Bombay, November 21, 1975
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Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe
what is civilization.Prabhupada: Hm?
Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization.
Prabhupada: Civilization means advance from animal life.
Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking.
Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization.
Dr. Patel: Primary all are animals. They have to advance from animal life to further up. That is the civilization as you say.
Prabhupada: Yes, that I say. So not to remain animal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, not to have status quo.
Prabhupada: Still it is going on. The junglis, they are not called civilized. They are as good as animals. In India we say jungli he, jungli. And others say uncivilized. So Aryan, Aryan means the most civilized group.
Dr. Patel: But presently, sir, the Aryan race are spread the world over.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Right from... Aryans are spread the world over right from South America to...
Prabhupada: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Krsna chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anarya justam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Krsna. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Visnu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato va imani (indistinct) bhutani jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.
Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that the Aryan civilization, cradle of Aryan civilization near the North Pole, is somewhere in Russia. From there they started transmigrating. People went to Europe, from there to America, then south down to Iran, and then to India and all that. When they have such extreme cold they were able to civilize themselves to that extent.
Prabhupada: Hm? We don't say.
Dr. Patel: The Eskimos are not able to do it.
Prabhupada: No. Civilization means they must live in a nice place like India. That is civilization. The America in those days, they were neglecting. Nobody was living there. Gradually they advanced. Otherwise these tracts of land were rejected.
Dr. Patel: Hm?
Prabhupada: These tracts of land, North America, that was rejected by the Aryans. They knew it.
Dr. Patel: They say the Mexico was known.
Prabhupada: Mexico, they are less civilized. They are not Aryans. They are not Aryans.
Dr. Patel: That is patala bhumi.
Prabhupada: Yes. Patala bhumi means just opposite the eastern hemisphere.
Yasomati-nandana: Just opposite the?
Prabhupada: Eastern hemisphere.
Dr. Patel: But they had, sir, a very big Inca civilization in southern part of the American, I mean, continent, South America, that had been ransacked by these fellows, Spaniards. [break]
Yasomati-nandana: ...that Ravana's brother, Mahiravana, was in...
Prabhupada: Brazil.
Yasomati-nandana: Brazil?
Prabhupada: Yes. From the description it appears.
Dr. Patel: They could have gone via the Berings, on other side of...
Prabhupada: By Suranga.(?)
Dr. Patel: Bering, Bering, just near on the eastern end of Russia.
Prabhupada: Underground.
Dr. Patel: There is just next, I mean, Alaska and Bering, opposite each other. They could have gone by that place to American continent in past.
Devotee: That's what the scientists say. They are saying that they migrated by the northern way.
Dr. Patel: Yes. That is the only way. Otherwise seas are very big waves. The small crafts could not travel on that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...proposition is not migrating. That is due to increase of population. The civilization means the culture. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: [break] ...really spread toward the east in Indonesia and Indochina, all those places, which were again overtaken by Islam later on.
Prabhupada: Islam is also...
Dr. Patel: History, it has spread. Even Bali Islands today are practicing Hinduism.
Brahmananda: Aryan means change in consciousness to God consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: This means all over the world there can be an Aryan culture.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is right.
Dr. Patel: Today the world is dominated by Aryans, all over practically. Except in Central Africa.
Prabhupada: Today the whole world is dominated by demons.
Dr. Patel: Today. The Aryans have become demons.
Prabhupada: Yes. That... Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Aryan, and Aryan can become demon by culture. That is one...
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. A brahmana can be generated to Ravana state.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Aryan culture.
yasya hi yad laksanam
proktam varnabhivyanjakam
yady anyatrapi drsyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiset
[SB 7.11.35]
That who is Aryan? These are the symptoms of Aryan. If the symptoms are found in Mexico, they are Aryan. That is verdict of Narada. Yady anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35]. We are doing that. They are coming from mleccha family, but they have practiced to become brahmana, they are brahmana. This is Aryan culture.
Dr. Patel: But they are Aryans originally.
Prabhupada: No, no. This you are calculating from the skin.
Dr. Patel: No, no skin. From the blood group. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Blood or skin, the same thing. The same thing. The same thing.
Dr. Patel: All the Aryans have got B blood group in majority of them.
Prabhupada: Skin comes from the blood. You know better than..., medical practitioner.
Dr. Patel: Skin is nourished by blood. It comes from something else.
Prabhupada: So that is not the way. When there is symptoms... The symptom is... First symptom is that he must know that he is not body, and he must know what is God. Then it is Aryan civilization.
Dr. Patel: Atma-nistha and isvara-nistha.
Prabhupada: Hm. And yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That is animal.
Dr. Patel: Kunape is a dead body. Kunape tri-dhatuke.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding of spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. This is going on, loka-ranjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: Now there will be no difference because there is just like dogs, the society, no marriages and all those... We talked yesterday. There are facts. That is going on everywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes. Na te vidu svartha-gati hi visnu durasay ye bahir-artha-maninah. Bahir-artha, bodily concept, this is bahih. And antar is the soul. So they are bahir-artha-maninah. These rascals are bahir-artha-maninah, simply studying this body externally, bahir-artha-maninah. Very nice words, selected words, are used in Bhagavata.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, this body and the soul are complimentary. If there is no body, soul cannot reside anywhere. And if there is no soul, body will die.
Prabhupada: No. That is another side of bodily conception. Soul is without... Asango 'yam purusah. "The soul has nothing to do with this material world."
