Prabhupada: ...take the credit.
And what is your credit? It is already there for millions of years. Why you are
anxious to produce this? Without your help it is being produced. So why you
spending our hard-earned money and cheating us? You are cheater. You should be
punished. These things are already going on. For you there is no scarcity of
life. Then why you are spending our tax to show your talent? What is your
talent? You are simply cheating us -- "We shall do it..." You do or do not, the
things are already there. Why you are taking our money to make research? You are
cheating us. You should be punished. You will be punished. Even the state does
not punish, you'll be punished by the Supreme Lord because you are cheating. So
you can cheat us, but you cannot cheat God. Regular punishment will be there.
Millions of years it has been going on, and I want to tell (?) you, just tell
(?) you (indistinct). The same example-millions of dogs are barking, and this
man has learned how to bark. He is selling tickets. You see? You are driving
away barking dog, and because this rascal has learned how to bark, you have to
pay for it. What do you say?Yasodanandana: So they would say, "Well, we do
not claim any credit, but, similarly, you cannot give God credit, because it is
going on as a biochemical reaction."
Prabhupada: Why not? That is your rascaldom. You cannot produce it. Why do you say like that? You rascal, you produce by biochemical combination. That is your rascaldom. That is not science. You are talking like a child. That's all. Credit must be given to God. He's already doing it very systematically. Why shall I... I am not such a fool that I have to give credit to you.
Yasodanandana: No, that is not the question, to give credit to me. But just because you can't...
Prabhupada: Anyone who is producing, either or God or somebody, or somebody is doing that. I must see, (indistinct) ...not to you. You may not accept God, but somebody is doing that. As you are trying to do it, similarly, somebody else is already there. Therefore he should get the credit. Why you are claiming to get the credit? That is not right. Anybody... Just like you are somebody, you are trying to take all the credit. So similarly, somebody is already doing. So he should get the credit.
Yasodanandana: Their objection is to "he."
Prabhupada: But why you are "he"?
Yasodanandana: Oh, I'm simply attempting.
Prabhupada: Attempting... You are "he"? You are person. You are attempting. You are foolish, you are attempting. But there is another person who has already done it. As you are a person, you are trying to do it, it is being already done by another person.
Yasodanandana: Maybe because I am person...
Prabhupada: That is not maybe. Maybe... As soon as you say "maybe" then you'll be slapped. No knowledge. It is not a question of "maybe." It must be factual. Is that all right?
Yasodanandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Attack these rascals strongly in big, big meetings, and slap them, "Why you are cheating and spending our hard-earned money, taxes?" Better follow us. We are giving all credit to the person who has already..., going on with the big man. Very systematically it is going on. For ourself, we are human being. When there are long hairs, we cut. That person's (indistinct) is so nice... nobody's going to cut the (indistinct) ...of the street. But annually, they are already being changed. The whole (indistinct), thrown away. Who's doing that? You must get credit. It is very nice here in the springtime.
Brahmananda: They have never seen God. They can see chemicals, but they cannot...
Prabhupada: You are trying. How you can see? You rascal, you are blind. You, how can you see? You have to treat your eyes, then you will see. We are seeing. We are not blind like you. You are blind. You require treatment. You come to the treatment. You cannot see.
Yasodanandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupada: Ha?
Yasodanandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupada: Then how he claims to..., claims others' faith upon him? He's more than a doctor? Doctor is also as good as scientist as you are. If you do not have faith in the doctor why do you claim people should have faith in you? Where is the proof that you'll be able? Why you are asking us blindly to follow you? What is your answer?
Nitai: Sometimes they say that if we can control, if we can produce...
Prabhupada: But I'm protesting that you cannot control. You are rascal. You are thinking like that. That is our charge against you, that you cannot control. In the history there is not a single instance that man has controlled nature. But nature has controlled man. That is the history. Where is the proof that you shall control? You are controlled. Nature is forcing you to become an old man. You are becoming. You control like that, that you remain a young man. Nature is controlling you to die. You control nature that death will not be forced upon me. So where is the history that man has controlled nature?
Nitai: They say that now we are controlling atomic energy and now we are controlling...
Prabhupada: What is that atomic energy? What is the use of it? We'll die. Without atomic energy you'll die. What is that control? Death is already there, and you're utilizing atomic energy for death, that's all. So what is your credit? You use atomic energy that you'll not die. Then it is control. Death is already there. You might have atomic energy or no atomic energy -- you have to die. By atomic energy you are accelerating the same problem of death, that's all.
Tamala Krsna: Gradually we are learning how to become deathless.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasodanandana: They will argue...
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is called hope against hope. That is foolishness. Therefore we say because you are expecting like that, therefore we understand that you are a fool. We can immediately understand, "Here is a grand fool." That is our study. Many fools have done like that, and you are one of them, you are also scientific (indistinct). Therefore our conclusion is "You are Fool No. 1."
Devotee: We may not be able to actually stop death, but while we're here we can at least prolong our lifetime and...
Prabhupada: That also you cannot do. Where is the proof?
Devotee: Well, at the atomic research plants...
Prabhupada: Oh, that is another foolishness, I say. You have not done it. You are simply expecting. Hope against hope. That's all.
Devotee: But they are making different cures for critical diseases that are causing deaths...
Prabhupada: That's all right. But that does not mean there will be no disease. That is already being done by many medical practitioners. Better medicine. But where is the medicine that will not be disease.
Tamala Krsna: Gradually we are eliminating one by one all the diseases.
Prabhupada: No, that you have not done. No disease... You have increased diseases. You have stopped one disease and increased another. Not stopped! But you have increased another disease.
Devotee: We have to learn though how to prevent all these diseases.
Prabhupada: Therefore you are fool. You have to learn. That means you have to learn, means you are fool.
Yasodanandana: But we are learning.
Prabhupada: Don't assert it, that you have done it already, you shall do it... As soon as you say we have to learn, that means you are fools. And while you are student, why you are claiming all these perfections? You have to learn. That you have to learn from us.
Brahmananda: Actually, when I was in Germany, there was evidence of how the scientists increased disease. They invented some vaccine to counteract influenza, and they injected all of Germany with this vaccine. But what happened is sometimes the body builds up resistance to these vaccines and produces another germ. So, as a result, another type of influenza was created, which was far more worse than the previous. It made people get fever for four and five days straight, 105 degrees.
Prabhupada: That is the way of... They have discovered this streptomycin, for tuberculosis, that if one takes too many injections of streptomycin, then it does not act.
Devotee: He becomes immune.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: So as a result of the vaccine they created a worse type of influenza, and they have nothing to counteract that worse type. So now they have to invent another type.
Prabhupada: These rascals give trouble to the people, especially in India. They are not after the vaccine. They will catch people and force them. Just see. This is going on. (indistinct) ...others are avoiding, they are going, going this way, that way. Sometimes they fall, they do not know, and capture (indistinct) These rascals are creating havoc. Only to kick them on their face with shoes. That's all. The so-called scientists and biologists and... They do not know anything.
Tamala Krsna: You were saying that all the scientists are fools and rascals but they may challenge, "How has your knowledge benefited you?"
Prabhupada: Your knowledge has not benefited you. Our taking your so-called science has benefited you because you are using it for Krsna. You have worked so hard, so result is going to Krsna. Hare Krsna. We are making the best... (indistinct) ...there is chair but we don't care for the chair. We can sit down. But if it is available we don't reject it. Therefore (indistinct) ...you have made a chair and (indistinct) ...Not that I require your chair, without your chair I will, shall die. That is not my policy. You rascal, you have done something, I'm using it for your benefit. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: They may argue that the knowledge which you say you have, it doesn't stop all of these things from happening to you. You're also suffering from symptoms of...
