Atheists--Blind Bluffers

Bhubanesvara, February 1, 1977

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Svarupa Damodara: We need to show the alternative.Prabhupada: No, a child can see there are two things, that what is the difference between a living man and dead man. So my father was living one moment before. Now he is dead. The something is missing. The two things are there. Where is the difficulty? And these big, big scientists, they cannot understand. How less intelligent they are. Immediately understood two things, but something is missing.
Svarupa Damodara: Somehow they have developed this false understanding that everything can be reduced to atoms and molecules.
Prabhupada: That is still less intelligence, still less intelligence. Kartaham iti manyate.
Svarupa Damodara: Because life is something which is beyond experimental knowledge...
Prabhupada: That means they do not know. Say that, "beyond experimental knowledge" or "beyond your capacity."
Svarupa Damodara: Still, they are hesitant to say that.
Prabhupada: That is their poor fund of knowledge. A gentleman will accept, "Yes, we do not know." But they, in round about way, in order to keep their position, they'll bluff. That is most dangerous, bluffing.
Svarupa Damodara: That's the difficulty.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the... If one wants to be cheated and wants to cheat others, you cannot... Sarpah krurah khalah krurah. There are crooked living entities; one who is snake, and one is man. So you can control the snake, but you cannot control this rascal crooked man. That is very difficult. Khalah kena nivaryate. He'll remain crooked, however you say. I told you that story? Scissor? Scissor? Yes. Because he's human being, he'll persist, and the other one, the animal, you can bring her, bring that animal under control. But because he is human being, you cannot bring him under control. He will persist.
Gurukrpa: What was that story of Caesar?
Prabhupada: Huh? Tell him.
Satsvarupa: Scissors. Two men were arguing...
Gurukrpa: Oh, the scissors.
Prabhupada: Scissor logic.
Devotee: What is that?
Satsvarupa: One man said a knife was used...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: ...and the other said, "No, it was a scissor that was used." And they began arguing back and forth, and finally one man who held that it was a knife, he threw the other man in the river...
Prabhupada: That "You accept that it is done by scissor." So he said, "No, I won't tolerate." Then he pushed him in the water. Then he was doing like this. (laughter) Scissor logic.
Bhagavata: Argumentum vaculam.
Prabhupada: That was used. He was put in the water. "Either you accept or I shall push you in the water." "No, I'll not accept." (laughter) So these rascals are like that. They are failure. They cannot. Still, they'll do, (laughter) the so-called scientists.
Svarupa Damodara: They have an international society for doing that.
Prabhupada: Yes. They must combine. Otherwise there is no place for them. As soon as they accept that there is something beyond physical, then they'll have to accept God.
Svarupa Damodara: Just like when we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, then they're very amused.
Prabhupada: That is...
Svarupa Damodara: "What is it? If it is nonphysical nonchemical, then what it is?" They inquire.
Prabhupada: Spiritual.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, but...
Prabhupada: That means they have to accept two things -- material and spiritual. [break] ...little difficult. Therefore we have to understand from the authority. The same argument, that you have to understand who is your father from the mother. There is no other... [break] ...Krsna says in the beginning, tatha dehantara-praptih: [Bg. 2.13] "The real living being is within this body, and he's changing." We have to accept. There is no experimental... [break] Because they are not sober... A sober man does not hesitate. Accept. Dhiras tatra... Therefore this word has been used. Rascal cannot understand. So indirectly one who does not understand, he's a rascal number one. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: They have the demoniac mentality.
Prabhupada: Just like mother says, "He is your father." Still, he'll not accept. Rascal number one. There is no other way. Huh? He is searching after his father. Mother says, "My dear boy, here is your father." "No, I don't believe. No." He's a rascal number one.
Svarupa Damodara: They're obstinate.
Prabhupada: Obstinate. That scissors philosophy. There is no other way to understand it, but he'll not accept. That is his misfortune. Mudha. Boka. And our problem is that these bokas, rascals, they are leading the society. And they are suffering. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. He's blind. We are also blind. And they're leading us. What will be our consequence? And we are losing the chance of human body to understand what is spirit, what is matter, what is God. We're losing everything. Very precarious condition. These rascals will not allow to understand real thing. That is the position. Otherwise what we have got to do with these rascals? But because they are taking some position, the whole populace is misguided. Means they are losing the chance of this human body. Suicided. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: Amongst the scientists, there are many who are actually against this concept that life is something chemical or physical. But they are somehow afraid of speaking outside...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...even among their colleagues.
Prabhupada: Because these rascals will boycott them.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Once they speak out, then maybe they'll not get grant from the government.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's it.
Svarupa Damodara: So somehow they are hesitant to speak out.
Prabhupada: That is the position. And I have heard that among the scientists' society, if somebody speaks of God he's immediately rejected.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Just like, for example, NASA this, what is it? Aeronautics and Space Institute, they are applying a lot of grants especially to the study of the origin of life from chemicals and all these research schemes. They are spending billions of dollars. But once...
Prabhupada: See. How foolish. Billions of dollars they are spending for a false thing, and they are educating. Durasaya bahir-artha-maninah. (chuckling) It is stated in the SB.. They're proposing something which is not the fact, which will never be possible. still, they'll do.
Svarupa Damodara: In fact, there's one member from here from India, he's in Bombay, that Atomic Research Institute. He's one of the (indistinct) members in this study of the origin of life from chemicals. And if it's possible we would like to give a lecture there in the...
Prabhupada: He is talking nonsense also?
Svarupa Damodara: All of them.
Prabhupada: A nonsense society. "International Society of Nonsense."
Svarupa Damodara: Their theory is that they know this much...
Prabhupada: I think, perhaps, we have detected first that these are rascals.
Gurukrpa: You have detected.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Gurukrpa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Nobody before tried to... (chuckling) So...
Svarupa Damodara: Nobody's saying as boldly as Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So if I would not have students like you, they would have taken me as crazy man. But now I have engaged you to prove them rascals. That is my ambition. [break] ...life from matter.
Svarupa Damodara: Before 1828 in the history of chemistry, there was these scientists. They thought that something, what happens in the body, in the living body, is different than chemistry in the physics. That is called vital theory.
Prabhupada: No, Bhagavad-gita says, nainam chindanti sastrani nainam dahati pavakah [Bg. 2.23]. So what is there within the physical world that is not burned by fire? Where is that thing? But these rascals have no knowledge. It is clearly said indirectly. This is called negative definition: "It is not this." And because he has no brain to understand, so therefore Krsna is explaining in the negative way that "You cannot cut by any weapon; you cannot burn it; it is never dried up." Because any physical thing, it can be cut, it can be dried up, it can be burned, it is just opposite. So many ways He has described, but the rascal will not accept. Find out what is that which is never burned. Anything you take, even big, big iron ore, they're burning. And it is clearly said, "It is not burned." Therefore they are thinking there is no living being in the sun planet. Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam. I told... This is nonbeliever class, rascal class.