Dr. Patel: That's right. You are absolutely right, sir. But if there is no soul in the body, what will happen to the body?
Prabhupada: No, no. If there is no soul in the body, then body is useless.
Dr. Patel: It dies.
Prabhupada: That's all. That we are pointing out, that without soul, this body has no meaning. It is a lump of matter. But you are saying that without this lump of matter, the soul cannot...
Dr. Patel: No, no. I don't say that. But so far as the body is living, soul has got to be there.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: If there is no soul inside, what will happen...
Prabhupada: No, no. Body requires the soul for movement, but soul does not require the body.
Dr. Patel: Soul creates a body to fulfill...
Prabhupada: No, no. Soul creates in this sense: by his karma he has to accept, accept a certain type of body. But originally he doesn't require this material world. Asango 'yam purusah. And that is self-realization.
Dr. Patel: The production of the body in the cosmos is the lila of...
Prabhupada: No lila. It is compulsory.
Dr. Patel: Why compulsory?
Prabhupada: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his lila. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: What it is?
Prabhupada: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not lila. Nobody says, "Let me play this lila and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. This is force, prakrti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakrti." Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah.
Dr. Patel: Prakrtir me astadha. It is God's prakrti.
Prabhupada: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Karanam guna-sango 'sya. That he does not know. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netrena. Karmana daiva netrena jantu deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Aryan. Like dog. He does not know that why he has got this dog's body. He simply has learned how to bark, that's all.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) I have my doubts. How can we know that he is not knowing or knowing? It is our conjecture that he is not knowing.
Prabhupada: No, no. Sastra says. You conjecture, but we don't conjecture. We simply repeat what is said in the sastra. Sastra-caksusat. "Your eyes should be the sastra, not conjecture." Sastra says, karanam guna-sango 'sya. He has become a dog on account of his infection with certain type of material qualities. That is our eyes. We don't conjecture anything. It is naturally may be inquired that "Why one living entity has got this body of a dog and why one living entity has got the body of King Indra?" The sastra-caksusat: karanam guna-sango 'sya. Sastra says, Krsna says. So it is, reason is, that he has infected the certain type of material modes of nature; therefore he has got. It is very easy. As you, medical man, you know how the disease has come, you have infected the disease. It is that.
Dr. Patel: Karanam ganga.
Prabhupada: Karanam. Karanam, yes. I am layman. I cannot say why I have got this fever. You can... By analysis, you can say. So therefore sastra-caksusat. Sastra says, "You analyze his blood, and if these symptoms are there, therefore this disease is there." That is sastra, not conjecture. You don't diagnose by simply imagining. No. That is not scientific treatment. You analyze blood, stool and this, and find out what is the germ. Then you analyze. And in the sastra the symptoms are there, analytical, that "This kind of disease, the symptoms will be this, this, this, this." That is sastra, not conjecture. Karana guna-sango 'sya, very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that "This rascal has infected this body on account of his particular connection with the modes of material nature." In the smrti-sastra it is stated how one gets tuberculosis, how one gets this disease, that disease, different papa. [break]
Brahmananda: ...culture should be designed to cure the material disease.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Aryan culture. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Aryan culture. But they do not know what is punar janma, how we can stop this birth and death, nothing of the sort. Simply dogs and cats, that's all, jumping, very busy. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That's all. Immediately the verdict: "Oh, he does not know anything. He's as good." So? Everything is going nice?
Mahamsa: Yes, Prabhupada. I just came from Bangalore last night. They are having a very big program there and a lot of publicity from the newspapers with pictures and nice articles, big articles on the front page of the newspapers there. And tomorrow the governor is coming as the chief guest for the program. He was... He had that Sunday -- that is tomorrow -- he was fixed on going to Sai Baba's conference, but when we went to see him he was very pleased because he had gone to our Vrndavana temple just ten days back, so he was very much enthused with our activities and he liked the temple very much. So he was very pleased and he said, "Yes, I will cancel Sai Baba's program and come to your program."
Devotee: Jaya. (laughter)
Gopala Krsna: That's the governor of Karnataka?
Mahamsa: Yes. He was the chief minister of Rajastan previously.
Prabhupada: Yes, some governor went to our temple, I heard.
Gopala Krsna: Yes. Aksayananda wrote to me. Governor of Karnataka State.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is a good response, that after seeing our temple he decided to attend our conference. That is very good.
Mahamsa: The boys are selling more than fifteen hundred rupees' worth of books, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: In Bangalore?
Mahamsa: Yes. And the most popular book there now is that Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness. Everyone, everyone is buying. (Prabhupada laughs)
Gopala Krsna: They wanted us to print lakhs of copies of that book.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gopala Krsna: We can get it printed in India now.
Prabhupada: Yes. And in that book we have mentioned that Darwin's theory is completely bogus. In Europe and America also we are getting good response, very.
Mahamsa: Also another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart sankirtana, going village to village. But it's very austere. They were... I told them, "You go for two months, come back after two months." But they returned in six days. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Why?
Mahamsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble.
Prabhupada: Then there is no professional driver?
Mahamsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is success. People were coming.
Mahamsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kirtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kirtana together.
Prabhupada: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahaprabhu's prediction, prthivite ache yata nagaradi.
Mahamsa: Grama, yes.
Prabhupada: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village.
Mahamsa: People in the villages, they are innocent, but they have been infected with so many vices. They are all drinking toddy every day.
Prabhupada: They'll... If they chant, they will forget it.
Mahamsa: Yes. And the government is pushing toddy sales because they make money on it. They make tax.
