Melbourne, April 24, 1976
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Guru-krpa: [break] ...the jnani, to
try to seek out, is better than to be a karmi.Prabhupada: Hm?
Guru-krpa: The jnanis, they are trying to study Vedanta to find out what is the end. So that is better than being karmi.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guru-krpa: Even if they don't know the answer, they are trying to seek out.
Prabhupada: No, their answer is there, merging with the Supreme.
Guru-krpa: But again they must come back. That's not complete liberation.
Prabhupada: That means not complete knowledge.
Guru-krpa: So they have also stopped, ended in Brahman.
Prabhupada: Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah [SB 10.2.32].
Pusta Krsna: Practically, Srila Prabhupada, we see that we're dealing mostly with karmis, not with jnanis, in our preaching work.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: And they are simply interested in some immediate satisfaction.
Prabhupada: Karmis not. Vikarmi. Karmi, vikarmi, akarmi. We are dealing with vikarmi.
Pusta Krsna: Vikarma, oh. Prohibited actions.
Prabhupada: Yes. Karmis will not do anything sinful.
Guru-krpa: Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4].
Prabhupada: Vikarma, yes.
Devotee (2): So why do we call them karmis?
Prabhupada: Vikarmis, opposite karmi.
Devotee (2): So there's practically no karmis.
Pusta Krsna: Sinful.
Prabhupada: Sinful activities, duskrtinah. Vikarma. Therefore they will be punished in different forms of life. Therefore we find so many species of life, forms of life. This is punishment. But maya's curtain, they are thinking, "We are happy." Just like this tree is a punishment, but it has no sense that this is punishment.
Guru-krpa: Thinks he's happy.
Prabhupada: Standing happily for five thousand years.
Guru-krpa: Drinking only water.
Prabhupada: If you are asked to stand here for five hours, you'll feel most uncomfortable. But they are standing for five thousand years, no uncomfortable. This is punishment. Punishment is there, but unaware. So everyone is like that. Anyone in the material world, they are being punished in different degree, but unaware. That is maya's grace, that although he is punished, he cannot understand.
Guru-krpa: So they answer that "If you're happy, then what's wrong with that?"
Prabhupada: Yes, that class you are here. You go on with that happiness. But we are not satisfied with this. You are rascal, you are happy in that way, but we are not. That is the difference between you and me.
Guru-krpa: Happiness of the fool.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): Sometimes they say that pain is part of life.
Prabhupada: Yes. Let them say, because they will have to suffer. Unless they think like that, how they will suffer?
Devotee (2): What about on the hellish planets? Do they know they're suffering there?
Prabhupada: Just like to an animal, whipping is nothing. And for a man, to show the whip is sufficient. So there are different degrees of consciousness. Even a child, he'll be afraid by seeing the whip, and the animal, actually being whipped, doesn't care. That is the difference.
Guru-krpa: So either they take the sastra or the sastra.
Prabhupada: There is no question of sastra; it is sastra only. When there is no sastra there must be sastra. Argumentum baculum. When there is no logic, give him whip, that's all. So all these, they are awaiting whipping. They are being whipped. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27].
Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're being punished?
Prabhupada: You can understand, provided you have got the sense. If you are nonsense, you cannot understand. You cannot understand means you are nonsense. That is the difference between sense and nonsense. That I have already given, the example: the same whip, to the animal it is not suffering, but for a man, simply by seeing it is suffering. It is the question of sense. That is the difference between man and animal. The animal cannot understand that he is suffering. Man can understand. That is difference. If you do not understand, then you are animal. Now, here it is clearly said, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Guru-krpa: But they're so nonsense, they say, "Well, I can't remember..."
Prabhupada: But therefore I say animal. Nonsense means animal.
Passerby: (yells incoherently)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna! (laughter)
Pusta Krsna: They think we're funny; we think they are funny.
Devotee (1): Chanting Hare Krsna...
Prabhupada: [break] ...difference between animal and man. Therefore if one is not spiritually advanced or has no spiritual sense, he's animal. He is not human being. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. The verdict is already there. Sa eva go-kharah. He is nothing, no better than the cows and asses.
Devotee (3): Often the devotee thinks that he's more unhappy than the karmis because he knows he's unhappy.
Prabhupada: Then that means he is not a devotee.
Devotee (3): He's not a devotee.
Prabhupada: Yes. He's not devotee. Devotee means the first sign will be happy, brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. If he's not prasannatma, he's a rascal. He has not entered even devotional life. He's outside. That is the test. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. When he saw Visnu, he said, "Everything is all right. I don't want anything." Svamin krtartho 'smi. That is Vaisnava. And if he is still in want or unhappiness, that means he has no spiritual life at all. He is simply making a show.
