Mayapura, February 6, 1976
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Hrdayananda: ...absorbed in thinking
that, for example, in this material world a sunset is very nice or something is
very nice. But if, for example, in Mayapura is a devotee free to, for example,
enjoy the, all the scenery without...Prabhupada: Do you think Mayapura is
material world?
Hrdayananda: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Why you are asking?
Hrdayananda: That is what I was thinking, that this is...
Prabhupada: Dhama. Therefore it is called dhama. Dhama means not material world. Goloka-dhama, Vrndavana-dhama. So dhama is not material world. (aside:) Not to go away. [break] ...visible with these eyes, similarly, dhama also is not visible with these eyes. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
Jagadisa: [break] In Toronto, Srila Prabhupada... When we purchased the new church in Toronto we sold all the church pews. And Billy Graham... Do you know who Billy Graham is? He's an Evangelist preacher in the United States. He sometimes went to that church to preach. So when we sold the pews we would tell people that "Billy Graham sat in this pew," and they would become excited to purchase.
Prabhupada: So it was sold in good price?
Jagadisa: Yes.
Prabhupada: (laughs) That's nice.
Hrdayananda: As you are always saying, Prabhupada, these people are not becoming purified. This one man who Jagadisa mentioned, he's the most famous Christian preacher practically in the Western world. Now he's becoming older, about sixty. Recently they asked him that "If you could live your life again, would you live the same life or a different life?" So he said, "I am very sorry because I spent too much of my time preaching. I should have spent more time with my family."
Tamala Krsna: Oh, he actually said that?
Hrdayananda: Yes. At the end of life this is his...
Tamala Krsna: He's the foremost Christian preacher in the world right now, Prabhupada.
Hrdayananda: He said, "I accepted too many invitations to go preach. I should have spent time with my family."
Tamala Krsna: That will make him more popular, and they'll say he's more religious.
Hrdayananda: [break] ...already left to preach.
Prabhupada: Oh, that's nice. [break] Eh? Dhunvanti, agham dhunvanti kartsnyena niharam iva bhaskarah.(?) This is Krsna. In one second He can make it purified. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah [Bg. 18.66]. Simply surrender.
Tamala Krsna: It seems like our desire not to surrender is very powerful because Krsna is so...
Prabhupada: Not powerful. Yes, powerful.
Tamala Krsna: Krsna is so powerful and yet our nonsense is so strong that we can resist such a powerful force as Krsna's love.
Prabhupada: Now the whole sky clear, hundreds of miles. [break] ...all right? Where is in-charge? [break] ...and clan spirit. Aborigines, they fight amongst their clans.
Hrdayananda: Aborigines?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Africa.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada? You wrote in a letter to Bhagavan... You said that originally the Europeans had Aryan-type culture but they have become degraded.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They are still Aryan. Europeans are Aryan, Indo-Aryan. That is admitted in history.
Hrdayananda: You said that they became degraded by associating, by bad...
Prabhupada: Yes, by association with these aborigines.
Hrdayananda: Who were the aborigines they associated with?
Prabhupada: Everywhere there were aborigines. In India there are still aborigines, adivasi.
Tamala Krsna: You were saying, Prabhupada, the Huns.
Prabhupada: Huns.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Huns. They were considered like that?
Prabhupada: Yes. Huns are also lower than the sudras, candalas, dog-eaters, animal-eaters. And these Europeans historians, they take the aborigines, their original father.
Tamala Krsna: Their what, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Original father.
Tamala Krsna: You said, "Yes, they are your original father."
Prabhupada: No, no. "The aborigines, the naked jangalis, they were original person." Do they not?
Tamala Krsna: Before that, there was the caveman.
Prabhupada: Ah, caveman. That's... Caveman. That is aborigine.
Tamala Krsna: And before the caveman was the missing link.
Prabhupada: And he has known missing link.
Tamala Krsna: They don't know who they're missing, 'cause he's missing.
Prabhupada: Just see the imagination, fanatic imagination. He is creating...
Tamala Krsna: Species.
Prabhupada: ...a theory, a species.
Tamala Krsna: Missing link species. And they have... They have models of this missing link.
Prabhupada: They know it; still "missing."
Tamala Krsna: Although it's missing...
Prabhupada: "Missing" means they know only, "Oh, he knows."
Hrdayananda: When I was preaching in California, one very famous anthropologist came to speak there, and he gave a new theory about the origin of the species. So he said... Before the audience he said that "Actually we have very little evidence of this theory."
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hrdayananda: He said that "We have very little evidence for this theory," but he said that "All of you should not be disturbed because our previous theory, we had no evidence whatsoever. [laughter] So this is an improvement."
Prabhupada: He admitted. "Previous theory, that was nonsense," and still the nonsense going on.
Tamala Krsna: "So don't be disturbed."
Prabhupada: Yes. "So you are dealing with all nonsense. Don't be disappointed."
Hrdayananda: Another professor, he was very, a world famous geneticist, professor of genetics. I remember, when I was a student there, he was always trying to prove that there was no God. That was his mission. So he was in so much anxiety-he's an older man -- that he would simply stand up every day and shake. During the whole class he was actually shaking with anxiety. He could hardly speak. He was famous scientist.
Prabhupada: Why he was shaking?
Hrdayananda: He was in so much anxiety. He was very, very nervous. He would just shake, always trying to prove there is no God.
Prabhupada: [break] ...their society, and they are advocating, "No temple or Deity worship." So one boy, so he was a member of this society. So there is Sitala-mata, the goddess of smallpox. So he had some trouble in the house, smallpox. So he thought of going to the Sitala-mata's temple. So he's entering the temple and seeing in this way, "Mother, I am your devotee but they will tax me. Therefore I am going out." (laughter) Hare Krsna. So this man, he is afraid of God, but he has to preach there is no God. So he was feeble.
Hrdayananda: In every class he would smoke at least four or five cigarettes. He was so nervous. [break]
Prabhupada: The living entity is victimized, and in this life you can adventure to conquer over it. This is human life. The cats and dogs, they cannot fight with maya, but a human being, he can fight. So if we don't fight, we don't take that adventure, then we remain cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they fight amongst themselves but not with the maya. So aborigines, although they have got features of human being, they are no more than the cats and dogs. So they also fight amongst themselves. They do not know that the fighting spirit should be utilized to declare war against maya. That is possible in human life. Athato brahma jijnasa. This fighting is philosophy. "What is the ultimate cause? What is Brahman? What I am?" Fighting against darkness, sleeping. Kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole. Everyone is sleeping on the lap of maya. Now, this human form of life is not for sleeping but for awakening and fight with maya. That is human life. [break] You were reading the other day why the sun changes color after rising?