Svarupa Damodara: Then in 1828 this German chemist whose name is Frederick Muller, he synthesized, it is called urea. Urea is a chemical that comes out of urine. It's normally in urine from..., called inorganic compounds. So he announced that there's nothing strange about the organic world that happens in the living system. So from that time onwards they thought that life can be studied in terms of chemistry. But it is already 150 years since that theory but nothing happened. Nothing's understood.
Prabhupada: That I have already discussed, that from orange tree you can get that acid, citric acid?
Svarupa Damodara: Citric acid.
Prabhupada: But from citric acid, you cannot get orange tree. That is not possible. A living tree can produce citric acid chemical, but citric acid cannot produce a living... Therefore chemical comes from living being, not the living being comes from the chemical. This is the conclusion.
Svarupa Damodara: Now we are in a better position because this Khorana, he just synthesized this gene last month. So now, with the synthesis of this gene, nothing is happening. Because this is what they thought: once they synthesize this, they will be able to understand life in terms of chemistry. But nothing is understood, though it has been synthesized.
Prabhupada: Failure.
Svarupa Damodara: So it has been completely failed. So now they are thinking about something else, that "Maybe what we thought was all wrong."
Prabhupada: All wrong. Prove that. This is all wrong.
Gurukrpa: They won't speak up or they'll lose their jobs.
Svarupa Damodara: No. So they're coming around. When we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, this is very touchy word which they don't like to hear in the beginning.
Prabhupada: Krsna says, "nonphysical." Nainam chindanti sastrani nainam dahati pavakah, nainam sosayati apah [Bg. 2.23]. Everything, five elements, material... It has nothing to do with these five elements, clearly said in the Bhagavad-gita. It is beyond this. Here whatever you find is ksitir apah tejah marud vyoma: earth, water, air, fire. That's all. But beyond that, it is not physical. And at last, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Everything is there. So I was confident in the statement of Bhagavad-gita. Therefore I strongly stressed, "This is all wrong." I believed completely in the words of Krsna. That's all. I never experimented. But I know what Krsna says is completely right.
Yasodanandana: Yasmad ksaram atito 'ham aksarad atito 'ham.(?) One who knows Krsna knows everything.
Prabhupada: Yes. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If you simply study Krsna, then you'll study everything. Janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvatah [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes competent to enter in the spiritual world and associate with Krsna.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, just like that story with the scissors, how can we force the scientists to accept Krsna and the Bhagavad-gita. How can we force the scientists to accept Bhagavad-gita? The problem seems to be...
Prabhupada: No, if it is a fact, you can force, if it is a fact. And if it is not fact, then it is obstinacy. If it is reality, you can force, just like the father forces the child, "Go to school." Because he knows without education his life will be frustrated, so he can force. I was forced. I was not going to school. Yes. My mother forced. My father was very lenient. My mother forced me. She kept one man especially to drag me to the school. So force is required.
Gurukrpa: But that is the authority. Your parents were your authority.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: But they don't accept us as authority. They say, "I'm equal to you. Actually..."
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness, another foolishness. Father-mother, natural guardian, they can force.
Svarupa Damodara: We have to show that, the higher understanding...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...the higher part of knowledge.
Prabhupada: The child may be foolish but father-mother cannot see that their child will remain a fool. He can force. Government also, why there is military force? Why there is police force? If you want to be outlaw, then you'll be forced to accept the law. Force is required.
Devotee (1): But first the child has to see that there is some benefit from going to school.
Prabhupada: Child cannot see. He's a rascal. He should be beaten with shoes. Then he will see. The child cannot see. Putram ca sisyam ca tadayen na tu lalayet: "Sons and disciples should be always chastised." That is Canakya Pandita. "Never pat them. Lalane bahavo dosas tadane bahavo gunah... "If you pat, then he'll be spoiled. And if you chastise him, he'll come out a very nice person. Therefore, either disciple or son, they should be always chastised." This is the injunction of Canakya Pandita. There is no question of patting them.
Gurukrpa: People want to be flattered. They don't want to be told very strongly.
Prabhupada: And that is the position of disciples. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi' [Cc. Adi 7.71]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was God Himself, and He said that "My Guru Maharaja saw me a fool rascal number one." Chastisement. That is required. Canakya Pandita, a great moral instructor. He has advised, tadayen na tu lalayet: "Always chastise them. Otherwise they'll be spoiled."
Svarupa Damodara: The intelligent boy knows that, that chastisement is mercy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Devotee (2): The scientists are saying that instead of everything coming from the micro organism, instead of that happening now, that it's coming from man. Life is created from man.
Prabhupada: Then life is life. Life coming from life.
Devotee (2): But they're afraid to tell everybody publicly because it is in all the history books and the children will be effected by it. So they say it will be at least ten more years before the truth is out, that actually Krsna is the Supreme in the textbooks in the schools.
Prabhupada: No, if they are afraid of putting the real truth, how they are scientists?
Svarupa Damodara: They are cheaters.
Prabhupada: Cheaters. Here a scientist said that. That is more valuable.
Svarupa Damodara: There's another aspect they call logical positivism...
Prabhupada: So you know all these things. Dedicate your life to turn over all these rascals. You can do that. You are in a position. And present this life is from life to the..., they have Nobel Prize. Yes. You challenge. Will it not be a great challenge?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Even the greatest challenge...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...in science. Everybody's saying the other, and we are saying, very small fraction, almost insignificant.
Prabhupada: Yes, so that is in every science. When you speak the truth there is small section, and then gradually it develops, seed and then big tree, and not immediately big tree.
Svarupa Damodara: Among the professors, see, there is a question, this logical positivism, saying that something, life, is beyond experimental knowledge. Then he said according to logical positivism, whatever we cannot see or whatever we cannot find out by experiment is not science.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is not science. That I am always speaking, that science means not to observe but to make experiment. And that is science, observation and experiment. If you cannot make experiment, it is all logic. Therefore they say, "theory, theory." The Darwin is careful. He says, "theory." He doesn't say, "science," because he knows that he is talking all nonsense. So this is "theory."
Svarupa Damodara: They also say that you cannot prove this atma by experiment.
Prabhupada: Anyway, then it is not science. You cannot prove; then why do you say it can be made by chemical combination.
Satsvarupa: He's saying that they say our position is we can't prove. We can't prove our...
Prabhupada: No, we can prove. Just that... Our argument is that this is beyond our experimental. Therefore you have to hear from the authority. That is our proof. Just like you cannot make an experiment who is your father, but you have to hear from your mother. That is the only way. There is no second alternative.
Satsvarupa: Sabda-pramana.
