Prabhupada: Simply for Krsna,
there is simply to understand Krsna. Anything else-waste of time. But in Krsna's
connection there are varieties. Does it mean, although the dictaphone is there,
still I shall write in my hand? Krsna consciousness cannot touch this. We don't
follow this nonsense philosophy. Unnecessary vairagya. Suska-vairagya, dry
knowledge.Devotee (1): Suska-vairagya.
Prabhupada: Suska, suska means dry. Oh, it is material, I shall not touch. I shall not touch. Just like that rascal, Ramakrishna, if anyone wanted to give him some money (gesture). (laughter) How, he does not touch money. These rascals, why shall I not touch? Come on, you have got money, George Harrison, spend. Yes, come on, I shall take it, for Krsna. We haven't come to this house for living very comfortably and enjoying. No, we have come here for Krsna's service.
Hamsaduta: This point is revolutionary in spiritual circles.
Prabhupada: Because it is Krsna's property. It is not my property, neither George's property. This is mistake. Everything belongs to Krsna. So it must be utilized for Krsna.
Revatinandana: Simply they don't know Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: They don't know Bhagavad-gita, therefore they don't understand us.
Prabhupada: No, no. Therefore I say, all... Immediately, how you are all rascals. We have got a test. Test tube. As soon as one is not Krsna conscious, he is rascal, he is miscreant, he is lowest of the mankind, he has no knowledge. These, these are groups, they belong to. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah. He maintains that he is very big man, Nixon, but we know that he is a rascal number one. This is Krsna consciousness. You can understand immediately what is what. By this test:
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
[break]
Revatinandana: ...you said if he's coming from God, then what difference does it make?
Prabhupada: You can see that you are a fool (but) God is not fool. That is the difference. But God is (indistinct), He'll not speak foolish. Because he is above all this foolishness but you are within the foolishness. That is the difference. Try to answer them like that. You are within the status of foolishness, maya, and God is above maya. If God is also within the maya, as the rascal Mayavadis say, then what is the use of God? We are everything.
Yogesvara: They just accumulate knowledge just for knowledge sake.
Prabhupada: Not just for knowledge because they do not get any knowledge. They have no knowledge. What is the knowledge? They talk all nonsense. What is the knowledge?
Revatinandana: His argument was "Well there's no point in talking about this matter. All of us accept this." He's saying: all big authorities, they accept this point of view, that this was recently written literature.
Prabhupada: No, they don't know who are authorities.
Revatinandana: That's right.
Prabhupada: You manufacture your own authorities. You do not know. That is your misfortune. You do not know who is authority.
Devotee (2): They all smoke cigarettes and they think they're authorities. They're nonsense.
Revatinandana: I met another old authority on Sanskrit and he is sitting behind his desk and his whole body is shaking: "No, I'm not interested in the spiritual side of these Vedas. I'm just interested in the Sanskrit." He's dying you know, and still he's like that. That's their authority. You can't save them but...
Prabhupada: Adhyaki, adhyaki(?), therefore adhyaki(?).
Revatinandana: What's that?
Prabhupada: External. Adhyaki(?). (indistinct) ...one is interested in the body not in the soul. So he is a fool. This, this sculptor, he is simply interested in the outward body, he has no knowledge of the soul. And he wants to become a very famous man, remaining in the category of asses. Because one who is in the bodily concept of life, he is an ass. Go-khara, khara means ass. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life he is no better than animal. The cats and dogs, they are also in the bodily concept of life. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. So he has not advanced beyond these cats and dogs because he is in the same conception, that I am this body. A dog cannot understand that you are not this body. So similarly, if the human being cannot understand that he is not this body, what is the difference between him and the dog? So sastra says sa eva go-kharah: [SB 10.84.13] he's no better than the cows and the asses. That's all. And actually it is a fact. The first instruction of Bhagavad-gita, they cannot take it, and they're scholars. That is the most regrettable situation that these fools and rascals under the bodily concept of life, they are become authorities. Actually they are asses. Yes.
Revatinandana: I used to observe when I was going to the university that all my professors, their intellectual business was just a profession like digging ditches.
Prabhupada: That's all. For earning money.