Prabhupada: Yes. But I'm trying because I have got this material body like you, so I have to suffer like you. But I'm making treatment. You are not making treatment.
Tamala Krsna: But the effects appear to be the same on everyone.
Prabhupada: No. We are not so much after doctors or medical...
Tamala Krsna: Your students also suffer from diseases and all...
Prabhupada: That's all right. So long the body's there, one has to suffer. That we tolerate. That is advised in the Bhagavad-gita,
matra sparsas tu kaunteya
sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah
agamapayino nityas
tams titiksasva bharata
[Bg. 2.14]
Titiksa, we know how to tolerate. We are not mad after curing. We know these things will happen so long I have got this body.
Tamala Krsna: So your difference is that you tolerate, whereas the scientists don't.
Prabhupada: Because we know that there is no cure. You do not know. You are trying to cure. That is the difference between you and me. We know so long I have got this body, I'll have to suffer. So we do not stop our business. We tolerate and do our business. That's all. But you have no business. You are simply trying, hope against hope. But it will never be fulfilled. Just like birds, bees, they do not know science. But so long they have got this body, they are also sometimes diseased. But they have no science, how they are cured? The same thing, just like this tree, they have no scissors, so how their leaves are being trimmed, falling down, (indistinct). We have discovered scissors, or clippers, but you have no clippers. How their hairs, or their leaves are being cut?
Devotee: Prabhupada, according to archeological findings primitive man, before, when they would get some disease they would just die. And now modern science has developed so nicely...
Prabhupada: That is there. And who is not dying now?
Devotee: Well, but...
Prabhupada: Well, well, well...
Devotee: ...they died at thirty, forty years old. Now we're dying at a hundred years old.
Prabhupada: So what is the difference? You die after forty years or hundred years? These trees dies after thousands years. Does it mean the trees are better than you? (Devotees laugh) If one dies after one thousand years, does it mean his life is successful?
Devotee: But all of us want to live longer.
Prabhupada: Why? Who is allowing to live long? If you trying to live longer, already trees are living longer than you. Then a tree is better than you? By living longer you want to take some credit, then trees should be given that credit. That is the point. Many big, big men, they lived for short time. Just like Sankaracarya lived for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahaprabhu lived for forty-eight years. They're still living! There are so many followers of Sankaracarya, so many followers of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Krsna, told that He lived for 125 years and Krsna is still living.
Yasodanandana: Jesus Christ only lived for 36 years.
Prabhupada: Who's caring for any tree who lives for five thousand years? If that is your point, to live long is a great credit, there are already so many living entities who live long, longer than you.
Devotee: Well they don't... they may be living a long time but they don't have the same intelligence how to use their life span...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) ...the dogs also got intelligence, the hogs also got intelligence. The intelligence which you are claiming, that is all discussed in Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is said yes they are living, but you don't see that breathing. So then the vastra, the bellow, it is breathing. "Waa, waa, waa, waa." It is breathing in the (indistinct) and it is (indistinct), the vastra. It is breathing (indistinct). Here they are living but you don't see they have any sex enjoyment (indistinct). The dogs and hogs, they are having very good sex enjoyment, even on the street, without any restriction, and begetting three dozen children in a year. And they give credit to whom?
Tamala Krsna: Apart from science, we have very nice philosophy and literature, studying art.
Prabhupada: That is real science. Science we admit, but your science is not. You are trying to go against the laws of nature.
Tamala Krsna: What about our art and literature which just shows that...
Prabhupada: No. That is different department so far science is concerned. But pure science is useless, simply useless.
Tamala Krsna: If we acknowledge that, suppose we acknowledge that, but we say that still our cultural advancements are very great. The students say that...
Prabhupada: That's a fact. That's a fact.
Tamala Krsna: They say "Why...?" Many people I meet in the university they're not involved with science very much. Their main dealings are with culture, literature, arts, philosophy, music. They say... He feels we have very wonderful, beautiful things to study so why should we take up studying what you have to offer. There's so much to study with what we're doing. Why should we join your movement? Why should we give up studying such beautiful music and art and literature?
Prabhupada: Because you'll like it. And there is beautiful sounds, you'll hear it. Even animals hear it.
Tamala Krsna: But you sing the same song all the time.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But do you hear it? As soon as you chant Hare Krsna mantra hundreds of persons, they'll have to hear it. Ask them not to hear it. You go, you scientists, (indistinct) ...don't hear it. They hear it. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: But your music is of one chanting is very limited. Chanting...
Prabhupada: First of all you finish this limited, then you go to unlimited. You have no experience of this limited, what to speak of the unlimited. Krsna has described you mudhas, and you have taken (indistinct) are mudhas. (indistinct) ...to have to take credit in so many way that our conclusion is following the footsteps of Krsna. You are all mudhas.
Tamala Krsna: Just like some people may express God by chanting Hare Krsna but we can also express God through our musical talent. [break]
Prabhupada: You decorate God so nicely (indistinct) ...art painting, everything. They, putting art, so many thing, (indistinct). There's no scarcity of art painting.
Tamala Krsna: We are trying to attain the Supreme through our own music. We are doing that through our own mus...
Prabhupada: No. That is... That is another nonsense. We are trying to please the Supreme by the Supreme music. Golokera prema-dhana hari-nama-sankirtana. These sounds are not (indistinct) These are Vaikuntha songs. Narada muni bajaya vina radhika-ramana name. It is words by Narada Muni. It is not manufactured here.
Tamala Krsna: Don't you think that the great musicians like Bach, they were inspired by God to make this music.
Prabhupada: But they (indistinct) do not believe in God. So that is another thing. But this music is like you are hearing music ten thousand miles away. Similarly, this music is being imported from Vaikuntha many millions and many millions of miles away. So this is not just music of this mundane sound. Otherwise why you are not tired repeating it for many, many days? Any mundane sound, we repeat it, you cannot prolong it. You cannot prolong it. But we are (indistinct) only Hare Krsna and you can chant this. And you also hear it. You (are) attracted.
Yasodanandana: You have said that variety is the mother of enjoyment. So we are enjoying many different songs.
Prabhupada: Unless there is variety how we are enjoying.
Yasodanandana: Yes. So therefore you only have one song. But we have many songs.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Who cares for you.
Yasodanandana: So many people.
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: But there are so many symphonies...
Prabhupada: That is our credit. We have got one song and we are attracting so many. You have got many songs but you attract yourself only. That...
Devotee: When there is a symphony orchestra, ten thousand, twenty thousand people have come to hear.
Prabhupada: But who takes it seriously?
Devotee: They all do.
Prabhupada: They stay here and go away. That's all... Temporary, temporary.
Devotee: But then they will also buy the record and listen at home.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but our song, we are chanting always, where is that song you have got? You have got (indistinct) ...he has to give new record. Nobody cares for the old record. (indistinct) ...then his business will stop. If you say that "I have given one song, that's all." (everybody laughs) Who'll care for it? That is our credit.
Devotee: But they will say only a select few are interested in that Hare Krsna song.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Not select few. They're increasing the number, many thousands. Cannot say select few. Select few was beginning (indistinct) ...I was chanting (indistinct). And now that it is not select few and it will increase. But the song is the same. That is our credit.
Tamala Krsna: Going back to science again...
Prabhupada: Going back... Where is science? Going back to hell again. Say "going back to hell again". Say like that. (chuckles) Because that is not science. That is our charge. You can say like that: "Going back again to hell."
