Satsvarupa:kamasya
nendriya-pritir
labho jiveta yavata
jivasya tattva-jijnasa
nartho yas ceha karmabhih
[SB 1.2.10]
"Translation: Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (German)
Prabhupada: Te, what is that? Jivasya tattva-jijnasa, inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being.
Professor Durckheim: Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one we are never talking about has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: That this goes together. (German)
Prabhupada: Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. (German)
Vedavyasa: He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is explained here. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth but under, among us.
Prabhupada: So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. (German)
Vedavyasa: He says it's a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind...
Prabhupada: But you cannot do good to others because you do not know what is good. (German)
Prabhupada: You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false. Therefore the conception of goodness is also false. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: I cannot accept that the body is false.
Prabhupada: No, no. I withdraw that word false. But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. (German) Just like...
Dr. P. J. Saher: But I live my identity with the body.
Prabhupada: With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. You are simply... Just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment. I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. (German) If I simply decorate this body, apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the... This is false attempt, that we are trying... This is called. In the Bhagavata it is said that apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing, so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because he says...
Prabhupada: But because he does not know that he is not this body.
Vedavyasa: Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body.
Prabhupada: No, remains means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours... It is a question of hours and years. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...saying that this body is, the soul is eminent.
Prabhupada: The soul is different from the body.
Vedavyasa: Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of, actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. P. J. Saher: As long as we are alive.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (German) [break] ...soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. (German)
Vedavyasa: He doesn't want to separate.
Prabhupada: But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives.
Professor Durckheim: I think the difference is now just one, that Sir Fox (?) spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore.
Prof. Pater Porsch (Indian man): May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks "I am the spirit. I have a body." or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body. Another example. Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important... Important, it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it -- it is torn -- you throw it away. You take another coat. (German)
Prof. Pater Porsch: Can we not also say that self and not self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny.
Prabhupada: Must separate, must separate.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Either through death or destiny.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. (German) So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding.
Professor Durckheim: I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by realize the eternal truth?"
Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only the aim but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this... (indistinct)
Professor Durckheim: That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. (German) [break]
Hamsaduta: Professor Durckheim's question was: "Very simply, what is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process?
Prabhupada: The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth. By association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God then gradually you become Godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red-hot. When it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God then gradually you become Godly or or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (German) [break]
Professor Durckheim: ...holy name of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Holy name of God.
Professor Durckheim: Of God.
Prabhupada: If you don't like to chant Krsna you chant in your own way. Chant the name of God. If you know the name of God chant it. If you do not know then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name and if you don't know then take it from me. (German) [break] ...explained by Caitanya Mahaprabhu that God has many thousands of names or God has no name. No name means He has, He has got so many thousands of millions of names that you cannot say, "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say Krsna. Krsna means all-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Krsna. This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. (German) I think Lord Jesus Christ said "God, hallowed be Thy name."
Satsvarupa: The Lord's Prayer: "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be They name."
Prabhupada: So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: He says from the Old Testament that Jesus said, "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name because if we...
Prabhupada: So how He can be no name? He says, "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that.
Vedavyasa: But there's no name in the Bible...
Prabhupada: That doesn't mean... He might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says, "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you don't know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name. He says the "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name but you do not know. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to...
Prabhupada: Because there is name, you find out.
Vedavyasa: He said that when it says, "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected...
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. So that we say that God has no particular name. But according to His action His name is there. Just like Krsna. Krsna is not the name. Krsna means all-attractiveness.
Professor Durckheim: Just as Buddha is not a name.
Prabhupada: Hm. Because He's man of knowledge, therefore He's called Buddha.
Dr. P. J. Saher: The one who has reached...
Prabhupada: Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge.
Professor Durckheim: Buddha is not a name of somebody, yes.
Prabhupada: Just like you say, "Hallowed be Thy name." President. President. Now the president has a name but you do not know. But the president must have a name. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Has the name a special esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name, has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened...
Prabhupada: No, not hidden but open because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute you become purified.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Like iron in fire.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's right. (German) [break] ...Vedic injunction:
harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord harer nama, harer. Harer means of the Lord and nama means name. Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the sastra says harer nama harer nama harer nama, nama eva kevalam, simply chant the Lord's name. Kalau, in this age of Kali. Nasty eva, nasty eva, nasty eva gatir anyatha. There is no other alternative for self-realization, no other alternative for self-realization, therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. (German) Kali means the age of quarrel, the age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarrel. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth. But they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German) what should be done in relation to that or how it is, how it is formulated in that, in that total, in that complete system of your reverent teachings?
