Toronto, June 18, 1976
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Satsvarupa: ...professor who's going
to see you tonight, Professor O'Connell, he wrote a book review of Dr. Judah's
book about our movement. And he said it was a very sympathetic book, Dr.
Judah's, he said, and a little bit too sympathetic on one point. He made his
statement. He thinks that our movement, the way we deny the flesh, he said, he
called, "denying the flesh," it tends to make us a little cold in our relations
to each other, and people in the Hare Krsna movement are denying the natural
affection that is somehow connected with the flesh.Prabhupada: No, we want
to, what is called, reject that society. We cannot become sympathetic with
everyone. That is not our policy. Asat-sanga-tyaga vaisnava acara. Caitanya
Mahaprabhu, when He was asked what is the general behavior of a Vaisnava, He
said that the first thing is that you should give up bad company. So these are
bad company. We cannot have any sympathy. We cannot make any compromise with
everyone. That is not possible. The modern scientists, they have made
quarantine? Quarantine? What is that?
Hari-sauri: Separation.
Prabhupada: Hah.
Hari-sauri: If someone has a disease, they separate.
Prabhupada: Those who are infected, they should be separated. You cannot make any compromise.
Satsvarupa: His point was that even amongst ourselves, even amongst the devotees, he says, there is not enough expression of love, because we don't allow...
Prabhupada: Well, then.... Trying to be perfect.
Satsvarupa: Flesh, skin disease.
Prabhupada: Perfect does not mean that they should eat meat and drink wine. That does not mean. What is his objection?
Satsvarupa: I think what it comes down to is that he objects that we are against illicit sex.
Prabhupada: Oh. (laughter) That means he is accustomed.
Jagadisa: These professors sit around, discuss topics of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and drink wine.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Satsvarupa: And their discussion is very blasphemous. This Dr. Dimmock, he's made much investigation on the Six Gosvamis, and he's read all manuscripts, and he's always going to India and studying Rupa Gosvami and Lord Caitanya, but everything is extremely blasphemous that he writes. So in both ways, in their habits and whatever they write. The Library Party men, they become friendly to these professors, but only to use them more or less, that they'll accept our books, despite themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes, that we must do. [break] ...policy is when we go to a, what is called, a bad character, we don't go to associate with him, but to give him our association. Therefore we must be strong and very pure, so that your association, they will be benefited. For the preachers, isvare tad-adhinesu balisesu dvisatsu, the four behavior. Isvara, tad-adhinesu, devotees, balisesu, innocent, and dvisatsu, those who are envious. So a devotee, those who are preachers, they, prema, loving God, making friendship with devotee, and those who are innocent, to deliver. And those who are envious, reject. [break]
Jagadisa: ...professor, Srila Prabhupada, named Motilal, is a Bengali Vaisnava. But now he drinks and eats meat. [break]
Prabhupada: ...objection of Professor O'Connell?
Satsvarupa: He said that we don't, we deny expression of love through the body. Just like the grhasthas are not allowed, except to have children, to have sex, and brahmacaris, not at all. So by denying, these are natural ways to express love, he says, and by denying them, the people in this movement become somewhat cold and don't have the experience of love.
Prabhupada: Love? This is love or lust?
Satsvarupa: He says there's a definite connection between the flesh and love, and you can't deny it, he said. I argued with him, but that was his viewpoint, that love is expressed through the flesh.
Prabhupada: Then how he has become a doctor in Vaisnava philosophy?
Devotee: He's a sick doctor.
Pusta Krsna: That would mean that the dog is a great lover.
Prabhupada: No, in the Caitanya-caritamrta there is explanation, what is the difference between lust and love.
Satsvarupa: I told him if you observe the devotees, you'll see they have very affectionate loving dealings with one another, but it's not based on the flesh. We don't have to...
Prabhupada: That is lust. Sahajiya. Lust is going on as love. [break] ...reviewed Dr. Judah's book?
Satsvarupa: Yes. Basically, he said it was a good book and that our movement is an important movement. But he made that one objection.
Devotee: Then how does he explain how so many devotees can live together peacefully and happily if there's no reciprocation of love? Materialists can't even live together with their wife for very long.
Pusta Krsna: [break] Srila Prabhupada, they're simply interested in human flesh. They're not concerned about all the animal slaughter that's going on. They don't take objection to the animal slaughter, the animal flesh. But when it comes to the human flesh, because they think they can enjoy, then they take some concern.
