Prabhupada: Yes. There is a verse
in Bhagavad-gita,yad yad acarati sresthas
itaras tad anuvartate
sa yat pramanam kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
[Bg. 3.21]
The idea is that anything which is, I mean to say, accepted by the leading persons, ordinary persons follow them. Yad yad acarati sresthas. Sresthas means leading persons. Acarati, acts. Whatever leading persons act, people in general follow them. Sa yat pramanam kurute. If the leading person says, "It is nice. It is all right," the others also accept it. So by the grace of God, Krsna, you are leaders. Thousands of young men follow you. They like you. So if you give them something actually nice, the face of the world will change. So our, this Krsna consciousness movement, it is not a manufactured new thing. It is, from historical point of view, at least, it is five thousand years old. Because Krsna consciousness movement means Bhagavad-gita as it is. And Bhagavad-gita... Of course, it is supposed to be Indian religious book, but it is not like that. It is not Indian or Hinduism. It is for all the people of the world. Not only for the human being, but also other than human being, because in the Bhagavad-gita there is a verse. Krsna says, sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayo yah [Bg. 14.4]. In all species, all kinds of form... The living entities, they are in different forms. Just like we are sitting here, so many ladies, gentlemen, boys. We have got different forms. Similarly, you Europeans, you have got different color, or Indians, we have got different... So this whole world is full of varieties. So Krsna says, "All the varieties of life, it doesn't matter. I am their father." Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Pita means father. So Krsna claims all living entities as His sons. But we may say that "Krsna is Indian," "Krsna is Hindu," or "Krsna something." But no. Krsna is actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So this Krsna consciousness movement was started by Krsna Himself. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. In the Ninth Chapter, last verse, it is said, Krsna says, that "You always think of Me." Man-mana bhava. Mana means mind. "Let your mind be always engaged in Me, Krsna." Man-mana bhava. "Just you become mad-bhakta. Just become My devotee." Mad-yaji: "If you want to worship, just worship Me." Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "If you want to offer obeisances, you just offer Me. And if you do like this, then without any doubt you'll come to Me." So this is very simple method. Always thinking of Krsna. There is no loss, but the gain is very great. Suppose if I chant Hare Krsna. Materially I do not commit any offense or undergo any loss, but if there is any gain, why not try it? There is no expenditure. (laughs) Everything has got some expenditure. So this mantra, Krsna or His later succession, do not sell or distribute. Chant Hare Krsna, everyone. Dance in ecstasy. It is very nice thing. So I have come to your country, come to your place. It is very good. So my request is that you are intelligent boys. Try to understand this Krsna consciousness philosophy with your all reason, arguments. It will not to be accepted blindly. Caitanya-caritamrta-kaj, the author of Caitanya-caritamrta, he says, caitanyera dayara katha karaha vicara: "Just put into your judgement the mercy of Lord Caitanya." Vicara karile citte paibe camatkara: "And if you scrutinizingly judge over it, you'll find it is sublime." So we are putting this Krsna consciousness movement not as a force, but to the judgement of the people. Let them judge. It is not a sectarian movement. Not any religious movement. It is a science. So we put this philosophy to your judgement, and you judge it scrutinizingly with your all intellects, and you'll find it sublime. And if you find it sublime, then why not put it to the world? You are also anxious to bring some peace in the world. I have read sometimes your statements. You are anxious also. Everyone, every saintly person, should be anxious to bring in peace in the world. But we must know the process. According to Bhagavad-gita, the idea of peace is... Krsna says,
bhoktaram yajna-tapasam
sarva-loka-mahesvaram
suhrdam sarva-bhutanam
jnatva mam santim rcchati
[Bg. 5.29]
People can be peaceful by knowing three things. If he perfectly understands only three things, then he'll become peaceful. What is that? Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam. All the sacrifices, austerities, penances, whatever people are undertaking for perfection, the enjoyer of such activities, Krsna says, "I am." "I am." Just like your activities. This is also a kind of austerities. Your artistic songs, they have become popular because you have undergone some austerities. You have come to the perfection. That requires penance and austerities. Or any scientific discovery, that requires austerities. So every nice thing presented in the world, that requires austerity. Very devout, painstaking. Then it becomes successful. That is called yajna. Tapasya. So Krsna says, "The result of the tapasya enjoyer, I am." He is claiming. "The result of your tapasya should come to Me." Then you'll be satisfied. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29]. People are claiming, "This is my England," and "This is my India," "This is my Germany," "This is my China." No. Everything belongs to God, Krsna. Sarva-loka. Not only on this planet. We have divided this planet in so many states. Actually this planet was not divided. From the history of Mahabharata we understand. This planet, there was only one king, one emperor, in India, Hastinapur. Even up to five thousand years ago, there was only one king, Maharaja Pariksit, one flag. And he came out for touring over his kingdom, and he found somebody near Sindh, a black man killing a cow. And he immediately arrested him: "Oh, in my kingdom you are killing cow?" So actually the whole planet was under one flag, one suzerainty. Gradually it has become small, small, small, small, small. Just like in our, very recently, twenty years ago, India became divided, Pakistan and Hindustan. Actually India was one, but we see now it is Pakistan. And some day another "stan" will be divided. So this is going on. So sarva-loka, in all planets, all the planets, actually that is God's place. Nobody's place. We come here empty-handed; we go empty-handed. How we can claim? Suppose you have given me this place to stay. I stay for one week, and if I claim, "Oh, this is my room," is that very nice thing? (laughs) There will be immediately some disagreement, trouble. But you have kindly spared this room. I am living here. I can comfortably live, enjoy. And when my necessity... When I go, there is no trouble. Similarly, we come here in the kingdom of God empty-handed; we go empty-handed. Why we trouble that "This is my property, this is my country, this is my world, this is my planet"? Why we claim like that? Is it not insanity? Wherefrom the claim comes? So Krsna says that sarva-loka-mahesvaram: "I am the Supreme Lord of every place." And suhrdam sarva-bhutanam [Bg. 5.29]. And He is the real friend of every living entity. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. As a friend, He is sitting within your heart. He's so nice friend. In this material world we make friendship. It breaks. Or the friend lives somewhere, and I live somewhere. But He's so nice friend that He's living within, with me and within my heart. He is so nice friend. Sarva-bhutanam. He's not only selected friend. No. Even the most insignificant creature, he is living there. Paramatma. So if these three things are understood clearly, then he becomes peaceful. This is the peace formula. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita and Vedic literature. Simply one has to learn. Just like in arithmetic. There is all mathematical calculation, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, this or that, fraction. One has to learn. So Bhagavad-gita is so nice book and it is accepted. Not that because we are preaching Krsna consciousness, we are advocating for Bhagavad... No. It is accepted by scholarly section, religious section, not only in India, but all over the world. Perhaps you know. In every country there are thousands of Bhagavad-gita translation, in every language, in English, in French, in German, all languages. And even Mohammedans... Of course, scholarly Mohammedans, they also read very nicely Bhagavad-gita. I know one Mohammedan professor in India. He was a great devotee of Lord Krsna. He did not disclose that he was a devotee, but he was observing Janmastami fasting day and he was writing one article on Krsna every Janmastami day. There are many. They read. And in our childhood... Not childhood, we were young man at that time. So one Englishman was a tenant in Calcutta, my friend's house. So he was vacating the house. We went to take possession of that house, and he had many books, and there was a book, Bhagavad-gita. So that, my friend, Mr. Mullick, he was a little astonished that "He is Englishman, he's Christian. How is that, he has got Bhagavad-gita?" So he was touching that book, and that gentleman thought that "He is my landlord. He may like that book." So he immediately said, "Oh, Mr. Mullick, I cannot present that book to you. This is my life and soul." He said like that. So Bhagavad-gita is accepted by scholarly section, by philosophers. So I think people should have one scripture, one God, one mantra, and one activity. One God, Krsna. One scripture, Bhagavad-gita. And one mantra, Hare Krsna. And one activity, to serve Krsna. That's all. There will be peace. There will be actually peace all over the world. So I request you to, at least to understand this philosophy to your best knowledge. And if you think that is nice, you take up. You are also willing to give something to the world. So you try this. You have read our books, this Bhagavad-gita As It Is? No.
John Lennon: I've read bits of the Bhagavad-gita. I don't know which version it was. There's so many different translations.
Prabhupada: There are different translations. Therefore I have given this edition, Bhagavad-gita As It Is. There are interpretations. In many translations they have got interpretations. Not only in other parts of the world, but in our own country also. Just like Mahatma Gandhi. He was a great man. He has also interpreted. But the point is interpretation where required. Now, here is a fountain pen box. Everyone knows this is a fountain pen box. But if I say, "No, this is something else." That is my interpretation. Is that very nice thing? (Chuckling) Similarly, interpretation is required when things are not understood clearly. If everybody can understand this box is a fountain pen box, where is the necessity of interpretation? This is the first thing. So Bhagavad-gita is so clear. It is just like sunlight. Sunlight does not require any other lamp. For example, I'll give you, in the first verse,
dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre
samaveta yuyutsavah
mamakah pandavas caiva
kim akurvata sanjaya
[Bg. 1.1]
The, dhrtarastra uvaca. The father of Duryodhana is asking his secretary, Sanjaya. His secretary's name was Sanjaya. "Sanjaya, my boys..." Mamakah. Mamakah means "my sons," and pandava, "the sons of my younger brother." His younger brother's name was Pandu, and therefore his sons are known as Pandava. So mamaka, pandava. "My sons and my younger brother's sons, they assembled together for fighting." Yuyutsava. Yuyutsava means "with fighting spirit." And dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1], on the place known as Kuruksetra, which is a place of pilgrimage, dharma-ksetra. Kim akurvata: "After assembling there, what did they do?" That was his question. Now, this Kuruksetra place is still existing in India. You have been in India? No.
John Lennon: Have I been there?
Prabhupada: You have been there?
John Lennon: Yes. Not to that place. Hrishikesh we went to.
Prabhupada: Oh, Hrishikesh. Hrishikesh is also one of the pilgrimage. And there is similarly Kuruksetra near Delhi. Still that place is there. And that is a place of pilgrimage from the Vedic times. In the Vedas also it is stated, kuru-ksetre dharmam yajayet. If you want to function in a religious ceremony, just go to Kuruksetra. So it is a place of pilgrimage. Now the name is there. The adjective dharma-ksetra, it is from Vedic age. Then the Pandavas and the Kauravas, they are historical persons. The history is there, Mahabharata. Then where is the question of interpreting Kuruksetra as "this body," and the Pandavas as "the senses"? Where do you get this opportunity to interpret? So these things are going on. But we object, "Why should you interpret in that way when the facts are there?" That means Bhagavad-gita is very popular book. One has got his own philosophy. He wants to prove it through Bhagavad-gita. This is going on. There are so many interpretations, 664. Everyone thinks that "I can interpret in my own way." Why? Why this should be? We say, "No. You cannot interpret." Then what is the authority of Bhagavad-gita? The author of Bhagavad-gita did not leave it for being interpreted by a third-class man. He is Krsna, the Supreme Lord. He said everything clearly. Why an ordinary man should interpret His word? That is our objection. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gita As It Is. The MacMillan Company wanted to shorten. (Chuckling) Because they are merchants. They wanted to minimize. Otherwise the book was very big. They wanted to make it only four hundred. Therefore half of the slokas was not nicely explained. But next time we are going to publish in large and revised edition of Bhagavad-gita As It Is. We must explain everything. So the Bhagavad-gita is very, very high-class philosophy and theology. Social, political, science -- everything is there. It is very nice. And everything is clear. It is explained by Krsna. So this Krsna consciousness movement means to present Bhagavad-gita as it is. That's all. We have not manufactured anything.
Devotee: Come in.
Devotee: Hare Krsna.
John Lennon: This is Don's wife Jill who lives here with us too.