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the bhakti-marga, means, the first thing is sravanam, hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God we simply imagine something. No. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly then you can describe to others. That is called kirtanam. Sravanam, kirtanam. And when the process goes on hearing and chanting or describing, kirtanam means describing. Just like our, this whole society is hearing from these books and they're going out to describe. This is called kirtana. Then by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaranam. That means remembering, you always associate with God.
Dr. P. J. Saher: So at all times, "Remember Me."
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam, offer prayer, dasyam, serve. In this way, there are nine different processes.
Dr. P. J. Saher: We have a similar thing in the Christian (German).
Prabhupada: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti, that is bhakti. (German) [break] Kali-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say, "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says, "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this." Is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united, but they're increasing flags. That's all. Fighting, it is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam. It was meant for unity but it is rendered into fighting association. That's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, anyone should give his perfect knowledge.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Do you mean the Kali-yuga exists all the time?
Prabhupada: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed so many. Instead of making solution the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma-sutra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma jijnasa. Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth is that from which, or from Whom, everything has come. Athato brahma jijnasa, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Now you find out where is the... Everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim. That if you follow these philosophical quotes then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also athato jijnasa. Athato jijnasa means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear..." Should do it like this. That is one thing. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...was the always the desire of mankind to find (indistinct) he says the kings should be wise and the wise men should be kings.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Vedavyasa: So he said that this was always the desire but...
Prabhupada: But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring. But whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire, I desire... (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...saying that knowledge is important also...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Knowledge, that is described. Knowledge is according to the quality of the person. If the man is a debauch, what is the value of his knowledge? We cannot take up the knowledge that's given by a debauch. The perfect human being is described. Samo damas titiksa, arjava. Find out.
Satsvarupa: Yes. (German)
Vedavyasa: She says that we cannot have heaven on earth.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it.
Prabhupada: No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can men... because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification?
Satsvarupa:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
"Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, calmness, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness. These are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."
Prabhupada: That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. (German)
Vedavyasa: He doubts that everyone is convinced about that.
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?
Vedavyasa: He's doubting if we should convince them of that.
Prabhupada: Well, who is not self-controlled, he'll not be convinced because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control?
Professor Durckheim: But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the (indistinct) step you get somewhere, you see where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you...
Prabhupada: No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction that is also perfect. But they do not follow.
Professor Durckheim: They do not...
Prabhupada: They do not follow.
Professor Durckheim: Sure...
Prabhupada: That's it. Otherwise either you follow Bhagavad-gita or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming "I am Christian." "I am Hindu." "I am this." "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification but rubber stamp. This is the defect. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...qualifications on the material platform.
Prabhupada: First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. (German) Just like I think in the university if one wants to learn about law he must be graduate first of all.
Dr. P. J. Saher: In India. Yes.
Prabhupada: So you, first of all become graduate then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brahmana. Then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brahmana how you can understand? (German) [break]
Satsvarupa: (reading from Bhagavad-gita) "...three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German) [break]
Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never, but you never asked us who we are and who we should become (indistinct)." This is the problem.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul.
Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon.
Prabhupada: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. (German)
Vedavyasa: He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: He said that if you said that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now...
Prabhupada: Actual program, the actual program is there. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: :He's speaking of the gradual process of self-realization. First of all...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: We are speaking of the gradual process of self-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing, if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these...
Prabhupada: Chant Hare Krsna. That will do. Yes, you haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will..., you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending the chant the holy name of God. Do it. (German) Not that you chant the name of Krsna. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (German) [break] Then how can I help you? There is (indistinct). You do not know. So our recommendation is, not my recommendation, from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad-gita, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty?
Dr. P. J. Saher: To know the name, because I...
Prabhupada: To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that?
Dr. P. J. Saher: There's thousands and millions of...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it?
Dr. P. J. Saher: No. I say millions of names. I'm looking for the name and...
Prabhupada: :Yes. But if I've given you the name why don't you take it?
Dr. P. J. Saher: Because I'm not convinced that is the right name.
Prabhupada: That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. (German) How can I help? (German) You do not know the name, if somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take. That is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority. Satatam kirtayanto mam.