Jagadisa: The refraction of the light rays.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hrdayananda: He said that the light rays pass through the clouds, and this diverts the light rays in different ways.
Prabhupada: So where is the cloud?
Jagadisa: Not necessarily a cloud.
Dayananda: Through the atmosphere, the air.
Indian man (1): Atmosphere density is different, so it changes.
Prabhupada: Density?
Jagadisa: When it is directly overhead...
Prabhupada: Oh, it is fixed up. Why it should change?
Jagadisa: When it's directly overhead, there is...
Prabhupada: No, no, overhead means it has gone. If it is fixed, why it should change color?
Tamala Krsna: We have gone; it has not.
Jagadisa: It changes color to us. It doesn't change color. To our eyes...
Prabhupada: Why?
Jagadisa: ...the color changes.
Prabhupada: Why?
Jagadisa: Because our eyes are not so..., are blunt.
Hrdayananda: They say because the light rays...
Prabhupada: No, no. If the sun is fixed, so why our eyes will change? If we see in the beginning, as you see, it is red, and it is fixed, it should remain red.
Hrdayananda: They say the atmosphere changes.
Jagadisa: The light of the sun filters through the...
Prabhupada: Atmosphere changes? Where is atmosphere changes? It is the same atmosphere. We saw in red and the atmosphere same.
Jagadisa: Angle.
Hari-sauri: According to your angle of vision.
Indian man (1): Medium. Medium. Prabhupada, there is...
Prabhupada: Yes, you are all scientists I know. Please talk with one body. What is that?
Jagadisa: There's an angle...
Prabhupada: (laughter) All rascals. Scientists means all rascals. That I know. You haven't got to explain. I am trying to understand that if the sun is... Suppose a red light is fixed. So red light is always red light. Why it should be white? What is the cause?
Jagadisa: They say there's a spec...
Prabhupada: "They say." What you say? What you have understood?
Jagadisa: There's a spectrum of different colors which, combined together, is white light, but when the light bends, the different colors of light bend at different angles so that the...
Prabhupada: Why the light bends? I am a crude man; I am not scientist. I say I see one red light there. So it is always red. Why it should be white?
Jagadisa: But the sunlight...
Prabhupada: Again "sunlight." Please explain this. The light is fixed, and it is reddish. So why it should change?
Jagadisa: Only part of the light reaches us, the red part, not all the...
Prabhupada: Anyway, the color changes.
Jagadisa: Because in the beginning, when the sun is red, only the red part of the light spectrum reaches our eyes.
Prabhupada: Oh. That means it is moving. Red part is gone. Then white part comes.
Jagadisa: Then, when the rest of the light reaches our eyes it becomes white.
Tamala Krsna: They say we are moving. It is not moving; we are moving.
Prabhupada: I am moving.
Tamala Krsna: The earth is turning. The sun is...
Hrdayananda: They also say the sun is moving.
Tamala Krsna: But very slowly. They say the earth is turning, so you see the sun as moving, but actually you are moving. Just like if you are in a car and you are moving, it may appear that just as... Sometimes you can see another object...
Prabhupada: But that's all... But why the color should change? That is point. You may move...
Tamala Krsna: Because, he's explaining, that light is seen when it bends... White light when it bends at different angles...
Prabhupada: That is only applicable when you accept that the sun is moving. Therefore atmosphere is going...
Tamala Krsna: No, the earth is moving.
Jagadisa: They say the earth is turning. Therefore at a certain point the sun is actually below the horizon, but part of the sun's light, the red spectral, the red light of the sun, comes over the horizon and so the sun appears...
Tamala Krsna: Red, but actually it's not reddish; it's white or yellow, whatever.
Prabhupada: Actually it is white, that's all right, but if you see one fixed thing, a color, practical experience is the color does not change if it is fixed up.
Tamala Krsna: Supposing you are... Supposing there's a white light, and you are situated here, and in front of you is a screen with many colors, and you are moving different ways along this screen. Sometimes you are looking through a green, sometimes... in that way although the light is fixed up, because you are moving behind different colors...
Prabhupada: So where is that screen?
Jagadisa: That's called the spectrum.
Prabhupada: Spectrum. So where is that? That is also finished?
Hrdayananda: The atmosphere is.
Dayananda: The atmosphere is the screen.
Jagadisa: As the spectrum hits the atmosphere, it bends.
Dayananda: Just like a prism, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Then the speed of the earth changes. Eh? In the morning you see the sun is very slowly rising, either sun's speed or your speed. But now you see it is rising very quickly.
Jagadisa: That's explained that because the sun... Actually you can see it before it appears over the horizon because the light rays reach our eyes before the sun actually comes up.
Hrdayananda: But that's only eight minutes' difference. That won't explain it, because the light rays reach in eight minutes. That won't explain it. That would only cause an eight-minute difference.
Jagadisa: No, no, no. No, it's not because of the time it takes. It's because of... The light rays bend. So they bend towards us before the sun comes up.
Tamala Krsna: You can't actually see the sun. You're seeing only a...
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada said, "But it rises so quickly."
Jagadisa: Huh? Then, once it comes up over the horizon, we see it rise at its normal pace.
Hrdayananda: Doesn't explain. Word jugglery. [break]
Prabhupada: ...fixed. [break]
Indian man (1): Fixed?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (1): Is not moving around the earth?
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: It's further away from us than the sun and twice as big as the sun. Ask Prabhupada how big is the moon.
Indian man (1): Prabhupada, how big is this moon? Is much more bigger than this?
Prabhupada: You can see in the Fifth Canto. There is.
Hrdayananda: That means that maya is just like a magician.
Prabhupada: Yes, certainly. Therefore it is called maya. Maya means magician. Maya means... maya means affection, maya means illusion, magician, so many things -- strength, potency.
Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, what is your explanation why the sun changes colors?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jagadisa: What is your explanation as to why the sun changes colors?
Prabhupada: Sun is moving. You are seeing through some color. Then it is color.
Jagadisa: Seeing through some color.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like there are... In your window there is glass, red. So sun is passing; you say sun red. And again it has come; it is white. That is our...
Tamala Krsna: So the scientists say the same thing except they say that the earth is moving, not the sun. Same explanation you have given for the colors, they give, except that they say that the earth that is moving, not the sun. They wouldn't accept that point as a proof that the sun is moving.
