Bhubanesvara, February 1, 1977
download Players
Svarupa Damodara: We need to show the
alternative.Prabhupada: No, a child can see there are two things, that what
is the difference between a living man and dead man. So my father was living one
moment before. Now he is dead. The something is missing. The two things are
there. Where is the difficulty? And these big, big scientists, they cannot
understand. How less intelligent they are. Immediately understood two things,
but something is missing.
Svarupa Damodara: Somehow they have developed this false understanding that everything can be reduced to atoms and molecules.
Prabhupada: That is still less intelligence, still less intelligence. Kartaham iti manyate.
Svarupa Damodara: Because life is something which is beyond experimental knowledge...
Prabhupada: That means they do not know. Say that, "beyond experimental knowledge" or "beyond your capacity."
Svarupa Damodara: Still, they are hesitant to say that.
Prabhupada: That is their poor fund of knowledge. A gentleman will accept, "Yes, we do not know." But they, in round about way, in order to keep their position, they'll bluff. That is most dangerous, bluffing.
Svarupa Damodara: That's the difficulty.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the... If one wants to be cheated and wants to cheat others, you cannot... Sarpah krurah khalah krurah. There are crooked living entities; one who is snake, and one is man. So you can control the snake, but you cannot control this rascal crooked man. That is very difficult. Khalah kena nivaryate. He'll remain crooked, however you say. I told you that story? Scissor? Scissor? Yes. Because he's human being, he'll persist, and the other one, the animal, you can bring her, bring that animal under control. But because he is human being, you cannot bring him under control. He will persist.
Gurukrpa: What was that story of Caesar?
Prabhupada: Huh? Tell him.
Satsvarupa: Scissors. Two men were arguing...
Gurukrpa: Oh, the scissors.
Prabhupada: Scissor logic.
Devotee: What is that?
Satsvarupa: One man said a knife was used...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: ...and the other said, "No, it was a scissor that was used." And they began arguing back and forth, and finally one man who held that it was a knife, he threw the other man in the river...
Prabhupada: That "You accept that it is done by scissor." So he said, "No, I won't tolerate." Then he pushed him in the water. Then he was doing like this. (laughter) Scissor logic.
Bhagavata: Argumentum vaculam.
Prabhupada: That was used. He was put in the water. "Either you accept or I shall push you in the water." "No, I'll not accept." (laughter) So these rascals are like that. They are failure. They cannot. Still, they'll do, (laughter) the so-called scientists.
Svarupa Damodara: They have an international society for doing that.
Prabhupada: Yes. They must combine. Otherwise there is no place for them. As soon as they accept that there is something beyond physical, then they'll have to accept God.
Svarupa Damodara: Just like when we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, then they're very amused.
Prabhupada: That is...
Svarupa Damodara: "What is it? If it is nonphysical nonchemical, then what it is?" They inquire.
Prabhupada: Spiritual.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, but...
Prabhupada: That means they have to accept two things -- material and spiritual. [break] ...little difficult. Therefore we have to understand from the authority. The same argument, that you have to understand who is your father from the mother. There is no other... [break] ...Krsna says in the beginning, tatha dehantara-praptih: [Bg. 2.13] "The real living being is within this body, and he's changing." We have to accept. There is no experimental... [break] Because they are not sober... A sober man does not hesitate. Accept. Dhiras tatra... Therefore this word has been used. Rascal cannot understand. So indirectly one who does not understand, he's a rascal number one. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: They have the demoniac mentality.
Prabhupada: Just like mother says, "He is your father." Still, he'll not accept. Rascal number one. There is no other way. Huh? He is searching after his father. Mother says, "My dear boy, here is your father." "No, I don't believe. No." He's a rascal number one.
Svarupa Damodara: They're obstinate.
Prabhupada: Obstinate. That scissors philosophy. There is no other way to understand it, but he'll not accept. That is his misfortune. Mudha. Boka. And our problem is that these bokas, rascals, they are leading the society. And they are suffering. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. He's blind. We are also blind. And they're leading us. What will be our consequence? And we are losing the chance of human body to understand what is spirit, what is matter, what is God. We're losing everything. Very precarious condition. These rascals will not allow to understand real thing. That is the position. Otherwise what we have got to do with these rascals? But because they are taking some position, the whole populace is misguided. Means they are losing the chance of this human body. Suicided. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: Amongst the scientists, there are many who are actually against this concept that life is something chemical or physical. But they are somehow afraid of speaking outside...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...even among their colleagues.
Prabhupada: Because these rascals will boycott them.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Once they speak out, then maybe they'll not get grant from the government.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's it.
Svarupa Damodara: So somehow they are hesitant to speak out.
Prabhupada: That is the position. And I have heard that among the scientists' society, if somebody speaks of God he's immediately rejected.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Just like, for example, NASA this, what is it? Aeronautics and Space Institute, they are applying a lot of grants especially to the study of the origin of life from chemicals and all these research schemes. They are spending billions of dollars. But once...
Prabhupada: See. How foolish. Billions of dollars they are spending for a false thing, and they are educating. Durasaya bahir-artha-maninah. (chuckling) It is stated in the SB.. They're proposing something which is not the fact, which will never be possible. still, they'll do.
Svarupa Damodara: In fact, there's one member from here from India, he's in Bombay, that Atomic Research Institute. He's one of the (indistinct) members in this study of the origin of life from chemicals. And if it's possible we would like to give a lecture there in the...
Prabhupada: He is talking nonsense also?
Svarupa Damodara: All of them.
Prabhupada: A nonsense society. "International Society of Nonsense."
Svarupa Damodara: Their theory is that they know this much...
Prabhupada: I think, perhaps, we have detected first that these are rascals.
Gurukrpa: You have detected.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Gurukrpa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Nobody before tried to... (chuckling) So...
Svarupa Damodara: Nobody's saying as boldly as Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So if I would not have students like you, they would have taken me as crazy man. But now I have engaged you to prove them rascals. That is my ambition. [break] ...life from matter.
Svarupa Damodara: Before 1828 in the history of chemistry, there was these scientists. They thought that something, what happens in the body, in the living body, is different than chemistry in the physics. That is called vital theory.
Prabhupada: No, Bhagavad-gita says, nainam chindanti sastrani nainam dahati pavakah [Bg. 2.23]. So what is there within the physical world that is not burned by fire? Where is that thing? But these rascals have no knowledge. It is clearly said indirectly. This is called negative definition: "It is not this." And because he has no brain to understand, so therefore Krsna is explaining in the negative way that "You cannot cut by any weapon; you cannot burn it; it is never dried up." Because any physical thing, it can be cut, it can be dried up, it can be burned, it is just opposite. So many ways He has described, but the rascal will not accept. Find out what is that which is never burned. Anything you take, even big, big iron ore, they're burning. And it is clearly said, "It is not burned." Therefore they are thinking there is no living being in the sun planet. Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam. I told... This is nonbeliever class, rascal class.