Prabhupada: Sabda-pramana. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: There is another very strange statement in this regard saying that though we cannot prove something by experiment, but sometimes it is convenient to assume that way.
Prabhupada: No, that is foolishness. How you assume?
Svarupa Damodara: That is logical positivism, saying that... How, there's a house. Let's say there is a temple there, but since I don't see the temple there, but I don't know that the temple is existing or not, but it is convenient to assume that there is a temple.
Prabhupada: No, no. When there is a possibility of getting proof, why shall I assume?
Svarupa Damodara: Because they say they cannot see.
Prabhupada: Now, just the same example: You cannot see. You cannot see your father because the father was before your birth. Only mother can see. How you can refute this argument? Therefore she is the only proof.
Svarupa Damodara: We have a small chapter on this in the book this logical positivism.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Very interesting and very strange.
Prabhupada: It is quite logical that without father, nobody is born. So I do not know who is my father, but the mother is the evidence. That's all. You cannot make this theory that "I was born without father." That is not possible. That is not the laws of nature. But there must be father. You can say, "I have not him." And that is not proof that there is no father. One who has seen, go. Tattva-darsinah. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
 [Bg. 4.34]
Go to mother who has seen your father. That is only proof. Tattva-darsinah. She has seen your father. So you submit, pranipatena, to mother. "Mother, tell me who is my father." And she'll say, "Yes, he is." Tattva... She has seen. Tattva-darsinah. It is not that mother is blindly indicating somebody as father. She has seen, and you have to learn from your mother by submission. That's all. There is no other way.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually we use this theory.
Gurukrpa: So they ask us, "Have you seen God?" They ask us, "So you say you have seen God."
Prabhupada: No, I have not seen. God personally comes, and I see Him. Krsna came. A fortunate person saw him. Just like Arjuna saw. He accepted, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam: [Bg. 10.12] "Oh You are person," sasvatam, "eternally." He has seen. We have to take knowledge from Arjuna. That is called parampara system. He has seen God, and he is giving a statement. You take Arjuna's statement and see God. That is the way. We are not blindly accepting Krsna, but one who has seen Krsna, his statement is there; we accept.
Devotee (1): No one has seen the scientist create life yet, so why should we accept from matter... The scientists are saying life can be made from matter.
Prabhupada: What is this? What does he say?
Svarupa Damodara: He's saying that no one has seen science has created life.
Prabhupada: So why...? Therefore?
Devotee (1): Therefore we should not accept.
Prabhupada: We should not accept.
Devotee (1): An intelligent man will not accept
Prabhupada: Yes. That is another argument, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually we can utilize these theories...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...to disprove their own theories.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: It's very convenient. Like this logical positivism...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is very good argument, that these rascals have never produced life, and why do they say like that? It's good argument because they say that "We have not seen; therefore we don't believe." They're experimental. But you have not experimented. Why you push? Why you brainwash my brain?
Svarupa Damodara: According to this logical positivism, you can say that it is convenient to say that man has arisen from apes, but that is not the truth.
Prabhupada: There is no experiment.
Svarupa Damodara: There's no experiment, but it is convenient to assume according to this logic, but that's not a fact.
Prabhupada: But why the modern ape is not producing any human being?
Svarupa Damodara: They say that's a long time ago...
Prabhupada: Long time.
Svarupa Damodara: Millions of years ago.
Prabhupada: But why man is producing man? Not the ape? Just see how they lunatic they are.
Bhagavata: Why does the process of evolution stop?
Svarupa Damodara: It's convenient to assume that way, but that's not a fact.
Gurukrpa: Convenient means for your sense gratification.
Prabhupada: So we have to discuss so many things, immense field. Go out... [break] At least you have to accept that "I am blind." So how you can show others the path? You are blind.
Jayapataka: By distributing your books, Srila Prabhupada, then the people begin to realize that the scientists are blind. Once they begin to disbelieve and doubt the scientists, then the scientists themselves will also...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: ...be able to come out with the truth.
Prabhupada: When a common man will challenge them that "You are rascal. You are blind. You are showing us road?" Then it will be. I refuse to accept it.
Svarupa Damodara: Also, first of all, we have to show that their theory...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara:...is wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Then give an alternative view and see which one is based on more real knowledge. Then they'll accept. Otherwise they will not.
Prabhupada: So that duty is now entrusted to you, in your hands. Do it very nicely. Krsna will help you. [break]
Jayapataka: ...to disprove them. But we have the true fact, but they cannot... Then let them disprove that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: When the people all understand our philosophy then they'll have to disprove us. Otherwise they won't stand. Why we should disprove their nonsense? They haven't proved it yet.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Well, at the moment they're the majority. So majority carries the vote. That's the slogan. But if they're open-minded, if they are honest... We say, "Be honest, be frank, and be open-minded. Why you confine your small theory?"
Prabhupada: No, they are not open-minded. They have to be pushed within the water. (laughs)
Svarupa Damodara: That's our first remark, "Please let's be open-minded. We are not dogmatic. We're not presenting something religious, fanatic. But let's discuss in open platform, see which one is..."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is our argument. Just like this plant is coming out of the womb of mother. Everything comes from the mother. So there must be father. Anything you see, it is coming from earth. Earth is the mother. Dhenu-dhatri. So where is the father? "I cannot see." You cannot see? That does not mean there is no father. There must be father. And the father says, "Yes!" Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. The answer is there.
Svarupa Damodara: It's a very subtle subject. We try to present this bhakti-yoga among scientists...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...and these physicists and biologists. We are thinking how to do it.
Prabhupada: No, here is argument. Here is... A plant is coming. So yoni... The source of birth is called yoni. So yoni is there, the earth. But who begotten this? There must be father. Because we, our experience, without father and mother there is no generation. You prove that, that here is the mother; there is the child. And where is the father? And the father says, "Yes, I am father." Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. That's all. There must be father. "You do not see." This is not logic. There must be father. So there must be God; otherwise how they are coming? By whose arrangement? Now, the exact fruit and flower will come from this. You bring another tree. Not it will resemble like. Varieties of life. You cannot say it is accident. Huh? Why not accident -- the red flower comes here and the white flower comes there? Accident? They're standing for years. Why there is not a single accident? And accident. You say, "accident."
Svarupa Damodara: This is a nonsense theory.
Prabhupada: Simply rascals. And because we have become rascals, we accept them, "Oh, here is scientist."
Gurukrpa: They find it convenient to accept what these scientists say.
Prabhupada: No, accept, we accept, but we accept the real scientist, Krsna. Therefore we are triumphant. We understand.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, in an audience like that, in, let's say, one hour lecture, we cannot say that "You go to the temple and chant and do all these things."