Prabhupada: They want money, that's all.
Mahamsa: So they want to encourage.
Gopala Krsna: And now they're bringing prohibition.
Mahamsa: Where? Only in Madras there is now.
Prabhupada: No, the government is now thinking of seriously, to stop. If the government simply prohibits these four things -- meat-eating, and drinking, gambling, and illicit sex -- the whole country will change immediately.
Mahamsa: A couple of months back there was an article in the papers that the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is going to ban all gambling activities.
Prabhupada: That is very good.
Mahamsa: So I wrote back a letter to the chief minister requesting him that he has made a very good step and he should try and restrict all the four sinful activities.
Gopala Krsna: Did he reply?
Mahamsa: No, he never replied.
Prabhupada: This animal civilization, go-kharah, is going as civilization -- drinking, meat-eating, gambling. This is less than animal civili... Animals do not play gambling, at least. They have illicit sex, but no gambling.
Yasomati-nandana: They cannot have intoxication either.
Mahamsa: Oh, yes, drinking.
Prabhupada: That sugar, they say that the ants they are very intoxicants; therefore they like sugar. Sugar is intoxication. Wine is made from sugar. Yes.
Mahamsa: Yes. Molasses.
Prabhupada: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Krsna. And then wine, and they must be sold.
Devotee (2): So this is sinful activity, then.
Prabhupada: All sinful activity. Ugra-karma. And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific. So we stop immediately: "Stop these four principles." Then one will be free from sinful life. Then he'll understand what is God. Otherwise not possible. A sinful man cannot understand what is God. Why the whole world is godless? On account of the sinful life, they cannot understand.
Devotee (2): So the means of production have to be changed into pious type of...
Prabhupada: No. If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop. If there is no market for wine, then it will stop automatically. So you stop drinking, and the market for liquor will stop. (aside:) Hare Krsna. So we can return. [break] ...has not come today? He is entangled with his grandson.
Devotee (2): What is that?
Prabhupada: Kejiya? Hare Krsna. (Hindi) Yan-maithunadi grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. (laughs) Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. [break]
Mahamsa: ...now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg's of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield, not exceptionally good because it was our first attempt.
Prabhupada: So your invested money is realized?
Mahamsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double.
Prabhupada: "If we sell" means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money.
Mahamsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest.
Prabhupada: Give them prasadam daily. So they are coming for kirtana?
Mahamsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a...
Prabhupada: Organize.
Mahamsa: ...big program. Yes. And all the devotees who are there are very new, all new recruits.
Prabhupada: Then how we are going to organize?
Mahamsa: Well, Hamsaduta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start.
Prabhupada: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees.
Mahamsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced.
Prabhupada: Train them, train them.
Gopala Krsna: To give a manager right way, Hamsaduta said.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Gopala Krsna: He can give a manager for the farm.
Mahamsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage.
Prabhupada: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasadam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasadam? Every day there must be huge prasadam distribution.
Mahamsa: Many people?
Prabhupada: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasada distribution. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...thing produced, that should be used as prasadam. And they will chant. (aside:) Hare Krsna. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking?
Mahamsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the dahl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and dahl.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's fine.
Mahamsa: So we can distribute to all the villagers.
Prabhupada: Distribute rice and dahl and little vegetables, and they will come, take prasadam and chant.
Mahamsa: Also this bullock cart party can recruit many persons from villagers to come and stay at the farm.
Prabhupada: That is first business, that they should join this movement and eat prasadam and chant Hare Krsna. [break] ...food, they have begun spinning their own cloth.
Devotee (2): Oh, yes.
Mahamsa: Most of the land at the farm is black cotton soil, very favorable for growing cotton. So a piece of that we can take, ten acres or so for growing cotton, and spin our own cloth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays?
Mahamsa: It's about three, four rupees per meter.
Giriraja: For two dhotis you'd need fifteen rupees.
Prabhupada: Fifty?
Giriraja: Fifteen.
Prabhupada: Fifteen. Yes.
Giriraja: For the good quality.
Prabhupada: So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su... (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Harikesa: What do they use for utensils in a self-sufficient society?
Prabhupada: Banana leaf.
Harikesa: Cooking utensils.
Brahmananda: Clay cups.
Prabhupada: Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots. [break] ...temple. Huh?
Mahamsa: The structure is over, Prabhupada. Now the ornamental work is started since last fifteen days. They said they could finish it by March, but I don't know if we'll be able to push it before that. Since last one month the collections have also increased. So if the collections go on in the same speed as we are going now, it may be finished by March. But otherwise definitely by August it will be complete. [break] ...fifteenth of this month Indira Gandhi was in Hyderabad. I got a letter from Praghosa that there were lakhs of people there to see her, and we have printed up coupons which we go shop to shop and tell everyone that "You buy one brick for the temple. So eleven rupees is the cost of one brick. So in your name one brick must be put." So we have these coupons, and they distributed six thousand rupees' worth of coupons in that program. Six hundred coupons they distributed in that meeting.
Prabhupada: "Sell well." You know he is "sell well" man. (laughter)
Mahamsa: Sell a brick for the temple. Well, one person got the book, and he came the next day and he wanted to become a member. He was convinced. And Acyutananda says that this is for the atheistic people who cannot understand God, so here we are proving scientifically that God exists and how Krsna is the supreme scientist. So materialists, there are so many materialistic people, they always like these kind of books, so they are buying.
Gopala Krsna: The next book will also be a big hit, I think, that these scientists are preparing.