Svarupa Damodara: Then in 1828 this German chemist whose name is Frederick Muller, he synthesized, it is called urea. Urea is a chemical that comes out of urine. It's normally in urine from..., called inorganic compounds. So he announced that there's nothing strange about the organic world that happens in the living system. So from that time onwards they thought that life can be studied in terms of chemistry. But it is already 150 years since that theory but nothing happened. Nothing's understood.
Prabhupada: That I have already discussed, that from orange tree you can get that acid, citric acid?
Svarupa Damodara: Citric acid.
Prabhupada: But from citric acid, you cannot get orange tree. That is not possible. A living tree can produce citric acid chemical, but citric acid cannot produce a living... Therefore chemical comes from living being, not the living being comes from the chemical. This is the conclusion.
Svarupa Damodara: Now we are in a better position because this Khorana, he just synthesized this gene last month. So now, with the synthesis of this gene, nothing is happening. Because this is what they thought: once they synthesize this, they will be able to understand life in terms of chemistry. But nothing is understood, though it has been synthesized.
Prabhupada: Failure.
Svarupa Damodara: So it has been completely failed. So now they are thinking about something else, that "Maybe what we thought was all wrong."
Prabhupada: All wrong. Prove that. This is all wrong.
Gurukrpa: They won't speak up or they'll lose their jobs.
Svarupa Damodara: No. So they're coming around. When we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, this is very touchy word which they don't like to hear in the beginning.
Prabhupada: Krsna says, "nonphysical." Nainam chindanti sastrani nainam dahati pavakah, nainam sosayati apah [Bg. 2.23]. Everything, five elements, material... It has nothing to do with these five elements, clearly said in the Bhagavad-gita. It is beyond this. Here whatever you find is ksitir apah tejah marud vyoma: earth, water, air, fire. That's all. But beyond that, it is not physical. And at last, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Everything is there. So I was confident in the statement of Bhagavad-gita. Therefore I strongly stressed, "This is all wrong." I believed completely in the words of Krsna. That's all. I never experimented. But I know what Krsna says is completely right.
Yasodanandana: Yasmad ksaram atito 'ham aksarad atito 'ham.(?) One who knows Krsna knows everything.
Prabhupada: Yes. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If you simply study Krsna, then you'll study everything. Janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvatah [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes competent to enter in the spiritual world and associate with Krsna.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, just like that story with the scissors, how can we force the scientists to accept Krsna and the Bhagavad-gita. How can we force the scientists to accept Bhagavad-gita? The problem seems to be...
Prabhupada: No, if it is a fact, you can force, if it is a fact. And if it is not fact, then it is obstinacy. If it is reality, you can force, just like the father forces the child, "Go to school." Because he knows without education his life will be frustrated, so he can force. I was forced. I was not going to school. Yes. My mother forced. My father was very lenient. My mother forced me. She kept one man especially to drag me to the school. So force is required.
Gurukrpa: But that is the authority. Your parents were your authority.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: But they don't accept us as authority. They say, "I'm equal to you. Actually..."
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness, another foolishness. Father-mother, natural guardian, they can force.
Svarupa Damodara: We have to show that, the higher understanding...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...the higher part of knowledge.
Prabhupada: The child may be foolish but father-mother cannot see that their child will remain a fool. He can force. Government also, why there is military force? Why there is police force? If you want to be outlaw, then you'll be forced to accept the law. Force is required.
Devotee (1): But first the child has to see that there is some benefit from going to school.
Prabhupada: Child cannot see. He's a rascal. He should be beaten with shoes. Then he will see. The child cannot see. Putram ca sisyam ca tadayen na tu lalayet: "Sons and disciples should be always chastised." That is Canakya Pandita. "Never pat them. Lalane bahavo dosas tadane bahavo gunah... "If you pat, then he'll be spoiled. And if you chastise him, he'll come out a very nice person. Therefore, either disciple or son, they should be always chastised." This is the injunction of Canakya Pandita. There is no question of patting them.
Gurukrpa: People want to be flattered. They don't want to be told very strongly.
Prabhupada: And that is the position of disciples. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi' [Cc. Adi 7.71]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was God Himself, and He said that "My Guru Maharaja saw me a fool rascal number one." Chastisement. That is required. Canakya Pandita, a great moral instructor. He has advised, tadayen na tu lalayet: "Always chastise them. Otherwise they'll be spoiled."
Svarupa Damodara: The intelligent boy knows that, that chastisement is mercy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Devotee (2): The scientists are saying that instead of everything coming from the micro organism, instead of that happening now, that it's coming from man. Life is created from man.
Prabhupada: Then life is life. Life coming from life.
Devotee (2): But they're afraid to tell everybody publicly because it is in all the history books and the children will be effected by it. So they say it will be at least ten more years before the truth is out, that actually Krsna is the Supreme in the textbooks in the schools.
Prabhupada: No, if they are afraid of putting the real truth, how they are scientists?
Svarupa Damodara: They are cheaters.
Prabhupada: Cheaters. Here a scientist said that. That is more valuable.
Svarupa Damodara: There's another aspect they call logical positivism...
Prabhupada: So you know all these things. Dedicate your life to turn over all these rascals. You can do that. You are in a position. And present this life is from life to the..., they have Nobel Prize. Yes. You challenge. Will it not be a great challenge?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Even the greatest challenge...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...in science. Everybody's saying the other, and we are saying, very small fraction, almost insignificant.
Prabhupada: Yes, so that is in every science. When you speak the truth there is small section, and then gradually it develops, seed and then big tree, and not immediately big tree.
Svarupa Damodara: Among the professors, see, there is a question, this logical positivism, saying that something, life, is beyond experimental knowledge. Then he said according to logical positivism, whatever we cannot see or whatever we cannot find out by experiment is not science.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is not science. That I am always speaking, that science means not to observe but to make experiment. And that is science, observation and experiment. If you cannot make experiment, it is all logic. Therefore they say, "theory, theory." The Darwin is careful. He says, "theory." He doesn't say, "science," because he knows that he is talking all nonsense. So this is "theory."
Svarupa Damodara: They also say that you cannot prove this atma by experiment.
Prabhupada: Anyway, then it is not science. You cannot prove; then why do you say it can be made by chemical combination.
Satsvarupa: He's saying that they say our position is we can't prove. We can't prove our...
