Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
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Prabhupada: Where is Bahulasva? I
have read that your program. What is that? College of Vedic
Science?Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So what is the actual program?
Bahulasva: That was not completed, Prabhupada. That's just a description of the courses. Yet we have to add a biography about Your Divine Grace, description of the disciplic succession, the activities of ISKCON, and how the college relates to ISKCON. That was simply an explanation of what courses would be given and how they would be structured.
Prabhupada: That's nice. [break] How it will be conducted? The idea is very nice. Who has analyzed?
Bahulasva: Who has...? Dharmadhyaksa has done the analytical breakdown.
Prabhupada: Oh, analysis is done nice, of the study.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we want your direction on how to actually do it.
Prabhupada: Actually our, that you have already mentioned, that "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow?
Bahulasva: Uh huh.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the particular, specific qualification of Krsna consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union... So I saw so many names. What they are doing?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, that's why they want us to join.
Prabhupada: But we cannot join like that way.
Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, no. On our own standards.
Bahulasva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him.
Bahulasva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately.
Prabhupada: Regulative principle is the groundwork foundation of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. [break] ...bhaktasya kuto mahad guna. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value.
Dharmadhyaksa: Many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that?
Prabhupada: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brahmanas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.
Bahulasva: Two aratiks a day, sixteen rounds -- these would be also course requirements.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the study of theology, Srila Prabhupada, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. [break]
Bahulasva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...
Prabhupada: A brahmana's business is pathan pathan yajan yajan danah pratigrahah. Brahmana means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brahmana's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called pathan pathan. Then yajan yajan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danah pratigrahah. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brahmana. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Krsna said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahih. Antar means internally, and bahih means external. We... That chant, that acamana mantra?
apavitrah pavitro va
sarvavastham gato 'pi va
yah smaret pundarikaksam
sa bahyabhyantara-sucih
Bahya means external, and abhyantara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyabhyantaram sucih. Sucih means purified, brahmana. And who is not purified, he is mucih. [break] We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. [break] ...not expect everyone to become brahmana. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Krsna says, catur-varnyam, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Krsna consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate narah [Bg. 18.46]. One can get perfection, even becoming a sudra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brahmanas can become Krsna conscious. No. The sudras also can become, provided he is guided by the brahmana. [break] At the present moment the whole human society is full of sudras. There is no brahmanas. So you have to train real brahmanas. [break] ...how respectfully received that Sudama Vipra, not that because he was a caste brahmana.
Tamala Krsna: Devotee.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca, jagad-hitaya krsnaya govindaya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brahmana means having a two cents thread. Not that brahmana. Vipratve sutram eva ca. "To become a brahmana, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brahmana: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brahmana. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. [break] ...giving sacred thread on the Pancaratriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire -- he wants to get Krsna consciousness -- so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.
Brahmananda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: If that stops...
Prabhupada: Then it is finished.
Bahulasva: That verse is from Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: Which verse?
Bahulasva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood?
Prabhupada: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo-guna. And smoke means rajo-guna, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guna. So you have to go still above. That is called suddha-sattva-guna. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upasate. That is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again maya. There are two things: Krsna and maya. If Krsna fire is extinguished, then maya, ignorance, darkness. Two things.
krsna-bhuliya-jiva bhoga-vancha kare
pasate mayara tare japatiya dhare
As soon as you forget Krsna, then maya is there, "Yes, please come here." Finished. There is no two, er, three. maya, Krsna. If you are not in Krsna, then you are in maya. And if you are in Krsna, there is no maya. Yahan krsna, surya-tahan, nahi mayara adhikara. That is our Back to Godhead motto, "Where there is Krsna, there is no nescience."
krsna surya-sama, maya andhakara,
yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara
[Cc. Madhya 22.31]
You understand Bengali?
Harikesa: I know that verse.
Prabhupada: That's... You know it eternally?
Harikesa: I hope so.
Prabhupada: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that mayara nahi adhikara, no more jurisdiction of maya. That is perfect.
Bahulasva: We must keep very high standards.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. There is also, vegetable.
Revatinandana: Seaweed.
Sudama: Clams.
Jayatirtha: It's full of barnacles.
Revatinandana: And mussels also. The black ones are called mussels. And also crabs.
Prabhupada: (speaks to someone in Hindi) So you were hearing me talking just now?
Indian guest: Oh yes, Swamiji. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. [break] ...these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is... But still, I can support this kind of...
Prabhupada: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come, blazing fire. Kali-yuga means actually there is no brahmana, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brahmana, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. [break] Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." [break] Theological Union, when it was started.
Dharmadhyaksa: Nineteen...
Prabhupada: '62.