Mahamsa: Daily there are at least 2,000 to 2,2500 people coming to the program. There would be more if there was more space, but it's an enclosed hall, so we can't fit in more people. It's packed up.
Gopala Krsna: It's a lot bigger than it was three months ago?
Mahamsa: Oh, yes. We have very big publicity. And we get letters from different parts of Karnataka inviting us for programs in their villages.
Prabhupada: Yes, you do that. [break] Some big man came to see me for cooperating with others like Chinmayananda and Vinoda Bhave.
Mahamsa: A businessman?
Giriraja: Bajaj.
Prabhupada: Bajaj, yes.
Mahamsa: [break] They are quite friendly with us. There is one (indistinct) Swami, he likes our movement very much. And they have written in their book... There was a picture with devotees doing kirtana in the Dharma-prakash.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. I sometimes wrote article. That Dr....
Mahamsa: Nagar. Nagar and Rao.
Prabhupada: No, not Nagar. He is a devotee. [break]
Mahamsa: Prabhupada, how can we cooperate with them?
Prabhupada: With (indistinct)?
Mahamsa: No, the Chinmayananda and this sect.
Prabhupada: No, cooperation on the basis of Bhagavad-gita. If they are actually serious preaching Bhagavad-gita, then there is cooperation.
Mahamsa: Recently Chinmayananda had a big program in Hyderabad for twelve days. He spoke on the twelfth chapter of Bhagavad-gita, but he never mentioned the name of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Mahamsa: And last year when he had come, he said in his first lecture that "We will accept those verses now which are suitable, and those which are not suitable, we will reject them." He wants to reject Krsna's authority.
Prabhupada: Then we reject them. At once we reject it. Yes. These Mayavadis, they know that if they accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then their Mayavadi philosophy is finished.
Mahamsa: And those of the Vivekananda or Ramakrishna asrama, there is only one senior devotee that they have now, he is the president of the Hyderabad branch. His name is Ranganath.
Prabhupada: Oh, Ranganath, yes.
Mahamsa: And one day one of our regular devotees, he went to see him and said, "What about in America there are so many people, they are chanting Hare Krsna?" So he says, "In America also there are many fools." So he is blaspheming like this, how can we cooperate with such people?
Prabhupada: No, we cannot cooperate. But if there is meeting we can prove them that they are fools. (laughter) That's all. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Jaya.
Indian devotee: That is required. Actually, that is the potency of your teaching is so powerful. I have seen that every time someone makes this poor excuses in front of people... Just like yesterday I was in the train, and one guy was saying exactly the same thing, that "I believe in the Bhagavad-gita in my own way." So I opened up Bhagavad-gita and I showed to four people, "Look here, just see what Krsna is saying here." And all of them agreed. They said, "Yes, yes. You are right and he is wrong." All of them. He said that "I believe in Bhagavad-gita in my own way." I said, "Are you the controller of the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets?"
Mahamsa: Oh yes, we all... Just two, three days back we went to see that Sankaracarya of Kamakochi(?), and the old Sankaracarya, he was very nice. He said, "Oh, you are doing very nice work," and he liked us very much. But then the young Sankaracarya, he didn't say anything, but he had one pandita near him who started, who first questioned us that "Do you know Sanskrit?" So...
Prabhupada: Why did you not, "Do you know English?" (laughter)
Mahamsa: So first of all Acyutananda... I wasn't there, but Acyutananda and Yasodananda said, "No, we don't know much San... A little bit. We don't..." So he quoted, "Sarva dharman... Do you know that verse?" So they said, "Yes." So he said, "Explain what is the meaning of that verse." He started the whole conversation. We didn't want to get into any philosophical argument. So they started explaining what is the meaning, one must surrender to Krsna. And then it went on, who is Krsna. And then finally Acyutananda and Yasodananda were quoting so many slokas that they were completely baffled, and the whole crowd that was there, they were appreciating, and we were defeating them. By every sloka we were defeating them, and they were completely baffled. Ultimately he said -- he could not fight back -- so he said, "Swamiji, you are right," and he wanted to close the whole conversation because the people were gaining our side. They were being convinced by our slokas.
Prabhupada: This is Krsna's mercy.
Mahamsa: They were completely shocked that they knew so many Sanskrit slokas from so many different scriptures.
Prabhupada: The Western learned circle, they are admitting that the greatest contribution of Hare Krsna movement is these authentic translation of Vedic literature. (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Mahamsa: [break] Many people in Bangalore, when I went to see them, they knew about our movement. "Oh, yes, Hare Krsna. You all do bhajan..." They call us bhajan mandali. Then when we started preaching to them, showing them the philosophy, the books and all the activities that we are doing all over the world, they were really, they were shocked. They said, "Oh, we never knew you were doing so much." And they said there is no other organization which is comprising of all the different kinds of activities, all kinds of welfare and spiritual activities that we are doing. If we just had many preaching parties and go all over and show people what all the activities that we are doing, people will accept us. They will know more about our movement. Otherwise right now they just think that we are just a kirtana group, bhajan mandali.
Prabhupada: [break] What did he speak?
Mahamsa: He spoke on different verses, one by one, of the twelfth chapter. But no conclusion. Every lecture there was no conclusion. So he leaves the people in a blank. There is no conclusion to any of his lectures. And his philosophy is "Krsna means black. Black means unknown. Therefore Krsna is unknown. Krsna is unknown. We cannot know Krsna."
Prabhupada: And what about others' version who knows Krsna? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu or all the acaryas? (end)
Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization.