Prabhupada: No, we can prove. Just that... Our argument is that this is beyond our experimental. Therefore you have to hear from the authority. That is our proof. Just like you cannot make an experiment who is your father, but you have to hear from your mother. That is the only way. There is no second alternative.
Satsvarupa: Sabda-pramana.
Prabhupada: Sabda-pramana. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: There is another very strange statement in this regard saying that though we cannot prove something by experiment, but sometimes it is convenient to assume that way.
Prabhupada: No, that is foolishness. How you assume?
Svarupa Damodara: That is logical positivism, saying that... How, there's a house. Let's say there is a temple there, but since I don't see the temple there, but I don't know that the temple is existing or not, but it is convenient to assume that there is a temple.
Prabhupada: No, no. When there is a possibility of getting proof, why shall I assume?
Svarupa Damodara: Because they say they cannot see.
Prabhupada: Now, just the same example: You cannot see. You cannot see your father because the father was before your birth. Only mother can see. How you can refute this argument? Therefore she is the only proof.
Svarupa Damodara: We have a small chapter on this in the book this logical positivism.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Very interesting and very strange.
Prabhupada: It is quite logical that without father, nobody is born. So I do not know who is my father, but the mother is the evidence. That's all. You cannot make this theory that "I was born without father." That is not possible. That is not the laws of nature. But there must be father. You can say, "I have not him." And that is not proof that there is no father. One who has seen, go. Tattva-darsinah. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
Go to mother who has seen your father. That is only proof. Tattva-darsinah. She has seen your father. So you submit, pranipatena, to mother. "Mother, tell me who is my father." And she'll say, "Yes, he is." Tattva... She has seen. Tattva-darsinah. It is not that mother is blindly indicating somebody as father. She has seen, and you have to learn from your mother by submission. That's all. There is no other way.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually we use this theory.
Gurukrpa: So they ask us, "Have you seen God?" They ask us, "So you say you have seen God."
Prabhupada: No, I have not seen. God personally comes, and I see Him. Krsna came. A fortunate person saw him. Just like Arjuna saw. He accepted, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam: [Bg. 10.12] "Oh You are person," sasvatam, "eternally." He has seen. We have to take knowledge from Arjuna. That is called parampara system. He has seen God, and he is giving a statement. You take Arjuna's statement and see God. That is the way. We are not blindly accepting Krsna, but one who has seen Krsna, his statement is there; we accept.
Devotee (1): No one has seen the scientist create life yet, so why should we accept from matter... The scientists are saying life can be made from matter.
Prabhupada: What is this? What does he say?
Svarupa Damodara: He's saying that no one has seen science has created life.
Prabhupada: So why...? Therefore?
Devotee (1): Therefore we should not accept.
Prabhupada: We should not accept.
Devotee (1): An intelligent man will not accept
Prabhupada: Yes. That is another argument, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually we can utilize these theories...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...to disprove their own theories.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: It's very convenient. Like this logical positivism...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is very good argument, that these rascals have never produced life, and why do they say like that? It's good argument because they say that "We have not seen; therefore we don't believe." They're experimental. But you have not experimented. Why you push? Why you brainwash my brain?
Svarupa Damodara: According to this logical positivism, you can say that it is convenient to say that man has arisen from apes, but that is not the truth.
Prabhupada: There is no experiment.
Svarupa Damodara: There's no experiment, but it is convenient to assume according to this logic, but that's not a fact.
Prabhupada: But why the modern ape is not producing any human being?
Svarupa Damodara: They say that's a long time ago...
Prabhupada: Long time.
Svarupa Damodara: Millions of years ago.
Prabhupada: But why man is producing man? Not the ape? Just see how they lunatic they are.
Bhagavata: Why does the process of evolution stop?
Svarupa Damodara: It's convenient to assume that way, but that's not a fact.
Gurukrpa: Convenient means for your sense gratification.
Prabhupada: So we have to discuss so many things, immense field. Go out... [break] At least you have to accept that "I am blind." So how you can show others the path? You are blind.
Jayapataka: By distributing your books, Srila Prabhupada, then the people begin to realize that the scientists are blind. Once they begin to disbelieve and doubt the scientists, then the scientists themselves will also...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: ...be able to come out with the truth.
Prabhupada: When a common man will challenge them that "You are rascal. You are blind. You are showing us road?" Then it will be. I refuse to accept it.
Svarupa Damodara: Also, first of all, we have to show that their theory...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara:...is wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Then give an alternative view and see which one is based on more real knowledge. Then they'll accept. Otherwise they will not.
Prabhupada: So that duty is now entrusted to you, in your hands. Do it very nicely. Krsna will help you. [break]
Jayapataka: ...to disprove them. But we have the true fact, but they cannot... Then let them disprove that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: When the people all understand our philosophy then they'll have to disprove us. Otherwise they won't stand. Why we should disprove their nonsense? They haven't proved it yet.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Well, at the moment they're the majority. So majority carries the vote. That's the slogan. But if they're open-minded, if they are honest... We say, "Be honest, be frank, and be open-minded. Why you confine your small theory?"
Prabhupada: No, they are not open-minded. They have to be pushed within the water. (laughs)
Svarupa Damodara: That's our first remark, "Please let's be open-minded. We are not dogmatic. We're not presenting something religious, fanatic. But let's discuss in open platform, see which one is..."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is our argument. Just like this plant is coming out of the womb of mother. Everything comes from the mother. So there must be father. Anything you see, it is coming from earth. Earth is the mother. Dhenu-dhatri. So where is the father? "I cannot see." You cannot see? That does not mean there is no father. There must be father. And the father says, "Yes!" Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. The answer is there.
Svarupa Damodara: It's a very subtle subject. We try to present this bhakti-yoga among scientists...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...and these physicists and biologists. We are thinking how to do it.
Prabhupada: No, here is argument. Here is... A plant is coming. So yoni... The source of birth is called yoni. So yoni is there, the earth. But who begotten this? There must be father. Because we, our experience, without father and mother there is no generation. You prove that, that here is the mother; there is the child. And where is the father? And the father says, "Yes, I am father." Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. That's all. There must be father. "You do not see." This is not logic. There must be father. So there must be God; otherwise how they are coming? By whose arrangement? Now, the exact fruit and flower will come from this. You bring another tree. Not it will resemble like. Varieties of life. You cannot say it is accident. Huh? Why not accident -- the red flower comes here and the white flower comes there? Accident? They're standing for years. Why there is not a single accident? And accident. You say, "accident."
Svarupa Damodara: This is a nonsense theory.
Prabhupada: Simply rascals. And because we have become rascals, we accept them, "Oh, here is scientist."