Prabhupada: Oh, very glad to see you. Be happy and make all others happy. That is Krsna consciousness. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. That is Vedic idea. Everyone be happy. That is the benediction. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says also the same thing, that let this Krsna consciousness movement be preached in every village, in every town of the world. People will be happy. That is His foretelling. So any missions, any high ideals, should be preached just to make everyone happy. Because in the material existence, there is no happiness. That is a fact. There cannot be any happiness. This place is not meant for happiness because in the Bhagavad-gita you'll find the Lord Himself says this is a place, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It is a place of miseries, this material world. And asasvatam, and temporary. Everything is temporary. Even if you accept, "All right. Whatever miserable is there, I'll accept this," that is also, has no value. Even if you accept, nature will not allow you to accept it and remain there. Asasvatam. You have to leave. So Krsna says, mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah: [Bg. 8.15] "If somebody comes to Me, then he hasn't got to return back to this miserable condition of life which is not only miserable but temporary." So we should understand that. Nature is so cruel. In America, President Kennedy, he was thought to be the most fortunate man, happy man, young man, was elected President, nice wife, children, honor all over the world -- (snaps finger) -- within a second, finished. Temporary. Now what is his condition? Where he is? If life is eternal, if living entity is eternal, where he has gone? What he is doing? Is he happy or he is distressed? Or he's born in America or China? Nobody can say. But it is a fact that as living entity, he's eternal, he's existing. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita philosophy. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. After destruction of this body the living entity is not destroyed. He is there. That we can understand. Just like in your childhood, you had a small body. That body is no more, but you are existing. So it is natural, when this body will not exist, I will exist in another body. It is not very difficult to understand. So this theory that body is eternal..., soul is eternal and body is temporary, that's a fact. Therefore this life, this present life, is meant for manufacturing the next body. That is Vedic knowledge. We are creating... Just like a boy. He is studying very nicely. So he's creating next body, a very educated young body. By education he can get nice job, nice place, nice position. So he's creating his next body. Similarly, we are creating our next body according to our karma. So Krsna says that "You create a body so that you can come to Me." Mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam. The whole Vedic philosophy is that if you want to go to some planet -- just like people are trying to go to moon planet. So you have to create a body like that. You cannot go in this body. They're attempting to go with this body. That will be failure. It will be not possible. In every planet the atmosphere, the..., everything is different. So you have to create a different body to go to a particular type of planet. There are millions and thousands of planets. Moon planet is one of them. Krsna says,
yanti deva-vrata devan
pitrn yanti pitr-vratah
bhutejya yanti bhutani
mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam
[Bg. 9.25]
(chuckling) Mad-yajino: "Those who are in Krsna consciousness, they'll come to Me." And what is the benefit of going to Krsna? He says, mam upetya: "If anyone comes to Me," mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15], "he does not come back again to this miserable condition." And asasvatam, temporary. Why? Samsiddhim paramam gatah. Oh, he has attained the highest perfection, to go back to Krsna, mad-yajino 'pi mam, "one who comes to Me." So this is the greatest benediction to the human society, to train them to go back to Krsna and dance there with Krsna in rasa-lila. You have seen Krsna's rasa-lila dancing? You have not seen?
John Lennon: Which? This picture?
Gurudasa: Rasa-lila dancing with the gopis. That's the..., with Radha. Dancing with Radha. Pictures like that.
John Lennon: Walls of the temple room?
Gurudasa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we can go there. Join with Krsna and dance happily without any botheration.
Hayagriva : Haribol.
Prabhupada: (laughs) We can have so many connection with Krsna, as friend, as servant, as parents, as lover, whatever you like. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. You cultivate that consciousness, how you like Krsna. He is prepared to accept you in that capacity. And that makes a solution of all problems. Here nothing is permanent, nothing is blissful, and nothing is full of knowledge. Here... This year we held examination on bhakti-sastri, and here is the answer of a girl, Himavati. She has written very nice. I have read it. So we are training these boys and girls to Krsna consciousness according to the Krsna science. Anyone can take advantage of it. It is a very nice thing. So you also try to understand, and if it is nice, you take it up. You are after something very nice. Is my proposal unreasonable? (chuckles) You are all intelligent boys. Try to understand it.
Gurudasa: Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: And you have got a very good talent, music. Na vidya sangita uttamam. The Vedic mantras were all through music. Sama Veda. Sama Veda is full of music.
yam brahma-varunendra-rudra-
stunvanti divyaih stavair
vedaih sangopada-kramopanisadair
gayanti yam samagah
Samagah. Samagah means the followers of Sama Veda. Gayanti. They are always in music. Through musical vibration they are approaching the Supreme. Samagah. Gayanti. Gayanti means singing. So Vedic mantras are sung. This whole Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, can be sung very nicely. And it is Vedic mantra, chanting. Simply by hearing the vibration, people will be benefited. Even they do not understand. You have got that, this mantra you chant? You just play it. [break] Huh?
Devotee : Begin any time.
Prabhupada: (singing slowly:)
na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah
[SB 7.5.31]
matir na krsne paratah svato va
mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam
adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram
punah punas carvita-carvananam
[SB 7.5.30]
matir na krsne paratah svato va
mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam
adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram
punah punas carvita-carvananam
[SB 7.5.30]
na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah
[SB 7.5.31]
naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim
sprsaty anarthapagamo yad-arthah
mahiyasam pada-rajo 'bhisekam
niskincananam na vrnita yavat
[SB 7.5.32]
na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah
[SB 7.5.31]
Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum... [break] The whole effort here is [break] Veda mantra. Sa jnata na vrtti. Vedanta-sutra-sabdat. Simply by transcendental vibration of sound, everything can be achieved. (long pause) What kind of philosophy you are following? May I ask?
John Lennon: Following?
Yoko Ono: We don't follow anything. We are just living.
George Harrison: We've done meditation. Or I do my meditation. I have a mantra meditation.
Prabhupada: This is also mantra.
John Lennon: It's not the song, though.
George Harrison: No, no. It's chanting.
John Lennon: We heard it from Maharishi. A mantra each.
Prabhupada: His mantra is not public.
George Harrison: Not out loud. No.
John Lennon: No. It's a secret. (laughs)
Prabhupada: There is a version by Ramanujacarya. Ramanujacarya, he was a great acarya of this Vaisnava sampradaya. His spiritual master gave him mantra: "My dear boy, you chant this mantra silently. Nobody can hear. It is very..." So then he asked, "What is the effect of this mantra?" He said, "By chanting this mantra, by meditation, you'll get liberation." So he immediately went out and in a public, big meeting he said that "You chant this mantra. You'll be all liberated." (laughter) So he came back to his spiritual master, and his spiritual master was very angry that "I told you that you should chant silently." He said, "Yes, I have committed offense. So whatever punishment you like, you can give me. But because you told me that this mantra will liberate, I have given it publicly. Let everyone hear and be liberated. Let me go to hell. I don't mind. I have disobeyed your order. Let me go to hell. I am prepared. But by this chanting mantra, if anyone is liberated, let it be publicly distributed." His spiritual master embraced him: "You are greater than me." You see? So if a mantra has so power, why it should be secret? It should be distributed. People are suffering. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Chant this Hare Krsna mantra. Anyone who will hear... Even the birds and beasts will hear and they will be liberated." That's all.
Yoko Ono: If Hare Krsna is such a strong, powerful mantra, is there any reason to chant anything else? For instance, you talked about songs and many different mantras. Is there any point in chanting other songs or mantra?
Prabhupada: No, no. These mantras are also... But Hare Krsna mantra is specially recommended for this age. And the Vedic mantras, they are also chanted, I told you, with musical, tampura, and they sit down and chant. Narada Muni, he's chanting always. So chanting through musical instruments, mantras, it is not new introduction. It is from time immemorial. And Hare Krsna mantra, especially in this age, that is recommended in many Vedic literature, Brahmanda Purana, Kali-santarana Upanisad, Agni Purana, like that. And apart from the statement in the Vedic literature, Lord Caitanya Himself, He preached this mantra. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna... And people, public, followed Him. Yes. [break] So anything... Just like a scientist. When he discovers something, it becomes a public property. People may take advantage of it. Similarly, if mantra has got potency, all people should take advantage of it. Why it should be secret?
George Harrison: All people can get the mantras that we have, but it's just they must get it from somebody else. We can't give it to them, but it is available for everybody.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mantra, if it is valuable, it is valuable for everybody. Why it should be for a particular person?
John Lennon: If all mantras are... All mantras just the name of God. Whether it's a secret mantra or an open mantra, it's all the name of God. So it doesn't really make much difference, does it, which one you sing?
Prabhupada: No. Just like in drug shop they sell all medicine for disease, curing disease. But still, you have to take doctor's prescription to take a particular type of medicine. They will not supply you. If you go to a drug shop and you say, "I am diseased. You give me any medicine," that is not... He'll ask you, "Where is your prescription?" So similarly, in this age, in Kali-yuga age, this mantra, Hare Krsna mantra, is recommended in the sastras, and great stalwart -- we consider Him the incarnation of Krsna-Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He preached this. Therefore our principle is everyone should follow. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We should follow the footprints of great authorities. That is our business. The Vedic mantra says, tarko 'pratisthah. If you simply try to argue and try to approach the Absolute, it is very difficult, simply by argument and reasoning, because our arguments and reason are limited because our senses are imperfect. [break] So tarko 'pratisthah srutayo vibhinnah. And scriptures, there are different kinds of scriptures. Nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. Philosophers, every philosopher has got a different opinion, and unless a philosopher defeats other philosopher, he cannot become a big philosopher. So therefore philosophical speculation also will not make a solution. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam. So it is very secret. Then how to get that secret thing? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You simply follow great personalities, how they have achieved success. So our, this Vaisnava philosophy is to follow the great personality, just like Krsna or Caitanya Mahaprabhu or acaryas of His succession, to take shelter of authority and follow. That is recommended in Vedas, that you follow great authorities. That will take you to the ultimate goal. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. So... Krsna also recommends in the Bhagavad-gita, Fourth Chapter, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. This science of Krsna consciousness was understood by disciplic succession. Parampara-praptam. Imam vivasvavate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: "My dear Arjuna, don't think that this Krsna consciousness science I am speaking to you is something new. No." Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "It is eternal, and first I spoke to sun-god." Vivasvate. Vivasvan manave prahuh: "And Vivasvan said to his son, Manu." Manur iksvakave 'bravit: "And Manu also transferred this knowledge to his son, Iksvaku." Evam parampara-praptam: [Bg. 4.2] "In this way, by disciplic succession, it is coming on." Sa kaleneha yogo nastah parantapa: "But in due course of time it is now broken. Therefore I am speaking to you again." So a mantra should be captured from the disciplic succession. According to Vedic injunction, sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah: "If the mantra does not come through disciplic succession, then it will not be active." Viphala. Mantras te viphalah. Viphala means "will not produce result." Mantras te viphalah matah. So mantra has to be received through the channel; then it will act. Mantra cannot be manufactured. Mantra must be from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through disciplic succession, channel. It has to be captured in that way, and then it will act. Sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. So according to our Vaisnava sampradaya, the mantra is coming down through four channels. One is coming through Lord Siva, one is coming through goddess Laksmi. Not one, different. One thing is coming in different channel. One through the channel of Brahma, one through the channel of Lord Siva, one through the channel of Laksmi, and one through the channel of Kumaras. So they are called four sampradayas. So one has to take mantra, either of these four sampradayas. Then that mantra is active, and if we perform that mantra in that way, it will act. Sampradaya-vihina ye. And if one does not receive this mantra in either of these sampradaya, channels, then viphala, it will not act. It will not give fruit.
Yoko Ono: If the mantra itself has such power, does it matter where you receive it, where you take it?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is a fact. The example is given just like milk. Milk is nutritious. That's a fact. Everyone knows. But if the milk is touched through the tongue of a serpent, it is no more nutritious. It is poison.
Yoko Ono: Well, milk is material.
Prabhupada: No, material. You want to understand through your material senses, we have to give...
Yoko Ono: Well, no. I don't have, you don't have to tell me material senses. I mean mantra is not material. It should be something spiritual, and therefore nobody can spoil it, I don't think. I mean, I wonder if anybody can spoil something that is not material.
Prabhupada: But the thing is that if you don't receive the mantra through the proper channel, it may not be mantra.
John Lennon: But how would you know, anyway? How are you able to tell, anyway? I mean, for any of your disciples or us or anybody that goes to any spiritual master, how are we to tell...
Prabhupada: Not any spiritual master.
John Lennon: True master. How are we to tell one from the other?
Prabhupada: It is not that any spiritual master. Sampradaya. Sampradaya means a particular line of disciplic succession.
John Lennon: But, you see, Maharishi said exactly the same thing about his mantra's coming from the Vedic, with seemingly as much authority as you, and he was probably right. So how... It's like having too many fruits on a plate, and you can't only eat two of them.
Prabhupada: No. If mantra is coming down in that way, then it is potency; the potency is there.
John Lennon: But Hare Krsna is the best one.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yoko Ono: Well, if Hare Krsna is the best one, what is the reason why we have to bother to even say anything else other than this one?
Prabhupada: You don't require to bother to say anything else. We say that Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient for one's perfection.
George Harrison: Surely isn't it like flowers? If somebody may prefer roses and somebody may like carnations better... Isn't it really a matter for the devotee, that one person may find Hare Krsna is more beneficial to his spiritual progress, and yet somebody else, some other mantra may be more beneficial? Isn't it like just a matter of taste? Like judging a flower. They're all flowers, but some people may like one better than the other.
Prabhupada: But still, there is distinction. The rose flower is considered better than simply a flower without any flavor.
Yoko Ono: In that case I can't...
Prabhupada: Just try to understand this flower example.
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is all right. You are attracted by some flower, I am attracted by some flower, but amongst the flowers there are distinctions. There are many flowers which has no flavor and many flower has flavor.