Tamala Krsna: We wanted to talk to you about the moon. We have read your statement that you say that man has not gone to the moon, but we have seen...
Prabhupada: Not only now, I've said long, long years ago. That this is all childish.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. But how can you say this when we have so much proof that we have gone to the moon?
Prabhupada: But that proof is with you. I have not gone with you. I don't believe you because, according to you, unless you see, you don't believe. I have not seen so I don't believe.
Tamala Krsna: You have not seen the North Pole but you believe it.
Prabhupada: Ah ha. You materialistic people say that "We have not seen God, therefore don't believe." Therefore I say, "I have not gone with you, that you have gone to moon, I don't believe." That's all. Finished. How can I believe? You say that you have gone. But I have not gone with you. So how can I believe. That's all. That is my argument. You did not take me with you. How can I believe?
Tamala Krsna: Pictures.
Prabhupada: Why I shall believe pictures? I have not seen it. This is false picture. As you say that you could not saw God therefore don't believe. Therefore I say that I did not go with you, I don't believe.
Tamala Krsna: But we can arrange to put you on a ship to take you to the moon.
Prabhupada: When you take then I shall believe.
Devotee: Well, we can show some rocks. We can show some rocks that you won't find anywhere on this planet.
Prabhupada: No, that is refuted. The other scientists, they have said these rocks can be found here.
Tamala Krsna: One thing is that in your Vedas it says that the atom is the smallest particle but yet we have...
Prabhupada: No, smaller than atom there is. Atom is called paramanu. Then it is anugra paramanu, (?) smaller than the atom.
Devotee: Does that mean the electrons?
Prabhupada: Whatever you say. But sastra is there. (devotees laugh) Be convinced of your footing, (chuckles) otherwise you'll be defeated.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, the other day we were talking about proving different assumptions through archeological findings.
Prabhupada: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is bogus.
Brahmananda: But it seems that big skeletons of all these big dinosaurs...
Prabhupada: That we have already information. We have got timingala. Just like big house. They can swallow up, what is called?
Devotee: Whale. Whale.
Prabhupada: Whale (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: No but these dinosaurs move on the land. They're not fish. And they're very big and we have information...
Prabhupada: So what is to you? You are also a created being. He's also created being. That's the (indistinct). You are not creator of the (indistinct)
Tamala Krsna: But you say that there was more intelligent life previously, whereas we see these dinosaurs were previously.
Prabhupada: But you do not see, you simply imagine.
Tamala Krsna: No. We have the skeletons.
Devotee: We have the bones, the bones of animals.
Prabhupada: But that's all right. There was a big animal, that's all. Just like you are a foolish animal, so there was a big animal. What is the difference? They are animals.
Tamala Krsna: But we have skeletons showing the men at that time also and their brains were very tiny.
Prabhupada: That you say. But I don't believe it. I have not seen.
Tamala Krsna: Well, they have skeletons in the museum.
Brahmananda: Very thick skulls and very small brains.
Tamala Krsna: Almost like a ape.
Prabhupada: That's all right. There was a big animal. So what is the difference? They are animals, big or small. You have seen a skeleton of pygmy man also. So where is that man now? You have seen pygmy man, you don't require archeological. So where is that man?
Tamala Krsna: No, they don't live any more. Now we are more intelligent. Previously there were pygmy men, very less intelligent, small, not nice looking. Now we have got more...
Prabhupada: According to our sastra you are going to be pygmy men. That is, there is proof, because you are not as strong as your forefathers. That's a fact. You are becoming dwarfer, dwarfer. According to our sastra you come to that pygmy, (indistinct) in due course of time. As it was before, so again the time is repeating, history repeating.
Tamala Krsna: Then that means our pygmy men were from a previous Kali-yuga?
Prabhupada: Yes. We say there was Kali-yuga. Four yugas are changing.
Tamala Krsna: Dinosaurs also?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: They're from Kali-yuga?
Prabhupada: Kali-yuga, any yuga. The things are going on by nature's way, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani... [Bg. 3.27]. They're going on.
Devotee: But if we have bones from so many yugas ago...
Prabhupada: That's all right. There are 8,400,000 species of life. You have seen some of them. That's all.
Devotee: But the question is that why are there not any findings from only 5,000 years ago at the time when Krsna was here and...
Prabhupada: Your knowledge has come to Darwin's theory for 200, not even 200 years.
Devotee: I was just talking to Karttikeya. They have found this city 4,000 years old, (4,500).
Devotee: Where's that?
Devotee: It's near Kuruksetra, I think.
Brahmananda: Yeah, there's one in West India.
Prabhupada: So many things are coming according to their research.
Tamala Krsna: What about the city of Dvaraka? We do not find it remaining anymore.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Might have (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: So we cannot believe what we don't see.
Hamsaduta: Actually the scientists don't accept this theory at all any more about the man...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hamsaduta: The more advanced scientists, the more up-to-date ones, they reject this whole Darwin thing. But it's become so ingraded in the minds of the people that they have published, this Life, Time Magazine, they publish millions of books and sell it. People read about ape man, the man came from the ape and so on. It's become such a popular, it's like a fairy tale.
Prabhupada: Propaganda, it is propaganda. That's all. Propaganda, you can do any false thing (indistinct) say. This is called, propaganda is called in Bengali dasa cakre bhagavan butha (?). Dasa cakre bhagavan butha. Bhagavan, one gentleman's name was Bhagavan and he spread, conspired that let us, make us some joke that she has become ghost. So wherever he was going, the friend: "Oh, oh, a ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost!" (everyone laughs) "No, no, I am not..." (indistinct) ...this man has become crazy, why he (indistinct) Then he goes another friend, then he also says like that, "Oh, here is a ghost, here is a ghost, here is a ghost!" (everyone laughs) Then third friend, everyone, because they have conspired. Then he began to think, "I must have become ghost." (laughter) So certainly I'm... (indistinct) all friends have calling me, "Ghost, ghost." That's dasa cakre bhagavan... If you make propaganda, if he's not ghost, you can make him ghost. This is propaganda. This is called propaganda. By propaganda you can establish a false thing as real. That's all. This is going on. They know how to do it. They're expert because they're cheaters. They know how to do it.
Tamala Krsna: Cheating business.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is going on. Even something which is just... How Syamasundara has become victim. This rascal has given him some stone, and it is very valuable and he's jumping. (indistinct) ...has taken ten lakhs of (indistinct). Pukka propaganda. (indistinct) ...he has taken victim. That's all. He's not in his sense, even now, that if he has given me real gem, why I am unable to sell it for the last three, four years? Such a foolish.
Devotee: He's saying that he has to create the market.
Prabhupada: Good things, does it require...? That is propaganda. You have got some false thing, you have to make propaganda to prove it, that it is real.
Devotee: That is the proof it is false.
Prabhupada: Yes. And this man has taken money for... And he cannot supply even maintenance for his wife and girl. You have seen Malati?
Devotee: Yes Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Not properly dressed. And this poor girl is not properly dressed. And he's thinking he'll (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: His head is in the clouds.
Hamsaduta: I think Bali Mardana became infected by Syamasundara. He saw that Syamasundara was going to be a millionaire so then he had to also become a millionaire. So he got Mrs. Toyota.
Prabhupada: He got a cheat wife. Eh? Mother said she cheated that "I am twenty-six years."
Tamala Krsna: So many things she cheated.
Prabhupada: Simply cheated.
Tamala Krsna: But he wanted to be cheated.
Prabhupada: Yes. Daughter (indistinct) and grand-daughter, all cheaters. Remember in the United Nation, (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: She cannot speak Japanese.