Revatinandana: For their pleasure they're going home to drink beer and eat steak. That's all they're really interested in. They're just working to make money. I could see it and I didn't want to follow their footsteps.
Prabhupada: Just like a sudra, he cleans in the road for money. They are going as professor but the category is the same. You don't make any distinction between that sweeper and this professor. Or a hog and cat and dog. The hog is also working hard, whole day and night for stool, eating. So this man is also working like that. Beyond that he has no other knowledge.
Revatinandana: The scientists, they have a term. Psychologists, they call it the idiot savant. The idiot savant means he's an idiot but he has one particular talent and because of that talent he can get along. Just like sometimes you find an idiot, he can look at a column of figures and he can compute the sum in his head very easily but he can't even understand how to tie his shoes. And I think these scholars are like that, they're actually idiots but they have one talent for Sanskrit or for history and because of that they can get along. They can support their body but otherwise they have no qualifications.
Prabhupada: Sudra. Unless he gets that post, he'll starve. He has got some talent in some particular subject but he must get some service. By serving others, he'll be able to utilize his talent and get some money, then he'll eat. This is sudra's business. Dog's business. Just like a dog unless he has got a nice master, his position is very precarious. A street dog. Nobody will care neither it is (indistinct).
Yogesvara: You point out in Srimad-Bhagavatam that they go to school and learn to become Ph.D., then they have to knock on the door for a job and no one will open the door.
Prabhupada: No vacancy, sir. So just like dog.
Revatinandana: But they have a way to force them to work. The politicians force the scholars.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: If they don't print books, if they don't write a book every now and then and print it, get it published, they lose their tenure, their position as a professor. They must produce one book, then another book, then another book. If they don't, finished. In this way they are working all the time.
Prabhupada: The Marwaris in India, they don't educate their son. Just like Birla. They say, "We can purchase these rascals, why we should waste our time. (laughter) So-called technicians, so-called expert computer, these are... We can purchase, why we shall waste our time."
Hamsaduta: It's the same thing I learned in Germany. First I wanted to get my own press and I studied the situation very carefully and I saw it was ridiculous for us to do that, it's so much hard work. It's much easier to collect the money in the street by giving the magazine and then paying someone. They work very hard and do it. Everything is like that. They have so many people that can do everything. The one thing that people can't do is distribute Krsna consciousness and for that Krsna's giving so much money.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovidah. That verse. Only for this purpose one should endeavor.
Hamsaduta: Yes. Krsna (indistinct) paying for that.
Prabhupada: You cannot purchase Krsna consciousness -- you can have money -- that you have to cultivate.
Revatinandana: Yeah, when Mr. Birla is getting old then he has to come to us, if he has any sense.
Prabhupada: No they say, they simply give primary education (indistinct) they can read, that's all. And (indistinct). They don't send because everyone knows that sending boys to the school means spoil them. That's all. I have seen intelligent boys, they go to school and he is spoiled. Yes, spoiled. He learns how to smoke, how to have sex, how to talk nonsense, how to use knife, how to fight, these things. At least at the present moment. Yes. Simply slaughterhouse, this so-called school is called slaughterhouse. Yes, slaughterhouse.
Revatinandana: It was when I went to school -- I was a nice little boy -- in school I failed out, only (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, you must take as intelligent. That so..., time was wasted. Our, this gurukula should be taken care of very nicely. So nice preachers may come out. Brahmana, nice brahmana.
tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatam upary adhah
tal labhyate duhkhavad anyatah sukham
kalena sarvatra gabhira-ramhasa
[SB 1.5.18]
Revatinandana: I'm still thinking about the other morning, we were talking about how everything is actually spirit. Everything is composed of spiritual atoms actually, souls. We were talking about the...
Prabhupada: That is Vedic version, sarvam khalv idam brahma, everything is Brahman.
Revatinandana: When we speak about the transmigration of the soul, we speak about 8,400,000 species. Does that include the inanimate objects as well, within those 8,400,000?
Prabhupada: Sthavara, sthavara, they are called sthavara, immovable. He means hills, mountains, stones. They are called sthavara. Sthavara, which cannot move.