Yoko Ono: Is that flower that has flavor better than...
Prabhupada: So therefore attraction for any flower is not the solution of the question. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita, ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Krsna is Supreme Absolute. Anyone wants Him in any way, He also presents Himself in that way. Just like the same example. If you want a yellow flower, never mind whether there is any scent or any flavor or not, so that flower is there. It is for you. That's all. But if anyone wants rose flower, Krsna gives him rose flower. But when you make a comparative study which one is better, then rose will be considered better. (chuckling) So ye yatha mam prapadyante. That means the Absolute is realized... Of course, varieties there are, but the original division of the Absolute is three: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. Now, Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan is the same Absolute. Different names. The jnanis, or the empiric philosophers, they reach or they aim at Brahman, impersonal Brahman. The yogis, they, I mean to say, focus on the Supersoul, Paramatma. And the devotees, they aim at Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, this Krsna and the Supersoul and the impersonal Brahman, they are not different. They are light. They are not darkness. But in the light also, there is difference The example is given: just like sunlight, sun globe and the sun-god. Everywhere you find light. In the sunshine there is light. In sun globe there is light. And what to speak of the predominating deity in the sun-globe? He also must be light; otherwise wherefrom this light comes? So so far light is concerned, everywhere there. But you cannot say because sunshine has come through your window in your room, you cannot say the sun has come. That will be mistake. Sun is many, many miles away. But so far light is concerned, now there is question of degrees of light, intensity of light. So the degrees of spiritual realization in Brahman, degrees of spiritual realization in Paramatma, and degrees of spiritual realization in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are different.
Yoko Ono: But you said about if the milk goes through a serpent's mouth it will produce poison, and, for instance, George just told us about a week ago a very interesting story about a man who had a face of Christ, and in twenty years' time he had a face of Judah. And the Catholic Church and all those churches first probably had good words, and now it's deteriorating. Now, how would you decide, really, that brahmanas are always in a pure state that you speak of, that they would never turn into serpents?
Prabhupada: That you have to become a serious student.
Yoko Ono: Well, I mean, what do you mean by serious student? Maybe everybody, all of us are serious anyway. I mean, we're born serious or born, you know, unserious.
Prabhupada: Then you must know what is distinction between Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan, if you are serious student.
Yoko Ono: But does it depend on knowledge? I mean, the final judgement that you make?
Prabhupada: Everything depends on knowledge. Without knowledge how can we make progress? Student means to acquire knowledge. Serious student means to acquire knowledge.
Yoko Ono: But not always the knowledgeable one are the ones who...
Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot know completely. That is because our knowledge is very imperfect. But still, so far our knowledge is concerned, as far as possible, we should try to understand. Avan manasa gocarah. This Absolute is so great and unlimited that it is not possible for us to know Him completely. That is not possible. Our senses does not allow. But as far as it is possible, because, after all, we are part and parcel of the Absolute, so all the qualities of the Absolute are there in us, but it is in minute quantity. So that minute quantity is also very great in comparison to material knowledge. Material knowledge is practically no knowledge. It is covered. But when one is liberated, liberated knowledge is certainly very, very great than material knowledge. So Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. These are the statements of Bhagavata. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. It is... Sabdyate means sounded as Bhagavan, Paramatma, and Brahman. Now, what are the difference or degrees of knowledge? Brahman knowledge, Paramatma knowledge, and Bhagavan knowledge. The same thing. The knowledge of sunshine, the knowledge of sun globe, and the knowledge of this predominating deity in the sun globe. So knowledge of sunshine is not knowledge of the predominating deity of the sun globe. There is another example in this connection. Just like if you see one hill from a long-distant place, first of all you see just like it is a cloud. Then, if you proceed further, you'll see something green. And if you enter into that hill you'll see, oh, there are so many varieties. There are animals, there are men, there are trees. But from the distant, you'll see just like a cloud. So although the same thing... Similarly, Absolute, when visioned from the Brahman point of view, it is just like cloud. Absolute when visioned as Paramatma, it is just like something green. And Absolute when realized as the Supreme Person, it is just like you enter into the hill and see everything in detail. So although the focus is the same, the Brahmavadi and the Paramatmavadi and the devotee's focus is the same, but due to their respective position the realization is different. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Therefore Bhagavad-gita you'll see,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
[Bg. 10.8]
"I am the source of everything." This sarvam means Paramatma, Brahman, everything. These are clearly stated. Brahmano 'ham pratistha. So Brahman knowledge or Paramatma knowledge is within Krsna knowledge. If one has got Krsna knowledge he has got Paramatma knowledge, Brahman knowledge. He has got the effect of yogic principle, meditation, he has got the effect of empiric philosophical speculation, and he is situated personally in the service of the Lord. So if you make comparative study, then this Krsna knowledge includes all knowledge. The Vedas also confirm it, yasmin sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. If you understand the Supreme, then all knowledge becomes automatically revealed. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. And in the Bhagavad-gita also it is stated, "Knowing this, you'll have nothing to know anymore." In the ninth chapter there is. So first of all we have to seriously study. Therefore I'm asking that to become serious student, what is the difference between Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan? Paramatma is localized aspect of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. And Brahman is the effulgence of the Absolute. And Parambrahma, or Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is Krsna. So if you have full Krsna knowledge, then you have got Brahman knowledge and Paramatma knowledge. But if you have got simply Brahman knowledge or Paramatma knowledge, you have no Krsna knowledge. The same example can be... If you are in the sunshine, then you do not know what is sun globe and the predominating deity in the sun. But if you are by the side of the sun deity, you know what is sun globe and what is sunshine. Therefore impartially it is recommended that one should know the science of the Absolute Truth, or Krsna. That will include all other knowledge. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. This is also a verse from Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, "After many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when one is actually wise, jnanavan..." Jnanavan means has attained wisdom. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "He surrenders unto Me." Why? Vasudevah sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] "He understands, 'Oh, Vasudeva, Krsna is everything.' " Sa mahatma sudurlabhah: "Such great soul is very rare." And in the tenth chapter,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
[Bg. 10.8]
"I am the origin. I am the source of everything. Everything emanates from Me. One who knows this science perfectly, he is budha, he is intelligent, and he becomes engaged in Krsna consciousness." And the Vedanta-sutra also, the first aphorism is athato brahma jijnasa: "Now it is the time for inquiry about the Absolute, Brahman." So what is Brahman? The next aphorism is janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "Brahman, the Absolute, is that from whom everything is coming, emanating." That Absolute is personally saying, mattah sarvam pravartate: "Everything is emanating from Me." So if you study Vedic literature very scrutinizingly, then you come to this conclusion, that Krsna is the Supreme. Therefore Krsna consciousness will include all other knowledge. Just like if you have got million dollar, ten dollar is included, five hundred dollar is included, thousand dollar is included. But one who has got ten dollar or five hundred dollar, he cannot claim that he has got million dollar. Similarly, Krsna science means full spiritual knowledge. That is accepted by the acaryas. And even you are speaking of Maharsi. He has written some book on Bhagavad-gita?
John Lennon: Yes. That's the one we've read.
Prabhupada: So why he's taking Krsna's book as authority? Bhagavad-gita is Krsna's book. Everyone knows. Why he's taking Krsna's book?
George Harrison: Well, he didn't. He just translated it into English.
Prabhupada: Why? Unless he has got some respect for that book?
John Lennon: But I've also read another, part of another translation by Yogananda, Paramahamsa Yogananda.
Prabhupada: Everyone will have to take Krsna's book first to prove their authority.
Yoko Ono: But, er... What...
Prabhupada: Vivekananda has taken, Aurobindo has taken, Dr. Radhakrishnan has taken, Mahatma Gandhi... There are thousands and thousands. So why do they take Bhagavad-gita?
George Harrison: So that we can read it in English.
Prabhupada: No, no. It is not the question of English. It is the question of the thoughts. English it may be or Parsee it may be. That doesn't matter. Why do they take shelter of the thoughts of Bhagavad-gita unless they accept Bhagavad-gita as authority? Why they quote from Bhagavad-gita? So why not directly Bhagavad-gita? If Bhagavad-gita is the authority for everyone, why not Bhagavad-gita as it is? That is our proposition.
George Harrison: But Bhagavad-gita as it is is Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: No, we have made English.
George Harrison: Yes, but they all make it English.
John Lennon: But that must be also a translation, mustn't it? Whoever puts it into English. I mean...
Prabhupada: So you also read any Bhagavad-gita translation only. You don't read the original.
George Harrison: Well, which is the original? It's the same as the Bible.
Prabhupada: Original is there. Origin is Sanskrit.
Yoko Ono: It's in Sanskrit, but we don't read Sanskrit.
John Lennon: Yes, but it's pointless, me reading Sanskrit, because I don't understand Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to take translation.
George Harrison: So then there's all, a hundred translations.
John Lennon: And interpretations.
George Harrison: Which is again like all the roses and all the different flowers. It's a matter of taste as to which one. Because everybody claims their version is the best. All the versions I've read, they all say... And sometimes I get something from one which I don't get from something else.
Devotee: Did you ever read any without any commentary at all? Just straight?
George Harrison: Just straight translation?
Devotee: Without any commentary.
George Harrison: Just the Sanskrit, you mean?
Devotee: No. Just the translation.
George Harrison: Well, that's really what they are, you know. They all have a translation. Some of them have a commentary as well, on top of that. But just again the translations, you know, it depends on who's translating as to what the translation is.
Devotee: That's all right. So you have to go through an authority. Someone who's...
John Lennon: But how do you know one authority from the other?
George Harrison: The world is full of authorities, really, you know. (Prabhupada chuckling)
Yoko Ono: There's five hundred authorities, you know, who...
John Lennon: I found that the best thing for myself is to take a little bit from here and a little bit from there and a little bit from there. (Prabhupada chuckles)
Yoko Ono: I mean, we're not just saying that. We want to ask your advice on that. In other words, what is your answer to that. Your saying there's five hundred versions.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is seven hundred verses.
Yoko Ono: All right, so seven hundred. I don't know. But what I mean is you use the word authority, saying why would he translate that into English without authority? Now, what is the authority and who has the authority?
Prabhupada: Authority is the original text.
Yoko Ono: Yes, but everybody's translating from the original text, I'm sure you know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yoko Ono: So what's the difference between one and the other?
Prabhupada: Therefore we say that sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te viphala matah. If we then don't take from the disciplic succession of the authority... Just like Krsna. Now, take for example. We have explained this in our introduction, that nobody is authority. Don't care. Krsna is authority because Bhagavad-gita is spoken by Krsna. That you cannot deny. Can you deny that?
Yoko Ono: Is Krsna translated...
Prabhupada: Krsna is authority. Krsna is authority.
Yoko Ono: Yes, all right. Did He translate it into English?
Prabhupada: Just hear me.
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: Krsna is authority, you accept?
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: Is that all right?
John Lennon: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then you see what Krsna says. That is authority. Why should you hear anyone else? Now, what Krsna has said, to understand that, that you have to search out if you are serious student.
John Lennon: How do we know if somebody else, Yogananda, Maharsi, and all these different people that have translated it, how are we to tell that their version isn't Krsna's word from your version?
Prabhupada: Therefore I say if you are serious student, then you study Sanskrit, original.
John Lennon: Study Sanskrit? Oh, now you're talking.
George Harrison: But Vivekananda said that books and rituals and dogmas and temples are secondary details, anyway. He said they're not the most important thing, anyway. You don't have to read the book in order to have the perception.
Prabhupada: Then why Vivekananda wrote so many books? (laughter)
George Harrison: Well, it's the same as in the Gita.
Prabhupada: No, no. He said there is no use of books. Then why he wrote so many books?
George Harrison: But in Hrishikesh, when we meditated for a long time, one man got tired of meditation, and he thought... He made the excuse to read the Gita so he could come out of meditation, and he opened the Gita and it said, "Don't read books. Meditate."
Prabhupada: Who says?
George Harrison: The Gita said it.
Prabhupada: "Don't read books"?
George Harrison: It said, "Don't read books. Meditate."
Prabhupada: Where?
Yoko Ono: No, but you see, you...
Prabhupada: He said, brahma-sutra-padais caiva hetumadbhir viniscitaih [Bg. 13.5]. He refers that "This scientific knowledge, the Absolute Truth, is explained very nicely in Brahma-sutra, Vedanta-sutra." He refers to the book. Another place Krsna says,
yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama-karatah
na sa siddhim avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim
[Bg. 16.23]
"Anyone who does not follow the scriptural injunction, his attempt will be failure. He'll never be happy. And what to speak of being promoted to the spiritual world.?" These things are there. How you can say Krsna has not recommended to read books?
Yoko Ono: Then, in that sense, you see, for instance... I see the same pattern in what you have said. For instance, you said that Hare Krsna is the most superpowerful word, and if that is true, then why do you bother to utter any other words? I mean, is it necessary? And why do you encourage us, saying that we're songwriters and all,...
