Prabhupada:Now we see the sky, the
sun, how nice it is. This is life. Green, down and up, clear sky, sun, this is
life. We get rejuvenation in this atmosphere. What is this nonsense, all
skyscraper building, no air, no light? Jagato 'hitah. The mind becomes crippled,
the health becomes deteriorated, children cannot see even the sky, everything is
spoiled.
Kuladri: Every day in the city they make a report, pollution
report. And they say you should go outside or not go outside. Some days it is
not good for your health to leave your home.
Devotee (1): They are also selling fresh air,
Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Fresh air? (laughter) Fresh water, also.
Hari-sauri: In Tokyo there are special machines you can get
air, clean water.
Prabhupada: Fresh, by cleaning the urine? Now they are doing
that. Fresh water by cleaning urine. Fat derived from stool. Yes, German people
did it. Fat extracted from stool. Scientifically. You can use it with butter
very nicely on your bread. This is going on.
Pusta Krsna: Some of the materialists may argue that these
activities are not all that unbeneficial. For example, they have made a tractor,
and in America they can produce so many grains, so much so that practically they
could feed the world.
Prabhupada: Why do they not?
Pusta Krsna: Because their mentality is very
abominable.
Prabhupada: Do that. There are so many overpopulation, and
you can do it in America. So much land lying vacant here.
Dhrstadyumna: Better to put the people in factories in the
fields. If they are going to work, let them work growing grain and milking the
cows.
Prabhupada: Yes, then they will live very happily. That will
not do. Jagato 'hitah. Read it.
Dhrstadyumna: Ksayaya jagato 'hitah
Prabhupada: Ksayaya, ksayaya means all for ruination,
bringing ruin, ruination. So save them from ruination. Actually I've seen in New
York, some quarter so nasty. In London also, so nasty. Disaster. So many
storefront, lying vacant houses. I was, when I had no business, I was loitering
to see the city. Hellish condition. They said it was risky, but I did not know
that it was risky. One electrician, he was my friend, "Oh, Swamiji, you are
going in those quarters? It is not for you, don't." "Oh, I do not care. What I
have got they will take from me?" So I was loitering in New York City. So many
nasty quarters. London also. So many houses vacant.
Kuladri: There is more chance of being killed in New York
City than in the jungle.
Prabhupada: Yes. They warned me not to go to the Central Park
in the evening. They say at night nobody goes there.
Pusta Krsna: Except the thieves and killers.
Prabhupada: Just see. Such an important city, and such
important park, and nobody can go.
Pusta Krsna: Is there any stage at which these atheistic
people have done anything good by accident?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Pusta Krsna: Is there any step?
Prabhupada: Therefore they support this accident theory.
Nowadays they have got the accident theory. Because ordinarily there is no good.
There is no possibility. But by accident if some good comes, that's all.
Otherwise, jagato 'hitah, it is only fault. They are... But accidentally means
good comes. Accidentally, Krsna consciousness movement came. (laughs) Although
it was going on in India. Nobody called Krsna consciousness, the scientists, the
philosophers, the politicians. But accidentally came. Accidentally, we got
result. You cannot explain God, therefore you take it as accident.
Pusta Krsna: This is very interesting, very interesting. In a
Vedic community everything is very ordered, and goodness prevails, therefore God
consciousness seems very natural.
Prabhupada: Go on.
Dhrstadyumna: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who
are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial,
horrible works meant to destroy the world." (purport) "The demoniac are engaged
in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that
they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think
that they are advancing. But, according to Bhagavad-gita, they are unintelligent
and devoid of all sense. They try to enjoy this material world to the utmost
limit and therefore always engage in inventing something for sense
gratification. Such materialistic inventions are considered to be the
advancement of human civilization, but the result is that people grow more and
more violent and more and more cruel-cruel to animals and cruel to other human
beings. They have no idea how to behave toward one another. Animal killing is
very prominent amongst demoniac people. Such people are considered the enemies
of the world because ultimately they will invent or create something which will
bring destruction to all. Indirectly, this verse anticipates the invention of
nuclear weapons, of which the whole world is today very proud. At any moment war
may take place, and these atomic weapons may create havoc. Such things are
created solely for the destruction of the world, and this is indicated here. Due
to godlessness, such weapons are invented in human society; they are not meant
for the peace and prosperity of the world."
Prabhupada: Now, discuss.
Dhrstadyumna: Actually, in this century there has not been
ten years of peace. Always there is some war been going on, and now...
Prabhupada: Cold war and hot war, they say. When there is
fire that is hot war, and there is diplomacy and politics, that is cold war. So
war is going on. Sometimes it is hot, sometimes it is cold. There is no
peace.
