Yoga Student: ...to chant the
names of Nitai-Gauranga before we encourage them so much to chant the
maha-mantra?Prabhupada: No. Why? Now, what is the difference, Nitai-Gauranga
and Hare Krsna? Nitai-Gauranga and Hare Krsna, there is no difference.
Nitai-Gauranga is also nice. Whatever he finds convenient, let him
chant.
Yoga student: This country, which was, once at one time followed the
Aryan path of Zoroastrianism, which is now practices primarily Islam although
having absorbed many of the original elements in it. Do you have a
recommendation as to how people of this country might feel the grace of Krsna,
perhaps even within the forms of their own traditional practice?
Prabhupada:
What is that traditional practice?
Yoga student: They're in... Apart from
Zoroastrianism, the majority of traditional practice now is Islamic of the
Shiite sect.
Prabhupada: What is that philosophy?
Yoga student: That
involves the prayer of three to five times a day of the Shiist...
Prabhupada:
Prayer five times?
Yoga student: Well, it's the Islamic prayer five times a
day, but the Shiist compress it to three times. It's the same
prayer.
Prabhupada: Why?
Yoga student: Because they are permitted to say
two of the prayers at noon and two of the prayers in the evening at one time,
rather than spreading them through the afternoon and the...
Prabhupada: So
why they are disobeying the order of Muhammad?
Yoga student: Yes. The... They
follow... It's essentially the same practice as the...
Prabhupada: No, you
cannot amend on the words of Muhammad if you are a true Mussulman.
Yoga
student: I don't think they have to amend it. They're...
Prabhupada: Why?
There was five. Why they have made three? That is amendment. You cannot do
that.
Yoga student: It has been maintained that Ali..., that this was the
practice of Ali.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Yoga student: That Ali prayed
at noon, in the afternoon...
Atreya Rsi: Ali, the representative of
Muhammad.
Yoga student: He's the brother-in-law..., the son-in-law...
Hazrad(?) Ali.
Prabhupada: Ali, Ali. Ali Hussein. No.
Yoga student:
Hussein is his son. Ali is the cousin and the son-in-law of the prophet
Muhammad. But can they feel the grace of Krsna within this framework, within the
framework of their dietary laws and their..., in opening up the experience of
Krsna to them?
Prabhupada: No, no. If one wants to follow Koran, let him
follow strictly that. No halfway mixing.
Yoga student: Then preaching in Iran
should be essentially to those people who are fallen away from their traditional
path.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is fallen. They are simply amending and
concoction. That is not good. Why they should amend? [break] ...himself in what
relationship with God?
Yoga student: With God? He presented himself as the
last expression of the divine revelation in the West.
Prabhupada: No, what
was his relationship? Just like Christ, he presented himself as the son of God.
So what is the position of Muhammad?
Yoga student: He presented himself as a
man, as considered by Muslims as the perfect man.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya
Rsi: The disciple of God.
Yoga student: And he was the perfect expression of
the divine manifestation in human terms. He was not a divine figure as Christ or
Krsna. He was simply a man, and who was the mouthpiece of the divine
word.
Prabhupada: What is the meaning of Allah akbar?
Yoga student: It
means God, the greatest.
Prabhupada: Greatest.
Yoga student: Yes. Akbar is
being the superlative of kabirsh(?).
Prabhupada: And Muhammad is the
greatest? No. He is subordinate.
Yoga student: No. And in fact Muslims object
to their religion being called Mohammedanism because it implies that they
worship Muhammad, whereas in fact they feel that they go straight to God, to
Allah, which... and that Muhammad simply was a messenger.
Prabhupada: That's
good.
Yoga student: And they regard... They call their religion Islam, which
means submission.
Prabhupada: That's very good.
Yoga student: The Muslim
is he who submits.
Prabhupada: Then God is the greatest, and we are finite,
limited. We are not greatest. And our business is to serve Him. What is
that?
Yoga student: Our business is to serve Him. Precisely as was said last
night, our business is to satisfy Him.
Prabhupada: That's it.
Yoga
student: There is a tradition, and there's a body of forty traditions, which are
called the sacred traditions, one of which says that these are the words of God
as enunciated through Muhammad, one of them saying that "The more you strive
towards Me, the more you love Me, the closer I come to you."
Prabhupada: Oh,
that's it. Then the ultimate goal is how to love God.
Yoga student:
Yes.
Prabhupada: That is very good. That is our philosophy. Sa vai pumsam
paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. Prema pumartho mahan. This is the
highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhagavata
says, "That is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God
and serve Him." That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaisnava dharma in a
crude form like the Christian. So we can amalgamate them all if they are sane
men. I suggested that there are many churches vacant. If they give us these
churches we shall install Deity -- Gaurasundara, Nitai-Gaura and Panca-tattva --
and along with them we shall worship Lord Jesus Christ also. Similarly, we can
do Muhammad. There is no harm. But they are against this Deity worship, eh?
Mohammedans?
Yoga student: Yes, they are. That sort of expression. And yet,
amongst the Sufi poets...
Prabhupada: Deity is also expression, form is also
expression, but they do not understand it.
Yoga student: But the Sufis do,
because in the Sufi...
Prabhupada: They have got form worship, Sufis?
Yoga
student: They don't worship form as such, but they speak of it in the poetry.
They say... In one poem of Hafez(?) there's a meeting between Hafez and his
spiritual master. And he asks the spiritual master (recites verse in Parsi). He
asked, "I asked him, 'What was this current, this chain of idols that we must
worship?' And he replied so that my heart might moan, lament about the dark
night..."
Prabhupada: "Dog night"?
Yoga student: "...the dark night of
ignorance of..."
Prabhupada: Oh, "dark night."
Yoga student:
"...separation from God." So that he used the form of expression of worship, the
expression...
Prabhupada: Separation, how it is possible? Separation is
expressed when there is separation between man to man or man to woman, person.
Otherwise what is the meaning of separation?
Yoga student: Separation from
one's divine...
Prabhupada: Divine? This means must be person. They do not
believe in the Personality of Godhead?
Yoga student: They believe... The
Sufis see the personality of Ali...
Prabhupada: No, I am not talking of the
Sufis. I am talking of the original Islam.
Yoga student: Well, the Sufis
claim to be the original Muslims.
Prabhupada: Do the all the Muslims accept
them? Then?
Parivrajakacarya: There are about 780 different schools of Islam
and different ideas.
Prabhupada: Then? We have to take the original.
Otherwise misled.
Yoga student: Well, I think the original path must be found
in Sufism because that is the...
Prabhupada: Then, if the original path is
followed, why it is named Sufism?
Yoga student: Because there are those who
have fallen away from it, just as in...
Prabhupada: Who has fallen, the Islam
or the Sufist?
Yoga student: I think the formalists have fallen away, like
the jnanis in Hinduism. Just as there's a dispute between the Shaivites and the
Vaisnavaites.
Prabhupada: So who are fallen, the original Islam or the
Sufist?
Yoga student: The Sufis are the original Islam.
Prabhupada: Sufis?
What? I do not follow. Sufis?
Nitai: Sufis are the original...
Prabhupada:
Original cult?
Nitai: Yes, that's what he said.
Prabhupada: Before
Muhammad?
Yoga student: No, springing from Muhammad.
Prabhupada: Then how
you can say it is original?
Yoga student: It is original. All the schools of
laws, they've developed...
Prabhupada: No, if is the original, why they named
differently?
Yoga student: Because there are those who have fallen away from
it, and they are the ones who use this name. The Sufis don't use the name about
themselves. It's used by others who wish to...
Prabhupada: What is the
meaning of Sufism? Literary meaning?
Yoga student: Well, Sufism in a sense is
what bhaktism is in the Hindu context.
Prabhupada: Bhakti means to offer
service to the Lord. Does it mean?
Yoga student: Absolutely.
Prabhupada:
So then if the Lord is to be served, then He must be a person; otherwise where
is the question of service?
Yoga student: Well, the Sufis do see that, the
personal aspect of the Lord...
Prabhupada: Unless one is person, how can I
serve him? I cannot serve the air or the sky. I must serve a person. Love does
not exist in the sky or in the air. It must be a person. Man or woman, it
doesn't matter. Otherwise where there is love? Whom to love?
Yoga student:
The Sufis find love in these figures... For example, the Sufi Ib'n Araby(?),
through of the face of a beautiful woman...
Prabhupada: Through the face of
beautiful woman?
Yoga student: Yes.
Prabhupada: So there the materialists
also find.
Yoga student: That is the material aspect,
absolutely.
Prabhupada: Therefore in Islam religion the form is rejected
because it will come to that. As soon as they think of form, they think of this
material form, beautiful face of woman. That is degradation. Therefore we are
strict not to conceive material form. That is Vedic conception. Apani-padah
javano grahita: "He has no legs and no hands." This is... means denying the
form. And next he says, the Vedas say, javano grahita: "He can accept whatever
you offer to Him." That means God has no material form, but He has form;
otherwise how He can accept? How He can understand my love? So therefore in the
original Islamism the form is not accepted. So that is Vedic description, form
and formless. Formless means no material form, and form means spiritual form,
simultaneous. Just like I am, you are. I am within the body, but I am not this
body. This form not I am. But wherefrom the form of the body came into
existence? Because I have got form. The sweater has got hand because I have got
hand. The sweater is the covering. If I haven't got form, then how the sweater
has got hand, the pant has got leg? So the pant practically is not the leg. The
real leg is within the pant. Similarly, this is not my form; this is like pant,
leg of the pant or hand of the coat. Real form is within, asmin dehe. That is
not material form. If the real form I could see, you could see, then there was
no controversy, the spirit. But they cannot see. Therefore they say "formless."
If it is formless, then how the outer form comes out? How it can be? The tailor
makes the coat because the man has got form. As the coat has got hands, so it is
concluded that the man for whom the coat is made, he has got form. How you can
say without form? The difficulty is that we can see the form of the coat, but we
cannot see the form of the man. That is my defect with the eyes, not that the
God is formless. God is not formless.
Yoga student: God is seen in the form
of the saints.
Prabhupada: That is another. That is secondary. But God has
got form. That is the conclusion. But we cannot see with our present eyes. That
is described, atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih [Brs. 1.2.234].
By your these blunt senses... The same thing. Just like I see you. What I see
you? Your body. You see me -- my body. And when the body is there and the soul
is not there, then it is lump of matter. You kick it out and nobody will
protest. If a dead body you smash with your legs and boots, nobody will say that
"Why you are doing this?" But so long the soul is there, if somebody is smashed
like that, immediately there will be protest from all side, "Why you are doing
this?" So the people have no knowledge about the real form. Therefore they say
formless.
Atreya Rsi: When the body changes, Srila Prabhupada, how is it...?
When our coat, size of the coat changes because our body grows bigger, the size
of the coat is bigger. Shirt is bigger.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is spiritual
form. It can take... It can become bigger, smaller, like that.
Atreya Rsi:
But the form is the same. [break]
Prabhupada: This has been... Body has been
described as the dress. So the form of the dress cannot be there unless there is
form of the person who puts on the dress. How can you deny it? Because the dress
has got form, the person who puts on the dress must have form. How can you deny
this argument? You cannot say "formless." It may be, you cannot see it. That is
different thing. But it must be form and individual. That is stated in the
Bhagavad-gita, that Krsna says, "Arjuna, you and Me and all these persons who
are here, they were existing like that in the past, they are now existing, and
they will exist in the same way." Therefore all are individual.
Yoga student:
With Krsna can one say that Krsna is the form that presents itself, of Godhead,
which presents itself to man, and Bhagavan is the essential
aspect?
Prabhupada: Bhagavan? Yes, in the original.
Atreya Rsi: Same as
Krsna.
Prabhupada: Just like the sun. Sunshine is very big, and the sun globe
is not so big. But which is important, the sunshine or the sun globe?
Yoga
student: But it's the glow which reaches man.
Prabhupada: Eh, these are
example.
Yoga student: He can't touch the globe because he would be
consumed.
