Los Angeles, June 3, 1976
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Ramesvara: Parasya saktir vividhaiva
sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Krsna has unlimited energies. Yesterday you
were explaining in your garden to that priest that Krsna, He says, Krsna says,
"I am the father of all living entities." And you were saying, "Who can
challenge this or deny it?" Now someone can say that there is contradiction, if
there is some contradiction in Krsna's statement, therefore...Prabhupada:
Who can deny? Who can contradict this? That is my challenge. The contradiction
is not valid. Who can contradict it? That is my challenge.
Ramesvara: Well, say in some philosophy...
Prabhupada: Just like a father, a real father can say, "I am the father." Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say "No, you are not father, he's father." No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced.
Ramesvara: No.
Prabhupada: Yes. Suppose real father says, "I am the father of this boy." Who will challenge it?
Ramesvara: Someone who does not believe my father.
Prabhupada: That means he's a rascal. But father cannot be changed. He does not know; he challenges, that's all. How the father can be changed? Father is one.
Ramesvara: We say that Krsna is all good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And then the materialist says, "If Krsna is all good, then how is there any evil?"
Prabhupada: Evil is you.
Ramesvara: But everything comes from Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything comes from.... Yes. If.... You have created a situation. So for your satisfaction, Krsna has given you the chance, but that is evil, what you have created.
Ramesvara: But I have this propensity because I am part of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. When you come under maya, you have got so many propensities. So as soon as you disobey Krsna, the maya is there. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare (Prema-vivarta), immediately. Just like darkness and light. As soon as you give up light, you come to darkness. There is no second alternative.
Ramesvara: Krsna is the friend of everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence?
Prabhupada: No, that is His.... Why not?
Ramesvara: Because it is not good for me.
Prabhupada: Then you are not perfectly Krsna's amsa. Krsna has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.
Ramesvara: But if it's not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Krsna give it to me anyway?
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore the demand is "You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good..." Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, "You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you all comforts."
Ramesvara: Krsna knows everything in the past, and everything in the future.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So when Krsna.... Krsna knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna's mercy.
Ramesvara: Even though it is bad for me.
Pusta Krsna: You say Krsna knows you are going to misuse your independence.
Ramesvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must.... Krsna is all-knowing.
Prabhupada: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the..., how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Krsna knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Krsna knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He's always.... Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence?
Pusta Krsna: So can you actually say that Krsna knows you'll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...he knows you will definitely misuse...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...you can use your independence properly, it's up to you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: But then that limits Krsna. If you say that Krsna did not know when I will misuse my indep.... or if I will...
Prabhupada: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence.
Ramesvara: But doesn't Krsna know if I will do it?
Prabhupada: Yes, because you are independent. That is the meaning.
Ramesvara: Marginal.
Prabhupada: What will the.... That will depend on.... And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he'll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition.
Ramesvara: But the lawyer doesn't...
Prabhupada: Why Krsna? Everyone knows. Suppose you have got this body; next body he's a dog. I can say you'll bark.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: What you'll do? That's all. What to speak of Krsna; I can say.
Pusta Krsna: That was Satsvarupa's question, Satsvarupa Maharaja's question.
Prabhupada: No, this is the answer. Krsna's position is always the same. He knows past, present and future.
Ramesvara: This is Karandhara's problem, this point of philosophy. He cannot understand it. His argument is that he is having so much trouble due to his sense attraction. And Krsna gave him the sense attraction, or Krsna gave him senses; now he is having trouble controlling his senses. But he argues that Krsna knows everything, so Krsna knew that he would have trouble controlling his senses; therefore why did Krsna give him senses?
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Ramesvara: He says Krsna is playing games.
Prabhupada: I have given you charge of this BBT, millions of dollars you are dealing, but it is not for your misuse. As soon as you misuse, that is your responsibility.
Ramesvara: Yes, but he says but still, you'll know that I'm going to misuse it.
Prabhupada: No. That Krsna knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that "Ramesvara is very good boy; let him be in charge." But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara's, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Krsna changed his position.
Ramesvara: He's so foolish, he blames...
Prabhupada: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Krsna's activities?
Ramesvara: That's the only answer.
Prabhupada: What Krsna is doing.... You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you'll suffer.
Ramesvara: His argument is that "I should never be allowed to misuse my independence."