Pusta Krsna: We even see that among the so-called God
conscious communities in the world, still there are such horrible activities
going on, fighting.
Prabhupada: No, no, we don't say that fighting will stop. We
are distinguishing demons and rogues, uh, demigods. If you fight, demon, I must
defend myself. What can I do? If you start war, you are demon, shall I stop:
"No, no, I am demigod, I'll not fight. You kill me"? Is that intelligent? I'll
have to fight. But the war starts by the implication of the demons. The
Kuruksetra war, it was not started by Arjuna. It was started by Duryodhana.
(long pause) All right, go on.
Dhrstadyumna:
kamam asritya duspuram
dambha-mana-madanvitah
mohad grhitvasad-grahan
pravartante 'suci-vratah
"The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and
false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work,
attracted by the impermanent." Purport. "The demoniac mentality is described
here. The demons' lust is never satiated. They will go on increasing and
increasing their insatiable desires for material enjoyment. Although they are
always full of anxieties on account of accepting nonpermanent things, they still
continue to engage in such activities out of illusion. They have no knowledge
and cannot tell that they are heading the wrong way. Accepting nonpermanent
things, such demoniac people create their own God, create their own hymns, and
chant accordingly. The result is that they become more and more attracted to two
things -- sex enjoyment and accumulation of material wealth. The word
asuci-vratah, 'unclean vow,' is very significant in this connection. Such
demoniac people are only attracted by wine, women, gambling and meat-eating;
those are their asuci, unclean habits. Induced by pride and false prestige, they
create some principles of religion which are not approved by the Vedic
injunctions. Although such demoniac people are most abominable in the world,
still, by artificial means, the world creates a false honor for them. Although
they are gliding toward hell, they consider themselves very much
advanced."
Prabhupada: There are so many religious systems: "Yes, you
can do whatever you like, you can eat whatever you like," and still it is
religion. This is demoniac. That will be explained further. Huh? Pravrttim ca
nivrttim ca na vidur asurah jana [Bg. 16.7]. No, not in the beginning.
Dhrstadyumna: Number twenty-three?
Pradyumna: We just did that one. Text seven.
Dhrstadyumna: Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca...
Prabhupada: You have not recited this verse already? Oh, yes.
Pravrttim ca nivrttim, this is the... They do not know what to do, what to not
do. Because they do not take any standard idea. They manufacture their own
ideas.
Kuladri: In the Catholic Church, they used to have the
doctrine, "No eating meat on Friday." Used to be standard, no meat-eating on
Friday; they would only eat fish. Now within our lifetime they have changed
it.
Dhrstadyumna: They have changed so many things. When I was a
young boy they..., you had to be in church on Sunday morning very early,
otherwise it was noticed. Now you don't have to be till later on. There is no
more austerity in religion.
Pusta Krsna: But if their standard is demoniac to begin
with...
Prabhupada: Therefore they are selling churches. Nobody is
attracted. In London city there are so many churches closed. Nobody goes.
Devotee (1): In Cleveland, also, Prabhupada, there are so
many churches, only five, ten, fifteen people attend, and they are all elderly,
elderly ladies.
Hari-sauri: Due to the Pope's taking a firm stand over the
not allowing abortion and contraception, like this, they said that the number of
practicing Catholics was reduced from seventy-five percent to fifty percent,
just simply because of that one principle that he'd stuck to. So twenty-five
percent immediately left.
Prabhupada: Where they have gone? (laughter)
Hari-sauri: Well, they gave up going to church at
least.
Dhrstadyumna: Hopeless life.
Prabhupada: No, why hopeless? There is hope -- Krsna
consciousness.
Dhrstadyumna: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Hopeless for them.
Pusta Krsna: This very much describes modern civilization
also. They are such asuci-vratah, they are given much respect in modern-day
society. And the devotees, sometimes we go preaching and put into jail.
Prabhupada: It is very fortunate they are not crucifying you.
Putting into jail, but they crucified Lord Jesus Christ, they were so
intelligent. Because he was preaching God consciousness, he was crucified. What
was his fault? He was talking of God, therefore he was crucified.
Dhrstadyumna: Now they only take our sankirtana
collection.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Dhrstadyumna: Now they are just taking our collection. Today
two of my boys, they were arrested just north of here. So as a fine they have
taken their sankirtana collection.
Prabhupada: Robbing. In the name of law, robbing.
Dhrstadyumna: Right, the court has taken it.
Devotee (1): Did this happen in court or the police...?
Dhrtadyumna: In court.
Prabhupada: And then they let go?
