. What they can do? These foolish rascals.
Indian guest: Certainly, nature got a whole lot of power.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Indian guest: They're looking for energy. Energy running short, and we are running short of energy for driving a car and driving the entire ocean over here. See all these big waves coming round. So...
Jayatirtha: Yes, Krsna has no shortage of energy.
Indian guest: No. All big hurricanes and they came and full of energy and... I'm not saying that's good, but... We can put a small little fan in a room to blow a little wind this much. And see a big wind comes in from the nature. [break]
Prabhupada: Everything is floating in wind, in air. Such a big cloud, floating in the air. It contains millions of tons of water but it is kept in air.
Indian guest: We try to heat the home in the winter season, and it is a hard time heating a home. We don't have energy, run short of energy. But summer comes and nature heats it up that we are just too hot. So the nature's energy supply is just unlimited. Science cannot even imagine a small fragment.
Prabhupada: Our science is stated in the Vedas, yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. Just try to understand Krsna, and everything will be understood. So try to understand one, Krsna, and then you understand everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. [break] ...philosophy is, it is said, that bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim upasya, ye klisyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha means just trying to understand this, that, this, that, this, that, this, that. In this way they are wasting time and giving up devotional service to the Lord. So what is the result? Bhaktim udapasya te vibho klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha. The duration of life is very short, and he is gathering knowledge by going to the moon. In this way he is wasting his time. So the result is that waste of time. That is their gain and nothing more. Just see that these people instead of teaching Krsna consciousness, they wanted to study, go to the moon planet to understand. The result is, their only result is, that they have labored so much, and that is their gain, nothing else. What other thing they have made. Tesam klesala evavasisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. Just like you beat the skin of rice paddy. You will not get rice. Simply your labor, "Gad, gad, gad, gad," that will be your gain. So their only gain is that they have learned that in the moon there is dust like here, that's all. This is their... (laughs) As if we are very much eager to know that there is also dust in the moon. (laughs) And they bluff people selling ticket for going to moon planet. Pan American?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. This is science. bambharambhe laghu-kriya. So our Ramesvara Prabhu, where is? You have got now machine arrangement, such nice -- you can produce daily one book. (laughter) And if you cannot do so then it is like that moon planet. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. It is very nice to see that so many machines are..., but what is the result? If you produce one book daily, then these machines are properly utilized.
Ramesvara: We will produce whatever you translate the same day, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Now you can produce the fifteen books which is...
Devotee: In fifteen days. [break]
Prabhupada: Find out how to do it. Simply you don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. [break] ...the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus.
Brahmananda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. [break]
Prabhupada: ...picture.
Brahmananda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock, and jazz."
Jayatirtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you?
Prabhupada: No, I can go there.
Brahmananda: Well, we'll call him today.
Jayatirtha: Yes, we will try to contact him. When I was in London, Mukunda was saying that now it will be very good if George will sign over this manor to us because the Indian community is coming forward.
Prabhupada: Yes, I know that. So I will talk with him.
Jayatirtha: That would be very good. [break]
Prabhupada: ...purchased a house here?
Jayatirtha: Yes. Somewhere, I think, in Beverly Hills. He has moved here now from London.
Prabhupada: Oh, from London?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Who is his new wife? Do you know? He has a new wife.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Jayatirtha: Apparently, she is more religiously minded than the last one.
Prabhupada: The last one was religiously? Petri, Petri?
Jayatirtha: Patty.
Prabhupada: Patty. [break] ...school building.
Brahmananda: Yes, Venice High School. [break]
Prabhupada: ...ten thousand dollar prize...
Jayatirtha: The race track.
Brahmananda: They are betting, gambling.
Jayatirtha: Gambling is becoming much more widespread now in America.
Prabhupada: Yes, they have no good business.
Jayatirtha: The government is using it as a good way of getting more taxes and profits. The government is handling all the lotteries and horse races themselves now more and more.
Prabhupada: They also get good excise tax from liquor.
Jayatirtha: Yes. A very big source of revenue.
Brahmananda: In Germany the government supports prostitution.
Prabhupada: Germany?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Jayatirtha: Yes. They opened up their own prostitution houses, the government.
Brahmananda: They now have a skyscraper in Germany. The skyscraper is a brothel, and you drive your car in, and they have television screens. And you see on the television screen what girl you like.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes, and then you pick up the phone, and you..., they tell you the room number, and then you go in the elevator.