Satsvarupa:
satatam kirtayanto mam
yatantas ca drdha-vratah
namasyantas ca mam bhaktya
nitya-yukta upasate
[Bg. 9.14]
"Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship me with devotion." (German) [break]
Dr. P. J. Saher: ...and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this?
Prabhupada: But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here. There's much difference.
Dr. P. J. Saher: I mean, my question only I saw singing the people...
Prabhupada: No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see.
Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for (indistinct)
Prabhupada: (indistinct) ...you have to see the resultant study.
Dr. P. J. Saher: I was quite surprised.
Prabhupada: Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena pariciyate, you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes. That would be the criterion for me.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion when St. Paul speaks. They had the same...
Prabhupada: No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion. That's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. Yes you can take.
Vedavyasa: Srila Prabhupada, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God.
Prabhupada;: Yes. That is the business in this age. Chant the holy name of God.
Professor Durckheim: Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible...
Prabhupada: That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ.
Hamsaduta: Prabhupada, would you like to take your prasadam now?
Prabhupada: Not now. Later. The simplest method-chant the holy name of the Lord. That's all.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference?
Prabhupada: If you chant loudly then others can hear. They also take benefit.
Vedavyasa: Should we translate?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: Should we translate?
Prabhupada: Yes. (German) Even the birds and beasts they will hear and be benefited. (German) Therefore loud chanting is recommended. So that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. (German)
Prof. Pater Porsch: I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. One Christian priest -- I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii -- so he came to talk with me. He inquired "Swamiji, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Without drugs.
Prabhupada: Yes. And one Christian priest he showed one pamphlet that these boys, they're our boys but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it? He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple -- this was a church, big church -- but it was not going on. It was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of... the same men, the same place. The crowd is so... Why? I have not brought all these men from India. Judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations, they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these... They have given up everything.
Professor Durckheim: And they are working in the society, they are working...
Prabhupada: We are working, we are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work.
Professor Durckheim: I see.
Prabhupada: We have no other... Even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income?" There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA, what is this? (everyone laughs) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Krsna. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that we have no information that these people are CIA but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution. That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very... If you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vrndavana center and Navadvipa center, not less than 200 men are there always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. (German) Here is a girl, Kausalya. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married. She's happy. She has everything here. Life is there. (pause) Hare Krsna. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. (German)
Satsvarupa: May we take your leave, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No. You sit down. I do not... I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Krsna's talk that is your (indistinct) already. Satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. Why do you stop? Satatam. Go on. Continuous. What is that? Satatam means?
Satsvarupa: Always?
Prabhupada: Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah, namasyantas ca mam... [Bg. 9.14].
Prof. Pater Porsch: In what way can he support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can he offer optimal benefit to your movement?
Prabhupada: That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Krsna. That's all.
Prof. Pater Porsch: No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example...
Hamsaduta: Yes. We have got a life membership program which can be (indistinct) can participate in that way.
Prabhupada: You can become a life member and read all these books and chant Hare Krsna. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Krsna there is no material loss on your part, but if there is any gain, why don't you take it?
Prof. Pater Porsch: No, my question was perhaps a little, not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad-gita in this form, in such ways, perhaps?
Prabhupada: Yes. We are writing these books for distribution.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one.
Prabhupada: Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Here is my dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books.
Hamsaduta: Prabhupada came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad-gita, Caitanya-caritamrta.
Prabhupada: And what is the number of books sold last year?
Satsvarupa: Four million.
Prabhupada: Four million copies.
Prof. Pater Porsch: May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our, or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such but something more. It should also be an asrama and also a forest university in the tradition of the ancient times.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: A kind of a university also.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences.
Prabhupada: My idea is that all our centers should be self-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go 100 miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New..., West Virginia, Virginia, and similarly in other centers, we are producing our food, grains, vegetables, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animals. That we don't do.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But will this center also be a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. Yes. You can play a little record. Last night...
Hamsaduta: This morning's recording?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: May I please ask, are there is also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names?
Prabhupada: Yes, but we are exercising by dancing.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupada singing is played)
Prabhupada: Make little louder. (tape plays for about five minutes of Prabhupada singing prayers to the six Gosvamis) What are these pictures?
Hamsaduta: These are pictures of our society's activities in the temples.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Very constructive and very... So much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966.
Prabhupada: '67.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And during the Bangladesh crisis you also...