Dhrstadyumna: They were let go.
Hari-sauri: They just want some revenue.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are robbing, government, dasyu
dharmabhih. It is stated, government will be like rogues. As the rogues and
thieves, they take away from you by force, the government will do that. In the
court, by income tax, so many people are being harassed.
Dhrstadyumna: There is a large organization called Mafia in
this country.
Prabhupada: Mafia?
Dhrstadyumna: Mafia, organized criminals, organized like
businessmen. They are controlling the politicians by money. But although they
are exposing, still it goes on. It is worse than ever.
Prabhupada: What is that? Explain further.
Hari-sauri: The Mafia is an organization that was originally
coming from Sicily. They were an organized group of men that would control all
the politics in the area by manipulation of money and businessmen.
Devotee (1): And violence.
Hari-sauri: And violence. So many things they'd do. They used
to organize all the heroin that comes into the country, like this, for revenue,
to get revenue, money. So many things. And places like Las Vegas, which is a big
gambling city, that is also run by the Mafia. They control all the casinos and
they control the police, they pay everyone off, like that, and if they don't
agree, they kill them. So like this, their influence is spread everywhere, any
illegal things that are going on.
Prabhupada: Terrorism.
Dhrstadyumna: Our last President, two Presidents ago,
Kennedy, he was involved with one of their prostitutes. She was getting
information, and he was not investigating them because he was involved with one
of their prostitutes.
Prabhupada: They keep prostitutes also?
Dhrstadyumna: Oh, yes, they use them. Actually, they are
controlling many of these judges, and then we are coming in, and we are
preaching the other thing, no prostitution, no drinking, and then we are getting
fines.
Pusta Krsna: If the natural tendency of the living entity is
to want to exist, to live, then why is it they perform so many horrible acts
that will destroy themselves?
Prabhupada: They are thinking that they will exist in that
way.
Pusta Krsna: Is it that they see everyone as their enemy, and
therefore everything has to be around them?
Prabhupada: No, that is foolishness. Everyone wants to exist,
struggle for existence, but they do not know how to exist. That is foolishness.
Everyone wants to exist because actually he is eternal. He doesn't like to be
destroyed. That is his natural inclination. But he does not know. We are giving
the formula that if you want to exist, then you come to Krsna consciousness. We
are giving the right information. But they want to exist in their wrong way of
existing. That is not possible.
Devotee (4): Why is it that the demon, he feels happy if
someone else is distressed.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee (4): Why does the demoniac mentality, that they feel
happy if they see someone else in distress?
Prabhupada: Therefore they are demons. That is demonic
mentality. They are happy when others are unhappy. And when others are happy,
they are unhappy. That is demon.
Devotee (5): They are thinking "I am not so happy, but these
others, they are suffering more, so therefore I am okay."
Prabhupada: No. This is general demonic feeling. If you are
unhappy, then I am happy. And if you are happy, then I am unhappy.
Kuladri: The devotee is described as para-duhkha-duhkhi. He's
only distressed in seeing the distress of others.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Thakura's song is there,
para-duhkhe sukhi. That is natural. Go on.
Dhrstadyumna:
cintam aparimeyam ca
pralayantam upasritah
kamopabhoga-parama
etavad iti niscitah
asa-pasa-satair baddhah
kama-krodha-parayanah
ihante kama-bhogartham
anyayenartha-sancayan
"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life
is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their
anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger,
they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."
Prabhupada: Illegal.
Pusta Krsna: Illegal means.
Dhrstadyumna: Purport. "The demoniac accept that the
enjoyment of the senses is the ultimate goal of life, and this concept they
maintain until death. They do not believe in life after death, and they do not
believe that one takes on different types of bodies according to one's karma, or
activities in this world. Their plans for life are never finished, and they go
on preparing plan after plan, all of which are never finished. We have personal
experience of a person of such demoniac mentality, who, even at the point of
death, was requesting the physician to prolong his life for four years more
because his plans were not yet complete. Such foolish people do not know that a
physician cannot prolong life even for a moment. When the notice is there, there
is no consideration of the man's desire. The laws of nature do not allow a
second beyond what one is destined to enjoy. The demoniac person, who has no
faith in God or the Supersoul within himself, performs all kinds of sinful
activities simply for sense gratification. He does not know that there is a
witness sitting within his heart. The Supersoul is observing the activities of
the individual soul. As it is stated in the Vedic literature, the Upanisads,
there are two birds sitting in one tree; the one is acting and enjoying or
suffering the fruits of the branches, and the other is witnessing. But one who
is demoniac has no knowledge of Vedic scripture, nor has he any faith; therefore
he feels free to do anything for sense enjoyment, regardless of the
consequences."