Prabhupada: Scientific. (laughter)
Brahmananda: Yes, it's very advanced. They call them erotic centers. [break]
Jayatirtha: They went on strike.
Brahmananda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes...
Prabhupada: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing.
Brahmananda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because...
Jayatirtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly.
Brahmananda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big...
Prabhupada: Occupying the churches?
Jayatirtha: The Catholic churches.
Brahmananda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.
Prabhupada: That is called Gandhi's policy.
Brahmananda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.
Prabhupada: It is called satyagraha.
Jayatirtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands.
Prabhupada: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the...
Prabhupada: Prostitute's house.
Brahmananda: Prostitutes, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is..." They took the opportunity of criticizing that "Here is the French church." Another big official, he was found naked.
Prabhupada: And we say, "No prostitution." [break] ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.
Jayatirtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published... The police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "fear city." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and..."
Brahmananda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt they are firing so many policemen, firemen,...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes. So the policemen, in retaliation, they are making propaganda -- and actually it's a fact -- that "Now New York is very unsafe, and no one should go out on the street after six o'clock."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: "No one should ride the subway."
Prabhupada: Then that there will be another problem.
Brahmananda: Now there will be increase of crime.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only crime, if there is no passenger in the subway...
Brahmananda: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...troubled water. Troubled water.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you fish, catch fish. The houses will be cheaper. Now, in this crisis, the house, cost of the big, big house, is cheaper. So you want a big house. You can... Catch fish in the troubled water.
Brahmananda: Oh, yes. [break] ...Bhavananda Maharaja, he did not give a very good report about New York, that the devotees there are not very enthusiastic. He says he was there one day, they collected... The temple collected only $125, which is ridiculous.
Prabhupada: So Bhavananda has given report to the GBC. Now you do the needful.
Brahmananda: Well, he's heading back towards New York now. [break]
Prabhupada: ...everything will be all right. (end)

 

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Prabhupada: Brahmananda is not come? Nobody knows why? [break]Devotees: He was in mangala aratik.
Tamala Krsna: He was not dancing very much, though. So maybe he was not... [break]
Radha-ballabha: Here comes Brahmananda.
Prabhupada: How he comes? (laughing) He is running. Oh, another car?
Bahulasva: Yes. [break]
Tamala Krsna: This not like Juhu.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...Maharaja feeling separation of mayapur.
Tamala Krsna: It's transcendental.
Prabhupada: He has constructed Mayapur. This is very good. Asaktis tad-vasati-sthale. If one becomes attracted in the place of Krsna -- place of Krsna everywhere -- especially where His lila was performed... So Brahmananda, why late today?
Brahmananda: I was in the temple, chanting.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Brahmananda: I didn't think you would come so early.
Prabhupada: It is early?
Brahmananda: Well, earlier than yesterday.
Prabhupada: No, I don't think. What is the time?
Tamala Krsna: Ten minutes to six.
Jayatirtha: Yesterday you left about 5:40 and today you left exactly at 5:30. So...
Brahmananda: I came just after you left.
Prabhupada: I think your watch is slow. (laughter) [break] ...actual time now?
Jayatirtha: It's 5:51.
Prabhupada: Hm? What is my?
Jayatirtha: Your's is about one minute faster.
Prabhupada: And what is your?
Brahmananda: 5:53.
Prabhupada: Fast. [break] ...in my childhood, I remember, I went to see football match in the Maidan.
Tamala Krsna: Calcutta Maidan.
Prabhupada: Yes. So when I was returning -- of course, I was walking -- throughout the whole... At that time our house was that Mullik's house. So from Maidan to Mahatma Gandhi Road I came. And all the watches throughout the road, the same time. Means every watch was, every clock was wrong. But I was going, so I, suppose I saw 5:10 here, then few steps away, 5:10, 5:10, 5:10, like that.
Bhavananda: Not any more.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Bhavananda: In Calcutta it's not that way any more.
Prabhupada: That's very strict in time?
Bhavananda: No, every clock is hours off. (laughter) From each other.
Prabhupada: Hours? (laughs)
Bhavananda: Hours.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] ...today?
Tamala Krsna: I think in Los Angeles it is always...
Prabhupada: Always.
Dharmadhyaksa: The month of June, Prabhupada, in California is very cloudy. [break] It was one of the few days that it was sunny.
Prabhupada: Hawaii is clear. Hawaii is clear. Every day we used to see sun.
Jayatirtha: Very beautiful there.
Tamala Krsna: India is like that also.