Prabhupada: No, sun is moving because the earth and the sun... The distance is the same, but you can calculate the distance from the rising up to the... It is millions, millions of miles. So unless the sun is moving, the earth cannot move so swiftly.
Jagadisa: They are always the same distance apart?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jagadisa: The earth and the sun are always the same distance apart?
Prabhupada: Same distance is to be supposed according to your theory, because sun is fixed.
Jagadisa: According to our theory.
Prabhupada: Yes. The same distance. But you calculate that how quickly it comes. You calculate the distance.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, how can the earth move so quickly?
Jagadisa: The earth is just spinning around.
Hrdayananda: Yes, they would say that that is not from the..., that is not from the earth moving around the sun. That is from the earth rotating.
Tamala Krsna: Rotating on its axis.
Hrdayananda: And turning different sides, different faces to the sun.
Tamala Krsna: And that's possible. That speed the earth could do.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: That much speed the earth could do, simply to turn around on its own...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hrdayananda: That's rotation.
Tamala Krsna: That's rotation, it's not an orbit.
Jagadisa: Like a top, spinning.
Indian man (1): From its axis.
Hrdayananda: So they say the earth is spinning around so fast.
Tamala Krsna: Why doesn't it fall off? That's another point, Prabhupada. The earth is spinning, they say, but it's tilted on one side. So why it doesn't fall over?
Prabhupada: This earth?
Tamala Krsna: Scientists say the earth is like this.
Indian man (1): Yes. Making an angle, Prabhupada, spinning around its axis.
Tamala Krsna: My question is how something doesn't fall, just fall over? Like a top. If you spin a top, when it starts spinning on its side it falls over.
Jagadisa: But so far space is concerned, they don't see that there's a top or a bottom where it can fall.
Tamala Krsna: Then why do they say axis? Axis means there's a top and a bottom.
Prabhupada: [ ...by mental platform, on the mental plane.
Jagadisa: When I was in the university I took a course...
Prabhupada: [break] Yes. The same example. This was spoken by one scientist in Delhi, that if a man has learned how to imitate the dog barking, people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. But he won't hear the dog, real dog, barking. So we are like that. We are trying to imitate dog.
Tamala Krsna: Is it here, Jayapataka? Yes, here.
Prabhupada: [break] ...fective, what you can see from the observatory?
Tamala Krsna: That's why they use a telescope, to make their eyes perfect.
Prabhupada: Everything is imperfect.
Hrdayananda: Telescope also imperfect.
Tamala Krsna: With the help of the telescope, then their eyes become perfect to an extent.
Prabhupada: To ext... That is not perfect. As soon as you say, "to extent," that means imperfect. Perfect to the point, that is perfect.
Tamala Krsna: Limitedly perfect.
Prabhupada: That is not perfect.
Tamala Krsna: Your philosophy will be very unpopular with the general masses, Prabhupada, because you are condemning everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes, because they are fools and rascals.
Hrdayananda: No, but Prabhupada presents it so nicely that people will like it.
Indian man (1): Especially...
Tamala Krsna: That's true, Prabhupada. Sometimes you call them "rascal" to their face, and they like it.
Jagadisa: That's what happened to us.
Indian man (1): Especially Indians. Lot of people like strong words. This rascal means...
Tamala Krsna: In America it's not such a strong word. In America that word "rascal" is not so strong as in India. In India when you use that word, they become very offended.
Indian man (1): Yes. Very strong.
Dayananda: In America they like to be rascal.
Hrdayananda: In America if the father chastises the child, he calls him "rascal."
Tamala Krsna: It has a nice connotation.
Prabhupada: [break] mayara adhikara. Now the ruling of this, what is called, fog is finished.
Tamala Krsna: Night also.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: Night also?
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything darkness finished. The sky is clear.
Hrdayananda: The fog was just on the ground. It wasn't up...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hrdayananda: I saw in the morning the fog was low but it was not high up.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it is finished, high or low. Explain that there is such-and-such things in the sun, eh? They say?
Hrdayananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then why do they not manufacture another imitation sun? If they know what is the composition.
Hrdayananda: They're so puffed up that they think that actually the credit is to them for discovering. Just like they...
Prabhupada: Where is discovering? It is covering.
Hrdayananda: They give the example that if a tree falls in the forest and there is no man there to hear it, then actually it has not fallen.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hrdayananda: This is a philosophical example which is... This is the most common example they give, that if a tree falls in the forest but there is no man there, there is no one there to hear it, then actually it has never happened. Unless someone perceives it, then it does not exist. So they feel that when they discover something, at that time it begins to exist by their becoming conscious of it.
Prabhupada: What is that explanation?
Tamala Krsna: So if you're sleeping and I kill you and you weren't conscious that I was killing you, then you're still alive?
Prabhupada: You are not killed. Then it comes as a... You can go to the court: "It is not killed."
Hrdayananda: They will say that... No, I will say. I will take the part of the rascal.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hrdayananda: I'll be the rascal. "No, actually I am killed, because even though I may not be conscious of it, someone is conscious of it. As long as someone must be... Just when something... It is necessary that someone be conscious of it."
Tamala Krsna: No, supposing in the woods. You're in the woods and I kill you during your sleep. There is no other human being there.
Hrdayananda: "But you were conscious of it. You were conscious of my death, so therefore my death is a fact."
Prabhupada: Then in the forest there are no animals?
Hrdayananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: They cannot... They are not conscious?
Hrdayananda: Well, if an animal hears, that's all right also. As long as someone is conscious.
Prabhupada: In the forest there are many animals, hundreds and thousands. They are conscious that tree has fallen. Then?
Hrdayananda: Then it would also be acceptable. As long as some living being has...
Prabhupada: Then what is this? Everywhere someone is conscious. There is no vacancy. So this is useless talking, fool's talk.
Hrdayananda: In the outer space there is no consciousness.
Prabhupada: Who says? The fools say. There are consciousness. There are so many birds flying from one planet...
Hrdayananda: Higher up.