Gurukrpa: They find it convenient to accept what these scientists say.
Prabhupada: No, accept, we accept, but we accept the real scientist, Krsna. Therefore we are triumphant. We understand.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, in an audience like that, in, let's say, one hour lecture, we cannot say that "You go to the temple and chant and do all these things."
Prabhupada: No, that is later on. First of all you have to accept that there is original father. That is God. Now, how to realize that God, that is another detail.
Svarupa Damodara: So we made an attempt... I made an attempt to show this, that bhakti-yoga is science, but it is a subtle science. But it has...
Prabhupada: To understand God.
Svarupa Damodara: It needs to...
Prabhupada: It is a science. It is the only science by which you can understand God. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].
Svarupa Damodara: It needs to change our thinking. So we approached like this, that...
Prabhupada: But because they are not accepting the process, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they are bewildered. This is the only process. So if they take to bhakti-yoga, they will see, "Yes, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Oh, everything is Vas... Krsna is the origin." No, they are struggling to know the origin, but because they have not taken the right process, they are bewildered. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. By false ahankara, egotism, they are rejecting, that "There is no God," and they remain in the darkness. Mudha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. Birth after birth they remain in darkness. (pause) Mudha janmani janmani, birth after birth. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: So when we started, saying that "Once we try to understand this fundamental part of knowledge, we should not be too arrogant with nature," that "Let's approach it in a harmonious, in a real humble mind."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: "Then knowledge can be understood in it's proper form."
Prabhupada: And as soon as you become puffed-up, then lost.
Svarupa Damodara: That's what scientists are. They say they'll be able to understand everything by their experimental knowledge. We say, "No, Let's think about it. Let's be honest. There are so many things which are beyond our experimental knowledge."
Prabhupada: Yes. Avan(?) manasa-gocara. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yoja... Which is beyond your knowledge, you don't argue. Accept the authority.
Svarupa Damodara: That is approach. Then we bring bhakti-yoga...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...saying these things.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning, submission. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. That is the beginning of bhakti-yoga. And if you remain just like the scissor man, then you'll never learn.
Svarupa Damodara: And once we bring this bhakti-yoga, we can prove very easily that the Supreme Being, must be a person.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: We have some relations.
Prabhupada: Krsna is speaking as person. [break]
Devotee (1): ...possibility that there is a soul and that there is a God. But when... I showed them a Fifth Canto, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and they were reading about the structure of the universe in the Bhagavatam, and this was completely opposite to all their experiments. So if this is actually a fact, then why can't it be proved experimentally that the Bhagavatam statements on the origin of the universe and so on are correct?
Prabhupada: It is correct. How they can prove it is incorrect?
Devotee (1): Well they say that by mathematics we can prove the position...
Prabhupada: So we have got our mathematics also. [break] ...workers. In the beginning I was alone. Now we have got so many things. So we shall come out triumphant.
Svarupa Damodara: That's Prabhupada's mercy.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Svarupa Damodara: This professor of mine, he was very much against at the beginning of the theory. Then, when I gave this lecture, he invited me for home, in his home, and his wife supported our theory, so he came around, saying that "Yes, science says earth is only 4.5 billion years old, and there are so many defects. So they have to accept that "No, we cannot be correct." So people are coming around slowly.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Kaviraja Gosvami says, sri-krsna-caitanya-daya karaha vicara, vicara karile citte pabe camatkara; [Cc. Adi 8.15] "Just see what kind of merciful is Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and if you consider it perfectly, you'll see it it wonderful." Vicara karile citte pabe camatkara. "Oh, here is Caitanya." Caitanya. Caitanya means living force. He says, vicara, "Just try to understand by logic, by philosophy, by argument." That is vicara. We are not following Caitanya Mahaprabhu blindly. That is not our position. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna argued with Krsna in so many ways. At last, he accepted, "Yes." Param brahma param dhama pavitram: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Person. The rascals, they do not understand Your personality, but Vyasadeva, Narada, Asita, Devala, they have accepted, and I also see. Therefore, whatever you say, I agree. That's all" This is experiment. Arjuna did not accept Krsna blindly. He knew, but for our sake he gave so many arguments. At last, he accepted. We have to follow Arjuna. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare. [break]
Gurukrpa: Great.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: He was great by admitting that he was also a thief, but a big one.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes.
Gurukrpa: So if the scientists admit that actually the are not right, that makes them great.
Prabhupada: Yes, actually. He must be standing on truth. That is greatness. Because "to err is human." Anyone commits mistake. There is no doubt about it. But after committing mistake, if I stick to that mistake, that is foolishness. When it is detected that it is mistake, you must admit. That is greatness.
Svarupa Damodara: We are bringing this law of nature which is a higher order law. [break]
Prabhupada: ...thousandth part of the top tip of the hair. That is also given. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. In the Upanisads there is. The dimension of the atma is given. That small particle, atomic, is so powerful. And what about the Supreme?
Svarupa Damodara: They ask, "What is the force that combined matter and the atma, matter and life, matter and the jiva or atma? What is the force behind it?"
Prabhupada: Force because atma is independent. He can live in the spiritual world or in the material world as he likes.
Svarupa Damodara: But is not correct, Srila Prabhupada, that Paramatma is the...
Prabhupada: Paramatma is...
Svarupa Damodara: ...is behind.
Prabhupada: Yes, behind, yes. He's the origin of atma. Mamaivamsa. Krsna said, "This atma is my small particle part." He says that. So Paramatma is the origin, and these are fragmental parts of Paramatma.
Svarupa Damodara: That makes our statement very valid.
Prabhupada: Yes. Atma... Super-atma is the source of atma.
Svarupa Damodara: They can explain everything, all..., but cannot explain by science.
Prabhupada: That is the Bhagavad-gita, Seventh Chapter, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh bhinna me prakrtir astadha: [Bg. 7.4] "They are also My energy, and beyond this, there is superior energy." Jiva-bhutam maha-baho [Bg. 7.5]. Both of them, energies, the material elements and the spiritual element, both of them are different energy of the supreme atma. So one is superior; another is inferior. Because we are superior, we are controlling the inferior energy, and by such control, from inferior energy matter, we have created this motor car. Therefore I am superior.
Svarupa Damodara: In the West, Srila Prabhupada, in Western philosophy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: This subject matter is called "mind-body problem." The mind sometimes they compare as spirit or soul in some Western philosophical circles.
Prabhupada: Because they are not yet advanced. Beyond the mind there is intelligence, and beyond the intelligence there is the soul.
indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu sah
[Bg. 3.42]
They have come up to the mind, but above the mind there is intelligence, and above intelligence there is soul. So we can understand this very easily because we accept Bhagavad-gita. It is easy for us. And for others, they are going step by step. It is very difficult. But we can understand immediately.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. It's true that that theory that everything is material or everything beyond matter is false... (end)
Svarupa Damodara: Somehow they have developed this false understanding that everything can be reduced to atoms and molecules.