Hari-sauri: There's no question of independence then.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly.
Ramesvara: He cannot understand that.
Prabhupada: He wants to become a machine.
Ramesvara: Yes, he'd rather be a machine and be in Krsna's service.
Prabhupada: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, "Come out." What to speak of you.
Hari-sauri: That's like an impersonalist. He doesn't want any individual existence.
Prabhupada: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. "I am everything." Therefore they are called mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15]. Mudha. He's being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says "I am God." He's becoming old, and he says that "I am God." Why you are becoming old? God is always young.
Ramesvara: He has another argument. He says that he's in the grip of maya.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So even though he wants to go back to Godhead, he cannot be freed from the influence of maya. Maya is keeping him.
Prabhupada: Unless you are fully surrender, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you cannot do it. Maya will not leave you.
Ramesvara: But in order to fully surrender, you have to be free from maya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Maya will keep you freed when you fully surrender. If you surrender to your wife and many women, maya will not give you.
Pusta Krsna: He's thinking freedom without Krsna.
Ramesvara: He says that maya keeps making him full of material desires.
Prabhupada: Yes, maya must keep you, must keep you, must keep you because you are not surrendering fully.
Ramesvara: Then he says that "As long as I have all these material urges, I cannot control them. The maya is insurmountable."
Prabhupada: No. Maya is not.... What maya is? Punishing, that's all.
Hari-sauri: The desire is ours; it's simply either Krsna or maya.
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to rectify your desires. That is bhakti.
Ramesvara: By chanting.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: How do you.... But then he says, "How do you develop the strength to keep chanting even when maya is making you so attracted?"
Prabhupada: That means your chanting is not pure. That is called aparadha. You are thinking that "I am chanting, I am purified," and finding out another woman, illicit sex. Then how you can be purified?
Hari-sauri: One argument a lot of them use is that, er,...
Prabhupada: No. It is prohibited, aparadha. If you chant with aparadha, offenses, then how you can be pure?
Hari-sauri: The process is to follow some rules and regulations, but they say, "How do you get the strength to follow the rules and regulations?"
Prabhupada: That is not your business, that is Krsna's business. You follow Krsna. If you cheat Krsna, then you'll be cheated. That's all. Krsna does not cheat you, but you create a situation to cheat yourself, and maya will make an arrangement so that you are cheated. This is maya's business.
Hari-sauri: So it's a question of honesty.
Prabhupada: Yes. You promise no illicit sex, no, before God, before spiritual master, before fire, and you play hypocrisy. So maya is not seeing that? How you can avoid? maya is always there. Yac caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam. You cannot escape the eyes of God in so many different agencies. And still He is personally sitting within your hearts. How you can escape? You may pretend to be a very great devotee, but the Person, Supreme, He is within yourself, He's seeing everything. No cheating with Him. Namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. "Oh, I am chanting Hare Krsna, so even I do something wrong, it will be adjusted." Adjusted, when you are sincere, by chance you have done something. That can be adjusted. But not intentionally. As soon as there is intentional cheating, that you'll have to suffer the effect.
Pusta Krsna: So someone who is in knowledge and commits sinful activity...
Prabhupada: Then he's...
Pusta Krsna: ...his position is very bad...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...compared to the innocent person, ignorant person.
Prabhupada: Yes. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14].
Ramesvara: But then again he argues like this, he says, "The living entity cannot do anything without the sanction of God. So I am desiring certain sinful activities, but why is Krsna sanctioning it?"
Prabhupada: Krsna does not sanction.
Ramesvara: Then how is it going on?
Prabhupada: But you insist, so Krsna, in disgust, says, "All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me." That's all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it?
Ramesvara: I never heard it.
Prabhupada: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: "No, don't touch." So, and he was.... So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that "Slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it. So he touched, "Tung." (sound imitation) Then I said, "Touch again?" "No!" (laughter) So it is like that.
Ramesvara: Oh. It is actually Krsna's mercy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: ...that He allows Him to feel the pain.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Purifies his desires.
Pusta Krsna: But he doesn't have to feel the pain if he's obedient.
Ramesvara: If he insists.
Prabhupada: He gives instruction. Just like I said, "Don't touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good." "No, no." "So all right, touch."
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that the more intelligent person can become obedient by hearing. The less intelligent person has to see, suffer.
