Denver, July 2, 1975
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Prabhupada:Yesterday you were putting
forward the logic, "Machine." Machine, we also accept. In Bhagavad-gita it is
mentioned, this body is machine, yantra. Yantra means machine. So at the same
time, you said, "Growing." Do you grow machine Ford car?Ambarisa: Do they
grow? No, they... (laughs)
Prabhupada: Then how the analogy is perfect? Machine it is. That is accepted. Krsna says. That is undoubtedly, it is machine. It is nothing but machine. So machine, at the same time, he says, "It grows." How it can be comparable?
Brahmananda: The body is compared to a machine.
Prabhupada: Not... It is machine, not compared. It is machine. Actually it is machine.
Brahmananda: But then it cannot grow because a machine does not grow.
Prabhupada: No.
Ambarisa: So it is changing every second.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this is a car, machine, but if I want a bigger car, that means another car, not this car is growing. Suppose sometimes you get baby car. That is not sufficient. I want big car. So you cannot say that increase the baby car and it becomes a sedan car. That means you require another big car. A child, a child cannot have sex in that body. The same child, when he wants to enjoy sex, he must have another body. So these rascals, they cannot understand how different machines has been supplied by nature. It is supplying.
Ambarisa: Yes, I think it's...
Prabhupada: As soon as you want another machine, immediately it is... Svabhaviki bala-kriya ca parasya saktir vividhaiva. His potencies, his merit, is acting. Not his merit, means the nature's merit, prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27], it is working so swiftly. You cannot see. The same example as I give always, that the movies spool, each is a different picture, but when it is put into the projector, you cannot understand. But actually on the background there are different pictures. So if ordinary cinematograph, cinema picture, we can make like that, how much nicely and subtle machine is there, it is being done -- that you do not know. But each body, each second, you are being supplied a different body.
Brahmananda: Like each of the different frames.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Brahmananda: On the film each frame is different.
Prabhupada: Is different.
Brahmananda: Each picture. But what appears to be a complete...
Prabhupada: So in one picture you will find hand is here, another picture hand is here, another hand is here, but when they are taken together, it means the hand moves. The example is there. Each picture is a different picture. As soon as you stop it, the hand is here. That's all.
Ambarisa: So each second the body is a little different?
Prabhupada: Yes. Each second the body is different. But what this rascal will do? How they will know? They have no brain. All dull-headed materialistic, mudha. They cannot understand this. But this is the process going on. I want, for certain thing, I want a different body. Immediately nature supplies.
Yadubara: Even within this body?
Prabhupada: Why within? Another body you cannot see. Not within -- without. Another body supplied.
Ambarisa: Sometimes when people are put into a dangerous situation, they acquire extraordinary strength, just like that, that they never had before. So it's like they...
Prabhupada: No, no. You must expect according to your quality. Just like if Krsna wants, He can make something else. But you are not independent. You are dependent on nature, and your position is very insignificant. But Krsna can, as soon as He wishes -- immediately done. Parasya saktir vividhaiva. Just like in Bible it is said, "God said, 'Let there be creation.' There was creation immediately." But you cannot do that. But if you... Whatever you are desiring, nature is supplying you. Krsna is also being supplied by nature, that is spiritual nature. And you are also being supplied by the material nature. So both nature is working. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara... [Bg. 3.27]. Each stage is a different form. That is going on.
Ambarisa: The scientists say that every seven years the body...
Prabhupada: Not seven years. A medical man says every moment the blood corpuscles are changing.
Ambarisa: Are different?
Prabhupada: Yes. New blood cells are coming into being. So you cannot say machine growing. That is fallacious. A machine, new machine. (Everyone gets out of car)
Ambarisa: New machine, jaya.
Prabhupada: As soon as I want a smaller car, not smaller car, I want bigger car, smaller car also. That is change. Whatever you deserve. You desire; at the same time, you deserve. First deserve, then desire. Just like these rascals, "I desire to become God." That kind of desire will never be fulfilled.
Yadubara: It's according to the qualification also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Your position is very minute. So you can desire up to that limit, not that you can desire "I become complete, universal." That is the defect of the Mayavada. "Because I am equal... So 'ham. Because I am qualitatively one, therefore I am one in every respect." A drop of ocean water, if he desires, "I become ocean," that is not possible. But a drop of ocean water contains the same ingredients as the big Pacific Ocean. So in your quantitative proportion, if you desire, that is your perfection.
Brahmananda: Understanding one's position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: That's sensible. [break]
Devotee (1): Like in the Tenth Chapter it's talking about...