Revatinandana: So actually we don't really...
Prabhupada: Sthavara laksa-vimsati. Two million types of sthavara.
Revatinandana: So we don't actually discriminate between the tree, and say, the atom, as a living entity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Haribol. Little by little it's becoming clear.
Prabhupada: Sthavara, sthavara means one cannot move, standing. Sthavara-jangama. There are two kinds of living entities. One moving, one not moving.
Yogesvara: But the atom is always in motion. The atoms and molecules are always constantly moving.
Prabhupada: That movement is different. That is not independent movement.
Yogesvara: Is that to say that a stone has a living entity in it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Actually what we discussed is that every, even the elements, the atoms, everything is made of nothing but spirit souls in fallen conditions. Because everything comes from brahmajyoti, which is nothing but spirit souls, and brahmajyoti... Therefore soul never changes. So this manifestation is from brahmajyoti. Therefore, it is made of souls. It is nothing else but spirit souls. Yesterday, a few days ago we discussed that.
Prabhupada: It is simply covered by another energy which is called material energy. And that is maya. Maya means that is not actual, not factual. The example is given, just like the sun is covered by the cloud. The cloud is nothing but another creation of sun. But when the cloud comes, sun is invisible. Similarly this condition, forgetfulness, is my creation and when I am covered by this forgetfulness I become stones and atoms, like that.
Hamsaduta: In Bhagavad-gita, it says that the soul is immovable. In the Second Chapter there is a verse that says the soul is immovable.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: What does that mean exactly? Are we not moving? In that verse it says immovable and...
Prabhupada: Sthanu, means fixed up.
Hamsaduta: You mean its nature is...?
Prabhupada: Unchangeable.
Hamsaduta: Unchangeable. Not that we are not moving. We are moving.
Prabhupada: Might be that word was not properly used. Sthanu, the word is sthanu. If you have got Sanskrit, you know what is the meaning of sthanu. And acalo 'yam, acalo 'yam, yes.
Revatinandana: The point of all those...
Prabhupada: That means acalo 'yam also, so acalo 'yam. Acalo 'yam means that does not move. Sthanur acalo 'yam, in the Bhagavad-gita it is given. You can see. Now there is no time.
Revatinandana: It's time for class. (end)
Prabhupada: Suska, suska means dry. Oh, it is material, I shall not touch. I shall not touch. Just like that rascal, Ramakrishna, if anyone wanted to give him some money (gesture). (laughter) How, he does not touch money. These rascals, why shall I not touch? Come on, you have got money, George Harrison, spend. Yes, come on, I shall take it, for Krsna. We haven't come to this house for living very comfortably and enjoying. No, we have come here for Krsna's service.
Hamsaduta: This point is revolutionary in spiritual circles.
Prabhupada: Because it is Krsna's property. It is not my property, neither George's property. This is mistake. Everything belongs to Krsna. So it must be utilized for Krsna.
Revatinandana: Simply they don't know Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: They don't know Bhagavad-gita, therefore they don't understand us.
Prabhupada: No, no. Therefore I say, all... Immediately, how you are all rascals. We have got a test. Test tube. As soon as one is not Krsna conscious, he is rascal, he is miscreant, he is lowest of the mankind, he has no knowledge. These, these are groups, they belong to. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah. He maintains that he is very big man, Nixon, but we know that he is a rascal number one. This is Krsna consciousness. You can understand immediately what is what. By this test:
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
[break]
Revatinandana: ...you said if he's coming from God, then what difference does it make?
Prabhupada: You can see that you are a fool (but) God is not fool. That is the difference. But God is (indistinct), He'll not speak foolish. Because he is above all this foolishness but you are within the foolishness. That is the difference. Try to answer them like that. You are within the status of foolishness, maya, and God is above maya. If God is also within the maya, as the rascal Mayavadis say, then what is the use of God? We are everything.
Yogesvara: They just accumulate knowledge just for knowledge sake.
Prabhupada: Not just for knowledge because they do not get any knowledge. They have no knowledge. What is the knowledge? They talk all nonsense. What is the knowledge?