Prabhupada: Yes, anyone came; we feed. That much... There were many refugees, so we fed them.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But that automatically answers the question of this gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see...
Prabhupada: No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also. There is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Mayapura center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included.
Lady: Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food, everything.
Prof. Pater Porsch: I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of...
Prabhupada: No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture, can unite. This is the only place, Krsna consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. [break] ...distinction.
Devotee: (showing Srila Prabhupada's books) This is Spanish, Chinese.
Prof. Pater Porsch: (indistinct) Chinese.
Prabhupada: Japanese also. And Hindi.
Devotee: Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German)
Prabhupada: Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by-product.
Prabhupada: No. We are teaching... Of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil... We don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jivasya tattva-jijnasa, to inquire about the Absolute Truth.
Prof. Pater Porsch: So can you not say that this knowledge is an atma-vidya, that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the atman.
Prabhupada: Atmine?
Prof. Pater Porsch: Atma, self.
Prabhupada: Oh, atma, yes. Tattva-jijnasa means atma-jijnasa.
Prof. Pater Porsch: That is why it is also correct to translate the term krsna-arjuna-samvara (?) as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge.
Prabhupada: (aside:) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical, everything is there.
Prof. Pater Porsch: In the Gita it also, a verse, that "Four kinds of persons seek Me..."
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Catur-vidha bhajante mam.
Prof. Pater Porsch: "The man who seeks knowledge."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, catur-vidha. And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidha. No. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. Everything is there.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of, where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness. They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German).
Professor Durckheim: But this time is over.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: The modern times are not modern anymore.
Professor Durckheim: I agree with you but just think how the world was only a few years ago.
Professor Durckheim: Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational (German), the really German tradition is the irrational. So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly.
Prabhupada: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on, changing.
Prof. Pater Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street... I don't mean... Yes, it was, of course, in Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the...
Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German) [break]
Professor Durckheim: ...I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is...
Prabhupada: No, we invite everyone.
Professor Durckheim: You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement...
Hamsaduta: Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the (German). He is a life member. And all people...
Professor Durckheim: He's simply a member?
Hamsaduta: Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and he is a member. But his lifestyle is Krsna consciousness. (end)
labho jiveta yavata
jivasya tattva-jijnasa
nartho yas ceha karmabhih
[SB 1.2.10]
"Translation: Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (German)
Prabhupada: Te, what is that? Jivasya tattva-jijnasa, inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being.
Professor Durckheim: Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one we are never talking about has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: That this goes together. (German)
Prabhupada: Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. (German)
Vedavyasa: He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is explained here. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth but under, among us.
Prabhupada: So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. (German)
Vedavyasa: He says it's a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind...
Prabhupada: But you cannot do good to others because you do not know what is good. (German)
Prabhupada: You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false. Therefore the conception of goodness is also false. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: I cannot accept that the body is false.
Prabhupada: No, no. I withdraw that word false. But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. (German) Just like...
Dr. P. J. Saher: But I live my identity with the body.
Prabhupada: With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. You are simply... Just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment. I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. (German) If I simply decorate this body, apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the... This is false attempt, that we are trying... This is called. In the Bhagavata it is said that apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing, so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because he says...
Prabhupada: But because he does not know that he is not this body.
Vedavyasa: Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body.
Prabhupada: No, remains means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours... It is a question of hours and years. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...saying that this body is, the soul is eminent.
Prabhupada: The soul is different from the body.
Vedavyasa: Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of, actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. P. J. Saher: As long as we are alive.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (German) [break] ...soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. (German)
Vedavyasa: He doesn't want to separate.
Prabhupada: But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives.
Professor Durckheim: I think the difference is now just one, that Sir Fox (?) spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore.
Prof. Pater Porsch (Indian man): May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks "I am the spirit. I have a body." or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body. Another example. Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important... Important, it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it -- it is torn -- you throw it away. You take another coat. (German)
Prof. Pater Porsch: Can we not also say that self and not self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny.
Prabhupada: Must separate, must separate.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Either through death or destiny.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. (German) So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding.
Professor Durckheim: I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by realize the eternal truth?"
Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only the aim but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this... (indistinct)
Professor Durckheim: That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. (German) [break]
Hamsaduta: Professor Durckheim's question was: "Very simply, what is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process?
Prabhupada: The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth. By association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God then gradually you become Godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red-hot. When it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God then gradually you become Godly or or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (German) [break]
Professor Durckheim: ...holy name of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Holy name of God.