Guru-krpa: Our unhappiness is our lamentation for our past sinful activity, and because we're not committing any more...
Prabhupada: That is another. That is another. That is to remember the terrible condition of karmis. (break -- in car) ...devotee who thinks unhappy because he is thinking, "I am not getting tea. I am not getting cigarette. There is restriction of illicit life, no meat-eating..." In this way he is unhappy.
Pusta Krsna: He cannot gratify his desire.
Prabhupada: Yes. Real devotee will think, "Oh, so many botheration I have now given up." Anarthopasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje [SB 1.7.6]. Bhakti-yoga means upasamam: "No more this, all this nonsense." That is bhakti-yoga, anartha-upasamam, completely given up. Bhakti-yogam adhoksaje, lokasya ajanato vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. But they do not know anything. They are increasing anartha. They are to give up cigarette. No, they are manufacturing new brand of cigarette and advertising, "Please come. This cigarette is better than the other." This is going on. This is karmi life. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. He has no sense that "I have smoke this cigarette and why, after another cigarette, the same thing?" But no. "I have enjoyed sex here. Why another sex?" He has no sense.
Pusta Krsna: Available in every species of life also.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is ajnana. Ajnana-timirandhasya. This big house, [break] ...so that you will work hard. And he used to do that. You bring money and he'll spend. And if you say, "Sir, we collected this money for this purpose." "Yes, he spent. You again collect." Somebody has paid that constructing temple, and he has spent for other purpose. Then, when the devotee will say, "Oh, what this man will say?" "That's all right. You collect again." [break] ...he'll get some money, he'll make some arrangement for doll exhibition and spend the all money.
Guru-krpa: Are they going to start on Mayapura building this year?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guru-krpa: That is beginning?
Prabhupada: Yes. Collect and spend. Collect and spend for Krsna, that is nice. I am therefore asking them to print books. I have got so much in the Book Fund. Print books. Let there be books stocked and no money stocked. [break] ...upasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje.
Guru-krpa: Prabhupada, we just got here.... Now we've just gotten one farm, two hundred acres. We're purchasing this next week. For eleven thousand dollars, two hundred acres.
Prabhupada: Very cheap.
Guru-krpa: And it is up north. It is just like India, very hot, and you can grow everything. Hot all year round.
Prabhupada: So grow fruits, flowers, grains. Keep some men. It is very nice. [break] ...stones(?), they can go.
Guru-krpa: Yes. They're aren't very attracted to it.
Pusta Krsna: A little over fifty dollars an acre? Very reasonable.
Prabhupada: Very cheap. Very cheap.
Guru-krpa: Less than that.
Prabhupada: That New Orleans, our farm? It was nice.
Guru-krpa: Mayapura is the best farm.
Prabhupada: Yes. And it will be still better when our plan is made.
Guru-krpa: We want to set the example this year by also giving a big donation to Mayapura and also building here.
Prabhupada: At the same time you see that it is not misspent. That is another defect, that our spending is not very frugal and spend like anything. There must be.... But in India they want to cheat you, and you are very expert, being cheated.
Pusta Krsna: It is our karma. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Not karma. You are working sincerely, that's all.
Guru-krpa: We are expert cheaters also. That's how we get the money.
Prabhupada: Yes. You are big cheaters. You don't cheat two rupees, three rupees. Two millions. (laughs) That is accusation, Alexander and the thief. The thief accused Alexander the Great that "What is the difference between you and me? I am a small thief; you are a big thief. That's all. Why you are punishing me? You are a big thief. You are doing same thing." Then he was let loose. "Yes, what is difference? (laughs) I am a big thief." [break] ...means Alexander the Great, actually he was great. Otherwise he is the emperor, and ordinary thief is accusing him and he said, "Yes, I am thief." He admitted. That is greatness. That is greatness. If he was not great, then he would have hanged him or punished him: "Oh, you are so.... You are accusing me?" But no, he accepted. That is greatness. Mistake is one fault, but to accept that "I have done mistake," that is greatness.
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that on the beach in Bombay.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Pusta Krsna: That when a man admits that he is a mudha, he is no more a mudha.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because he has understood that "What I am doing? I am mudha."
Guru-krpa: Lord Caitanya says, ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram patitam mam visame bhavambudhau [Cc. Antya 20.32, Siksastaka 5].
Prabhupada: Fell down. Yes.
Guru-krpa: One has to admit that he is fallen.
Prabhupada: This is the land you wanted to purchase?
Devotee (1): Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So, it is still unsold?
Devotee (1): No one can do anything with it now.
Prabhupada: Why?
Devotee (1): This neighborhood here, they will not allow any more than three stories to be built, no high rise.
Prabhupada: Oh. There cannot be any skyscraper building, so no capitalist will purchase.