Prabhupada: Hm, not come very near. Yes?
Devotee (1): It's talking about that Arjuna saw the universal form, all these universes and all that. So does that mean like you were talking that one can't become a universal being, but he can see the whole universe. Can you explain how that is?
Prabhupada: How is that? You can see the universe; that does not mean that you can become universe. You can see the sky; that does not mean you become as big as sky. [break] ...small, minute shining sparks, minute combination. So they are also shining, but that does not mean they can become as good, as big, as the sun. [break] ...the defect of the Mayavada philosophy. They think of themselves too much. Therefore they remain here, always in maya. [break] ...abuddhayah, means the intelligence is not purified. They are called avisuddha-buddhayah or visuddha [SB 10.2.32], "without purification of knowledge." [break] ...krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah. They fall down. [break] ...this symbol?
Harikesa: Some fountain.
Prabhupada: No, there are some children, symbolic.
Brahmananda: They're looking at the water. [break]
Prabhupada: ...written, "Danger." Now they are going to the safety. What is danger, there is that safety. Now, what is danger and what is safety?
Brahmananda: That means it is relative.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is relative. Therefore it is called relative world. [break]
Brahmananda: It's according to the body. Because the duck has a particular body, the water for him is safety, and because we have this particular body, it is dangerous.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): [break] ...true that when you become more purified that you will see everything differently with your eyes and hear everything differently with your ears and all this?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): We won't see things the way we perceive them now, right?
Prabhupada: If you are suffering from cataract, how you can see distinctly? You have to get your eyes operated. Then you can see. So our bhakti process is simply purifying, purifying, more, more, more. When you are completely purified, you see God face to face, eye to eye, talk with Him, play with Him, just like cowherds boys, they are playing, the gopis are dancing. You get that position. [break]
Yadubara: ...You said in the Bhagavatam, speaking about Dhruva Maharaja, that his senses became enlivened.
Prabhupada: Senses are there. It is purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. The bhakti process is completely, complete process to purify you. Other process are not. Karma, jnana, yoga cannot purify you cent percent, but bhakti process can purify you cent percent.
Harikesa: Srila Prabhupada, what's the difference between a Brahmavadi and a Mayavadi?
Prabhupada: That you already questioned. We answered.
Harikesa: I did?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...vadi means those who are aspiring to merge into the impersonal Brahman effulgence.
Harikesa: And Mayavadis, they do not attain that impersonal realization?
Prabhupada: Mayavadis remain fools forever.
Harikesa: They never leave this material platform.
Prabhupada: They do not know. They have no knowledge. Avisuddha-buddhayah [SB 10.2.32], always impure. Otherwise how they are thinking, so 'ham: "I am same. I am God. I am moving the sun, I am..." Such rascals, they remain always in ignorance. [break] ...no sense that "If I am the same, then why I have fallen down in this maya?" They say, "It is my lila. I have become dog. So it is my lila. I have become hog. It is my lila." (laughs) This is their philosophy. Hare Krsna. [break] Mayavada. They are fools, mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnana. They are described in the Bhagavad-gita. Mayavadi means mayayapahrta-jnana: "Their knowledge has been taken away by maya." Fools. Either you call them fool or call them lowest of the mankind or the most sinful, whatever way you can call, they are like that. All good qualifications. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has warned, mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa: [Cc. Madhya 6.169] "If you hear from Mayavadi, then your spiritual life is finished." It's so dangerous.
Harikesa: The Brahmavadis have some possibility of advancement?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Harikesa: What is that thing that enables them to advance?
Prabhupada: That you will know later on. First of all try to understand this. Don't try to understand everything in a moment. That is foolishness. [break] That argument is clear?
Ambarisa: Yes.
Prabhupada: That if you call it a machine, how the machine can grow?
Ambarisa: The machine is changing at every second.
Prabhupada: You say two things: "Growing" and "machine." So that is incomparable. Machine cannot grow.
Ambarisa: Jaya. [break]
Brahmananda: ...many machines. You get another machine, another one, and another and another.
Prabhupada: So I have changed so many machines. So death means another machine. Where is the difficulty?
Ambarisa: When the spirit soul leaves the body, the body continues to change, it deteriorates?
Prabhupada: No, no. Spirit soul is changing machine. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. So when this machine is finished, and another machine.
Ambarisa: The old machine continues to change after the spirit soul leaves, it deteriorates? The old machine deterior..., it breaks down.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. You give up one machine and you take another machine. [break]
Devotee (1): ...one goes into a subtle machine?