Dharmadhyaksa: There are schools in the theological union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are... Around ten schools make up the union.
Brahmananda: When was the union started?
Bahulasva: 1952, I think.
Prabhupada: '62.
Bahulasva: No, '52 I think. The date is in that book.
Prabhupada: I think it is '62. So what is the result?
Bahulasva: They haven't produced any pure devotees. Actually, Dr. Judah says that we will add a lot of life to that union because all these other groups are dried up.
Prabhupada: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. [break] ...karad bhaved dvijah. Samskara, reformation, that makes a twice-born. [break] ...na jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahma janatiti brahmanah. Everyone is born sudra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is sudra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved viprah. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brahmana. This is the process. Brahma janatiti brahmanah. And then, after becoming a brahmana, when he understands Krsna, then he becomes Vaisnava. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatam api siddhanam, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Krsna. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Krsna. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Krsna, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. [break] ...headquarter (Hindi)?
Indian guest: San Jose, San Francisco (Hindi), southern peninsula. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. [break] We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process?
Indian guest: No.
Prabhupada: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. [break] ...nineteen hundred fifty-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?
Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation).
Brahmananda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.
Prabhupada: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?
Bahulasva: On the strength of Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: That's it. Vedic science.
Dharmadhyaksa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.
Prabhupada: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.
Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!
Nalini-kantha: Then they can work in the field.
Prabhupada: All impractical.
Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this.
Prabhupada: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... [break] Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Samstutah purusah pasuh. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. "One who is not Krsna conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Krsna conscious. You can say that "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is... We admit. But we have got our Krsna. Krsna says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Krsna. Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
Anyone who does not submit to Krsna, he is useless, duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah. So why we shall give respect to the naradhamas, duskrtinas, mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnana? We shall not give any. We shall respect only Krsna conscious person.
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
"Vaisnava thakura, you just accept me as your dog," Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings. That is success wanted. "If you accept me as your dog, that is my success."
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaisnava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaisnava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy. Another song is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's, janmaobi jadi iccha to hara, kita-janma hau jaha das bhakta tunhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if you think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kita-janma hau jaha das tunhara. This is Vaisnava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaisnava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahma who is not a devotee." So this Vaisnava philosophy is very accurate. Therefore this life of a Vaisnava begins with surrender, not the challenge. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is Vaisnava. Christ also said that "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." Is it not? He never said it is for the lion and elephant. The material disease means we have challenged Krsna, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.
Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.
Prabhupada: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Dr. Radhakrishnan said, "Religion won't be accepted unless it can be accepted in terms of science."
Prabhupada: So, religion is not science? We are following blindly?
Satsvarupa: No, we have our own science.
Prabhupada: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following... Therefore our Dr. Svarupa Damodara has said, "Krsna, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist.
Bahulasva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.
Prabhupada: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Krsna. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Krsna. That is stated in the sastra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Krsna. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brahmana, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner -- his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.
Brahmananda: Tagore?
Prabhupada: Yes. Tagore also got his position because he got the Nobel Prize from western world. Therefore he was so much obliged. All the big, big men, governors, etcetera, he would invite at his home. He was rich man, zamindar. Not very rich but a descendant of rich. [break] ...became so enamored by the western people that there is a song, yo kuteko baralad galikiya uska tengri laya uska mutton chop banaiya: "A dog, because he is killed by the governor, so we have made mutton chop out of it. Take it." (laughter) The dog became so exalted because he was killed by the viceroy." This is their philosophy.
Indian guest: Rabindranath Tagore and all these big people, they were not pure devotees, but...
Prabhupada: They're big lions, that's all. And they are praised by the small cats and dogs. (laughter) [break] ...Rabindranath Tagore's Gitanjali he indirectly praises, "I love you," but he does not mention whom he loves. He does not know who is the lovable object. You have read his Gitanjali?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Is it not like...?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Tumi, "You are." Who is that tumi? That he does not know.
Indian guest: Well, I respect him as a person or whatever, but he is not a devotee, and it is a rare occasion to hear a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: But our principle is who is not a devotee, he is not respectable.
Brahmananda: He says in that Gitanjali that the most beautiful creation of God...
Prabhupada: Is woman.
Brahmananda: Yes. (laughter)
Jayadvaita: That's tumi.
Prabhupada: So what is this? Everyone is seeing the beautiful, the most perfect creation of God, is a woman.
Indian guest: That's lust or maybe passion...
