Woman reporter: When you came to
Chicago last week you said you were going to tell us some of the solutions to
our problems in this country. Can you tell me what some of those solutions
are?
Prabhupada: Solution not only of your country or our country,
it is the solution for the whole human society. I told that as there are
different divisions in the same body, the head, the arms, the belly, and the
leg... Although the body is one, but there are different parts for different
function. Then the body is going nicely. The head is the most important part of
the body. So if the head is not in order, then, in spite of presentation of
other parts of the body, hands, leg, the body is useless. Just like a madman.
Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the presentation of the
hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly, the human society
should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not everyone is on the
same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be four divisions:
first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means... The definition of
the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the first-class man.
Nitai:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance,
honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness -- these are the qualities by
which the brahmanas work."
Prabhupada: This is first-class man. Then second-class
man?
Nitai:
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.43]
"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in
battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the
ksatriyas."
Prabhupada: This is second-class. And then third-class?
Nitai:
krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam
vaisya-karma svabhava-jam
paricaryatmakam karma
sudrasyapi svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.44]
Prabhupada: That is fourth-class. First of all,
third-class.
Nitai: Third-class: "Farming, cattle raising and business are
the qualities of work for the vaisyas,..."
Prabhupada: Not cattle raising, cow protection.
Nitai: Cow protection.
Prabhupada: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this
is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions
must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same
example, that if the different parts of the body -- the brain, the arms, the
belly and the legs -- all are in order, the bodily function will go on very
nicely. This is natural.
Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four
classes?
Prabhupada: That I already explained. Women's position is
subordinate to man. So if the man is first-class, the woman is first-class. If
the man is second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class,
the woman is third-class. In this... Because woman is meant for assisting man,
so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband.
Woman reporter: Would you say that women are inferior to
men?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Woman reporter: Why?
Prabhupada: By physiological condition. Just like you are.
Your bodily features are different from the man's features. You cannot deny it.
So according to the bodily features, the psychological condition and everything
is there. How you can deny it?
Woman reporter: Do you think that I am inferior to you?
Prabhupada: It is not the question of inferior or superior.
Different. Now you take one inferior or superior. That is your calculation. But
the bodily features are different. That is material. But spiritually, they are
all one. Materially... Just like your bodily feature and a man's bodily feature
is different. Now, so far question of inferior, superior, that is your
calculation. But we say that by nature, a woman and man is different.
Woman reporter: What does this mean as far as whether women
can do the same things that men can do, or whether women can lead people?
Prabhupada: Well, women can bear children, but the man
cannot. Is it possible to bear children? A man can become pregnant? Is it
possible?
Woman reporter: No.
Prabhupada: Physically... Therefore there are so many things
which is possible in man and which is not possible in woman, by nature. How you
can say that they are of the same nature?
Woman reporter: I'm not saying they're the same. What
can...
Prabhupada: Then if you not saying that, then they are
different in their physiological condition. So now this physiological condition,
you may calculate, "This is better, this is better." That is your calculation.
Our calculation is the man and woman are different in their physiological
condition.
Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to
men.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the
husband and wife are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter
is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.
Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate
to men?
Prabhupada: Then there is disruption. There is disruption,
social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there
is social disruption. Therefore, in the western countries there are so many
divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man.
That is the cause.
Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not
want to be subordinate to men?
Prabhupada: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the
Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.
Woman reporter: What should we do in the United States? We're
trying to make women equal with men.
Prabhupada: I am not trying. You are already not equal with
the man because in so many respects, your functions are different and man's
functions are different. Why do you say artificially they are equal? As I told
you that the husband and wife -- the wife has to become pregnant, not the
husband. How you can change this, both the husband and wife will be pregnant? Is
it possible? Is it possible?
Woman reporter: No, it is not.
Prabhupada: Then by nature one has to function differently
from the other.
Woman reporter: But why does this mean...?
Prabhupada: So how you can change?
Woman reporter: Why does this mean that women have to be
subordinate?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Woman reporter: Just because they bear children and men
can't?
Prabhupada: Well, by nature... No, as soon as you get
children, you require support from the husband. Otherwise you are in
difficulty.
Woman reporter: Many women have children and have no support
from husbands. They have no husband.
Prabhupada: Then they have to take support from others. You
cannot deny that. The government is giving you support. But the government is
embarrassed. If the husband supports the wife and children, the government is
relieved of so much welfare contribution. So that is a problem.
Woman reporter: What happens when women support men?
