Guest (4): We are the victims of
the British Empire who ruled us.
Prabhupada: Huh? No, you are victims of yourself. Why...?
British is not here now.
Guest (8) (Indian man): We are indoctrined.
Prabhupada: British is not here now.
Guest (8): No, they have indoctrined such a philosophy.
Guest (2): But what was there before British came? This is
human weakness of our own.
Prabhupada: It is... You... You have been taught that Krsna
is an ordinary person, maybe little more in knowledge. That you are taking like
that. Kupa-manduka-nyaya. Kupa-manda, the toad in the well, he is informed, "Oh,
I have seen one Atlantic Ocean." So he is thinking "Atlantic Ocean may be....
This well is three feet. It may be four feet. Or five. Come on, ten." These
rascals are thinking like that -- avajananti mam mudha [Bg. 9.11] -- that "Krsna
may be more intelligent by one feet or two feet. Let us compromise-ten feet."
This is going on. And Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat: [Bg. 7.7] "I am the
Supreme." They won't believe. They'll manufacture their ideas. This is going on.
Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. They won't believe that. And still, they'll
declare, "I am student of Bhagavad-gita." They won't believe a word of Krsna,
and they'll say, "I am student of Bhagavad-gita." This is going on. This is our
position. In India everyone says, "I have read Bhagavad-gita three hundred
times," but he does not know even a word. So this should be stopped. If we want
to advance actually, you take every word of Bhagavad-gita and try to apply in
life. Then everyone will be happy. That is a fact. The instruction is there.
There is no difficulty to understand. There is no question of interpretation.
Simply take it as it is and try to apply it in life -- you'll be happy. And your
human life will be successful. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Up to
this human form of life, we have passed through so many evolutionary process,
but if you understand Krsna, then, after leaving this body, no more material
body.
janma karma ca divyam
me yo janati tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti...
[Bg. 4.9]
And that is success. If you simply study Krsna, then your
life is successful.
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Yes, sahaja, this is sahaja. You are part and
parcel of Krsna. Sahaja. Sahaja means you are born along with Krsna. Krsna is
neither born, neither you are born. Sahaja, this word, means saha ja, "along
with born." So you are part and parcel. Just like this finger is part and parcel
of my body. When I was born the finger was also born. This is saha-ja. The
finger was not separately born. When I was born, the finger was born. So
similarly, so long God is there, I am also there. So God is eternal; I am also
eternal. You understand this? Then why you are changing bodies? And that is
knowledge.
Guest (9) (Indian man): No, why do we at all enter into this
circle?
Prabhupada: That I have already explained. You want to be a
separate Krsna. That is your ambition.
Guest (9): Initial thing is that.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is initial. A servant, big man's
servant... That is natural, that "If I would have become the master." So a
servant, if he wants to become the master, that is artificial. A servant remains
a servant -- he is happy. And as soon as he tries artificially to become the
master, that is the beginning of distress. So we are eternal servant of God. As
soon as we try to become God, that is the beginning of our suffering.
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) The starting is there.
Iccha-dvesa-samutthena sarge yanti parantapa [Bg. 7.27]. (Hindi) Krsna bhuliya
jiva bhoga vancha kare, pasate maya tare japatiya dhare. As soon as you desire
like this, that "I shall become God," so immediately there is maya. That is
maya. So when you are entangled in maya, then there is question of mukti. The
mukti means muktir hitva 'nyatha rupam svarupena avasthitih. This is mukti.
Mukti means when we are acting differently. That is my condition. That is my
bondage. And when I act according to my original position, that is mukti. So
everyone is acting here to become master. So there is no question of mukti. As
soon as you understand that "My real position is I am servant of God, so let me
act as serv..." -- then it is mukti. Hitva 'nyatha rupam. At the present moment
we are trying to act as master. So you give it down, up. Act as servant. Then
you are mukta. Therefore a bhakta is mukta. Sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. Mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena-bhakti-yogena sevate [Bg.
14.26]. Anyone who is engaged as bhakta, he is mukta. All are conditioned. So if
you become bhakta, if you surrender to Krsna, immediately mukti, instantly.
Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
[Bg. 18.66]. You are conditioned, you are bound up on account of your sinful
activities. So Krsna says, "I'll give you relief from all the reaction of sinful
activity. You surrender." So mukti means one second. You surrender to Krsna. It
takes one second. But that is very difficult. That requires many, many births.
Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many
births of suffering, when he comes to the knowledge that "I am servant of Krsna.
Why I am trying to become master?" that is jnanavan. And then he surrenders
to.... Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma [Bg. 7.19]. That is mahatma. It takes one
second.
Guest (10) (Indian man): Prabhupada, surrender, sar..., word,
if you can give us a full explanation of the word surrender. What's the meaning
of surrender and how one should do it? Basis of surrender.