Prabhupada: That's all. So what is the difference between man and dog? The dog is also seeing another she-dog -- the most beautiful creation of God. The ass is also seeing the she-ass-most beautiful creation. So what is the difference between ass and dog and this? And a devotee says,
yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravindayor
nava-nava-(rasa-)dhaman(y udyatam) rantum asit
tad-avadhi bata nari-sangame (smaryamane)
bhavati mukha-vikarah susthu nisthivanam (ca)
So long I have become devotee, since then, as soon as I think of sex, I spite on it." This is devotee. [break] ...whole world is going on simply by this perverted vision: the woman is very beautiful for the man and the man is very beautiful to the woman. This is the knot, hrdaya-granthi. Otherwise how they will work? Reciprocally, they are seeing beautiful. Sometimes the women like big, big beard. Yes, they like. And they keep. The Mohammedans, they say, "We keep beard. Women like it." They don't want this shaven headed. Huh? What is your experience? (laughter)
Indian guest: Well, there is a lot more emphasis over here about sex and girls than it is...
Prabhupada: That is everywhere. Why do you say here?
Indian guest: In India... I come from a village, and they don't talk... Well, fathers, parents, elder brother, and priest... And it is very different.
Prabhupada: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty.
Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit.
Prabhupada: At least, they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good.
Tamala Krsna: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: You're abnormal.
Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around..., those kind of... I don't anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level.
Prabhupada: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Krsna consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great.
Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...
Prabhupada: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.
Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.
Prabhupada: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.
Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.
Prabhupada: No, no, he does not know that Krsna is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.
Indian guest: These people are good chors, and actually they can steal something...
Prabhupada: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan he did not believe Krsna. So this is the disease. God comes personally and says, "Here I am." They won't believe. That is the difficulty.
Indian guest: Really, it is some kind of sanctifying to a person to come in contact with a real sadhu. In India I run into hundreds of sadhus, and I donate some money, but completely... Well, this poverty probably has brought this corruption, in that whole temple. I go to Benares and I go to Mathura and I go to any temple, Badnatham(?), and those people only they are after money.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian guest: This has been over the... I don't know how it can be corrected, those holy places.
Prabhupada: So you see, they are living within the sand... (laughter)
Brahmananda: Has a house.
Jayatirtha: That's a very fortunate crab.
Prabhupada: And these people say there is no life. There is only sand. [break] What is their attempt about going to Venus?
Brahmananda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some...
Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon.
Brahmananda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus?
Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft but unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: Huh? Man craft?
Indian guest: Unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: What is that man craft?
Harikesa: Just one ship without any people inside.
Indian guest: With instruments in there.
Prabhupada: That they did in respect of moon also.
Indian guest: In the beginning, yeah.
Prabhupada: Then why it is failure?
Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs)
Prabhupada: So... Then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge?
Jayadvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. [break]
Prabhupada: Why they are attempting to go there?
Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to... On the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here because that came out...
Prabhupada: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being.
Brahmananda: It's a big business.
Prabhupada: And bluffed. That is usefulness.
Indian guest: They have spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in that process, certainly a lot more money than one can imagine.
Bahulasva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, Prabhupada, they cannot make food grow without rain.
Prabhupada: They cannot do anything. Simply they can bluff. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is being done by the nature. What they can do? These foolish rascals.
Indian guest: Certainly, nature got a whole lot of power.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Indian guest: They're looking for energy. Energy running short, and we are running short of energy for driving a car and driving the entire ocean over here. See all these big waves coming round. So...
Jayatirtha: Yes, Krsna has no shortage of energy.
Indian guest: No. All big hurricanes and they came and full of energy and... I'm not saying that's good, but... We can put a small little fan in a room to blow a little wind this much. And see a big wind comes in from the nature. [break]
Prabhupada: Everything is floating in wind, in air. Such a big cloud, floating in the air. It contains millions of tons of water but it is kept in air.
Indian guest: We try to heat the home in the winter season, and it is a hard time heating a home. We don't have energy, run short of energy. But summer comes and nature heats it up that we are just too hot. So the nature's energy supply is just unlimited. Science cannot even imagine a small fragment.
Prabhupada: Our science is stated in the Vedas, yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. Just try to understand Krsna, and everything will be understood. So try to understand one, Krsna, and then you understand everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. [break] ...philosophy is, it is said, that bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim upasya, ye klisyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha means just trying to understand this, that, this, that, this, that, this, that. In this way they are wasting time and giving up devotional service to the Lord. So what is the result? Bhaktim udapasya te vibho klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha. The duration of life is very short, and he is gathering knowledge by going to the moon. In this way he is wasting his time. So the result is that waste of time. That is their gain and nothing more. Just see that these people instead of teaching Krsna consciousness, they wanted to study, go to the moon planet to understand. The result is, their only result is, that they have labored so much, and that is their gain, nothing else. What other thing they have made. Tesam klesala evavasisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. Just like you beat the skin of rice paddy. You will not get rice. Simply your labor, "Gad, gad, gad, gad," that will be your gain. So their only gain is that they have learned that in the moon there is dust like here, that's all. This is their... (laughs) As if we are very much eager to know that there is also dust in the moon. (laughs) And they bluff people selling ticket for going to moon planet. Pan American?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. This is science. bambharambhe laghu-kriya. So our Ramesvara Prabhu, where is? You have got now machine arrangement, such nice -- you can produce daily one book. (laughter) And if you cannot do so then it is like that moon planet. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. It is very nice to see that so many machines are..., but what is the result? If you produce one book daily, then these machines are properly utilized.