Prabhupada: That is another thing, the qualitative change. But it
is... There are five elements, so it is made of fire, that's all. As your body
is made of earth, that sun globe or the sun-god, the body is made of fire,
that's all. There are other planets also; the body is made of air because you do
not find more than these five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky-gross; and
subtle -- mind, intelligence and ego. So subtle, the same, but gross --
somewhere the fire is prominent; somewhere water is prominent, air is prominent;
somewhere earth is prominent. So here in this world, in this planet, the earth
is prominent.
Yoga student: Distinct from being permanent, the
eternal?
Atreya Rsi: Is prominent.
Yoga student: Oh, prominent.
Atreya
Rsi: Earth is prominent.
Yoga student: It's the prominent form in this
material world.
Atreya Rsi: In this earth, in this planet, earth is the
prominent of the five elements.
Prabhupada: Whole world, whole universe, they
are made of these five elements.
Atreya Rsi: All the creation, the material
creation, is made of five elements.
Yoga student: What is the fifth besides
earth, air, fire and water?
Prabhupada: Ether.
Yoga student: Ether. How
does ether distinguish...
Prabhupada: The sky. Ether is... Presence of ether
by sound.
Yoga student: How is ether distinct from air?
Prabhupada: Ether
you cannot feel touch. Air you can feel touch.
Parivrajakacarya: Based on the
sense perception. On this planet, the bodies are made of earth. But there are
other places, other planets, where the physical body is composed of a different
combination. So one is predominantly air, another can be fire, another water,
ether.
Yoga student: But is ether a gross element as well?
Atreya Rsi:
Ether is space.
Prabhupada: Yes, space.
Yoga student: So in that sense
it's a gross element.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Parivrajakacarya: It's perceivable
by the senses as sound.
Yoga student: As sound.
Prabhupada: Ether is
perceived by sound, air is perceived by touch. Then... Ether, air... Then fire
you can see by vision. And then next, water, you can taste, and the earth you
can smell. These five senses are there to appreciate these five kinds of
elements. All right. Hare Krsna. [break]
Devotee: These are some of my
friends here, Prabhupada. This is Kani Faizal(?). He is a director, theater
director, and artist. He wants to do a play now from the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the
story of Prahlada Maharaja.
Prabhupada: Oh. Very good.
Devotee: This is
Carlos. This is Ali. I don't know your name.
Maslud: Maslud.
Prabhupada:
So all cultural people. All cultural people.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada:
Nice. Where is Atreya?
Devotee: He's coming.
Prabhupada: Yes. India...
Formerly your country was part of India, and you belong to the same culture. So
far I understand, Iran means Aryan? So Aryan culture was practically all over
the world. Aryan culture is based on God consciousness. So amongst the Aryans
there is some conception of religion, either Christian religion or Mohammedan
religion, Buddhist religion, Vedic religion, based on conception of God. So
according to time, country, the ways of understanding may be little different,
but the aim is God consciousness. That is Aryan civilization. So God is one; God
cannot be two. So the features of God or angle of vision of God may be
different. So they have been summarized in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. (Aside:) You
can come forward. One feature of God is impersonal. Just like the sunshine.
Sunshine is spreading all over the universe. It is impersonal. But the quality
of the sunshine is heat and light. The heat and light means energy. So as in the
material calculation, the heat and light is the cause of all creation. Just like
at the present moment there is not sufficient heat; therefore the trees have no
leaves. And as soon as there will be little more heat they will be all green. So
you can take it that the creation of the foliage is due to the heat. Similarly
light. So heat and light is the cause of all this material creation. And heat
and light is coming from the sunshine, er, sun. Therefore heat becomes the
origin of creation even in this material world. Similarly, there is another
light. That is the original light. This is reflection. That is called
brahmajyoti, spiritual light. So in this way one conception of God is like that.
Another conception of God is: God is situated everywhere. Andantara-stham
paramanu-cayantara-stham. Because God is situated within the universe, within
the atom, therefore they are existing. Just like the atma, or spirit soul, is
situated in you, in me, in everyone. This is called Paramatma feature. And at
the ultimate end there is the person, God as person, the Supreme Person, the
Supreme Being, a person like you and me -- we are person -- but He is almighty,
all-powerful. This is the conception of Absolute Truth: God, Paramatma, and
Brahmajyoti. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. This is the
Sanskrit word. He is realized as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. Bhagavan is
person; Paramatma is all-pervading, means localized, situated; and Brahman means
all-pervading. All together-God. This is the idea. What is your idea of
God?
Young man: I find it very difficult to know the difference between truth
and illusion.
Prabhupada: God is truth; what is forgetfulness of God, that is
illusion. God is truth. Just like the sun is present all the time, twenty-four
hours. But we say now there is no sun, at night. But that's not the fact. The
fact is the sun is there; I cannot see. That is illusion. Not that God is not
there. God is there. As exactly, same example, the sun is there at night, but I
cannot see under certain condition. Therefore it is illusion. Our senses are
imperfect; therefore sometimes we cannot understand or see God. If our senses
are purified, then we can see God every moment. So, what is your idea of
God?
Young man: I, I... Something that I see sometimes in everything, the
sameness in everything.
Prabhupada: No clear concept.
Young man: I have no
clear...
Prabhupada: Yes. The clear conception of God is that originally He
is person. Just like the same example, the sun. We can see every day the sun.
(aside:) Can you give me that 7-Up? The sun is there always, but at night we
cannot see. At night we cannot see. That does not mean the sun is not
there.
Young man: But sharpening the senses, how does one sharpen one's
senses?
Prabhupada: Senses are imperfect. Just like we are very proud of our
eyes to see, but you cannot see what is beyond the wall. Therefore it is
conditioned. You cannot see without light. That, how you can be sure that your
eyes are perfectly seeing? That is not possible, because the eyes can see under
certain condition. So if it is conditioned, then it is not perfect. But the
conditioned sight can be purified. Just like one is suffering from cataract. By
surgical operation the cataract can be removed and he can see. Similarly, our
senses are imperfect. If we purify the senses, then it will be possible to see
God twenty-four hours. That purification process is this Krsna consciousness
movement.
Young man: Are human beings the only creations that can have Krsna
consciousness?
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna consciousness means God consciousness.
The cats and dogs cannot be trained up. But a human being can be trained up.
Especially the Aryans, they can be trained up. They are advanced.
Young man:
More advanced than other races?
Prabhupada: By birth they are advanced. They
have got intelligence. But for Krsna consciousness everyone can be purified,
even the non-Aryans. It is without any check. Ahaituky apratihata. Apratihata
means without any material check. It is not a disqualification that one is not
an Aryan, therefore he cannot understand God. No. He can also be trained up.
Because it is spiritual, and we are all spiritual identities, so it is not
difficult. Even one who is not spiritual at the present moment, but by training
he can also become spiritual.
Young man: In other words, one has to make an
intellectual effort or at least in order to...
Prabhupada: It is not very
highly intellectual. One has to understand first of all that he is not this
body. That anyone can understand, that "I am changing my body, but I am there.
Therefore I am not this body." Just like a child's coat, when he is young man,
that coat does not fit him. So that young man means he has got another body. But
the young man knows, he remembers, that he was a child. He was on the lap of his
parents or his relatives. So that body is no longer existing. I have got a
different body, but I who had the childhood body, I am existing. Is it very
difficult to understand, any one of you? The body has changed. That's a fact.
But I am the same. [break] What is that?
Devotee: The demands of the body
makes it...
Atreya Rsi: The attachment to the body...
Prabhupada: No,
attachment to the body is not bad. Just like you have got a nice car. So you
have got attachment for it. But you must know that you are not the car. That
everyone can... A child can understand. But because I have got attachment for
something, it does not mean I am that thing. I have got attachment for so many
things. That is natural. Anything I possess, I have got attachment. But that
does not mean I am that thing. But here the mistake is that because we have got
attachment for the body, I am identifying myself as the body. That is ignorance,
illusion.
Young man: Yes, but one is egocentric... My egoism is very close to
my body.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone says "I am." But the mistake is: he is
thinking "I am this body." That... When one is in knowledge, he understands that
"I am not this body; I am spirit soul." The "I am" is there. But "I am" is now
falsely identified with this body. That has to be cured. Then spiritual
knowledge begins.
Young man: When one is aware of that fact, that he is not
the body?
Prabhupada: As soon as he come into knowledge.
Young man: But
can one be egoistic and be spiritual at the same time, I mean, be proud of
himself, not as a body, but proud of his state of the spirit?
Prabhupada:
Yes. Now we are bodily busy. Because I am identifying with this body, therefore
my misunderstanding is there. But if I understand I am not this body, then my
activities will be different. So first of all, you have to understand that I am
not this body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. [break] ...with
this body, we remain an animal, because animal cannot understand that he is not
body. Try to understand that you are not this body. And what is the difficulty?
When a...?
Young man: The difficulty is that I fear that if this body leaves
me I'll no longer be. That's the difficulty, because it's difficult for me to
imagine that when my brain doesn't work, I can't live, if I can live when my
brain stops functioning. That's the difficulty.
Prabhupada: Difficulty is not
there, but we have to understand from teacher. Just like the many subject of
knowledge we do not understand in the beginning, but by hearing from the
teacher, gradually we understand. So that teacher must be perfect, in full
knowledge, and then we can understand from him. So we accept Krsna. Because He
is God, He is perfect. So we receive knowledge from Him, and that is
Bhagavad-gita. So knowledge from Krsna or His pure servant, both of them are
equal. They can give us that knowledge.
Young man: I'd like to know the
relation...
Prabhupada: Paramahamsa? Bring those ice. Put. That's all.
Hm?
Young man: I'd like to know the relation between Visnu and Krsna, how
Visnu became Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna is the Supreme Being, and He has got
many expansion. So Visnu is also expansion.
ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena
tisthan
nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu
krsnah svayam samabhavat
paramah puman yo
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs.
5.39]
This is in the Vedas, Brahma-samhita. Krsnah svayam sama... Krsna means
the original. And He expands in so many forms, ramadi-murtisu: Rama, Nrsimha,
Varaha, Visnu, Sankarsana, Balarama -- so many thousands. But the original
person is Krsna. (Pause) Therefore I asked, "What is the idea of God?" I suppose
you are all Mohammedan.
Young man: We were brought up as
Mohammedans.
Prabhupada: So what is the conception of God in Islam?
Young
man: Even as a Mohammedan, I didn't have very good teaching. My teachers didn't
know the Koran very well, and therefore they gave me no concept of God when I
was a child. I don't know what the Mohammedan concept of God is.
Prabhupada:
Any one of you cannot explain? You have got?
Young man: I think it's the
all-powerful one who's omnipotent, the same as in all religions. There is one
God.
Prabhupada: So His form... What is the form?
Young man: What is His
form? He created the world...
Prabhupada: That is His action. What is His
form?
Young man: A heavenly being.
Young man (2): There is no form given
for God. It's spiritual.
Prabhupada: The description must be there.
Girl:
He's a human being. He's got a human form.
Prabhupada: That I am asking, what
is the form?
Young man: Well, the only thing... It just says that He created
man after His own image. So...
Prabhupada: That is the Christian
idea.
Young man: Yeah. And the...
Prabhupada: The Mohammedan, Islam is
also same idea?
Young man: Well, since the Old Testament, part of the Old
Testament, is very similar to the Koran, I presume the creation of Adam, that
bit, is also taken from the Old Testament. But He is projected as a great judge
really, a supreme judge.
Prabhupada: Yes, He must be the supreme judge
because He is Supreme Being. So He is not only... Supreme judge means supreme
knowledge.
Young man: Yes. Somehow in modern religion they very much
emphasize on the fact that He judges. And I could never accept that idea for
example, that the Supreme Being judges, because judging is a low activity. It's
a... Spiritual people don't judge. So how come...
Prabhupada:
Spiritual...?
Young man: Leader.
Prabhupada: They do not judge?
Young
man: That's what I thought.
Prabhupada: No, judgment is there everywhere.