Prabhupada: Higher means it is higher for you because you are so dwarf. You are so dwarfed, you'll find that this tree is very big tree. You see? A small dwarf man, a pigmy, he'll say, "Oh, it is a big tree." So it is all relative. What is called? Relative world? Higher and lower, this is all relativity. You are so low that you see a tiny thing very high. It is due to your lowerness. Where there is no tree, these trees will be considered: "Oh, very high tree." So your scientists and your appreciator, all, they are like tiny dwarfs. What do they know about the universal affair? That is their fault. They are so small... That, the same example, Dr. Frog, calculating Atlantic Ocean. This is the fault. They do not consider their position. Just like there are thousands of ants. We can immediately kill them. And they are thinking they are very big, the ants, that "We are very busy. We are very big." So these rascals' position is like that. If the devatas in higher planets like, all the population of this material, this earth, they can kill like this-finish. Just like we can kill the ants.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, in the Sixth Canto, second part, I haven't read it yet, but I saw a picture of a big demon who was fighting, and everyone else was just like little ants.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That was described in some English book, the man?
Hari-sauri: Gulliver's Travels.
Bhavananda: Gulliver's Travels.
Prabhupada: Ha, ha, yes. These rascals, they do not know there is Gulliver. They are thinking very big.
Bhavananda: Also, Srila Prabhupada, when there is some natural calamity... Like I read in the newspaper, four thousand people were killed immediately in Guatemala.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhavananda: That is also the demigods?
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, greater than you, you admit it, demigods or God or anything. But why you are thinking yourself so big? That is your fault. That is foolishness. I am a big man amongst a small, tiny living entities. But why you are thinking you are biggest of all, you can understand everything? That is your fault. This is the folly of the conditioned soul. He is nothing. He has no value. Still, he is thinking he is very great. Everything is big and small relatively. Just like here if one man has got 100,000 rupees, he's a big man. But what is 100,000 rupees in America? Nothing.
Tamala Krsna: One year's salary for an average man.
Hrdayananda: A worker.
Prabhupada: Yes. Lakhpati. Here they call, lakhpati. Lakhpati means owner of 100,000 rupees.
Tamala Krsna: Lakhpati.
Prabhupada: So what is this lakhpati there?
Tamala Krsna: This fog appears just like an ocean, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. Oh, yes.
Tamala Krsna: It looks just like the ocean.
Prabhupada: Frozen. Frozen ocean. Means they are defeated; they are coming down. By the sun they are defeated. They were high. "Now go down." Now it will be finished.
Tamala Krsna: Burnt off. [break] What is the way to draw the line between the following three things: blasphemy, fault-finding, and calling a spade a spade?
Prabhupada: A spade a spade... Just like I am saying that "What you are? You are small fig only." That is reality. And what is the other?
Tamala Krsna: The other is fault-finding and...
Prabhupada: Fault-finding, that is another fault, that... vranam icchanti, maksika vranam icchanti, madhum icchanti(?) Just like the flies, they are finding out where is sore, and the bees, they are finding out where there is honey. So two animals, they have got two business: fault-finding and collecting the good things. These are two... Just like creature. They are two classes. Similarly, there are many rascals who are simply fault-finding.
Tamala Krsna: And blasphemy?
Prabhupada: Blasphemy means you have good qualities, but still, I am defaming you.
Tamala Krsna: So the saintly person tends to overlook the bad qualities and see the good ones.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Like Krsna's dealing with Putana.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hundreds and thousands of miles, this fog, simply by two minutes' light of the sun -- finished. [break] ...working. If there was no sun, then so many ships are standing on the ocean. The cars, they are "bong, bong, bong, bong," so many disturbances. You see? You cannot do anything. Daivi hy esa gunamayi [Bg. 7.14]. What you can do? Immediately He can kill you all. Thousands of planets immediately finished. Bring your science to protect them. No, not possible. Mare krsna rakhe ke. When Krsna desires to vanquish, nobody can save you. Finished. Still, these rascals say, "There is no God." Simply rascals. At least expose these rascals. We have no power to kill them, but at least we can expose them. That is also great service.
Hrdayananda: Sometimes, Prabhupada, when we expose them, their argument is, "Oh, you are a saintly person. Why are you criticizing me?"
Prabhupada: No, it is not criticizing. It is opening your eyes. You are blind, you are thinking yourself as very big, so we are opening eyes. You are not big. You are not even pig or fig. That is... ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya. You are blind with ignorance, so we are trying to open your eyes. See things as they are. It is favoring you. It is not criticizing you. [break]...words, vibhu, the great, and anu, the small. So these rascals, they do not understand these two important words, "God is great; I am small." They think, "I am as good as God." This is the folly. [break] ...English proverb? "Where angels dare not, the fools rush in." Eh?
Hrdayananda: "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
Prabhupada: So the angels, Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, they are offering their obeisances, and these rascals are claiming, "I am God." How great rascals they are. Siva-virinci-nutam [SB 11.5.33]. Siva-virinci-nutam. Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, they are offering their respects, and these things are: "I am equal with God." This Mayavada philosophy. Mudhas.
Dayananda: Srila Prabhupada, that tendency to be puffed up seems to be so strong, as soon as they get just a little bit of so-called qualification, then they... Everyone is becoming puffed up, even great personalities like Lord Indra and Lord Brahma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dayananda: What to speak of all the...
Prabhupada: Lord Brahma is also one of the living entities.
Dayananda: So how is it possible that... We're so insignificant, but at the same time we become so puffed up? How is it possible for us...?
Prabhupada: That is material consciousness, that you are nothing you are thinking very big. That is material consciousness. And as soon as you become Krsna conscious, you'll simply think, "Krsna is great; we are nothing, insignificant." That is Krsna consciousness. And so long you think that you are independent of Krsna -- you are also another Krsna -- then you are fool, rascal. Mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25].
Hrdayananda: That's our madness.
Prabhupada: Madness. The whole world is going on on this foolish understanding. Therefore they have been described, mudha, all rascals. Anyone who is thinking, "There is no God, there is no Krsna, it may be He is impersonal, there is no personality, and I am equal to Him" -- these are all rascals, fools.
Dayananda: So actually there is no way to become detached.
Prabhupada: The only way is that you become Krsna conscious.
Dayananda: Except through Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mam eva ye prapadyante. You surrender to Krsna and everything will be clear, just like as soon as the sun rises, everything is clear, no covering. That is our propaganda, that you become Krsna conscious; then you become fully aware of everything. Otherwise you remain rascal, fools, gadha, asses. If you prefer to remain asses, you can do so, but we are servant of Krsna. We must preach real, reality.
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become...
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births' practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma [Bg. 7.19]. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare.
