Prabhupada: My idea is that if we
can connect this Kristo and Christ, that "love of Godhead," there is some
meaning. Because we, our Krsna consciousness movement means we are teaching
people how to love God. That is our...Mr. Wadell: To love is very difficult,
is it not? It is very difficult.
Prabhupada: No, it is not difficult.
Mr. Wadell: Well, it is both difficult and not difficult.
Prabhupada: No. Everything, there is a Bengali word, yanra karya tare saje, anya loke lati baje. (?) Anything, if one is practiced to do, he can do it very easily. And for others, it is just like striking with a rod. Anya loke lati baje. Suppose if there is some difficulty in electricity, I do not know anything. It will be very, very difficult task for me. But anyone who knows, immediately he connects two wires, there is light. It is simply to know the art.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, I would say with respect, it is easy to feel love for people. It is not always easy to put this love into practice. Sometimes to love, you may have to be hard, apparently hard, to a person if you wish to help them.
Prabhupada: The thing is that we want to love people, we want to help them, but if we do not know the process... The same thing, love or hate. That's it. You should know the process how to love. So our process is according to Vedic injunction, that yatha taror mula-nisecanena trpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopasakhah [SB 4.31.14]. Just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, automatically the branches, the trees, everything, watered. Pranopaharac ca yatendriyanam. If you supply food to the stomach, the energy is distributed to the hands, legs, eyes, and everywhere. This is the process. But if you take the food and separately push on in the eyes and the ears and the hands and the fingers it is useless.
Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I agree, but...
Prabhupada: Similarly, if you try to pour water to each leaf of the tree, it will be simply waste of time. Similarly, God is the root of everything. Our Vedanta-sutra says, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], Absolute Truth, wherefrom everything has come. So if we love the root, God, then we can love others. Otherwise not possible. Otherwise it is simply waste of time. They have tried. The so-called humanitarian work they have tried. Unity and fraternity and so on, big, big words. But it has not come to... Because there is no love of Godhead, it has failed. Even the United Nations. Central point is missing. So our Vedic injunction is that sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje: [SB 1.2.6] "That system of religion is perfect which teaches how to love God." It doesn't matter, Christian religion, Hindu religion, Mohammedan religion, it doesn't matter. But God minus, this is the present position. Everyone wants to make minus God everything. This is going on. They have no clear idea. If I want to love you, I must have a clear idea of you. On vague idea, I cannot love. But they have no clear idea what is God. So how they can love God? And because they have failed to love God, all the so-called love, humanitarian, philanthropic works and, you know, they have become useless.
Mr. Wadell: Yes. The problem is a very big one. We are, perhaps, sent into this earth to know or to learn how to love.
Prabhupada: No. I have got some objection. You cannot begin any scientific statement with the word "perhaps." (W. laughs) We don't accept. You must be assured, you must be assured.
Mr. Wadell: I am merely saying... I do not wish to be presumptuous, if you understand me.
Prabhupada: Well as soon as you say, "perhaps," "maybe," that is not... This has no meaning. Because it is not certain. You have no clear idea.
Mr. Wadell: But are there not things about which in the mortal life one can have no clear idea?
Prabhupada: But if there is clear idea, why they should not take it? Why they should speculate "perhaps," "maybe"?
Mr. Wadell: But there are many things about which I cannot have any clear idea. I cannot...
Prabhupada: No, you cannot have but if you get clear idea, why you do not take it.
Mr. Wadell: No, I mean even in the physical realm. I cannot at this moment conceive what it is like, say, to be in Sydney, in many cities in the world. There are many things, many bits of knowledge which I cannot have. I cannot be everywhere at once. I am here now. I do not even know what is happening in the place from which I have come.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Wadell: And I must accept that. I cannot be certain about that. Would you not agree?
Prabhupada: But if there is a process... Suppose you are not in Sydney, but if there is a radio message from Sydney, how do you accept it?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I'd believe it.
Prabhupada: Then that is a question of belief.
Mr. Wadell: But that is not... Belief is not quite the same thing as...
Prabhupada: No that is not belief; that is fact. Suppose a radio message is coming from Sydney, we accept it-fact. Although I am not in Sydney. So it is a question of process, how to receive the message. If the process is perfect, then the message is perfect.
Mr. Wadell: But one has to believe the...
Prabhupada: Yes, if the process is perfect, one has to believe, one has to believe. Just like I will give you one example: Nobody knows who is his father; neither it is possible to know one's father by speculation. But there is a process. If you ask your mother, and if she: "This gentleman is your father," you accept the process and you get the perfect knowledge.
Mr. Wadell: One could look like one's brother. (laughs)
Prabhupada: What. I do not follow. What is...?
Mr. Wadell: You do not understand?
Syamasundara: Say it again.
Mr. Wadell: I have a brother, who is very like me, and, well, this helps me to believe that I know who my father was.
Prabhupada: No.
Mr. Wadell: In one sense.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. Because one gentleman resembles your features, you think that he is your brother. That is another thing. But here the process that if you want to know who is your father, the process is it should be known through the mother. There is no other process. It is not that suggestion: because somebody resembles my face, he is my father. Not like that. It is the perfect process.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree with what you say. I am just adding another explanation.
Prabhupada: Yes. And you cannot understand your father by any other process. This is the only process. That means things which are unknown, beyond our conception, you have to know it through the authority. Just like you know your father through the authority of your mother.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree. But...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say that things which are beyond our imagination cannot be known. You cannot say that. Can be known, provided you have got the real process.
Mr. Wadell: I'm afraid I must make, so far as I am concerned, a clear division between what I know and what I believe. There are certain things... It is maybe, partly a use of words, but whereas I know that I am here and that I have people in..., I am in the same room with other men...
Prabhupada: Do you think that this process, as I have suggested, to know one's father through the authority of the mother is not perfect?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I think it's as near perfect as you can get.
Prabhupada: Why you say, "as near"? Why still doubt?
Mr. Wadell: Because it is not quite the same thing as my knowing that I am here. There's a famous French philosopher who began all his philosophy from the phrase "I am conscious; therefore I know that I exist." And he deduced everything, you know, starting from here.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. You are conscious, I am conscious, that's a fact. It is not the question of belief. It is not question of belief. Belief may be wrong, but fact is fact.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, agreed.
Prabhupada: So when one's... I say that I am conscious, you say you are conscious. We are conscious. That's a fact. And that consciousness is the symptom of the presence of the soul. Because from the dead body... Dead body means when the soul departs from the body, there is no more consciousness.