Prabhupada: That example is given, vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like your dress, when it is useless, you throw it away and take another dress. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya grhnati narah aparani. You accept another set of dress. Clearly explained. [break] ...also very scientific. Just like according to your last life's desires, you have got this dress, this body. So it is going on, going on, going on. Now you are creating another set of desires in this life. So you require a different dress. Then you begin another satisfaction of your desires. This is going on. Karmana daiva-netrena: [SB 3.31.1] by your karma, you are creating a situation. Just like the criminal, he has created a situation; he cannot live anymore outside the jail. "Come on, here." He will go in automatically. So they do not know how nature is working. It is clearly said, prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]. "Nature is working, and that nature is working," mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10], "under My superintendence." Everything is there. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. Jagat, it is changing, always changing. How it is changing? Under the direction of God. Mayadhyaksena.
Devotee (1): Only Krsna is doing everything then.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna is not like you that when you are given some business, you become embarrassed. That is the difference between Krsna and you. He never becomes embarrassed.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, is it true that our advancement in devotional services... Is it influenced a lot by our past karma, how many sinful activities we have committed?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Bhakti is not under karma. Bhakti is under your good will. If you accept to surrender to Krsna, you can do that without being checked by anything else. Simply you have to will, "Yes, Krsna. You are asking me. So long I did not do. From this day I do." That will depend upon you.
Devotee (2): Not that if I was more sinful, I would make less advancement than somebody who is more pious.
Prabhupada: Whatever you may be, simply surrender and everything is finished. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayis... [Bg. 18.66]. Even if you are sinful, Krsna will give you release, "All right. You have surrendered. That's all right." That is wanted. If you reserve something and cheat Krsna, "Now I am surrendering," Krsna is very intelligent. "You have still reservation. No." [break]
Devotee (1): ...it's easier to surrender to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, in sattva-guna one can see, one can understand his position. [break]
Devotee (2): Does he experience the miseries of the gross body when he's in sattva-guna, in the mode of goodness? Does he experience hunger and thirst, those things like that?
Prabhupada: Gross body means no hunger?
Devotee (2): When a person's in sattva-guna, he's not so much feeling the pain...
Prabhupada: He is not disturbed by the rajo-guna, tamo-guna. That is sattva-guna. Nasta-prayesv abhadresu [SB 1.2.18]. He can be disturbed by rajo-guna, tamo-guna, but when he is in sattva-guna, he is not so much disturbed. And if he increase and go to the pure sattva-guna, suddha-sattva, then he is no more disturbed. At that time he can understand what is God. [break] ...you are strongly situated in sattva-guna, the other base qualities cannot disturb you. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. Other guna means lusty desires and greediness. This thing will be finished when you are strongly situated in sattva-guna. Then you go advance more and more. [break] ...hear about Krsna, to chant about Krsna, means cleansing, cleansing the dirty things of rajo-guna and tamo-guna. [break] ...world is going on on rajo-guna and tamo-guna. Very minute quantity of population are by sattva-guna.
Brahmananda: Perhaps only in India will you find people in...
Prabhupada: Yes, some. That is also deteriorating. [break] The sattva-guna... the Mayavadi, they are also supposed to be in sattva-guna, but mixed with rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Therefore not pure.
Devotee (2): You were saying that when one is in the mode of goodness, that he is on the mental platform?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Devotee (2): Does that mean that he's not... He's experiencing the subtle body inside of the gross body, or what does that mean exactly?
Prabhupada: Mental platform is mixed sattva-guna, rajo-guna, not pure. But if you keep always Krsna in your mind, then you are purified. The mind has no other opportunity to keep anything else. Krsna is sitting there, then guarantee. [break] ...they keep always seeing Visnu form within the heart. Therefore they keep in sattva-guna. Similarly, if you keep Krsna, then you are in sattva-guna. And when that concentration on Krsna is not disturbed, then it is suddha-sattva. That is spiritual platform. [break] ...ekadasi?
Nitai: It's Saturday, the 6th.
Devotee (2): What does the yogi perceive when he cuts off the outer senses, he finally reaches the...
Prabhupada: Perceive?
Devotee (2): What does he experience when he cuts off the outer senses and is able to...
Prabhupada: Outer senses, what do you mean by outer senses-dead?
Devotee (2): His bodily senses.
Prabhupada: There is no question of outer senses. Senses purified. What do you mean by outer senses?
Devotee (2): The senses with which you perceive the outer gross...
Prabhupada: That always remains. But when it is not purified, you perceive material things. When it is purified, you perceive spiritual things.