Unless there is judgment, how you can discriminate, "This is spiritual; this is
material"? Judgment must be there for intelligent person. Otherwise how you can
distinguish? We are distinguishing every moment -- "This is good. This is bad"
-- in the relative world. So there is judgment. So God -- the supreme judge. So
as soon as there is question of judgment, then what is our position? There must
be good and bad, so that if we have lived a very nice, good life, then by the
judgment of God we get better position. And if we have not done so, then you get
degraded position. Therefore, for human being it is very sanguine to understand
how we are going to be judged by the Supreme. So if we are following the rules
and regulation given by God, then the judgment will be better. And if we are not
following the laws, the judgment will not be in favor. This is natural to
conclude. Then we have to judge what is sin, what is piety, how to be pious, how
one becomes sinful. So many things will come.
Atreya Rsi: Do the laws of
nature also make distinction, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Laws of nature means
laws of God. It is executed through the machine of nature.
Atreya Rsi: And
that machine also makes distinction, doesn't it?
Prabhupada: No.
Atreya
Rsi: No judgment?
Prabhupada: The machine... Just like I push certain button,
it acts in a certain way. I push another button it acts in another way. Just
like computer machine. It is a very complicated machine, but it does not act
automatically. One man who knows, he puts the button and it acts.
Young man:
If the laws of nature are the laws of God, then how is it that sometimes they're
even crueler than the actions..., they are more violent than the actions which
ordinary men do, than that of a tyrant or a murderer?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Rules, God rules, are perfect, and it is being perfectly done. Sometimes we
misunderstand.
Young man: Then how do we take the meaning of earthquakes and
natural disasters which could destroy the lives of pure people as well as impure
people?
Prabhupada: No, every life is pure. The body is pure and impure. So
anyway, after destruction, the life is not destroyed. Na hanyate hanyamane
sarire [Bg. 2.20]. The destruction of body does not mean that the soul is
destroyed. No. He gets another body. The body is... one body is destroyed, and
he transmigrates to another body. And so far your question about the earthquake,
so suppose if there is plane crash, there are many good men, bad men, so
everyone is crashed. But the good man gets a good body again; the bad man gets a
bad body again.
Young man: The good man gets a better body or a good
body?
Prabhupada: Good, better or worst, bad, according to his karma. Just
like your shirt. You throw away on account of being old. Now you have to
purchase another. But there are many varieties of shirt-coat. As you pay for it,
you get. If you can pay nice price, you get silk shirt-coat. But if you cannot,
you get ordinary cotton or jute. So your body will be according to your karma,
or work. Why the other boys went away? Two, three boys?
Parivrajakacarya:
They said they had to go.
Prabhupada: Oh. So these things has to be learned
first, that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul. I am changing my body, and
this is botheration." So if there is any way to stop this changing, that is
required. That... That is possible to be done in this human form of
life.
Young man: Is there any chance to understand how the Absolute
think?
Prabhupada: Yes, this is the chance, human body. If you want to know,
you can know. Here is the chance.
Young man: Is there a way of knowing that
the body you inhabited before was of a inferior quality than the one you're
inhabiting now, or...
Prabhupada: Inferior quality, just like cats and dog.
That is inferior quality.
Young man: Yeah, is there a way of knowing whether
you're on the way up or you're falling?
Prabhupada: Yes. You... Just like you
infect some disease. Then it is sure that you are going to grow that disease.
And if you don't infect, then you don't grow that disease. Do you know this,
infection? Disease infection?
Young man: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, if you don't
infect a certain disease, then you don't grow it. And if you infect... Therefore
you must know or you must know the rules and regulation, how you can save
yourself from infection. If you are ignorant and if you infect some disease,
epidemic, then you have to suffer. If you remain disinfected, then you don't get
inferior body, you get superior body, in other planets. Or you can go back to
home, back to Godhead. Therefore I said that this Krsna consciousness movement
is for purification so that you may not get infected by the material modes.
Therefore we advise our student four regulative principles: no illicit sex, no
meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. Plus chanting the holy name of God.
Then you remain immune from the infection. And that you will feel practically
also, if you adopt the means. Now it is up to us to decide whether I shall
continue the life of infection or I shall remain immune from all infection. That
is your decision. Better we should remain immune from all kinds of infection,
and that is Krsna consciousness. Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26], find out
this verse.
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena yah sevate
sa gunan
samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg.
14.26]
Paramahamsa:
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa
gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
"One who
engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance,
at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of
Brahman."
Prabhupada: This is the way. The purport?
Paramahamsa: "This
verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question: What is the means of attaining to
the transcendental position?"
Prabhupada: So everything is explained. One has
to learn it very carefully.
Young man: If one does not lose one's identity
when one is returned to the Godhead, what is the nature of the
relationship?
Prabhupada: Servant. God is supreme, we are all subordinate.
God is maintaining us just like father maintains. So it is the duty of the son
to be obedient to the father, to act according to his order. Then everything is
perfect. At the present moment on account of this bodily concept of life every
one of us thinking nationality and duty of nation, duty of the community, duty
of the family, so many duties. But actually we, being spiritual, our only duty
is to serve God. We are serving; everyone is serving. That is our constitutional
position, to serve. But at the present moment we are serving maya, illusion, and
we have to be trained up to serve the Supreme Being. Then our life is perfect.
[break] ...at the present moment, although there are many religious system, they
have no clear conception of God, although religion means to approach God. There
is no religion throughout the whole world which is not connected with the word
God. So religion means to understand God. But if we have no clear conception of
God, then the religion is defective. Do you admit it or not? Religion means to
understand God or God's laws. That is religion. But if we do not understand what
is God, then that religion is also defective. So far our position is, we are
approaching directly God through His agent, and our conception of God is there
in the temple worship or our working for God. But we have got no vague idea of
God. We have got complete idea: Krsna. You want to speak anything?
Young man:
What is the Krsna conscious outlook on other world religions?
Prabhupada:
They have got simply an idea that there is God, but what is that God, they have
no clear conception. Just like I asked, "What is the conception of God in
Islam?" You could not give us. You simply described some of His
activities.
Young man: That's true.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Young man: All the
religions that have been taught to me have not given me a clear view of God, a
clear concept. They didn't seem to know it themself.
Prabhupada: No, concept
is there as you told me: "The God has made human being after His own image."
Then we can get the idea that God is a person like a human being, He has got two
hands, two legs, one head, because after His image we have been... Now, if we
study ourself and increase that quality... Just like I am. I can eat. I can eat
a certain amount of foodstuff, but God can also eat, but He can eat the whole
universe. So eating is there. But the difference of eating is there also. I can
create one airplane, but God has created very, very big airplanes like these
planets, and they are floating in the sky without any power crisis. That is
God's creation. Here we are floating the airplane or running the car with the
power, petrol, given by God. You cannot manufacture petrol. Just like in your
country there is enough stock of petrol. But you have not created it. So who has
created? Your creative power is to drill and get the stock. So much creative
power you have got. But you cannot create petrol. Then the Americans would not
have come here to beg petrol. That is the difference. You can create something
by the ingredients given by God. You can create this table. Because wood is
given by God, the instrument is given by God, and the intelligence given by God,
the hand is given by God, so in this way you create the table. Then whose
property it will be, your property or God's property? Whose property? If I give
you wood, instrument, your salary, and you create something, the ultimately the
thing created, to whom it should belong? To you or to me?
Young man: To you
if you're...
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore everything belongs to God. The petrol
belongs to God; the land belongs to God; we also belong to God. But because we
have forgotten God, there is crisis. Therefore, if you want peace, then you must
accept here this principle that everything belongs to God. That is Vedic
information. Isavasyam idam sarvam. Isopanisad. You have read our
Isopanisad?
Young man: I have read some of it.
Prabhupada: Here is the
Isopanisad. Show him. Isavasyam idam sarvam. Read that
verse.
Srutakirti:
isavasyam idam sarvam
yat kinca jagatyam
jagat
tena tyaktena bhunjitha
ma grdhah kasya svid dhanam
[Iso
mantra 1]
"Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is
controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things
necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one must not accept
other things, knowing well to whom they belong."
Prabhupada:
Explanation.
Srutakirti:. "Purport." [break]
Prabhupada: This is the
summary of God consciousness. (Says something in Hindi)
Young man: I am from
Ananda-marga. My name is Acarya Sveta Kirtu Brahmacari.
Prabhupada:
Sveta-kirtu. Sveta.
Young man: And the guru's name is Sri Sri
Radha-Govindaji.
Prabhupada: Hmm. You have got a branch here?
Young man: I
have been here for about three months. I am trying to lead the practices and the
sadhana of the people here and trying to set up a unit here.
Prabhupada: So
you follow Vedic principle?
Young man: We follow Tantric
principle.
Prabhupada: Tantric. Tantra, there are two kinds of tantras,
sattvata, and there are sattvic, rajasic, anything. So your activity is on the
material platform or spiritual?
Young man: It's actually... Our motive is,
our objective is atma moksa (Sanskrit).
Prabhupada: Atma...?
Young man:
(Sanskrit). Self-realization and selfless service to humanity. So that's our
principles. That's the objective of Ananda-marga philosophy. So that's a
subjective approach to objective adjustment, both, side by side.
Prabhupada:
What is that ananda?
Young man: Ananda means bliss, infinite
happiness.
Prabhupada: Infinite. But what is the platform of that ananda,
material or spiritual?
Young man: Of course, ananda means very much spiritual
aspect.
Prabhupada: But if somebody wants to derive ananda by sense pleasure,
is that spiritual?
Young man: Our practices has...
Prabhupada: Tantra
means they want to derive pleasure through the senses. So is that
spiritual?
Young man: Our gurudeva says that not only do we do vidya-tantra
but both the Tantric practices avidya and vidya has to be practiced. So one has
to go beyond...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is spiritual.
Young man: Even after
vidya and avidya, you have to be beyond that stage. So our gurudeva teaches both
the practices. When the time is proper, he says he will also teach
avidya-tantra, avidya sara.(?)
Prabhupada: Abhidheya.
Young man:
Avidya
Indian man: Vaiddha and avaiddha. It may be avaiddha.
Prabhupada:
"Late"?
Indian man: The one which is recognized and the one which is not
recognized by the society. That is the (Sanskrit).
Prabhupada: So society
recognizes the sense gratification, whether it is bhidheya or
abhidheya?
Indian man: What is bhideya or abhidheya?
Prabhupada:
Bhagavad-gita says, sukham atyantikam yat tad atindriya grahyam [Bg. 6.21].
Bliss which is supreme, that is to be appreciated by atindriya. Atindriya means
beyond the senses. So those who are indulging in senses, the Tantra indulges in
senses. Is that spiritual? That is not spiritual. That is material.
Indian
man: You have to use the material, all the potential...
Prabhupada: No.
Atindriya. You haven't got to use this material [break] ...enjoy the spiritual
senses, one has to not only stop, but undergo tapasya, tapo divyam. Just like a
man is diseased, he wants to eat, but due to the disease he cannot eat. So first
of all, you have to cure the disease, then your eating will be a pleasure. And
if you want to eat in the diseased condition, then the taste will not be proper;
you cannot eat. A man suffering from jaundice, if you give him sugar candy, he
will taste it bitter. The same man, when he is cured, he will taste the sugar
candy as very sweet. Tapo divyam yena putraka suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. You
have to purify your existence by tapasya. And tapasya means stops material sense
gratification. (Hindi) (Someone enters room) Ah, thank you. So you have
translated in Parsi?
Dr. Movebhed: Yes.
Prabhupada: So Bhagavad-gita...
Krsna is speaking Bhagavad-gita. What is the position of Krsna? That you have
mentioned?
Dr. Movebhed: I have to listen to you.
Prabhupada: Why you
shall listen to me? The Bhagavad-gita is there.
Dr. Movebhed: But you are an
insider.