Prabhupada: Everything cheated.
Tamala Krsna: She even said that she had four stillborn children. And we went to the hospital and there was no record of her having even been admitted to the hospital. Bali Mardana, she told him to wait downstairs while she gave birth to the four children and then two hours later she came down, she said, "Now it is finished." And he took her and drove away.
Prabhupada: Mesmerized.
Brahmananda: And there was talk that you had said that those four stillborn children were incarnations of Visnu.
Prabhupada: Anyway, she was think that by cheating this man I am becoming successful. Then she, without any restriction, she began to cheat.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah.
Prabhupada: And because he was Maharaja so he became, she became Maharani.
Tamala Krsna: But still he's being fooled by her. Those birds I think are the ones from the cage. Because they're being fed they're all, agree to be...
Prabhupada: ...put in cage. (indistinct) free. They can go away, but no...
Tamala Krsna: Just like, the human beings are like that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yasodanandana: Do you think that... As the Kali-yuga progresses the people are getting smaller. Does this mean that Krsna and His associates were much taller in stature than we are now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yasodanandana: They were much bigger.
Prabhupada: You have seen that Radha-Damodara temple, Krsna footprint.
Devotee: That means Krsna must have been fifteen or twenty feet tall?
Prabhupada: (indistinct) But it is a fact formerly people were taller. We have seen. In our childhood we have seen, when European, they were very tall.
Devotee: They were taller and they lived longer.
Devotee (2): That story about King Mucukunda when he was sleeping in the cave and he came out of the cave and looked outside and he said, "Oh, it must be Kali-yuga." because the trees were smaller and...
Prabhupada: Do you (indistinct) ...the mango trees now? Some of the trees (indistinct), the lemon tree, stunted. In Japan they grow many trees.
Devotee: In Japan they cultivate trees to be like that, very small. They have little orange trees. Orange trees are this big, orange trees.
Prabhupada: They are also becoming oranges. Japanese enjoy.
Hamsaduta: The Japanese and Chinese are very, very small.
Prabhupada: Did it...? [break] ...special. There is a proverb, kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman kalki chele busi... (?) A brahmana, black... Brahmana's another name is sukla, white. So as soon as a brahmana is black then he's (indistinct) kalo brahmana. Kota sudra, and sudra, just like African, if they become white there is something mystery. Kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman, Mohammedan, because Mohammedan means the Afghans, they are very tall, so a Mussulman is dwarf, a brahmana is black, the sudra is white, kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman and kalki chelo, that means the bastard and (indistinct) ...these are all of the same class. Adopted son, he gets money, without any labor, he spends like anything. In your country there is adopted son?
Devotee: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupada: Here there are many adopted son. A rich man has no son. He adopts somebody, rascal, and he spends money like... There are so many instance. Squanders. He'll be satisfied after finishing... There are many instances. In our childhood, many you have heard, you have seen one, when the adopted son (indistinct) ...big property and he was not satisfied to squander all the money unless it became (indistinct) That I've seen. He had many cars and I saw him, he was drenched by water, rainfall, sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. When he was rich, big, big men would come to see him, even Burdwan Maharaja. Now I saw him that he was in Dharmatala, it was raining and he was sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. And he was satisfied at that time after finishing the whole money. Otherwise hundreds and two hundred friends, there was very big house, bring, I mean to say, received as guests daily. (indistinct) His name was Arendranath(?) Sil.
Tamala Krsna: That's a Hindu name?
Prabhupada: Yes. Bengali.
Tamala Krsna: Seak?
Prabhupada: Sil. Sil means cultured. A cultured man is called sil. Sushil. Sushil means very culture, very... Sushil. So kalo brahm... This is unnatural. Kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman, kanki chele... (indistinct) Now generally people, we saw, in our childhood, Europeans were very tall and now they are not coming (indistinct). Naturally when they'll not get sufficient nourishment, they'll be stunted. And Kali-yuga means decrease of nourishment, necessities of life decreasing. We see in such a rich man's house, there is no milk. Milk is one of the important nourishment foods. And there is no milk. So gradually there'll be no milk, no rice, no wheat, no sugar. These are stated. Where you'll get nourishment? And the mango, there'll be no pulp, only the seed. These are predicted. After all, you have to live by nature's gift, but these things will be finished. And Russia there is, already there is no rice. There is no fruit. There is no vegetable. Simply we eat meat.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore they cannot understand God.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not they. They understand, the people understand. But this, this rascal government. That I have studied. Russian people are not bad. They're as good as others. But this is... Just like in India, still the mass of people, they're very good. And too mu... Yesterday we saw, all rascals, all these politicians canvassing, all big, big fat rascals.
Devotee: We were noting that when they were giving their lectures at that opening of the train station they seemed very demonic.
Prabhupada: All demonic.
Brahmananda: Their faces were very shifty.
Devotee: So much anxiety and so much political dealings.
Prabhupada: All demon.
Tamala Krsna: All very fatty.
Prabhupada: They, they... the other's money.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. The peo... I didn't see one village man who was fatty, not one.
Prabhupada: Not one. They're extracting money from them, making them intoxicated and exploiting. This is the fault. Very precarious condition. [break] So if you can make one example [break] India, that spot, very good example, then we can capture the whole India. Simply, we have got enough land. Give them enough food. Make them stout and strong, both the animal and man. And chant Hare Krsna. Let them hear. Everything will be all right. Everything will be ideal.
Devotee: No one can object either.
Prabhupada: No. (chuckles)
Devotee: That's the beauty.
Prabhupada: Make the whole field green, [break] sumptuously, let the animals eat, let the man eat. They feel satisfaction and they [break] He knows some people, they are being exploited, animals are being exploited by these rogues, fat, big, big, fat rogues. Discovering some nonsense, scientific means and people are starving. There is no food. And they're busy in discovering scientific method.
Yasodanandana: Atomic bomb.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasodanandana: Atomic bomb for India. That is the greatest paradox.
Prabhupada: There was a picture... some deputation came to the minister that we are starving. There is no food. The administrator, he went, "Of course I have no information that you have no, but we're advanced now. Come tomorrow, there will be radio message. Radio message, radio, there's television, ha television..."
Yasodanandana: Television.
Prabhupada: Television, tomorrow, from tomorrow you'll have television.
Yasodanandana: Instead of food.
Prabhupada: Instead of food you'll get television. (laughing) Advanced. This is going on. "I am hungry, sir. What shall I do with television?" That is the real answer. Say "I'm hungry. What shall I do with the television?" But he's pacifying, "Don't worry, you'll get television." This is science.
Tamala Krsna: Cheaters.
Prabhupada: This is science. People, for want of sufficient nourishment, they are becoming dwarf and they are discovering scientific method.
Brahmananda: Intoxication... By increasing the intoxication the desire for food reduces. You eat less.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are very much dizzy. And little hunger satisfied with meat. That's all. That is going on in the western country. The drinking... I have seen in airplane, bottles after bottle, they are drinking.
Devotee: Every day.
Yasodanandana: Actually they have run a survey in America and they have found out that the greatest drug takers are housewives. The housewives, they are taking these weight-watching pills and they are addictive amphetamines. They are taking them and it gives them energy and they don't want to eat so much. So they are very skinny. They drink a little coffee and smoke cigarettes and take some pills and that is all during the day. Finished. And they remain very slim. And they think this is nice. So gradually they are replacing foodstuffs with pills.
Prabhupada: That is nature's way because there will be no food in the future. So nature is training them how to live without food.