Prabhupada: Now discuss any points.
Kuladri: One of the richest men in the United States, Howard
Hughes, he just recently died, and he had sores all over his body. With all of
his money, he died in a very miserable condition. He had so many millions and
millions of dollars.
Dhrstadyumna: He said at the time of death, "I think I've
made a mistake."
Prabhupada: What he was?
Dhrstadyumna: He was one of the richest men in the world,
Srila Prabhupada. He was owning all the..., like aircraft, they are making, the
jet airplanes, and he was a movie star in his youth, and he had many beautiful
women, fabulous wealth, he owned hotels all over the world, airplanes, airports,
but...
Pusta Krsna: At the end of his life he didn't even mix with
women so much though. He became very despondent and depressed. He was like a
hermit.
Dhrstadyumna: He was afraid of germs.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Pusta Krsna: He became like a hermit. He withdrew into
himself. No one knew very much about him; he was very mysterious so far as his
life with the public was concerned. But towards the end of his life he didn't
live a very elaborate life of sense gratification at all. No one knew much about
him at all.
Hari-sauri: This description is perfect, actually, because
most of his fortunes they calculate he amassed by many illegal methods, like
paying off police and fixing so many things up. With his money, he was always
able to buy government officials and like this and get so many contracts to
further the development of his aircraft companies and this and that.
Prabhupada: He has manufactured airplanes?
Hari-sauri: Yes, he had something to do with airplanes. And
also he had a lot of land in Las Vegas, this gambling city. So many... He was
involved in many mysterious maneuvers. It's open in the newspapers, they said
that he got most of his money from illegal methods.
Dhrstadyumna: In his old age he was very afraid of germs. He
didn't want to catch any disease. So he would wear..., he would live in
perfectly sealed rooms with all artificial air and light, so no germs could
exist, and he would wear these...
Prabhupada: He did not know that he's creating germs within
his body.
Dhrstadyumna: He could not avoid death.
Prabhupada: If there was no germs, how he died? So at last he
said?
Dhrstadyumna: He said something to the effect that "I don't
know what this life was about. I think I've made a mistake." Just at the
end.
Prabhupada: Yes, it was mistake.
Dhrstadyumna: Everyone is envious of such persons, Srila
Prabhupada. They think that "Yes, he could not enjoy his wealth, but if I had
that wealth I would enjoy it." But then if they get it, then they also
fail.
Prabhupada: Hmm. Next, what is next?
Hari-sauri: Half past eight.
Pusta Krsna: Should we take your leave now, Srila
Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No, I have no objection to sit down here. If you
want to stop, we can stop, chant Hare Krsna. [break]
Dhrstadyumna:
idam adya maya labdham
imam prapsye manoratham
idam astidam api me
bhavisyati punar dhanam
asau maya hatah satrur
hanisye caparan api
isvaro 'ham aham bhogi
siddho 'ham balavan sukhi
adhyo 'bhijanavan asmi
ko 'nyo 'sti sadrso maya
yaksye dasyami modisya
ity ajnana-vimohitah
"The demoniac person thinks: 'So much wealth do I have today,
and I will gain more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will
increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him,
and my other enemies will also be killed. I am the lord of everything. I am the
enjoyer. I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by
aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall
perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In
this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance." These are timeless statements
Srila Prabhupada. Krsna has spoken for all time by these words.
aneka-citta-vibhranta
moha-jala-samavrtah
prasaktah kama-bhogesu
patanti narake 'sucau
Prabhupada: Our Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, the formula is
therefore: as soon as you get money, fifty percent spent for printing and fifty
percent for temple. This is the basic principle of our Bhaktivedanta (Book
Trust) -- no saving. As soon as you have got some money, print books, print
books. Don't keep it. If you print books, some day somebody will read. But if we
keep money, it creates disturbance. I am therefore always insisting, "Print
books, Print books." Or construct temple, this building, that building. There is
no need of keeping money.
Dhrstadyumna: You said your Guru Maharaja used to keep the
temples in debt all the time.
Prabhupada: Mm. (pause) So you don't require covering? This
girl? This cloth is sufficient? What you think? Why you have no covering? Mm?
You do not require cloth?
Kuladri: It is warm for us Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: No, if they require, there must be supply. You
must ask them what they need and provide them because they do not say you'll
also keep silent. That's not good. Every month they must be asked what they
need. Necessities, they must be supplied. We have already discussed this point,
the women, they require protection, children, women. All right, you can...
Devotees: Jaya.
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New
Vrindaban
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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