Prabhupada: First of all try to understand that you depend.
The... After man and woman unite, there is children, and the man goes away, and
you are embarrassed. The woman is embarrassed. Why? Why this is, is made
possible? A man and woman unites, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the
husband goes away. Then the poor woman is embarrassed with the child. She has to
beg from the government. So do you think it is very nice thing? The Vedic idea
is that woman should be married to a man and the man should take charge of the
woman and the children independently so that they do not become a burden to the
government or to the public.
Woman reporter: Do you think the social unrest...
Prabhupada: I am thinking like this. You give me the answer.
Simply you go on questioning. I question you, do you think this burden to the
government or the public is good?
Woman reporter: I don't understand what you're saying.
Nitai: Do you think that the burden caused when the husband
goes away from the wife, that burden to the government is good?
Woman reporter: No.
Prabhupada: So that has happened. Because the woman does not
agree to be subordinate -- she wants equal freedom -- so the husband goes away
and the woman is embarrassed with the children. And it becomes a burden to the
government.
Woman reporter: Is there anything wrong when the woman
works?
Prabhupada: There are so many things wrong. But first thing
is the wife, the woman, the wife of somebody, and the child born by somebody,
they should become burden to the government or to the public. First of all
answer this thing. Why she should become burden to the government? What is your
answer? Do you think, from social point of view, this position of woman and the
fatherless children are very nice thing? No.
Woman reporter: What I'm trying to say is that... This may
happen to some women. I'm talking about women who are not...
Prabhupada: Not... These are the general cases. You cannot
say, "some." I see in America mostly the woman...
Woman reporter: Oh, then what you're saying is not all women
should be subordinate to all men.
Prabhupada: No, woman should be subordinate to the man, so
that the man can take charge of the woman. Then that woman is not a problem to
the public.
Woman reporter: Is it true for all woman and all men?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the nature. You take even in the
dogs. The dogs they also take care of their children. The tigers, they take care
of the children. So in the human society, if the woman is made pregnant and the
man goes away and she is embarrassed, she has to beg from the government, that
is not a very good situation.
Woman reporter: What about women who do not have
children?
Prabhupada: Well, that is also another unnatural thing.
Sometimes they use contraceptives. They kill children, abortion. That is also
not very good. These are all sinful activities. These are sinful activities, to
kill child in the womb. And take shelter of abortion. These are all sinful
activities. One has to suffer for that.
Woman reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused
because...
Prabhupada: Because of these things. They do not know
that.
Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it
would solve all of our problems?
Prabhupada: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate,
faithful to him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man's mentality, woman's
mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate
to man, then the family life will be peaceful.
Woman reporter: Thank you. It's late.
TV Cameraman: Any more questions?
Woman reporter: Yes. I'll ask the same questions again, do
not answer.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Nitai: She's going to ask the same questions, but no need to
answer. They're just going to photograph her. This is for on TV they will show
her asking the questions. [break]
Woman reporter: What will you do in Philadelphia?
Prabhupada: The same thing. I have got my temple there. I
stay there, and I teach people according to my philosophy.
Woman reporter: Is Philadelphia your last stop in...
Prabhupada: No, no, I travel all over United States. Then I
will go to Europe. Then I will go to Africa. I have got my touring program for 4
months. [break]
Woman reporter: There's one more question I'm going to ask.
Is that tea? Is that tea that you're drinking?
Prabhupada: No, we don't drink tea. We don't drink tea, don't
drink liquor. We don't smoke. This is our process, no illicit sex, no meat
eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Unless one is married, there is no sex.
And unless one is going to beget child, there is no sex. Not for pleasure. This
is our regulative principle.
Woman reporter: You have different schools for men and women,
is that correct?
Prabhupada: Yes. Man is regulated to become a first-class
man, and woman is regulated to become very chaste and faithful wife.
Woman reporter: There is one more question.
Prabhupada: Then the life will be very successful. And
marriage, compulsory. Marriage, compulsory.
Woman reporter: Everyone should marry?
Prabhupada: Yes. Every woman, at least, should be married.
Therefore, according to Vedic conception, polygamy is allowed.
Woman reporter: Is allowed?
Prabhupada: Yes. Because every woman must be married. But
every man may not be married. Therefore man has to accept more than one
wife.
Woman reporter: There is one question I have for you. You say
that a woman's brain is smaller than a man's.
Prabhupada: Woman?