Tamala Krsna: The whole civilization is becoming expert in killing and dying. That's all.
Prabhupada: You have got some agricultural experience?
Devotee: Not at all.
Prabhupada: Not at all. Anyway, that not very difficult.
Devotee: No. I can take advice from the experts. That man with the white beard there, he's supposed to know very much. He's supposed to be very expert, and he speaks English. He's supposed to have agricultural experience.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasodanandana: Jayapataka had no agricultural experience.
Prabhupada: Any city boy (indistinct) (end)
Prabhupada: Why not? That is your rascaldom. You cannot produce it. Why do you say like that? You rascal, you produce by biochemical combination. That is your rascaldom. That is not science. You are talking like a child. That's all. Credit must be given to God. He's already doing it very systematically. Why shall I... I am not such a fool that I have to give credit to you.
Yasodanandana: No, that is not the question, to give credit to me. But just because you can't...
Prabhupada: Anyone who is producing, either or God or somebody, or somebody is doing that. I must see, (indistinct) ...not to you. You may not accept God, but somebody is doing that. As you are trying to do it, similarly, somebody else is already there. Therefore he should get the credit. Why you are claiming to get the credit? That is not right. Anybody... Just like you are somebody, you are trying to take all the credit. So similarly, somebody is already doing. So he should get the credit.
Yasodanandana: Their objection is to "he."
Prabhupada: But why you are "he"?
Yasodanandana: Oh, I'm simply attempting.
Prabhupada: Attempting... You are "he"? You are person. You are attempting. You are foolish, you are attempting. But there is another person who has already done it. As you are a person, you are trying to do it, it is being already done by another person.
Yasodanandana: Maybe because I am person...
Prabhupada: That is not maybe. Maybe... As soon as you say "maybe" then you'll be slapped. No knowledge. It is not a question of "maybe." It must be factual. Is that all right?
Yasodanandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Attack these rascals strongly in big, big meetings, and slap them, "Why you are cheating and spending our hard-earned money, taxes?" Better follow us. We are giving all credit to the person who has already..., going on with the big man. Very systematically it is going on. For ourself, we are human being. When there are long hairs, we cut. That person's (indistinct) is so nice... nobody's going to cut the (indistinct) ...of the street. But annually, they are already being changed. The whole (indistinct), thrown away. Who's doing that? You must get credit. It is very nice here in the springtime.
Brahmananda: They have never seen God. They can see chemicals, but they cannot...
Prabhupada: You are trying. How you can see? You rascal, you are blind. You, how can you see? You have to treat your eyes, then you will see. We are seeing. We are not blind like you. You are blind. You require treatment. You come to the treatment. You cannot see.
Yasodanandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupada: Ha?
Yasodanandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupada: Then how he claims to..., claims others' faith upon him? He's more than a doctor? Doctor is also as good as scientist as you are. If you do not have faith in the doctor why do you claim people should have faith in you? Where is the proof that you'll be able? Why you are asking us blindly to follow you? What is your answer?
Nitai: Sometimes they say that if we can control, if we can produce...
Prabhupada: But I'm protesting that you cannot control. You are rascal. You are thinking like that. That is our charge against you, that you cannot control. In the history there is not a single instance that man has controlled nature. But nature has controlled man. That is the history. Where is the proof that you shall control? You are controlled. Nature is forcing you to become an old man. You are becoming. You control like that, that you remain a young man. Nature is controlling you to die. You control nature that death will not be forced upon me. So where is the history that man has controlled nature?
Nitai: They say that now we are controlling atomic energy and now we are controlling...
Prabhupada: What is that atomic energy? What is the use of it? We'll die. Without atomic energy you'll die. What is that control? Death is already there, and you're utilizing atomic energy for death, that's all. So what is your credit? You use atomic energy that you'll not die. Then it is control. Death is already there. You might have atomic energy or no atomic energy -- you have to die. By atomic energy you are accelerating the same problem of death, that's all.
Tamala Krsna: Gradually we are learning how to become deathless.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasodanandana: They will argue...
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is called hope against hope. That is foolishness. Therefore we say because you are expecting like that, therefore we understand that you are a fool. We can immediately understand, "Here is a grand fool." That is our study. Many fools have done like that, and you are one of them, you are also scientific (indistinct). Therefore our conclusion is "You are Fool No. 1."
Devotee: We may not be able to actually stop death, but while we're here we can at least prolong our lifetime and...
Prabhupada: That also you cannot do. Where is the proof?
Devotee: Well, at the atomic research plants...
Prabhupada: Oh, that is another foolishness, I say. You have not done it. You are simply expecting. Hope against hope. That's all.
Devotee: But they are making different cures for critical diseases that are causing deaths...
Prabhupada: That's all right. But that does not mean there will be no disease. That is already being done by many medical practitioners. Better medicine. But where is the medicine that will not be disease.
Tamala Krsna: Gradually we are eliminating one by one all the diseases.
Prabhupada: No, that you have not done. No disease... You have increased diseases. You have stopped one disease and increased another. Not stopped! But you have increased another disease.
Devotee: We have to learn though how to prevent all these diseases.
Prabhupada: Therefore you are fool. You have to learn. That means you have to learn, means you are fool.
Yasodanandana: But we are learning.
Prabhupada: Don't assert it, that you have done it already, you shall do it... As soon as you say we have to learn, that means you are fools. And while you are student, why you are claiming all these perfections? You have to learn. That you have to learn from us.
Brahmananda: Actually, when I was in Germany, there was evidence of how the scientists increased disease. They invented some vaccine to counteract influenza, and they injected all of Germany with this vaccine. But what happened is sometimes the body builds up resistance to these vaccines and produces another germ. So, as a result, another type of influenza was created, which was far more worse than the previous. It made people get fever for four and five days straight, 105 degrees.
Prabhupada: That is the way of... They have discovered this streptomycin, for tuberculosis, that if one takes too many injections of streptomycin, then it does not act.
Devotee: He becomes immune.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: So as a result of the vaccine they created a worse type of influenza, and they have nothing to counteract that worse type. So now they have to invent another type.
Prabhupada: These rascals give trouble to the people, especially in India. They are not after the vaccine. They will catch people and force them. Just see. This is going on. (indistinct) ...others are avoiding, they are going, going this way, that way. Sometimes they fall, they do not know, and capture (indistinct) These rascals are creating havoc. Only to kick them on their face with shoes. That's all. The so-called scientists and biologists and... They do not know anything.
Tamala Krsna: You were saying that all the scientists are fools and rascals but they may challenge, "How has your knowledge benefited you?"
Prabhupada: Your knowledge has not benefited you. Our taking your so-called science has benefited you because you are using it for Krsna. You have worked so hard, so result is going to Krsna. Hare Krsna. We are making the best... (indistinct) ...there is chair but we don't care for the chair. We can sit down. But if it is available we don't reject it. Therefore (indistinct) ...you have made a chair and (indistinct) ...Not that I require your chair, without your chair I will, shall die. That is not my policy. You rascal, you have done something, I'm using it for your benefit. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: They may argue that the knowledge which you say you have, it doesn't stop all of these things from happening to you. You're also suffering from symptoms of...
Prabhupada: Yes. But I'm trying because I have got this material body like you, so I have to suffer like you. But I'm making treatment. You are not making treatment.
Tamala Krsna: But the effects appear to be the same on everyone.
Prabhupada: No. We are not so much after doctors or medical...
Tamala Krsna: Your students also suffer from diseases and all...