Prabhupada: [break] ...sinners.
Revatinandana: I think it is a joke, though.
Jayadvaita: Then again commit sins. They'll repent and commit them again.
Prabhupada: Oh yes. Atonement.
Tamala Krsna: Whenever we meet the Christians, they always say that "It doesn't matter because Jesus came to save us from our sins. So now it doesn't matter because we're saved."
Prabhupada: Then Jesus is a fool, and he has taken contract to suffer, and these people are free to commit sin.
Dharmadhyaksa: Jesus actually said...
Prabhupada: And they are so clever that they can make God's son also fool. Over-clever.
Dharmadhyaksa: [break] ...always said, "Your sins are forgiven you, go and sin no more." He always gave that injunction, "Go and sin no more." [break]
Prabhupada: ...is no description of sins in Bible? What are the sins?
Tamala Krsna: Killing, adultery, stealing. They mention it.
Jayatirtha: There are Ten Commandments.
Prabhupada: That is.
Dharmadhyaksa: Worship of demigods. They also say, "Putting any god in front of the one Supreme God." Worshiping matter. [break]
Tamala Krsna: In Berkeley there's this one demon, so-called Christian, and every day he comes out and he stands behind us with a big sign that "You will not achieve anything by your mantras and meditation." And he calls us idol worshipers. And now he writing these big signs, "Don't chant Hare Krsna with them." He chanting... He's writing, "Hare Krsna," and he's telling... (laughter)
Prabhupada: You charge, "Why you are chanting?" [break]
Tamala Krsna: [break] ...day he stands behind us for two hours to three hours of kirtana. He's becoming one of our men now. (laughter) [break]
Revatinandana: ...used to do that but he never came around. He used to be out there every day in Los Angeles for years.
Dharmadhyaksa: Prabhupada? The father of the H-bomb, the man who developed the H-bomb, he retired a week ago, and he said he was very sad that the young people were becoming disgusted with science nowadays, and all the young scientists, they are not as good as the old scientists. They have no desire any more really.
Revatinandana: Edward Teller?
Dharmadhyaksa: Yes. Teller retired.
Prabhupada: Who is he?
Dharmadhyaksa: His name is Edward Teller.
Prabhupada: So what he is?
Revatinandana: He's famous for inventing the H-bomb. He invented the hydrogen bomb.
Revatinandana: Hydrogen bomb. He was the main inventor.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, there was a survey of these psychologists, young psychologists, and they asked them whether or not they would like to do research. And the vast majority of the psychologists said no, they don't want to do any research. They don't like to do research because it's all a joke. They don't prove anything. They figure it's a waste of time. [break]
Prabhupada: ...nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam:" You cannot become a philosopher unless you disagree with other philosopher." Nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. [break] ...something drown?
Sudama: Yes, they destroyed an amusement park there, and that got stuck in the water.
Prabhupada: Oh. Why destroy?
Sudama: No one was coming any more.
Prabhupada: All amusement finished.
Sudama: Yes.
Dharmadhyaksa: They did that to get insurance money?
Prabhupada: [break] ...they are becoming disappointed in science, philosophy, amusement. That is good sign. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: ...we go to colleges, the young people that are working on Ph.D.'s, they are very... (laughs) They say, "We're doing all this research but you can't prove a thing." I ask them, "Well, this experiment, you know, what will it prove?" He says, "Well, it indicates this, it indicates that, but really doesn't prove anything."
Prabhupada: (laughs) It proves only that he's a fool. That is the only...
Dharmadhyaksa: I talked to a very nice Indian gentleman. He's a life member. He's a young Ph.D. in chemistry, Dr. Bhatt. He dedicated his Ph.D. thesis to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Dharmadhyaksa: Yes. And he quoted isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. And I asked him, "What is the practical result of your research?" He said, "Maybe in twenty years they'll find some way to use the research that I am working on."
Prabhupada: So he has dedicated to Krsna, very good. [break] ...also dedicated, our Dr. S..., yes, to Krsna.
Dharmadhyaksa: I was very surprised. I was at his home, and I opened it up, and it said "Dedicated to Sri Krsna, the Supreme Scientist." He quoted Brahma-samhita. [break]
Prabhupada: Dr. Wolfe also believes in Krsna very strongly.
Tamala Krsna: You had a talk with him yesterday?
Prabhupada: He said "I believe in Krsna unconditionally."
Tamala Krsna: What is his specialty?