Prabhupada: Yes, actually without listening, so many big, big men,
they have committed mistake about Bhagavad-gita. Even Gandhi, he says that "I do
not believe that there was a person, Krsna, ever living." Just see. What to
speak of others. (Hindi) Without listening from the right source, even a
personality like Gandhi will commit mistake, what to speak of others. Similarly,
Dr. Radhakrishnan has committed so many mistake. So big, big scholars, they're
trying to study Bhagavad-gita, but they cannot understand. Therefore Krsna says,
tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You first prepare
yourself to surrender, pranipata, pranipata-prakrsta-rupena nipata. Without any
reservation, surrender, pranipatena, by the surrendering process, and
pariprasnena, by enquiring from the authority. Because it is not very easy to
understand Krsna. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Out of
many, many million persons one try to understand, one trying to become perfect,
siddhaye. Siddhi means perfection. So yatatam api siddhanam: [Bg. 7.3] "Those
who have attained siddhi, perfection, out of many such siddhas," kascid mam
vetti tattvatah, "maybe one man can understand Me." The first of all to become
siddha. Then, after becoming siddha, one may understand Krsna or he may not.
Actually it is very difficult to understand Krsna. But you can understand Krsna
if you adopt this process: pranipatena, pariprasnena, sevaya-three things. You
have to go to a person where you can surrender, not to a bogus person or one who
is not competent to accept your surrender. And then you make question that
"Krsna says like this. What is the meaning of this?" Manusyanam sahasresu kascid
yatati... [Bg. 7.3]. And sevaya. Three things required: first of all surrender,
and then question, and seva. You cannot question by challenging. You have to
render service and surrender. Between the two, pranipata and sevaya, there is
pariprasna. Then you will understand. Upadeksyanti tad jnanam jnaninah
tattva-darsinah. Tattva-darsi, one who has seen the truth, he can enlighten you.
This is the process. Otherwise, even Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Vivekananda, all
they have committed mistake. Aurobindo. Aurobindo has understood little to some
extent, but not fully. But if we are fortunate enough, then we can understand
Krsna very easily. What is that? Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti
dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "My dear Dhananjaya, Arjuna, there is no more superior
truth than Me." So if we accept that, either you say blindly or conscientiously,
then that is perfection. Krsna says, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam
prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births of philosophical speculation,
when one actually becomes wise, jnani, jnanavan, full of knowledge, then the
result is mam prapadyate: he surrenders unto Me." Why surrender? Now, vasudevah
sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19] -- he understands that Krsna is everything. Sa mahatma
su-durlabhah: "Such mahatma is very rare." That I was... we were discussing that
there are so many religious system in the world, but hardly they have got any
clear conception of God. I have asked so many gentlemen belonging to different
types of religion that "What is the clear conception of God?" So may I ask you
also what is the clear conception of God?
Dr. Movebhed: I prefer to listen to
you.
Prabhupada: But we are speaking the same thing, Bhagavad-gita. We are
not manufacturing anything. Clear conception of God you can take from Arjuna.
Arjuna associated with Krsna personally. What he says about Krsna and what he
understands about God, that you read from the Tenth Chapter. Param brahma param
dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam sasvatam divyam [Bg. 10.12].
Nitai:
"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and
purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal
God, transcendental and original. You are the unborn and the all-pervading
beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim
this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupada: Then?
Purport? [break] Next verse?
Nitai: "O Krsna, I totally accept as truth all
that You have told me. Neither the gods nor the demons, O Lord, know Thy
personality."
Prabhupada: Now here is the Arjuna's understanding, that "I
accept You in total." Now some rascals are proclaiming that all the
Bhagavad-gitas, they are, most of them are interpretation. But Arjuna says that
"I accept everything what You have said." So whom you will accept, Arjuna or
some rascal who is speaking that "There are so many interpolation. They can be
rejected"? Whom you will accept as authority? Arjuna says that "I accept
whatever You have said in toto." If you accept Arjuna because he has heard from
Krsna, then you accept Krsna or you understand Krsna.
Dr. Movebhed: I said I
think the question you put, the clear concept of Krsna, or God... The God for me
is not a conceptual thing. It cannot be subject to concept, and to understand
God, you have to identify yourself with the truth, and otherwise it's not the
way to...
Prabhupada: No, if you accept Krsna as the teacher, authority, just
like Arjuna accepted. Arjuna said, sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam: [Bg. 2.7]
"Now I accept You as my teacher." Sisya. Sisya means disciple. Sisyas te aham:
"I am Your now disciple. Don't accept me as Your friend." Friend to friend talk,
it is not very serious. So when one is accepted as the master, then you have to
accept his statement. There is no question of argument. That is the relationship
between guru and disciple. Therefore the process is: before accepting a person
as guru, one must study his position. And guru also, before accepting a
disciple, must study his position. In this way the relationship between guru and
disciple is established. Now, Arjuna is a friend of Krsna, so he has studied
Krsna, and therefore he submits, Arjuna, "Krsna, although we are friends, now I
accept You as my spiritual master." Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam: [Bg.
2.7] "I am now surrendered." "Surrendered" means "As I accept you as my teacher,
I'll not argue." So first of all this is required, that before accepting
somebody as teacher one must be convinced that "The person whom I am going to
accept, my teacher, is perfect." Then the knowledge will be nice. If we approach
a perfect person and submissively hear from him, then the knowledge is perfect.
So Krsna is accepted as the supreme authority, as Arjuna quoted. What is
that?
Nitai: Ahus tvam rsayah sarve.
Prabhupada: Ahus tvam rsayah sarve:
"All the rsis, great saintly persons, they have accepted You." And some of them
are named: Asita, Devala, Vyasa. They are very great authority, rsis: Vyasadeva,
who has compiled the whole Vedic literature; Narada, the spiritual master of
Vyasadeva; similarly, Asita, Devala, very, very big, big stalwart, they have
accepted. So apart from all these rsis, recently, within, say, thousand years,
great acaryas just like Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, Nimbarka,
Visnu Svami, Lord Caitanya, they have all accepted Krsna as the Supreme. And
India's Vedic culture is practically dependent on all these acaryas. So we are
follower of these acarya, so we accept, following the footsteps of the acarya.
Acaryavan puruso veda. One who has acarya, guidance... Just like if anyone is
going to be doctor of philosophy, he is guided by three acaryas. That is the
system in India. I think the same here, is it not? Anyone who is going to
present some thesis, he is guided by three experienced professors, is it
not?
Dr. Movebhed: Yes, more or less.
Prabhupada: That is acarya. So
acaryavan puruso veda. Without following the acarya, if we simply theorize, that
is not good. Just like the same example: if you want to put some thesis, the
university regulation is that he must be guided by three experienced professor.
You cannot simply put forward your thesis without being guided by the
experienced professors. That thesis will not be accepted. Similarly, here Arjuna
directly hears from Krsna. So he says that "You are Parabrahma. Now I
understand." Now people may say that "You are accepting Him Parabrahma. Where is
your authority? You are friend. You can say Parabrahma or anything -- out of
love. That is not final." Therefore he quotes that... What is that? Ahus tvam
rsayah sarve: "All the big, big rsis, they have accepted You." Svayam caiva
bravisi me: "And You, the Supreme Person, You are also speaking to me. And so
far I am concerned, I have realized now that You are the Supreme Lord,
Parabrahma." So if we follow Arjuna, then there is no difficulty. Accept Krsna
as Parabrahma. So Arjuna has heard it from Krsna directly. This is the process.
Now Krsna says that "I accept your statement in toto." What is that
language?
Nitai: Sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg. 10.14].
Prabhupada: Sarvam
etam rtam manye yad vadasi kesava: "My dear Kesava..." Kesava, the another name
of Krsna... "Whatever You have said I accept them cent percent." Sarvam etam
rtam. Rtam means fact, truth. This is understanding. So if we accept in that
way, then our knowledge is perfect. And if we accept in a different way... Just
like Gandhi says that "I do not believe that Krsna ever lived." Just see. He
does not believe in the acaryas. All the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya,
they have written big, big comment on Bhagavad-gita, even Sankaracarya. He does
not believe anyone. He believes himself. And that kind of belief is not help.
And our process is: because Krsna has been accepted by all the acaryas, all the
great sages, Arjuna has accepted -- we accept, that's all. We have no
difficulty. If I am child, I ask my father, "What is this, my father?" The
father says, "My dear child, it is called coconut." Then, if I distribute this
knowledge, "This is coconut," then my knowledge is perfect. I may not be
perfect, but because I have heard it from my father, who is perfect about the
knowledge of this fruit, so I have taken that word from my father, and I am
preaching, "This is coconut," and this is perfect. So our, this Krsna
consciousness movement is like that. We are simply repeating the perfect
statement of our predecessor. That's all. So there is no difficulty. We haven't
got to write thesis on Krsna. The perfect knowledge is already there. And
supported by the acaryas. And we are simply submitting that "This is Krsna. This
is God." That's all. All over the world we are placing this statement that "Here
is Bhagavad-gita, and Krsna spoke. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He
is like this. He is the original source of everything." Krsna says, aham
sarvasya prabhavah: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything." And Krsna also
says, "After many, many births one come to this understanding that vasudevah
sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] 'Vasudeva is everything.' " Krsna says, "I am
everything." And when one understands that Krsna is everything, sa mahatma
su-durlabhah, that mahatma is very rare. So my point is that simply replacing...
not replacing, submitting the same statement as the great saintly person,
acaryas have accepted, we are getting the result very nice, instead of
theorizing in my own way, although it is not very difficult. Krsna says that
"You always think of Me," man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. So we are teaching people
the same way, that "You always think of Krsna. Chant Hare Krsna." That is
thinking of Krsna. So that is being effective. We are getting good result all
over the world. Anyone who is thinking of Krsna, he is becoming Krsna conscious,
fully convinced, dedicating his life for Krsna. Nobody can change him. Now any
of my students, you ask them to change his position from Krsna consciousness to
something else. I don't think they will agree. They are not fools; they are all
qualified, educated. They are firmly convinced about Krsna consciousness. And
all of them will explain how they are convinced. If you ask them, any one of
them will explain. They have not blindly accepted. So this is the process, that
if you accept the pure path as accepted by the authorities, then it will be
effective. Svayam eva... That is the Vedic principle. Svayam eva sphuraty adhah.
Spiritual realization is revealed. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita.
Buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te. So if we adopt the right
principle, then other things will automatically come and help us. And the
process is very simple if we accept it. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. Find this
verse.
Nitai:
man-mana bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yaji mam namaskuru
mam
evaisyasi yuktvaivam
atmanam mat-parayanah
"Engage your mind always in
thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in
Me, surely you will come to Me."
Prabhupada: A simple formula. Anyone can
think of Krsna always. Anyone can offer obeisances. Bhava mad-bhaktah. Anyone
can serve Krsna. Krsna is open to everyone. So four principle: man-mana bhava
mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Even a child can do that. And by doing these
four things he becomes perfect. And the other verse,
mam hi partha
vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi
yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]
It is open for everyone. Mam hi partha
vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah. Even born in low-grade family, it doesn't
matter. If he accepts these four principles, te 'pi yanti param gatih, they also
become transferred to the supreme goal. And Krsna is not meant for any
particular type of men or nation or country. No. Krsna says... Find out this
verse, sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah...
Nitai:
sarva-yonisu
kaunteya
murtayah sambhavanti yah
tasam brahma mahad yonir
aham
bija-pradah pita
[Bg. 14.4]
"It should be understood that all
species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material
nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."
Prabhupada: So He is the
father of all species of life, origin. Actually every one of us, we are part and
parcel of Krsna. So Krsna is not for a particular person. For everyone.
Yes?
Ananda-marga woman: When you asked what is the true form of God, I've
seen the true form of God in myself. It's the purest life, it's the life I
cannot reach through my mind. And nobody has experienced in material world. I
have listened to it. It is a beautiful sound, the celestial music. And you
cannot reach it through material world. I've tasted it as the purest water, and
it's always inside me. And you can get it in the spring water even. And it is
something I cannot reach through my mind because it is beyond my mind. I can
reach by surrendering myself, by being a devotee. And I have experienced the
true form of God.
Prabhupada: No, what is that form?
Ananda-marga woman:
It's the purest light. It's the magnificent light. I have listened to it. It's
the music. And I have tasted it.
Prabhupada: No, if you have realized God,
you must know what is His form. You must explain.
Ananda-marga woman: The
energy of light does take the form of everything which exists. It is the creator
of worlds.