Devotee (2): So the same gross senses will be able to see spiritual things.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is purified. Bhakti is the purifying process. I have already said. Not that the eyes are suffering from cataract disease, "Pluck out." That is Mayavadi philosophy.
Devotee (2): What does that mean, then, when the yogis withdraw their senses from the objects like it says like the tortoise withdraws his limbs within the shell? What does that refer to then?
Prabhupada: Hm? What is that? I do not follow.
Brahmananda: He asks, in the yoga system...
Prabhupada: Yoga system means always see Supersoul; that is real yoga system. Perfection. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1]. Yoginah, being meditating and seeing the Supersoul, this is yoga. Not that he does not see. He is seeing Supersoul. He is seeing nothing else.
Devotee (1): He doesn't see the Supersoul with the gross senses, though, does he?
Prabhupada: Pure senses. He does not... Impure senses and pure senses.
Devotee (2): How can you tell when your senses are getting purified?
Prabhupada: You will understand Krsna more and more. So long your senses are not purified, you will not understand clearly what is Krsna. [break] ...understanding Krsna means detestful to the material world, attached to Krsna. Bhaktih paresanubhavah viraktir anyatra syat. [break]
Devotee (2): Is it true that eventually by this process we'll become purified so we can become like sruti-dharas?
Prabhupada: That you will see when you become purified.
Devotee (2): Then we will actually attain that condition, then.
Prabhupada: Try to become purified. Don't imagine and guess, "What will be the condition when I am purified?" This is all nonsense. Try to become purified.
Devotee (2): Then you perceive it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: You tell the story of the potter. He has many pots. (Prabhupada laughs) And he tries to imagine what it will be like when he becomes very wealthy.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense, waste time. [break] ...you are eating you will understand yourself, "Yes, I am eating, I am getting strength, I am getting satisfaction." But simply theory..., "What will happen after eating? What will happen?" You eat and you see what is happening. What is the use of asking this question? You eat and you will understand. [break]
Brahmananda: ...Harrison, he wrote in his preface that "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: So he recommended everyone to take up Krsna consciousness. [break]
Prabhupada: ...daily, guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya **, what is that?
Nitai: Cittete koriya aikya.
Prabhupada:
ar na koriho mane asa
So guru, your guru has said that "You chant Hare Krsna, observe these rules." Do that, don't speculate, and you will understand everything. [break] ...daily
guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya,
ar na koriho mane asa **
No speculation, do it.
Devotee (2): Can you explain exactly what speculation means?
Prabhupada: Speculation means thinking, "What will happen? Maybe like this, maybe like this." That is speculation. [break] ...speculate, "Krsna may be like this. Krsna may be like this." That is speculation. When Krsna appears before you, you see, "Oh, Krsna is like this." That is wanted. And if you speculate, "Krsna may be like this," it is all nonsense. Come to the stage when Krsna will appear before you, and you will see what is Krsna. Be qualified to that position. Mayavadis, they are speculating simply, "God may be like this." Why "God may be like this?" God is factual, Krsna. Therefore they cannot understand Krsna. [break] ...plane crash took place in John Kennedy?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: So such a big... simply by touching the electric wire that becomes...
Brahmananda: Well, they were, I think, steel towers, two hundred feet high, so they were pretty sturdy, and it hit four of them.
Ambarisa: There was some bad weather.
Brahmananda: And then it toppled over.
Prabhupada: No, in bad weather, towers, but simply by touching, such a big machine became in fire. (laughs) Unsafe everywhere. Padam padam yad vipadam [SB 10.14.58]. Every step, there is danger.
Brahmananda: One of our devotees... I was speaking to him. He was formerly in the air force, an electrician. And he was saying how there are so many wires in an airplane, and actually, when he was electrician, they would put the wires together very hastily in order to get the job done. And he said one of those wires could go wrong and then...
Prabhupada: Finish everything.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: He said the tendency is when you have a job is that you try to find some shortcut.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: So everyone is looking for that some shortcut, how to do it quicker, faster.
Prabhupada: [break] ...working sincerely? Nobody. In the material world they cannot work sincerely. [break] ...experienced when any enterprise goes under government supervision, it immediately spoiled. Nobody work sincerely. When it is a private concern, one is sincere because it is his business. If it goes wrong, he will suffer. But when it is government concern, they become irresponsible. That is the experience. Immediately, "Oh, my service is secure. I cannot be kicked out suddenly. So I may do or not do." This is going on.