Professor Durckheim: Of God.
Prabhupada: If you don't like to chant Krsna you chant in your own way. Chant the name of God. If you know the name of God chant it. If you do not know then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name and if you don't know then take it from me. (German) [break] ...explained by Caitanya Mahaprabhu that God has many thousands of names or God has no name. No name means He has, He has got so many thousands of millions of names that you cannot say, "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say Krsna. Krsna means all-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Krsna. This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. (German) I think Lord Jesus Christ said "God, hallowed be Thy name."
Satsvarupa: The Lord's Prayer: "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be They name."
Prabhupada: So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: He says from the Old Testament that Jesus said, "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name because if we...
Prabhupada: So how He can be no name? He says, "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that.
Vedavyasa: But there's no name in the Bible...
Prabhupada: That doesn't mean... He might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says, "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you don't know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name. He says the "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name but you do not know. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to...
Prabhupada: Because there is name, you find out.
Vedavyasa: He said that when it says, "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected...
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. So that we say that God has no particular name. But according to His action His name is there. Just like Krsna. Krsna is not the name. Krsna means all-attractiveness.
Professor Durckheim: Just as Buddha is not a name.
Prabhupada: Hm. Because He's man of knowledge, therefore He's called Buddha.
Dr. P. J. Saher: The one who has reached...
Prabhupada: Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge.
Professor Durckheim: Buddha is not a name of somebody, yes.
Prabhupada: Just like you say, "Hallowed be Thy name." President. President. Now the president has a name but you do not know. But the president must have a name. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Has the name a special esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name, has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened...
Prabhupada: No, not hidden but open because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute you become purified.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Like iron in fire.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's right. (German) [break] ...Vedic injunction:
harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord harer nama, harer. Harer means of the Lord and nama means name. Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the sastra says harer nama harer nama harer nama, nama eva kevalam, simply chant the Lord's name. Kalau, in this age of Kali. Nasty eva, nasty eva, nasty eva gatir anyatha. There is no other alternative for self-realization, no other alternative for self-realization, therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. (German) Kali means the age of quarrel, the age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarrel. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth. But they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German) what should be done in relation to that or how it is, how it is formulated in that, in that total, in that complete system of your reverent teachings?
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the bhakti-marga, means, the first thing is sravanam, hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God we simply imagine something. No. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly then you can describe to others. That is called kirtanam. Sravanam, kirtanam. And when the process goes on hearing and chanting or describing, kirtanam means describing. Just like our, this whole society is hearing from these books and they're going out to describe. This is called kirtana. Then by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaranam. That means remembering, you always associate with God.
Dr. P. J. Saher: So at all times, "Remember Me."
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam, offer prayer, dasyam, serve. In this way, there are nine different processes.
Dr. P. J. Saher: We have a similar thing in the Christian (German).
Prabhupada: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti, that is bhakti. (German) [break] Kali-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say, "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says, "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this." Is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united, but they're increasing flags. That's all. Fighting, it is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam. It was meant for unity but it is rendered into fighting association. That's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, anyone should give his perfect knowledge.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Do you mean the Kali-yuga exists all the time?
Prabhupada: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed so many. Instead of making solution the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma-sutra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma jijnasa. Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth is that from which, or from Whom, everything has come. Athato brahma jijnasa, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Now you find out where is the... Everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim. That if you follow these philosophical quotes then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also athato jijnasa. Athato jijnasa means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear..." Should do it like this. That is one thing. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...was the always the desire of mankind to find (indistinct) he says the kings should be wise and the wise men should be kings.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Vedavyasa: So he said that this was always the desire but...
Prabhupada: But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring. But whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire, I desire... (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...saying that knowledge is important also...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Knowledge, that is described. Knowledge is according to the quality of the person. If the man is a debauch, what is the value of his knowledge? We cannot take up the knowledge that's given by a debauch. The perfect human being is described. Samo damas titiksa, arjava. Find out.
Satsvarupa: Yes. (German)
Vedavyasa: She says that we cannot have heaven on earth.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it.
Prabhupada: No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can men... because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification?
Satsvarupa:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
"Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, calmness, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness. These are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."
Prabhupada: That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. (German)
Vedavyasa: He doubts that everyone is convinced about that.
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?