Devotee (1): And no developer will use it just to make three-story flats because the land is too expensive. (end)
Guru-krpa: The jnanis, they are trying to study Vedanta to find out what is the end. So that is better than being karmi.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guru-krpa: Even if they don't know the answer, they are trying to seek out.
Prabhupada: No, their answer is there, merging with the Supreme.
Guru-krpa: But again they must come back. That's not complete liberation.
Prabhupada: That means not complete knowledge.
Guru-krpa: So they have also stopped, ended in Brahman.
Prabhupada: Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah [SB 10.2.32].
Pusta Krsna: Practically, Srila Prabhupada, we see that we're dealing mostly with karmis, not with jnanis, in our preaching work.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: And they are simply interested in some immediate satisfaction.
Prabhupada: Karmis not. Vikarmi. Karmi, vikarmi, akarmi. We are dealing with vikarmi.
Pusta Krsna: Vikarma, oh. Prohibited actions.
Prabhupada: Yes. Karmis will not do anything sinful.
Guru-krpa: Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4].
Prabhupada: Vikarma, yes.
Devotee (2): So why do we call them karmis?
Prabhupada: Vikarmis, opposite karmi.
Devotee (2): So there's practically no karmis.
Pusta Krsna: Sinful.
Prabhupada: Sinful activities, duskrtinah. Vikarma. Therefore they will be punished in different forms of life. Therefore we find so many species of life, forms of life. This is punishment. But maya's curtain, they are thinking, "We are happy." Just like this tree is a punishment, but it has no sense that this is punishment.
Guru-krpa: Thinks he's happy.
Prabhupada: Standing happily for five thousand years.
Guru-krpa: Drinking only water.
Prabhupada: If you are asked to stand here for five hours, you'll feel most uncomfortable. But they are standing for five thousand years, no uncomfortable. This is punishment. Punishment is there, but unaware. So everyone is like that. Anyone in the material world, they are being punished in different degree, but unaware. That is maya's grace, that although he is punished, he cannot understand.
Guru-krpa: So they answer that "If you're happy, then what's wrong with that?"
Prabhupada: Yes, that class you are here. You go on with that happiness. But we are not satisfied with this. You are rascal, you are happy in that way, but we are not. That is the difference between you and me.
Guru-krpa: Happiness of the fool.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): Sometimes they say that pain is part of life.
Prabhupada: Yes. Let them say, because they will have to suffer. Unless they think like that, how they will suffer?
Devotee (2): What about on the hellish planets? Do they know they're suffering there?
Prabhupada: Just like to an animal, whipping is nothing. And for a man, to show the whip is sufficient. So there are different degrees of consciousness. Even a child, he'll be afraid by seeing the whip, and the animal, actually being whipped, doesn't care. That is the difference.
Guru-krpa: So either they take the sastra or the sastra.
Prabhupada: There is no question of sastra; it is sastra only. When there is no sastra there must be sastra. Argumentum baculum. When there is no logic, give him whip, that's all. So all these, they are awaiting whipping. They are being whipped. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27].
Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're being punished?
Prabhupada: You can understand, provided you have got the sense. If you are nonsense, you cannot understand. You cannot understand means you are nonsense. That is the difference between sense and nonsense. That I have already given, the example: the same whip, to the animal it is not suffering, but for a man, simply by seeing it is suffering. It is the question of sense. That is the difference between man and animal. The animal cannot understand that he is suffering. Man can understand. That is difference. If you do not understand, then you are animal. Now, here it is clearly said, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Guru-krpa: But they're so nonsense, they say, "Well, I can't remember..."
Prabhupada: But therefore I say animal. Nonsense means animal.
Passerby: (yells incoherently)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna! (laughter)
Pusta Krsna: They think we're funny; we think they are funny.
Devotee (1): Chanting Hare Krsna...
Prabhupada: [break] ...difference between animal and man. Therefore if one is not spiritually advanced or has no spiritual sense, he's animal. He is not human being. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. The verdict is already there. Sa eva go-kharah. He is nothing, no better than the cows and asses.
Devotee (3): Often the devotee thinks that he's more unhappy than the karmis because he knows he's unhappy.
Prabhupada: Then that means he is not a devotee.
Devotee (3): He's not a devotee.
Prabhupada: Yes. He's not devotee. Devotee means the first sign will be happy, brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. If he's not prasannatma, he's a rascal. He has not entered even devotional life. He's outside. That is the test. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. When he saw Visnu, he said, "Everything is all right. I don't want anything." Svamin krtartho 'smi. That is Vaisnava. And if he is still in want or unhappiness, that means he has no spiritual life at all. He is simply making a show.
Guru-krpa: Our unhappiness is our lamentation for our past sinful activity, and because we're not committing any more...