Prabhupada: That's all right. So long the body's there, one has to suffer. That we tolerate. That is advised in the Bhagavad-gita,
matra sparsas tu kaunteya
sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah
agamapayino nityas
tams titiksasva bharata
[Bg. 2.14]
Titiksa, we know how to tolerate. We are not mad after curing. We know these things will happen so long I have got this body.
Tamala Krsna: So your difference is that you tolerate, whereas the scientists don't.
Prabhupada: Because we know that there is no cure. You do not know. You are trying to cure. That is the difference between you and me. We know so long I have got this body, I'll have to suffer. So we do not stop our business. We tolerate and do our business. That's all. But you have no business. You are simply trying, hope against hope. But it will never be fulfilled. Just like birds, bees, they do not know science. But so long they have got this body, they are also sometimes diseased. But they have no science, how they are cured? The same thing, just like this tree, they have no scissors, so how their leaves are being trimmed, falling down, (indistinct). We have discovered scissors, or clippers, but you have no clippers. How their hairs, or their leaves are being cut?
Devotee: Prabhupada, according to archeological findings primitive man, before, when they would get some disease they would just die. And now modern science has developed so nicely...
Prabhupada: That is there. And who is not dying now?
Devotee: Well, but...
Prabhupada: Well, well, well...
Devotee: ...they died at thirty, forty years old. Now we're dying at a hundred years old.
Prabhupada: So what is the difference? You die after forty years or hundred years? These trees dies after thousands years. Does it mean the trees are better than you? (Devotees laugh) If one dies after one thousand years, does it mean his life is successful?
Devotee: But all of us want to live longer.
Prabhupada: Why? Who is allowing to live long? If you trying to live longer, already trees are living longer than you. Then a tree is better than you? By living longer you want to take some credit, then trees should be given that credit. That is the point. Many big, big men, they lived for short time. Just like Sankaracarya lived for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahaprabhu lived for forty-eight years. They're still living! There are so many followers of Sankaracarya, so many followers of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Krsna, told that He lived for 125 years and Krsna is still living.
Yasodanandana: Jesus Christ only lived for 36 years.
Prabhupada: Who's caring for any tree who lives for five thousand years? If that is your point, to live long is a great credit, there are already so many living entities who live long, longer than you.
Devotee: Well they don't... they may be living a long time but they don't have the same intelligence how to use their life span...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) ...the dogs also got intelligence, the hogs also got intelligence. The intelligence which you are claiming, that is all discussed in Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is said yes they are living, but you don't see that breathing. So then the vastra, the bellow, it is breathing. "Waa, waa, waa, waa." It is breathing in the (indistinct) and it is (indistinct), the vastra. It is breathing (indistinct). Here they are living but you don't see they have any sex enjoyment (indistinct). The dogs and hogs, they are having very good sex enjoyment, even on the street, without any restriction, and begetting three dozen children in a year. And they give credit to whom?
Tamala Krsna: Apart from science, we have very nice philosophy and literature, studying art.
Prabhupada: That is real science. Science we admit, but your science is not. You are trying to go against the laws of nature.
Tamala Krsna: What about our art and literature which just shows that...
Prabhupada: No. That is different department so far science is concerned. But pure science is useless, simply useless.
Tamala Krsna: If we acknowledge that, suppose we acknowledge that, but we say that still our cultural advancements are very great. The students say that...
Prabhupada: That's a fact. That's a fact.
Tamala Krsna: They say "Why...?" Many people I meet in the university they're not involved with science very much. Their main dealings are with culture, literature, arts, philosophy, music. They say... He feels we have very wonderful, beautiful things to study so why should we take up studying what you have to offer. There's so much to study with what we're doing. Why should we join your movement? Why should we give up studying such beautiful music and art and literature?
Prabhupada: Because you'll like it. And there is beautiful sounds, you'll hear it. Even animals hear it.
Tamala Krsna: But you sing the same song all the time.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But do you hear it? As soon as you chant Hare Krsna mantra hundreds of persons, they'll have to hear it. Ask them not to hear it. You go, you scientists, (indistinct) ...don't hear it. They hear it. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: But your music is of one chanting is very limited. Chanting...
Prabhupada: First of all you finish this limited, then you go to unlimited. You have no experience of this limited, what to speak of the unlimited. Krsna has described you mudhas, and you have taken (indistinct) are mudhas. (indistinct) ...to have to take credit in so many way that our conclusion is following the footsteps of Krsna. You are all mudhas.
Tamala Krsna: Just like some people may express God by chanting Hare Krsna but we can also express God through our musical talent. [break]
Prabhupada: You decorate God so nicely (indistinct) ...art painting, everything. They, putting art, so many thing, (indistinct). There's no scarcity of art painting.
Tamala Krsna: We are trying to attain the Supreme through our own music. We are doing that through our own mus...
Prabhupada: No. That is... That is another nonsense. We are trying to please the Supreme by the Supreme music. Golokera prema-dhana hari-nama-sankirtana. These sounds are not (indistinct) These are Vaikuntha songs. Narada muni bajaya vina radhika-ramana name. It is words by Narada Muni. It is not manufactured here.
Tamala Krsna: Don't you think that the great musicians like Bach, they were inspired by God to make this music.
Prabhupada: But they (indistinct) do not believe in God. So that is another thing. But this music is like you are hearing music ten thousand miles away. Similarly, this music is being imported from Vaikuntha many millions and many millions of miles away. So this is not just music of this mundane sound. Otherwise why you are not tired repeating it for many, many days? Any mundane sound, we repeat it, you cannot prolong it. You cannot prolong it. But we are (indistinct) only Hare Krsna and you can chant this. And you also hear it. You (are) attracted.
Yasodanandana: You have said that variety is the mother of enjoyment. So we are enjoying many different songs.
Prabhupada: Unless there is variety how we are enjoying.
Yasodanandana: Yes. So therefore you only have one song. But we have many songs.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Who cares for you.
Yasodanandana: So many people.
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: But there are so many symphonies...
Prabhupada: That is our credit. We have got one song and we are attracting so many. You have got many songs but you attract yourself only. That...
Devotee: When there is a symphony orchestra, ten thousand, twenty thousand people have come to hear.
Prabhupada: But who takes it seriously?
Devotee: They all do.
Prabhupada: They stay here and go away. That's all... Temporary, temporary.
Devotee: But then they will also buy the record and listen at home.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but our song, we are chanting always, where is that song you have got? You have got (indistinct) ...he has to give new record. Nobody cares for the old record. (indistinct) ...then his business will stop. If you say that "I have given one song, that's all." (everybody laughs) Who'll care for it? That is our credit.
Devotee: But they will say only a select few are interested in that Hare Krsna song.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Not select few. They're increasing the number, many thousands. Cannot say select few. Select few was beginning (indistinct) ...I was chanting (indistinct). And now that it is not select few and it will increase. But the song is the same. That is our credit.
Tamala Krsna: Going back to science again...
Prabhupada: Going back... Where is science? Going back to hell again. Say "going back to hell again". Say like that. (chuckles) Because that is not science. That is our charge. You can say like that: "Going back again to hell."
Tamala Krsna: We wanted to talk to you about the moon. We have read your statement that you say that man has not gone to the moon, but we have seen...
Prabhupada: Not only now, I've said long, long years ago. That this is all childish.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. But how can you say this when we have so much proof that we have gone to the moon?
Prabhupada: But that proof is with you. I have not gone with you. I don't believe you because, according to you, unless you see, you don't believe. I have not seen so I don't believe.
Tamala Krsna: You have not seen the North Pole but you believe it.