Ramesvara: We will produce whatever you translate the same day, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Now you can produce the fifteen books which is...
Devotee: In fifteen days. [break]
Prabhupada: Find out how to do it. Simply you don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. [break] ...the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus.
Brahmananda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. [break]
Prabhupada: ...picture.
Brahmananda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock, and jazz."
Jayatirtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you?
Prabhupada: No, I can go there.
Brahmananda: Well, we'll call him today.
Jayatirtha: Yes, we will try to contact him. When I was in London, Mukunda was saying that now it will be very good if George will sign over this manor to us because the Indian community is coming forward.
Prabhupada: Yes, I know that. So I will talk with him.
Jayatirtha: That would be very good. [break]
Prabhupada: ...purchased a house here?
Jayatirtha: Yes. Somewhere, I think, in Beverly Hills. He has moved here now from London.
Prabhupada: Oh, from London?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Who is his new wife? Do you know? He has a new wife.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Jayatirtha: Apparently, she is more religiously minded than the last one.
Prabhupada: The last one was religiously? Petri, Petri?
Jayatirtha: Patty.
Prabhupada: Patty. [break] ...school building.
Brahmananda: Yes, Venice High School. [break]
Prabhupada: ...ten thousand dollar prize...
Jayatirtha: The race track.
Brahmananda: They are betting, gambling.
Jayatirtha: Gambling is becoming much more widespread now in America.
Prabhupada: Yes, they have no good business.
Jayatirtha: The government is using it as a good way of getting more taxes and profits. The government is handling all the lotteries and horse races themselves now more and more.
Prabhupada: They also get good excise tax from liquor.
Jayatirtha: Yes. A very big source of revenue.
Brahmananda: In Germany the government supports prostitution.
Prabhupada: Germany?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Jayatirtha: Yes. They opened up their own prostitution houses, the government.
Brahmananda: They now have a skyscraper in Germany. The skyscraper is a brothel, and you drive your car in, and they have television screens. And you see on the television screen what girl you like.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes, and then you pick up the phone, and you..., they tell you the room number, and then you go in the elevator.
Prabhupada: Scientific. (laughter)
Brahmananda: Yes, it's very advanced. They call them erotic centers. [break]
Jayatirtha: They went on strike.
Brahmananda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes...
Prabhupada: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing.
Brahmananda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because...
Jayatirtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly.
Brahmananda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big...
Prabhupada: Occupying the churches?
Jayatirtha: The Catholic churches.
Brahmananda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.
Prabhupada: That is called Gandhi's policy.
Brahmananda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.
Prabhupada: It is called satyagraha.
Jayatirtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands.
Prabhupada: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the...
Prabhupada: Prostitute's house.
Brahmananda: Prostitutes, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is..." They took the opportunity of criticizing that "Here is the French church." Another big official, he was found naked.
Prabhupada: And we say, "No prostitution." [break] ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.
Jayatirtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published... The police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "fear city." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and..."
Brahmananda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt they are firing so many policemen, firemen,...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes. So the policemen, in retaliation, they are making propaganda -- and actually it's a fact -- that "Now New York is very unsafe, and no one should go out on the street after six o'clock."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: "No one should ride the subway."
Prabhupada: Then that there will be another problem.
Brahmananda: Now there will be increase of crime.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only crime, if there is no passenger in the subway...
Brahmananda: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...troubled water. Troubled water.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you fish, catch fish. The houses will be cheaper. Now, in this crisis, the house, cost of the big, big house, is cheaper. So you want a big house. You can... Catch fish in the troubled water.
Brahmananda: Oh, yes. [break] ...Bhavananda Maharaja, he did not give a very good report about New York, that the devotees there are not very enthusiastic. He says he was there one day, they collected... The temple collected only $125, which is ridiculous.
Prabhupada: So Bhavananda has given report to the GBC. Now you do the needful.