Prabhupada: He is a linguist, Ph.D. in linguist.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, linguistics.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: Dr. Judah also says like that, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Bahulasva: Yes. He was coming to hear Visnujana and Tamala Krsna do kirtana, every day at Berkeley. He said he liked to come and hear the chanting very much.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, he comes every day.
Bahulasva: He was very impressed with the bus. He was seeing Radha-Damodara bus. He was very impressed.
Revatinandana: So whenever a devotee visits him, he is very pleased to see the devotees come and visit him also.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: At his office.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: He's a devotee. Nice devotee.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: He's been also to Mayapur, I think, and Vrndavana, and he's associated with you before. So he's had a lot of good association.
Prabhupada: Yes, he saw Tirtha Maharaja, Bon Maharaja.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, he met them.
Bahulasva: He told me that if he was not so entangled with family life, he would want to take sannyasa.
Prabhupada: (laughs) He is family man?
Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: No, so what is the anxiety? We can take charge of their family. How old he is?
Bahulasva: He's about sixty-five. He's just getting ready to retire. He's retiring this year.
Prabhupada: So retire.
Dharmadhyaksa: He's in very good health, Srila Prabhupada.
Bahulasva: We spoke with him that when we incorporate Berkeley temple as a university, he can be affiliated with that, and he thought that would be very nice.
Prabhupada: Oh. So let him help that our center be affiliated.
Bahulasva: Yes. We were thinking if it was, if it pleased Your Divine Grace, maybe he could teach one class in his book, and we can have some students come there.
Prabhupada: That will be very nice.
Bahulasva: That would be all right?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Dharmadhyaksa: There's this one psychologist. He comes every week to study Krsna consciousness, and he plays some of the bhajana tapes in his office. And there's twenty doctors in his office, and he plays it so all the doctors can hear. And they all come in and ask him, "What is that wonderful music?" He says, "Oh, this is from the Hare Krsna movement." He says, "No, that can't be from the Hare Krsna movement. They just chant and dance on the street the same thing." He says, "No, no, no, this is the Hare Krsna movement." They are very, very pleased. He gives all his patients mantra cards and tells them, "You should go to the temple. This will really help you." [break]
Prabhupada: This is nudie beach?
Tamala Krsna: The nude beach.
Revatinandana: It used to be.
Bahulasva: ...on one side
Revatinandana: At one time they made it legal to be nude here, and then later on, they repealed the law again.
Jayatirtha: Venice? It is still nude, Venice Beach.
Revatinandana: Is it still? Really.
Jayatirtha: You can either come wearing clothes or not wearing clothes to this beach.
Tamala Krsna: Lucky we come early.
Sudama: Just like the monkeys.
Revatinandana: Oh, it was in Laguna that they repealed it.
Prabhupada: But why, then, the lavatory they have made distinction for woman and for men?
Tamala Krsna: Now in the colleges there's no more distinction.
Jayatirtha: Co-educational bathrooms.
Tamala Krsna: One bathroom. One residence, one bathroom...
Revatinandana: The boys and girls live in the same residence on the same floors and use the same bathrooms. Practically there is no restriction on the association. They're not married.
Tamala Krsna: Congress just passed a law that the health education, means the gym, gymnastic classes... Every day there's physical education class?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Must be co-educational. They must be. They passed a law like that.
Dharmadhyaksa: Soon they'll get so disgusted with this association, they'll all want to become brahmacaris.
Revatinandana: When we noticed that this amusement pier was torn down, I didn't think that it meant that they were less interested in amusement, but they have become more degraded in their approach. The amusement pier... They come here instead to be naked on the beach for their amusement. Or they stay home and use intoxicants mostly. That is increasing. [break] ...like a prostitute house. And almost every place they are, not even one part of the city anymore, but you see them everywhere.
Prabhupada: The woman gives massage?
Revatinandana: Yes. Always advertising, "Beautiful young girls to massage you."
Dharmadhyaksa: This is open prostitution now. They advertise very, very, very badly.
Bahulasva: We had a hearing in Berkeley for our temple, whether or not we could live there, and some neighbors were saying that "These Hare Krsna people are no good because they don't have any sex life and don't take any intoxication."
Jayatirtha: "They hate sex, they hate women, they hate drugs..."
Bahulasva: They said, "They are too pure. They will make this whole place... They'll take over this whole place."
Devotee: "They'll convert the whole neighborhood."
Dharmadhyaksa: "They're trying to subvert and infiltrate our philosophy into their neighborhood."