Mr. Wadell: This is something on which I think I am probably too young or too..., I have not thought enough about it to be able to tell you very clearly or to define very clearly what I think. This is very difficult I know. But I am conscious that I do not know about this. I can make certain... I mean I am inclined to accept what you say, but I cannot say that I know it.
Prabhupada: Therefore when we are in doubts, therefore we have to refer to the authority. Just like when you are diseased, so you go to the physician, "What is the cause of my this trouble?" Similarly, when you are in doubts, you have to approach an authority to clear the doubts. Otherwise you will remain in doubts, ignorance.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore our Vedic injunction is tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad-vijnanartham, in order to clear the doubt, to be in perfect knowledge, one must approach the authorized bona fide spiritual master.
Mr. Wadell: Can we go back to the physician. It is possible for a physician to be wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes, we are always in wrong because we are born ignorant. Everything is wrong because ignorant, foolish. Madman's conception. This is all wrong, childish. Therefore we send our boys, children, to school, to correct the wrong ideas.
Mr. Wadell: But some of the teachers may not be correct.
Prabhupada: No. The process is you have to go to the teacher. But if the teacher is a cheater, then the whole thing is spoiled. A teacher must be teacher, perfect teacher. But if he happens to be a cheater then the whole thing is spoiled.
Mr. Wadell: But the human situation is often a sort of mixture of the two. Sometimes...
Prabhupada: No, mixture of two, that may be, but the process is that we have to approach the real teacher. Just like I approach the mother. Mother is supposed to be not cheater. But if the mother happens to be a cheater, then I am cheated. I am cheated. I don't get the information of my real father. But it is expected the mother should not cheat.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, oh I know that it is expected of the teachers.
Prabhupada: So it is my misfortune; if I get a cheater mother, then my whole life is spoiled.
Mr. Wadell: But the teacher may be wrong without wishing to be wrong.
Prabhupada: No, he is not teacher. If a teacher is wrong, he is cheater. That is our proposition.
Mr. Wadell: Well, I'm sorry, this is a point which we must surely...
Prabhupada: This is the real point. If you have to go to a teacher, you must go to a real teacher. You don't go to a cheater.
Mr. Wadell: But suppose I teach you something, a subject in which knowledge is not complete.
Prabhupada: Then you should not be teacher. Then you should not be teacher. Then you are cheater.
Mr. Wadell: But... No, because knowledge is...
Prabhupada: That is, that is, that is our... Teacher means... When I approach a teacher, he must be a bona fide teacher. He should not be cheater. If he has no sufficient knowledge, he should not pose himself as a teacher.
Mr. Wadell: Well, I am afraid I would be right out of court cause you see I have often to confess to my pupils that I do not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is going on, but that is not the system. If you do not know, you should not become a teacher. That is our proposition. (laughs)
Mr. Wadell: I see, well I am not at all sure that I could accept what you say. (laughs)
Prabhupada: You must be sure that whatever knowledge you are giving, that is perfect. Then you are teacher.
Mr. Wadell: Well, you see, what you are... In that case, I should have to pretend, you see. I would have to pretend to know something which I did not know at all. Then I should be a cheater, wouldn't I. And that would be wrong. And there must be many things which I do not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is better to become honest. If I do not know anything perfectly I should not be teacher. That is right thing. And if I have got doubtful knowledge, perhaps, maybe, why shall I be teacher. I should, "No, no I cannot teach. The subject is unknown." That is our process.
Mr. Wadell: Yes. I must say that I, there are many things of which I haven't got knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is going on. That is going on. Therefore people are misled.
Mr. Wadell: No. I would mislead them more if I said that I knew.
Prabhupada: No. No, no. If you do not know, why should you say you knew? That is another cheating.
Mr. Wadell: How do you mean?
Prabhupada: If... When you know...
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I don't pretend. If I know something, I say I know, but...
Prabhupada: Then you say that..., you say, "I know."
Mr. Wadell: But when I do not know something then I admit that I do not know it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That admission, that's all right. But in that case, one should not take the post of the teacher. That is our Vedic injunction. One must know perfectly.
Mr. Wadell: You may well be right. (laughter) But actually, I think there are many things which, about which knowledge is changing. There are things...
Prabhupada: That means cheating.
Mr. Wadell: I see you have here, certain bits of equipment which didn't exist...
Prabhupada: That is described in the Vedic literature: andha yathandhair upaniyamanah: [SB 7.5.31] "A blind man is trying to lead other blind men."
Mr. Wadell: I suspect that that is as probably very near to the truth of human situation...
Prabhupada: Yes. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. What is the benefit? If I am blind and if there are hundreds of blind men, "All right, come on, I shall..."
Mr. Wadell: I think we are all partially blind.
Prabhupada: No, then there is no question of knowledge. Somebody must be with eyes. He can give knowledge. That is our proposition. As soon as you say blind, there must be somebody with eyes. It is a relative term. It is a relative term. You cannot say, "all are blind." Then there is no question of blind and with men eyes. As soon as you accept blind man, you must accept the other side, man with eyes.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I see. You mean just as you distinguish from white, black because it is different...
Prabhupada: Yes, this is relative world.
Mr. Wadell: I agree, but I am using this in, as an example, not as an absolute description. I think my view -- may I explain this -- of the whole of which I am, as I say, I think, an imperfect part, a part which is trying to learn something which I am not even quite sure what it is that I am trying to learn...
Prabhupada: No, no, this is... You are perfect gentleman, means that you say that "I am imperfect." That is nice. But our point is that from imperfect man, imperfect knowledge is received. We cannot expect perfect knowledge from imperfect man.
Mr. Wadell: No. But where does your perfect knowledge come from and how do you recognize it?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is very important point, where to get the perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Therefore the Vedas says, gurum eva abhigacchet: "You go to a guru." "Guru" means heavy, who knows better than you, or who knows perfect. That is injunction.
Mr. Wadell: But, you see, this is...
Prabhupada: We have to find out, we have to find out who can give the perfect knowledge.
Mr. Wadell: How do you know that you know? May I ask this? (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Mr. Wadell: This is the point which, I would find, you know, without disrespect, this is something which is very difficult, whatever kind of faith you have.
Prabhupada: It is not the question of faith. Faith may be wrong, belief may be wrong. That perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect source. So God is perfect. God is perfect. And one who follows the path of God, he is also perfect.
Mr. Wadell: But he is different from God, is he not?
Prabhupada: Maybe. Just like...