Revatinandana: His argument was "Well there's no point in talking about this matter. All of us accept this." He's saying: all big authorities, they accept this point of view, that this was recently written literature.
Prabhupada: No, they don't know who are authorities.
Revatinandana: That's right.
Prabhupada: You manufacture your own authorities. You do not know. That is your misfortune. You do not know who is authority.
Devotee (2): They all smoke cigarettes and they think they're authorities. They're nonsense.
Revatinandana: I met another old authority on Sanskrit and he is sitting behind his desk and his whole body is shaking: "No, I'm not interested in the spiritual side of these Vedas. I'm just interested in the Sanskrit." He's dying you know, and still he's like that. That's their authority. You can't save them but...
Prabhupada: Adhyaki, adhyaki(?), therefore adhyaki(?).
Revatinandana: What's that?
Prabhupada: External. Adhyaki(?). (indistinct) ...one is interested in the body not in the soul. So he is a fool. This, this sculptor, he is simply interested in the outward body, he has no knowledge of the soul. And he wants to become a very famous man, remaining in the category of asses. Because one who is in the bodily concept of life, he is an ass. Go-khara, khara means ass. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life he is no better than animal. The cats and dogs, they are also in the bodily concept of life. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. So he has not advanced beyond these cats and dogs because he is in the same conception, that I am this body. A dog cannot understand that you are not this body. So similarly, if the human being cannot understand that he is not this body, what is the difference between him and the dog? So sastra says sa eva go-kharah: [SB 10.84.13] he's no better than the cows and the asses. That's all. And actually it is a fact. The first instruction of Bhagavad-gita, they cannot take it, and they're scholars. That is the most regrettable situation that these fools and rascals under the bodily concept of life, they are become authorities. Actually they are asses. Yes.
Revatinandana: I used to observe when I was going to the university that all my professors, their intellectual business was just a profession like digging ditches.
Prabhupada: That's all. For earning money.
Revatinandana: For their pleasure they're going home to drink beer and eat steak. That's all they're really interested in. They're just working to make money. I could see it and I didn't want to follow their footsteps.
Prabhupada: Just like a sudra, he cleans in the road for money. They are going as professor but the category is the same. You don't make any distinction between that sweeper and this professor. Or a hog and cat and dog. The hog is also working hard, whole day and night for stool, eating. So this man is also working like that. Beyond that he has no other knowledge.
Revatinandana: The scientists, they have a term. Psychologists, they call it the idiot savant. The idiot savant means he's an idiot but he has one particular talent and because of that talent he can get along. Just like sometimes you find an idiot, he can look at a column of figures and he can compute the sum in his head very easily but he can't even understand how to tie his shoes. And I think these scholars are like that, they're actually idiots but they have one talent for Sanskrit or for history and because of that they can get along. They can support their body but otherwise they have no qualifications.
Prabhupada: Sudra. Unless he gets that post, he'll starve. He has got some talent in some particular subject but he must get some service. By serving others, he'll be able to utilize his talent and get some money, then he'll eat. This is sudra's business. Dog's business. Just like a dog unless he has got a nice master, his position is very precarious. A street dog. Nobody will care neither it is (indistinct).
Yogesvara: You point out in Srimad-Bhagavatam that they go to school and learn to become Ph.D., then they have to knock on the door for a job and no one will open the door.
Prabhupada: No vacancy, sir. So just like dog.
Revatinandana: But they have a way to force them to work. The politicians force the scholars.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: If they don't print books, if they don't write a book every now and then and print it, get it published, they lose their tenure, their position as a professor. They must produce one book, then another book, then another book. If they don't, finished. In this way they are working all the time.
Prabhupada: The Marwaris in India, they don't educate their son. Just like Birla. They say, "We can purchase these rascals, why we should waste our time. (laughter) So-called technicians, so-called expert computer, these are... We can purchase, why we shall waste our time."
Hamsaduta: It's the same thing I learned in Germany. First I wanted to get my own press and I studied the situation very carefully and I saw it was ridiculous for us to do that, it's so much hard work. It's much easier to collect the money in the street by giving the magazine and then paying someone. They work very hard and do it. Everything is like that. They have so many people that can do everything. The one thing that people can't do is distribute Krsna consciousness and for that Krsna's giving so much money.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovidah. That verse. Only for this purpose one should endeavor.