Prabhupada: Civilization means advance from animal life.
Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking.
Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization.
Dr. Patel: Primary all are animals. They have to advance from animal life to further up. That is the civilization as you say.
Prabhupada: Yes, that I say. So not to remain animal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, not to have status quo.
Prabhupada: Still it is going on. The junglis, they are not called civilized. They are as good as animals. In India we say jungli he, jungli. And others say uncivilized. So Aryan, Aryan means the most civilized group.
Dr. Patel: But presently, sir, the Aryan race are spread the world over.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Right from... Aryans are spread the world over right from South America to...
Prabhupada: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Krsna chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anarya justam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Krsna. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Visnu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato va imani (indistinct) bhutani jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.
Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that the Aryan civilization, cradle of Aryan civilization near the North Pole, is somewhere in Russia. From there they started transmigrating. People went to Europe, from there to America, then south down to Iran, and then to India and all that. When they have such extreme cold they were able to civilize themselves to that extent.
Prabhupada: Hm? We don't say.
Dr. Patel: The Eskimos are not able to do it.
Prabhupada: No. Civilization means they must live in a nice place like India. That is civilization. The America in those days, they were neglecting. Nobody was living there. Gradually they advanced. Otherwise these tracts of land were rejected.
Dr. Patel: Hm?
Prabhupada: These tracts of land, North America, that was rejected by the Aryans. They knew it.
Dr. Patel: They say the Mexico was known.
Prabhupada: Mexico, they are less civilized. They are not Aryans. They are not Aryans.
Dr. Patel: That is patala bhumi.
Prabhupada: Yes. Patala bhumi means just opposite the eastern hemisphere.
Yasomati-nandana: Just opposite the?
Prabhupada: Eastern hemisphere.
Dr. Patel: But they had, sir, a very big Inca civilization in southern part of the American, I mean, continent, South America, that had been ransacked by these fellows, Spaniards. [break]
Yasomati-nandana: ...that Ravana's brother, Mahiravana, was in...
Prabhupada: Brazil.
Yasomati-nandana: Brazil?
Prabhupada: Yes. From the description it appears.
Dr. Patel: They could have gone via the Berings, on other side of...
Prabhupada: By Suranga.(?)
Dr. Patel: Bering, Bering, just near on the eastern end of Russia.
Prabhupada: Underground.
Dr. Patel: There is just next, I mean, Alaska and Bering, opposite each other. They could have gone by that place to American continent in past.
Devotee: That's what the scientists say. They are saying that they migrated by the northern way.
Dr. Patel: Yes. That is the only way. Otherwise seas are very big waves. The small crafts could not travel on that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...proposition is not migrating. That is due to increase of population. The civilization means the culture. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: [break] ...really spread toward the east in Indonesia and Indochina, all those places, which were again overtaken by Islam later on.
Prabhupada: Islam is also...
Dr. Patel: History, it has spread. Even Bali Islands today are practicing Hinduism.
Brahmananda: Aryan means change in consciousness to God consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: This means all over the world there can be an Aryan culture.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is right.
Dr. Patel: Today the world is dominated by Aryans, all over practically. Except in Central Africa.
Prabhupada: Today the whole world is dominated by demons.
Dr. Patel: Today. The Aryans have become demons.
Prabhupada: Yes. That... Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Aryan, and Aryan can become demon by culture. That is one...
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. A brahmana can be generated to Ravana state.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Aryan culture.
yasya hi yad laksanam
proktam varnabhivyanjakam
yady anyatrapi drsyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiset
[SB 7.11.35]
That who is Aryan? These are the symptoms of Aryan. If the symptoms are found in Mexico, they are Aryan. That is verdict of Narada. Yady anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35]. We are doing that. They are coming from mleccha family, but they have practiced to become brahmana, they are brahmana. This is Aryan culture.
Dr. Patel: But they are Aryans originally.
Prabhupada: No, no. This you are calculating from the skin.
Dr. Patel: No, no skin. From the blood group. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Blood or skin, the same thing. The same thing. The same thing.
Dr. Patel: All the Aryans have got B blood group in majority of them.
Prabhupada: Skin comes from the blood. You know better than..., medical practitioner.
Dr. Patel: Skin is nourished by blood. It comes from something else.
Prabhupada: So that is not the way. When there is symptoms... The symptom is... First symptom is that he must know that he is not body, and he must know what is God. Then it is Aryan civilization.
Dr. Patel: Atma-nistha and isvara-nistha.
Prabhupada: Hm. And yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That is animal.
Dr. Patel: Kunape is a dead body. Kunape tri-dhatuke.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding of spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. This is going on, loka-ranjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: Now there will be no difference because there is just like dogs, the society, no marriages and all those... We talked yesterday. There are facts. That is going on everywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes. Na te vidu svartha-gati hi visnu durasay ye bahir-artha-maninah. Bahir-artha, bodily concept, this is bahih. And antar is the soul. So they are bahir-artha-maninah. These rascals are bahir-artha-maninah, simply studying this body externally, bahir-artha-maninah. Very nice words, selected words, are used in Bhagavata.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, this body and the soul are complimentary. If there is no body, soul cannot reside anywhere. And if there is no soul, body will die.
Prabhupada: No. That is another side of bodily conception. Soul is without... Asango 'yam purusah. "The soul has nothing to do with this material world."
Dr. Patel: That's right. You are absolutely right, sir. But if there is no soul in the body, what will happen to the body?