Mr. Wadell: But this is important to me. Can, can...?
Prabhupada: The same process. The mother gives the perfect knowledge, and the son receives the knowledge. So the knowledge received from the mother by the son is perfect. The son may not be perfect, but because he has received the knowledge from the mother, which is perfect, therefore he is perfect.
Mr. Wadell: In what respect do you consider yourself different from God?
Prabhupada: Do you think I am also equal with God?
Mr. Wadell: If you, what I want to know is what you feel your relationship to God is.
Prabhupada: My relationship is just like father and the son. The son is not different from the father; at the same time, he is different from the father.
Mr. Wadell: Yes...
Prabhupada: The same relationship. We are all sons of God. Therefore, simultaneously, we are one and different. As son, the ingredient, the same. But he is father, we are son, we are different. This is called the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda. Bheda means different, and abheda means one. So simultaneously one and different.
Mr. Wadell: May I ask you another question, which is, I have a mortal father, a man, who you know my parents, father and mother. Do you think that my father is in any way different in his parentage of me from God in His parentage of me.
Prabhupada: No, everyone. Not only your father, your grandfather, your, or grandson, the same relationship: simultaneously one and different... Because we are spirit soul and God is the supreme soul. All the souls have come, emanated from Him. He is the supreme soul and Paramatma. The exact word used in the Vedic language, Paramatma, Parabrahma, Paramesvara. This word param. Param means supreme.
Mr. Wadell: I accept that without any trouble. There's no...
Prabhupada: The difference is God... In the Vedas it is stated that God is just like a person like you and me. Just like we are persons, we are talking face to face, similarly, God is also a person. But... We are also persons. But what is the difference between these two classes of persons.
Mr. Wadell: Exactly.
Prabhupada: Yes, the difference is eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. God is the maintainer, the supplier of all necessities of the so many persons. That is God.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, I accept that.
Prabhupada: This is the difference. We are maintained, and He is maintainer. That is difference. Otherwise, God is also person, I am also person. One is maintainer and others, the plural number, they are maintained. In the Christian religion also, the same idea is: "God give us our daily bread," maintenance. So that is the difference. He is the bread supplier, and we are bread eater. That's all.
Mr. Wadell: He doesn't supply his bread to everybody unless...
Prabhupada: Everybody, yes, everybody. Beginning...
Mr. Wadell: People die, do they not?
Prabhupada: Die, that is another thing. People die even if he has got many things to eat, still he dies. Can you check it? That does not depend on eating. There are many men. They are dying. Although they are...
Mr. Wadell: I am taking you too literally. Let us forget about that point. It's not worthwhile.
Prabhupada: No, no, because you say, "They are dying, God is not supplying," that is a mistaken idea. God is supplying. God is supplying. He is dying natural death. It is not that because there is want of supply, therefore he is dying. That is a mistaken idea. Death is not dependent on supply of food. There are so many other causes.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree about that, but you cannot...
Prabhupada: And death is inevitable. Even if you have sufficient to eat, you cannot avoid death. So death is inevitable. That is the problem of material life. Birth, death, old age and disease. So you cannot avoid it. So long you are materially existing. This can be avoided when you are spiritually elevated. That is our movement.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, you cannot live without... You do not, as we say, live by bread alone. And in that sense -- it may be the sense in which you wish me to take -- the sense, what you are saying, that God supplies bread, because bread could be both bread for the spirit or soul...
Prabhupada: No, bread is material. Bread is material. To maintain your material body, you require material bread. But spiritual body does not depend on material bread.
Mr. Wadell: Could we go back to the relationship between you or all of us and God? What my own experience has suggested to me is that the language which I use and the language which has been used by others to describe what we think Him to be is not really capable of accomplishing this very difficult task. It is an impossible task in fact because we are describing something which is so immeasurably greater, more difficult to understand fully. We can have a relationship, but I find it, the language which we use, is of...
Prabhupada: Insufficient.
Mr. Wadell: ...of mortal things which are in our experience, and we apply those to something beyond the purely mortal realm, and sometimes the descriptions we use are to be taken only to a certain extent. They are useful as illustrations but they are not to be taken as necessarily a fact. I think this has misled many people when they think about God, that we use a description and it's rather like what we talked about to begin with, the question of names.
Prabhupada: Question of?
Mr. Wadell: Names. Yes, I wrote my name for my friend here, and we joked as we came in about how this name should be pronounced. And, of course, it depends how people, how well people know me, which name would apply to me. But I want to go one further than that and I want to say that to know a name or a large number of facts and to be able to make a large number of statements about people is not the same as really knowing this person. And this is our difficulty as I see it in relating ourselves to God, that although we make many statements about Him which are often picturesque ones. We say that He is almighty, that He can, in our religion, move mountains or all sorts of separate statements like that. If you take all those statements together, they wouldn't really describe him at all sufficiently.
Prabhupada: Now, suppose one man is engineer. So if I address him "Mr. engineer," what is the wrong?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, there is nothing wrong so long as you...
Prabhupada: No, this particular name, when I give to him, what is the wrong?
Mr. Wadell: The only thing is that it is not complete.
Prabhupada: Why not? That "engineer" word completes his situation. He is engineer.
Mr. Wadell: Well, you might say to me, "Teacher," but that would not be complete. That would not be a complete description
Prabhupada: No, it is complete.
Mr. Wadell: It is true, but it is not complete.
Prabhupada: But when it is true, it is complete.
Mr. Wadell: I don't think so. You see, I could... If I say, "This wall is white," that is a true statement, but it is not a complete statement. Because this wall is not like all white walls. There are many white walls which have not got curves in the corners or decoration at that particular point. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
Prabhupada: But when... Just like when we say God, Krsna, this word conveys the meaning "all-attractive." So what is the wrong? This Krsna means all-attractive. So unless God is all-attractive, how He can become God? It is not that God is for me God. God is for you also. God is for him also. Therefore He must be all-attractive. This is perfect...
Mr. Wadell: But not necessarily in the same way. Because....
Prabhupada: No. Just to understand what is God, if you try to understand in this way that "God is good," "God is all-attractive," is it not perfect?
Mr. Wadell: It is a partial statement.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Wadell: But it doesn't tell me...
Prabhupada: But then, when you go deep into the matter, you understand more and more. In the beginning...
Mr. Wadell: But you will never, I suspect, here on earth understand...
Prabhupada: No, no, that suspicion I have already answered...
Mr. Wadell: Not for me, you haven't.