Prabhupada: No, that is later on. First of all you have to accept that there is original father. That is God. Now, how to realize that God, that is another detail.
Svarupa Damodara: So we made an attempt... I made an attempt to show this, that bhakti-yoga is science, but it is a subtle science. But it has...
Prabhupada: To understand God.
Svarupa Damodara: It needs to...
Prabhupada: It is a science. It is the only science by which you can understand God. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].
Svarupa Damodara: It needs to change our thinking. So we approached like this, that...
Prabhupada: But because they are not accepting the process, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they are bewildered. This is the only process. So if they take to bhakti-yoga, they will see, "Yes, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Oh, everything is Vas... Krsna is the origin." No, they are struggling to know the origin, but because they have not taken the right process, they are bewildered. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. By false ahankara, egotism, they are rejecting, that "There is no God," and they remain in the darkness. Mudha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. Birth after birth they remain in darkness. (pause) Mudha janmani janmani, birth after birth. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: So when we started, saying that "Once we try to understand this fundamental part of knowledge, we should not be too arrogant with nature," that "Let's approach it in a harmonious, in a real humble mind."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: "Then knowledge can be understood in it's proper form."
Prabhupada: And as soon as you become puffed-up, then lost.
Svarupa Damodara: That's what scientists are. They say they'll be able to understand everything by their experimental knowledge. We say, "No, Let's think about it. Let's be honest. There are so many things which are beyond our experimental knowledge."
Prabhupada: Yes. Avan(?) manasa-gocara. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yoja... Which is beyond your knowledge, you don't argue. Accept the authority.
Svarupa Damodara: That is approach. Then we bring bhakti-yoga...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...saying these things.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning, submission. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. That is the beginning of bhakti-yoga. And if you remain just like the scissor man, then you'll never learn.
Svarupa Damodara: And once we bring this bhakti-yoga, we can prove very easily that the Supreme Being, must be a person.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: We have some relations.
Prabhupada: Krsna is speaking as person. [break]
Devotee (1): ...possibility that there is a soul and that there is a God. But when... I showed them a Fifth Canto, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and they were reading about the structure of the universe in the Bhagavatam, and this was completely opposite to all their experiments. So if this is actually a fact, then why can't it be proved experimentally that the Bhagavatam statements on the origin of the universe and so on are correct?
Prabhupada: It is correct. How they can prove it is incorrect?
Devotee (1): Well they say that by mathematics we can prove the position...
Prabhupada: So we have got our mathematics also. [break] ...workers. In the beginning I was alone. Now we have got so many things. So we shall come out triumphant.
Svarupa Damodara: That's Prabhupada's mercy.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Svarupa Damodara: This professor of mine, he was very much against at the beginning of the theory. Then, when I gave this lecture, he invited me for home, in his home, and his wife supported our theory, so he came around, saying that "Yes, science says earth is only 4.5 billion years old, and there are so many defects. So they have to accept that "No, we cannot be correct." So people are coming around slowly.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Kaviraja Gosvami says, sri-krsna-caitanya-daya karaha vicara, vicara karile citte pabe camatkara; [Cc. Adi 8.15] "Just see what kind of merciful is Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and if you consider it perfectly, you'll see it it wonderful." Vicara karile citte pabe camatkara. "Oh, here is Caitanya." Caitanya. Caitanya means living force. He says, vicara, "Just try to understand by logic, by philosophy, by argument." That is vicara. We are not following Caitanya Mahaprabhu blindly. That is not our position. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna argued with Krsna in so many ways. At last, he accepted, "Yes." Param brahma param dhama pavitram: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Person. The rascals, they do not understand Your personality, but Vyasadeva, Narada, Asita, Devala, they have accepted, and I also see. Therefore, whatever you say, I agree. That's all" This is experiment. Arjuna did not accept Krsna blindly. He knew, but for our sake he gave so many arguments. At last, he accepted. We have to follow Arjuna. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare. [break]
Gurukrpa: Great.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: He was great by admitting that he was also a thief, but a big one.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes.
Gurukrpa: So if the scientists admit that actually the are not right, that makes them great.
Prabhupada: Yes, actually. He must be standing on truth. That is greatness. Because "to err is human." Anyone commits mistake. There is no doubt about it. But after committing mistake, if I stick to that mistake, that is foolishness. When it is detected that it is mistake, you must admit. That is greatness.
Svarupa Damodara: We are bringing this law of nature which is a higher order law. [break]
Prabhupada: ...thousandth part of the top tip of the hair. That is also given. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. In the Upanisads there is. The dimension of the atma is given. That small particle, atomic, is so powerful. And what about the Supreme?
Svarupa Damodara: They ask, "What is the force that combined matter and the atma, matter and life, matter and the jiva or atma? What is the force behind it?"
Prabhupada: Force because atma is independent. He can live in the spiritual world or in the material world as he likes.
Svarupa Damodara: But is not correct, Srila Prabhupada, that Paramatma is the...
Prabhupada: Paramatma is...
Svarupa Damodara: ...is behind.
Prabhupada: Yes, behind, yes. He's the origin of atma. Mamaivamsa. Krsna said, "This atma is my small particle part." He says that. So Paramatma is the origin, and these are fragmental parts of Paramatma.
Svarupa Damodara: That makes our statement very valid.
Prabhupada: Yes. Atma... Super-atma is the source of atma.
Svarupa Damodara: They can explain everything, all..., but cannot explain by science.
Prabhupada: That is the Bhagavad-gita, Seventh Chapter, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh bhinna me prakrtir astadha: [Bg. 7.4] "They are also My energy, and beyond this, there is superior energy." Jiva-bhutam maha-baho [Bg. 7.5]. Both of them, energies, the material elements and the spiritual element, both of them are different energy of the supreme atma. So one is superior; another is inferior. Because we are superior, we are controlling the inferior energy, and by such control, from inferior energy matter, we have created this motor car. Therefore I am superior.
Svarupa Damodara: In the West, Srila Prabhupada, in Western philosophy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: This subject matter is called "mind-body problem." The mind sometimes they compare as spirit or soul in some Western philosophical circles.
Prabhupada: Because they are not yet advanced. Beyond the mind there is intelligence, and beyond the intelligence there is the soul.
indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu sah
 [Bg. 3.42]
They have come up to the mind, but above the mind there is intelligence, and above intelligence there is soul. So we can understand this very easily because we accept Bhagavad-gita. It is easy for us. And for others, they are going step by step. It is very difficult. But we can understand immediately.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. It's true that that theory that everything is material or everything beyond matter is false... (end)