Vedavyasa: He's doubting if we should convince them of that.
Prabhupada: Well, who is not self-controlled, he'll not be convinced because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control?
Professor Durckheim: But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the (indistinct) step you get somewhere, you see where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you...
Prabhupada: No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction that is also perfect. But they do not follow.
Professor Durckheim: They do not...
Prabhupada: They do not follow.
Professor Durckheim: Sure...
Prabhupada: That's it. Otherwise either you follow Bhagavad-gita or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming "I am Christian." "I am Hindu." "I am this." "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification but rubber stamp. This is the defect. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: ...qualifications on the material platform.
Prabhupada: First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. (German) Just like I think in the university if one wants to learn about law he must be graduate first of all.
Dr. P. J. Saher: In India. Yes.
Prabhupada: So you, first of all become graduate then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brahmana. Then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brahmana how you can understand? (German) [break]
Satsvarupa: (reading from Bhagavad-gita) "...three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German) [break]
Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never, but you never asked us who we are and who we should become (indistinct)." This is the problem.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul.
Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon.
Prabhupada: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. (German)
Vedavyasa: He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: He said that if you said that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now...
Prabhupada: Actual program, the actual program is there. (German) [break]
Vedavyasa: :He's speaking of the gradual process of self-realization. First of all...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: We are speaking of the gradual process of self-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing, if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these...
Prabhupada: Chant Hare Krsna. That will do. Yes, you haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will..., you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending the chant the holy name of God. Do it. (German) Not that you chant the name of Krsna. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (German) [break] Then how can I help you? There is (indistinct). You do not know. So our recommendation is, not my recommendation, from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad-gita, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty?
Dr. P. J. Saher: To know the name, because I...
Prabhupada: To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that?
Dr. P. J. Saher: There's thousands and millions of...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it?
Dr. P. J. Saher: No. I say millions of names. I'm looking for the name and...
Prabhupada: :Yes. But if I've given you the name why don't you take it?
Dr. P. J. Saher: Because I'm not convinced that is the right name.
Prabhupada: That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. (German) How can I help? (German) You do not know the name, if somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take. That is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority. Satatam kirtayanto mam.
Satsvarupa:
satatam kirtayanto mam
yatantas ca drdha-vratah
namasyantas ca mam bhaktya
nitya-yukta upasate
[Bg. 9.14]
"Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship me with devotion." (German) [break]
Dr. P. J. Saher: ...and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this?
Prabhupada: But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here. There's much difference.
Dr. P. J. Saher: I mean, my question only I saw singing the people...
Prabhupada: No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see.
Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for (indistinct)
Prabhupada: (indistinct) ...you have to see the resultant study.
Dr. P. J. Saher: I was quite surprised.
Prabhupada: Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena pariciyate, you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes. That would be the criterion for me.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion when St. Paul speaks. They had the same...
Prabhupada: No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion. That's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. Yes you can take.
Vedavyasa: Srila Prabhupada, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God.
Prabhupada;: Yes. That is the business in this age. Chant the holy name of God.
Professor Durckheim: Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible...
Prabhupada: That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ.
Hamsaduta: Prabhupada, would you like to take your prasadam now?
Prabhupada: Not now. Later. The simplest method-chant the holy name of the Lord. That's all.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference?
Prabhupada: If you chant loudly then others can hear. They also take benefit.
Vedavyasa: Should we translate?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Vedavyasa: Should we translate?
Prabhupada: Yes. (German) Even the birds and beasts they will hear and be benefited. (German) Therefore loud chanting is recommended. So that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. (German)
Prof. Pater Porsch: I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. One Christian priest -- I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii -- so he came to talk with me. He inquired "Swamiji, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Without drugs.
Prabhupada: Yes. And one Christian priest he showed one pamphlet that these boys, they're our boys but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it? He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple -- this was a church, big church -- but it was not going on. It was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of... the same men, the same place. The crowd is so... Why? I have not brought all these men from India. Judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations, they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these... They have given up everything.
Professor Durckheim: And they are working in the society, they are working...
Prabhupada: We are working, we are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work.
Professor Durckheim: I see.