Prabhupada: But He has a form.
Ananda-marga woman: He has all
the forms. And the purest form, the most beautiful form, has shown itself to me
inside of me. It's the light and it's the music and it's the water. I cannot
name it Krsna because I do not believe in names.
Prabhupada: Do you know what
is the meaning of Krsna?
Ananda-marga woman: I believe Krsna was one form of
God. You said something about extension of Krsna. It's the same.
Prabhupada:
Krsna means "the all-attractive." As you say that God is so beautiful, so that
is, in other words, all-attractive. So if you have realized God, then you have
become perfect.
Ananda-marga woman: No.
Prabhupada: No?
Ananda-marga
woman: Whenever I realize God I receive it through my mind and not perfect. But
if I meditate and surrender, then there is no distance between me and God. I
reach God and I become one with God. And that's the only time I can call
everything true meditation. And that's the only time I experience this life in
me. And I cannot talk about it as "me and God" because it was the same as God,
because I became one with God. And there was no distance really.
Prabhupada:
Then you are God?
Ananda-marga woman: I am not God. I am just... I truly
experience this God through me all the time.
Prabhupada: You say that you and
God, one, and again you say that you are not...
Ananda-marga woman: If I
meditate, then I become surrendered to God. And I'm trying to do that by trying
to take this distance away.
Prabhupada: That means when you surrender to God,
then you become God, that you are surrendered God, and He is the person to be
surrendered. There are two Gods, why not? You say, "I surrender to
God."
Ananda-marga woman: I said when I surrender to God...
Prabhupada:
Yes, that means God is different from you; otherwise how you can surrender to
Him?
Ananda-marga woman: Right. When I am out, off in the world, when my mind
is working, then I'm separate from God. I have made myself separate from God by
the senses, by my mind, thinking. But then, when I...
Prabhupada: Then you
have to accept that you are one and different from God simultaneously. That is
the conclusion, that you say sometimes that you are one, and at the same time
you say different, therefore the philosophy comes to this point, that you are
simultaneously one and different from God.
Ananda-marga woman: The whole
thing is that the God is inside of me...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ananda-marga
woman: ...and for me to realize it, to become one with it, to realize it, not to
be away from it, I have it...
Prabhupada: Then who will realize? You are
different to realize. You say the God is within you. Therefore God is different
from you, but He is within you. You require to realize. Therefore you are
different from God. Otherwise there is no question of
realization.
Ananda-marga woman: You see. What I have experienced, I believe
it's my home. I believe it's where I have come from, because it is beyond
whatever I have experienced in this worldly life. And so I see that I have a
different shape. I have a body and I have a mind which distract me from my true
nature, which is God, which is godly and which is beautiful, which is light. But
when I surrender myself I become one with it again, I go back home. It is like
taking a trip, you know. And you always want to go back home, but you take a
trip because there is this wanting to go back home, and it's very beautiful. And
this body is like a trip, you know. Taking a body of human being is like a trip.
You're going to go back home, and you realize it, and you try to go back
home.
Prabhupada: That I can understand, that sometimes you realize that you
are one, and sometimes you realize that you are different. That means
simultaneously you are one and different from God. This is the conclusion.
Acintya-bhedabheda. This is the philosophy, acintya, inconceivable, one and
different, one because we are one in quality, and different in quantity. That is
our position. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananm. The Vedic information is like
that, that He is the Supreme Being amongst all beings. He is also being, we are
also being, but He is the Supreme Being. So as being, we are one, but as Supreme
and subordinate, we are different. This is the conclusion. As being, living
being, we are one. That is not very difficult. Just like in your country the
king, the Shah, he is also a being and you are also a being. But he is the
supreme being in this country. Although as human being you are equal, but so far
his power, his position is concerned, he is different. Similarly, as being, we
are one with God, but so far the power and position is concerned, He is too big,
the great. We are subordinate. This is our position. That is the right
conclusion.
Dr. Movebhed: Is that really the right conclusion?
Prabhupada:
Yes, this is the right conclusion, that God is also Supreme Being and we are
also being, so as being, we are one, but as Supreme, He is different. That is
the right conclusion. You are not Supreme Being. You are being controlled by the
Supreme Being. You cannot say that you are independent. Therefore you are not
Supreme. You are dependent on Him. Eko hi yasya vidadhati kaman, bahunam
vidadhati kaman. He maintains. Just like this coconut. God has given us this
coconut fruit to enjoy or to live upon it. But I cannot create this coconut. It
is not possible. Therefore, for my maintenance He has sent this coconut. So He
is maintainer; I am maintained, although He is being; I am also being. He is
maintainer being; I am maintained being. This is the right conclusion. No
scientist... He can talk so many things about this coconut, but unfortunately he
cannot manufacture this coconut. That is not possible. He can manufacture
something subordinate-chairs, table -- but not this coconut. Not
possible.
Guest: They... some scientists they manufactures this
coconut.
Prabhupada: Where is that foolish scientist?
Guest: No, let us
see. Someday some scientist manufactures this.
Prabhupada: "Someday"? Where?
Where? Where?
Guest: No, I am assuming.
Prabhupada: Assuming.
Guest:
One day he manufactures that. Then what? All this theory is gone?
Prabhupada:
No, we say he cannot.
Guest: No, that is now, today. But you also said we
can't...
Prabhupada: That you can say, today or tomorrow, but we know in the
history nobody has manufactured in the past, and nobody is manufacturing in the
present. How can I believe in the future?
Guest: I think many things that
were not done in the past are being done today.
Prabhupada: No. In the past
there was winter season. In the present there is winter season. Therefore I can
say next January will be winter season. That is nice. But if it is not happened
in the past or present, how you can say? That proposition is not accepted. In
the past there was birth, death, old age, and disease, in the present there is
birth, death, old age, and disease, and in the future there will be birth,
death, and old age and disease. This conclusion is all right. In the past there
was birth, death, old age, and disease. At the present there is birth, death,
and old age, disease. How you can say in the future there will be no birth, no
death, no old age...? That proposal is not very sound. You can say whimsically;
that is another thing. But factually it is not possible.
Indian man: Guruji,
according to the bhakti-yoga, a person starting at least in the elementary way
of bhakti-yoga...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Indian man: In the elementary way, if
he starts...
Prabhupada: What is that elementary way?
Indian man:
Half-heartedly.
Prabhupada: No, no what is that process elementary?
Indian
man: In the dvaita way. In the dvaita way, not in the advaita way, assuming that
He is different and I am different. That is the elementary way of starting
worship.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is always. Why elementary?
Indian man: He
is considering in that way.
Indian man: No, no. Assuming there had been,
supposing bhakti-yoga...
Prabhupada: Bhakti-yoga... First of all try to
understand what is bhakti-yoga.
Indian man: In the beginning it's relatively
easy to be...
Prabhupada: No, no. Explain what is bhakti-yoga.
Indian man:
No, what we have understood from the chapters only...
Prabhupada: So what is
that? What you have understood?
Indian man: Just surrender yourself
first...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: And then depend upon one God or one
Deity in whom you have a sort of immense belief or confidence.
Prabhupada:
No, you cannot create God. God is one, already there.
Indian man: No, no, but
then I can create in the form of Rama as one.
Prabhupada: That is not
creation.
Indian man: No, not creation, but I can have my own concentration
in the Rama-murti.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Indian man: Instead of
Krsna murti, I can...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Indian man: That
way.
Prabhupada: That's all.
Guest: Ah, that way. So that way is two
devatas, you see.
Prabhupada: Hm, yes.
Indian man: So supposing I start
simply chanting Ramesvara...
Prabhupada: Rama.
Indian man: Rama or
Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, that we are chanting.
Indian man: Any God's name,
any divine name...
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Indian man: You see? And then
why is it we are again getting breaks now and then and we trace back our
steps?
Prabhupada: No, you can... If you are following rigidly, there will be
no break.
Indian man: No, but rigidity is again a relative term. Rigidity
again... What is rigid?
Prabhupada: No, no, you said that you begin chanting
Rama.
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupada: So follow it.
Indian man: Yes, but
then there are breaks.
Prabhupada: Why break? If you are serious...
Indian
man: I don't get...
Prabhupada: No, no, if you are serious, there will be no
break.
Indian man: Ah. Then serious is also...
Prabhupada: Then you are
not serious.
Indian man: No, no, no, it is not the question of... No. Excuse
me, Guruji, that I am not able to explain to you properly. The point
is...
Prabhupada: Then hear me, that if you chant Rama, then gradually you
will get attachment for Rama. Then how you can give it up?
Indian man: Ah,
that is what I am lacking.
Prabhupada: That means you haven't got the
attachment. Your procedure has been failure.
Indian man: Ah, but sir, what is
lacking?
Prabhupada: Lacking, there are so many things. But one who is
actually chanting Rama, the result will be that he will get attachment. That is
the process. Adau sraddha tato sadhu-sangah atha bhajana-kriya, tato
anartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha tato rucih tatha asaktih tato bhavah. This
will increase. Just like if you have gone to school -- you have learned, began
to learning -- then your learning will increase. And one day you will come to
the stage of passing M.A. examination. And if it fails, that mean you did not go
to school very seriously. Otherwise the general process is you make progress and
come to the standard of passing M.A. examination. Then if you have gone to
school and you have not followed the rules and regulations, you have not
attended the teacher, the lessons, then you failure. That I am saying, that that
is not very seriously taken that "I am going to school. I must learn it." If one
is serious, then... That is recommended,
utsahat dhairyat
niscayat
tat-tat-karma-pravartanat
sato vrtteh sadhu-sange
sadbhih
bhaktih prasidhyati
These are the process. First of all the first process is
utsahah, enthusiasm: "I must advance in spiritual life." That is required. And
if you are failing enthusiasm, then in the beginning it is failure.
Indian
man: No, but then our attention is towards that thing.
Prabhupada: No, there
no attention. You have failed. That is the proof that you had no
attention.
Indian man: Yes, but then God should help us to keep
us...
Prabhupada: God is always helping, but if you do not accept it... God
says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up
all other engagement and take My shelter," but you are not doing that. That is
your fault. So it cannot be failure unless you are negligent. You have no
utsahah. This is the process. Utsahah dhairyah niscayah
tat-tat-karma-pravartanah, sato vrtteh. How these boys are advancing? They have
got enthusiasm: "Yes, we must make progress in Krsna consciousness." They have
given up everything. They are young men. They have got... Every young man has to
satisfy senses in so many ways. But no. They are so enthusiastic, but... For
understanding Krsna consciousness they have given up everything. They are
Europeans, Americans. They have got so many allurement. But I have told them
that "You must give up illicit sex," they have given up; "You must give up
meat-eating," they have given up; "You must give up intoxication up to drinking
tea and cigarette," and they have given up, these young men. So they are
utsahah. There is enthusiasm: "Yes, we must do it." That is wanted, not
theoretically on the armchair of devotional service. That will not be
successful. Armchair theory will not help you. You must be practical and there
must be enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. You are sitting in the same
position and you are thinking that you are making progress. That will fail. You
have to come out with enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. That is required.
Ciram vicinvan. There is a verse,
athapi te deva
padambuja-
dvaya-prasada-lesanugrhita eva hi
janati tattvam na
canya
eko 'pi ciram vicinvan
[SB 10.14.29]
If you simply
speculate, it will never help you. You have to receive the favor of the Supreme
Lord by your enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. Simply theorizing,
speculation will not... Therefore it is said ciram vicinvan. You can go on
speculating for millions and millions of years. It will never be successful.
Ciram. Ciram means perpetual. That will not help. This is the process, adau
sraddha. By sraddha, "Oh, here is God consciousness, very nice. Let us come and
see what they are doing." This is called sraddha, faith, little faith. Then in
order to increase that faith you have to associate with the persons who are
executing devotional service. That is called sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. The
devotees are called sadhu. Therefore we are opening centers, why? To give chance
people to make association with the devotees. Sadhu-sanga. And then sadhu-sanga,
after sadhu-sanga one who has properly made sadhu-sanga, the next stage is
bhajana-kriya: how they are executing devotional service. Then anartha-nivrttih
syat. Then this anartha. Anartha means unwanted things. Just like illicit sex,
meat-eating, intoxication, these are unwanted things. It is not necessary.