Prabhupada: ...that you have to go through a process, right process. Then there will be no suspicion. The same example. But if you do not go through the process you will be always suspicious.
Mr. Wadell: When I say, "suspect," what I mean is not anything bad.
Prabhupada: No, no, I know that.
Mr. Wadell: You understand that all I mean is that I am not sure about this. I think it may be true. I'm not sure.
Prabhupada: That suspicion will continue unless you take the right process.
Mr. Wadell: But there are, I do not think that this God gave me my mind with my eyes and my sight, hearing, all these factors of the senses, and the intellect and the soul, if we are correctly speaking when we speak of it as something independently existing...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Mr. Wadell: He did not expect me, I'm sure, not... to reject questions. In my religion, my, must be just as much a part of me as all that my intellect tells me. There must be no question which my religion cannot stand up to.
Prabhupada: First of all you say that God has given you the intellect. He can withdraw it also.
Mr. Wadell: Well, we say not, because...
Prabhupada: Why not? If He has given, He can withdraw also.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I don't... Well, we have a rather strange view of God...
Prabhupada: No, you may have strange view. We are arguing. As soon as you say God has given you intellect, He can withdraw also your intellect.
Mr. Wadell: But you see, what we have also to explain -- why all men are not good. Now, if God chose, He could force all men to be good, but that is not the way.
Prabhupada: No, God has given you intellect to become good, but because you disobey God, you have become bad.
Mr. Wadell: But if God is all-powerful and He cared to use His power...
Prabhupada: No, He does not interfere with your little independence.
Mr. Wadell: This is the point which you were trying to...
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita God says that "You surrender unto Me." That means, "If you like, you surrender." God is not forcing, "you must." He is not forcing.
Mr. Wadell: Well, that's exactly what I meant. We are agreed. And...
Prabhupada: Yes. So that He does not do. Otherwise, otherwise, there is no meaning of being part and parcel of God. God is fully independent, and we are minute part of God. Therefore we have got independence. That independence is minute, but there is. So if God interferes with your independence, then you are no longer part and parcel of God. Therefore God says that "You do this." Now, I misuse my independence. I do not do it. Therefore I am bad.
Mr. Wadell: Our positions do not differ on this point. We think exactly the same.
Prabhupada: Yes. We do not do it. Just like your father says, "My dear son, do like this," but you disobey. Therefore you are bad son. So my badness is creation of my misuse of independence.
Mr. Wadell: Yes. But it may not be entirely willful.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because God has given you the intelligence, and as I said, He can withdraw. Just like the same thing: The father said, "My dear son, do like this." But he is persisting in doing otherwise.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, and for the same reason that He would not force, would therefore, for the same reason, not withdraw my intellect, having given it to me.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is stated, that is stated, that is stated. Just like I... Withdraw my intellect means I have given you the intellect that "You do like this." but you are persistent, doing otherwise, "All right, as you like, you do." This is withdrawal.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, but one may be...
Prabhupada: There is no force. There is no force.
Mr. Wadell: No, no. But what I want to go back to is the reason for disobedience. There are various possible ones. One may first not know what one is supposed to do. Secondly... Is that all right? Do you agree about that?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We do not know anything. We are to be considered all fools and rascals. That is our position. As soon as we come to this material world, accept a material body, we are all fools and rascals.
Mr. Wadell: Do you accept the whole of the material world? Do you think there are some things in it which are wrong?
Prabhupada: Just like as soon as you come to the prison house, you are all criminals. You may be very intelligent, but because you are in the prison house, you are criminal. Because you are in the prison house, that is the proof that you are a criminal. You may be very intelligent man.
Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I'm not claiming... I haven't any claim to goodness. You must understand that.
Prabhupada: Similarly, any living entity, any living entity who is originally part and parcel of God, God is all-good, therefore the part and parcel of God is also all-good. But as soon as comes to the material world, he [break] As exactly like the same, that as soon as one is put into the prison wall, within, he is a criminal. Now he has to undergo the criminal laws. Similarly, because we have come to this material world, we have to undergo the material tribulations. We cannot avoid.
Mr. Wadell: Well this is a very long... We are now on a topic on which I should have to require or ask, if I put it more politely, much more time than I have. Now, I am a person with responsibility to my boys. I must go now and say our prayers in the Christian way, which...
Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice.
Mr. Wadell: ...Well, we profess up there, which not all believe, but some do, and they must be given their chance. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, that is nice.
Mr. Wadell: Will you please excuse me at this moment. I would very much like to come back and pursue this.
Prabhupada: Yes, you come often. Yes, you are welcome. Yes.
Mr. Wadell: If you feel it is of any interest or value to you.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes, After 4 o'clock you can come. You are welcome.
Syamasundara: You can come any night after 4 pm.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, well, we have a very busy week, because, as I say, we are correcting papers, we are ending our term.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, you must be busy.
Mr. Wadell: But what we are talking about is something which doesn't change from today or tomorrow or yesterday. So when these things have been done, perhaps next week, I will come down.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, you are welcome. I want that responsible persons like you should try to understand the scientific value of this movement. It is not a sentimental movement. It is based on philosophy, science, authority.
Mr. Wadell: Well, it's on this question of authority, in a sense, that we would have the greatest difficulty. But another time, please.
Prabhupada: Well, every religion is authority. That's a fact.
Mr. Wadell: It is, yes. That's true. But every individual is free and must find for themselves.
Prabhupada: No, we, we... Our proposition is, our proposition is that sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. "That is first-class religion which teaches the followers how to love God." This is our proposal.
Mr. Wadell: Well, we shall see. We have a lot to... (laughs) It is quite possible that I too have been sent.
Prabhupada: Yes. Give him some prasada. Just wait little. Take prasadam. Our only fighting is against atheism, godlessness. This is our main fight.
Mr. Wadell: I agree.
Prabhupada: Yes. People say, "There is no God, God is dead. This is all humbug." And so many there are, atheistic proposals. We are giving fight against this atheism.
Mr. Wadell: Will you excuse me. I must go.
Pradyumna: He's just bringing little...
Mukunda: We are just bringing you a little prasadam.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, no, no, I must. I have my boys. They wait for me and I must be with them. (laughter)
Prabhupada: There is some prasadam.
Syamasundara: He is teacher just down the road in the school.
Prabhupada: You take little this. Yes. Just take little.
Mr. Wadell: May I take just.
Prabhupada: Just little. I am not giving you much. (lots of laughter)
Mr. Wadell: Oh, it's very good. Just a little.