Prabhupada: No, no. If there is no soul in the body, then body is useless.
Dr. Patel: It dies.
Prabhupada: That's all. That we are pointing out, that without soul, this body has no meaning. It is a lump of matter. But you are saying that without this lump of matter, the soul cannot...
Dr. Patel: No, no. I don't say that. But so far as the body is living, soul has got to be there.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: If there is no soul inside, what will happen...
Prabhupada: No, no. Body requires the soul for movement, but soul does not require the body.
Dr. Patel: Soul creates a body to fulfill...
Prabhupada: No, no. Soul creates in this sense: by his karma he has to accept, accept a certain type of body. But originally he doesn't require this material world. Asango 'yam purusah. And that is self-realization.
Dr. Patel: The production of the body in the cosmos is the lila of...
Prabhupada: No lila. It is compulsory.
Dr. Patel: Why compulsory?
Prabhupada: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his lila. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: What it is?
Prabhupada: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not lila. Nobody says, "Let me play this lila and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. This is force, prakrti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakrti." Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah.
Dr. Patel: Prakrtir me astadha. It is God's prakrti.
Prabhupada: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Karanam guna-sango 'sya. That he does not know. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netrena. Karmana daiva netrena jantu deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Aryan. Like dog. He does not know that why he has got this dog's body. He simply has learned how to bark, that's all.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) I have my doubts. How can we know that he is not knowing or knowing? It is our conjecture that he is not knowing.
Prabhupada: No, no. Sastra says. You conjecture, but we don't conjecture. We simply repeat what is said in the sastra. Sastra-caksusat. "Your eyes should be the sastra, not conjecture." Sastra says, karanam guna-sango 'sya. He has become a dog on account of his infection with certain type of material qualities. That is our eyes. We don't conjecture anything. It is naturally may be inquired that "Why one living entity has got this body of a dog and why one living entity has got the body of King Indra?" The sastra-caksusat: karanam guna-sango 'sya. Sastra says, Krsna says. So it is, reason is, that he has infected the certain type of material modes of nature; therefore he has got. It is very easy. As you, medical man, you know how the disease has come, you have infected the disease. It is that.
Dr. Patel: Karanam ganga.
Prabhupada: Karanam. Karanam, yes. I am layman. I cannot say why I have got this fever. You can... By analysis, you can say. So therefore sastra-caksusat. Sastra says, "You analyze his blood, and if these symptoms are there, therefore this disease is there." That is sastra, not conjecture. You don't diagnose by simply imagining. No. That is not scientific treatment. You analyze blood, stool and this, and find out what is the germ. Then you analyze. And in the sastra the symptoms are there, analytical, that "This kind of disease, the symptoms will be this, this, this, this." That is sastra, not conjecture. Karana guna-sango 'sya, very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that "This rascal has infected this body on account of his particular connection with the modes of material nature." In the smrti-sastra it is stated how one gets tuberculosis, how one gets this disease, that disease, different papa. [break]
Brahmananda: ...culture should be designed to cure the material disease.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Aryan culture. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Aryan culture. But they do not know what is punar janma, how we can stop this birth and death, nothing of the sort. Simply dogs and cats, that's all, jumping, very busy. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That's all. Immediately the verdict: "Oh, he does not know anything. He's as good." So? Everything is going nice?
Mahamsa: Yes, Prabhupada. I just came from Bangalore last night. They are having a very big program there and a lot of publicity from the newspapers with pictures and nice articles, big articles on the front page of the newspapers there. And tomorrow the governor is coming as the chief guest for the program. He was... He had that Sunday -- that is tomorrow -- he was fixed on going to Sai Baba's conference, but when we went to see him he was very pleased because he had gone to our Vrndavana temple just ten days back, so he was very much enthused with our activities and he liked the temple very much. So he was very pleased and he said, "Yes, I will cancel Sai Baba's program and come to your program."
Devotee: Jaya. (laughter)
Gopala Krsna: That's the governor of Karnataka?
Mahamsa: Yes. He was the chief minister of Rajastan previously.
Prabhupada: Yes, some governor went to our temple, I heard.
Gopala Krsna: Yes. Aksayananda wrote to me. Governor of Karnataka State.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is a good response, that after seeing our temple he decided to attend our conference. That is very good.
Mahamsa: The boys are selling more than fifteen hundred rupees' worth of books, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: In Bangalore?
Mahamsa: Yes. And the most popular book there now is that Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness. Everyone, everyone is buying. (Prabhupada laughs)
Gopala Krsna: They wanted us to print lakhs of copies of that book.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gopala Krsna: We can get it printed in India now.
Prabhupada: Yes. And in that book we have mentioned that Darwin's theory is completely bogus. In Europe and America also we are getting good response, very.
Mahamsa: Also another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart sankirtana, going village to village. But it's very austere. They were... I told them, "You go for two months, come back after two months." But they returned in six days. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Why?
Mahamsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble.
Prabhupada: Then there is no professional driver?
Mahamsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is success. People were coming.
Mahamsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kirtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kirtana together.
Prabhupada: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahaprabhu's prediction, prthivite ache yata nagaradi.
Mahamsa: Grama, yes.
Prabhupada: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village.
Mahamsa: People in the villages, they are innocent, but they have been infected with so many vices. They are all drinking toddy every day.
Prabhupada: They'll... If they chant, they will forget it.
Mahamsa: Yes. And the government is pushing toddy sales because they make money on it. They make tax.
Prabhupada: They want money, that's all.