Prabhupada: That is still less intelligence, still less intelligence. Kartaham iti manyate.
Svarupa Damodara: Because life is something which is beyond experimental knowledge...
Prabhupada: That means they do not know. Say that, "beyond experimental knowledge" or "beyond your capacity."
Svarupa Damodara: Still, they are hesitant to say that.
Prabhupada: That is their poor fund of knowledge. A gentleman will accept, "Yes, we do not know." But they, in round about way, in order to keep their position, they'll bluff. That is most dangerous, bluffing.
Svarupa Damodara: That's the difficulty.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the... If one wants to be cheated and wants to cheat others, you cannot... Sarpah krurah khalah krurah. There are crooked living entities; one who is snake, and one is man. So you can control the snake, but you cannot control this rascal crooked man. That is very difficult. Khalah kena nivaryate. He'll remain crooked, however you say. I told you that story? Scissor? Scissor? Yes. Because he's human being, he'll persist, and the other one, the animal, you can bring her, bring that animal under control. But because he is human being, you cannot bring him under control. He will persist.
Gurukrpa: What was that story of Caesar?
Prabhupada: Huh? Tell him.
Satsvarupa: Scissors. Two men were arguing...
Gurukrpa: Oh, the scissors.
Prabhupada: Scissor logic.
Devotee: What is that?
Satsvarupa: One man said a knife was used...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: ...and the other said, "No, it was a scissor that was used." And they began arguing back and forth, and finally one man who held that it was a knife, he threw the other man in the river...
Prabhupada: That "You accept that it is done by scissor." So he said, "No, I won't tolerate." Then he pushed him in the water. Then he was doing like this. (laughter) Scissor logic.
Bhagavata: Argumentum vaculam.
Prabhupada: That was used. He was put in the water. "Either you accept or I shall push you in the water." "No, I'll not accept." (laughter) So these rascals are like that. They are failure. They cannot. Still, they'll do, (laughter) the so-called scientists.
Svarupa Damodara: They have an international society for doing that.
Prabhupada: Yes. They must combine. Otherwise there is no place for them. As soon as they accept that there is something beyond physical, then they'll have to accept God.
Svarupa Damodara: Just like when we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, then they're very amused.
Prabhupada: That is...
Svarupa Damodara: "What is it? If it is nonphysical nonchemical, then what it is?" They inquire.
Prabhupada: Spiritual.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, but...
Prabhupada: That means they have to accept two things -- material and spiritual. [break] ...little difficult. Therefore we have to understand from the authority. The same argument, that you have to understand who is your father from the mother. There is no other... [break] ...Krsna says in the beginning, tatha dehantara-praptih: [Bg. 2.13] "The real living being is within this body, and he's changing." We have to accept. There is no experimental... [break] Because they are not sober... A sober man does not hesitate. Accept. Dhiras tatra... Therefore this word has been used. Rascal cannot understand. So indirectly one who does not understand, he's a rascal number one. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: They have the demoniac mentality.
Prabhupada: Just like mother says, "He is your father." Still, he'll not accept. Rascal number one. There is no other way. Huh? He is searching after his father. Mother says, "My dear boy, here is your father." "No, I don't believe. No." He's a rascal number one.
Svarupa Damodara: They're obstinate.
Prabhupada: Obstinate. That scissors philosophy. There is no other way to understand it, but he'll not accept. That is his misfortune. Mudha. Boka. And our problem is that these bokas, rascals, they are leading the society. And they are suffering. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. He's blind. We are also blind. And they're leading us. What will be our consequence? And we are losing the chance of human body to understand what is spirit, what is matter, what is God. We're losing everything. Very precarious condition. These rascals will not allow to understand real thing. That is the position. Otherwise what we have got to do with these rascals? But because they are taking some position, the whole populace is misguided. Means they are losing the chance of this human body. Suicided. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: Amongst the scientists, there are many who are actually against this concept that life is something chemical or physical. But they are somehow afraid of speaking outside...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...even among their colleagues.
Prabhupada: Because these rascals will boycott them.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Once they speak out, then maybe they'll not get grant from the government.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's it.
Svarupa Damodara: So somehow they are hesitant to speak out.
Prabhupada: That is the position. And I have heard that among the scientists' society, if somebody speaks of God he's immediately rejected.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Just like, for example, NASA this, what is it? Aeronautics and Space Institute, they are applying a lot of grants especially to the study of the origin of life from chemicals and all these research schemes. They are spending billions of dollars. But once...
Prabhupada: See. How foolish. Billions of dollars they are spending for a false thing, and they are educating. Durasaya bahir-artha-maninah. (chuckling) It is stated in the SB.. They're proposing something which is not the fact, which will never be possible. still, they'll do.
Svarupa Damodara: In fact, there's one member from here from India, he's in Bombay, that Atomic Research Institute. He's one of the (indistinct) members in this study of the origin of life from chemicals. And if it's possible we would like to give a lecture there in the...
Prabhupada: He is talking nonsense also?
Svarupa Damodara: All of them.
Prabhupada: A nonsense society. "International Society of Nonsense."
Svarupa Damodara: Their theory is that they know this much...
Prabhupada: I think, perhaps, we have detected first that these are rascals.
Gurukrpa: You have detected.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Gurukrpa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Nobody before tried to... (chuckling) So...
Svarupa Damodara: Nobody's saying as boldly as Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So if I would not have students like you, they would have taken me as crazy man. But now I have engaged you to prove them rascals. That is my ambition. [break] ...life from matter.
Svarupa Damodara: Before 1828 in the history of chemistry, there was these scientists. They thought that something, what happens in the body, in the living body, is different than chemistry in the physics. That is called vital theory.
Prabhupada: No, Bhagavad-gita says, nainam chindanti sastrani nainam dahati pavakah [Bg. 2.23]. So what is there within the physical world that is not burned by fire? Where is that thing? But these rascals have no knowledge. It is clearly said indirectly. This is called negative definition: "It is not this." And because he has no brain to understand, so therefore Krsna is explaining in the negative way that "You cannot cut by any weapon; you cannot burn it; it is never dried up." Because any physical thing, it can be cut, it can be dried up, it can be burned, it is just opposite. So many ways He has described, but the rascal will not accept. Find out what is that which is never burned. Anything you take, even big, big iron ore, they're burning. And it is clearly said, "It is not burned." Therefore they are thinking there is no living being in the sun planet. Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam. I told... This is nonbeliever class, rascal class.