Brahmananda: Well, he's heading back towards New York now. [break]
Prabhupada: ...everything will be all right. (end)
Prabhupada: So what is the actual program?
Bahulasva: That was not completed, Prabhupada. That's just a description of the courses. Yet we have to add a biography about Your Divine Grace, description of the disciplic succession, the activities of ISKCON, and how the college relates to ISKCON. That was simply an explanation of what courses would be given and how they would be structured.
Prabhupada: That's nice. [break] How it will be conducted? The idea is very nice. Who has analyzed?
Bahulasva: Who has...? Dharmadhyaksa has done the analytical breakdown.
Prabhupada: Oh, analysis is done nice, of the study.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we want your direction on how to actually do it.
Prabhupada: Actually our, that you have already mentioned, that "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow?
Bahulasva: Uh huh.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the particular, specific qualification of Krsna consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union... So I saw so many names. What they are doing?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, that's why they want us to join.
Prabhupada: But we cannot join like that way.
Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, no. On our own standards.
Bahulasva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him.
Bahulasva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately.
Prabhupada: Regulative principle is the groundwork foundation of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. [break] ...bhaktasya kuto mahad guna. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value.
Dharmadhyaksa: Many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that?
Prabhupada: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brahmanas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.
Bahulasva: Two aratiks a day, sixteen rounds -- these would be also course requirements.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the study of theology, Srila Prabhupada, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. [break]
Bahulasva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...
Prabhupada: A brahmana's business is pathan pathan yajan yajan danah pratigrahah. Brahmana means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brahmana's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called pathan pathan. Then yajan yajan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danah pratigrahah. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brahmana. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Krsna said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahih. Antar means internally, and bahih means external. We... That chant, that acamana mantra?
apavitrah pavitro va
sarvavastham gato 'pi va
yah smaret pundarikaksam
sa bahyabhyantara-sucih
Bahya means external, and abhyantara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyabhyantaram sucih. Sucih means purified, brahmana. And who is not purified, he is mucih. [break] We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. [break] ...not expect everyone to become brahmana. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Krsna says, catur-varnyam, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Krsna consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate narah [Bg. 18.46]. One can get perfection, even becoming a sudra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brahmanas can become Krsna conscious. No. The sudras also can become, provided he is guided by the brahmana. [break] At the present moment the whole human society is full of sudras. There is no brahmanas. So you have to train real brahmanas. [break] ...how respectfully received that Sudama Vipra, not that because he was a caste brahmana.
Tamala Krsna: Devotee.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca, jagad-hitaya krsnaya govindaya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brahmana means having a two cents thread. Not that brahmana. Vipratve sutram eva ca. "To become a brahmana, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brahmana: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brahmana. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. [break] ...giving sacred thread on the Pancaratriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire -- he wants to get Krsna consciousness -- so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.
Brahmananda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: If that stops...
Prabhupada: Then it is finished.
Bahulasva: That verse is from Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: Which verse?
Bahulasva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood?
Prabhupada: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo-guna. And smoke means rajo-guna, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guna. So you have to go still above. That is called suddha-sattva-guna. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upasate. That is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again maya. There are two things: Krsna and maya. If Krsna fire is extinguished, then maya, ignorance, darkness. Two things.
krsna-bhuliya-jiva bhoga-vancha kare
pasate mayara tare japatiya dhare
As soon as you forget Krsna, then maya is there, "Yes, please come here." Finished. There is no two, er, three. maya, Krsna. If you are not in Krsna, then you are in maya. And if you are in Krsna, there is no maya. Yahan krsna, surya-tahan, nahi mayara adhikara. That is our Back to Godhead motto, "Where there is Krsna, there is no nescience."
krsna surya-sama, maya andhakara,
yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara
[Cc. Madhya 22.31]
You understand Bengali?
Harikesa: I know that verse.
Prabhupada: That's... You know it eternally?
Harikesa: I hope so.
Prabhupada: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that mayara nahi adhikara, no more jurisdiction of maya. That is perfect.
Bahulasva: We must keep very high standards.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. There is also, vegetable.
Revatinandana: Seaweed.
Sudama: Clams.
Jayatirtha: It's full of barnacles.
Revatinandana: And mussels also. The black ones are called mussels. And also crabs.
Prabhupada: (speaks to someone in Hindi) So you were hearing me talking just now?
Indian guest: Oh yes, Swamiji. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. [break] ...these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is... But still, I can support this kind of...
Prabhupada: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come, blazing fire. Kali-yuga means actually there is no brahmana, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brahmana, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. [break] Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." [break] Theological Union, when it was started.
Dharmadhyaksa: Nineteen...
Prabhupada: '62.