Prabhupada: No...
Yoko Ono: ...to write any song but Hare Krsna?
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna mantra is cleansing process.
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: So actually one who chants Hare Krsna regularly, he hasn't got to do anything. Actually it is the position. He doesn't require to read any book.
Yoko Ono: Yes. Then why do you say that it's all right and all that? I mean is it a compromise or what?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Yoko Ono: I mean the fact that we are doing songwriting and all that. It's a waste of time, isn't it? Without Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, not waste of time. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was chanting simply. Even He was criticized by great sannyasis that "You have taken sannyasa. You do not read Vedanta. You are simply chanting and dancing." He was criticized. But the thing is, when Caitanya Mahaprabhu met such stalwart scholars, He was not lagging behind. Similarly, Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient. There is no doubt about it. But if somebody wants to understand this Hare Krsna mantra through philosophy, through study, through Vedanta, we are not lacking. We have got books. It is not that Hare Krsna mantra is insufficient, therefore we are recommending books. No. Not like that. Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient. But... Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was chanting, but when there was a Prakasananda Sarasvati, when there was a Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, oh, He was ready to argue with him with Vedanta. So we should not be dumb. If somebody comes to argue with Vedanta philosophy, then we must be prepared. When we are preaching, there will be so many people, different types of people will come. Otherwise Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient. Sufficient. It does not require any education, any reading, anything. Simply chanting Hare Krsna and you get the highest perfection. That's a fact.
Syamasundara: You were saying earlier today that we can also supplement our Krsna consciousness while we're working, hammering the nails.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: So chanting along with devotional service, performing our duties while concentrating on Krsna, is also part of the process, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Yes. Anything, any way. The whole idea is manah krsne nivesayet. Mind should be fixed up in Krsna. That is the process. Either you go through philosophy or through arguments or through chanting. Any way. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita. Yoginam api sarvesam [Bg. 6.47]. Of all kinds of yogis. In the... You might have read it. Yoginam api sarvesam. I think Maharsi has translated this Bhagavad-gita, and in the sixth chapter...? You have read it?
George Harrison: Oh, his translation of Gita?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: Sixth chapter, he's asking.
George Harrison: Yes. I haven't read all of it. Part of it.
Prabhupada: So in the sixth chapter, last verse, you'll find yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatena... You have got our Bhagavad-gita As It Is here? No? How is that, you don't keep Bhagavad-gita? You'll find it is clearly stated that all yogis, the one yogi whose mind is fixed up in Krsna, he is first-class yogi. Yoginam api sarvesam. Sarvesam, of all yogis. There are different kinds of yogis. So yoginam api sarvesam mad-gata: "One whose mind is fixed up in Me," or Krsna, antaratmana, "within the heart," sraddhavan, "and is devotee," and bhajate, "and serves Me, oh," sa me yuktatamo matah, "he is the first-class yogi." Tama. Tama means most, supermost. Yuktatamo. Yogi, better yogi and the supermost yogi.
John Lennon: Whose is that little purple paperback Gita that we all have? A light grey purple?
Devotee : That's the one.
John Lennon: Oh, that's the one? I've got that in my office. There's another one by that guy, that Spanish guy? (indistinct)
Syamasundara: One thing that Prabhupada was explaining, I think, that didn't quite get cleared up was how do we discern which translation of the Gita is most authoritative. Well, he answered when he said that Krsna is the authority. So we have to take it in a channel from Krsna, and there are only four lines of disciplic succession that come from Krsna. And of these, only one is existing now, or is it two?
Yoko Ono: What do you mean by "channel"? Is it through hereditary or what?
Syamasundara: Lines of disciplic succession. Yes, it's hereditary. Swamiji's spiritual master...
Prabhupada: Just like channel you'll understand very easily. You send some money order to your friend. So from which channel he'll receive? He'll receive through the post office, not through any other channel. So if the postal peon delivers it, you are confident, "Yes, the money has come." So why you give the importance to the postal peon? Because he's representative of the post office. Similarly, Krsna is the original authority. So the Krsna's representative is the authority. And who is Krsna's representative? Who is a devotee of Krsna. So therefore the devotee of Krsna is authority, at least of Bhagavad-gita. So you have to receive through the devotee of Krsna about Bhagavad-gita. One who does not know anything about Krsna, how he can preach Bhagavad-gita? This is common sense.
Jill: Will you excuse me? I must put my baby to bed. Good night.
Prabhupada: (Chuckles) Take some prasadam.
Jill: Oh, thank you.
John Lennon: Well, who says who's in the line of descent? You know, I mean, it's just like royalty. Who's who? (All talk at once)
Yoko Ono: That's what I was talking about.
John Lennon: I mean Yogananda claims...
George Harrison: His guru's, guru's, guru's...
John Lennon: All his guru's, guru's, guru's, gurus, like that. Maharsi claimed all his guru's guru's gurus went back. I mean, how are we to know? I mean, it's a matter of just deciding, you know.
Prabhupada: But Maharsi does not say anything about Krsna.
George Harrison: Doesn't he? No, his guru is the Sankaracarya.
John Lennon: Which is Sankara's teaching? But they all talk about God, and Krsna's just a name for God, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Anyway, whatever he may be, he does not go up to Krsna. (chuckles)
George Harrison: Personality, anyway, of...
John Lennon: Well, that's what he used to say in exactly the same way, about anybody else.
Prabhupada: No, no. He cannot be because he does not speak about anything Krsna. A peon comes, he does not know anything about post office -- what kind of peon he is?
Yoko Ono: No, but his post office... He was talking about his post office.
Prabhupada: No, you cannot create post office. Post office one. Government post office.
Yoko Ono: Yes, of course. I'm sure there's only one post office.
Prabhupada: You cannot create that he is... Somebody says, "I belong to another post office." Then he is at once unauthorized. (Everyone talking at once)
Yoko Ono: No, no. He saying that his post office is the one post office.
Devotee: Then why... Obviously not satisfied yet with what they found in (indistinct) that post office. Why have you come here, then? If you have been satisfied with that... You have to test.
John Lennon: Yeah, we've gotta go around. Yoko never met Maharsi. We're asking advice of how to, you know, how to stop. You can go on forever. I know people that have been wandering around for years, seeking gurus and spiritual teachers. I mean it's doing them all quite well.
Prabhupada: Bring prasadam.
John Lennon: I mean, we can only judge on a material level by looking at your disciples and looking at other peoples' disciples and looking at ourselves, you know. And, of course, if there's thirty disciples, seven of them look fairly spiritual, another ten look okay, and the others just look as though they're having trouble... You know. So there's no...
Yoko Ono: It's the same thing.
John Lennon: We still have to keep sifting through like sand to see whose got the best matter, or...
Prabhupada: Try to understand this, that regarding authority, you say that how to find out the authority. To answer this question, Krsna is authority. There is no doubt. Because if Krsna is an authority, Maharsi takes also Krsna's book and Aurobindo takes Krsna's book, Vivekananda takes Krsna's book, Dr. Radhakrishnan takes Krsna's book. So Krsna is authority. Sankaracarya also takes Krsna's book. You know Sankaracarya's commentary on Krsna? And in that commentary he accepts, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28], sa bhagavan svayam krsnah: "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He accepts. You say that Maharsi accepts Sankaracarya. Sankaracarya accepts Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
George Harrison: Yes, but it's like the Bible which came...
Prabhupada: Now, don't go to Bible. We're talking of Krsna. (laughter) Just try to understand.
Yoko Ono: Yes, but, you see, the religion is bringing out (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Just see that Krsna is the authority. He's accepted by everyone. You say Maharsi belongs to the Sankara sampradaya. Sankaracarya accepts Krsna. Not as authority... He says, "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He says this very word in his commentary.
Gurudasa: Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam.
Prabhupada: So authority means one who has accepted Krsna as the Supreme Lord. Then he is authority.
Yoko Ono: Now, who said that?
Prabhupada: Everyone says. All authorities. Sankaracarya says. Ramanujacarya says. Those who are really authorities, those disciplic succession is going on. In India, there are five sects. Actually two sects. Vaisnava and Sankara. So the Vaisnava accept Krsna as the authority, and Sankara accepted Krsna authority. There are no third sect. Practically, actually, there is one sect, the Vaisnava. Anyway, later on, later ages, Sankaracarya established his sect. But Sankaracarya accepts that krsnas tu bhagavan svayam: [SB 1.3.28] "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," in his writing. And at his last stage of his life he said, "You rascal fools, what you are dealing with? That will not save you." Bhaja govindam: "You just worship Krsna." Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. Mudha-mate means "You rascal." (laughter)
John Lennon: Means what?
Gurudasa: "You rascal."
Prabhupada: "You rascal, just worship Krsna and become devotee of Krsna, Govinda."
bhaja govindam bhaja govindam
bhaja govindam mudha-mate
prapte sannihite kale
na hi na hi raksati dukrn-karane
"When your death will come, all this grammatical jugglery of words will not save you. Krsna can save you. So you bhaja govindam." That is instruction of Sankaracarya.
Yoko Ono: But every sect says that...
Prabhupada: No, there is no question, "every sect." Krsna is the center of every sect. If Krsna is the center, then there is no question of every sect. Only Krsna sect.
John Lennon: Does Krsna mean God?
Syamasundara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna means God, and God means Krsna.
John Lennon: So for the Bible or any other holy book, they all talk about one God, but they all have many ways of...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
George Harrison: Personalities.
John Lennon: Yes.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
John Lennon: It's still just the one Being everywhere, in all the books. But they all have... Why isn't Hare Krsna or something similar in the Bible, then? I mean, that's the only other one I know because I was brought up with the Bible.
Gurudasa: It is. In the 150th Psalm it says, "Praise the Lord with every breath. Praise the Lord with drum and flute."
John Lennon: But they haven't got very good tunes, you know. I mean, they haven't been passing on any good chants, have they?
Mukunda: They don't have the aural disciplic succession with the Bible. It's broken.
John Lennon: It's just a matter of archetype (?). I mean, would it be as effective to chant, "Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus, Hail Lord Jesus"?
Devotee: If you're sincere, sure.
John Lennon: But it's a waste of time of doing it unsincerely, isn't it?
Yoko Ono: Yeah, it depends on sincerity.
Prabhupada: No, no. Lord Jesus says that he is son of God. He's son of God.
Yamuna: Your cab's here, Syamasundara. Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: What is that? You want to hear? Come on, sit down. So there is no difference. Lord Jesus Christ says that he is son of God. So there is no quarrel between God and God's son. So he says that "Love God," and Krsna says, "Love Me." The same thing. (laughs) If you say that "You love me," and your wife says that "Love my husband," there is no difference of opinion.
Yoko Ono: But about the knowledge, I'm a bit worried about it, if you have to, you know, learn Sanskrit and all that, and that's the only way to get enlightenment... I mean, what do you do about people who are not sort of skillful in learning languages and things like that? Would that not at all... I mean, I thought that it...
John Lennon: It's translated, anyway.
Prabhupada: Translation is there.
John Lennon: So you've got to take a risk.
Yoko Ono: But he said, then why don't you go and...
John Lennon: So then you've got to take the risk of reading a translated one.
Gurudasa: So you see many devotees of the authority, and then you decide which is the most sincere devotee. And just like in the ninth chapter He says, "You will come to Me." Now, if I asked you for a glass of water and you poured it on the wall, I'd think you were silly. But if you brought it to me, then I knew you were in knowledge, we were having a reciprocal relationship. Therefore, if the devotee is saying, "Worship Krsna," and not putting so much of his own ideas in, but just saying, "Worship Krsna," all throughout, as Swamiji does, then you can know he's a sincere devotee.
Prabhupada: No, no. One thing you try to understand. Why these people, if Krsna is not the supreme authority, why they are taking Krsna's book and translating? Why don't you try to understand?
George Harrison: I'm not saying Krsna isn't the Supreme. I believe that.
Prabhupada: No, no. I mean to say, even there are other sects, as you say, Maharsi. They accept also indirectly Krsna as the supreme authority. Because if we say Maharsi belongs to Sankara sampradaya...
George Harrison: Yeah, but we had a misunderstanding before about the translation of the Sanskrit Gita into English, and I was saying that there's many versions, and I think we thought you were trying to say that your version, your translation, was the only authority and that the other translations... But we didn't really have understanding as to the identity of Krsna.