Prabhupada: Ah ha. You materialistic people say that "We have not seen God, therefore don't believe." Therefore I say, "I have not gone with you, that you have gone to moon, I don't believe." That's all. Finished. How can I believe? You say that you have gone. But I have not gone with you. So how can I believe. That's all. That is my argument. You did not take me with you. How can I believe?
Tamala Krsna: Pictures.
Prabhupada: Why I shall believe pictures? I have not seen it. This is false picture. As you say that you could not saw God therefore don't believe. Therefore I say that I did not go with you, I don't believe.
Tamala Krsna: But we can arrange to put you on a ship to take you to the moon.
Prabhupada: When you take then I shall believe.
Devotee: Well, we can show some rocks. We can show some rocks that you won't find anywhere on this planet.
Prabhupada: No, that is refuted. The other scientists, they have said these rocks can be found here.
Tamala Krsna: One thing is that in your Vedas it says that the atom is the smallest particle but yet we have...
Prabhupada: No, smaller than atom there is. Atom is called paramanu. Then it is anugra paramanu, (?) smaller than the atom.
Devotee: Does that mean the electrons?
Prabhupada: Whatever you say. But sastra is there. (devotees laugh) Be convinced of your footing, (chuckles) otherwise you'll be defeated.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, the other day we were talking about proving different assumptions through archeological findings.
Prabhupada: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is bogus.
Brahmananda: But it seems that big skeletons of all these big dinosaurs...
Prabhupada: That we have already information. We have got timingala. Just like big house. They can swallow up, what is called?
Devotee: Whale. Whale.
Prabhupada: Whale (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: No but these dinosaurs move on the land. They're not fish. And they're very big and we have information...
Prabhupada: So what is to you? You are also a created being. He's also created being. That's the (indistinct). You are not creator of the (indistinct)
Tamala Krsna: But you say that there was more intelligent life previously, whereas we see these dinosaurs were previously.
Prabhupada: But you do not see, you simply imagine.
Tamala Krsna: No. We have the skeletons.
Devotee: We have the bones, the bones of animals.
Prabhupada: But that's all right. There was a big animal, that's all. Just like you are a foolish animal, so there was a big animal. What is the difference? They are animals.
Tamala Krsna: But we have skeletons showing the men at that time also and their brains were very tiny.
Prabhupada: That you say. But I don't believe it. I have not seen.
Tamala Krsna: Well, they have skeletons in the museum.
Brahmananda: Very thick skulls and very small brains.
Tamala Krsna: Almost like a ape.
Prabhupada: That's all right. There was a big animal. So what is the difference? They are animals, big or small. You have seen a skeleton of pygmy man also. So where is that man now? You have seen pygmy man, you don't require archeological. So where is that man?
Tamala Krsna: No, they don't live any more. Now we are more intelligent. Previously there were pygmy men, very less intelligent, small, not nice looking. Now we have got more...
Prabhupada: According to our sastra you are going to be pygmy men. That is, there is proof, because you are not as strong as your forefathers. That's a fact. You are becoming dwarfer, dwarfer. According to our sastra you come to that pygmy, (indistinct) in due course of time. As it was before, so again the time is repeating, history repeating.
Tamala Krsna: Then that means our pygmy men were from a previous Kali-yuga?
Prabhupada: Yes. We say there was Kali-yuga. Four yugas are changing.
Tamala Krsna: Dinosaurs also?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: They're from Kali-yuga?
Prabhupada: Kali-yuga, any yuga. The things are going on by nature's way, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani... [Bg. 3.27]. They're going on.
Devotee: But if we have bones from so many yugas ago...
Prabhupada: That's all right. There are 8,400,000 species of life. You have seen some of them. That's all.
Devotee: But the question is that why are there not any findings from only 5,000 years ago at the time when Krsna was here and...
Prabhupada: Your knowledge has come to Darwin's theory for 200, not even 200 years.
Devotee: I was just talking to Karttikeya. They have found this city 4,000 years old, (4,500).
Devotee: Where's that?
Devotee: It's near Kuruksetra, I think.
Brahmananda: Yeah, there's one in West India.
Prabhupada: So many things are coming according to their research.
Tamala Krsna: What about the city of Dvaraka? We do not find it remaining anymore.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Might have (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: So we cannot believe what we don't see.
Hamsaduta: Actually the scientists don't accept this theory at all any more about the man...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hamsaduta: The more advanced scientists, the more up-to-date ones, they reject this whole Darwin thing. But it's become so ingraded in the minds of the people that they have published, this Life, Time Magazine, they publish millions of books and sell it. People read about ape man, the man came from the ape and so on. It's become such a popular, it's like a fairy tale.
Prabhupada: Propaganda, it is propaganda. That's all. Propaganda, you can do any false thing (indistinct) say. This is called, propaganda is called in Bengali dasa cakre bhagavan butha (?). Dasa cakre bhagavan butha. Bhagavan, one gentleman's name was Bhagavan and he spread, conspired that let us, make us some joke that she has become ghost. So wherever he was going, the friend: "Oh, oh, a ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost!" (everyone laughs) "No, no, I am not..." (indistinct) ...this man has become crazy, why he (indistinct) Then he goes another friend, then he also says like that, "Oh, here is a ghost, here is a ghost, here is a ghost!" (everyone laughs) Then third friend, everyone, because they have conspired. Then he began to think, "I must have become ghost." (laughter) So certainly I'm... (indistinct) all friends have calling me, "Ghost, ghost." That's dasa cakre bhagavan... If you make propaganda, if he's not ghost, you can make him ghost. This is propaganda. This is called propaganda. By propaganda you can establish a false thing as real. That's all. This is going on. They know how to do it. They're expert because they're cheaters. They know how to do it.
Tamala Krsna: Cheating business.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is going on. Even something which is just... How Syamasundara has become victim. This rascal has given him some stone, and it is very valuable and he's jumping. (indistinct) ...has taken ten lakhs of (indistinct). Pukka propaganda. (indistinct) ...he has taken victim. That's all. He's not in his sense, even now, that if he has given me real gem, why I am unable to sell it for the last three, four years? Such a foolish.
Devotee: He's saying that he has to create the market.
Prabhupada: Good things, does it require...? That is propaganda. You have got some false thing, you have to make propaganda to prove it, that it is real.
Devotee: That is the proof it is false.
Prabhupada: Yes. And this man has taken money for... And he cannot supply even maintenance for his wife and girl. You have seen Malati?
Devotee: Yes Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Not properly dressed. And this poor girl is not properly dressed. And he's thinking he'll (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: His head is in the clouds.
Hamsaduta: I think Bali Mardana became infected by Syamasundara. He saw that Syamasundara was going to be a millionaire so then he had to also become a millionaire. So he got Mrs. Toyota.
Prabhupada: He got a cheat wife. Eh? Mother said she cheated that "I am twenty-six years."
Tamala Krsna: So many things she cheated.
Prabhupada: Simply cheated.
Tamala Krsna: But he wanted to be cheated.
Prabhupada: Yes. Daughter (indistinct) and grand-daughter, all cheaters. Remember in the United Nation, (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: She cannot speak Japanese.
Prabhupada: Everything cheated.
Tamala Krsna: She even said that she had four stillborn children. And we went to the hospital and there was no record of her having even been admitted to the hospital. Bali Mardana, she told him to wait downstairs while she gave birth to the four children and then two hours later she came down, she said, "Now it is finished." And he took her and drove away.
Prabhupada: Mesmerized.
Brahmananda: And there was talk that you had said that those four stillborn children were incarnations of Visnu.
Prabhupada: Anyway, she was think that by cheating this man I am becoming successful. Then she, without any restriction, she began to cheat.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah.