 

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You Must Be Punished

Bhubanesvara, January 29, 1977

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Prabhupada: Yes, tasteful. [break] By accident, huh? The rascal has said. (train whistle) [break] ...scientist?Satsvarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: If by chance everything is taking place, what is the use of science?
Satsvarupa: They don't say their work is by chance, but ultimately everything is by chance. But they have...
Prabhupada: That is a very good explanation. (chuckles)
Bhagavata: Isaac Newton disproved that theory.
Prabhupada: Hm. Chance. [break]
Hari-sauri: So one man, he did a paper called "Life Has No Meaning."
Prabhupada: Accha? [break]
Satsvarupa: That means dead.(?) (laughter)
Prabhupada: Life has no meaning, but the lifeless man's words have meaning.
Satsvarupa: We have to give life meaning, and that's the glory of man, they say, that he finds the meaning, gives his own meaning to the meaningless. [break]
Prabhupada: "Life has no meaning," eh?
Hari-sauri: To get the Nobel Prize.
Satsvarupa: They say you should face up to that uncertainty or no meaning and then just live your life in that... Without taking some meaning from the sastra or anybody, you just...
Prabhupada: Simply take from him.
Satsvarupa: Each person has to find within himself the meaning.
Prabhupada: Then why you are distributing meaning and take Nobel Prize? Let him do in his own way. Why you are anxious to give some meaning?
Hari-sauri: Yes. That's the same idea as Krishnamurti. You don't need a guru, but he's written thirteen books to tell everyone.
Prabhupada: He has written thirteen books?
Hari-sauri: Something like that.
Bhagavata: At the end of his book he said, "When you're finished reading it, throw it away."
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bhagavata: When you're finished reading this book you should throw it away.
Hari-sauri: 'Cause you don't actually need it.
Satsvarupa: And that philosopher of this philosophy, Camus, he said, "Don't try to lead me because I may not want to follow you, and don't follow me because I am not capable of leading you. Just walk beside me and be my friend." So he said by writing his books he was not trying to lead other people but just trying to free them from following falsely any absolute philosophy.
Prabhupada: Then he has to follow you because by taking your instruction I shall stop following others; that means I'll have to follow you. So what is the benefit? Instead of following others, I have to follow you? My following is there. That is not stopped.
Satsvarupa: They claim they don't want to be leaders, but actually they do.
Prabhupada: That means rascal. What he says, that is contradictory. That means rascal.
Prthu-putra: But he commit suicide at the end of his life, Camus, yes. He's a philosopher, a French philosopher. He commit suicide at the end of his life. Can you believe that?
Passerby: Jaya!
Prabhupada: Jaya. [break]
Satsvarupa: You were asking yesterday what are some of the charges that the opposing party makes against us. That's another one, that we follow absolute authority, your authority and also in the temples, that the temple president or leaders, they have authority, and this is not healthy psychology, that we should...
Prabhupada: Why you come to pose your authority? If authority is not good, then why do you come to instruct your authority? Hm? The same thing, eh, change from one authority to another authority.
Satsvarupa: But I don't say you have to accept me absolutely as...
Prabhupada: Then why do you speak nonsense then, if I haven't got to accept you? What is the use of speaking all nonsense? If nobody accepts you, then why do you talk nonsense? Somebody's selling something, and if he says, "Don't purchase it," then what is the use of... (laughs) All contradiction. After all, they are nonsense.
Satsvarupa: They think that by surrendering to the spiritual master, if many people do this, it will be very dangerous because they won't think for themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right. But you ask to surrender to you, so why shall I not surrender to my spiritual master? What is the use of changing surrendering?
Satsvarupa: Well, at least if we don't have absolute authority, I may tell you something and if it's not good, you don't have to follow me.
Prabhupada: So why do you speak nonsense, the same thing, if I haven't got to follow you? Why you waste your time and waste my time?
Hari-sauri: If what he's saying has no value, then why should he speak?
Prabhupada: Then why do you waste your time?
Satsvarupa: Relative value.
Prabhupada: That I have already got.
Satsvarupa: And that's all there is, they say.
Prabhupada: Already I have got relative value.
Devotee (1): They say that each man has his own life to live so he can take the best from many authorities. He can say, "Well, I like some of what you are saying and some of what someone else is saying, so I can take what's best for me in my life."
Prabhupada: But if I find in one place the best, why shall I take so much trouble? Why do you induce me to go here and there if I get in one place everything?
Satsvarupa: That's what we found.
Hari-sauri: If I like everything you're saying, then why shouldn't I accept that?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: And why should they object if we decide to surrender to one authority?
Prabhupada: They are asking surrender.
Hari-sauri: They're actually envious because they want everybody to follow their idea of going here and there.
Satsvarupa: One person said, "This kind of thing reminds me of Hitler's Germany. If there's too much authority or blind following, it's not healthy."
Prabhupada: No, too much authority if the authority is wrong... But if the authority is right, then it is very better to submit in one place and get everything. Just like we go to some supermarket. We get everything there, we go there.
Hari-sauri: And there's no question of blind following either.
Prabhupada: No.
Hari-sauri: Otherwise why would we distribute so many books?
Satsvarupa: I went to one professor who refused to help us, and he said the reason is... Although we may be being persecuted now and we're a small movement, by reading our books and talking to the devotees, he thinks that if we ever did become powerful we would also become intolerant and we would not allow people to have any other religion. So he said, "Although you're small, I'm afraid to help you."
Prabhupada: That means he does not understand us.
Satsvarupa: Is it a fact that if Krsna consciousness was the main power, would people be allowed to...?
Prabhupada: Which way? Which way? This way?
Satsvarupa: In the Vedic culture, are people allowed to follow any other belief? In a society where there is Krsna conscious king or president, say someone doesn't want to be a devotee. What happens to him?
Prabhupada: Devotee... Unless one is devotee, he cannot become Krsna conscious. Imam rajarsayo... Means at king, the same time...
Satsvarupa: No. The king, if the king is a devotee, but one of the subjects says, "I still don't believe in Krsna, but I want to live here also."
Prabhupada: So king has the power to chastise him. Just like if this child says, "I don't believe in education," shall I have to accept? He must be punished. He's a child. He can say, "Father, I don't believe in education. Let me play." Will the father allow? Chastise him. That is king's duty.
Devotee (1): So if someone wanted to be, say, a Christian in the Krsna conscious..., a society led by a Krsna conscious person, if someone wanted to be a Christian, would he be chastised?
Prabhupada: First of all, whether Christian is religion or, imperfect thing, we have to see that. The father does not chastise always. When the son does wrong, then he chastises. Otherwise why shall he chastise? Christian means if they... Religion means one who believes in God and abides by the order of God. That's his religion.
Satsvarupa: So if they chanted Christos and stopped eating meat but they still wanted to follow the Bible...
Prabhupada: No, Bible... But if they follow Bible, that is religion, approved. But they do not follow. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." They are killing. So what kind of Christian he is? He's a nonsense.
Satsvarupa: They should be chastised.