Prabhupada: That's all right. If you believe Krsna is the Supreme Lord, if that is your version, then you have to see who are much addicted to Krsna directly. For argument's sake. That these people are twenty-four hours chanting Krsna, and another person who has no, not a single word Krsna, how he can become devotee of Krsna? How he can become representative of Krsna, who does not utter even the name of Krsna? If Krsna is authority accepted, therefore who are directly addicted to Krsna, they are authorities. (Kirtanas follow, George Harrison leading) (end)
itaras tad anuvartate
sa yat pramanam kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
[Bg. 3.21]
The idea is that anything which is, I mean to say, accepted by the leading persons, ordinary persons follow them. Yad yad acarati sresthas. Sresthas means leading persons. Acarati, acts. Whatever leading persons act, people in general follow them. Sa yat pramanam kurute. If the leading person says, "It is nice. It is all right," the others also accept it. So by the grace of God, Krsna, you are leaders. Thousands of young men follow you. They like you. So if you give them something actually nice, the face of the world will change. So our, this Krsna consciousness movement, it is not a manufactured new thing. It is, from historical point of view, at least, it is five thousand years old. Because Krsna consciousness movement means Bhagavad-gita as it is. And Bhagavad-gita... Of course, it is supposed to be Indian religious book, but it is not like that. It is not Indian or Hinduism. It is for all the people of the world. Not only for the human being, but also other than human being, because in the Bhagavad-gita there is a verse. Krsna says, sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayo yah [Bg. 14.4]. In all species, all kinds of form... The living entities, they are in different forms. Just like we are sitting here, so many ladies, gentlemen, boys. We have got different forms. Similarly, you Europeans, you have got different color, or Indians, we have got different... So this whole world is full of varieties. So Krsna says, "All the varieties of life, it doesn't matter. I am their father." Aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Pita means father. So Krsna claims all living entities as His sons. But we may say that "Krsna is Indian," "Krsna is Hindu," or "Krsna something." But no. Krsna is actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So this Krsna consciousness movement was started by Krsna Himself. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. In the Ninth Chapter, last verse, it is said, Krsna says, that "You always think of Me." Man-mana bhava. Mana means mind. "Let your mind be always engaged in Me, Krsna." Man-mana bhava. "Just you become mad-bhakta. Just become My devotee." Mad-yaji: "If you want to worship, just worship Me." Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "If you want to offer obeisances, you just offer Me. And if you do like this, then without any doubt you'll come to Me." So this is very simple method. Always thinking of Krsna. There is no loss, but the gain is very great. Suppose if I chant Hare Krsna. Materially I do not commit any offense or undergo any loss, but if there is any gain, why not try it? There is no expenditure. (laughs) Everything has got some expenditure. So this mantra, Krsna or His later succession, do not sell or distribute. Chant Hare Krsna, everyone. Dance in ecstasy. It is very nice thing. So I have come to your country, come to your place. It is very good. So my request is that you are intelligent boys. Try to understand this Krsna consciousness philosophy with your all reason, arguments. It will not to be accepted blindly. Caitanya-caritamrta-kaj, the author of Caitanya-caritamrta, he says, caitanyera dayara katha karaha vicara: "Just put into your judgement the mercy of Lord Caitanya." Vicara karile citte paibe camatkara: "And if you scrutinizingly judge over it, you'll find it is sublime." So we are putting this Krsna consciousness movement not as a force, but to the judgement of the people. Let them judge. It is not a sectarian movement. Not any religious movement. It is a science. So we put this philosophy to your judgement, and you judge it scrutinizingly with your all intellects, and you'll find it sublime. And if you find it sublime, then why not put it to the world? You are also anxious to bring some peace in the world. I have read sometimes your statements. You are anxious also. Everyone, every saintly person, should be anxious to bring in peace in the world. But we must know the process. According to Bhagavad-gita, the idea of peace is... Krsna says,
bhoktaram yajna-tapasam
sarva-loka-mahesvaram
suhrdam sarva-bhutanam
jnatva mam santim rcchati
[Bg. 5.29]
People can be peaceful by knowing three things. If he perfectly understands only three things, then he'll become peaceful. What is that? Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam. All the sacrifices, austerities, penances, whatever people are undertaking for perfection, the enjoyer of such activities, Krsna says, "I am." "I am." Just like your activities. This is also a kind of austerities. Your artistic songs, they have become popular because you have undergone some austerities. You have come to the perfection. That requires penance and austerities. Or any scientific discovery, that requires austerities. So every nice thing presented in the world, that requires austerity. Very devout, painstaking. Then it becomes successful. That is called yajna. Tapasya. So Krsna says, "The result of the tapasya enjoyer, I am." He is claiming. "The result of your tapasya should come to Me." Then you'll be satisfied. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29]. People are claiming, "This is my England," and "This is my India," "This is my Germany," "This is my China." No. Everything belongs to God, Krsna. Sarva-loka. Not only on this planet. We have divided this planet in so many states. Actually this planet was not divided. From the history of Mahabharata we understand. This planet, there was only one king, one emperor, in India, Hastinapur. Even up to five thousand years ago, there was only one king, Maharaja Pariksit, one flag. And he came out for touring over his kingdom, and he found somebody near Sindh, a black man killing a cow. And he immediately arrested him: "Oh, in my kingdom you are killing cow?" So actually the whole planet was under one flag, one suzerainty. Gradually it has become small, small, small, small, small. Just like in our, very recently, twenty years ago, India became divided, Pakistan and Hindustan. Actually India was one, but we see now it is Pakistan. And some day another "stan" will be divided. So this is going on. So sarva-loka, in all planets, all the planets, actually that is God's place. Nobody's place. We come here empty-handed; we go empty-handed. How we can claim? Suppose you have given me this place to stay. I stay for one week, and if I claim, "Oh, this is my room," is that very nice thing? (laughs) There will be immediately some disagreement, trouble. But you have kindly spared this room. I am living here. I can comfortably live, enjoy. And when my necessity... When I go, there is no trouble. Similarly, we come here in the kingdom of God empty-handed; we go empty-handed. Why we trouble that "This is my property, this is my country, this is my world, this is my planet"? Why we claim like that? Is it not insanity? Wherefrom the claim comes? So Krsna says that sarva-loka-mahesvaram: "I am the Supreme Lord of every place." And suhrdam sarva-bhutanam [Bg. 5.29]. And He is the real friend of every living entity. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. As a friend, He is sitting within your heart. He's so nice friend. In this material world we make friendship. It breaks. Or the friend lives somewhere, and I live somewhere. But He's so nice friend that He's living within, with me and within my heart. He is so nice friend. Sarva-bhutanam. He's not only selected friend. No. Even the most insignificant creature, he is living there. Paramatma. So if these three things are understood clearly, then he becomes peaceful. This is the peace formula. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita and Vedic literature. Simply one has to learn. Just like in arithmetic. There is all mathematical calculation, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, this or that, fraction. One has to learn. So Bhagavad-gita is so nice book and it is accepted. Not that because we are preaching Krsna consciousness, we are advocating for Bhagavad... No. It is accepted by scholarly section, religious section, not only in India, but all over the world. Perhaps you know. In every country there are thousands of Bhagavad-gita translation, in every language, in English, in French, in German, all languages. And even Mohammedans... Of course, scholarly Mohammedans, they also read very nicely Bhagavad-gita. I know one Mohammedan professor in India. He was a great devotee of Lord Krsna. He did not disclose that he was a devotee, but he was observing Janmastami fasting day and he was writing one article on Krsna every Janmastami day. There are many. They read. And in our childhood... Not childhood, we were young man at that time. So one Englishman was a tenant in Calcutta, my friend's house. So he was vacating the house. We went to take possession of that house, and he had many books, and there was a book, Bhagavad-gita. So that, my friend, Mr. Mullick, he was a little astonished that "He is Englishman, he's Christian. How is that, he has got Bhagavad-gita?" So he was touching that book, and that gentleman thought that "He is my landlord. He may like that book." So he immediately said, "Oh, Mr. Mullick, I cannot present that book to you. This is my life and soul." He said like that. So Bhagavad-gita is accepted by scholarly section, by philosophers. So I think people should have one scripture, one God, one mantra, and one activity. One God, Krsna. One scripture, Bhagavad-gita. And one mantra, Hare Krsna. And one activity, to serve Krsna. That's all. There will be peace. There will be actually peace all over the world. So I request you to, at least to understand this philosophy to your best knowledge. And if you think that is nice, you take up. You are also willing to give something to the world. So you try this. You have read our books, this Bhagavad-gita As It Is? No.
John Lennon: I've read bits of the Bhagavad-gita. I don't know which version it was. There's so many different translations.
Prabhupada: There are different translations. Therefore I have given this edition, Bhagavad-gita As It Is. There are interpretations. In many translations they have got interpretations. Not only in other parts of the world, but in our own country also. Just like Mahatma Gandhi. He was a great man. He has also interpreted. But the point is interpretation where required. Now, here is a fountain pen box. Everyone knows this is a fountain pen box. But if I say, "No, this is something else." That is my interpretation. Is that very nice thing? (Chuckling) Similarly, interpretation is required when things are not understood clearly. If everybody can understand this box is a fountain pen box, where is the necessity of interpretation? This is the first thing. So Bhagavad-gita is so clear. It is just like sunlight. Sunlight does not require any other lamp. For example, I'll give you, in the first verse,
dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre
samaveta yuyutsavah
mamakah pandavas caiva
kim akurvata sanjaya
[Bg. 1.1]
The, dhrtarastra uvaca. The father of Duryodhana is asking his secretary, Sanjaya. His secretary's name was Sanjaya. "Sanjaya, my boys..." Mamakah. Mamakah means "my sons," and pandava, "the sons of my younger brother." His younger brother's name was Pandu, and therefore his sons are known as Pandava. So mamaka, pandava. "My sons and my younger brother's sons, they assembled together for fighting." Yuyutsava. Yuyutsava means "with fighting spirit." And dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1], on the place known as Kuruksetra, which is a place of pilgrimage, dharma-ksetra. Kim akurvata: "After assembling there, what did they do?" That was his question. Now, this Kuruksetra place is still existing in India. You have been in India? No.
John Lennon: Have I been there?
Prabhupada: You have been there?
John Lennon: Yes. Not to that place. Hrishikesh we went to.
Prabhupada: Oh, Hrishikesh. Hrishikesh is also one of the pilgrimage. And there is similarly Kuruksetra near Delhi. Still that place is there. And that is a place of pilgrimage from the Vedic times. In the Vedas also it is stated, kuru-ksetre dharmam yajayet. If you want to function in a religious ceremony, just go to Kuruksetra. So it is a place of pilgrimage. Now the name is there. The adjective dharma-ksetra, it is from Vedic age. Then the Pandavas and the Kauravas, they are historical persons. The history is there, Mahabharata. Then where is the question of interpreting Kuruksetra as "this body," and the Pandavas as "the senses"? Where do you get this opportunity to interpret? So these things are going on. But we object, "Why should you interpret in that way when the facts are there?" That means Bhagavad-gita is very popular book. One has got his own philosophy. He wants to prove it through Bhagavad-gita. This is going on. There are so many interpretations, 664. Everyone thinks that "I can interpret in my own way." Why? Why this should be? We say, "No. You cannot interpret." Then what is the authority of Bhagavad-gita? The author of Bhagavad-gita did not leave it for being interpreted by a third-class man. He is Krsna, the Supreme Lord. He said everything clearly. Why an ordinary man should interpret His word? That is our objection. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gita As It Is. The MacMillan Company wanted to shorten. (Chuckling) Because they are merchants. They wanted to minimize. Otherwise the book was very big. They wanted to make it only four hundred. Therefore half of the slokas was not nicely explained. But next time we are going to publish in large and revised edition of Bhagavad-gita As It Is. We must explain everything. So the Bhagavad-gita is very, very high-class philosophy and theology. Social, political, science -- everything is there. It is very nice. And everything is clear. It is explained by Krsna. So this Krsna consciousness movement means to present Bhagavad-gita as it is. That's all. We have not manufactured anything.
Devotee: Come in.
Devotee: Hare Krsna.
John Lennon: This is Don's wife Jill who lives here with us too.