Prabhupada: Surrender, this is surrender, that... First of
all, why you surrender? You must know it perfectly well that "Krsna is master; I
am servant." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. Then you have to
believe that "Krsna says, aham tvam sarva papebhyo moksayisyami. So now I have
surrendered. I have no more fear. Krsna will give me protection." To believe
firmly... "Krsna is all powerful. Krsna is my master. He is not a fakir, that
He's talking nonsense." We have to believe that. This is surrender. If you
think, "Krsna is another fakir like me. He's talking nonsense," then that is not
surrender. You have to believe that. That is explained in the
Caitanya-caritamrta, that sraddha sabde visvasa niscaya. This is sraddha.
Sraddha is the beginning. That sraddha means when you firmly believe in Krsna:
"Yes, He'll give me protection." That is surrender. Krsne bhakti kaile
sarva-karma krta haya. When you come to this stage, firmly believe in the words
of Krsna, that is surrender. First of all, you have to check yourself whether
you firmly believe in the words of God. If you don't believe, there is no
question of surrender. Then you remain where you are. This is firm belief:
"Krsna says that He will give me protection. So let me surrender. I have
surrendered to maya. I have not become happy. So why not surrender to Krsna?"
This is intelligence. You are not free. Then why you are declaring yourself as
free? This is your disease. So intelligent means that I have no freedom
actually. I am acting under the dictation of my senses. I am servant of my
senses. So why not become servant of Krsna? This is intelligent. Everyone is
acting under senses, order of the senses. Kamadinam kathidha na kathida palita
durni-desah. Even I don't want to do it, something wrong, but my senses are
dictating, so "All right, let me do it." So we are... I am servant of the
senses. My position is twofold. Either I become the servant of the senses or I
become servant of Krsna. My position is the same. Simply I have to change it.
Guest (10): How to run away from the senses? I, being a
servant of the senses, how to run away from the senses?
Prabhupada: Yes. You are servant. That is gosvami. That is
svami, gosvami. Svami means when he's no longer servant of the senses, a master
of the senses. That is svami.
Guest (10): How to come to that position?
Prabhupada: That requires education, training. You have
become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer.
Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he
must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Krsna." Then
everything is there. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato
'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha tato rucih tatah athasaktih tato bhavah [Cc.
Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the different stages. Adau sraddha: "Yes. Now Krsna
says, 'You surrender.' I'll surrender. I believe in this, firmly believe."
Sraddha-sabde visvasa sudrdha niscaya. This sraddha means when you firmly
believe that "Krsna will give me all protection if I surrender." And that is the
beginning of sraddha.
Guest (10): Faith. Firm faith.
Prabhupada: Faith. Yes. Faith means firm faith. Faith does
not mean... Anyway, adau sraddha. This sraddha, if we increase this sraddha, you
have to associate with sadhu.. And who is sadhu? Bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur
eva samantavyah. He is sadhu, who is simply engaged in Krsna's service. He is
sadhu. Api cet suduracarah: "Even though you find there is some discrepancies in
his character, because he is fully engaged in My service, he is sadhu." Sadhur
eva sa mantavyah samyag vyavasito hi sah [Bg. 9.30]. If he has got other
engagement, he is not sadhu. Anyabhilasita-sunyam: [Brs. 1.1.11] "Other
engagement zero." That is sadhu. The sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. You have to
associate with such sadhus who are cent percent engaged in Krsna's service. Adau
sraddha tato sadhu-sangah tato bhajana-kriya. If you mix with the sadhu, then
you'll learn the activities. Sadhu-marganugamanam. The sadhus are rising early
in the morning; they are attending mangala arati, they are reading
Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, then dressing the Deity and having arati and
so on, so on, so on. This is called bhajana-kriya. Adau sraddha tatah
sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Then anartha-nivrttih syat: then
all these material activities will stop. Because if you are engaged in spiritual
act..., where is your time for material activities, for drinking wine and eating
meat and going to the restaurant and...? No time. These boys, although they are
trained up from childhood how to eat meat, how to drink, but now they have no
time. They never ask me, "Swamiji, give me one rupee. I shall go to the cinema."
Never. They have no time. Anartha-nivrttih syat, all anarthas finished. These
are the stages. Then his life becomes of devotion. Athasaktih nistha: "Yes, I
shall stick to Krsna consciousness." Tato nistha rucih. Rucih means taste.
Unless they have got taste, why they should remain with me? They are not coming
from poor family. His father is a big lawyer. You know? Yes. So why he is living
with me? He has got taste, rucis. Tato nistha tato rucih, athasaktih. Asaktih,
attachment. Whenever I am there, they are coming. Asaktih. Tato bhavah. "Oh, I
am servant of Krsna. I have to do this." These are the different stages.
Sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah. These are the different
stages, kramah. Kramah means gradual evolution. So you have to take that gradual
evolution. But it will be done if you remain with the associate. Sangat
sanjayate kamah. They are giving this opportunity. Come here in our association
and learn the art. I have seen in Bombay. The other day I went to a gentleman's
apartment. He is.... The gentleman is earning two thousand, and the wife is
earning seven hundred. But they are living in an apartment of this size. Within
this, there is bedroom, and there is kitchen, and there is toilet, and
everything is there. And if we say people, "Please come here. Take a room like
this and chant Hare Krsna," they'll not come. They'll prefer to remain in that
tiny apartment. Am I right or not? Manda-bhagya. Mandah sumanda-matayo
manda-bhagya hy upadrutah [SB 1.1.10]. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has
declared, ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kono bhagyavan jiva. They are rotting or
rotating within this universe in different species of life. But if by chance he
becomes fortunate, then take to Krsna consciousness.
ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kono bhagyavan jiva
guru-krsna krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija
[Cc. Madhya 19.151]
All living entities are rotting in this way, but if some of
them or one of them becomes very fortunate, then by the grace of guru and Krsna
he gets this line of devotional service. It is for the most fortunate person,
not ordinary.
Guest (10): What's the difference between grace and mercy?
Prabhupada: Grace means he'll willingly give you mercy, and
mercy means you ask for mercy. Krpa-siddha. Sadhana-siddha and krpa-siddha. You
are trying to earn one lakh of rupees -- that is sadhana. But if somebody is
gracious he can give you: "Take one lakh of rupees. Don't work hard." That is
grace. That is krpa. You are ambitious for one lakh of rupees or somebody
graciously give you: "All right, take." There are many persons. So that is
grace. Otherwise, you earn by your hard labor. That is sadhana. Similarly, by
association, by sadhana-bhakti, you attain perfection, and by grace also, you
can attain perfection. Two ways. So those who are krpa-siddha, they are more
fortunate. (Hindi) Preach this Bhagavad-gita as it is. People will be benefited.
You'll be benefited. Don't make unnecessary interpretation, misguide others and
spoil your own life. That is very unfortunate. What is the difficulty to accept
Bhagavad-gita? There is no difficulty. Unfortunately we interpret in different
way and take it other way. So our little attempt is to spread Bhagavad-gita as
it is, and whatever it may be, it is being accepted in the Western countries.
Not by all. But the people in general, now the... Feeling the weight, they have
now began opposing.
Indian man: Have seen the new light.
Prabhupada: Yes. They're opposing me very vigorously in
America.
Indian man: And that is a good sign.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our victory, when there is
opposition, and that is our victory. In spite of opposition, we are selling our
books in large quantity. Yes. Large quantity. What is the one week sale that?
Eighteen lakhs or something like...
Giriraja: In one week, the books, total of books, was seven
lakhs books in one week.
Indian man: In one week? That would be hundred thousand
dollars.
Prabhupada: No, no. More than. Eh? Seven lakhs?
Guest (11) (Indian man): But mostly they are in America. Also
in that number in Japan?
Prabhupada: No, America. And opposition is also in America.
No, Europe and America, they are taking.
Guest (10): Opposition is natural. Because you are converting
their churches into temples.
Prabhupada: No, there are many... First thing is that my
students are advised, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication up to the
point of smoking cigarette and drinking tea, and no gambling." But this is their
life. How they can give up this? That is... It is a shock. Therefore they say,
"brainwashing," that "How a gentleman can give up all these things?" Many... No
many. A few of my students, they left. They said that "Swamiji is denying the
primary necessities of life." They left. They could not tolerate even. So I do
not make any compromise. That you want to become my student you have to give up
these things. So the responsible parents, they are appreciating that "My son is
now purified." But some of them, there are...
Guest (2): They feel that you are kidnapping their children.
(laughs)
Prabhupada: And therefore they are kidnapping. His father,
mother came in Calcutta. His mother asked, "Swamiji, please return my son." And
"Take your son."
Guest (2): He?
Prabhupada: "Return my son." And "Take your son." And then he
was asked, and he was silent. So mother began to cry. So I promised that "I
shall send your son. He'll go. Don't bother." His father, mother came. And many
father, mother come to give me thanks, "Swamiji, it is great fortune of our
country that you have come."
Guest (10): Similar instance about a man swami also, Parsee
boy who is now in Hyderabad.
Giriraja: Mahamsa.
Prabhupada: Her (His) said, mother in the beginning she
opposed. Yes, she is happy now.
Guest (10): She wants to meet you, Prabhupada. Can I bring
her tomorrow?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Guest (2): You are going to Kumbha Mela tomorrow?
Prabhupada: Day after. So our movement is genuine. Now it is
up to you to help this movement. And there is no concoction. From... Sa evayam
maya te 'dya yogah proktah puratanah [Bg. 4.3]. As Krsna said five thousand
years ago, yogah proktah puratanah, so we are also presenting that puratanah.
This philosophy is not new. Puratanah. So we have nothing to tax our brain to
manufacture something new. So people give me credit: "Swamiji, you have done
wonderful, wonderful." I do not know magic. But I am presenting puratanah,
that's all, no adulteration. If there is any credit, the credit is this-yogah
proktah puratanah.
Guest (4): Puratanah and Sasvata,
Prabhupada: Puratanah means sasvata. Yes. Nityah sasvato 'yam
puratanah. So the sun is puratanah. The sun is puratanah, but the shining is the
same. And similarly if we present the puratanah yoga, then it is effective. Then
it is effective.
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends -- January 9,
1977, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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