Prabhupada: Yes. They should be punished. That is the duty of the king. You follow any bona fide religion; you get all protection. But you don't follow; you must be chastised. That is king's duty. A king has no objection whether you are following Christian method or Hindu method. It doesn't matter. But you must have some religion. If you have no religion, then you are animal. You must be chastised. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. Religion means you believe in God and love Him. That's all, three words, religion. "You believe in God" means know God, what is God. And love Him. That's all. This is religion. So it doesn't matter whether you understand God through Christian method or Hindu method. But you love God and you abide by the orders of God. Then you are religious. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means, religion means, the words of God. So you must know what is God, and you must know what does He say. Then you are religious. It doesn't matter what it is, Christian and Hindu. Gold is gold. Whether you purchase it from a Muhammadan shop or Hindu shop or Christian shop, it doesn't matter. You must get gold. That's all. So whether you have got God? If you have got some fictitious God, then you must learn what is God. What is that? You do not know God, so you must learn what is God. If you refuse to learn, then you must be punished. And if you know God, then it is all right. If you do not know, then you must learn. If you refuse to learn, must be punished. That's all.
Devotee (1): What is the test we can understand someone... If someone says, "I know God," then how can we...
Prabhupada: Say what is God. Say what is God. What do you mean by God?
Devotee (1): "God is the force moving the universe," he says.
Prabhupada: Then that means you do not know. Force... A child can also see the force. But behind the force, who is there? Whenever there is force, there must be one person forceful who is forcing. You know that?
Devotee (1): Well, I am in no position to see.
Prabhupada: That's right. Then learn it from me. Otherwise, if you refuse, then you must be punished. That is my duty.
Hari-sauri: You were just saying that a person who's not religious, he's no better than an animal, but he might argue that even the animals have a right to live undisturbed.
Prabhupada: No, animal... Right to live with animal is subjected to be punished, just to live rightly. Suppose a cow comes with his horn like that. He must be punished immediately, the atrocity.(?) Then he'll be corrected.
Hari-sauri: But there are so many animals living in the jungle who don't...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. No, jungle, we have no business to go there. We have rejected jungle. Let them live there. But in the human society, if the animal disturbs, it must be punished -- with stick.
Satsvarupa: What about say a Buddhist who practices ahimsa...?
Prabhupada: Now, Buddhist... I say there is no question of "Buddhist," "Christian." One must know what is God.
Satsvarupa: But he would say, "I follow our leader, and we don't believe in the Personality of Godhead."
Prabhupada: But if you follow... Then leader is a wrong person. You cannot follow. You must follow the right leader.
Hari-sauri: One cannot say that he does not believe in the power of the state.
Prabhupada: Then that is not leadership. That is misleader. These are very intelligent questions, nice. King means he has to see that the citizens are doing nicely, and that is king's duty.
Bhagavata: The king is like a father.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated. Lord Ramacandra treated His subjects as sons and they also treated Lord Ramacandra as father. That is the relationship between the citizens and the king-father and son.
Bhagavata: The chastisement that the king gives...
Prabhupada: That is out of love.
Bhagavata: Out of love.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not by enviousness. Chastisement means correction. He's in the wrong way; he is corrected to the right way. So gradually you have to take the power of the king to correct the whole human society. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. That is Krsna's business, to give protection to the right person and to chastise the wrong person, two things required, side by side. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. And dharma-samsthapanarthaya. Three, another. By chastising the wrongdoer and by giving protection to the right man, and then establish what is real religion. And then Krsna's mission, Krsna consciousness, is perfect. Three things: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam, dharma-samsthapanarthaya yuge yuge sambhavami. This is Krsna's business. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita, everything will be nice, everything.
Satsvarupa: Nowadays coming to power usually means some violent revolution or political maneuvers.
Prabhupada: They are trying also to correct, but they do not know how to correct. That is the defect. And therefore we take this authority, that "Here everything is correct." Everyone is trying to remodel, but they do not know how to remodel. Hare Krsna. [break] (in car)
Prthu-putra: ...but he's not writing books himself. It's all people. They hear his conferences, they collect all his conferences, and they write for him. He never wrote any books himself, Krishnamurti.
Hari-sauri: No, I read a book he wrote. [break] A friend recommended it to me. He said he was very exuberant. He said he'd found a book you could read and throw away at the end. So out of curiosity, I started to read...
Prabhupada: So why shall I take the trouble? I throw it immediately. (laughter)
Hari-sauri: I got the book, and I... There was one chapter called, "Does God Exist?" something like that. So I turned to that one first. And after I read the first paragraph, I threw the book out, (laughs) because he was saying, "Well, God exists if you believe He exists. And if you don't believe He exists, then He doesn't exist."
Prabhupada: So it depends on me. God's existence depends on me.
Hari-sauri: Yeah. So I thought, "Well, if he's leaving it up to me to decide..." I was buying the book to try and find some information. So what was the...? So I couldn't see the value in the thing. [break]
Prabhupada: ...all the clubs, they...
Satsvarupa: Social.
Prthu-putra: Lions and Rotary. Very often we have engagements in these clubs, and they always drink and do their nonsense. [break]
Prabhupada: They have "mation." What is that? "Cremation"? [break]
Satsvarupa: This year in the United States several temples had very good success by advertising a cooking class in the college, because many times the students, they don't want to come when they see Bhagavad-gita or bhakti-yoga. But they would see "Indian Cooking," and they would go, and in the class they would teach how to make cooking, but then they would preach, "And so this food should be offered to God, and this is the Bhagavad-gita." In this way it was much...
Prabhupada: Very good. This is very nice.
Prthu-putra: Yes. We had also classes like this in Paris. People were coming just to learn how to cook. And in that way they could hear the philosophy.
Gargamuni: Prabhupada, these are the vehicles that I can get for three thousand rupees.
Prabhupada: Then you have to repair.
Gargamuni: Yes, but still, this vehicle, if it was being sold... [break]
Prabhupada: Authority is sufficient. And if he's imperfect, he cannot be authority. So change of authority means everyone is imperfect, so why shall I do like that?
Satsvarupa: That's even... That's their philosophy. There's a saying, "Nobody's perfect."
Prabhupada: No. That you do not know, who is perfect. That is your ignorance. We know. If I know who is perfect, why shall I take your advice, "Nobody is perfect"? Krsna is perfect. I know from authorities, from perfect persons.
Hari-sauri: Then they might argue that "I have my authority, and I'm happy to live by it."
Prabhupada: But you do not believe in authority. You say, "Nobody is perfect." How you get, have, authority? Your statement is "Nobody is perfect," so how you can get?
Hari-sauri: But as far as my own happiness goes...
Prabhupada: You are unhappy.
Prthu-putra: So then the question is... After Arjuna heard the whole Bhagavad-gita and understood it, when he engaged in the battlefield, still, when he heard that Abhimanyu, his son, died, he was very agitated again and...
Prabhupada: So that is natural. If my sons dies, I will not be agitated? What is the wrong there?
Prthu-putra: Well, one advocate asked me this in Allahabad.
Prabhupada: That is temporary. That is temporary, but it is natural. Suppose if I prick you, you feel some pain, but that is temporary. Agamapayinah anityah. They come and go.
Hari-sauri: Well, you may say that I'm unhappy with the authority I've got now, but if you force me to accept Krsna consciousness when I don't want it, then that will also make me unhappy.
Prabhupada: No, if it is right thing, then I am right to force you.
Satsvarupa: This is against our democratic spirit in the West. It...
Prabhupada: Democratic means "demoncratic."
Satsvarupa: That's why they revolted against the kings, so that they wouldn't have to be forced. "Give me liberty or give me death."
Hari-sauri: But under that banner of saying "This is good for you," you can force me to do all kinds of things.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that is king's duty. Then force. Otherwise why there is military force? (end)