Prabhupada: And because he was Maharaja so he became, she became Maharani.
Tamala Krsna: But still he's being fooled by her. Those birds I think are the ones from the cage. Because they're being fed they're all, agree to be...
Prabhupada: ...put in cage. (indistinct) free. They can go away, but no...
Tamala Krsna: Just like, the human beings are like that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yasodanandana: Do you think that... As the Kali-yuga progresses the people are getting smaller. Does this mean that Krsna and His associates were much taller in stature than we are now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yasodanandana: They were much bigger.
Prabhupada: You have seen that Radha-Damodara temple, Krsna footprint.
Devotee: That means Krsna must have been fifteen or twenty feet tall?
Prabhupada: (indistinct) But it is a fact formerly people were taller. We have seen. In our childhood we have seen, when European, they were very tall.
Devotee: They were taller and they lived longer.
Devotee (2): That story about King Mucukunda when he was sleeping in the cave and he came out of the cave and looked outside and he said, "Oh, it must be Kali-yuga." because the trees were smaller and...
Prabhupada: Do you (indistinct) ...the mango trees now? Some of the trees (indistinct), the lemon tree, stunted. In Japan they grow many trees.
Devotee: In Japan they cultivate trees to be like that, very small. They have little orange trees. Orange trees are this big, orange trees.
Prabhupada: They are also becoming oranges. Japanese enjoy.
Hamsaduta: The Japanese and Chinese are very, very small.
Prabhupada: Did it...? [break] ...special. There is a proverb, kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman kalki chele busi... (?) A brahmana, black... Brahmana's another name is sukla, white. So as soon as a brahmana is black then he's (indistinct) kalo brahmana. Kota sudra, and sudra, just like African, if they become white there is something mystery. Kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman, Mohammedan, because Mohammedan means the Afghans, they are very tall, so a Mussulman is dwarf, a brahmana is black, the sudra is white, kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman and kalki chelo, that means the bastard and (indistinct) ...these are all of the same class. Adopted son, he gets money, without any labor, he spends like anything. In your country there is adopted son?
Devotee: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupada: Here there are many adopted son. A rich man has no son. He adopts somebody, rascal, and he spends money like... There are so many instance. Squanders. He'll be satisfied after finishing... There are many instances. In our childhood, many you have heard, you have seen one, when the adopted son (indistinct) ...big property and he was not satisfied to squander all the money unless it became (indistinct) That I've seen. He had many cars and I saw him, he was drenched by water, rainfall, sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. When he was rich, big, big men would come to see him, even Burdwan Maharaja. Now I saw him that he was in Dharmatala, it was raining and he was sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. And he was satisfied at that time after finishing the whole money. Otherwise hundreds and two hundred friends, there was very big house, bring, I mean to say, received as guests daily. (indistinct) His name was Arendranath(?) Sil.
Tamala Krsna: That's a Hindu name?
Prabhupada: Yes. Bengali.
Tamala Krsna: Seak?
Prabhupada: Sil. Sil means cultured. A cultured man is called sil. Sushil. Sushil means very culture, very... Sushil. So kalo brahm... This is unnatural. Kalo brahmana kota sudra bete mussulman, kanki chele... (indistinct) Now generally people, we saw, in our childhood, Europeans were very tall and now they are not coming (indistinct). Naturally when they'll not get sufficient nourishment, they'll be stunted. And Kali-yuga means decrease of nourishment, necessities of life decreasing. We see in such a rich man's house, there is no milk. Milk is one of the important nourishment foods. And there is no milk. So gradually there'll be no milk, no rice, no wheat, no sugar. These are stated. Where you'll get nourishment? And the mango, there'll be no pulp, only the seed. These are predicted. After all, you have to live by nature's gift, but these things will be finished. And Russia there is, already there is no rice. There is no fruit. There is no vegetable. Simply we eat meat.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore they cannot understand God.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not they. They understand, the people understand. But this, this rascal government. That I have studied. Russian people are not bad. They're as good as others. But this is... Just like in India, still the mass of people, they're very good. And too mu... Yesterday we saw, all rascals, all these politicians canvassing, all big, big fat rascals.
Devotee: We were noting that when they were giving their lectures at that opening of the train station they seemed very demonic.
Prabhupada: All demonic.
Brahmananda: Their faces were very shifty.
Devotee: So much anxiety and so much political dealings.
Prabhupada: All demon.
Tamala Krsna: All very fatty.
Prabhupada: They, they... the other's money.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. The peo... I didn't see one village man who was fatty, not one.
Prabhupada: Not one. They're extracting money from them, making them intoxicated and exploiting. This is the fault. Very precarious condition. [break] So if you can make one example [break] India, that spot, very good example, then we can capture the whole India. Simply, we have got enough land. Give them enough food. Make them stout and strong, both the animal and man. And chant Hare Krsna. Let them hear. Everything will be all right. Everything will be ideal.
Devotee: No one can object either.
Prabhupada: No. (chuckles)
Devotee: That's the beauty.
Prabhupada: Make the whole field green, [break] sumptuously, let the animals eat, let the man eat. They feel satisfaction and they [break] He knows some people, they are being exploited, animals are being exploited by these rogues, fat, big, big, fat rogues. Discovering some nonsense, scientific means and people are starving. There is no food. And they're busy in discovering scientific method.
Yasodanandana: Atomic bomb.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasodanandana: Atomic bomb for India. That is the greatest paradox.
Prabhupada: There was a picture... some deputation came to the minister that we are starving. There is no food. The administrator, he went, "Of course I have no information that you have no, but we're advanced now. Come tomorrow, there will be radio message. Radio message, radio, there's television, ha television..."
Yasodanandana: Television.
Prabhupada: Television, tomorrow, from tomorrow you'll have television.
Yasodanandana: Instead of food.
Prabhupada: Instead of food you'll get television. (laughing) Advanced. This is going on. "I am hungry, sir. What shall I do with television?" That is the real answer. Say "I'm hungry. What shall I do with the television?" But he's pacifying, "Don't worry, you'll get television." This is science.
Tamala Krsna: Cheaters.
Prabhupada: This is science. People, for want of sufficient nourishment, they are becoming dwarf and they are discovering scientific method.
Brahmananda: Intoxication... By increasing the intoxication the desire for food reduces. You eat less.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are very much dizzy. And little hunger satisfied with meat. That's all. That is going on in the western country. The drinking... I have seen in airplane, bottles after bottle, they are drinking.
Devotee: Every day.
Yasodanandana: Actually they have run a survey in America and they have found out that the greatest drug takers are housewives. The housewives, they are taking these weight-watching pills and they are addictive amphetamines. They are taking them and it gives them energy and they don't want to eat so much. So they are very skinny. They drink a little coffee and smoke cigarettes and take some pills and that is all during the day. Finished. And they remain very slim. And they think this is nice. So gradually they are replacing foodstuffs with pills.
Prabhupada: That is nature's way because there will be no food in the future. So nature is training them how to live without food.
Tamala Krsna: The whole civilization is becoming expert in killing and dying. That's all.
Prabhupada: You have got some agricultural experience?
Devotee: Not at all.
Prabhupada: Not at all. Anyway, that not very difficult.
Devotee: No. I can take advice from the experts. That man with the white beard there, he's supposed to know very much. He's supposed to be very expert, and he speaks English. He's supposed to have agricultural experience.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasodanandana: Jayapataka had no agricultural experience.
Prabhupada: Any city boy (indistinct) (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Conversation with Devotees -- April 14, 1975,
Hyderabad
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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