Prabhupada: So they are coming to know what we are. (laughter)
Woman: (in distance) Hare Krsna!
Prabhupada: Thank you very much.
Mexican Woman: Good morning.
Devotees: Hare Krsna!
Prabhupada: Good morning.
Revatinandana: The Mexican people are always a little appreciative. They naturally believe in God.
Prabhupada: Give them invitations. Today is Sunday.
Bahulasva: Yes, Cit-sukhananda is speaking with them.
Prabhupada: No, you have no card? Love feast card? Give them, that "come."
Jagannatha-suta: Jayatirtha has one. [break]
Prabhupada: ...is our enemy, it means Hare Krsna is acting upon him. Yes.
Bahulasva: Like Kamsa.
Prabhupada: Yes. (chuckles) Kamat bhayat krodhat. Either for lust desires or out of fear, out of anger, some way or other, if one is attached to Krsna, his life will be nice. So enemy means krodhat, being angry upon us. "These Hare Krsna people does like that." So he is angry. But that will also be effective. Krodhat.
Tamala Krsna: Krsna is so merciful.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: One day in London a woman came to try to drag her daughter from the temple. She came into the temple room with her shoes on, and one devotee... She would not remove her shoes, so the devotee pulled off her shoes and she fell down. It was almost like she bowed down. She became so angry, she was shouting in front of the Deities, and I dragged her out and had to wrestle her out of the temple, literally wrestling with her to get her out the door. And she came back in with a policeman, and she pretended to have a fainting spell because we had beaten her so badly, she said. And so she said, "Get me some water," but we didn't have any water, so we have her some milk prasadam, and she drank it without thinking what it was. And so in so many ways -- she saw the Deities, she had prasadam, and then she left again, and all this, completely out of anger, but her anger was so strong that she got a lot of association because of it. She was so energetic, I think she could become a devotee some day. [break]
Tamala Krsna: ...in America from India. They are so much impressed, Srila Prabhupada. But the most impressive thing for these life members is to come to America and see our institutions. They have letters of introduction. They don't want to live in the temple generally, but they come to see.
Prabhupada: The other, that member, the same?
Tamala Krsna: Different men. I know. I made these men life members in Bombay, and I happened to be in Washington D.C. when they came there. And they attend the aratis, you know. It's very nice. They are very, very impressed.
Revatinandana: When Kartikeya Mahadevia came to America some time back, he remarked to me that he had come to see all the sights like the Grand Canyon and like that, but primarily he seemed, now he was just simply going from temple to temple because the temples were nice. Nothing else was so nice as he expected.
Bahulasva: Some life members came to San Francisco, and we picked them up in this Mercedes.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that's him, that same man.
Bahulasva: And they were so impressed that we had such a nice car for greeting the life members. (laughter)
Tamala Krsna: They talked about that. It's the same man I met in Washington D.C., Mr. Poddar.
Bahulasva: Mr. Poddar, yes. They said, "Oh, this is the life member car."
Prabhupada: One gentleman came to see me in Hawaii. He's also life member.
Harikesa: Ramesh Lahoti.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, Mr. Lahoti. Yeah, actually...
Prabhupada: Yes, he knows you very well.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Actually, that plan to have a tour is a very good plan if it can be arranged. Because if they get convinced here by seeing this, then, when they go there, they'll speak so highly to so many people.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Tamala Krsna: I think that they think that we're bluffing to some extent, but when they come here, they see actually it's not just the pictures that we are showing, but there's something substantial behind the picture. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: ...the colleges and high schools now that the teachers appreciate the philosophy much more than the students. They have more brain substance, and it's even a possibility many of them will actually become devotees if they have more association because devotees are practically the only intelligent people that they ever get to talk to. Even the other members of the faculty, they are not so intelligent to talk to them. But we went to see one philosopher. He's written seventeen books and he's a distinguished professor of philosophy. We talked to him for three hours, a very famous... His books are used all over the country. He said, "My philosophy is closest to this Hare Krsna philosophy, after you've explained it to me." He will be coming back. He's going on tour. He's retiring. We're also going to try to get him to come to Berkeley.
Revatinandana: Is that the one at Pomona College?
Dharmadhyaksa: No, this is another one at U.S.C., University of Southern California.
Prabhupada: So some professors wanted to see me?
Jayatirtha: Yes. In fact, one is coming over this afternoon.
Brahmananda: Today two are coming.
Dharmadhyaksa: Actually at the University of Southern California around three or four members of the religion department want to come, including the chairman.