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11], zero, all other, that "I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king" -- all these are thinking like that, they're all nonsense. "I am servant of Krsna" -- that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
Dayananda: So because that person is very rare, then, I guess, the only way we can possibly know how to become like that is to find one pure devotee and exactly follow that way of Krsna
Hrdayananda: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Why you are asking?
Hrdayananda: That is what I was thinking, that this is...
Prabhupada: Dhama. Therefore it is called dhama. Dhama means not material world. Goloka-dhama, Vrndavana-dhama. So dhama is not material world. (aside:) Not to go away. [break] ...visible with these eyes, similarly, dhama also is not visible with these eyes. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
Jagadisa: [break] In Toronto, Srila Prabhupada... When we purchased the new church in Toronto we sold all the church pews. And Billy Graham... Do you know who Billy Graham is? He's an Evangelist preacher in the United States. He sometimes went to that church to preach. So when we sold the pews we would tell people that "Billy Graham sat in this pew," and they would become excited to purchase.
Prabhupada: So it was sold in good price?
Jagadisa: Yes.
Prabhupada: (laughs) That's nice.
Hrdayananda: As you are always saying, Prabhupada, these people are not becoming purified. This one man who Jagadisa mentioned, he's the most famous Christian preacher practically in the Western world. Now he's becoming older, about sixty. Recently they asked him that "If you could live your life again, would you live the same life or a different life?" So he said, "I am very sorry because I spent too much of my time preaching. I should have spent more time with my family."
Tamala Krsna: Oh, he actually said that?
Hrdayananda: Yes. At the end of life this is his...
Tamala Krsna: He's the foremost Christian preacher in the world right now, Prabhupada.
Hrdayananda: He said, "I accepted too many invitations to go preach. I should have spent time with my family."
Tamala Krsna: That will make him more popular, and they'll say he's more religious.
Hrdayananda: [break] ...already left to preach.
Prabhupada: Oh, that's nice. [break] Eh? Dhunvanti, agham dhunvanti kartsnyena niharam iva bhaskarah.(?) This is Krsna. In one second He can make it purified. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah [Bg. 18.66]. Simply surrender.
Tamala Krsna: It seems like our desire not to surrender is very powerful because Krsna is so...
Prabhupada: Not powerful. Yes, powerful.
Tamala Krsna: Krsna is so powerful and yet our nonsense is so strong that we can resist such a powerful force as Krsna's love.
Prabhupada: Now the whole sky clear, hundreds of miles. [break] ...all right? Where is in-charge? [break] ...and clan spirit. Aborigines, they fight amongst their clans.
Hrdayananda: Aborigines?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Africa.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada? You wrote in a letter to Bhagavan... You said that originally the Europeans had Aryan-type culture but they have become degraded.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They are still Aryan. Europeans are Aryan, Indo-Aryan. That is admitted in history.
Hrdayananda: You said that they became degraded by associating, by bad...
Prabhupada: Yes, by association with these aborigines.
Hrdayananda: Who were the aborigines they associated with?
Prabhupada: Everywhere there were aborigines. In India there are still aborigines, adivasi.
Tamala Krsna: You were saying, Prabhupada, the Huns.
Prabhupada: Huns.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Huns. They were considered like that?
Prabhupada: Yes. Huns are also lower than the sudras, candalas, dog-eaters, animal-eaters. And these Europeans historians, they take the aborigines, their original father.
Tamala Krsna: Their what, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Original father.
Tamala Krsna: You said, "Yes, they are your original father."
Prabhupada: No, no. "The aborigines, the naked jangalis, they were original person." Do they not?
Tamala Krsna: Before that, there was the caveman.
Prabhupada: Ah, caveman. That's... Caveman. That is aborigine.
Tamala Krsna: And before the caveman was the missing link.
Prabhupada: And he has known missing link.
Tamala Krsna: They don't know who they're missing, 'cause he's missing.
Prabhupada: Just see the imagination, fanatic imagination. He is creating...
Tamala Krsna: Species.
Prabhupada: ...a theory, a species.
Tamala Krsna: Missing link species. And they have... They have models of this missing link.
Prabhupada: They know it; still "missing."
Tamala Krsna: Although it's missing...
Prabhupada: "Missing" means they know only, "Oh, he knows."
Hrdayananda: When I was preaching in California, one very famous anthropologist came to speak there, and he gave a new theory about the origin of the species. So he said... Before the audience he said that "Actually we have very little evidence of this theory."
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hrdayananda: He said that "We have very little evidence for this theory," but he said that "All of you should not be disturbed because our previous theory, we had no evidence whatsoever. [laughter] So this is an improvement."
Prabhupada: He admitted. "Previous theory, that was nonsense," and still the nonsense going on.
Tamala Krsna: "So don't be disturbed."
Prabhupada: Yes. "So you are dealing with all nonsense. Don't be disappointed."
Hrdayananda: Another professor, he was very, a world famous geneticist, professor of genetics. I remember, when I was a student there, he was always trying to prove that there was no God. That was his mission. So he was in so much anxiety-he's an older man -- that he would simply stand up every day and shake. During the whole class he was actually shaking with anxiety. He could hardly speak. He was famous scientist.
Prabhupada: Why he was shaking?
Hrdayananda: He was in so much anxiety. He was very, very nervous. He would just shake, always trying to prove there is no God.
Prabhupada: [break] ...their society, and they are advocating, "No temple or Deity worship." So one boy, so he was a member of this society. So there is Sitala-mata, the goddess of smallpox. So he had some trouble in the house, smallpox. So he thought of going to the Sitala-mata's temple. So he's entering the temple and seeing in this way, "Mother, I am your devotee but they will tax me. Therefore I am going out." (laughter) Hare Krsna. So this man, he is afraid of God, but he has to preach there is no God. So he was feeble.
Hrdayananda: In every class he would smoke at least four or five cigarettes. He was so nervous. [break]
Prabhupada: The living entity is victimized, and in this life you can adventure to conquer over it. This is human life. The cats and dogs, they cannot fight with maya, but a human being, he can fight. So if we don't fight, we don't take that adventure, then we remain cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they fight amongst themselves but not with the maya. So aborigines, although they have got features of human being, they are no more than the cats and dogs. So they also fight amongst themselves. They do not know that the fighting spirit should be utilized to declare war against maya. That is possible in human life. Athato brahma jijnasa. This fighting is philosophy. "What is the ultimate cause? What is Brahman? What I am?" Fighting against darkness, sleeping. Kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole. Everyone is sleeping on the lap of maya. Now, this human form of life is not for sleeping but for awakening and fight with maya. That is human life. [break] You were reading the other day why the sun changes color after rising?