Svarupa Damodara: Then in 1828 this German chemist whose name is Frederick Muller, he synthesized, it is called urea. Urea is a chemical that comes out of urine. It's normally in urine from..., called inorganic compounds. So he announced that there's nothing strange about the organic world that happens in the living system. So from that time onwards they thought that life can be studied in terms of chemistry. But it is already 150 years since that theory but nothing happened. Nothing's understood.
Prabhupada: That I have already discussed, that from orange tree you can get that acid, citric acid?
Svarupa Damodara: Citric acid.
Prabhupada: But from citric acid, you cannot get orange tree. That is not possible. A living tree can produce citric acid chemical, but citric acid cannot produce a living... Therefore chemical comes from living being, not the living being comes from the chemical. This is the conclusion.
Svarupa Damodara: Now we are in a better position because this Khorana, he just synthesized this gene last month. So now, with the synthesis of this gene, nothing is happening. Because this is what they thought: once they synthesize this, they will be able to understand life in terms of chemistry. But nothing is understood, though it has been synthesized.
Prabhupada: Failure.
Svarupa Damodara: So it has been completely failed. So now they are thinking about something else, that "Maybe what we thought was all wrong."
Prabhupada: All wrong. Prove that. This is all wrong.
Gurukrpa: They won't speak up or they'll lose their jobs.
Svarupa Damodara: No. So they're coming around. When we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, this is very touchy word which they don't like to hear in the beginning.
Prabhupada: Krsna says, "nonphysical." Nainam chindanti sastrani nainam dahati pavakah, nainam sosayati apah [Bg. 2.23]. Everything, five elements, material... It has nothing to do with these five elements, clearly said in the Bhagavad-gita. It is beyond this. Here whatever you find is ksitir apah tejah marud vyoma: earth, water, air, fire. That's all. But beyond that, it is not physical. And at last, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Everything is there. So I was confident in the statement of Bhagavad-gita. Therefore I strongly stressed, "This is all wrong." I believed completely in the words of Krsna. That's all. I never experimented. But I know what Krsna says is completely right.
Yasodanandana: Yasmad ksaram atito 'ham aksarad atito 'ham.(?) One who knows Krsna knows everything.
Prabhupada: Yes. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If you simply study Krsna, then you'll study everything. Janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvatah [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes competent to enter in the spiritual world and associate with Krsna.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, just like that story with the scissors, how can we force the scientists to accept Krsna and the Bhagavad-gita. How can we force the scientists to accept Bhagavad-gita? The problem seems to be...
Prabhupada: No, if it is a fact, you can force, if it is a fact. And if it is not fact, then it is obstinacy. If it is reality, you can force, just like the father forces the child, "Go to school." Because he knows without education his life will be frustrated, so he can force. I was forced. I was not going to school. Yes. My mother forced. My father was very lenient. My mother forced me. She kept one man especially to drag me to the school. So force is required.
Gurukrpa: But that is the authority. Your parents were your authority.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: But they don't accept us as authority. They say, "I'm equal to you. Actually..."
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness, another foolishness. Father-mother, natural guardian, they can force.
Svarupa Damodara: We have to show that, the higher understanding...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...the higher part of knowledge.
Prabhupada: The child may be foolish but father-mother cannot see that their child will remain a fool. He can force. Government also, why there is military force? Why there is police force? If you want to be outlaw, then you'll be forced to accept the law. Force is required.
Devotee (1): But first the child has to see that there is some benefit from going to school.
Prabhupada: Child cannot see. He's a rascal. He should be beaten with shoes. Then he will see. The child cannot see. Putram ca sisyam ca tadayen na tu lalayet: "Sons and disciples should be always chastised." That is Canakya Pandita. "Never pat them. Lalane bahavo dosas tadane bahavo gunah... "If you pat, then he'll be spoiled. And if you chastise him, he'll come out a very nice person. Therefore, either disciple or son, they should be always chastised." This is the injunction of Canakya Pandita. There is no question of patting them.
Gurukrpa: People want to be flattered. They don't want to be told very strongly.
Prabhupada: And that is the position of disciples. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi' [Cc. Adi 7.71]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was God Himself, and He said that "My Guru Maharaja saw me a fool rascal number one." Chastisement. That is required. Canakya Pandita, a great moral instructor. He has advised, tadayen na tu lalayet: "Always chastise them. Otherwise they'll be spoiled."
Svarupa Damodara: The intelligent boy knows that, that chastisement is mercy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Devotee (2): The scientists are saying that instead of everything coming from the micro organism, instead of that happening now, that it's coming from man. Life is created from man.
Prabhupada: Then life is life. Life coming from life.
Devotee (2): But they're afraid to tell everybody publicly because it is in all the history books and the children will be effected by it. So they say it will be at least ten more years before the truth is out, that actually Krsna is the Supreme in the textbooks in the schools.
Prabhupada: No, if they are afraid of putting the real truth, how they are scientists?
Svarupa Damodara: They are cheaters.
Prabhupada: Cheaters. Here a scientist said that. That is more valuable.
Svarupa Damodara: There's another aspect they call logical positivism...
Prabhupada: So you know all these things. Dedicate your life to turn over all these rascals. You can do that. You are in a position. And present this life is from life to the..., they have Nobel Prize. Yes. You challenge. Will it not be a great challenge?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Even the greatest challenge...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...in science. Everybody's saying the other, and we are saying, very small fraction, almost insignificant.
Prabhupada: Yes, so that is in every science. When you speak the truth there is small section, and then gradually it develops, seed and then big tree, and not immediately big tree.
Svarupa Damodara: Among the professors, see, there is a question, this logical positivism, saying that something, life, is beyond experimental knowledge. Then he said according to logical positivism, whatever we cannot see or whatever we cannot find out by experiment is not science.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is not science. That I am always speaking, that science means not to observe but to make experiment. And that is science, observation and experiment. If you cannot make experiment, it is all logic. Therefore they say, "theory, theory." The Darwin is careful. He says, "theory." He doesn't say, "science," because he knows that he is talking all nonsense. So this is "theory."
Svarupa Damodara: They also say that you cannot prove this atma by experiment.
Prabhupada: Anyway, then it is not science. You cannot prove; then why do you say it can be made by chemical combination.
Satsvarupa: He's saying that they say our position is we can't prove. We can't prove our...
Prabhupada: No, we can prove. Just that... Our argument is that this is beyond our experimental. Therefore you have to hear from the authority. That is our proof. Just like you cannot make an experiment who is your father, but you have to hear from your mother. That is the only way. There is no second alternative.