People have learned them by bad association. When one has got his wife, why he
should indulge in illicit sex? This is sinful. When we have got so many things
to eat, why shall I go to kill an animal, eat it? So these are anartha. Anartha
means "without any meaning." So these things become vanquished. If one is
actually engaged in devotional service, the first symptom will be that he is not
interested in things which are unwanted, artificial. These are the stages. Then
nistha. Nistha means firm conviction. Then rucih, taste. Then asaktih,
attachment. Then bhava, and then prema. So as a student is serious, he gets
promotion to next higher class, higher class, higher class, higher class,
gradually to the M.A. class. That is natural. But if in the beginning he is not
serious, no enthusiasm, then what is the reason that he will be promoted to the
higher section? That is not possible.
Indian man: No, enthusiasm is there,
but there are breaks.
Prabhupada: Breaks means he is not serious.
Indian
man: No, but there may be so many other things over which he has no
control.
Prabhupada: Other things, that is anartha. If you are really
enthusiastic, these anarthas will be vanquished automatically. Param drstva
nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. They are all Europeans, Americans, they are from the
childhood accustomed to meat-eating. How they have given up? Param drstva
nivartate: they have got better things to eat, therefore they have given up
meat-eating. So the rules and regulation are there; if we follow them strictly,
then everything one after another will come, the stages.
Indian man: Then it
is not necessary that one should join the Krsna conscious movement for that type
of helping.
Prabhupada: You cannot understand. I have said sadhu-sanga [Cc.
Madhya 22.83].
Indian man: That's all.
Prabhupada: That is... Krsna
consciousness movement should be associated; otherwise how you can understand
Krsna?
Indian man: But this is not the only association where one can go in
for...
Prabhupada: This is the only association for understanding Krsna
throughout the whole world.
Indian man: But can you prove
that?
Prabhupada: Yes. Find out another association like this.
Indian man:
No, but then...
Prabhupada: No, you find out another association like
this.
Indian man: No, association may not be as pompous as this association
is.
Prabhupada: Therefore there is no second.
Indian man: No, no,
no.
Prabhupada: You said that association may be as pompous. That means there
is no another association.
Indian man: No, pompous is different from the real
purpose.
Prabhupada: Then I do not know what is your real purpose. You say,
"There may not be. There may be." Again you say...
Indian man: No, Guruji,
you yourself have quoted the acaryas.
Prabhupada: So one who is following the
acaryas...
Indian man: Were they not Krsna conscious?
Prabhupada: Yes,
they say. Therefore I am giving their proof.
Indian man: So that means those
mathas also are Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Indian man: We can
join them also.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That is Krsna conscious.
Indian man:
Oh, I thought Krsna conscious only for this...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Any
association which is Krsna conscious, you can join.
Indian man: Thank you for
the enlightenment. But I have got one other doubt. You had told that some great
scholars like Mahatma Gandhi had confused and they did not believe in the Krsna
living, He ever lived, and Dr. Radhakrishnan and another also were not clear in
enunciating the theory of Krsna. I would like to know whether Krsna living or
not living, is it very important? And will the movement depends upon one Krsna
living, positive...
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Krsna is never not living --
He is living. Otherwise how He can be Krsna? But if you do not know whether He
is living or not living, that is your lack of knowledge.
Indian man: Do you
believe Krsna...
Prabhupada: No, first of all settle up this one question,
that Krsna is always living, and if you do not know whether Krsna is living or
not living, then your knowledge is imperfect. Therefore your knowledge will not
be accepted, because you are imperfect. That is the point.
Indian man: When
we speak of Bhagavad-gita, do we mean...
Prabhupada: You cannot say, "Krsna
is living or not. That doesn't matter." No, it matters.
Indian man: It
matters.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because Krsna is living but you do not know;
therefore your knowledge is imperfect.
Indian man: OK. Taking for granted
that is the basis, does this movement believe in Krsna Bhagavata or Krsna who
preached Bhagavad-gita, only this much or that much. Krsna
Bhagavata...
Prabhupada: You cannot say that Krsna Bhagavata, Krsna as
described in the Bhagavata, should be rejected, and Krsna in Bhagavad-gita
should be accepted. You cannot say that.
Indian man: No, just I wanted to
separate Them together because...
Prabhupada: Why?
Indian man: Some people
take Krsna of Bhagavad-gita. So far as Bhagavad-gita was preached by a
philosopher like Krsna, all other things are not so pertinent. But when people
associate Krsna with Bhagavata, Krsna of Mahabharata and Krsna of Bhagavad-gita,
Bhagavad-gita being a apart from Bharata, if they all take together there's a
lot of confusion.
Prabhupada: Krsna of Bhagavad-gita, Krsna of Bhagavata and
Krsna, Mahabharata -- the same.
Indian man: Thank you. I know a little about
that, but still, if you we take Krsna of Bhagavata, and if you want to say,
explain all the things that had happened pertaining to Krsna, it would be very
difficult to explain the same thing with Krsna of Bhagavad-gita. That Krsna of
Bhagavad-gita will be separate to everybody.(?)
Prabhupada: No, therefore...
No, therefore... Therefore we say that first of all you understand Krsna of
Bhagavad-gita. That is the ABCD of Krsna. Then you go to Bhagavatam.
Dr.
Movebhed: I feel... If I am not wrong, I feel that what others have done, that
Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, etc., etc., they have taught that Krsna of
Bhagavad-gita is very much important for us. Whether He was living or whether He
did not live, or anything which was in the name of Krsna, that is quite (sic:)
impertinent. We want to have the philosophy of Krsna as enunciated in
Bhagavad-gita, is just enough to tell others who are in need
of...
Prabhupada: That's all right. But if you do not believe in that person,
how do you understand his philosophy?
Dr. Movebhed: That's where... I think I
may be wrong. Please correct me if I go wrong. That's where people have taken
little, two to three steps, as my friend has told, first advaita. She wanted to
have two...
Prabhupada: No, no, why advaita, dvaita? First of all you take
the preliminary things, that you are accepting the philosophy of Krsna,
Bhagavad-gita, but you have no knowledge of the person who has spoken
Bhagavad-gita. Then where is your understanding? You do not understand the
person who has spoken the Bhagavad-gita. Then what is the meaning of your
understanding Bhagavad-gita?
Indian man: No, we have to try...
Prabhupada:
No, no. Try, try, another thing.
Indian man: We have to understand
it.
Prabhupada: No, you have to understand it... First of all you have to
understand Krsna, the person who is speaking.
Indian man: Oh, you mean Krsna
the person you must understand, then Krsna of Bhagavad-gita you must
understand.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the way. You read any book; you learn
first of all about the author, his life, his everything.
Indian man:
Sometimes we need not...
Prabhupada: No, it is needed. It is needed. No, that
is the way.
Indian man: We need not approach the guru. What he speaks that is
enough sometimes.
Prabhupada: No, that is the way. You read any book. You try
to understand, to know something about the author. That is natural.
Indian
man: When He rips up (unclear) partha, that's enough, just we will start out.
Then when He say, mam ekam saranam vraja, again we will go to Him. But we need
not go through...
Prabhupada: No, no. That is needed. That is needed. That is
needed. If you do not understand what is Krsna, when Krsna says, mam ekam
saranam vraja, how you will accept it?
Indian man: I will accept, but not as
Krsna of Bhagavata. I may not know anything about Him as of...
Prabhupada:
No, no, this is not very good theory. You do not know anything about Him, and
you surrender to Him. What is this?
Indian man: We may have our own
idea.
Prabhupada: No, we don't accept that. If we surrender, we must know Him
first of all, what He is. Then we surrender. We are not blind. Suppose you tell
me that "You surrender unto me." Shall I do that? Why shall I do it?
Indian
man: But...
Prabhupada: No "but." First of all answer this. If I do not know
anything about you and you demand from me, "You surrender," shall I do
it?
Indian man: I will be knowing what He has preached, if I... That
preaching itself is enough and we need not look anything about Him. We can
surrender.
Prabhupada: That He preaches...
Indian man: That preaching is
enough.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Indian man: We need not know what He
is.
Prabhupada: That's all right. You accept His preaching?
Indian man: If
it is accepted, then we can surrender. I was questioning only this point,
whether the Krsna of Bhagavata is necessary to accept...
Prabhupada: No, no,
set aside Bhagavatam. I have told you that first of all you try to understand
Krsna from the Bhagavad-gita.
Indian man: If that is enough, it's
enough.
Prabhupada: Enough. But if you say that you don't believe in the
Krsna, whether He was living or not, then you have not understood
Bhagavad-gita.
Indian man: I know the living Krsna will come in
Bhagavad-gita, I hope.
Prabhupada: No. He says... He says that mattah
parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no superior
authority than Me." Then if you do not understand what is that Krsna, then how
you accept Him as superior authority?
Guest: I think we have to define the
concept of God first, and then only...
Prabhupada: No, no, concept of God is
there in the Bhagavad-gita.
Guest: What is that concept first,
please?
Prabhupada: That He says, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. God
means the Supreme. So He says, "There is no more superior supreme than Me." Then
He is God. And if you accept the teachings of Bhagavad-gita, then you have to
accept He is God. Otherwise what you have understood, Bhagavad-gita? You have
manufactured your own way. He says... If you study Bhagavad-gita, He says,
mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So God means the
Supreme. So He says, "I am the Supreme. There is no more superior supreme." Then
you have to accept Him God.
Indian man: OK.
Prabhupada: Then?
Indian
man: We have accepted, but Krsna need not be one form as somebody else has
written...
Prabhupada: That... Just like... That form is God also.
Indian
man: That is also an imagination of Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. That form is
also God. Accepting your theory that there are many forms of God, so that form
is also God.
Indian man: That form, OK, I agree...
Prabhupada: So we
accept Him, God, either way.
Indian man: But need not be a definite form. He
need not have a definite form.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. There may be different
form. But that form is God. Then you have to accept Him God.
Indian man: Yes,
OK. And when I say one form, it may be formless also, and I
may...
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, that form is God. You have to
accept.
Indian man: OK, I will accept.
Prabhupada: Then if you accept God,
the whole thing is finished.
Indian man: We accept God, but just I was
telling...
Indian man: No, same thing as that lady was telling, she sees that
God is a light.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be... That we accept. God is
light, God... There are many forms, but that form is God.
Indian man:
Therefore, definition is "a supreme."
Prabhupada: Yes, that form is supreme.
That you have to accept. That you accept. Then there is no quarrel with you.
Krsna may have many forms, God may have many forms, but that form is God. That
you have to accept. That is understanding of Bhagavad-gita.
Dr. Movebhed:
Well, I think, sir, when they say that comment, Radhakrishnan, when they say
that, it's not important to know whether...
Prabhupada: But Radhakrishnan
says, "It is not to Krsna." When Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji
mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Krsna." Then if he
accepts Krsna as God, why does he say, "It is not to Krsna"?
Indian man: This
is God. Some may accept Him as Krsna, some may accept Him as some other
thing.
Prabhupada: That is accepted. But that form is God.
Indian man:
God, he accepts it as God.
Prabhupada: That he does not accept.
Indian
man: God, he will say.
Prabhupada: No, no. He doesn't accept that. That is
the difficulty.
Nitai: He says, "It is not to Krsna."
Prabhupada: And if
he has accepted Krsna as God, why does he say "not to Krsna"?
Guest: No, he
may not call that Krsna. He will call it "to the Supreme," what you said
now.
Prabhupada: Why not Supreme? Then he has not accepted
Bhagavad-gita.
Indian man: Guruji, Guruji, even acaryas, Sankaracarya, when
he wrote commentaries on Prasthana(?) prayer...
Prabhupada: No.
Sank...
Indian man: ...he would think towards his own
philosophy.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no. He...
Indian man:
Sankaracarya, when he writes on this Bhagavad-gita, he gives...