Prabhupada: Oh, very glad to see you. Be happy and make all others happy. That is Krsna consciousness. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. That is Vedic idea. Everyone be happy. That is the benediction. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says also the same thing, that let this Krsna consciousness movement be preached in every village, in every town of the world. People will be happy. That is His foretelling. So any missions, any high ideals, should be preached just to make everyone happy. Because in the material existence, there is no happiness. That is a fact. There cannot be any happiness. This place is not meant for happiness because in the Bhagavad-gita you'll find the Lord Himself says this is a place, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It is a place of miseries, this material world. And asasvatam, and temporary. Everything is temporary. Even if you accept, "All right. Whatever miserable is there, I'll accept this," that is also, has no value. Even if you accept, nature will not allow you to accept it and remain there. Asasvatam. You have to leave. So Krsna says, mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah: [Bg. 8.15] "If somebody comes to Me, then he hasn't got to return back to this miserable condition of life which is not only miserable but temporary." So we should understand that. Nature is so cruel. In America, President Kennedy, he was thought to be the most fortunate man, happy man, young man, was elected President, nice wife, children, honor all over the world -- (snaps finger) -- within a second, finished. Temporary. Now what is his condition? Where he is? If life is eternal, if living entity is eternal, where he has gone? What he is doing? Is he happy or he is distressed? Or he's born in America or China? Nobody can say. But it is a fact that as living entity, he's eternal, he's existing. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita philosophy. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. After destruction of this body the living entity is not destroyed. He is there. That we can understand. Just like in your childhood, you had a small body. That body is no more, but you are existing. So it is natural, when this body will not exist, I will exist in another body. It is not very difficult to understand. So this theory that body is eternal..., soul is eternal and body is temporary, that's a fact. Therefore this life, this present life, is meant for manufacturing the next body. That is Vedic knowledge. We are creating... Just like a boy. He is studying very nicely. So he's creating next body, a very educated young body. By education he can get nice job, nice place, nice position. So he's creating his next body. Similarly, we are creating our next body according to our karma. So Krsna says that "You create a body so that you can come to Me." Mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam. The whole Vedic philosophy is that if you want to go to some planet -- just like people are trying to go to moon planet. So you have to create a body like that. You cannot go in this body. They're attempting to go with this body. That will be failure. It will be not possible. In every planet the atmosphere, the..., everything is different. So you have to create a different body to go to a particular type of planet. There are millions and thousands of planets. Moon planet is one of them. Krsna says,
yanti deva-vrata devan
pitrn yanti pitr-vratah
bhutejya yanti bhutani
mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam
[Bg. 9.25]
(chuckling) Mad-yajino: "Those who are in Krsna consciousness, they'll come to Me." And what is the benefit of going to Krsna? He says, mam upetya: "If anyone comes to Me," mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15], "he does not come back again to this miserable condition." And asasvatam, temporary. Why? Samsiddhim paramam gatah. Oh, he has attained the highest perfection, to go back to Krsna, mad-yajino 'pi mam, "one who comes to Me." So this is the greatest benediction to the human society, to train them to go back to Krsna and dance there with Krsna in rasa-lila. You have seen Krsna's rasa-lila dancing? You have not seen?
John Lennon: Which? This picture?
Gurudasa: Rasa-lila dancing with the gopis. That's the..., with Radha. Dancing with Radha. Pictures like that.
John Lennon: Walls of the temple room?
Gurudasa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we can go there. Join with Krsna and dance happily without any botheration.
Hayagriva : Haribol.
Prabhupada: (laughs) We can have so many connection with Krsna, as friend, as servant, as parents, as lover, whatever you like. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. You cultivate that consciousness, how you like Krsna. He is prepared to accept you in that capacity. And that makes a solution of all problems. Here nothing is permanent, nothing is blissful, and nothing is full of knowledge. Here... This year we held examination on bhakti-sastri, and here is the answer of a girl, Himavati. She has written very nice. I have read it. So we are training these boys and girls to Krsna consciousness according to the Krsna science. Anyone can take advantage of it. It is a very nice thing. So you also try to understand, and if it is nice, you take it up. You are after something very nice. Is my proposal unreasonable? (chuckles) You are all intelligent boys. Try to understand it.
Gurudasa: Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: And you have got a very good talent, music. Na vidya sangita uttamam. The Vedic mantras were all through music. Sama Veda. Sama Veda is full of music.
yam brahma-varunendra-rudra-
stunvanti divyaih stavair
vedaih sangopada-kramopanisadair
gayanti yam samagah
Samagah. Samagah means the followers of Sama Veda. Gayanti. They are always in music. Through musical vibration they are approaching the Supreme. Samagah. Gayanti. Gayanti means singing. So Vedic mantras are sung. This whole Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, can be sung very nicely. And it is Vedic mantra, chanting. Simply by hearing the vibration, people will be benefited. Even they do not understand. You have got that, this mantra you chant? You just play it. [break] Huh?
Devotee : Begin any time.
Prabhupada: (singing slowly:)
na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah
[SB 7.5.31]
matir na krsne paratah svato va
mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam
adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram
punah punas carvita-carvananam
[SB 7.5.30]
matir na krsne paratah svato va
mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam
adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram
punah punas carvita-carvananam
[SB 7.5.30]
na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah
[SB 7.5.31]
naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim
sprsaty anarthapagamo yad-arthah
mahiyasam pada-rajo 'bhisekam
niskincananam na vrnita yavat
[SB 7.5.32]
na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah
[SB 7.5.31]
Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum... [break] The whole effort here is [break] Veda mantra. Sa jnata na vrtti. Vedanta-sutra-sabdat. Simply by transcendental vibration of sound, everything can be achieved. (long pause) What kind of philosophy you are following? May I ask?
John Lennon: Following?
Yoko Ono: We don't follow anything. We are just living.
George Harrison: We've done meditation. Or I do my meditation. I have a mantra meditation.
Prabhupada: This is also mantra.
John Lennon: It's not the song, though.
George Harrison: No, no. It's chanting.
John Lennon: We heard it from Maharishi. A mantra each.
Prabhupada: His mantra is not public.
George Harrison: Not out loud. No.
John Lennon: No. It's a secret. (laughs)
Prabhupada: There is a version by Ramanujacarya. Ramanujacarya, he was a great acarya of this Vaisnava sampradaya. His spiritual master gave him mantra: "My dear boy, you chant this mantra silently. Nobody can hear. It is very..." So then he asked, "What is the effect of this mantra?" He said, "By chanting this mantra, by meditation, you'll get liberation." So he immediately went out and in a public, big meeting he said that "You chant this mantra. You'll be all liberated." (laughter) So he came back to his spiritual master, and his spiritual master was very angry that "I told you that you should chant silently." He said, "Yes, I have committed offense. So whatever punishment you like, you can give me. But because you told me that this mantra will liberate, I have given it publicly. Let everyone hear and be liberated. Let me go to hell. I don't mind. I have disobeyed your order. Let me go to hell. I am prepared. But by this chanting mantra, if anyone is liberated, let it be publicly distributed." His spiritual master embraced him: "You are greater than me." You see? So if a mantra has so power, why it should be secret? It should be distributed. People are suffering. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Chant this Hare Krsna mantra. Anyone who will hear... Even the birds and beasts will hear and they will be liberated." That's all.
Yoko Ono: If Hare Krsna is such a strong, powerful mantra, is there any reason to chant anything else? For instance, you talked about songs and many different mantras. Is there any point in chanting other songs or mantra?
Prabhupada: No, no. These mantras are also... But Hare Krsna mantra is specially recommended for this age. And the Vedic mantras, they are also chanted, I told you, with musical, tampura, and they sit down and chant. Narada Muni, he's chanting always. So chanting through musical instruments, mantras, it is not new introduction. It is from time immemorial. And Hare Krsna mantra, especially in this age, that is recommended in many Vedic literature, Brahmanda Purana, Kali-santarana Upanisad, Agni Purana, like that. And apart from the statement in the Vedic literature, Lord Caitanya Himself, He preached this mantra. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna... And people, public, followed Him. Yes. [break] So anything... Just like a scientist. When he discovers something, it becomes a public property. People may take advantage of it. Similarly, if mantra has got potency, all people should take advantage of it. Why it should be secret?
George Harrison: All people can get the mantras that we have, but it's just they must get it from somebody else. We can't give it to them, but it is available for everybody.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mantra, if it is valuable, it is valuable for everybody. Why it should be for a particular person?
John Lennon: If all mantras are... All mantras just the name of God. Whether it's a secret mantra or an open mantra, it's all the name of God. So it doesn't really make much difference, does it, which one you sing?
Prabhupada: No. Just like in drug shop they sell all medicine for disease, curing disease. But still, you have to take doctor's prescription to take a particular type of medicine. They will not supply you. If you go to a drug shop and you say, "I am diseased. You give me any medicine," that is not... He'll ask you, "Where is your prescription?" So similarly, in this age, in Kali-yuga age, this mantra, Hare Krsna mantra, is recommended in the sastras, and great stalwart -- we consider Him the incarnation of Krsna-Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He preached this. Therefore our principle is everyone should follow. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We should follow the footprints of great authorities. That is our business. The Vedic mantra says, tarko 'pratisthah. If you simply try to argue and try to approach the Absolute, it is very difficult, simply by argument and reasoning, because our arguments and reason are limited because our senses are imperfect. [break] So tarko 'pratisthah srutayo vibhinnah. And scriptures, there are different kinds of scriptures. Nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. Philosophers, every philosopher has got a different opinion, and unless a philosopher defeats other philosopher, he cannot become a big philosopher. So therefore philosophical speculation also will not make a solution. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam. So it is very secret. Then how to get that secret thing? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You simply follow great personalities, how they have achieved success. So our, this Vaisnava philosophy is to follow the great personality, just like Krsna or Caitanya Mahaprabhu or acaryas of His succession, to take shelter of authority and follow. That is recommended in Vedas, that you follow great authorities. That will take you to the ultimate goal. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. So... Krsna also recommends in the Bhagavad-gita, Fourth Chapter, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. This science of Krsna consciousness was understood by disciplic succession. Parampara-praptam. Imam vivasvavate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: "My dear Arjuna, don't think that this Krsna consciousness science I am speaking to you is something new. No." Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "It is eternal, and first I spoke to sun-god." Vivasvate. Vivasvan manave prahuh: "And Vivasvan said to his son, Manu." Manur iksvakave 'bravit: "And Manu also transferred this knowledge to his son, Iksvaku." Evam parampara-praptam: [Bg. 4.2] "In this way, by disciplic succession, it is coming on." Sa kaleneha yogo nastah parantapa: "But in due course of time it is now broken. Therefore I am speaking to you again." So a mantra should be captured from the disciplic succession. According to Vedic injunction, sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah: "If the mantra does not come through disciplic succession, then it will not be active." Viphala. Mantras te viphalah. Viphala means "will not produce result." Mantras te viphalah matah. So mantra has to be received through the channel; then it will act. Mantra cannot be manufactured. Mantra must be from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through disciplic succession, channel. It has to be captured in that way, and then it will act. Sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. So according to our Vaisnava sampradaya, the mantra is coming down through four channels. One is coming through Lord Siva, one is coming through goddess Laksmi. Not one, different. One thing is coming in different channel. One through the channel of Brahma, one through the channel of Lord Siva, one through the channel of Laksmi, and one through the channel of Kumaras. So they are called four sampradayas. So one has to take mantra, either of these four sampradayas. Then that mantra is active, and if we perform that mantra in that way, it will act. Sampradaya-vihina ye. And if one does not receive this mantra in either of these sampradaya, channels, then viphala, it will not act. It will not give fruit.
Yoko Ono: If the mantra itself has such power, does it matter where you receive it, where you take it?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is a fact. The example is given just like milk. Milk is nutritious. That's a fact. Everyone knows. But if the milk is touched through the tongue of a serpent, it is no more nutritious. It is poison.
Yoko Ono: Well, milk is material.
Prabhupada: No, material. You want to understand through your material senses, we have to give...
Yoko Ono: Well, no. I don't have, you don't have to tell me material senses. I mean mantra is not material. It should be something spiritual, and therefore nobody can spoil it, I don't think. I mean, I wonder if anybody can spoil something that is not material.
Prabhupada: But the thing is that if you don't receive the mantra through the proper channel, it may not be mantra.
John Lennon: But how would you know, anyway? How are you able to tell, anyway? I mean, for any of your disciples or us or anybody that goes to any spiritual master, how are we to tell...
Prabhupada: Not any spiritual master.
John Lennon: True master. How are we to tell one from the other?
Prabhupada: It is not that any spiritual master. Sampradaya. Sampradaya means a particular line of disciplic succession.
John Lennon: But, you see, Maharishi said exactly the same thing about his mantra's coming from the Vedic, with seemingly as much authority as you, and he was probably right. So how... It's like having too many fruits on a plate, and you can't only eat two of them.
Prabhupada: No. If mantra is coming down in that way, then it is potency; the potency is there.
John Lennon: But Hare Krsna is the best one.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yoko Ono: Well, if Hare Krsna is the best one, what is the reason why we have to bother to even say anything else other than this one?
Prabhupada: You don't require to bother to say anything else. We say that Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient for one's perfection.
George Harrison: Surely isn't it like flowers? If somebody may prefer roses and somebody may like carnations better... Isn't it really a matter for the devotee, that one person may find Hare Krsna is more beneficial to his spiritual progress, and yet somebody else, some other mantra may be more beneficial? Isn't it like just a matter of taste? Like judging a flower. They're all flowers, but some people may like one better than the other.
Prabhupada: But still, there is distinction. The rose flower is considered better than simply a flower without any flavor.
Yoko Ono: In that case I can't...
Prabhupada: Just try to understand this flower example.
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is all right. You are attracted by some flower, I am attracted by some flower, but amongst the flowers there are distinctions. There are many flowers which has no flavor and many flower has flavor.
Yoko Ono: Is that flower that has flavor better than...