Jagadisa: The refraction of the light rays.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hrdayananda: He said that the light rays pass through the clouds, and this diverts the light rays in different ways.
Prabhupada: So where is the cloud?
Jagadisa: Not necessarily a cloud.
Dayananda: Through the atmosphere, the air.
Indian man (1): Atmosphere density is different, so it changes.
Prabhupada: Density?
Jagadisa: When it is directly overhead...
Prabhupada: Oh, it is fixed up. Why it should change?
Jagadisa: When it's directly overhead, there is...
Prabhupada: No, no, overhead means it has gone. If it is fixed, why it should change color?
Tamala Krsna: We have gone; it has not.
Jagadisa: It changes color to us. It doesn't change color. To our eyes...
Prabhupada: Why?
Jagadisa: ...the color changes.
Prabhupada: Why?
Jagadisa: Because our eyes are not so..., are blunt.
Hrdayananda: They say because the light rays...
Prabhupada: No, no. If the sun is fixed, so why our eyes will change? If we see in the beginning, as you see, it is red, and it is fixed, it should remain red.
Hrdayananda: They say the atmosphere changes.
Jagadisa: The light of the sun filters through the...
Prabhupada: Atmosphere changes? Where is atmosphere changes? It is the same atmosphere. We saw in red and the atmosphere same.
Jagadisa: Angle.
Hari-sauri: According to your angle of vision.
Indian man (1): Medium. Medium. Prabhupada, there is...
Prabhupada: Yes, you are all scientists I know. Please talk with one body. What is that?
Jagadisa: There's an angle...
Prabhupada: (laughter) All rascals. Scientists means all rascals. That I know. You haven't got to explain. I am trying to understand that if the sun is... Suppose a red light is fixed. So red light is always red light. Why it should be white? What is the cause?
Jagadisa: They say there's a spec...
Prabhupada: "They say." What you say? What you have understood?
Jagadisa: There's a spectrum of different colors which, combined together, is white light, but when the light bends, the different colors of light bend at different angles so that the...
Prabhupada: Why the light bends? I am a crude man; I am not scientist. I say I see one red light there. So it is always red. Why it should be white?
Jagadisa: But the sunlight...
Prabhupada: Again "sunlight." Please explain this. The light is fixed, and it is reddish. So why it should change?
Jagadisa: Only part of the light reaches us, the red part, not all the...
Prabhupada: Anyway, the color changes.
Jagadisa: Because in the beginning, when the sun is red, only the red part of the light spectrum reaches our eyes.
Prabhupada: Oh. That means it is moving. Red part is gone. Then white part comes.
Jagadisa: Then, when the rest of the light reaches our eyes it becomes white.
Tamala Krsna: They say we are moving. It is not moving; we are moving.
Prabhupada: I am moving.
Tamala Krsna: The earth is turning. The sun is...
Hrdayananda: They also say the sun is moving.
Tamala Krsna: But very slowly. They say the earth is turning, so you see the sun as moving, but actually you are moving. Just like if you are in a car and you are moving, it may appear that just as... Sometimes you can see another object...
Prabhupada: But that's all... But why the color should change? That is point. You may move...
Tamala Krsna: Because, he's explaining, that light is seen when it bends... White light when it bends at different angles...
Prabhupada: That is only applicable when you accept that the sun is moving. Therefore atmosphere is going...
Tamala Krsna: No, the earth is moving.
Jagadisa: They say the earth is turning. Therefore at a certain point the sun is actually below the horizon, but part of the sun's light, the red spectral, the red light of the sun, comes over the horizon and so the sun appears...
Tamala Krsna: Red, but actually it's not reddish; it's white or yellow, whatever.
Prabhupada: Actually it is white, that's all right, but if you see one fixed thing, a color, practical experience is the color does not change if it is fixed up.
Tamala Krsna: Supposing you are... Supposing there's a white light, and you are situated here, and in front of you is a screen with many colors, and you are moving different ways along this screen. Sometimes you are looking through a green, sometimes... in that way although the light is fixed up, because you are moving behind different colors...
Prabhupada: So where is that screen?
Jagadisa: That's called the spectrum.
Prabhupada: Spectrum. So where is that? That is also finished?
Hrdayananda: The atmosphere is.
Dayananda: The atmosphere is the screen.
Jagadisa: As the spectrum hits the atmosphere, it bends.
Dayananda: Just like a prism, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Then the speed of the earth changes. Eh? In the morning you see the sun is very slowly rising, either sun's speed or your speed. But now you see it is rising very quickly.
Jagadisa: That's explained that because the sun... Actually you can see it before it appears over the horizon because the light rays reach our eyes before the sun actually comes up.
Hrdayananda: But that's only eight minutes' difference. That won't explain it, because the light rays reach in eight minutes. That won't explain it. That would only cause an eight-minute difference.
Jagadisa: No, no, no. No, it's not because of the time it takes. It's because of... The light rays bend. So they bend towards us before the sun comes up.
Tamala Krsna: You can't actually see the sun. You're seeing only a...
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada said, "But it rises so quickly."
Jagadisa: Huh? Then, once it comes up over the horizon, we see it rise at its normal pace.
Hrdayananda: Doesn't explain. Word jugglery. [break]
Prabhupada: ...fixed. [break]
Indian man (1): Fixed?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (1): Is not moving around the earth?
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: It's further away from us than the sun and twice as big as the sun. Ask Prabhupada how big is the moon.
Indian man (1): Prabhupada, how big is this moon? Is much more bigger than this?
Prabhupada: You can see in the Fifth Canto. There is.
Hrdayananda: That means that maya is just like a magician.
Prabhupada: Yes, certainly. Therefore it is called maya. Maya means magician. Maya means... maya means affection, maya means illusion, magician, so many things -- strength, potency.
Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, what is your explanation why the sun changes colors?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jagadisa: What is your explanation as to why the sun changes colors?
Prabhupada: Sun is moving. You are seeing through some color. Then it is color.
Jagadisa: Seeing through some color.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like there are... In your window there is glass, red. So sun is passing; you say sun red. And again it has come; it is white. That is our...
Tamala Krsna: So the scientists say the same thing except they say that the earth is moving, not the sun. Same explanation you have given for the colors, they give, except that they say that the earth that is moving, not the sun. They wouldn't accept that point as a proof that the sun is moving.