Ambarisa: In Russia they will shoot you if you do not do it.
Prabhupada: Well, but there is the tendency, "Do not do." Therefore there is shooting. (laughter) How can you check it? (end)
Prabhupada: Then how the analogy is perfect? Machine it is. That is accepted. Krsna says. That is undoubtedly, it is machine. It is nothing but machine. So machine, at the same time, he says, "It grows." How it can be comparable?
Brahmananda: The body is compared to a machine.
Prabhupada: Not... It is machine, not compared. It is machine. Actually it is machine.
Brahmananda: But then it cannot grow because a machine does not grow.
Prabhupada: No.
Ambarisa: So it is changing every second.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this is a car, machine, but if I want a bigger car, that means another car, not this car is growing. Suppose sometimes you get baby car. That is not sufficient. I want big car. So you cannot say that increase the baby car and it becomes a sedan car. That means you require another big car. A child, a child cannot have sex in that body. The same child, when he wants to enjoy sex, he must have another body. So these rascals, they cannot understand how different machines has been supplied by nature. It is supplying.
Ambarisa: Yes, I think it's...
Prabhupada: As soon as you want another machine, immediately it is... Svabhaviki bala-kriya ca parasya saktir vividhaiva. His potencies, his merit, is acting. Not his merit, means the nature's merit, prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27], it is working so swiftly. You cannot see. The same example as I give always, that the movies spool, each is a different picture, but when it is put into the projector, you cannot understand. But actually on the background there are different pictures. So if ordinary cinematograph, cinema picture, we can make like that, how much nicely and subtle machine is there, it is being done -- that you do not know. But each body, each second, you are being supplied a different body.
Brahmananda: Like each of the different frames.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Brahmananda: On the film each frame is different.
Prabhupada: Is different.
Brahmananda: Each picture. But what appears to be a complete...
Prabhupada: So in one picture you will find hand is here, another picture hand is here, another hand is here, but when they are taken together, it means the hand moves. The example is there. Each picture is a different picture. As soon as you stop it, the hand is here. That's all.
Ambarisa: So each second the body is a little different?
Prabhupada: Yes. Each second the body is different. But what this rascal will do? How they will know? They have no brain. All dull-headed materialistic, mudha. They cannot understand this. But this is the process going on. I want, for certain thing, I want a different body. Immediately nature supplies.
Yadubara: Even within this body?
Prabhupada: Why within? Another body you cannot see. Not within -- without. Another body supplied.
Ambarisa: Sometimes when people are put into a dangerous situation, they acquire extraordinary strength, just like that, that they never had before. So it's like they...
Prabhupada: No, no. You must expect according to your quality. Just like if Krsna wants, He can make something else. But you are not independent. You are dependent on nature, and your position is very insignificant. But Krsna can, as soon as He wishes -- immediately done. Parasya saktir vividhaiva. Just like in Bible it is said, "God said, 'Let there be creation.' There was creation immediately." But you cannot do that. But if you... Whatever you are desiring, nature is supplying you. Krsna is also being supplied by nature, that is spiritual nature. And you are also being supplied by the material nature. So both nature is working. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara... [Bg. 3.27]. Each stage is a different form. That is going on.
Ambarisa: The scientists say that every seven years the body...
Prabhupada: Not seven years. A medical man says every moment the blood corpuscles are changing.
Ambarisa: Are different?
Prabhupada: Yes. New blood cells are coming into being. So you cannot say machine growing. That is fallacious. A machine, new machine. (Everyone gets out of car)
Ambarisa: New machine, jaya.
Prabhupada: As soon as I want a smaller car, not smaller car, I want bigger car, smaller car also. That is change. Whatever you deserve. You desire; at the same time, you deserve. First deserve, then desire. Just like these rascals, "I desire to become God." That kind of desire will never be fulfilled.
Yadubara: It's according to the qualification also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Your position is very minute. So you can desire up to that limit, not that you can desire "I become complete, universal." That is the defect of the Mayavada. "Because I am equal... So 'ham. Because I am qualitatively one, therefore I am one in every respect." A drop of ocean water, if he desires, "I become ocean," that is not possible. But a drop of ocean water contains the same ingredients as the big Pacific Ocean. So in your quantitative proportion, if you desire, that is your perfection.
Brahmananda: Understanding one's position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: That's sensible. [break]
Devotee (1): Like in the Tenth Chapter it's talking about...
Prabhupada: Hm, not come very near. Yes?
Devotee (1): It's talking about that Arjuna saw the universal form, all these universes and all that. So does that mean like you were talking that one can't become a universal being, but he can see the whole universe. Can you explain how that is?