Nitai: Woman's brain is smaller than a man's brain.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. In the history there is no
woman who is a big philosopher, a big mathematician, big scientist, big
educationist. We don't find. They were all men.
Woman reporter: What about women who are leaders of countries
such as your own country?
Prabhupada: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is
never offered leadership. But experience has shown that woman's leadership has
not been successful.
Woman reporter: Do you think Mrs. Gandhi's leadership has not
been successful?
Prabhupada: Well, there is already trouble. There are many
big, big men, they do not agree with her and she has taken emergency steps. So
on the whole, the country is in trouble.
Woman reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of
Israel?
Prabhupada: I do not say of any particular woman, but
according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in the history that woman
has become a leader.
Woman reporter: Women have been leaders.
Prabhupada: They were not selected. The leader -- formerly it
was monarchy -- the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the
first-class men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the
society.
Woman reporter: What about women who are elected by the
people?
Prabhupada: Well, people election... Just like you elected
Nixon and then you wanted him to come down. So this kind of election has no
value. Sometimes you elect and sometimes you pull down. So what is the value of
this election?
Woman reporter: So a leader should not be elected.
Prabhupada: Elected, but not by this general public. They
have no intelligence. They sometimes elect a wrong man, and again they try to
drag him down. So what is the use of such election? Because that election is not
sober, not mature. If the election was mature and sober, then there was no need
of dragging him down again.
Woman reporter: We have talked to scientists who say that the
size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence. Do you believe
that?
Prabhupada: I think that the scientists do not think like
that. They keep the brain of a particular scientist to study. They keep the
heart of a particular noble man. Why they try to study the heart and the brain
if there is no difference?
Nitai: Sometimes they keep the brain of a great scientist to
study because they think that he is so intelligent, there must be something we
can learn from studying the brain. So if they are thinking like that, then there
also must be a difference between a woman's brain and a man's brain.
Woman reporter: What they say is that there is difference,
but it has nothing to do with the size.
Nitai: Then why do they keep great scientists' brain to
study?
Woman reporter: They keep many people's brains to
study.
Nitai: Especially great scientists, that they want to see
what has made this man so intelligent.
Woman reporter: That's not necessarily true.
Prabhupada: Then why they study the brain? What is the
purpose of studying brain unless there is difference? You study different
brains. Unless you feel that there is difference between this brain and that
brain, why do you study. What is the meaning of study?
Woman reporter: To find differences among men. It's not
necessarily differences between men and woman.
Prabhupada: I don't say man or woman. But I say you study
different brains -- why? Unless you think there is some difference?
Woman reporter: There is difference.
Prabhupada: Yes. So if there is difference, then what is the
harm if there is difference between man and woman's brain?
Woman reporter: They say there isn't.
Prabhupada: They say, but the fact we have to study. As soon
as you study the construction of different brain, then you must know that there
is difference, different activities.
Woman reporter: In other words, you do not believe this, what
they say.
Prabhupada: Then why do you study different brain?
Woman reporter: I don't study them. I'm just telling you what
the scientists say.
Prabhupada: So scientists, the psychologist... As I was a
student of psychology and our professor, a big man, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he said
that "By studying the brains of man and woman, we have found the highest brain
substance found in man, sixty-four ounce by weight." You may deny. This is the
statement of a big psychologist. You can shake your head, but this is the
scientific words by big psychologist. You can note down his name, Dr. W.S.
Urquhart, professor of psychology in the Scottish Churches College in
1918-20.
Woman reporter: Oh, dear, no wonder. 1918-1920, that means...
O.K. I see now what you're thinking about. That was many, many years ago.
Prabhupada: So can you give any proof since then that the
woman's... In 1920... She does not take it?
Nitai: She does not take it. Somehow they think that the
brain is no longer small. If it was small, then, it is not small today.
Prabhupada: But where is the proof...
Woman reporter: You do not believe that there has been
advancement of science since 1920?
Nitai: Well, if the brain has been ascertained as being half
the size then why should it change by now? Should it change?
Woman reporter: Well, do you think that the Romans weren't as
tall as men are today?
Nitai: No, but the... But then, within fifty years there is
not going to be any change in the brain.
Woman reporter: Not in the 1900's. Why do you use the
technology that you use? You didn't have cars in those days, this television.
Things have changed since 1920.
Prabhupada: So what change has become? Can you give any
evidence that woman is more powerful in brain than the man during these years?
Can you give any evidence?
Woman reporter: No, what I'm saying is that...