Prabhupada: No, sun is moving because the earth and the sun... The distance is the same, but you can calculate the distance from the rising up to the... It is millions, millions of miles. So unless the sun is moving, the earth cannot move so swiftly.
Jagadisa: They are always the same distance apart?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jagadisa: The earth and the sun are always the same distance apart?
Prabhupada: Same distance is to be supposed according to your theory, because sun is fixed.
Jagadisa: According to our theory.
Prabhupada: Yes. The same distance. But you calculate that how quickly it comes. You calculate the distance.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, how can the earth move so quickly?
Jagadisa: The earth is just spinning around.
Hrdayananda: Yes, they would say that that is not from the..., that is not from the earth moving around the sun. That is from the earth rotating.
Tamala Krsna: Rotating on its axis.
Hrdayananda: And turning different sides, different faces to the sun.
Tamala Krsna: And that's possible. That speed the earth could do.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: That much speed the earth could do, simply to turn around on its own...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hrdayananda: That's rotation.
Tamala Krsna: That's rotation, it's not an orbit.
Jagadisa: Like a top, spinning.
Indian man (1): From its axis.
Hrdayananda: So they say the earth is spinning around so fast.
Tamala Krsna: Why doesn't it fall off? That's another point, Prabhupada. The earth is spinning, they say, but it's tilted on one side. So why it doesn't fall over?
Prabhupada: This earth?
Tamala Krsna: Scientists say the earth is like this.
Indian man (1): Yes. Making an angle, Prabhupada, spinning around its axis.
Tamala Krsna: My question is how something doesn't fall, just fall over? Like a top. If you spin a top, when it starts spinning on its side it falls over.
Jagadisa: But so far space is concerned, they don't see that there's a top or a bottom where it can fall.
Tamala Krsna: Then why do they say axis? Axis means there's a top and a bottom.
Prabhupada: [ ...by mental platform, on the mental plane.
Jagadisa: When I was in the university I took a course...
Prabhupada: [break] Yes. The same example. This was spoken by one scientist in Delhi, that if a man has learned how to imitate the dog barking, people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. But he won't hear the dog, real dog, barking. So we are like that. We are trying to imitate dog.
Tamala Krsna: Is it here, Jayapataka? Yes, here.
Prabhupada: [break] ...fective, what you can see from the observatory?
Tamala Krsna: That's why they use a telescope, to make their eyes perfect.
Prabhupada: Everything is imperfect.
Hrdayananda: Telescope also imperfect.
Tamala Krsna: With the help of the telescope, then their eyes become perfect to an extent.
Prabhupada: To ext... That is not perfect. As soon as you say, "to extent," that means imperfect. Perfect to the point, that is perfect.
Tamala Krsna: Limitedly perfect.
Prabhupada: That is not perfect.
Tamala Krsna: Your philosophy will be very unpopular with the general masses, Prabhupada, because you are condemning everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes, because they are fools and rascals.
Hrdayananda: No, but Prabhupada presents it so nicely that people will like it.
Indian man (1): Especially...
Tamala Krsna: That's true, Prabhupada. Sometimes you call them "rascal" to their face, and they like it.
Jagadisa: That's what happened to us.
Indian man (1): Especially Indians. Lot of people like strong words. This rascal means...
Tamala Krsna: In America it's not such a strong word. In America that word "rascal" is not so strong as in India. In India when you use that word, they become very offended.
Indian man (1): Yes. Very strong.
Dayananda: In America they like to be rascal.
Hrdayananda: In America if the father chastises the child, he calls him "rascal."
Tamala Krsna: It has a nice connotation.
Prabhupada: [break] mayara adhikara. Now the ruling of this, what is called, fog is finished.
Tamala Krsna: Night also.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: Night also?
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything darkness finished. The sky is clear.
Hrdayananda: The fog was just on the ground. It wasn't up...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hrdayananda: I saw in the morning the fog was low but it was not high up.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it is finished, high or low. Explain that there is such-and-such things in the sun, eh? They say?
Hrdayananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then why do they not manufacture another imitation sun? If they know what is the composition.
Hrdayananda: They're so puffed up that they think that actually the credit is to them for discovering. Just like they...
Prabhupada: Where is discovering? It is covering.
Hrdayananda: They give the example that if a tree falls in the forest and there is no man there to hear it, then actually it has not fallen.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hrdayananda: This is a philosophical example which is... This is the most common example they give, that if a tree falls in the forest but there is no man there, there is no one there to hear it, then actually it has never happened. Unless someone perceives it, then it does not exist. So they feel that when they discover something, at that time it begins to exist by their becoming conscious of it.
Prabhupada: What is that explanation?
Tamala Krsna: So if you're sleeping and I kill you and you weren't conscious that I was killing you, then you're still alive?
Prabhupada: You are not killed. Then it comes as a... You can go to the court: "It is not killed."
Hrdayananda: They will say that... No, I will say. I will take the part of the rascal.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hrdayananda: I'll be the rascal. "No, actually I am killed, because even though I may not be conscious of it, someone is conscious of it. As long as someone must be... Just when something... It is necessary that someone be conscious of it."
Tamala Krsna: No, supposing in the woods. You're in the woods and I kill you during your sleep. There is no other human being there.
Hrdayananda: "But you were conscious of it. You were conscious of my death, so therefore my death is a fact."
Prabhupada: Then in the forest there are no animals?
Hrdayananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: They cannot... They are not conscious?
Hrdayananda: Well, if an animal hears, that's all right also. As long as someone is conscious.
Prabhupada: In the forest there are many animals, hundreds and thousands. They are conscious that tree has fallen. Then?
Hrdayananda: Then it would also be acceptable. As long as some living being has...
Prabhupada: Then what is this? Everywhere someone is conscious. There is no vacancy. So this is useless talking, fool's talk.
Hrdayananda: In the outer space there is no consciousness.
Prabhupada: Who says? The fools say. There are consciousness. There are so many birds flying from one planet...
Hrdayananda: Higher up.
Prabhupada: Higher means it is higher for you because you are so dwarf. You are so dwarfed, you'll find that this tree is very big tree. You see? A small dwarf man, a pigmy, he'll say, "Oh, it is a big tree." So it is all relative. What is called? Relative world? Higher and lower, this is all relativity. You are so low that you see a tiny thing very high. It is due to your lowerness. Where there is no tree, these trees will be considered: "Oh, very high tree." So your scientists and your appreciator, all, they are like tiny dwarfs. What do they know about the universal affair? That is their fault. They are so small... That, the same example, Dr. Frog, calculating Atlantic Ocean. This is the fault. They do not consider their position. Just like there are thousands of ants. We can immediately kill them. And they are thinking they are very big, the ants, that "We are very busy. We are very big." So these rascals' position is like that. If the devatas in higher planets like, all the population of this material, this earth, they can kill like this-finish. Just like we can kill the ants.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, in the Sixth Canto, second part, I haven't read it yet, but I saw a picture of a big demon who was fighting, and everyone else was just like little ants.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That was described in some English book, the man?