Prabhupada: It is very good, tasteful.
Mr. Wadell: Thank you.
Prabhupada: All right. (end)
Prabhupada: No, it is not difficult.
Mr. Wadell: Well, it is both difficult and not difficult.
Prabhupada: No. Everything, there is a Bengali word, yanra karya tare saje, anya loke lati baje. (?) Anything, if one is practiced to do, he can do it very easily. And for others, it is just like striking with a rod. Anya loke lati baje. Suppose if there is some difficulty in electricity, I do not know anything. It will be very, very difficult task for me. But anyone who knows, immediately he connects two wires, there is light. It is simply to know the art.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, I would say with respect, it is easy to feel love for people. It is not always easy to put this love into practice. Sometimes to love, you may have to be hard, apparently hard, to a person if you wish to help them.
Prabhupada: The thing is that we want to love people, we want to help them, but if we do not know the process... The same thing, love or hate. That's it. You should know the process how to love. So our process is according to Vedic injunction, that yatha taror mula-nisecanena trpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopasakhah [SB 4.31.14]. Just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, automatically the branches, the trees, everything, watered. Pranopaharac ca yatendriyanam. If you supply food to the stomach, the energy is distributed to the hands, legs, eyes, and everywhere. This is the process. But if you take the food and separately push on in the eyes and the ears and the hands and the fingers it is useless.
Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I agree, but...
Prabhupada: Similarly, if you try to pour water to each leaf of the tree, it will be simply waste of time. Similarly, God is the root of everything. Our Vedanta-sutra says, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], Absolute Truth, wherefrom everything has come. So if we love the root, God, then we can love others. Otherwise not possible. Otherwise it is simply waste of time. They have tried. The so-called humanitarian work they have tried. Unity and fraternity and so on, big, big words. But it has not come to... Because there is no love of Godhead, it has failed. Even the United Nations. Central point is missing. So our Vedic injunction is that sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje: [SB 1.2.6] "That system of religion is perfect which teaches how to love God." It doesn't matter, Christian religion, Hindu religion, Mohammedan religion, it doesn't matter. But God minus, this is the present position. Everyone wants to make minus God everything. This is going on. They have no clear idea. If I want to love you, I must have a clear idea of you. On vague idea, I cannot love. But they have no clear idea what is God. So how they can love God? And because they have failed to love God, all the so-called love, humanitarian, philanthropic works and, you know, they have become useless.
Mr. Wadell: Yes. The problem is a very big one. We are, perhaps, sent into this earth to know or to learn how to love.
Prabhupada: No. I have got some objection. You cannot begin any scientific statement with the word "perhaps." (W. laughs) We don't accept. You must be assured, you must be assured.
Mr. Wadell: I am merely saying... I do not wish to be presumptuous, if you understand me.
Prabhupada: Well as soon as you say, "perhaps," "maybe," that is not... This has no meaning. Because it is not certain. You have no clear idea.
Mr. Wadell: But are there not things about which in the mortal life one can have no clear idea?
Prabhupada: But if there is clear idea, why they should not take it? Why they should speculate "perhaps," "maybe"?
Mr. Wadell: But there are many things about which I cannot have any clear idea. I cannot...
Prabhupada: No, you cannot have but if you get clear idea, why you do not take it.
Mr. Wadell: No, I mean even in the physical realm. I cannot at this moment conceive what it is like, say, to be in Sydney, in many cities in the world. There are many things, many bits of knowledge which I cannot have. I cannot be everywhere at once. I am here now. I do not even know what is happening in the place from which I have come.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Wadell: And I must accept that. I cannot be certain about that. Would you not agree?
Prabhupada: But if there is a process... Suppose you are not in Sydney, but if there is a radio message from Sydney, how do you accept it?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I'd believe it.
Prabhupada: Then that is a question of belief.
Mr. Wadell: But that is not... Belief is not quite the same thing as...
Prabhupada: No that is not belief; that is fact. Suppose a radio message is coming from Sydney, we accept it-fact. Although I am not in Sydney. So it is a question of process, how to receive the message. If the process is perfect, then the message is perfect.
Mr. Wadell: But one has to believe the...
Prabhupada: Yes, if the process is perfect, one has to believe, one has to believe. Just like I will give you one example: Nobody knows who is his father; neither it is possible to know one's father by speculation. But there is a process. If you ask your mother, and if she: "This gentleman is your father," you accept the process and you get the perfect knowledge.
Mr. Wadell: One could look like one's brother. (laughs)
Prabhupada: What. I do not follow. What is...?
Mr. Wadell: You do not understand?
Syamasundara: Say it again.
Mr. Wadell: I have a brother, who is very like me, and, well, this helps me to believe that I know who my father was.
Prabhupada: No.
Mr. Wadell: In one sense.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. Because one gentleman resembles your features, you think that he is your brother. That is another thing. But here the process that if you want to know who is your father, the process is it should be known through the mother. There is no other process. It is not that suggestion: because somebody resembles my face, he is my father. Not like that. It is the perfect process.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree with what you say. I am just adding another explanation.
Prabhupada: Yes. And you cannot understand your father by any other process. This is the only process. That means things which are unknown, beyond our conception, you have to know it through the authority. Just like you know your father through the authority of your mother.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree. But...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say that things which are beyond our imagination cannot be known. You cannot say that. Can be known, provided you have got the real process.
Mr. Wadell: I'm afraid I must make, so far as I am concerned, a clear division between what I know and what I believe. There are certain things... It is maybe, partly a use of words, but whereas I know that I am here and that I have people in..., I am in the same room with other men...
Prabhupada: Do you think that this process, as I have suggested, to know one's father through the authority of the mother is not perfect?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I think it's as near perfect as you can get.
Prabhupada: Why you say, "as near"? Why still doubt?
Mr. Wadell: Because it is not quite the same thing as my knowing that I am here. There's a famous French philosopher who began all his philosophy from the phrase "I am conscious; therefore I know that I exist." And he deduced everything, you know, starting from here.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. You are conscious, I am conscious, that's a fact. It is not the question of belief. It is not question of belief. Belief may be wrong, but fact is fact.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, agreed.
Prabhupada: So when one's... I say that I am conscious, you say you are conscious. We are conscious. That's a fact. And that consciousness is the symptom of the presence of the soul. Because from the dead body... Dead body means when the soul departs from the body, there is no more consciousness.