Hamsaduta: Yes. Krsna (indistinct) paying for that.
Prabhupada: You cannot purchase Krsna consciousness -- you can have money -- that you have to cultivate.
Revatinandana: Yeah, when Mr. Birla is getting old then he has to come to us, if he has any sense.
Prabhupada: No they say, they simply give primary education (indistinct) they can read, that's all. And (indistinct). They don't send because everyone knows that sending boys to the school means spoil them. That's all. I have seen intelligent boys, they go to school and he is spoiled. Yes, spoiled. He learns how to smoke, how to have sex, how to talk nonsense, how to use knife, how to fight, these things. At least at the present moment. Yes. Simply slaughterhouse, this so-called school is called slaughterhouse. Yes, slaughterhouse.
Revatinandana: It was when I went to school -- I was a nice little boy -- in school I failed out, only (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, you must take as intelligent. That so..., time was wasted. Our, this gurukula should be taken care of very nicely. So nice preachers may come out. Brahmana, nice brahmana.
tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatam upary adhah
tal labhyate duhkhavad anyatah sukham
kalena sarvatra gabhira-ramhasa
[SB 1.5.18]
Revatinandana: I'm still thinking about the other morning, we were talking about how everything is actually spirit. Everything is composed of spiritual atoms actually, souls. We were talking about the...
Prabhupada: That is Vedic version, sarvam khalv idam brahma, everything is Brahman.
Revatinandana: When we speak about the transmigration of the soul, we speak about 8,400,000 species. Does that include the inanimate objects as well, within those 8,400,000?
Prabhupada: Sthavara, sthavara, they are called sthavara, immovable. He means hills, mountains, stones. They are called sthavara. Sthavara, which cannot move.
Revatinandana: So actually we don't really...
Prabhupada: Sthavara laksa-vimsati. Two million types of sthavara.
Revatinandana: So we don't actually discriminate between the tree, and say, the atom, as a living entity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Haribol. Little by little it's becoming clear.
Prabhupada: Sthavara, sthavara means one cannot move, standing. Sthavara-jangama. There are two kinds of living entities. One moving, one not moving.
Yogesvara: But the atom is always in motion. The atoms and molecules are always constantly moving.
Prabhupada: That movement is different. That is not independent movement.
Yogesvara: Is that to say that a stone has a living entity in it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Actually what we discussed is that every, even the elements, the atoms, everything is made of nothing but spirit souls in fallen conditions. Because everything comes from brahmajyoti, which is nothing but spirit souls, and brahmajyoti... Therefore soul never changes. So this manifestation is from brahmajyoti. Therefore, it is made of souls. It is nothing else but spirit souls. Yesterday, a few days ago we discussed that.
Prabhupada: It is simply covered by another energy which is called material energy. And that is maya. Maya means that is not actual, not factual. The example is given, just like the sun is covered by the cloud. The cloud is nothing but another creation of sun. But when the cloud comes, sun is invisible. Similarly this condition, forgetfulness, is my creation and when I am covered by this forgetfulness I become stones and atoms, like that.
Hamsaduta: In Bhagavad-gita, it says that the soul is immovable. In the Second Chapter there is a verse that says the soul is immovable.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: What does that mean exactly? Are we not moving? In that verse it says immovable and...
Prabhupada: Sthanu, means fixed up.
Hamsaduta: You mean its nature is...?
Prabhupada: Unchangeable.
Hamsaduta: Unchangeable. Not that we are not moving. We are moving.
Prabhupada: Might be that word was not properly used. Sthanu, the word is sthanu. If you have got Sanskrit, you know what is the meaning of sthanu. And acalo 'yam, acalo 'yam, yes.
Revatinandana: The point of all those...
Prabhupada: That means acalo 'yam also, so acalo 'yam. Acalo 'yam means that does not move. Sthanur acalo 'yam, in the Bhagavad-gita it is given. You can see. Now there is no time.
Revatinandana: It's time for class. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation -- July 9, 1973, London
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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