Prabhupada: Now, can you give any evidence that woman has
become more powerful than the man during these fifty years?
Woman reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is that? Give me some tacit example.
Woman reporter: That she and I wouldn't be here if women
weren't more powerful than they were fifty years ago.
Harikesa: Now they are talking louder. (laughter)
Woman reporter: Than you. Thank you. (woman leaves)
Harikesa: The scientists have the theory that the brain, the
intelligence is measured by creases in the brain, creases, not by size.
Prabhupada: Not size, but what is the proof that the brain of
woman has increased? Where is the proof?
Harikesa: They think because the ego has increased, the brain
has also increased.
Prabhupada: Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice.
(laughing) So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the
man, the one party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should
become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become
angry and to go away, that means defeat.
Harikesa: They become upset because they cannot dominate
you.
Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of domination; it is
the question of logic. If you do not agree to logic, then no argument can make
progress.
Uttamasloka: Srila Prabhupada, if one does not agree to
logic, does that mean that they are under the influence of tamo-guna?
Prabhupada: That means he is animal.
Guest: Under the influence of who?
Uttamasloka: Tamo-guna.
Harikesa: It's the mode of ignorance.
Guest: Who?
Harikesa: The mode of ignorance.
Prabhupada: Logic is meant for learned man, and uneducated
man, they want to force, "Yes, you must do it." With point of revolver, "You
must do it." And educated man, they argue on logic. That is the difference.
[break] ...queens of Krsna, they are giving statement as maidservant of Krsna.
You have read that portion? When there was talk between Kunti and queens of
Krsna, the queens presented themself as maidservant of Krsna.
Harikesa: The men have become the servants of the
women.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Harikesa: Women's liberation has become successful because
man is now the servant of woman.
Prabhupada: It is not successful. That I was pointing out. It
has caused the disaster because the whole women become dependent on the welfare
gift of the government, and the government has to raise tax heavily for this
purpose. The tax is given by the general public, but it is going for one
individual person, and I have heard that government is embarrassed. They are now
making enquiry about the welfare gifts.
Nitai: There's many scandals there.
Prabhupada: There are now so many scandals. So these are the
problems. Why? The man leaves the woman uncared for.
Brahmananda: One statistic has come that there are more
people in this country receiving welfare than there are those who are employed
in jobs outside of government. That means the government is actually spending
for more people than... [break]
Prabhupada: Is not that a problem to the government?
Nitai: A huge problem.
Harikesa: Taxes are very high. Everyone is complaining about
taxes being too high.
Prabhupada: Problem is already there and if they think it is
not problem, then what can be said? By nature's way, if the husband takes care
of the wife and children, this problem is solved immediately. But the man takes
advantage. He goes away after making the woman pregnant. And the woman is
embarrassed and the government is embarrassed.
Harikesa: And the child grows up to be a criminal.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hippies. That is another problem. So they
are not far-seeing. The immediate benefit they want. What will be the effect?
That is animal civilization. Animal cannot see what will be the future.
Therefore we have to take advice from Krsna. One who knows past, present, and
future. Everything is there. We are spreading this knowledge, that "Take your
council from Krsna. Then you'll be happy." That is our program.
Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, if we speak these things on
television and the newspapers and people become angry, if all the people become
angry like she does, is it still good propaganda for us?
Prabhupada: No, then we chant Hare Krsna. We don't make
disturbance. But in the Bhagavad-gita everything is discussed, this
varna-sankara and the first-class man, second-class man. If we have to push on
Krsna consciousness movement, then we have to discuss. But if they do not like,
better chant Hare Krsna and don't discuss anything. But these things are
discussed. If you are not agreeable to hear from Bhagavad-gita, then let us
chant together Hare Krsna. That's all. But these things are discussed in the
Bhagavad-gita about varna-sankara. If the population, varna-sankara, is
increased, then it becomes hell. So if you want to increase the hellish person,
then don't discuss. But if you think it is a problem, then discuss.
Satsvarupa: As a brahmana, we have to be truthful. When in
Hong Kong they asked you what you thought of Guru Maharaji, you said you could
not help yourself.
Prabhupada: Yes. I said that he is a great cheat. What can I
say? And it has been proved now. (laughter) I said in my book, Easy Journey to
Other..., that this moon excursion is childish, and it has been proved now. Now
they don't talk about the moon excursion because they are failure. So ten years
ago or more than that, I said that it is only childish. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Television Interview -- July 9, 1975,
Chicago
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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