Dharmadhyaksa: There are schools in the theological union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are... Around ten schools make up the union.
Brahmananda: When was the union started?
Bahulasva: 1952, I think.
Prabhupada: '62.
Bahulasva: No, '52 I think. The date is in that book.
Prabhupada: I think it is '62. So what is the result?
Bahulasva: They haven't produced any pure devotees. Actually, Dr. Judah says that we will add a lot of life to that union because all these other groups are dried up.
Prabhupada: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. [break] ...karad bhaved dvijah. Samskara, reformation, that makes a twice-born. [break] ...na jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahma janatiti brahmanah. Everyone is born sudra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is sudra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved viprah. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brahmana. This is the process. Brahma janatiti brahmanah. And then, after becoming a brahmana, when he understands Krsna, then he becomes Vaisnava. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatam api siddhanam, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Krsna. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Krsna. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Krsna, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. [break] ...headquarter (Hindi)?
Indian guest: San Jose, San Francisco (Hindi), southern peninsula. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. [break] We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process?
Indian guest: No.
Prabhupada: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. [break] ...nineteen hundred fifty-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?
Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation).
Brahmananda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.
Prabhupada: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?
Bahulasva: On the strength of Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: That's it. Vedic science.
Dharmadhyaksa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.
Prabhupada: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.
Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!
Nalini-kantha: Then they can work in the field.
Prabhupada: All impractical.
Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this.
Prabhupada: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... [break] Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Samstutah purusah pasuh. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. "One who is not Krsna conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Krsna conscious. You can say that "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is... We admit. But we have got our Krsna. Krsna says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Krsna. Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
Anyone who does not submit to Krsna, he is useless, duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah. So why we shall give respect to the naradhamas, duskrtinas, mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnana? We shall not give any. We shall respect only Krsna conscious person.
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
"Vaisnava thakura, you just accept me as your dog," Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings. That is success wanted. "If you accept me as your dog, that is my success."
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaisnava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaisnava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy. Another song is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's, janmaobi jadi iccha to hara, kita-janma hau jaha das bhakta tunhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if you think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kita-janma hau jaha das tunhara. This is Vaisnava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaisnava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahma who is not a devotee." So this Vaisnava philosophy is very accurate. Therefore this life of a Vaisnava begins with surrender, not the challenge. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is Vaisnava. Christ also said that "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." Is it not? He never said it is for the lion and elephant. The material disease means we have challenged Krsna, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.
Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.
Prabhupada: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Dr. Radhakrishnan said, "Religion won't be accepted unless it can be accepted in terms of science."
Prabhupada: So, religion is not science? We are following blindly?
Satsvarupa: No, we have our own science.
Prabhupada: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following... Therefore our Dr. Svarupa Damodara has said, "Krsna, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist.
Bahulasva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.
Prabhupada: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Krsna. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Krsna. That is stated in the sastra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Krsna. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brahmana, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner -- his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.
Brahmananda: Tagore?
Prabhupada: Yes. Tagore also got his position because he got the Nobel Prize from western world. Therefore he was so much obliged. All the big, big men, governors, etcetera, he would invite at his home. He was rich man, zamindar. Not very rich but a descendant of rich. [break] ...became so enamored by the western people that there is a song, yo kuteko baralad galikiya uska tengri laya uska mutton chop banaiya: "A dog, because he is killed by the governor, so we have made mutton chop out of it. Take it." (laughter) The dog became so exalted because he was killed by the viceroy." This is their philosophy.
Indian guest: Rabindranath Tagore and all these big people, they were not pure devotees, but...
Prabhupada: They're big lions, that's all. And they are praised by the small cats and dogs. (laughter) [break] ...Rabindranath Tagore's Gitanjali he indirectly praises, "I love you," but he does not mention whom he loves. He does not know who is the lovable object. You have read his Gitanjali?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Is it not like...?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Tumi, "You are." Who is that tumi? That he does not know.
Indian guest: Well, I respect him as a person or whatever, but he is not a devotee, and it is a rare occasion to hear a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: But our principle is who is not a devotee, he is not respectable.
Brahmananda: He says in that Gitanjali that the most beautiful creation of God...
Prabhupada: Is woman.
Brahmananda: Yes. (laughter)
Jayadvaita: That's tumi.
Prabhupada: So what is this? Everyone is seeing the beautiful, the most perfect creation of God, is a woman.
Indian guest: That's lust or maybe passion...