Mr. Wadell: This is something on which I think I am probably too young or too..., I have not thought enough about it to be able to tell you very clearly or to define very clearly what I think. This is very difficult I know. But I am conscious that I do not know about this. I can make certain... I mean I am inclined to accept what you say, but I cannot say that I know it.
Prabhupada: Therefore when we are in doubts, therefore we have to refer to the authority. Just like when you are diseased, so you go to the physician, "What is the cause of my this trouble?" Similarly, when you are in doubts, you have to approach an authority to clear the doubts. Otherwise you will remain in doubts, ignorance.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore our Vedic injunction is tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad-vijnanartham, in order to clear the doubt, to be in perfect knowledge, one must approach the authorized bona fide spiritual master.
Mr. Wadell: Can we go back to the physician. It is possible for a physician to be wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes, we are always in wrong because we are born ignorant. Everything is wrong because ignorant, foolish. Madman's conception. This is all wrong, childish. Therefore we send our boys, children, to school, to correct the wrong ideas.
Mr. Wadell: But some of the teachers may not be correct.
Prabhupada: No. The process is you have to go to the teacher. But if the teacher is a cheater, then the whole thing is spoiled. A teacher must be teacher, perfect teacher. But if he happens to be a cheater then the whole thing is spoiled.
Mr. Wadell: But the human situation is often a sort of mixture of the two. Sometimes...
Prabhupada: No, mixture of two, that may be, but the process is that we have to approach the real teacher. Just like I approach the mother. Mother is supposed to be not cheater. But if the mother happens to be a cheater, then I am cheated. I am cheated. I don't get the information of my real father. But it is expected the mother should not cheat.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, oh I know that it is expected of the teachers.
Prabhupada: So it is my misfortune; if I get a cheater mother, then my whole life is spoiled.
Mr. Wadell: But the teacher may be wrong without wishing to be wrong.
Prabhupada: No, he is not teacher. If a teacher is wrong, he is cheater. That is our proposition.
Mr. Wadell: Well, I'm sorry, this is a point which we must surely...
Prabhupada: This is the real point. If you have to go to a teacher, you must go to a real teacher. You don't go to a cheater.
Mr. Wadell: But suppose I teach you something, a subject in which knowledge is not complete.
Prabhupada: Then you should not be teacher. Then you should not be teacher. Then you are cheater.
Mr. Wadell: But... No, because knowledge is...
Prabhupada: That is, that is, that is our... Teacher means... When I approach a teacher, he must be a bona fide teacher. He should not be cheater. If he has no sufficient knowledge, he should not pose himself as a teacher.
Mr. Wadell: Well, I am afraid I would be right out of court cause you see I have often to confess to my pupils that I do not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is going on, but that is not the system. If you do not know, you should not become a teacher. That is our proposition. (laughs)
Mr. Wadell: I see, well I am not at all sure that I could accept what you say. (laughs)
Prabhupada: You must be sure that whatever knowledge you are giving, that is perfect. Then you are teacher.
Mr. Wadell: Well, you see, what you are... In that case, I should have to pretend, you see. I would have to pretend to know something which I did not know at all. Then I should be a cheater, wouldn't I. And that would be wrong. And there must be many things which I do not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is better to become honest. If I do not know anything perfectly I should not be teacher. That is right thing. And if I have got doubtful knowledge, perhaps, maybe, why shall I be teacher. I should, "No, no I cannot teach. The subject is unknown." That is our process.
Mr. Wadell: Yes. I must say that I, there are many things of which I haven't got knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is going on. That is going on. Therefore people are misled.
Mr. Wadell: No. I would mislead them more if I said that I knew.
Prabhupada: No. No, no. If you do not know, why should you say you knew? That is another cheating.
Mr. Wadell: How do you mean?
Prabhupada: If... When you know...
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I don't pretend. If I know something, I say I know, but...
Prabhupada: Then you say that..., you say, "I know."
Mr. Wadell: But when I do not know something then I admit that I do not know it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That admission, that's all right. But in that case, one should not take the post of the teacher. That is our Vedic injunction. One must know perfectly.
Mr. Wadell: You may well be right. (laughter) But actually, I think there are many things which, about which knowledge is changing. There are things...
Prabhupada: That means cheating.
Mr. Wadell: I see you have here, certain bits of equipment which didn't exist...
Prabhupada: That is described in the Vedic literature: andha yathandhair upaniyamanah: [SB 7.5.31] "A blind man is trying to lead other blind men."
Mr. Wadell: I suspect that that is as probably very near to the truth of human situation...
Prabhupada: Yes. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. What is the benefit? If I am blind and if there are hundreds of blind men, "All right, come on, I shall..."
Mr. Wadell: I think we are all partially blind.
Prabhupada: No, then there is no question of knowledge. Somebody must be with eyes. He can give knowledge. That is our proposition. As soon as you say blind, there must be somebody with eyes. It is a relative term. It is a relative term. You cannot say, "all are blind." Then there is no question of blind and with men eyes. As soon as you accept blind man, you must accept the other side, man with eyes.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I see. You mean just as you distinguish from white, black because it is different...
Prabhupada: Yes, this is relative world.
Mr. Wadell: I agree, but I am using this in, as an example, not as an absolute description. I think my view -- may I explain this -- of the whole of which I am, as I say, I think, an imperfect part, a part which is trying to learn something which I am not even quite sure what it is that I am trying to learn...
Prabhupada: No, no, this is... You are perfect gentleman, means that you say that "I am imperfect." That is nice. But our point is that from imperfect man, imperfect knowledge is received. We cannot expect perfect knowledge from imperfect man.
Mr. Wadell: No. But where does your perfect knowledge come from and how do you recognize it?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is very important point, where to get the perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Therefore the Vedas says, gurum eva abhigacchet: "You go to a guru." "Guru" means heavy, who knows better than you, or who knows perfect. That is injunction.
Mr. Wadell: But, you see, this is...
Prabhupada: We have to find out, we have to find out who can give the perfect knowledge.
Mr. Wadell: How do you know that you know? May I ask this? (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Mr. Wadell: This is the point which, I would find, you know, without disrespect, this is something which is very difficult, whatever kind of faith you have.
Prabhupada: It is not the question of faith. Faith may be wrong, belief may be wrong. That perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect source. So God is perfect. God is perfect. And one who follows the path of God, he is also perfect.
Mr. Wadell: But he is different from God, is he not?
Prabhupada: Maybe. Just like...
Mr. Wadell: But this is important to me. Can, can...?