 

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We Give Christ All Honor

February 3, 1977

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Hari-sauri: Yes. You said preaching is a thankless task.Prabhupada: Just see Jesus Christ-crucified. What was his fault? He was crucified. Of course, he was not crucified. Nobody can crucify him. But the people are so thankless...
Hari-sauri: That they wanted to do that.
Prabhupada: Such a great personality, son of God. He wanted to deliver God consciousness. And return, he was crucified. We don't take Jesus Christ very insignificantly. We give him all honor. He's representative of God. He tried to preach according to the time, place, circumstances, country, people. Otherwise he is representative of God.
Hari-sauri: Yeah. He only preached for three years too.
Prabhupada: He could not preach even but still, in three years what he did is wonderful.
Hari-sauri: Yes, He's world famous for the last two thousand years.
Prabhupada: Yes, not joke. Unless he's God representative, how he can be so famous? That we know. I told in Melbourne, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" And "He's our guru," I told. You remember that?
Hari-sauri: I don't... That was at one of those...
Prabhupada: The priest meeting.
Hari-sauri: Yes. I didn't attend that. I wasn't there.
Prabhupada: They asked me. And, "He's our guru." They very much appreciated. He is preaching God's consciousness, so he is our guru, spiritual master. That's a fact. Don't take him otherwise. He's guru.
Hari-sauri: It's just his nonsense followers.
Prabhupada: Gurusu nara-matih. Such person, great personality, why shall think of him as ordinary human being? That is naraki-buddhi.
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: Anyone who is preaching God's glories, he is guru. So how can I decry him? He is guru. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Unless one is guru how he can preach about God?
Hari-sauri: Yes. Actually we have a much better appreciation of Jesus than anyone.
Prabhupada: More yes. Oh, yes.
Hari-sauri: Because we actually understand the value of the guru.
Prabhupada: We are the greatest Christian. We follow his instruction; we accept him as guru.
Hari-sauri: Yeah. Without following the guru's instructions, there's no question of appreciating who he is or his work.
Prabhupada: And this word, Jesus, the Christ, it is not?
Hari-sauri: Well, originally they say it was "Jesus of the Christ."
Prabhupada: (indistinct) Christ means...
Hari-sauri: God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: So they... Originally it was "Jesus of the Christ," meaning he was son of God.
Prabhupada: Yes. That Christ is Krsna.
Hari-sauri: Yeah. Same word.
Prabhupada: Hm. Krisht, Krisht. Christ means Krisht, Krisht. Krishta is vulgar expression of Krsna. No, from his teaching, we can understand he is representative of God.
Hari-sauri: Oh, yes. What he was teaching is exactly in accord with what we're doing.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: I was reading some of his instructions, what he was giving to his original disciples. And he gave them examples, that "The birds, they are not worrying about their food. God is supplying. So you should not worry for your food. You should simply go out and preach."
Prabhupada: He said like that?
Hari-sauri: Yes. He said, "So what should you worry if you go out and preach? Do you think that God will not give to you?"
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: "He is giving to the birds."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is, our mission.
Hari-sauri: Yes. And he told them, "You should not worry for your food, for your clothing, for somewhere to stay. If you preach then God will look after all those things."
Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact.
Hari-sauri: And he had them give up everything. They had a common pool. Anyone that came to join him, they would pool all their resources and share it among them. Anybody who was with nothing, he would get something. They would get food and clothing, like that.
Prabhupada: We are planning like that. "Come, take your food. Reside comfortably. Chant Hare Krsna."
Hari-sauri: Yes. We have no objection for...
Prabhupada: No.
Hari-sauri: ...feeding. He was an actual Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Hari-sauri: Teaching Vaisnava principles.
Prabhupada: If he has taken sometimes fish, there was no way. What can be done? Not for his sense gratification.
Hari-sauri: Even that's not certain, that he took fish anyway.
Prabhupada: Sometimes it is said.
Hari-sauri: Well, it mentions that they distributed foodstuffs to a lot of people, fish and bread, 'cause that's all that was available.
Prabhupada: Yes, what can be done?
Hari-sauri: And because it wasn't always easy to get good water, there's a very cheap kind of wine. It's not actually very alcoholic. It's very, very cheap. Then they used to drink that because there's no good water.
Prabhupada: That is not plea that we shall drink bottle after bottle.
Hari-sauri: Yes. (laughs) Catholic priests, they have a big stock in their cabinets, so much wine.
Prabhupada: If they want to be reformed, we can reform them. On the basis of Bible, we can reform them. There is no difficulty.
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: Most of my disciples they are coming from the Christian group. They can reform. Chanting is also recommended in the Bible, the glories of the Lord. I do not know why these rascals, Protestant... That means... The Protestant means last class. Why they should protest against Jesus law? Protestant means that. They protested. Is it not?
Hari-sauri: I'm not sure about... I don't know much about the history of Protestants.
Prabhupada: Yes. That King John, who started this Protestant movement? Some king in England.
Hari-sauri: Yes, it was started like that.
Prabhupada: Yes. He was forbidden not to divorce his wife.
Hari-sauri: That was the Church of England, Henry the VIII.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, Henry the VIII. He started this Protestant.
Hari-sauri: He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
Prabhupada: But this...
Hari-sauri: So he started the Church of England.
Prabhupada: ...Protestant group was started by him.
Hari-sauri: I don't know anything about their history.
Prabhupada: That is the history.
Hari-sauri: There's always been fighting between the Protestants and the Catholics though.
Prabhupada: Well, fighting must be there. They protested.
Hari-sauri: There's so many Christian sects.
Prabhupada: There are many. Means they don't want anything genuine. Something imitation. What is the cause of fighting, this Ireland? Unnecessarily. It is going on in Europe since long time. In France it was very terrible fight. I have seen that Church. They would bell, and they'll come and fight Protestant. You have been there? No. Concord. It is... That place is called Concord. So history there is a building, church. The Catholics would come and kill the Protestants. The Joan of Arc.
Hari-sauri: She was burnt.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Europe has a big history of...
Prabhupada: Fighting.
Hari-sauri: Religious fighting.
Prabhupada: Crusade? Crusade?
Hari-sauri: Yes. The Crusades were against the Arabs, though.
Prabhupada: That was a religious fight.
Hari-sauri: Yes. Christians against the Mohammedans. That article of Gurudasa's was very nice.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hari-sauri: They asked him, "Do you think that another religion will help Ireland?" criticizing that "We've already got two religions and they're fighting. What do you think you're going to do?" So then he said, "Well, actually, it's another way of life, and Ireland could certainly use another way of life." It was a good point. We get a good reception there too, our devotees. People are very pious there because Ireland is still very simple.
Prabhupada: Everywhere people are simple. That is my opinion. Mass people, they are simple. The leaders spoil them.
Hari-sauri: Yes. That's a fact. Most people are just... They're in ignorance.
Prabhupada: Yes. The human psychology is the same for man, woman. That's all. Amongst the lower animals you see. The pigeons, they are the same. The sparrow, they are the same everywhere. The squirrels, the same, the same. So why men should be different?
Hari-sauri: It's artificial, the differences they've created themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: On national basis.
Prabhupada: In Russia I have seen. The people are the same.
Hari-sauri: Yes. Common mass of people are always...
Prabhupada: Simple.
Hari-sauri: I think I'll see what's happening with the van.
Prabhupada: Hm. (end)

 