Prabhupada: They are taking human flesh also. Gradually they will be accustomed to take human flesh. Carnivore also. [break] ...Mahaprabhu said, asat eka stri-sangi, stri-sangi, those who are attached to woman, he's asat.
Pusta Krsna: [break] The question might arise that a jnani is someone who is aware of his spiritual nature, that he's not this body, aham brahmasmi. Then the karmi is one who is, dehatma-buddhi, in the bodily concept of life, and he's desiring so many materialistic things. So how can it be that the karmi, who is after some material benefit, if he approaches Krsna, he can be better off than the jnani?
Prabhupada: Because he has approached Krsna.
Pusta Krsna: Even he may be in the bodily concept?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That will be rectified. Ksipram bhavati dharmatma. Huh? What is that? Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [Bg. 9.31]. Api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak [Bg. 9.30]. When one has come to the fire, some way or other, he'll be warm, gradually. That is the.... He has come to the right path. [break] ...kamad bhayat, krodhat. Either.... Anyone who comes to Krsna.... Just like gopis, they were captivated. They were village girls. They did not know what is God, what is Brahman, nothing. But they were captivated: "Krsna is very beautiful boy." That's all. Even they forgot their own husbands. [break] ...or other, we have to develop our intense love of Krsna. Then life is perfect. [break] (in car) One who is accepting this body as self, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. They are making paper?
Devotee: Tar.
Prabhupada: From tar, you find paper?
Visvakarma: Yes. All different types of packaging have (indistinct) as well.
Pusta Krsna: They keep salt in here for...
Prabhupada: Salt?
Pusta Krsna: When it snows on the highways, trucks come and they pour salt so it keeps the snow melting. More friction on the road for the tires.
Prabhupada: Wine and cigarettes, just like here you can purchase by slot. What is called?
Hari-sauri: Machine.
Prabhupada: Machine. Yes. You pay and get cigarette and tin can. There are many boxes like that on the street, public street. And they pass urine on the road. There is no restriction, standing apart.
Hari-sauri: Like dogs and cats.
Prabhupada: Every few steps, there is a shop, young girls, wine, and a man is sitting.
Hari-sauri: Germany is very famous for its beer festivals. Germany. It's very famous for it's beer festivals.
Prabhupada: Beer. Yes. Sadananda told me. He was drinking beer in barrels. (laughs) He told me.
Hari-sauri: They even have a mug so big that it takes one gallon of beer at a time.
Prabhupada: And they drink.
Hari-sauri: Yes. It's possible in the summer season, one of the big tourist attraction is to go to these big beer festivals. And you can go, they last about a fortnight, one week or a fortnight, and you can travel down the Rhine Valley and move every week to a new beer festival, like that, all through the summer. It's a big tourist thing. (end)
Hari-sauri: Separation.
Prabhupada: Hah.
Hari-sauri: If someone has a disease, they separate.
Prabhupada: Those who are infected, they should be separated. You cannot make any compromise.
Satsvarupa: His point was that even amongst ourselves, even amongst the devotees, he says, there is not enough expression of love, because we don't allow...
Prabhupada: Well, then.... Trying to be perfect.
Satsvarupa: Flesh, skin disease.
Prabhupada: Perfect does not mean that they should eat meat and drink wine. That does not mean. What is his objection?
Satsvarupa: I think what it comes down to is that he objects that we are against illicit sex.
Prabhupada: Oh. (laughter) That means he is accustomed.
Jagadisa: These professors sit around, discuss topics of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and drink wine.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Satsvarupa: And their discussion is very blasphemous. This Dr. Dimmock, he's made much investigation on the Six Gosvamis, and he's read all manuscripts, and he's always going to India and studying Rupa Gosvami and Lord Caitanya, but everything is extremely blasphemous that he writes. So in both ways, in their habits and whatever they write. The Library Party men, they become friendly to these professors, but only to use them more or less, that they'll accept our books, despite themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes, that we must do. [break] ...policy is when we go to a, what is called, a bad character, we don't go to associate with him, but to give him our association. Therefore we must be strong and very pure, so that your association, they will be benefited. For the preachers, isvare tad-adhinesu balisesu dvisatsu, the four behavior. Isvara, tad-adhinesu, devotees, balisesu, innocent, and dvisatsu, those who are envious. So a devotee, those who are preachers, they, prema, loving God, making friendship with devotee, and those who are innocent, to deliver. And those who are envious, reject. [break]
Jagadisa: ...professor, Srila Prabhupada, named Motilal, is a Bengali Vaisnava. But now he drinks and eats meat. [break]
Prabhupada: ...objection of Professor O'Connell?