Prabhupada: The same process. The mother gives the perfect knowledge, and the son receives the knowledge. So the knowledge received from the mother by the son is perfect. The son may not be perfect, but because he has received the knowledge from the mother, which is perfect, therefore he is perfect.
Mr. Wadell: In what respect do you consider yourself different from God?
Prabhupada: Do you think I am also equal with God?
Mr. Wadell: If you, what I want to know is what you feel your relationship to God is.
Prabhupada: My relationship is just like father and the son. The son is not different from the father; at the same time, he is different from the father.
Mr. Wadell: Yes...
Prabhupada: The same relationship. We are all sons of God. Therefore, simultaneously, we are one and different. As son, the ingredient, the same. But he is father, we are son, we are different. This is called the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda. Bheda means different, and abheda means one. So simultaneously one and different.
Mr. Wadell: May I ask you another question, which is, I have a mortal father, a man, who you know my parents, father and mother. Do you think that my father is in any way different in his parentage of me from God in His parentage of me.
Prabhupada: No, everyone. Not only your father, your grandfather, your, or grandson, the same relationship: simultaneously one and different... Because we are spirit soul and God is the supreme soul. All the souls have come, emanated from Him. He is the supreme soul and Paramatma. The exact word used in the Vedic language, Paramatma, Parabrahma, Paramesvara. This word param. Param means supreme.
Mr. Wadell: I accept that without any trouble. There's no...
Prabhupada: The difference is God... In the Vedas it is stated that God is just like a person like you and me. Just like we are persons, we are talking face to face, similarly, God is also a person. But... We are also persons. But what is the difference between these two classes of persons.
Mr. Wadell: Exactly.
Prabhupada: Yes, the difference is eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. God is the maintainer, the supplier of all necessities of the so many persons. That is God.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, I accept that.
Prabhupada: This is the difference. We are maintained, and He is maintainer. That is difference. Otherwise, God is also person, I am also person. One is maintainer and others, the plural number, they are maintained. In the Christian religion also, the same idea is: "God give us our daily bread," maintenance. So that is the difference. He is the bread supplier, and we are bread eater. That's all.
Mr. Wadell: He doesn't supply his bread to everybody unless...
Prabhupada: Everybody, yes, everybody. Beginning...
Mr. Wadell: People die, do they not?
Prabhupada: Die, that is another thing. People die even if he has got many things to eat, still he dies. Can you check it? That does not depend on eating. There are many men. They are dying. Although they are...
Mr. Wadell: I am taking you too literally. Let us forget about that point. It's not worthwhile.
Prabhupada: No, no, because you say, "They are dying, God is not supplying," that is a mistaken idea. God is supplying. God is supplying. He is dying natural death. It is not that because there is want of supply, therefore he is dying. That is a mistaken idea. Death is not dependent on supply of food. There are so many other causes.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree about that, but you cannot...
Prabhupada: And death is inevitable. Even if you have sufficient to eat, you cannot avoid death. So death is inevitable. That is the problem of material life. Birth, death, old age and disease. So you cannot avoid it. So long you are materially existing. This can be avoided when you are spiritually elevated. That is our movement.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, you cannot live without... You do not, as we say, live by bread alone. And in that sense -- it may be the sense in which you wish me to take -- the sense, what you are saying, that God supplies bread, because bread could be both bread for the spirit or soul...
Prabhupada: No, bread is material. Bread is material. To maintain your material body, you require material bread. But spiritual body does not depend on material bread.
Mr. Wadell: Could we go back to the relationship between you or all of us and God? What my own experience has suggested to me is that the language which I use and the language which has been used by others to describe what we think Him to be is not really capable of accomplishing this very difficult task. It is an impossible task in fact because we are describing something which is so immeasurably greater, more difficult to understand fully. We can have a relationship, but I find it, the language which we use, is of...
Prabhupada: Insufficient.
Mr. Wadell: ...of mortal things which are in our experience, and we apply those to something beyond the purely mortal realm, and sometimes the descriptions we use are to be taken only to a certain extent. They are useful as illustrations but they are not to be taken as necessarily a fact. I think this has misled many people when they think about God, that we use a description and it's rather like what we talked about to begin with, the question of names.
Prabhupada: Question of?
Mr. Wadell: Names. Yes, I wrote my name for my friend here, and we joked as we came in about how this name should be pronounced. And, of course, it depends how people, how well people know me, which name would apply to me. But I want to go one further than that and I want to say that to know a name or a large number of facts and to be able to make a large number of statements about people is not the same as really knowing this person. And this is our difficulty as I see it in relating ourselves to God, that although we make many statements about Him which are often picturesque ones. We say that He is almighty, that He can, in our religion, move mountains or all sorts of separate statements like that. If you take all those statements together, they wouldn't really describe him at all sufficiently.
Prabhupada: Now, suppose one man is engineer. So if I address him "Mr. engineer," what is the wrong?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, there is nothing wrong so long as you...
Prabhupada: No, this particular name, when I give to him, what is the wrong?
Mr. Wadell: The only thing is that it is not complete.
Prabhupada: Why not? That "engineer" word completes his situation. He is engineer.
Mr. Wadell: Well, you might say to me, "Teacher," but that would not be complete. That would not be a complete description
Prabhupada: No, it is complete.
Mr. Wadell: It is true, but it is not complete.
Prabhupada: But when it is true, it is complete.
Mr. Wadell: I don't think so. You see, I could... If I say, "This wall is white," that is a true statement, but it is not a complete statement. Because this wall is not like all white walls. There are many white walls which have not got curves in the corners or decoration at that particular point. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
Prabhupada: But when... Just like when we say God, Krsna, this word conveys the meaning "all-attractive." So what is the wrong? This Krsna means all-attractive. So unless God is all-attractive, how He can become God? It is not that God is for me God. God is for you also. God is for him also. Therefore He must be all-attractive. This is perfect...
Mr. Wadell: But not necessarily in the same way. Because....
Prabhupada: No. Just to understand what is God, if you try to understand in this way that "God is good," "God is all-attractive," is it not perfect?
Mr. Wadell: It is a partial statement.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Wadell: But it doesn't tell me...
Prabhupada: But then, when you go deep into the matter, you understand more and more. In the beginning...
Mr. Wadell: But you will never, I suspect, here on earth understand...
Prabhupada: No, no, that suspicion I have already answered...
Mr. Wadell: Not for me, you haven't.
Prabhupada: ...that you have to go through a process, right process. Then there will be no suspicion. The same example. But if you do not go through the process you will be always suspicious.