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The Great Soul

January 31, 1977

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Prabhupada: With determination. Otherwise, satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. Satatam means twenty-four hours. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. Harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. But that we cannot do. Therefore to keep drdha-vrata, we have fixed up a certain quantity. Chant that. Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih kalavasani-krtau. About the Gosvamis-sankhya-purvaka: "So many times." Not only chanting, also offering obeisances. Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih. Nati means pranati. "I shall offer obeisances hundred times." Gosvamis, they used to do that. Still in Radha-kunda, Vrndavana, you'll see many devotees. They offer, counting, flat, so many times. So we have to take some labor. It is not so easy thing that you realize (chuckling) God so easily. Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih kalavasani-krtau. The valuable time of human life should be utilized only for cultivating Krsna consciousness. That is perfect. No other business. Sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is sarva-dharman. But if you cannot do that, all right, makeminimum: "So many times I shall chant. So many times I shall offer obeisances." Make some drdha-vrata. Then gradually it will be successful.
Guest (5): (Bengali)
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna-twenty-four hours. Japa-tapa. Tapasya. Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. Japa means tapa, tapasya. And that is drdha-vrata. Tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. Tapasya begins with brahmacarya. There is no tapasya, there is no brahmacarya, there is no drdha-vrata, there is no understanding, and they are becoming guru. Just see these Europeans, Americans. Their life beginning was meat-eating. And they have given up everything. This is tapasya. And we shall eat everything, do everything... Yato mata tato patha. "Whatever I like, I do, and still a devotee." What is this nonsense? Jaya.
Guest (6): Visvasa first, faith strong.
Prabhupada: No, where is faith if we do not execute tapasya? Where is faith? Visvasa sudrdha niscaya. That is visvasa, the same thing. This is visvasa: "Krsna said this; I shall do." This is visvasa. And if you do not do anything, what Krsna says, where is visvasa? There is no visvasa. Krsna says, satatam kirtayanto mam: [Bg. 9.14] "Anyone who is chanting Me, Hare Krsna..." So Krsna says; I must do it. That is visvasa. If you do not do that, where is visvasa? What do you mean by visvasa? Visvasa means sudrdha niscaya. "Yes, Krsna has said. I shall do." That is visvasa. If you have no faith in the words of Krsna, where is your visvasa? What do you mean by visvasa? Hm?
Guest (6): Bhagavan's servant.
Prabhupada: Bhagavan is your servant. Whatever you like, you can do, and He'll serve you. You'll not serve Him. He will serve you. Is that visvasa? "Whatever nonsense I do, Krsna will support." Is that visvasa? Visvasa means "What Krsna says, I shall do." That is visvasa. That has been impressed at the modern age, that "Whatever I do, Krsna will accept it." Is it not? Do you mean visvasa means this, that "Whatever nonsense you do, Krsna will accept"? Do you mean visvasa means this? Then what is visvasa? Explain. "Whatever Krsna says, I will do," that is visvasa. Or "Whatever nonsense I do, Krsna will favor"? Which one visvasa? What do you mean...? Huh?
Guest (6): There is one pervading Supreme Soul.
Prabhupada: What is that pervading? What do you mean by that? Plain explain. What do you mean by visvasa? Explain.
Guest (6): Faith in God.
Prabhupada: Faith in God. Then hear what God says. That is... I am speaking that "What Krsna says, you do it." That is visvasa. And if you do otherwise, where is visvasa? Hm? Visvasa means... I say, "Mr. such and such, do this." If you have faith in me, you will do this. That is visvasa. And if you do otherwise, where is your visvasa? You have no faith in me. Now people have degraded so much that they think, "This is visvasa. Anything I accept as God is God." This visvasa is going on. "Any nonsen... [break] ...pravartate, iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg. 10.8]. Is it not? So if you take this, that Krsna is the beginning of everything -- iti matva -- by understanding this, if anyone engages himself in krsna-bhakti, bhajante mam, that is bhakti. Budha bhava-samanvitah. He has come immediately to the bhava stage. Means he's budhah. He is actual... He has actually understood the thing. So that is visvasa. In Caitanya-caritamrta it is said visvasa... Sraddha-sabde visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya, krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya [Cc. Madhya  22.62]. Krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. This is visvasa. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I am thinking, "I have got so many other things. Simply why shall I surrender?" That is not visvasa. Visvasa means "Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. I'll accept." Krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta. That is visvasa. Sudrdha niscaya. Sraddha-sabde visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya, krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. That is visvasa. That visvasa wanted, not that I manufacture something. It is useless. Moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jnana vicetasah [Bg. 9.12]. That is hopeless. What Krsna says, if you believe firmly, then it is visvasa. Drdha-vrata. And execute, determination. Then you get the result. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. Such mahatma is very rare. And nowadays mahatma means one who does not know anything about Krsna, speaks all nonsense. He is mahatma. "Because we stamp somebody, mahatma, therefore he is mahatma." Find out this verse, mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim [Bg. 9.13].
Satsvarupa:
mahatmanas tu mam partha
daivim prakrtim asritah
bhajanty ananya-manaso
jnatva bhutadim avyayam
 [Bg. 9.13]
"O son of Prtha, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible."
Prabhupada: This is mahatma. Is there any purport?
Satsvarupa: Yes. "In this verse the description of mahatma is clearly given. The first sign of the mahatma is that he is already situated in the divine nature. He is not under the control of material nature. And how is this effected? That is explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, at once becomes freed from the control of material nature. That is the qualification."
Prabhupada: Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti.
Satsvarupa: "One can become free from the control of material nature as soon as he surrenders his soul to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the preliminary formula. Being marginal potency, as soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature, he is put under the guidance of the spiritual nature. The guidance of the spiritual nature is called daivim prakrtim, divine nature. So when one is promoted in that way by surrendering to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one attains to the stage of a great soul, mahatma. The mahatma does not divert his attention to anything outside Krsna because he knows perfectly well that Krsna is the original Supreme Person, the cause of all causes. There is no doubt about it. Such a mahatma or great soul develops through association with other mahatmas, pure devotees. Pure devotees are not even attracted by Krsna's other features, such as the four-armed Maha-Visnu. They are simply attracted by the two-armed form of Krsna. Since they are not attracted to other features of Krsna, what to speak of the demigods, they are not concerned with any form of a demigod or of a human being. They only meditate upon Krsna in Krsna consciousness. They are always engaged in the unswerving service of the Lord in Krsna consciousness."
Prabhupada: Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. That is the... What do you think? What is your definition of mahatma?
Guest (1): Gita said, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19].
Prabhupada: Yes. Gita says, but what you say? Recently I went to Wardha, Mahatma Gandhi's asrama. Nobody is there. And they are worshiping Mahatma's lantern, and Mahatma's cadara. Not a single picture of Krsna. (chuckles) There is not a single picture of Krsna. And here it is said, bhajate mam ananya-bhak. This is going on. So read Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Learn. Everything is there. Make your life successful. That is our proposal. Come here. We have developed this center in good quarter. Discuss Bhagavad-gita and try to do what Krsna says. Make your life perfect. (Hindi) We are misguided. Misguided... (Hindi) Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita: "This mahatma; this is God; this is function; this you have to do." Do it. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things anyone can do. A child can do.
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantar-atmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo matah
 [Bg. 6.47]
First-class yogi -- one who is thinking of Krsna. (Hindi) There is no difficulty. Take Bhagavan prasada; chant Bhagavan's name; read Bhagavad-gita; try to understand. Very easy. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Hm? Do you think is there any difficulty? [break] ...Hindi.
Guest (7): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) ...asat-sanga-tyaga ei vaisnava-acara [Cc. Madhya 22.87]. You must give up the association of bad elements. And who is bad element? Asat eka stri-sangi krsna abhakta ara: One bad element is one who is too much attached to women, and the other bad element is who is not devotee of God. Give up their association. Then you will be steady. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteh [SB 5.5.2]. If you actually associate with mahatmas, so that will open your door of liberation. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimuktes tamo-dvaram yositam sangi-sangam. Those who are too much materially attached, if you associate with them, then you are going in the darkest region, not liberation, but in the darkness. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. Those who are too much to material enjoyment -- they cannot control their senses -- they're going in the darkest region. Tamo-dvaram. Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya. This is Vedic instruction, "Don't go to the darkness; go to the light." Hare Krsna.
Satsvarupa: There is prasadam being served now.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) (end)

 

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