Prabhupada:
Sankaracarya says sa bhagavan svayam krsnah. You refer to the commentary of
Bhagavad-gita of Sankaracarya. So in the beginning he says, sa bhagavan svayam
krsnah. Narayanah parah avyaktat avyaktad anya-sambhavah. So he has explained.
Sa bhagavan svayam krsnah. And what to speak of other acaryas, Ramanujacarya...
They accept, all, Krsna. Madhvacarya... They worship Krsna. So Krsna may have
many forms, that is accepted. But that form, Krsna, He is God. That you have to
accept. You cannot deny that.
Guest: He was asking something. Your question
was?
Guest (2): I thought when some people say that it wasn't very important
to know whether Krsna was living or not, they talk to Krsna as a historical
fact, as an individual, as a person who lived within the framework of time and
space. Krsna as an individual, as a historical person, might not even important,
as they said Asoka(?) or Christ or...
Prabhupada: (Aside to devotee:) You
come here. I do not follow the accent, you hear and tell.
Guest: What would
be important was Krsna teachings. One must, could not be confined to any one
period of time. He is incarnation of God and somebody who was talking for the
truth and in the name of the truth, and... [break]
Prabhupada: ...fact is
that if you have got different views about Krsna, then you cannot prove that
from the Bhagavad-gita. That you cannot prove. If you take Bhagavad-gita, then
you must present it as it is. Don't distort it. You may have got some idea, but
you explain that idea in your different book. But don't place it as the
explanation of Bhagavad-gita. That is not very good. If you have got different
theory, you can write in a different book. But we cannot permit or do not like
that as the commentary of Bhagavad-gita you will place something different. That
is not very honest. You put your own theory. Why should you try to put your
theory through Bhagavad-gita? That we protest. Therefore we are presenting
Bhagavad-gita As It Is. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said that "There
is no superior authority than Me." Therefore He is the God. Mam eva ya
prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam
pravartate [Bg. 10.8]: "I am the origin of everything." And if you have got
different idea, that somebody else is the origin, that you can explain
differently. But you cannot keep it as explanation of Bhagavad-gita. Then it is
distortion, because in the Bhagavad-gita it is said,
aham sarvasya
prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
He becomes final,
iti matva bhajante
mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
[Bg. 10.8]
Iti matva: "One who knows
this perfectly well that Krsna is the origin of everything, he becomes a
devotee." Iti matva bhajante mam budha. Budha mean very learned.
Bhava-samanvitah: "Oh, here is the supreme cause, or Krsna." The philosophy
means to search out the supreme cause. That is philosophy. Find out the ultimate
cause. That is darsana. In Sanskrit it is called darsana, find out what is the
supreme cause. So here it is explained, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8],
sarvasya, including whatever you know. Sarvasya means including everything. "So
whatever you know, the cause of everything, that cause is also I am." And that
is confirmed in the Vedic literature, sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1].
isvarah
paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir
govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]
And the Vedanta-sutra,
the Absolute Truth, janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "the origin of everything."
Now, here it is. Krsna says, "I am the origin of everything." You are making
search, but here is the origin here. Now you study Krsna, whether actually He is
the origin of everything. At least we know that this universe, the origin is
Lord Brahma. But we know that the Brahma is also emanation from Krsna. Brahma's
knowledge also comes from Krsna. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Tene
brahma hrda adi-kavaye muhyanti yat surayah, om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. And
Krsna says. Arjuna accepts, sarvam idam rtam manye: "Yes, I accept." So that
should be the process of understanding Krsna. If you manufacture your own way,
that is different thing. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. All
the acaryas... Take all the acaryas. At least in our country we are guided by
the acaryas. Take any acarya. They have accepted. Brahma has accepted. So in
this way you have to understand. We cannot manufacture our own way.
Guest:
There is some our acaryas. How about Christ or Muhammad and Zarathustra, all
these people?
Prabhupada: They accept God, that's all. But God is here
explained. They cannot give an explicit idea of God. But here is God speaking
personally. They have got "There is God," "God is great." That's nice. But who
is that God, how He is great, that they have to learn further. Simply a vague
idea, that "God is great..." One should know how He is great and who is that
great. That is perfection. So that is explained here. They accept God. That
is... They are also our brother because they accept God. They are not atheist.
Atheists, they don't accept God. "There is no God" -- that is atheist. But here
they are theist. They accept God. They want to please God. They go to the
church, go to the mosque, offer prayer. Prayer is also bhakti, devotional
service. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam
dasyam... [SB 7.5.23]. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam..., arcanam vandanam.
Vandanam. The Christian way or the Muslim way, to offer... The Muslim offer
obeisances and offer prayer. So that is also bhakti. The Christian also do that,
so that is also bhakti. And they accept God; we accept God. So there is no
difference. But the only point is who is that God.
Guest: They accept as
supreme power.
Prabhupada: No, supreme power must be that... Behind the power
there must be powerful.
Guest: They say powerful but what
about...
Prabhupada: Yes, then we have to know this powerful, not only the
power. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate
sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. In another place, srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir
eka chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga [Bs. 5.44]. Durga is power. Power is
in... What kind of power? Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka. She can
create, she can maintain and she can destroy, so powerful. But this power,
srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva [Bs. 5.44], is working just like
shadow. Just like here is shadow. I am moving this hand; the shadow is moving.
Shadow is not independently moving. Therefore this gigantic power, material
energy, is working under the direction of Krsna. That is stated in the
Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena: [Bg. 9.10] "under My superintendence." So we are
allured with the power, but who is manipulating this power we do not know. That
is God.
Guest: Well, sir, this is a point which I really fail to understand
because...
Prabhupada: But that is everyone's dilemma, that "What is this
power?" The scientists, the (sic:) physists, they are seeing the power. The
power is working and energy is working. But how it is working, that is further
enquiry.
Guest: I have three points. First of all I have nothing... I have
seen nothing in Bhagavad-gita, although it is a work of the most beautiful of
all these books which are attributed to God and are supposed to be speaked in
the name of God. It is one of the beautiful book among these (Parsi?). But
sincerely there is nothing in Bhagavad-gita about God which you cannot find
similar passage, a passage similar to it in Koran or in other teachings. That's
my first point. The second point is that if we believe to God and we believe
that the God has spoken only through Bhagavad-gita to, thus, a people who live
in a given country, then we are going to have a very narrow-minded God who
doesn't love all human beings...
Prabhupada: No. No there. Here, here I
impress...
Guest: He has bestowed all His love to a given people. And my
third point is that if we believe God as a life force or who must be discovered
by a human being and the human being who has to proceed toward this truth, then
also we have no reason to confine this into one people.
Indian man: Swamiji,
I may take your leave.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Why you are going soon?
Indian
man: I have to go still far off.
Prabhupada: Oh, all right. Jaya.
Jaya.
Guest: So I think what we have in Islam is... They say that the road,
the way towards God, the ways are many, as many as the human beings, that is
said. So in the number of human beings you have ways towards God. So everybody,
each person, has his own way towards God. And it's really hard for me, difficult
for me to believe that there's only one way and there is only one book and one
school, one way of teaching.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest: And when Muhammad
said that God is great, he simply said God is great, and he adds nothing to it
for somebody who is well acquainted with Islam culture and he who knows well
about Koran's teachings, it cannot be understood and accepted. It is the same
with somebody who is well acquainted with Christianity and the truth spoken
through Christianity. It is the same with the Buddhism or other ways which are
designed, which are...
Prabhupada: So your point is that God is understood in
different ways. That is not point?
Atreya Rsi: That's one of his
points.
Prabhupada: And what is the other point?
Atreya Rsi: That all the
scriptures speak of the same truth. Scriptures coming from God speak of the same
truth that is in Bhagavad-gita. And all the scriptures give a real path to God,
and that there..., as many as individuals as there are, there are ways of
getting to God, and that God could not be fair if He just gave one book at one
time to one group of people. Being just, He has given the scripture... He should
have...
Prabhupada: No, just like dictionary. The small pocket dictionary is
also dictionary, and the international dictionary, (sic?) Webs, that is also
dictionary. So both of them are dictionary, but they are not equal. One
dictionary is meant for children and one dictionary is meant for the higher
scholars. So although are dictionaries, they are two kinds of
dictionaries.
Guest: Do you know, sir, that it is exactly the same way of
thinking which we have in our people who believe to Muhammad? They think that
the teaching of Muhammad is the most superior one. And others... Of course,
Muslims do believe to others' religions, to Moses, to Christ, and so on. They
have the same way of thinking. They think that they are elementary
stages...
Prabhupada: The point is... Yes.
Guest: ...and Muhammad's
teaching is supposed to be the superior one. So everybody thinks that his way or
his way of thinking, his theory, his religion is the most superior
one.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That is all right. If you accept
progress... Just like you are seeing the sun, I am also seeing the sun, the boy
is also seeing the sun, but the understanding of the sun may be different.
Everyone is seeing the sun. The objective is the same. But a child's
understanding of sun and an elderly man's understanding of sun, a scientist's
understanding of sun, or one man who has actually gone to the sun planet, there
are different categories. Do you accept or not? The sun is there. God is
accepted in every scripture. That is a fact. But in the same way, how far He is
understood, that is different. That is different. The same example, that
everyone is seeing sun: "Here is sun," there is no doubt. But a child's
understanding of sun, his father's understanding of sun, or a scientist's
understanding of sun, or a person who has gone to the sun planet, his
understanding of sun is different. The objective is the same. And everyone is
right. Either you understand fully sun or not, as soon as you come before the
sun you get the light. The child is getting the light, the scientist is getting
the light, and the ordinary person getting the light. Everyone is getting light,
heat and light. But their understanding different, of degrees. [break]
...sun-god or sun, no, we don't say that.
Guest: From what you have said in
the answer to this gentleman, I thought you meant, sir, when the only
perfect...
Prabhupada: No.
Guest: ...teaching about God is provided
through the sun.
Prabhupada: No, just like if you want to understand sun,
say... what is called? Geography? Then you have to learn from the person who
knows geography. You cannot learn from a person who has superficially studied.
Then you have to go to the person who knows scientifically, astronomically, that
sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this planet. You have to go
to the astronomer. How far the sun is situated from us? So you have to go to the
particular person who knows it. You cannot say that his knowledge and the
child's knowledge, who is seeing the sun as a disc is the same. That you cannot
say. If you want to know further enlightenment of the sun then you have to go to
the person who is studying sun scientifically. So one who has studied the sun
scientifically, his knowledge and a casual person seeing the sun, his knowledge
is not the same. That you cannot say. Although everyone is seeing the sun,
that's all right, but the knowledge of the sun, there are different.
Devotee:
That seems to answer all of your three points at once.
Atreya Rsi: One thing
here is that we are not talking about religion or designation.
Guest: In that
case I think we have no (indistinct).
Atreya Rsi: Yes, it's not a
religion.
Prabhupada: No, if you want to study something, and suppose you are
sometimes from India, the same subject he's going to study in foreign country,
farther enlightenment, it is also not necessary that to study a subject matter
more and more, we have to remain in the same jurisdiction. If I am actually
anxious to know more and more, it doesn't matter whether I get the knowledge
from Mohammedan or Hindu or Christian, it doesn't matter. Knowledge is
knowledge. When a student goes from one country to another to get farther
enlightenment on a subject matter, he does not think that "I'll have to learn it
from here, from my university." For knowledge, progress of knowledge, you can go
to any university. Because knowledge must be scientific. It is not restricted
within the jurisdiction of a particular university. So, sun we are seeing,
everyone, the sun, getting heat and light but if anyone is interested (to) know
how the heat is coming, how the light is coming, what is the situation of the
sun globe, whether there are living entities or not. They're also subject
matter. So if you can get enlightenment of the sun, we should not restrict
ourselves that we have to study with this jurisdiction of my university, or my
country, or my society. If the knowledge is there, we should be prepared to go
forward. Mm.
Lady: If we believe in God as the Supreme Being... I have a
question. Why do we wish to God, to Krsna movement in chanting worldly name
because the name of God is something which is eternal. If Krs...
Prabhupada:
Hold on, then, what is the name of God?