Prabhupada: How is that? You can see the universe; that does not mean that you can become universe. You can see the sky; that does not mean you become as big as sky. [break] ...small, minute shining sparks, minute combination. So they are also shining, but that does not mean they can become as good, as big, as the sun. [break] ...the defect of the Mayavada philosophy. They think of themselves too much. Therefore they remain here, always in maya. [break] ...abuddhayah, means the intelligence is not purified. They are called avisuddha-buddhayah or visuddha [SB 10.2.32], "without purification of knowledge." [break] ...krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah. They fall down. [break] ...this symbol?
Harikesa: Some fountain.
Prabhupada: No, there are some children, symbolic.
Brahmananda: They're looking at the water. [break]
Prabhupada: ...written, "Danger." Now they are going to the safety. What is danger, there is that safety. Now, what is danger and what is safety?
Brahmananda: That means it is relative.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is relative. Therefore it is called relative world. [break]
Brahmananda: It's according to the body. Because the duck has a particular body, the water for him is safety, and because we have this particular body, it is dangerous.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): [break] ...true that when you become more purified that you will see everything differently with your eyes and hear everything differently with your ears and all this?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): We won't see things the way we perceive them now, right?
Prabhupada: If you are suffering from cataract, how you can see distinctly? You have to get your eyes operated. Then you can see. So our bhakti process is simply purifying, purifying, more, more, more. When you are completely purified, you see God face to face, eye to eye, talk with Him, play with Him, just like cowherds boys, they are playing, the gopis are dancing. You get that position. [break]
Yadubara: ...You said in the Bhagavatam, speaking about Dhruva Maharaja, that his senses became enlivened.
Prabhupada: Senses are there. It is purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. The bhakti process is completely, complete process to purify you. Other process are not. Karma, jnana, yoga cannot purify you cent percent, but bhakti process can purify you cent percent.
Harikesa: Srila Prabhupada, what's the difference between a Brahmavadi and a Mayavadi?
Prabhupada: That you already questioned. We answered.
Harikesa: I did?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...vadi means those who are aspiring to merge into the impersonal Brahman effulgence.
Harikesa: And Mayavadis, they do not attain that impersonal realization?
Prabhupada: Mayavadis remain fools forever.
Harikesa: They never leave this material platform.
Prabhupada: They do not know. They have no knowledge. Avisuddha-buddhayah [SB 10.2.32], always impure. Otherwise how they are thinking, so 'ham: "I am same. I am God. I am moving the sun, I am..." Such rascals, they remain always in ignorance. [break] ...no sense that "If I am the same, then why I have fallen down in this maya?" They say, "It is my lila. I have become dog. So it is my lila. I have become hog. It is my lila." (laughs) This is their philosophy. Hare Krsna. [break] Mayavada. They are fools, mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnana. They are described in the Bhagavad-gita. Mayavadi means mayayapahrta-jnana: "Their knowledge has been taken away by maya." Fools. Either you call them fool or call them lowest of the mankind or the most sinful, whatever way you can call, they are like that. All good qualifications. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has warned, mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa: [Cc. Madhya 6.169] "If you hear from Mayavadi, then your spiritual life is finished." It's so dangerous.
Harikesa: The Brahmavadis have some possibility of advancement?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Harikesa: What is that thing that enables them to advance?
Prabhupada: That you will know later on. First of all try to understand this. Don't try to understand everything in a moment. That is foolishness. [break] That argument is clear?
Ambarisa: Yes.
Prabhupada: That if you call it a machine, how the machine can grow?
Ambarisa: The machine is changing at every second.
Prabhupada: You say two things: "Growing" and "machine." So that is incomparable. Machine cannot grow.
Ambarisa: Jaya. [break]
Brahmananda: ...many machines. You get another machine, another one, and another and another.
Prabhupada: So I have changed so many machines. So death means another machine. Where is the difficulty?
Ambarisa: When the spirit soul leaves the body, the body continues to change, it deteriorates?
Prabhupada: No, no. Spirit soul is changing machine. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. So when this machine is finished, and another machine.
Ambarisa: The old machine continues to change after the spirit soul leaves, it deteriorates? The old machine deterior..., it breaks down.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. You give up one machine and you take another machine. [break]
Devotee (1): ...one goes into a subtle machine?