Satsvarupa: Sabda-pramana.
Prabhupada: Sabda-pramana. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: There is another very strange statement in this regard saying that though we cannot prove something by experiment, but sometimes it is convenient to assume that way.
Prabhupada: No, that is foolishness. How you assume?
Svarupa Damodara: That is logical positivism, saying that... How, there's a house. Let's say there is a temple there, but since I don't see the temple there, but I don't know that the temple is existing or not, but it is convenient to assume that there is a temple.
Prabhupada: No, no. When there is a possibility of getting proof, why shall I assume?
Svarupa Damodara: Because they say they cannot see.
Prabhupada: Now, just the same example: You cannot see. You cannot see your father because the father was before your birth. Only mother can see. How you can refute this argument? Therefore she is the only proof.
Svarupa Damodara: We have a small chapter on this in the book this logical positivism.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Very interesting and very strange.
Prabhupada: It is quite logical that without father, nobody is born. So I do not know who is my father, but the mother is the evidence. That's all. You cannot make this theory that "I was born without father." That is not possible. That is not the laws of nature. But there must be father. You can say, "I have not him." And that is not proof that there is no father. One who has seen, go. Tattva-darsinah. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
Go to mother who has seen your father. That is only proof. Tattva-darsinah. She has seen your father. So you submit, pranipatena, to mother. "Mother, tell me who is my father." And she'll say, "Yes, he is." Tattva... She has seen. Tattva-darsinah. It is not that mother is blindly indicating somebody as father. She has seen, and you have to learn from your mother by submission. That's all. There is no other way.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually we use this theory.
Gurukrpa: So they ask us, "Have you seen God?" They ask us, "So you say you have seen God."
Prabhupada: No, I have not seen. God personally comes, and I see Him. Krsna came. A fortunate person saw him. Just like Arjuna saw. He accepted, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam: [Bg. 10.12] "Oh You are person," sasvatam, "eternally." He has seen. We have to take knowledge from Arjuna. That is called parampara system. He has seen God, and he is giving a statement. You take Arjuna's statement and see God. That is the way. We are not blindly accepting Krsna, but one who has seen Krsna, his statement is there; we accept.
Devotee (1): No one has seen the scientist create life yet, so why should we accept from matter... The scientists are saying life can be made from matter.
Prabhupada: What is this? What does he say?
Svarupa Damodara: He's saying that no one has seen science has created life.
Prabhupada: So why...? Therefore?
Devotee (1): Therefore we should not accept.
Prabhupada: We should not accept.
Devotee (1): An intelligent man will not accept
Prabhupada: Yes. That is another argument, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually we can utilize these theories...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...to disprove their own theories.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: It's very convenient. Like this logical positivism...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is very good argument, that these rascals have never produced life, and why do they say like that? It's good argument because they say that "We have not seen; therefore we don't believe." They're experimental. But you have not experimented. Why you push? Why you brainwash my brain?
Svarupa Damodara: According to this logical positivism, you can say that it is convenient to say that man has arisen from apes, but that is not the truth.
Prabhupada: There is no experiment.
Svarupa Damodara: There's no experiment, but it is convenient to assume according to this logic, but that's not a fact.
Prabhupada: But why the modern ape is not producing any human being?
Svarupa Damodara: They say that's a long time ago...
Prabhupada: Long time.
Svarupa Damodara: Millions of years ago.
Prabhupada: But why man is producing man? Not the ape? Just see how they lunatic they are.
Bhagavata: Why does the process of evolution stop?
Svarupa Damodara: It's convenient to assume that way, but that's not a fact.
Gurukrpa: Convenient means for your sense gratification.
Prabhupada: So we have to discuss so many things, immense field. Go out... [break] At least you have to accept that "I am blind." So how you can show others the path? You are blind.
Jayapataka: By distributing your books, Srila Prabhupada, then the people begin to realize that the scientists are blind. Once they begin to disbelieve and doubt the scientists, then the scientists themselves will also...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: ...be able to come out with the truth.
Prabhupada: When a common man will challenge them that "You are rascal. You are blind. You are showing us road?" Then it will be. I refuse to accept it.
Svarupa Damodara: Also, first of all, we have to show that their theory...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara:...is wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Then give an alternative view and see which one is based on more real knowledge. Then they'll accept. Otherwise they will not.
Prabhupada: So that duty is now entrusted to you, in your hands. Do it very nicely. Krsna will help you. [break]
Jayapataka: ...to disprove them. But we have the true fact, but they cannot... Then let them disprove that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: When the people all understand our philosophy then they'll have to disprove us. Otherwise they won't stand. Why we should disprove their nonsense? They haven't proved it yet.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Well, at the moment they're the majority. So majority carries the vote. That's the slogan. But if they're open-minded, if they are honest... We say, "Be honest, be frank, and be open-minded. Why you confine your small theory?"
Prabhupada: No, they are not open-minded. They have to be pushed within the water. (laughs)
Svarupa Damodara: That's our first remark, "Please let's be open-minded. We are not dogmatic. We're not presenting something religious, fanatic. But let's discuss in open platform, see which one is..."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is our argument. Just like this plant is coming out of the womb of mother. Everything comes from the mother. So there must be father. Anything you see, it is coming from earth. Earth is the mother. Dhenu-dhatri. So where is the father? "I cannot see." You cannot see? That does not mean there is no father. There must be father. And the father says, "Yes!" Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. The answer is there.
Svarupa Damodara: It's a very subtle subject. We try to present this bhakti-yoga among scientists...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...and these physicists and biologists. We are thinking how to do it.
Prabhupada: No, here is argument. Here is... A plant is coming. So yoni... The source of birth is called yoni. So yoni is there, the earth. But who begotten this? There must be father. Because we, our experience, without father and mother there is no generation. You prove that, that here is the mother; there is the child. And where is the father? And the father says, "Yes, I am father." Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. That's all. There must be father. "You do not see." This is not logic. There must be father. So there must be God; otherwise how they are coming? By whose arrangement? Now, the exact fruit and flower will come from this. You bring another tree. Not it will resemble like. Varieties of life. You cannot say it is accident. Huh? Why not accident -- the red flower comes here and the white flower comes there? Accident? They're standing for years. Why there is not a single accident? And accident. You say, "accident."
Svarupa Damodara: This is a nonsense theory.
Prabhupada: Simply rascals. And because we have become rascals, we accept them, "Oh, here is scientist."
Gurukrpa: They find it convenient to accept what these scientists say.
Prabhupada: No, accept, we accept, but we accept the real scientist, Krsna. Therefore we are triumphant. We understand.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, in an audience like that, in, let's say, one hour lecture, we cannot say that "You go to the temple and chant and do all these things."