Mr. Wadell: When I say, "suspect," what I mean is not anything bad.
Prabhupada: No, no, I know that.
Mr. Wadell: You understand that all I mean is that I am not sure about this. I think it may be true. I'm not sure.
Prabhupada: That suspicion will continue unless you take the right process.
Mr. Wadell: But there are, I do not think that this God gave me my mind with my eyes and my sight, hearing, all these factors of the senses, and the intellect and the soul, if we are correctly speaking when we speak of it as something independently existing...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Mr. Wadell: He did not expect me, I'm sure, not... to reject questions. In my religion, my, must be just as much a part of me as all that my intellect tells me. There must be no question which my religion cannot stand up to.
Prabhupada: First of all you say that God has given you the intellect. He can withdraw it also.
Mr. Wadell: Well, we say not, because...
Prabhupada: Why not? If He has given, He can withdraw also.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I don't... Well, we have a rather strange view of God...
Prabhupada: No, you may have strange view. We are arguing. As soon as you say God has given you intellect, He can withdraw also your intellect.
Mr. Wadell: But you see, what we have also to explain -- why all men are not good. Now, if God chose, He could force all men to be good, but that is not the way.
Prabhupada: No, God has given you intellect to become good, but because you disobey God, you have become bad.
Mr. Wadell: But if God is all-powerful and He cared to use His power...
Prabhupada: No, He does not interfere with your little independence.
Mr. Wadell: This is the point which you were trying to...
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita God says that "You surrender unto Me." That means, "If you like, you surrender." God is not forcing, "you must." He is not forcing.
Mr. Wadell: Well, that's exactly what I meant. We are agreed. And...
Prabhupada: Yes. So that He does not do. Otherwise, otherwise, there is no meaning of being part and parcel of God. God is fully independent, and we are minute part of God. Therefore we have got independence. That independence is minute, but there is. So if God interferes with your independence, then you are no longer part and parcel of God. Therefore God says that "You do this." Now, I misuse my independence. I do not do it. Therefore I am bad.
Mr. Wadell: Our positions do not differ on this point. We think exactly the same.
Prabhupada: Yes. We do not do it. Just like your father says, "My dear son, do like this," but you disobey. Therefore you are bad son. So my badness is creation of my misuse of independence.
Mr. Wadell: Yes. But it may not be entirely willful.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because God has given you the intelligence, and as I said, He can withdraw. Just like the same thing: The father said, "My dear son, do like this." But he is persisting in doing otherwise.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, and for the same reason that He would not force, would therefore, for the same reason, not withdraw my intellect, having given it to me.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is stated, that is stated, that is stated. Just like I... Withdraw my intellect means I have given you the intellect that "You do like this." but you are persistent, doing otherwise, "All right, as you like, you do." This is withdrawal.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, but one may be...
Prabhupada: There is no force. There is no force.
Mr. Wadell: No, no. But what I want to go back to is the reason for disobedience. There are various possible ones. One may first not know what one is supposed to do. Secondly... Is that all right? Do you agree about that?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We do not know anything. We are to be considered all fools and rascals. That is our position. As soon as we come to this material world, accept a material body, we are all fools and rascals.
Mr. Wadell: Do you accept the whole of the material world? Do you think there are some things in it which are wrong?
Prabhupada: Just like as soon as you come to the prison house, you are all criminals. You may be very intelligent, but because you are in the prison house, you are criminal. Because you are in the prison house, that is the proof that you are a criminal. You may be very intelligent man.
Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I'm not claiming... I haven't any claim to goodness. You must understand that.
Prabhupada: Similarly, any living entity, any living entity who is originally part and parcel of God, God is all-good, therefore the part and parcel of God is also all-good. But as soon as comes to the material world, he [break] As exactly like the same, that as soon as one is put into the prison wall, within, he is a criminal. Now he has to undergo the criminal laws. Similarly, because we have come to this material world, we have to undergo the material tribulations. We cannot avoid.
Mr. Wadell: Well this is a very long... We are now on a topic on which I should have to require or ask, if I put it more politely, much more time than I have. Now, I am a person with responsibility to my boys. I must go now and say our prayers in the Christian way, which...
Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice.
Mr. Wadell: ...Well, we profess up there, which not all believe, but some do, and they must be given their chance. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, that is nice.
Mr. Wadell: Will you please excuse me at this moment. I would very much like to come back and pursue this.
Prabhupada: Yes, you come often. Yes, you are welcome. Yes.
Mr. Wadell: If you feel it is of any interest or value to you.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes, After 4 o'clock you can come. You are welcome.
Syamasundara: You can come any night after 4 pm.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, well, we have a very busy week, because, as I say, we are correcting papers, we are ending our term.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, you must be busy.
Mr. Wadell: But what we are talking about is something which doesn't change from today or tomorrow or yesterday. So when these things have been done, perhaps next week, I will come down.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, you are welcome. I want that responsible persons like you should try to understand the scientific value of this movement. It is not a sentimental movement. It is based on philosophy, science, authority.
Mr. Wadell: Well, it's on this question of authority, in a sense, that we would have the greatest difficulty. But another time, please.
Prabhupada: Well, every religion is authority. That's a fact.
Mr. Wadell: It is, yes. That's true. But every individual is free and must find for themselves.
Prabhupada: No, we, we... Our proposition is, our proposition is that sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. "That is first-class religion which teaches the followers how to love God." This is our proposal.
Mr. Wadell: Well, we shall see. We have a lot to... (laughs) It is quite possible that I too have been sent.
Prabhupada: Yes. Give him some prasada. Just wait little. Take prasadam. Our only fighting is against atheism, godlessness. This is our main fight.
Mr. Wadell: I agree.
Prabhupada: Yes. People say, "There is no God, God is dead. This is all humbug." And so many there are, atheistic proposals. We are giving fight against this atheism.
Mr. Wadell: Will you excuse me. I must go.
Pradyumna: He's just bringing little...
Mukunda: We are just bringing you a little prasadam.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, no, no, I must. I have my boys. They wait for me and I must be with them. (laughter)
Prabhupada: There is some prasadam.
Syamasundara: He is teacher just down the road in the school.
Prabhupada: You take little this. Yes. Just take little.
Mr. Wadell: May I take just.
Prabhupada: Just little. I am not giving you much. (lots of laughter)
Mr. Wadell: Oh, it's very good. Just a little.
Prabhupada: It is very good, tasteful.
Mr. Wadell: Thank you.
Prabhupada: All right. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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