Prabhupada: That's all. So what is the difference between man and dog? The dog is also seeing another she-dog -- the most beautiful creation of God. The ass is also seeing the she-ass-most beautiful creation. So what is the difference between ass and dog and this? And a devotee says,
yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravindayor
nava-nava-(rasa-)dhaman(y udyatam) rantum asit
tad-avadhi bata nari-sangame (smaryamane)
bhavati mukha-vikarah susthu nisthivanam (ca)
So long I have become devotee, since then, as soon as I think of sex, I spite on it." This is devotee. [break] ...whole world is going on simply by this perverted vision: the woman is very beautiful for the man and the man is very beautiful to the woman. This is the knot, hrdaya-granthi. Otherwise how they will work? Reciprocally, they are seeing beautiful. Sometimes the women like big, big beard. Yes, they like. And they keep. The Mohammedans, they say, "We keep beard. Women like it." They don't want this shaven headed. Huh? What is your experience? (laughter)
Indian guest: Well, there is a lot more emphasis over here about sex and girls than it is...
Prabhupada: That is everywhere. Why do you say here?
Indian guest: In India... I come from a village, and they don't talk... Well, fathers, parents, elder brother, and priest... And it is very different.
Prabhupada: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty.
Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit.
Prabhupada: At least, they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good.
Tamala Krsna: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: You're abnormal.
Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around..., those kind of... I don't anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level.
Prabhupada: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Krsna consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great.
Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...
Prabhupada: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.
Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.
Prabhupada: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.
Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.
Prabhupada: No, no, he does not know that Krsna is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.
Indian guest: These people are good chors, and actually they can steal something...
Prabhupada: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan he did not believe Krsna. So this is the disease. God comes personally and says, "Here I am." They won't believe. That is the difficulty.
Indian guest: Really, it is some kind of sanctifying to a person to come in contact with a real sadhu. In India I run into hundreds of sadhus, and I donate some money, but completely... Well, this poverty probably has brought this corruption, in that whole temple. I go to Benares and I go to Mathura and I go to any temple, Badnatham(?), and those people only they are after money.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian guest: This has been over the... I don't know how it can be corrected, those holy places.
Prabhupada: So you see, they are living within the sand... (laughter)
Brahmananda: Has a house.
Jayatirtha: That's a very fortunate crab.
Prabhupada: And these people say there is no life. There is only sand. [break] What is their attempt about going to Venus?
Brahmananda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some...
Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon.
Brahmananda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus?
Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft but unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: Huh? Man craft?
Indian guest: Unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: What is that man craft?
Harikesa: Just one ship without any people inside.
Indian guest: With instruments in there.
Prabhupada: That they did in respect of moon also.
Indian guest: In the beginning, yeah.
Prabhupada: Then why it is failure?
Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs)
Prabhupada: So... Then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge?
Jayadvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. [break]
Prabhupada: Why they are attempting to go there?
Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to... On the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here because that came out...
Prabhupada: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being.
Brahmananda: It's a big business.
Prabhupada: And bluffed. That is usefulness.
Indian guest: They have spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in that process, certainly a lot more money than one can imagine.
Bahulasva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, Prabhupada, they cannot make food grow without rain.
Prabhupada: They cannot do anything. Simply they can bluff. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is being done by the nature. What they can do? These foolish rascals.
Indian guest: Certainly, nature got a whole lot of power.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Indian guest: They're looking for energy. Energy running short, and we are running short of energy for driving a car and driving the entire ocean over here. See all these big waves coming round. So...
Jayatirtha: Yes, Krsna has no shortage of energy.
Indian guest: No. All big hurricanes and they came and full of energy and... I'm not saying that's good, but... We can put a small little fan in a room to blow a little wind this much. And see a big wind comes in from the nature. [break]
Prabhupada: Everything is floating in wind, in air. Such a big cloud, floating in the air. It contains millions of tons of water but it is kept in air.
Indian guest: We try to heat the home in the winter season, and it is a hard time heating a home. We don't have energy, run short of energy. But summer comes and nature heats it up that we are just too hot. So the nature's energy supply is just unlimited. Science cannot even imagine a small fragment.
Prabhupada: Our science is stated in the Vedas, yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. Just try to understand Krsna, and everything will be understood. So try to understand one, Krsna, and then you understand everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. [break] ...philosophy is, it is said, that bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim upasya, ye klisyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha means just trying to understand this, that, this, that, this, that, this, that. In this way they are wasting time and giving up devotional service to the Lord. So what is the result? Bhaktim udapasya te vibho klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha. The duration of life is very short, and he is gathering knowledge by going to the moon. In this way he is wasting his time. So the result is that waste of time. That is their gain and nothing more. Just see that these people instead of teaching Krsna consciousness, they wanted to study, go to the moon planet to understand. The result is, their only result is, that they have labored so much, and that is their gain, nothing else. What other thing they have made. Tesam klesala evavasisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. Just like you beat the skin of rice paddy. You will not get rice. Simply your labor, "Gad, gad, gad, gad," that will be your gain. So their only gain is that they have learned that in the moon there is dust like here, that's all. This is their... (laughs) As if we are very much eager to know that there is also dust in the moon. (laughs) And they bluff people selling ticket for going to moon planet. Pan American?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. This is science. bambharambhe laghu-kriya. So our Ramesvara Prabhu, where is? You have got now machine arrangement, such nice -- you can produce daily one book. (laughter) And if you cannot do so then it is like that moon planet. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. It is very nice to see that so many machines are..., but what is the result? If you produce one book daily, then these machines are properly utilized.