Prabhupada: No, that is later on. First of all you have to accept that there is original father. That is God. Now, how to realize that God, that is another detail.
Svarupa Damodara: So we made an attempt... I made an attempt to show this, that bhakti-yoga is science, but it is a subtle science. But it has...
Prabhupada: To understand God.
Svarupa Damodara: It needs to...
Prabhupada: It is a science. It is the only science by which you can understand God. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].
Svarupa Damodara: It needs to change our thinking. So we approached like this, that...
Prabhupada: But because they are not accepting the process, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they are bewildered. This is the only process. So if they take to bhakti-yoga, they will see, "Yes, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Oh, everything is Vas... Krsna is the origin." No, they are struggling to know the origin, but because they have not taken the right process, they are bewildered. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. By false ahankara, egotism, they are rejecting, that "There is no God," and they remain in the darkness. Mudha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. Birth after birth they remain in darkness. (pause) Mudha janmani janmani, birth after birth. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: So when we started, saying that "Once we try to understand this fundamental part of knowledge, we should not be too arrogant with nature," that "Let's approach it in a harmonious, in a real humble mind."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: "Then knowledge can be understood in it's proper form."
Prabhupada: And as soon as you become puffed-up, then lost.
Svarupa Damodara: That's what scientists are. They say they'll be able to understand everything by their experimental knowledge. We say, "No, Let's think about it. Let's be honest. There are so many things which are beyond our experimental knowledge."
Prabhupada: Yes. Avan(?) manasa-gocara. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yoja... Which is beyond your knowledge, you don't argue. Accept the authority.
Svarupa Damodara: That is approach. Then we bring bhakti-yoga...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...saying these things.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning, submission. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. That is the beginning of bhakti-yoga. And if you remain just like the scissor man, then you'll never learn.
Svarupa Damodara: And once we bring this bhakti-yoga, we can prove very easily that the Supreme Being, must be a person.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: We have some relations.
Prabhupada: Krsna is speaking as person. [break]
Devotee (1): ...possibility that there is a soul and that there is a God. But when... I showed them a Fifth Canto, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and they were reading about the structure of the universe in the Bhagavatam, and this was completely opposite to all their experiments. So if this is actually a fact, then why can't it be proved experimentally that the Bhagavatam statements on the origin of the universe and so on are correct?
Prabhupada: It is correct. How they can prove it is incorrect?
Devotee (1): Well they say that by mathematics we can prove the position...
Prabhupada: So we have got our mathematics also. [break] ...workers. In the beginning I was alone. Now we have got so many things. So we shall come out triumphant.
Svarupa Damodara: That's Prabhupada's mercy.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Svarupa Damodara: This professor of mine, he was very much against at the beginning of the theory. Then, when I gave this lecture, he invited me for home, in his home, and his wife supported our theory, so he came around, saying that "Yes, science says earth is only 4.5 billion years old, and there are so many defects. So they have to accept that "No, we cannot be correct." So people are coming around slowly.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Kaviraja Gosvami says, sri-krsna-caitanya-daya karaha vicara, vicara karile citte pabe camatkara; [Cc. Adi 8.15] "Just see what kind of merciful is Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and if you consider it perfectly, you'll see it it wonderful." Vicara karile citte pabe camatkara. "Oh, here is Caitanya." Caitanya. Caitanya means living force. He says, vicara, "Just try to understand by logic, by philosophy, by argument." That is vicara. We are not following Caitanya Mahaprabhu blindly. That is not our position. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna argued with Krsna in so many ways. At last, he accepted, "Yes." Param brahma param dhama pavitram: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Person. The rascals, they do not understand Your personality, but Vyasadeva, Narada, Asita, Devala, they have accepted, and I also see. Therefore, whatever you say, I agree. That's all" This is experiment. Arjuna did not accept Krsna blindly. He knew, but for our sake he gave so many arguments. At last, he accepted. We have to follow Arjuna. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare. [break]
Gurukrpa: Great.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: He was great by admitting that he was also a thief, but a big one.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes.
Gurukrpa: So if the scientists admit that actually the are not right, that makes them great.
Prabhupada: Yes, actually. He must be standing on truth. That is greatness. Because "to err is human." Anyone commits mistake. There is no doubt about it. But after committing mistake, if I stick to that mistake, that is foolishness. When it is detected that it is mistake, you must admit. That is greatness.
Svarupa Damodara: We are bringing this law of nature which is a higher order law. [break]
Prabhupada: ...thousandth part of the top tip of the hair. That is also given. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. In the Upanisads there is. The dimension of the atma is given. That small particle, atomic, is so powerful. And what about the Supreme?
Svarupa Damodara: They ask, "What is the force that combined matter and the atma, matter and life, matter and the jiva or atma? What is the force behind it?"
Prabhupada: Force because atma is independent. He can live in the spiritual world or in the material world as he likes.
Svarupa Damodara: But is not correct, Srila Prabhupada, that Paramatma is the...
Prabhupada: Paramatma is...
Svarupa Damodara: ...is behind.
Prabhupada: Yes, behind, yes. He's the origin of atma. Mamaivamsa. Krsna said, "This atma is my small particle part." He says that. So Paramatma is the origin, and these are fragmental parts of Paramatma.
Svarupa Damodara: That makes our statement very valid.
Prabhupada: Yes. Atma... Super-atma is the source of atma.
Svarupa Damodara: They can explain everything, all..., but cannot explain by science.
Prabhupada: That is the Bhagavad-gita, Seventh Chapter, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh bhinna me prakrtir astadha: [Bg. 7.4] "They are also My energy, and beyond this, there is superior energy." Jiva-bhutam maha-baho [Bg. 7.5]. Both of them, energies, the material elements and the spiritual element, both of them are different energy of the supreme atma. So one is superior; another is inferior. Because we are superior, we are controlling the inferior energy, and by such control, from inferior energy matter, we have created this motor car. Therefore I am superior.
Svarupa Damodara: In the West, Srila Prabhupada, in Western philosophy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: This subject matter is called "mind-body problem." The mind sometimes they compare as spirit or soul in some Western philosophical circles.
Prabhupada: Because they are not yet advanced. Beyond the mind there is intelligence, and beyond the intelligence there is the soul.
indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu sah
[Bg. 3.42]
They have come up to the mind, but above the mind there is intelligence, and above intelligence there is soul. So we can understand this very easily because we accept Bhagavad-gita. It is easy for us. And for others, they are going step by step. It is very difficult. But we can understand immediately.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. It's true that that theory that everything is material or everything beyond matter is false... (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- February 1, 1977, Bhuvanesvara
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