Prabhupada: By practical experience. Dekhe sekhe thekhe sekhese. Tekhe sekhese(?) means he's a fool. Unless he comes to the actual position, he does not learn. And therefore sastra-caksus -- one who follows the sastra's instruction, he is safe. That is experienced already. (end)
Ramesvara: Well, say in some philosophy...
Prabhupada: Just like a father, a real father can say, "I am the father." Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say "No, you are not father, he's father." No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced.
Ramesvara: No.
Prabhupada: Yes. Suppose real father says, "I am the father of this boy." Who will challenge it?
Ramesvara: Someone who does not believe my father.
Prabhupada: That means he's a rascal. But father cannot be changed. He does not know; he challenges, that's all. How the father can be changed? Father is one.
Ramesvara: We say that Krsna is all good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And then the materialist says, "If Krsna is all good, then how is there any evil?"
Prabhupada: Evil is you.
Ramesvara: But everything comes from Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything comes from.... Yes. If.... You have created a situation. So for your satisfaction, Krsna has given you the chance, but that is evil, what you have created.
Ramesvara: But I have this propensity because I am part of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. When you come under maya, you have got so many propensities. So as soon as you disobey Krsna, the maya is there. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare (Prema-vivarta), immediately. Just like darkness and light. As soon as you give up light, you come to darkness. There is no second alternative.
Ramesvara: Krsna is the friend of everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence?
Prabhupada: No, that is His.... Why not?
Ramesvara: Because it is not good for me.
Prabhupada: Then you are not perfectly Krsna's amsa. Krsna has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.
Ramesvara: But if it's not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Krsna give it to me anyway?
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore the demand is "You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good..." Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, "You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you all comforts."
Ramesvara: Krsna knows everything in the past, and everything in the future.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So when Krsna.... Krsna knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna's mercy.
Ramesvara: Even though it is bad for me.
Pusta Krsna: You say Krsna knows you are going to misuse your independence.
Ramesvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must.... Krsna is all-knowing.
Prabhupada: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the..., how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Krsna knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Krsna knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He's always.... Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence?
Pusta Krsna: So can you actually say that Krsna knows you'll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...he knows you will definitely misuse...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...you can use your independence properly, it's up to you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: But then that limits Krsna. If you say that Krsna did not know when I will misuse my indep.... or if I will...
Prabhupada: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence.
Ramesvara: But doesn't Krsna know if I will do it?
Prabhupada: Yes, because you are independent. That is the meaning.
Ramesvara: Marginal.
Prabhupada: What will the.... That will depend on.... And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he'll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition.
Ramesvara: But the lawyer doesn't...
Prabhupada: Why Krsna? Everyone knows. Suppose you have got this body; next body he's a dog. I can say you'll bark.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: What you'll do? That's all. What to speak of Krsna; I can say.
Pusta Krsna: That was Satsvarupa's question, Satsvarupa Maharaja's question.
Prabhupada: No, this is the answer. Krsna's position is always the same. He knows past, present and future.
Ramesvara: This is Karandhara's problem, this point of philosophy. He cannot understand it. His argument is that he is having so much trouble due to his sense attraction. And Krsna gave him the sense attraction, or Krsna gave him senses; now he is having trouble controlling his senses. But he argues that Krsna knows everything, so Krsna knew that he would have trouble controlling his senses; therefore why did Krsna give him senses?
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Ramesvara: He says Krsna is playing games.
Prabhupada: I have given you charge of this BBT, millions of dollars you are dealing, but it is not for your misuse. As soon as you misuse, that is your responsibility.
Ramesvara: Yes, but he says but still, you'll know that I'm going to misuse it.
Prabhupada: No. That Krsna knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that "Ramesvara is very good boy; let him be in charge." But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara's, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Krsna changed his position.
Ramesvara: He's so foolish, he blames...
Prabhupada: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Krsna's activities?
Ramesvara: That's the only answer.
Prabhupada: What Krsna is doing.... You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you'll suffer.
Ramesvara: His argument is that "I should never be allowed to misuse my independence."
Hari-sauri: There's no question of independence then.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly.
Ramesvara: He cannot understand that.
Prabhupada: He wants to become a machine.
Ramesvara: Yes, he'd rather be a machine and be in Krsna's service.
Prabhupada: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, "Come out." What to speak of you.