Prabhupada: So therefore attraction for any flower is not the solution of the question. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita, ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Krsna is Supreme Absolute. Anyone wants Him in any way, He also presents Himself in that way. Just like the same example. If you want a yellow flower, never mind whether there is any scent or any flavor or not, so that flower is there. It is for you. That's all. But if anyone wants rose flower, Krsna gives him rose flower. But when you make a comparative study which one is better, then rose will be considered better. (chuckling) So ye yatha mam prapadyante. That means the Absolute is realized... Of course, varieties there are, but the original division of the Absolute is three: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. Now, Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan is the same Absolute. Different names. The jnanis, or the empiric philosophers, they reach or they aim at Brahman, impersonal Brahman. The yogis, they, I mean to say, focus on the Supersoul, Paramatma. And the devotees, they aim at Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, this Krsna and the Supersoul and the impersonal Brahman, they are not different. They are light. They are not darkness. But in the light also, there is difference The example is given: just like sunlight, sun globe and the sun-god. Everywhere you find light. In the sunshine there is light. In sun globe there is light. And what to speak of the predominating deity in the sun-globe? He also must be light; otherwise wherefrom this light comes? So so far light is concerned, everywhere there. But you cannot say because sunshine has come through your window in your room, you cannot say the sun has come. That will be mistake. Sun is many, many miles away. But so far light is concerned, now there is question of degrees of light, intensity of light. So the degrees of spiritual realization in Brahman, degrees of spiritual realization in Paramatma, and degrees of spiritual realization in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are different.
Yoko Ono: But you said about if the milk goes through a serpent's mouth it will produce poison, and, for instance, George just told us about a week ago a very interesting story about a man who had a face of Christ, and in twenty years' time he had a face of Judah. And the Catholic Church and all those churches first probably had good words, and now it's deteriorating. Now, how would you decide, really, that brahmanas are always in a pure state that you speak of, that they would never turn into serpents?
Prabhupada: That you have to become a serious student.
Yoko Ono: Well, I mean, what do you mean by serious student? Maybe everybody, all of us are serious anyway. I mean, we're born serious or born, you know, unserious.
Prabhupada: Then you must know what is distinction between Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan, if you are serious student.
Yoko Ono: But does it depend on knowledge? I mean, the final judgement that you make?
Prabhupada: Everything depends on knowledge. Without knowledge how can we make progress? Student means to acquire knowledge. Serious student means to acquire knowledge.
Yoko Ono: But not always the knowledgeable one are the ones who...
Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot know completely. That is because our knowledge is very imperfect. But still, so far our knowledge is concerned, as far as possible, we should try to understand. Avan manasa gocarah. This Absolute is so great and unlimited that it is not possible for us to know Him completely. That is not possible. Our senses does not allow. But as far as it is possible, because, after all, we are part and parcel of the Absolute, so all the qualities of the Absolute are there in us, but it is in minute quantity. So that minute quantity is also very great in comparison to material knowledge. Material knowledge is practically no knowledge. It is covered. But when one is liberated, liberated knowledge is certainly very, very great than material knowledge. So Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. These are the statements of Bhagavata. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. It is... Sabdyate means sounded as Bhagavan, Paramatma, and Brahman. Now, what are the difference or degrees of knowledge? Brahman knowledge, Paramatma knowledge, and Bhagavan knowledge. The same thing. The knowledge of sunshine, the knowledge of sun globe, and the knowledge of this predominating deity in the sun globe. So knowledge of sunshine is not knowledge of the predominating deity of the sun globe. There is another example in this connection. Just like if you see one hill from a long-distant place, first of all you see just like it is a cloud. Then, if you proceed further, you'll see something green. And if you enter into that hill you'll see, oh, there are so many varieties. There are animals, there are men, there are trees. But from the distant, you'll see just like a cloud. So although the same thing... Similarly, Absolute, when visioned from the Brahman point of view, it is just like cloud. Absolute when visioned as Paramatma, it is just like something green. And Absolute when realized as the Supreme Person, it is just like you enter into the hill and see everything in detail. So although the focus is the same, the Brahmavadi and the Paramatmavadi and the devotee's focus is the same, but due to their respective position the realization is different. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Therefore Bhagavad-gita you'll see,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
[Bg. 10.8]
"I am the source of everything." This sarvam means Paramatma, Brahman, everything. These are clearly stated. Brahmano 'ham pratistha. So Brahman knowledge or Paramatma knowledge is within Krsna knowledge. If one has got Krsna knowledge he has got Paramatma knowledge, Brahman knowledge. He has got the effect of yogic principle, meditation, he has got the effect of empiric philosophical speculation, and he is situated personally in the service of the Lord. So if you make comparative study, then this Krsna knowledge includes all knowledge. The Vedas also confirm it, yasmin sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. If you understand the Supreme, then all knowledge becomes automatically revealed. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. And in the Bhagavad-gita also it is stated, "Knowing this, you'll have nothing to know anymore." In the ninth chapter there is. So first of all we have to seriously study. Therefore I'm asking that to become serious student, what is the difference between Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan? Paramatma is localized aspect of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. And Brahman is the effulgence of the Absolute. And Parambrahma, or Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is Krsna. So if you have full Krsna knowledge, then you have got Brahman knowledge and Paramatma knowledge. But if you have got simply Brahman knowledge or Paramatma knowledge, you have no Krsna knowledge. The same example can be... If you are in the sunshine, then you do not know what is sun globe and the predominating deity in the sun. But if you are by the side of the sun deity, you know what is sun globe and what is sunshine. Therefore impartially it is recommended that one should know the science of the Absolute Truth, or Krsna. That will include all other knowledge. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. This is also a verse from Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, "After many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when one is actually wise, jnanavan..." Jnanavan means has attained wisdom. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "He surrenders unto Me." Why? Vasudevah sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] "He understands, 'Oh, Vasudeva, Krsna is everything.' " Sa mahatma sudurlabhah: "Such great soul is very rare." And in the tenth chapter,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
[Bg. 10.8]
"I am the origin. I am the source of everything. Everything emanates from Me. One who knows this science perfectly, he is budha, he is intelligent, and he becomes engaged in Krsna consciousness." And the Vedanta-sutra also, the first aphorism is athato brahma jijnasa: "Now it is the time for inquiry about the Absolute, Brahman." So what is Brahman? The next aphorism is janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "Brahman, the Absolute, is that from whom everything is coming, emanating." That Absolute is personally saying, mattah sarvam pravartate: "Everything is emanating from Me." So if you study Vedic literature very scrutinizingly, then you come to this conclusion, that Krsna is the Supreme. Therefore Krsna consciousness will include all other knowledge. Just like if you have got million dollar, ten dollar is included, five hundred dollar is included, thousand dollar is included. But one who has got ten dollar or five hundred dollar, he cannot claim that he has got million dollar. Similarly, Krsna science means full spiritual knowledge. That is accepted by the acaryas. And even you are speaking of Maharsi. He has written some book on Bhagavad-gita?
John Lennon: Yes. That's the one we've read.
Prabhupada: So why he's taking Krsna's book as authority? Bhagavad-gita is Krsna's book. Everyone knows. Why he's taking Krsna's book?
George Harrison: Well, he didn't. He just translated it into English.
Prabhupada: Why? Unless he has got some respect for that book?
John Lennon: But I've also read another, part of another translation by Yogananda, Paramahamsa Yogananda.
Prabhupada: Everyone will have to take Krsna's book first to prove their authority.
Yoko Ono: But, er... What...
Prabhupada: Vivekananda has taken, Aurobindo has taken, Dr. Radhakrishnan has taken, Mahatma Gandhi... There are thousands and thousands. So why do they take Bhagavad-gita?
George Harrison: So that we can read it in English.
Prabhupada: No, no. It is not the question of English. It is the question of the thoughts. English it may be or Parsee it may be. That doesn't matter. Why do they take shelter of the thoughts of Bhagavad-gita unless they accept Bhagavad-gita as authority? Why they quote from Bhagavad-gita? So why not directly Bhagavad-gita? If Bhagavad-gita is the authority for everyone, why not Bhagavad-gita as it is? That is our proposition.
George Harrison: But Bhagavad-gita as it is is Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: No, we have made English.
George Harrison: Yes, but they all make it English.
John Lennon: But that must be also a translation, mustn't it? Whoever puts it into English. I mean...
Prabhupada: So you also read any Bhagavad-gita translation only. You don't read the original.
George Harrison: Well, which is the original? It's the same as the Bible.
Prabhupada: Original is there. Origin is Sanskrit.
Yoko Ono: It's in Sanskrit, but we don't read Sanskrit.
John Lennon: Yes, but it's pointless, me reading Sanskrit, because I don't understand Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to take translation.
George Harrison: So then there's all, a hundred translations.
John Lennon: And interpretations.
George Harrison: Which is again like all the roses and all the different flowers. It's a matter of taste as to which one. Because everybody claims their version is the best. All the versions I've read, they all say... And sometimes I get something from one which I don't get from something else.
Devotee: Did you ever read any without any commentary at all? Just straight?
George Harrison: Just straight translation?
Devotee: Without any commentary.
George Harrison: Just the Sanskrit, you mean?
Devotee: No. Just the translation.
George Harrison: Well, that's really what they are, you know. They all have a translation. Some of them have a commentary as well, on top of that. But just again the translations, you know, it depends on who's translating as to what the translation is.
Devotee: That's all right. So you have to go through an authority. Someone who's...
John Lennon: But how do you know one authority from the other?
George Harrison: The world is full of authorities, really, you know. (Prabhupada chuckling)
Yoko Ono: There's five hundred authorities, you know, who...
John Lennon: I found that the best thing for myself is to take a little bit from here and a little bit from there and a little bit from there. (Prabhupada chuckles)
Yoko Ono: I mean, we're not just saying that. We want to ask your advice on that. In other words, what is your answer to that. Your saying there's five hundred versions.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is seven hundred verses.
Yoko Ono: All right, so seven hundred. I don't know. But what I mean is you use the word authority, saying why would he translate that into English without authority? Now, what is the authority and who has the authority?
Prabhupada: Authority is the original text.
Yoko Ono: Yes, but everybody's translating from the original text, I'm sure you know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yoko Ono: So what's the difference between one and the other?
Prabhupada: Therefore we say that sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te viphala matah. If we then don't take from the disciplic succession of the authority... Just like Krsna. Now, take for example. We have explained this in our introduction, that nobody is authority. Don't care. Krsna is authority because Bhagavad-gita is spoken by Krsna. That you cannot deny. Can you deny that?
Yoko Ono: Is Krsna translated...
Prabhupada: Krsna is authority. Krsna is authority.
Yoko Ono: Yes, all right. Did He translate it into English?
Prabhupada: Just hear me.
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: Krsna is authority, you accept?
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: Is that all right?
John Lennon: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then you see what Krsna says. That is authority. Why should you hear anyone else? Now, what Krsna has said, to understand that, that you have to search out if you are serious student.
John Lennon: How do we know if somebody else, Yogananda, Maharsi, and all these different people that have translated it, how are we to tell that their version isn't Krsna's word from your version?
Prabhupada: Therefore I say if you are serious student, then you study Sanskrit, original.
John Lennon: Study Sanskrit? Oh, now you're talking.
George Harrison: But Vivekananda said that books and rituals and dogmas and temples are secondary details, anyway. He said they're not the most important thing, anyway. You don't have to read the book in order to have the perception.
Prabhupada: Then why Vivekananda wrote so many books? (laughter)
George Harrison: Well, it's the same as in the Gita.
Prabhupada: No, no. He said there is no use of books. Then why he wrote so many books?
George Harrison: But in Hrishikesh, when we meditated for a long time, one man got tired of meditation, and he thought... He made the excuse to read the Gita so he could come out of meditation, and he opened the Gita and it said, "Don't read books. Meditate."
Prabhupada: Who says?
George Harrison: The Gita said it.
Prabhupada: "Don't read books"?
George Harrison: It said, "Don't read books. Meditate."
Prabhupada: Where?
Yoko Ono: No, but you see, you...
Prabhupada: He said, brahma-sutra-padais caiva hetumadbhir viniscitaih [Bg. 13.5]. He refers that "This scientific knowledge, the Absolute Truth, is explained very nicely in Brahma-sutra, Vedanta-sutra." He refers to the book. Another place Krsna says,
yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama-karatah
na sa siddhim avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim
[Bg. 16.23]
"Anyone who does not follow the scriptural injunction, his attempt will be failure. He'll never be happy. And what to speak of being promoted to the spiritual world.?" These things are there. How you can say Krsna has not recommended to read books?
Yoko Ono: Then, in that sense, you see, for instance... I see the same pattern in what you have said. For instance, you said that Hare Krsna is the most superpowerful word, and if that is true, then why do you bother to utter any other words? I mean, is it necessary? And why do you encourage us, saying that we're songwriters and all,...