Prabhupada: That example is given, vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like your dress, when it is useless, you throw it away and take another dress. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya grhnati narah aparani. You accept another set of dress. Clearly explained. [break] ...also very scientific. Just like according to your last life's desires, you have got this dress, this body. So it is going on, going on, going on. Now you are creating another set of desires in this life. So you require a different dress. Then you begin another satisfaction of your desires. This is going on. Karmana daiva-netrena: [SB 3.31.1] by your karma, you are creating a situation. Just like the criminal, he has created a situation; he cannot live anymore outside the jail. "Come on, here." He will go in automatically. So they do not know how nature is working. It is clearly said, prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]. "Nature is working, and that nature is working," mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10], "under My superintendence." Everything is there. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. Jagat, it is changing, always changing. How it is changing? Under the direction of God. Mayadhyaksena.
Devotee (1): Only Krsna is doing everything then.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna is not like you that when you are given some business, you become embarrassed. That is the difference between Krsna and you. He never becomes embarrassed.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, is it true that our advancement in devotional services... Is it influenced a lot by our past karma, how many sinful activities we have committed?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Bhakti is not under karma. Bhakti is under your good will. If you accept to surrender to Krsna, you can do that without being checked by anything else. Simply you have to will, "Yes, Krsna. You are asking me. So long I did not do. From this day I do." That will depend upon you.
Devotee (2): Not that if I was more sinful, I would make less advancement than somebody who is more pious.
Prabhupada: Whatever you may be, simply surrender and everything is finished. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayis... [Bg. 18.66]. Even if you are sinful, Krsna will give you release, "All right. You have surrendered. That's all right." That is wanted. If you reserve something and cheat Krsna, "Now I am surrendering," Krsna is very intelligent. "You have still reservation. No." [break]
Devotee (1): ...it's easier to surrender to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, in sattva-guna one can see, one can understand his position. [break]
Devotee (2): Does he experience the miseries of the gross body when he's in sattva-guna, in the mode of goodness? Does he experience hunger and thirst, those things like that?
Prabhupada: Gross body means no hunger?
Devotee (2): When a person's in sattva-guna, he's not so much feeling the pain...
Prabhupada: He is not disturbed by the rajo-guna, tamo-guna. That is sattva-guna. Nasta-prayesv abhadresu [SB 1.2.18]. He can be disturbed by rajo-guna, tamo-guna, but when he is in sattva-guna, he is not so much disturbed. And if he increase and go to the pure sattva-guna, suddha-sattva, then he is no more disturbed. At that time he can understand what is God. [break] ...you are strongly situated in sattva-guna, the other base qualities cannot disturb you. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. Other guna means lusty desires and greediness. This thing will be finished when you are strongly situated in sattva-guna. Then you go advance more and more. [break] ...hear about Krsna, to chant about Krsna, means cleansing, cleansing the dirty things of rajo-guna and tamo-guna. [break] ...world is going on on rajo-guna and tamo-guna. Very minute quantity of population are by sattva-guna.
Brahmananda: Perhaps only in India will you find people in...
Prabhupada: Yes, some. That is also deteriorating. [break] The sattva-guna... the Mayavadi, they are also supposed to be in sattva-guna, but mixed with rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Therefore not pure.
Devotee (2): You were saying that when one is in the mode of goodness, that he is on the mental platform?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Devotee (2): Does that mean that he's not... He's experiencing the subtle body inside of the gross body, or what does that mean exactly?
Prabhupada: Mental platform is mixed sattva-guna, rajo-guna, not pure. But if you keep always Krsna in your mind, then you are purified. The mind has no other opportunity to keep anything else. Krsna is sitting there, then guarantee. [break] ...they keep always seeing Visnu form within the heart. Therefore they keep in sattva-guna. Similarly, if you keep Krsna, then you are in sattva-guna. And when that concentration on Krsna is not disturbed, then it is suddha-sattva. That is spiritual platform. [break] ...ekadasi?
Nitai: It's Saturday, the 6th.
Devotee (2): What does the yogi perceive when he cuts off the outer senses, he finally reaches the...
Prabhupada: Perceive?
Devotee (2): What does he experience when he cuts off the outer senses and is able to...
Prabhupada: Outer senses, what do you mean by outer senses-dead?
Devotee (2): His bodily senses.
Prabhupada: There is no question of outer senses. Senses purified. What do you mean by outer senses?
Devotee (2): The senses with which you perceive the outer gross...
Prabhupada: That always remains. But when it is not purified, you perceive material things. When it is purified, you perceive spiritual things.
Devotee (2): So the same gross senses will be able to see spiritual things.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is purified. Bhakti is the purifying process. I have already said. Not that the eyes are suffering from cataract disease, "Pluck out." That is Mayavadi philosophy.