Prabhupada: That is another. That is another. That is to remember the terrible condition of karmis. (break -- in car) ...devotee who thinks unhappy because he is thinking, "I am not getting tea. I am not getting cigarette. There is restriction of illicit life, no meat-eating..." In this way he is unhappy.
Pusta Krsna: He cannot gratify his desire.
Prabhupada: Yes. Real devotee will think, "Oh, so many botheration I have now given up." Anarthopasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje [SB 1.7.6]. Bhakti-yoga means upasamam: "No more this, all this nonsense." That is bhakti-yoga, anartha-upasamam, completely given up. Bhakti-yogam adhoksaje, lokasya ajanato vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. But they do not know anything. They are increasing anartha. They are to give up cigarette. No, they are manufacturing new brand of cigarette and advertising, "Please come. This cigarette is better than the other." This is going on. This is karmi life. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. He has no sense that "I have smoke this cigarette and why, after another cigarette, the same thing?" But no. "I have enjoyed sex here. Why another sex?" He has no sense.
Pusta Krsna: Available in every species of life also.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is ajnana. Ajnana-timirandhasya. This big house, [break] ...so that you will work hard. And he used to do that. You bring money and he'll spend. And if you say, "Sir, we collected this money for this purpose." "Yes, he spent. You again collect." Somebody has paid that constructing temple, and he has spent for other purpose. Then, when the devotee will say, "Oh, what this man will say?" "That's all right. You collect again." [break] ...he'll get some money, he'll make some arrangement for doll exhibition and spend the all money.
Guru-krpa: Are they going to start on Mayapura building this year?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guru-krpa: That is beginning?
Prabhupada: Yes. Collect and spend. Collect and spend for Krsna, that is nice. I am therefore asking them to print books. I have got so much in the Book Fund. Print books. Let there be books stocked and no money stocked. [break] ...upasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje.
Guru-krpa: Prabhupada, we just got here.... Now we've just gotten one farm, two hundred acres. We're purchasing this next week. For eleven thousand dollars, two hundred acres.
Prabhupada: Very cheap.
Guru-krpa: And it is up north. It is just like India, very hot, and you can grow everything. Hot all year round.
Prabhupada: So grow fruits, flowers, grains. Keep some men. It is very nice. [break] ...stones(?), they can go.
Guru-krpa: Yes. They're aren't very attracted to it.
Pusta Krsna: A little over fifty dollars an acre? Very reasonable.
Prabhupada: Very cheap. Very cheap.
Guru-krpa: Less than that.
Prabhupada: That New Orleans, our farm? It was nice.
Guru-krpa: Mayapura is the best farm.
Prabhupada: Yes. And it will be still better when our plan is made.
Guru-krpa: We want to set the example this year by also giving a big donation to Mayapura and also building here.
Prabhupada: At the same time you see that it is not misspent. That is another defect, that our spending is not very frugal and spend like anything. There must be.... But in India they want to cheat you, and you are very expert, being cheated.
Pusta Krsna: It is our karma. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Not karma. You are working sincerely, that's all.
Guru-krpa: We are expert cheaters also. That's how we get the money.
Prabhupada: Yes. You are big cheaters. You don't cheat two rupees, three rupees. Two millions. (laughs) That is accusation, Alexander and the thief. The thief accused Alexander the Great that "What is the difference between you and me? I am a small thief; you are a big thief. That's all. Why you are punishing me? You are a big thief. You are doing same thing." Then he was let loose. "Yes, what is difference? (laughs) I am a big thief." [break] ...means Alexander the Great, actually he was great. Otherwise he is the emperor, and ordinary thief is accusing him and he said, "Yes, I am thief." He admitted. That is greatness. That is greatness. If he was not great, then he would have hanged him or punished him: "Oh, you are so.... You are accusing me?" But no, he accepted. That is greatness. Mistake is one fault, but to accept that "I have done mistake," that is greatness.
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that on the beach in Bombay.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Pusta Krsna: That when a man admits that he is a mudha, he is no more a mudha.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because he has understood that "What I am doing? I am mudha."
Guru-krpa: Lord Caitanya says, ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram patitam mam visame bhavambudhau [Cc. Antya 20.32, Siksastaka 5].
Prabhupada: Fell down. Yes.
Guru-krpa: One has to admit that he is fallen.
Prabhupada: This is the land you wanted to purchase?
Devotee (1): Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So, it is still unsold?
Devotee (1): No one can do anything with it now.
Prabhupada: Why?
Devotee (1): This neighborhood here, they will not allow any more than three stories to be built, no high rise.
Prabhupada: Oh. There cannot be any skyscraper building, so no capitalist will purchase.
Devotee (1): And no developer will use it just to make three-story flats because the land is too expensive. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- April 24, 1976, Melbourne
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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