Prabhupada: No...
Yoko Ono: ...to write any song but Hare Krsna?
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna mantra is cleansing process.
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupada: So actually one who chants Hare Krsna regularly, he hasn't got to do anything. Actually it is the position. He doesn't require to read any book.
Yoko Ono: Yes. Then why do you say that it's all right and all that? I mean is it a compromise or what?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Yoko Ono: I mean the fact that we are doing songwriting and all that. It's a waste of time, isn't it? Without Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, not waste of time. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was chanting simply. Even He was criticized by great sannyasis that "You have taken sannyasa. You do not read Vedanta. You are simply chanting and dancing." He was criticized. But the thing is, when Caitanya Mahaprabhu met such stalwart scholars, He was not lagging behind. Similarly, Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient. There is no doubt about it. But if somebody wants to understand this Hare Krsna mantra through philosophy, through study, through Vedanta, we are not lacking. We have got books. It is not that Hare Krsna mantra is insufficient, therefore we are recommending books. No. Not like that. Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient. But... Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was chanting, but when there was a Prakasananda Sarasvati, when there was a Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, oh, He was ready to argue with him with Vedanta. So we should not be dumb. If somebody comes to argue with Vedanta philosophy, then we must be prepared. When we are preaching, there will be so many people, different types of people will come. Otherwise Hare Krsna mantra is sufficient. Sufficient. It does not require any education, any reading, anything. Simply chanting Hare Krsna and you get the highest perfection. That's a fact.
Syamasundara: You were saying earlier today that we can also supplement our Krsna consciousness while we're working, hammering the nails.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: So chanting along with devotional service, performing our duties while concentrating on Krsna, is also part of the process, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Yes. Anything, any way. The whole idea is manah krsne nivesayet. Mind should be fixed up in Krsna. That is the process. Either you go through philosophy or through arguments or through chanting. Any way. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita. Yoginam api sarvesam [Bg. 6.47]. Of all kinds of yogis. In the... You might have read it. Yoginam api sarvesam. I think Maharsi has translated this Bhagavad-gita, and in the sixth chapter...? You have read it?
George Harrison: Oh, his translation of Gita?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: Sixth chapter, he's asking.
George Harrison: Yes. I haven't read all of it. Part of it.
Prabhupada: So in the sixth chapter, last verse, you'll find yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatena... You have got our Bhagavad-gita As It Is here? No? How is that, you don't keep Bhagavad-gita? You'll find it is clearly stated that all yogis, the one yogi whose mind is fixed up in Krsna, he is first-class yogi. Yoginam api sarvesam. Sarvesam, of all yogis. There are different kinds of yogis. So yoginam api sarvesam mad-gata: "One whose mind is fixed up in Me," or Krsna, antaratmana, "within the heart," sraddhavan, "and is devotee," and bhajate, "and serves Me, oh," sa me yuktatamo matah, "he is the first-class yogi." Tama. Tama means most, supermost. Yuktatamo. Yogi, better yogi and the supermost yogi.
John Lennon: Whose is that little purple paperback Gita that we all have? A light grey purple?
Devotee : That's the one.
John Lennon: Oh, that's the one? I've got that in my office. There's another one by that guy, that Spanish guy? (indistinct)
Syamasundara: One thing that Prabhupada was explaining, I think, that didn't quite get cleared up was how do we discern which translation of the Gita is most authoritative. Well, he answered when he said that Krsna is the authority. So we have to take it in a channel from Krsna, and there are only four lines of disciplic succession that come from Krsna. And of these, only one is existing now, or is it two?
Yoko Ono: What do you mean by "channel"? Is it through hereditary or what?
Syamasundara: Lines of disciplic succession. Yes, it's hereditary. Swamiji's spiritual master...
Prabhupada: Just like channel you'll understand very easily. You send some money order to your friend. So from which channel he'll receive? He'll receive through the post office, not through any other channel. So if the postal peon delivers it, you are confident, "Yes, the money has come." So why you give the importance to the postal peon? Because he's representative of the post office. Similarly, Krsna is the original authority. So the Krsna's representative is the authority. And who is Krsna's representative? Who is a devotee of Krsna. So therefore the devotee of Krsna is authority, at least of Bhagavad-gita. So you have to receive through the devotee of Krsna about Bhagavad-gita. One who does not know anything about Krsna, how he can preach Bhagavad-gita? This is common sense.
Jill: Will you excuse me? I must put my baby to bed. Good night.
Prabhupada: (Chuckles) Take some prasadam.
Jill: Oh, thank you.
John Lennon: Well, who says who's in the line of descent? You know, I mean, it's just like royalty. Who's who? (All talk at once)
Yoko Ono: That's what I was talking about.
John Lennon: I mean Yogananda claims...
George Harrison: His guru's, guru's, guru's...
John Lennon: All his guru's, guru's, guru's, gurus, like that. Maharsi claimed all his guru's guru's gurus went back. I mean, how are we to know? I mean, it's a matter of just deciding, you know.
Prabhupada: But Maharsi does not say anything about Krsna.
George Harrison: Doesn't he? No, his guru is the Sankaracarya.
John Lennon: Which is Sankara's teaching? But they all talk about God, and Krsna's just a name for God, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Anyway, whatever he may be, he does not go up to Krsna. (chuckles)
George Harrison: Personality, anyway, of...
John Lennon: Well, that's what he used to say in exactly the same way, about anybody else.
Prabhupada: No, no. He cannot be because he does not speak about anything Krsna. A peon comes, he does not know anything about post office -- what kind of peon he is?
Yoko Ono: No, but his post office... He was talking about his post office.
Prabhupada: No, you cannot create post office. Post office one. Government post office.
Yoko Ono: Yes, of course. I'm sure there's only one post office.
Prabhupada: You cannot create that he is... Somebody says, "I belong to another post office." Then he is at once unauthorized. (Everyone talking at once)
Yoko Ono: No, no. He saying that his post office is the one post office.
Devotee: Then why... Obviously not satisfied yet with what they found in (indistinct) that post office. Why have you come here, then? If you have been satisfied with that... You have to test.
John Lennon: Yeah, we've gotta go around. Yoko never met Maharsi. We're asking advice of how to, you know, how to stop. You can go on forever. I know people that have been wandering around for years, seeking gurus and spiritual teachers. I mean it's doing them all quite well.
Prabhupada: Bring prasadam.
John Lennon: I mean, we can only judge on a material level by looking at your disciples and looking at other peoples' disciples and looking at ourselves, you know. And, of course, if there's thirty disciples, seven of them look fairly spiritual, another ten look okay, and the others just look as though they're having trouble... You know. So there's no...
Yoko Ono: It's the same thing.
John Lennon: We still have to keep sifting through like sand to see whose got the best matter, or...
Prabhupada: Try to understand this, that regarding authority, you say that how to find out the authority. To answer this question, Krsna is authority. There is no doubt. Because if Krsna is an authority, Maharsi takes also Krsna's book and Aurobindo takes Krsna's book, Vivekananda takes Krsna's book, Dr. Radhakrishnan takes Krsna's book. So Krsna is authority. Sankaracarya also takes Krsna's book. You know Sankaracarya's commentary on Krsna? And in that commentary he accepts, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28], sa bhagavan svayam krsnah: "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He accepts. You say that Maharsi accepts Sankaracarya. Sankaracarya accepts Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
George Harrison: Yes, but it's like the Bible which came...
Prabhupada: Now, don't go to Bible. We're talking of Krsna. (laughter) Just try to understand.
Yoko Ono: Yes, but, you see, the religion is bringing out (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Just see that Krsna is the authority. He's accepted by everyone. You say Maharsi belongs to the Sankara sampradaya. Sankaracarya accepts Krsna. Not as authority... He says, "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He says this very word in his commentary.
Gurudasa: Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam.
Prabhupada: So authority means one who has accepted Krsna as the Supreme Lord. Then he is authority.
Yoko Ono: Now, who said that?
Prabhupada: Everyone says. All authorities. Sankaracarya says. Ramanujacarya says. Those who are really authorities, those disciplic succession is going on. In India, there are five sects. Actually two sects. Vaisnava and Sankara. So the Vaisnava accept Krsna as the authority, and Sankara accepted Krsna authority. There are no third sect. Practically, actually, there is one sect, the Vaisnava. Anyway, later on, later ages, Sankaracarya established his sect. But Sankaracarya accepts that krsnas tu bhagavan svayam: [SB 1.3.28] "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," in his writing. And at his last stage of his life he said, "You rascal fools, what you are dealing with? That will not save you." Bhaja govindam: "You just worship Krsna." Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. Mudha-mate means "You rascal." (laughter)
John Lennon: Means what?
Gurudasa: "You rascal."
Prabhupada: "You rascal, just worship Krsna and become devotee of Krsna, Govinda."
bhaja govindam bhaja govindam
bhaja govindam mudha-mate
prapte sannihite kale
na hi na hi raksati dukrn-karane
"When your death will come, all this grammatical jugglery of words will not save you. Krsna can save you. So you bhaja govindam." That is instruction of Sankaracarya.
Yoko Ono: But every sect says that...
Prabhupada: No, there is no question, "every sect." Krsna is the center of every sect. If Krsna is the center, then there is no question of every sect. Only Krsna sect.
John Lennon: Does Krsna mean God?
Syamasundara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna means God, and God means Krsna.
John Lennon: So for the Bible or any other holy book, they all talk about one God, but they all have many ways of...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
George Harrison: Personalities.
John Lennon: Yes.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
John Lennon: It's still just the one Being everywhere, in all the books. But they all have... Why isn't Hare Krsna or something similar in the Bible, then? I mean, that's the only other one I know because I was brought up with the Bible.
Gurudasa: It is. In the 150th Psalm it says, "Praise the Lord with every breath. Praise the Lord with drum and flute."
John Lennon: But they haven't got very good tunes, you know. I mean, they haven't been passing on any good chants, have they?
Mukunda: They don't have the aural disciplic succession with the Bible. It's broken.
John Lennon: It's just a matter of archetype (?). I mean, would it be as effective to chant, "Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus, Hail Lord Jesus"?
Devotee: If you're sincere, sure.
John Lennon: But it's a waste of time of doing it unsincerely, isn't it?
Yoko Ono: Yeah, it depends on sincerity.
Prabhupada: No, no. Lord Jesus says that he is son of God. He's son of God.
Yamuna: Your cab's here, Syamasundara. Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: What is that? You want to hear? Come on, sit down. So there is no difference. Lord Jesus Christ says that he is son of God. So there is no quarrel between God and God's son. So he says that "Love God," and Krsna says, "Love Me." The same thing. (laughs) If you say that "You love me," and your wife says that "Love my husband," there is no difference of opinion.
Yoko Ono: But about the knowledge, I'm a bit worried about it, if you have to, you know, learn Sanskrit and all that, and that's the only way to get enlightenment... I mean, what do you do about people who are not sort of skillful in learning languages and things like that? Would that not at all... I mean, I thought that it...
John Lennon: It's translated, anyway.
Prabhupada: Translation is there.
John Lennon: So you've got to take a risk.
Yoko Ono: But he said, then why don't you go and...
John Lennon: So then you've got to take the risk of reading a translated one.
Gurudasa: So you see many devotees of the authority, and then you decide which is the most sincere devotee. And just like in the ninth chapter He says, "You will come to Me." Now, if I asked you for a glass of water and you poured it on the wall, I'd think you were silly. But if you brought it to me, then I knew you were in knowledge, we were having a reciprocal relationship. Therefore, if the devotee is saying, "Worship Krsna," and not putting so much of his own ideas in, but just saying, "Worship Krsna," all throughout, as Swamiji does, then you can know he's a sincere devotee.
Prabhupada: No, no. One thing you try to understand. Why these people, if Krsna is not the supreme authority, why they are taking Krsna's book and translating? Why don't you try to understand?
George Harrison: I'm not saying Krsna isn't the Supreme. I believe that.
Prabhupada: No, no. I mean to say, even there are other sects, as you say, Maharsi. They accept also indirectly Krsna as the supreme authority. Because if we say Maharsi belongs to Sankara sampradaya...
George Harrison: Yeah, but we had a misunderstanding before about the translation of the Sanskrit Gita into English, and I was saying that there's many versions, and I think we thought you were trying to say that your version, your translation, was the only authority and that the other translations... But we didn't really have understanding as to the identity of Krsna.
Prabhupada: That's all right. If you believe Krsna is the Supreme Lord, if that is your version, then you have to see who are much addicted to Krsna directly. For argument's sake. That these people are twenty-four hours chanting Krsna, and another person who has no, not a single word Krsna, how he can become devotee of Krsna? How he can become representative of Krsna, who does not utter even the name of Krsna? If Krsna is authority accepted, therefore who are directly addicted to Krsna, they are authorities. (Kirtanas follow, George Harrison leading) (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September
11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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