Hari-sauri: Gulliver's Travels.
Bhavananda: Gulliver's Travels.
Prabhupada: Ha, ha, yes. These rascals, they do not know there is Gulliver. They are thinking very big.
Bhavananda: Also, Srila Prabhupada, when there is some natural calamity... Like I read in the newspaper, four thousand people were killed immediately in Guatemala.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhavananda: That is also the demigods?
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, greater than you, you admit it, demigods or God or anything. But why you are thinking yourself so big? That is your fault. That is foolishness. I am a big man amongst a small, tiny living entities. But why you are thinking you are biggest of all, you can understand everything? That is your fault. This is the folly of the conditioned soul. He is nothing. He has no value. Still, he is thinking he is very great. Everything is big and small relatively. Just like here if one man has got 100,000 rupees, he's a big man. But what is 100,000 rupees in America? Nothing.
Tamala Krsna: One year's salary for an average man.
Hrdayananda: A worker.
Prabhupada: Yes. Lakhpati. Here they call, lakhpati. Lakhpati means owner of 100,000 rupees.
Tamala Krsna: Lakhpati.
Prabhupada: So what is this lakhpati there?
Tamala Krsna: This fog appears just like an ocean, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. Oh, yes.
Tamala Krsna: It looks just like the ocean.
Prabhupada: Frozen. Frozen ocean. Means they are defeated; they are coming down. By the sun they are defeated. They were high. "Now go down." Now it will be finished.
Tamala Krsna: Burnt off. [break] What is the way to draw the line between the following three things: blasphemy, fault-finding, and calling a spade a spade?
Prabhupada: A spade a spade... Just like I am saying that "What you are? You are small fig only." That is reality. And what is the other?
Tamala Krsna: The other is fault-finding and...
Prabhupada: Fault-finding, that is another fault, that... vranam icchanti, maksika vranam icchanti, madhum icchanti(?) Just like the flies, they are finding out where is sore, and the bees, they are finding out where there is honey. So two animals, they have got two business: fault-finding and collecting the good things. These are two... Just like creature. They are two classes. Similarly, there are many rascals who are simply fault-finding.
Tamala Krsna: And blasphemy?
Prabhupada: Blasphemy means you have good qualities, but still, I am defaming you.
Tamala Krsna: So the saintly person tends to overlook the bad qualities and see the good ones.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Like Krsna's dealing with Putana.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hundreds and thousands of miles, this fog, simply by two minutes' light of the sun -- finished. [break] ...working. If there was no sun, then so many ships are standing on the ocean. The cars, they are "bong, bong, bong, bong," so many disturbances. You see? You cannot do anything. Daivi hy esa gunamayi [Bg. 7.14]. What you can do? Immediately He can kill you all. Thousands of planets immediately finished. Bring your science to protect them. No, not possible. Mare krsna rakhe ke. When Krsna desires to vanquish, nobody can save you. Finished. Still, these rascals say, "There is no God." Simply rascals. At least expose these rascals. We have no power to kill them, but at least we can expose them. That is also great service.
Hrdayananda: Sometimes, Prabhupada, when we expose them, their argument is, "Oh, you are a saintly person. Why are you criticizing me?"
Prabhupada: No, it is not criticizing. It is opening your eyes. You are blind, you are thinking yourself as very big, so we are opening eyes. You are not big. You are not even pig or fig. That is... ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya. You are blind with ignorance, so we are trying to open your eyes. See things as they are. It is favoring you. It is not criticizing you. [break]...words, vibhu, the great, and anu, the small. So these rascals, they do not understand these two important words, "God is great; I am small." They think, "I am as good as God." This is the folly. [break] ...English proverb? "Where angels dare not, the fools rush in." Eh?
Hrdayananda: "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
Prabhupada: So the angels, Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, they are offering their obeisances, and these rascals are claiming, "I am God." How great rascals they are. Siva-virinci-nutam [SB 11.5.33]. Siva-virinci-nutam. Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, they are offering their respects, and these things are: "I am equal with God." This Mayavada philosophy. Mudhas.
Dayananda: Srila Prabhupada, that tendency to be puffed up seems to be so strong, as soon as they get just a little bit of so-called qualification, then they... Everyone is becoming puffed up, even great personalities like Lord Indra and Lord Brahma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dayananda: What to speak of all the...
Prabhupada: Lord Brahma is also one of the living entities.
Dayananda: So how is it possible that... We're so insignificant, but at the same time we become so puffed up? How is it possible for us...?
Prabhupada: That is material consciousness, that you are nothing you are thinking very big. That is material consciousness. And as soon as you become Krsna conscious, you'll simply think, "Krsna is great; we are nothing, insignificant." That is Krsna consciousness. And so long you think that you are independent of Krsna -- you are also another Krsna -- then you are fool, rascal. Mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25].
Hrdayananda: That's our madness.
Prabhupada: Madness. The whole world is going on on this foolish understanding. Therefore they have been described, mudha, all rascals. Anyone who is thinking, "There is no God, there is no Krsna, it may be He is impersonal, there is no personality, and I am equal to Him" -- these are all rascals, fools.
Dayananda: So actually there is no way to become detached.
Prabhupada: The only way is that you become Krsna conscious.
Dayananda: Except through Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mam eva ye prapadyante. You surrender to Krsna and everything will be clear, just like as soon as the sun rises, everything is clear, no covering. That is our propaganda, that you become Krsna conscious; then you become fully aware of everything. Otherwise you remain rascal, fools, gadha, asses. If you prefer to remain asses, you can do so, but we are servant of Krsna. We must preach real, reality.
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become...
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births' practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma [Bg. 7.19]. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare.
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11], zero, all other, that "I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king" -- all these are thinking like that, they're all nonsense. "I am servant of Krsna" -- that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
Dayananda: So because that person is very rare, then, I guess, the only way we can possibly know how to become like that is to find one pure devotee and exactly follow that way of Krsna
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- February 6, 1976, Mayapura
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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