Lady: Right, in Christianity there is
write: "In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was
God."
Prabhupada: That's all right. But what is the name of God?
Lady: In
Islamic religion, they say...
Prabhupada: No, what is the name of God? Islam
is the system of religion, but what is the name of God?
Lady: The name of God
is something which is always with God, constantly with God...
Prabhupada:
That means you do not know that. You do not know that.
Lady: I do know
that...
Prabhupada: Then why don't you say?
Lady: ...experience the name
of God...
Guest: It's very similar to what we have got in Bhagavad-gita. He
says, "You call it Allah..."
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Guest: "...or
you call it atman, whatever name you call it, He has all nicest names." So all
nicest name are His.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest: That's what we have got
in...
Prabhupada: Well, I accept, I accept that all the, that's all right,
all the nicest name. So Krsna means all-attractive. Is it not very nice? Just
reply whether this Krsna name is nice or not?
Guest: Yes, of course. Nobody
is against Krsna.
Prabhupada: Then chant it. Then chant it.
Guest:
Everybody loves Krsna and...
Prabhupada: No, no, if you accept Krsna name is
nice, then chant it.
Guest: I don't think that point is...
Prabhupada: No,
you say God has got the nicest name.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: I
say...
Guest: But the name is just an indication, the name is something we
call it, it is for us to have a word.
Prabhupada: But that I ask you, that
what is that name? As I have... We have got the nicest name, Krsna. Now you
suggest that this is the nicest name in Mohammedan, Krsna. You say me
that.
Atreya Rsi: Allah.
Prabhupada: You say, "What is that
name?"
Guest: First of all, this man is talking (indistinct) any difference
to call it Allah.
Prabhupada: No, no, I don't make any difference but I want
to know, I want to know what is that nicest name. I don't make any
difference.
Guest: Well, it's called (indistinct) they call it
Allah.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Then our request is that you chant the
name of God. So if Allah is the name of God, you chant Allah, don't chant Krsna.
We say that.
Lady: The name of God is not something could be spoken to
(indistinct), it is unspoken.
Prabhupada: No, we don't accept that. Name
means it can be spoken. (guests all speak at once) Not commentary, name means
that... When I call you by your name, it is spoken. It is spoken. I know your
name... If I say I cannot speak it. (laughter) This is...
Guest: ...is for me
to designate me because it is...
Prabhupada: No, you have said that God's
name is Allah, that is accepted. Very good. And we request you...
Guest:
...means of communication.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guest: Just, not that, no, a
word Allah is not to God, it is a means of communication.
Prabhupada:
Whatever it may be, you have accepted the name of God as Allah, is it
not?
Atreya Rsi: But he's saying that their name is material, it's
different...
Prabhupada: No, no, then you have no idea of God. God is not
material. God is not material.
Guest: Well, you have said though have a lion,
lion who lives in the forest and you write lion.
Prabhupada: That is
material, that is material.
Guest: What you write here is not the true lion.
Is, is a way of communication, you put it here in words.
Prabhupada: Lion is,
lion is material, and his name is also material, but God is not material. God is
spiritual. Therefore His name is spiritual.
Guest: We accept
that.
Prabhupada: As spiritual... (two of the guests speak at once)
Guest:
What do you think about the spirit?
Guest (2): Soul, human soul, soul is not
material, but when you write it, it's a word, a material word.
Atreya Rsi:
Yes, but the name of God, we accept as the same quality as God. If it is a
concocted name, then it's not the same quality. But if it is the name of God,
given to us by God, or by His representatives, we accept that as good as God and
that is the philosophy behind chanting. Otherwise why chant?
Guest: Well,
it's a very old teaching. We have got it.
Atreya Rsi: I know you have it,
accept it. Accept it. There is no question, just accept it. It doesn't matter if
you have got it, or I have got it.
Guest: You attribute some sort of
mysterious attributes to word, to certain word.
Atreya Rsi: None. There is
only...
Guest: They are created by the human being.
Atreya Rsi: It is not
created by human being.
Guest: It is because it does..., it differs from one
country to from one language to other language.
Atreya Rsi: God, God has
many, many names like it says in Koran.
Guest: Yes, but one name in Turkish
when you say Tamgri, Tari (?) in Arabic when you say Allah, in French, in
English, in Sanskrit. So these are different words.
Prabhupada:
But...
Atreya Rsi: Those are names.
Guest: These different things are
created by human beings.
Atreya Rsi: We are talking about one name which is
to describe the concept of God. When we are also talking about the name of God.
When we are talking about the name of God... In other words, if I don't know who
you are, I have to ask somebody, "What is his name?" That is your
name.
Guest: But my name is my name in Turkey, in English, in Arabic, in
anywhere you go.
Prabhupada: That's all right, then let the Turkish chant the
name of Turkish name.
Guest: But God, the name is different.
Atreya Rsi:
Yes, But if you find what his name is,...
Prabhupada: But the name must be
chanted that is our program. It may be Turkish name, it may be Arabic name, it
may be Sanskrit name. Whatever he knows let him chant. That is our
program.
Atreya Rsi: But the concept of name of God is separate than
designation, which you are talking about. Man-made designation. And this
concept, if you don't accept this concept, how do you accept the concept of
chanting in Islam. These are the points. Bhagavad-gita also. There are so many
concepts in there, but we want to interpret them all, we don't want to accept
them. We want to accept our mind. Prabhupada, what he has been saying all
evening is: "Let's accept Bhagavad-gita as authority. Let's accept Koran as
authority. Let's accept an authority." Because we want to go by our senses. We
want to go around modern...
Guest: Yes, (indistinct) as
authorities.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: But let us accept it. Let us
accept it. It's not they... I accept them and they are still the victim of my
interpretation. If we accept them, what is this? That let's not interpret that
God's name is just a designation just like my name. It's just a word.
Guest:
Name cannot be perfect(?). Name of name cannot be perfect.
Atreya Rsi: Well,
then we are talking about the difference...
Guest: Something is something
else.
Atreya Rsi: What is it?
Guest: You are entitled to chant the name of
your beloved, that is something else. It does not mean different stages with the
name...
Atreya Rsi: But who is this beloved? Who is this beloved? Who is this
beloved? Who is this beloved?
Guest: In our case, God.
Atreya Rsi: So this
name of God is diff... If God is transcendental, if God is spiritual then how
could His name be committed to our relative conceptions. [break]
Prabhupada:
...indicates God, then it is not bad. That is our point. If we indicates to
God... Just like Allah. If this name indicates to God, then it is this Allah
word as good as God. There is no difference. Namnam akari bahudha nija sarva
sakti. The Allah, the conception of Allah means The Great, is it not? So God is
Great. So by chanting Allah, I am meaning God, the Supreme Person, so it is as
good. And actually in Mosque, they chant Allah-u-akbar, like that, so far I've
heard. So that prayer, if it is not God's name, then what is the use of this
prayer? That is God's name. Similarly, the Hindus may chant Hare Krsna, they're
indicating to the same personality. It may be different language; therefore, it
is as good as God because God is absolute. But this, this name is authorize
because Muhammad said that you chant, "Allah." So it is authorized, because he
is God's representative. Therefore my request is, or our request is that you
chant the name of Allah. We don't say that you chant Krsna. You chant the Holy
name of God. If Allah is approved name of God, you chant it. That is our
request. We don't force you that you chant the name of Krsna. No, we don't say
that. If somebody says Jehovah is the name of God, that's all right, you chant
Jehovah. Allah is the name of God, that's all right, you do it. We simply
request that you chant the holy name of God. That's all. If you have got it, we
don't force you that you chant the name of Krsna. That is not our way. We
accept: if Allah is God's name, it is as good as the name Krsna. We are not so
sophisticated that you have to chant this Krsna's name. No, we say: Harer nama.
That is the sastra, harer nama. The name of the Lord. So there are many
thousands of names, that's a fact. So you actually chant the name of God. Pick
up of the millions of God's name, whatever you like, you pick up and chant. That
is our propagation.
harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam
kalau
nasty eva, nasty eva, nasty eva gathir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
In
this age of quarrel and disagreement, God realization is very difficult;
therefore, you chant the Holy name of God, then you'll gradually realize Him.
This is our program. So we don't force you that you chant this name Krsna. No,
sastra says, harer nama, the holy name of God, chant. That is our
program.
Lady: Before you ask with something else. I ask, how could you meet
the Supreme being by chanting...
Prabhupada: By chanting, yes.
Lady: ...by
chanting of worldly name, tuned on prayer...
Prabhupada: That is not worldly
name. Why do you mistake that? God's name is not worldly.
Lady: Because if
you, if you really know the tuning of God...
Prabhupada: Do you think Allah
is wordly name?
Lady: We recognize that it is before Krsna...
Prabhupada:
That's all right, you recognize it. Allah, Allah is not worldly name. It is
given by the authority Muhammad so you have to chant it, who knows God.
Lady:
But he didn't really mean Allah is the name of God.
Prabhupada: If... Why do
you say he didn't mean?
Lady: Because...
Prabhupada: That is you say.
Muhammad did not say that "What I say, I did not mean it."
Lady: No, the name
of God. He didn't mean Allah.
Prabhupada: You say, you say. Who cares for
your word? Muhammad said this is the name of God. We have to accept, that's
all.
Lady: So why...
Prabhupada: You cannot say he didn't mean. You are
not a private secretary of Muhammad. (laughter)
Lady: So then how do they say
that the name of God rests in God.
Prabhupada: No, these things are not
accepted.
Lady: Was before God.
Prabhupada: Don't talk childish.
Lady:
Was God.
Prabhupada: Muhammad said. That is authority. That we accept. We
accept Muhammad as the representative of God. Whatever he says, we accept,
that's all. What you meant, that is his business. But he is authority, he said
that "This is the name of God. You chant, you pray." Allah or God. That's all.
That is authority.
Guest: Is it also good to chant the name of a person who
is holy, who is one with God, not the name of God.
Prabhupada: That you have
to find out, but here it is already there. Why should do trouble to find out a
holy man, another holy man? The holy man says, Muhammad never said that "You
chant my name." Then how one can be holy man if he says like that? We have to
test whether he is holy man or not. Here is the perfect holy man. He never said
that "You chant my name." He said "Chant Allah's name." That is holy man. That
is test of holy man. He does not become God, he serves God. That is holy
man.
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: All right. Take, give prasadam. All
right.
Devotee: We have a feast.
Prabhupada: All right.
Devotee: Thank
you Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. (devotees pay
obeisances, and some guests leave) Jaya, Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break]
Devotee:
Jaya, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: We accept Muhammad's authority. That's a
fact. He's authority.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Yes,
this girl is a follower of Guru Maharaji.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Devotee:
(indistinct) this way.
Atreya Rsi: So she thinks she has
experience.
Prabhupada: Very nonsense.
Atreya Rsi: She speaks sweetly to
attract other people's mind, and when people are not really sincere, they think,
"Ah, she has..."
Prabhupada: Some realization.
Atreya Rsi: So many, they
don't realize that spiritual life is not so cheap.
Prabhupada: Therefore I
said that you, your person cannot (indistinct). So is Guru Maharaji came
here?
Atreya Rsi: No, they came.
Devotee: They're his representatives.
That's his philosophy that there is no, you cannot speak the name of God. It's
too sacred to speak it. You can only feel it inside. And he never... His
disciples they look at each other and say, "You can feel the name of God, eh?"
And the other one says, "Oh yes," and another one says, "Yes, me too." But
actually, they call it the sixth principle.
Prabhupada: But if he says, "No,
I don't feel," is that difficulty?
Devotee: Then he'll be cast
away.
Atreya Rsi: What they don't have really, is the practice of devotional
service. They don't have...
Prabhupada: That is finished, I think. Their
propaganda is already finished. Nobody cares for them. How they are...? You can
cheat all people for some time, and some people for all time, (laughter) but not
all people for all time. That is not possible. This is their policy. Some fruits
are there?
Devotee: Yes, Prabhupada. Some juice also.
Atreya Rsi: Shall we
make some fresh juice?
Prabhupada: No, no. That's all right.
(end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975,
Iran
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