Prabhupada: We have no other... Even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income?" There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA, what is this? (everyone laughs) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Krsna. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that we have no information that these people are CIA but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution. That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very... If you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vrndavana center and Navadvipa center, not less than 200 men are there always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. (German) Here is a girl, Kausalya. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married. She's happy. She has everything here. Life is there. (pause) Hare Krsna. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. (German)
Satsvarupa: May we take your leave, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No. You sit down. I do not... I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Krsna's talk that is your (indistinct) already. Satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. Why do you stop? Satatam. Go on. Continuous. What is that? Satatam means?
Satsvarupa: Always?
Prabhupada: Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah, namasyantas ca mam... [Bg. 9.14].
Prof. Pater Porsch: In what way can he support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can he offer optimal benefit to your movement?
Prabhupada: That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Krsna. That's all.
Prof. Pater Porsch: No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example...
Hamsaduta: Yes. We have got a life membership program which can be (indistinct) can participate in that way.
Prabhupada: You can become a life member and read all these books and chant Hare Krsna. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Krsna there is no material loss on your part, but if there is any gain, why don't you take it?
Prof. Pater Porsch: No, my question was perhaps a little, not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad-gita in this form, in such ways, perhaps?
Prabhupada: Yes. We are writing these books for distribution.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one.
Prabhupada: Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Here is my dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books.
Hamsaduta: Prabhupada came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad-gita, Caitanya-caritamrta.
Prabhupada: And what is the number of books sold last year?
Satsvarupa: Four million.
Prabhupada: Four million copies.
Prof. Pater Porsch: May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our, or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such but something more. It should also be an asrama and also a forest university in the tradition of the ancient times.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: A kind of a university also.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences.
Prabhupada: My idea is that all our centers should be self-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go 100 miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New..., West Virginia, Virginia, and similarly in other centers, we are producing our food, grains, vegetables, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animals. That we don't do.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But will this center also be a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. Yes. You can play a little record. Last night...
Hamsaduta: This morning's recording?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: May I please ask, are there is also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names?
Prabhupada: Yes, but we are exercising by dancing.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupada singing is played)
Prabhupada: Make little louder. (tape plays for about five minutes of Prabhupada singing prayers to the six Gosvamis) What are these pictures?
Hamsaduta: These are pictures of our society's activities in the temples.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Very constructive and very... So much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966.
Prabhupada: '67.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And during the Bangladesh crisis you also...
Prabhupada: Yes, anyone came; we feed. That much... There were many refugees, so we fed them.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But that automatically answers the question of this gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see...
Prabhupada: No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also. There is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Mayapura center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included.
Lady: Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food, everything.
Prof. Pater Porsch: I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of...
Prabhupada: No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture, can unite. This is the only place, Krsna consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. [break] ...distinction.
Devotee: (showing Srila Prabhupada's books) This is Spanish, Chinese.
Prof. Pater Porsch: (indistinct) Chinese.
Prabhupada: Japanese also. And Hindi.
Devotee: Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German)
Prabhupada: Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by-product.
Prabhupada: No. We are teaching... Of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil... We don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jivasya tattva-jijnasa, to inquire about the Absolute Truth.
Prof. Pater Porsch: So can you not say that this knowledge is an atma-vidya, that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the atman.
Prabhupada: Atmine?
Prof. Pater Porsch: Atma, self.
Prabhupada: Oh, atma, yes. Tattva-jijnasa means atma-jijnasa.
Prof. Pater Porsch: That is why it is also correct to translate the term krsna-arjuna-samvara (?) as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge.
Prabhupada: (aside:) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical, everything is there.
Prof. Pater Porsch: In the Gita it also, a verse, that "Four kinds of persons seek Me..."
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Catur-vidha bhajante mam.
Prof. Pater Porsch: "The man who seeks knowledge."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, catur-vidha. And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidha. No. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. Everything is there.
Prof. Pater Porsch: But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of, where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness. They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German).
Professor Durckheim: But this time is over.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: The modern times are not modern anymore.
Professor Durckheim: I agree with you but just think how the world was only a few years ago.
Professor Durckheim: Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational (German), the really German tradition is the irrational. So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly.
Prabhupada: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on, changing.
Prof. Pater Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street... I don't mean... Yes, it was, of course, in Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the...
Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German) [break]
Professor Durckheim: ...I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is...
Prabhupada: No, we invite everyone.
Professor Durckheim: You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement...
Hamsaduta: Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the (German). He is a life member. And all people...
Professor Durckheim: He's simply a member?
Hamsaduta: Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and he is a member. But his lifestyle is Krsna consciousness. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19,
1974, Germany
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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