Mahamsa: So they want to encourage.
Gopala Krsna: And now they're bringing prohibition.
Mahamsa: Where? Only in Madras there is now.
Prabhupada: No, the government is now thinking of seriously, to stop. If the government simply prohibits these four things -- meat-eating, and drinking, gambling, and illicit sex -- the whole country will change immediately.
Mahamsa: A couple of months back there was an article in the papers that the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is going to ban all gambling activities.
Prabhupada: That is very good.
Mahamsa: So I wrote back a letter to the chief minister requesting him that he has made a very good step and he should try and restrict all the four sinful activities.
Gopala Krsna: Did he reply?
Mahamsa: No, he never replied.
Prabhupada: This animal civilization, go-kharah, is going as civilization -- drinking, meat-eating, gambling. This is less than animal civili... Animals do not play gambling, at least. They have illicit sex, but no gambling.
Yasomati-nandana: They cannot have intoxication either.
Mahamsa: Oh, yes, drinking.
Prabhupada: That sugar, they say that the ants they are very intoxicants; therefore they like sugar. Sugar is intoxication. Wine is made from sugar. Yes.
Mahamsa: Yes. Molasses.
Prabhupada: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Krsna. And then wine, and they must be sold.
Devotee (2): So this is sinful activity, then.
Prabhupada: All sinful activity. Ugra-karma. And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific. So we stop immediately: "Stop these four principles." Then one will be free from sinful life. Then he'll understand what is God. Otherwise not possible. A sinful man cannot understand what is God. Why the whole world is godless? On account of the sinful life, they cannot understand.
Devotee (2): So the means of production have to be changed into pious type of...
Prabhupada: No. If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop. If there is no market for wine, then it will stop automatically. So you stop drinking, and the market for liquor will stop. (aside:) Hare Krsna. So we can return. [break] ...has not come today? He is entangled with his grandson.
Devotee (2): What is that?
Prabhupada: Kejiya? Hare Krsna. (Hindi) Yan-maithunadi grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. (laughs) Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. [break]
Mahamsa: ...now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg's of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield, not exceptionally good because it was our first attempt.
Prabhupada: So your invested money is realized?
Mahamsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double.
Prabhupada: "If we sell" means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money.
Mahamsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest.
Prabhupada: Give them prasadam daily. So they are coming for kirtana?
Mahamsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a...
Prabhupada: Organize.
Mahamsa: ...big program. Yes. And all the devotees who are there are very new, all new recruits.
Prabhupada: Then how we are going to organize?
Mahamsa: Well, Hamsaduta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start.
Prabhupada: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees.
Mahamsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced.
Prabhupada: Train them, train them.
Gopala Krsna: To give a manager right way, Hamsaduta said.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Gopala Krsna: He can give a manager for the farm.
Mahamsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage.
Prabhupada: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasadam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasadam? Every day there must be huge prasadam distribution.
Mahamsa: Many people?
Prabhupada: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasada distribution. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...thing produced, that should be used as prasadam. And they will chant. (aside:) Hare Krsna. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking?
Mahamsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the dahl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and dahl.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's fine.
Mahamsa: So we can distribute to all the villagers.
Prabhupada: Distribute rice and dahl and little vegetables, and they will come, take prasadam and chant.
Mahamsa: Also this bullock cart party can recruit many persons from villagers to come and stay at the farm.
Prabhupada: That is first business, that they should join this movement and eat prasadam and chant Hare Krsna. [break] ...food, they have begun spinning their own cloth.
Devotee (2): Oh, yes.
Mahamsa: Most of the land at the farm is black cotton soil, very favorable for growing cotton. So a piece of that we can take, ten acres or so for growing cotton, and spin our own cloth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays?
Mahamsa: It's about three, four rupees per meter.
Giriraja: For two dhotis you'd need fifteen rupees.
Prabhupada: Fifty?
Giriraja: Fifteen.
Prabhupada: Fifteen. Yes.
Giriraja: For the good quality.
Prabhupada: So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su... (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Harikesa: What do they use for utensils in a self-sufficient society?
Prabhupada: Banana leaf.
Harikesa: Cooking utensils.
Brahmananda: Clay cups.
Prabhupada: Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots. [break] ...temple. Huh?
Mahamsa: The structure is over, Prabhupada. Now the ornamental work is started since last fifteen days. They said they could finish it by March, but I don't know if we'll be able to push it before that. Since last one month the collections have also increased. So if the collections go on in the same speed as we are going now, it may be finished by March. But otherwise definitely by August it will be complete. [break] ...fifteenth of this month Indira Gandhi was in Hyderabad. I got a letter from Praghosa that there were lakhs of people there to see her, and we have printed up coupons which we go shop to shop and tell everyone that "You buy one brick for the temple. So eleven rupees is the cost of one brick. So in your name one brick must be put." So we have these coupons, and they distributed six thousand rupees' worth of coupons in that program. Six hundred coupons they distributed in that meeting.
Prabhupada: "Sell well." You know he is "sell well" man. (laughter)
Mahamsa: Sell a brick for the temple. Well, one person got the book, and he came the next day and he wanted to become a member. He was convinced. And Acyutananda says that this is for the atheistic people who cannot understand God, so here we are proving scientifically that God exists and how Krsna is the supreme scientist. So materialists, there are so many materialistic people, they always like these kind of books, so they are buying.
Gopala Krsna: The next book will also be a big hit, I think, that these scientists are preparing.