Hari-sauri: That's like an impersonalist. He doesn't want any individual existence.
Prabhupada: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. "I am everything." Therefore they are called mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15]. Mudha. He's being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says "I am God." He's becoming old, and he says that "I am God." Why you are becoming old? God is always young.
Ramesvara: He has another argument. He says that he's in the grip of maya.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So even though he wants to go back to Godhead, he cannot be freed from the influence of maya. Maya is keeping him.
Prabhupada: Unless you are fully surrender, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you cannot do it. Maya will not leave you.
Ramesvara: But in order to fully surrender, you have to be free from maya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Maya will keep you freed when you fully surrender. If you surrender to your wife and many women, maya will not give you.
Pusta Krsna: He's thinking freedom without Krsna.
Ramesvara: He says that maya keeps making him full of material desires.
Prabhupada: Yes, maya must keep you, must keep you, must keep you because you are not surrendering fully.
Ramesvara: Then he says that "As long as I have all these material urges, I cannot control them. The maya is insurmountable."
Prabhupada: No. Maya is not.... What maya is? Punishing, that's all.
Hari-sauri: The desire is ours; it's simply either Krsna or maya.
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to rectify your desires. That is bhakti.
Ramesvara: By chanting.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: How do you.... But then he says, "How do you develop the strength to keep chanting even when maya is making you so attracted?"
Prabhupada: That means your chanting is not pure. That is called aparadha. You are thinking that "I am chanting, I am purified," and finding out another woman, illicit sex. Then how you can be purified?
Hari-sauri: One argument a lot of them use is that, er,...
Prabhupada: No. It is prohibited, aparadha. If you chant with aparadha, offenses, then how you can be pure?
Hari-sauri: The process is to follow some rules and regulations, but they say, "How do you get the strength to follow the rules and regulations?"
Prabhupada: That is not your business, that is Krsna's business. You follow Krsna. If you cheat Krsna, then you'll be cheated. That's all. Krsna does not cheat you, but you create a situation to cheat yourself, and maya will make an arrangement so that you are cheated. This is maya's business.
Hari-sauri: So it's a question of honesty.
Prabhupada: Yes. You promise no illicit sex, no, before God, before spiritual master, before fire, and you play hypocrisy. So maya is not seeing that? How you can avoid? maya is always there. Yac caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam. You cannot escape the eyes of God in so many different agencies. And still He is personally sitting within your hearts. How you can escape? You may pretend to be a very great devotee, but the Person, Supreme, He is within yourself, He's seeing everything. No cheating with Him. Namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. "Oh, I am chanting Hare Krsna, so even I do something wrong, it will be adjusted." Adjusted, when you are sincere, by chance you have done something. That can be adjusted. But not intentionally. As soon as there is intentional cheating, that you'll have to suffer the effect.
Pusta Krsna: So someone who is in knowledge and commits sinful activity...
Prabhupada: Then he's...
Pusta Krsna: ...his position is very bad...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...compared to the innocent person, ignorant person.
Prabhupada: Yes. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14].
Ramesvara: But then again he argues like this, he says, "The living entity cannot do anything without the sanction of God. So I am desiring certain sinful activities, but why is Krsna sanctioning it?"
Prabhupada: Krsna does not sanction.
Ramesvara: Then how is it going on?
Prabhupada: But you insist, so Krsna, in disgust, says, "All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me." That's all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it?
Ramesvara: I never heard it.
Prabhupada: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: "No, don't touch." So, and he was.... So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that "Slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it. So he touched, "Tung." (sound imitation) Then I said, "Touch again?" "No!" (laughter) So it is like that.
Ramesvara: Oh. It is actually Krsna's mercy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: ...that He allows Him to feel the pain.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Purifies his desires.
Pusta Krsna: But he doesn't have to feel the pain if he's obedient.
Ramesvara: If he insists.
Prabhupada: He gives instruction. Just like I said, "Don't touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good." "No, no." "So all right, touch."
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that the more intelligent person can become obedient by hearing. The less intelligent person has to see, suffer.
Prabhupada: By practical experience. Dekhe sekhe thekhe sekhese. Tekhe sekhese(?) means he's a fool. Unless he comes to the actual position, he does not learn. And therefore sastra-caksus -- one who follows the sastra's instruction, he is safe. That is experienced already. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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