Devotee (2): What does that mean, then, when the yogis withdraw their senses from the objects like it says like the tortoise withdraws his limbs within the shell? What does that refer to then?
Prabhupada: Hm? What is that? I do not follow.
Brahmananda: He asks, in the yoga system...
Prabhupada: Yoga system means always see Supersoul; that is real yoga system. Perfection. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1]. Yoginah, being meditating and seeing the Supersoul, this is yoga. Not that he does not see. He is seeing Supersoul. He is seeing nothing else.
Devotee (1): He doesn't see the Supersoul with the gross senses, though, does he?
Prabhupada: Pure senses. He does not... Impure senses and pure senses.
Devotee (2): How can you tell when your senses are getting purified?
Prabhupada: You will understand Krsna more and more. So long your senses are not purified, you will not understand clearly what is Krsna. [break] ...understanding Krsna means detestful to the material world, attached to Krsna. Bhaktih paresanubhavah viraktir anyatra syat. [break]
Devotee (2): Is it true that eventually by this process we'll become purified so we can become like sruti-dharas?
Prabhupada: That you will see when you become purified.
Devotee (2): Then we will actually attain that condition, then.
Prabhupada: Try to become purified. Don't imagine and guess, "What will be the condition when I am purified?" This is all nonsense. Try to become purified.
Devotee (2): Then you perceive it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: You tell the story of the potter. He has many pots. (Prabhupada laughs) And he tries to imagine what it will be like when he becomes very wealthy.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense, waste time. [break] ...you are eating you will understand yourself, "Yes, I am eating, I am getting strength, I am getting satisfaction." But simply theory..., "What will happen after eating? What will happen?" You eat and you see what is happening. What is the use of asking this question? You eat and you will understand. [break]
Brahmananda: ...Harrison, he wrote in his preface that "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: So he recommended everyone to take up Krsna consciousness. [break]
Prabhupada: ...daily, guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya **, what is that?
Nitai: Cittete koriya aikya.
Prabhupada:
ar na koriho mane asa
So guru, your guru has said that "You chant Hare Krsna, observe these rules." Do that, don't speculate, and you will understand everything. [break] ...daily
guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya,
ar na koriho mane asa **
No speculation, do it.
Devotee (2): Can you explain exactly what speculation means?
Prabhupada: Speculation means thinking, "What will happen? Maybe like this, maybe like this." That is speculation. [break] ...speculate, "Krsna may be like this. Krsna may be like this." That is speculation. When Krsna appears before you, you see, "Oh, Krsna is like this." That is wanted. And if you speculate, "Krsna may be like this," it is all nonsense. Come to the stage when Krsna will appear before you, and you will see what is Krsna. Be qualified to that position. Mayavadis, they are speculating simply, "God may be like this." Why "God may be like this?" God is factual, Krsna. Therefore they cannot understand Krsna. [break] ...plane crash took place in John Kennedy?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: So such a big... simply by touching the electric wire that becomes...
Brahmananda: Well, they were, I think, steel towers, two hundred feet high, so they were pretty sturdy, and it hit four of them.
Ambarisa: There was some bad weather.
Brahmananda: And then it toppled over.
Prabhupada: No, in bad weather, towers, but simply by touching, such a big machine became in fire. (laughs) Unsafe everywhere. Padam padam yad vipadam [SB 10.14.58]. Every step, there is danger.
Brahmananda: One of our devotees... I was speaking to him. He was formerly in the air force, an electrician. And he was saying how there are so many wires in an airplane, and actually, when he was electrician, they would put the wires together very hastily in order to get the job done. And he said one of those wires could go wrong and then...
Prabhupada: Finish everything.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: He said the tendency is when you have a job is that you try to find some shortcut.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: So everyone is looking for that some shortcut, how to do it quicker, faster.
Prabhupada: [break] ...working sincerely? Nobody. In the material world they cannot work sincerely. [break] ...experienced when any enterprise goes under government supervision, it immediately spoiled. Nobody work sincerely. When it is a private concern, one is sincere because it is his business. If it goes wrong, he will suffer. But when it is government concern, they become irresponsible. That is the experience. Immediately, "Oh, my service is secure. I cannot be kicked out suddenly. So I may do or not do." This is going on.
Ambarisa: In Russia they will shoot you if you do not do it.
Prabhupada: Well, but there is the tendency, "Do not do." Therefore there is shooting. (laughter) How can you check it? (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- July 2, 1975, Denver
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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