Ramesvara: We will produce whatever you translate the same day, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Now you can produce the fifteen books which is...
Devotee: In fifteen days. [break]
Prabhupada: Find out how to do it. Simply you don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. [break] ...the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus.
Brahmananda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. [break]
Prabhupada: ...picture.
Brahmananda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock, and jazz."
Jayatirtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you?
Prabhupada: No, I can go there.
Brahmananda: Well, we'll call him today.
Jayatirtha: Yes, we will try to contact him. When I was in London, Mukunda was saying that now it will be very good if George will sign over this manor to us because the Indian community is coming forward.
Prabhupada: Yes, I know that. So I will talk with him.
Jayatirtha: That would be very good. [break]
Prabhupada: ...purchased a house here?
Jayatirtha: Yes. Somewhere, I think, in Beverly Hills. He has moved here now from London.
Prabhupada: Oh, from London?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Who is his new wife? Do you know? He has a new wife.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Jayatirtha: Apparently, she is more religiously minded than the last one.
Prabhupada: The last one was religiously? Petri, Petri?
Jayatirtha: Patty.
Prabhupada: Patty. [break] ...school building.
Brahmananda: Yes, Venice High School. [break]
Prabhupada: ...ten thousand dollar prize...
Jayatirtha: The race track.
Brahmananda: They are betting, gambling.
Jayatirtha: Gambling is becoming much more widespread now in America.
Prabhupada: Yes, they have no good business.
Jayatirtha: The government is using it as a good way of getting more taxes and profits. The government is handling all the lotteries and horse races themselves now more and more.
Prabhupada: They also get good excise tax from liquor.
Jayatirtha: Yes. A very big source of revenue.
Brahmananda: In Germany the government supports prostitution.
Prabhupada: Germany?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Jayatirtha: Yes. They opened up their own prostitution houses, the government.
Brahmananda: They now have a skyscraper in Germany. The skyscraper is a brothel, and you drive your car in, and they have television screens. And you see on the television screen what girl you like.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes, and then you pick up the phone, and you..., they tell you the room number, and then you go in the elevator.
Prabhupada: Scientific. (laughter)
Brahmananda: Yes, it's very advanced. They call them erotic centers. [break]
Jayatirtha: They went on strike.
Brahmananda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes...
Prabhupada: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing.
Brahmananda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because...
Jayatirtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly.
Brahmananda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big...
Prabhupada: Occupying the churches?
Jayatirtha: The Catholic churches.
Brahmananda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.
Prabhupada: That is called Gandhi's policy.
Brahmananda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.
Prabhupada: It is called satyagraha.
Jayatirtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands.
Prabhupada: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the...
Prabhupada: Prostitute's house.
Brahmananda: Prostitutes, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is..." They took the opportunity of criticizing that "Here is the French church." Another big official, he was found naked.
Prabhupada: And we say, "No prostitution." [break] ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.
Jayatirtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published... The police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "fear city." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and..."
Brahmananda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt they are firing so many policemen, firemen,...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes. So the policemen, in retaliation, they are making propaganda -- and actually it's a fact -- that "Now New York is very unsafe, and no one should go out on the street after six o'clock."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: "No one should ride the subway."
Prabhupada: Then that there will be another problem.
Brahmananda: Now there will be increase of crime.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only crime, if there is no passenger in the subway...
Brahmananda: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...troubled water. Troubled water.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you fish, catch fish. The houses will be cheaper. Now, in this crisis, the house, cost of the big, big house, is cheaper. So you want a big house. You can... Catch fish in the troubled water.
Brahmananda: Oh, yes. [break] ...Bhavananda Maharaja, he did not give a very good report about New York, that the devotees there are not very enthusiastic. He says he was there one day, they collected... The temple collected only $125, which is ridiculous.
Prabhupada: So Bhavananda has given report to the GBC. Now you do the needful.
Brahmananda: Well, he's heading back towards New York now. [break]
Prabhupada: ...everything will be all right. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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