Prabhupada: So let them come. [break]
Bahulasva: ...yesterday that Indian gentleman, Dr. Singh? He had become very doubtful when you told him they didn't go to the moon. He was saying, "Do you think they really didn't go?" (laughter) He never thought of that before, that they might have just made a show.
Prabhupada: No. If we believe in our Bhagavata, they have not gone. It is above the sun planet, 1,600,000 miles above. How they can go?
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, at night, when we see in the sky that moon, that is the same moon that is above the sun?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: Yes? So their miscalculations are due to their imperfect senses.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, I told Madhava dasa in Atlanta that you had said that the sun is actually closer than the moon, and he immediately was able to prove that that is correct. He sat down and he, "Oh..." He was able to prove something by the way they are measuring... They are measuring the distance incorrectly in terms of bending light rays and straight light rays.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Brahmananda: Sometimes the moon comes in front of the sun.
Prabhupada: What is the front?
Brahmananda: Between the sun and the earth the moon comes.
Jagannatha-suta: Lunar eclipse.
Prabhupada: No, no. Eclipse is different, not according to their theory. That planet is called Rahu.
Devotees: Ah yes.
Tamala Krsna: It's not the moon. That's Rahu.
Revatinandana: So Rahu covers sometimes the sun and sometimes the moon?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: This Rahu planet's invisible? We cannot see this with our eyes?
Prabhupada: Yes. Why you believe your eyes so much? (laughter) Nonsense eyes.
Dharmadhyaksa: There's this psychology book, and he says that the light spectrum is this long, and that we can see this much of the spectrum of energy. Very nice, this book makes many points that agree with Krsna conscious philosophy.
Bahulasva: So, Prabhupada, you say that these astronauts have gone to the Rahu planet.
Prabhupada: Yes, they might. That is also very difficult.
Bahulasva: I was trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and this astronaut, Dr. Mitchell, and also this other famous scientist, Werner von Braun. But they are on the east coast at this time, so they couldn't come. But they both wrote nice letters that they would like to meet you if they could be in California at the same time.
Revatinandana: This von Braun is a big rocket scientist from the old days. He designed the V-2 missile in Germany during World War II, and then he designed the American missiles during the space program.
Prabhupada: What benefit he has done?
Revatinandana: Well, he's recently said... He retired, and he said now he thinks the only purpose of life is to research about God, to find out about God. He's very famous, so...
Prabhupada: That is good. They have finished already science. Now if they do not come to God, then they are finished. They have nothing to say any more. Athato brahma jijnasa. That is Vedanta. Now they have finished all their so-called talent. Now they have to come to brahma-jijnasa, inquiry about the Supreme. That is their concern now. Now they have cheated public and bluffed them, they are going to this, going to this, but they are all failures. Now they are anxious how to keep their position. That is the problem.
Bahulasva: They get lots of money for their position, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Because if they are not employed by government with big, big salaries, who will care for them, scientists? Hundreds of scientists may wander or walk in the street. Who will recognize him unless he has got money? I have seen in India. So many scientists are loitering in the street without any employment. Who cares for them?
Dharmadhyaksa: They will have to go on welfare, Prabhupada, pretty soon.
Tamala Krsna: But a saintly person, even he has no money, people care.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. [break] ...Pandita says, vidvat tvam ca nrpatvam ca naiva tulyam kadacana: "A rich man, or a king, and a learned man, learned vidvan, they should not be compared. There is no comparison." Why? Sva-dese pujyate raja. "A rich man or a king may be worshiped in his kingdom," vidvan sarvatra pujyate, "and if a man is learned, he will be worshiped everywhere." Therefore, he says, "Never compare with rich man with learned man."
Bahulasva: Therefore it's very important that all the devotees study your books so they become learned.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Anarthopasamam saksad [SB 1.7.6]. This is the learning only, to keep them saved from this illusory material energy. [break] ...means knowledge, and this Bhagavatam is the essence cream of Vedas. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam [SB 1.1.3]. Nigama means Vedas, and this is the galitam phalam, ripened fruit of the tree.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, there's one professor... [break]
Prabhupada: ...drags the home. [break] ...living?
Jayatirtha: No. Maybe he is. I think in, he was in Switzerland or some place. [break]
Prabhupada: ...make research about God. Somebody told me?
Brahmananda: Yeah. Dr. Werner von Braun. That has been his conclusion now, at the end of his career. He is interested in meditation and self-realization. (end)

 

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