Satsvarupa: He said that we don't, we deny expression of love through the body. Just like the grhasthas are not allowed, except to have children, to have sex, and brahmacaris, not at all. So by denying, these are natural ways to express love, he says, and by denying them, the people in this movement become somewhat cold and don't have the experience of love.
Prabhupada: Love? This is love or lust?
Satsvarupa: He says there's a definite connection between the flesh and love, and you can't deny it, he said. I argued with him, but that was his viewpoint, that love is expressed through the flesh.
Prabhupada: Then how he has become a doctor in Vaisnava philosophy?
Devotee: He's a sick doctor.
Pusta Krsna: That would mean that the dog is a great lover.
Prabhupada: No, in the Caitanya-caritamrta there is explanation, what is the difference between lust and love.
Satsvarupa: I told him if you observe the devotees, you'll see they have very affectionate loving dealings with one another, but it's not based on the flesh. We don't have to...
Prabhupada: That is lust. Sahajiya. Lust is going on as love. [break] ...reviewed Dr. Judah's book?
Satsvarupa: Yes. Basically, he said it was a good book and that our movement is an important movement. But he made that one objection.
Devotee: Then how does he explain how so many devotees can live together peacefully and happily if there's no reciprocation of love? Materialists can't even live together with their wife for very long.
Pusta Krsna: [break] Srila Prabhupada, they're simply interested in human flesh. They're not concerned about all the animal slaughter that's going on. They don't take objection to the animal slaughter, the animal flesh. But when it comes to the human flesh, because they think they can enjoy, then they take some concern.
Prabhupada: They are taking human flesh also. Gradually they will be accustomed to take human flesh. Carnivore also. [break] ...Mahaprabhu said, asat eka stri-sangi, stri-sangi, those who are attached to woman, he's asat.
Pusta Krsna: [break] The question might arise that a jnani is someone who is aware of his spiritual nature, that he's not this body, aham brahmasmi. Then the karmi is one who is, dehatma-buddhi, in the bodily concept of life, and he's desiring so many materialistic things. So how can it be that the karmi, who is after some material benefit, if he approaches Krsna, he can be better off than the jnani?
Prabhupada: Because he has approached Krsna.
Pusta Krsna: Even he may be in the bodily concept?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That will be rectified. Ksipram bhavati dharmatma. Huh? What is that? Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [Bg. 9.31]. Api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak [Bg. 9.30]. When one has come to the fire, some way or other, he'll be warm, gradually. That is the.... He has come to the right path. [break] ...kamad bhayat, krodhat. Either.... Anyone who comes to Krsna.... Just like gopis, they were captivated. They were village girls. They did not know what is God, what is Brahman, nothing. But they were captivated: "Krsna is very beautiful boy." That's all. Even they forgot their own husbands. [break] ...or other, we have to develop our intense love of Krsna. Then life is perfect. [break] (in car) One who is accepting this body as self, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. They are making paper?
Devotee: Tar.
Prabhupada: From tar, you find paper?
Visvakarma: Yes. All different types of packaging have (indistinct) as well.
Pusta Krsna: They keep salt in here for...
Prabhupada: Salt?
Pusta Krsna: When it snows on the highways, trucks come and they pour salt so it keeps the snow melting. More friction on the road for the tires.
Prabhupada: Wine and cigarettes, just like here you can purchase by slot. What is called?
Hari-sauri: Machine.
Prabhupada: Machine. Yes. You pay and get cigarette and tin can. There are many boxes like that on the street, public street. And they pass urine on the road. There is no restriction, standing apart.
Hari-sauri: Like dogs and cats.
Prabhupada: Every few steps, there is a shop, young girls, wine, and a man is sitting.
Hari-sauri: Germany is very famous for its beer festivals. Germany. It's very famous for it's beer festivals.
Prabhupada: Beer. Yes. Sadananda told me. He was drinking beer in barrels. (laughs) He told me.
Hari-sauri: They even have a mug so big that it takes one gallon of beer at a time.
Prabhupada: And they drink.
Hari-sauri: Yes. It's possible in the summer season, one of the big tourist attraction is to go to these big beer festivals. And you can go, they last about a fortnight, one week or a fortnight, and you can travel down the Rhine Valley and move every week to a new beer festival, like that, all through the summer. It's a big tourist thing. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- June 18, 1976, Toronto
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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