Mahamsa: Daily there are at least 2,000 to 2,2500 people coming to the program. There would be more if there was more space, but it's an enclosed hall, so we can't fit in more people. It's packed up.
Gopala Krsna: It's a lot bigger than it was three months ago?
Mahamsa: Oh, yes. We have very big publicity. And we get letters from different parts of Karnataka inviting us for programs in their villages.
Prabhupada: Yes, you do that. [break] Some big man came to see me for cooperating with others like Chinmayananda and Vinoda Bhave.
Mahamsa: A businessman?
Giriraja: Bajaj.
Prabhupada: Bajaj, yes.
Mahamsa: [break] They are quite friendly with us. There is one (indistinct) Swami, he likes our movement very much. And they have written in their book... There was a picture with devotees doing kirtana in the Dharma-prakash.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. I sometimes wrote article. That Dr....
Mahamsa: Nagar. Nagar and Rao.
Prabhupada: No, not Nagar. He is a devotee. [break]
Mahamsa: Prabhupada, how can we cooperate with them?
Prabhupada: With (indistinct)?
Mahamsa: No, the Chinmayananda and this sect.
Prabhupada: No, cooperation on the basis of Bhagavad-gita. If they are actually serious preaching Bhagavad-gita, then there is cooperation.
Mahamsa: Recently Chinmayananda had a big program in Hyderabad for twelve days. He spoke on the twelfth chapter of Bhagavad-gita, but he never mentioned the name of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Mahamsa: And last year when he had come, he said in his first lecture that "We will accept those verses now which are suitable, and those which are not suitable, we will reject them." He wants to reject Krsna's authority.
Prabhupada: Then we reject them. At once we reject it. Yes. These Mayavadis, they know that if they accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then their Mayavadi philosophy is finished.
Mahamsa: And those of the Vivekananda or Ramakrishna asrama, there is only one senior devotee that they have now, he is the president of the Hyderabad branch. His name is Ranganath.
Prabhupada: Oh, Ranganath, yes.
Mahamsa: And one day one of our regular devotees, he went to see him and said, "What about in America there are so many people, they are chanting Hare Krsna?" So he says, "In America also there are many fools." So he is blaspheming like this, how can we cooperate with such people?
Prabhupada: No, we cannot cooperate. But if there is meeting we can prove them that they are fools. (laughter) That's all. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Jaya.
Indian devotee: That is required. Actually, that is the potency of your teaching is so powerful. I have seen that every time someone makes this poor excuses in front of people... Just like yesterday I was in the train, and one guy was saying exactly the same thing, that "I believe in the Bhagavad-gita in my own way." So I opened up Bhagavad-gita and I showed to four people, "Look here, just see what Krsna is saying here." And all of them agreed. They said, "Yes, yes. You are right and he is wrong." All of them. He said that "I believe in Bhagavad-gita in my own way." I said, "Are you the controller of the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets?"
Mahamsa: Oh yes, we all... Just two, three days back we went to see that Sankaracarya of Kamakochi(?), and the old Sankaracarya, he was very nice. He said, "Oh, you are doing very nice work," and he liked us very much. But then the young Sankaracarya, he didn't say anything, but he had one pandita near him who started, who first questioned us that "Do you know Sanskrit?" So...
Prabhupada: Why did you not, "Do you know English?" (laughter)
Mahamsa: So first of all Acyutananda... I wasn't there, but Acyutananda and Yasodananda said, "No, we don't know much San... A little bit. We don't..." So he quoted, "Sarva dharman... Do you know that verse?" So they said, "Yes." So he said, "Explain what is the meaning of that verse." He started the whole conversation. We didn't want to get into any philosophical argument. So they started explaining what is the meaning, one must surrender to Krsna. And then it went on, who is Krsna. And then finally Acyutananda and Yasodananda were quoting so many slokas that they were completely baffled, and the whole crowd that was there, they were appreciating, and we were defeating them. By every sloka we were defeating them, and they were completely baffled. Ultimately he said -- he could not fight back -- so he said, "Swamiji, you are right," and he wanted to close the whole conversation because the people were gaining our side. They were being convinced by our slokas.
Prabhupada: This is Krsna's mercy.
Mahamsa: They were completely shocked that they knew so many Sanskrit slokas from so many different scriptures.
Prabhupada: The Western learned circle, they are admitting that the greatest contribution of Hare Krsna movement is these authentic translation of Vedic literature. (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Mahamsa: [break] Many people in Bangalore, when I went to see them, they knew about our movement. "Oh, yes, Hare Krsna. You all do bhajan..." They call us bhajan mandali. Then when we started preaching to them, showing them the philosophy, the books and all the activities that we are doing all over the world, they were really, they were shocked. They said, "Oh, we never knew you were doing so much." And they said there is no other organization which is comprising of all the different kinds of activities, all kinds of welfare and spiritual activities that we are doing. If we just had many preaching parties and go all over and show people what all the activities that we are doing, people will accept us. They will know more about our movement. Otherwise right now they just think that we are just a kirtana group, bhajan mandali.
Prabhupada: [break] What did he speak?
Mahamsa: He spoke on different verses, one by one, of the twelfth chapter. But no conclusion. Every lecture there was no conclusion. So he leaves the people in a blank. There is no conclusion to any of his lectures. And his philosophy is "Krsna means black. Black means unknown. Therefore Krsna is unknown. Krsna is unknown. We cannot know Krsna."
Prabhupada: And what about others' version who knows Krsna? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu or all the acaryas? (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- November 21, 1975, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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