Hyderabad, April 20, 1974
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Prabhupada: ...meeting, our life
members are not coming?Mahamsa: Yes, it is (indistinct). Many life members
came, Prabhupada. There were many cars also. [break]
Prabhupada: No mangoes are hanging. [break] "Krsna is everything," is little difficult for everyone, eh? They want hodge-podge -- "Everything is all right." So has anybody offered some lump sum for the construction?
Mahamsa: Not as yet, Prabhupada. Actually they are all waiting for Mr. Piti(?) to make his pledge. They have some kind of... These Marwaris... [break]
Prabhupada: I did not see Hari Prasad.
Mahamsa: He was there.
Prabhupada: He was there?
Mahamsa: Oh, yes, his whole family was there. Mr. Pulla Reddy was there.
Prabhupada: Yes, Pulla Reddy, I have seen. [break] He is so much convinced in with our philosophy in Bombay, he is going to take sannyasa.
Mahamsa: Oh, in Hare Krsna Land?
Prabhupada: Yes. Although he is officially Shaivite, but he says that "I am so much convinced with your speech."
Pancadravida: Who is that person, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: I do not remember the name.
Nitai: He lives in that same building?
Prabhupada: Yes. Downstairs.
Nitai: Oh. He comes to every one of your lectures.
Mahamsa: I will just tell him that we do not need the car.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...between nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha.
Pancadravida: The nitya-mukta devotees, Prabhupada, they are always engaged in the service of the Lord, and every thought of theirs is engaged at the lotus feet of Krsna, of serving Him completely. And when they appear on this earth, persons like yourself, they only come here for the purpose of reclaiming the fallen conditioned souls. They have no reason to come to this material world for their own enjoyment. That is never on their mind. But the nitya-bandhas, they are here simply to try and manipulate this material nature so that they can engage their own senses in gratification either of themselves or their extended self like their family. So the difference between the two is one is serving Krsna, the other is simply serving his senses.
Prabhupada: Is that all right?
Satsvarupa: Eternally liberated and eternally conditioned.
Prabhupada: Eternally liberated, they never forget Krsna. There is no period throughout the existence... There is no question of existence. It is their all existence. Never touched by maya, forgetfulness. That is nitya-mukta. [break]
Pancadravida: Srila Prabhupada, you were talking that a person, he can come up to that position of nitya-mukta by either following the principles of sadhana-bhakti or causeless mercy, or you said there was also the question of krpa, the krpa-siddhi, that one can attain perfection...
Prabhupada: No, that is sadhana-bhakti.
Pancadravida: One gets mercy by sadhana-bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the stage of sadhana-bhakti... Sadhana-bhakti is for the conditioned soul. And siddha. Siddha means they are already mature. Siddha means nitya-siddha.
Pancadravida: [break] Also, Prabhupada you said that if one does not worship Panca-tattva, whatever actions he performs, even if he is so-called Krsna-bhakta, is to be considered offensive.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pancadravida: Does this mean other sampradayas also?
Prabhupada: Other sampradayas?
Pancadravida: For instance, Ramanuja sampradaya or also Madhva-sampradaya, they sometimes don't accept Panca-tattva as being supreme. So is their actions also considered offensive even if they are acting within sampradaya?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.
Mahamsa: [break] ...Ramanuja sampradaya, do they have a chain of disciplic succession, bona fide chain, to this present day?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mahamsa: And the other sampradayas also?
Prabhupada: Yes. Chain must be there. Now, whether strictly following the..., that is another thing.
Pancadravida: [break] ...invited us to their program at Udupi, Madhva-sampradaya. When they are changing the acaryas every two years, they extended one invitation to come for their program, main temple program.
Prabhupada: So why did you not accept?
Pancadravida: There was no transportation available.
Prabhupada: Transportation?
Mahamsa: Should we go to such programs, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: If they invite, why not? That means they recognize. But one thing, you be certain whether this Tirupati temple is going to allow our men.
Mahamsa: I will send somebody tomorrow in advance to make preparations.
Prabhupada: Where?
Mahamsa: To Tirupati. Actually Guru-krpa and Yasoda-nandana, they've had darsana of Lord Balaji.
Prabhupada: Oh. Then it is all right. They had no difficulty.
Mahamsa: Yes. And also Manibandha had once been, last time in the Hyderabad program was...
Prabhupada: Oh, then it is all right.
Pancadravida: They gave Guru-krpa and Yasoda-nandana special darsana. They took them into the circle where usually they'd only let special people...
Prabhupada: Oh, then it is all right. Then that's all right.
Mahamsa: [break] ...very impressed because we have nagara-kirtana all over the place.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mahamsa: And if they are impressed, they can, when our construction starts, they will be very willing to also give a very huge donation. They are capable of...
Prabhupada: How many people are going altogether?
Mahamsa: About fifteen devotees.
Prabhupada: That's nice. So we have to go by plane?
Mahamsa: No, we will go by bus.
Prabhupada: Oh. Bus is going every day?
Mahamsa: Yes, there is two very special buses. It costs forty-two rupees per ticket to go there.
Prabhupada: [break] ...wood is the strongest of all wood, this. (taps wood with cane or something) Very strong.
Pancadravida: What kind of wood is that?
Prabhupada: It is guava tree.
Mahamsa: Guava, oh.
Prabhupada: Yes. You know what is that lattu, we used to play? What is the English?
Mahamsa: Spinning?
Prabhupada: Like a small, and we used to...
Mahamsa: Oh, top, a top. Like that. It's top.
Prabhupada: Top. What is called, top?
Mahamsa: That is made of this, Prabhupada? Oh. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Very strong.
Pancadravida: [break] ...tops to gamble. That's part of the...
Prabhupada: Gambling religion. Now here also, they are advertising gambling, this government. Deteriorating, the whole world is deteriorating and suffering. Suffering is increasing. Still they are so rascal, they cannot understand that what is the advancement. They have become so less intelligent.
Pancadravida: Usually, though, it is the children. They gamble for cookies and candy and things like this.
Prabhupada: No, children they learn it from their parents. Otherwise they do not know. [break] ...by memory, by mercifulness... People are not so merciful now. Suppose in your presence somebody is being killed. You avoid to stand there. No more merciful. What to speak of the animals? If a man is killed, nobody will take care. I have heard it in America that if somebody is killed or attacked, nobody will go to help. Is it not?
Mahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So the mercifulness has gone. And what to speak of religiosity? That is completely gone. These things will reduce: mercifulness, religiosity, memory, bodily strength, and so many, eight, eight. They are mentioned in the Bhagavata. Religious principles.
Pancadravida: And you were writing that it is just a little bit of truthfulness is left.
Prabhupada: Yes. You secure dhatun from the tree. Ask them. The three dhatun they gave, that is finished. [break] ...water is full, one can take bath.
Mahamsa: Swimming.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break]
Pancadravida: ...that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the sastras of the (sic:) yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic sastras. They are not as... They are not bona fide like that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pancadravida: Does this mean they are not authentic or... How did they come here?
Prabhupada: Who?
Pancadravida: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what?
Prabhupada: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that's all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, "No, don't do this." "Thou shalt not covet," a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, "There is God, kingdom of God," little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, "Thou shalt not kill," is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God?
Pancadravida: These things, they are also in (sic:) Manu-samhita?
Prabhupada: That is for... Manu-samhita forbids completely. Manu-samhita is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Krsna. That is religion. That is natural. [break] "...shalt not kill," this is expectation. "Someday, in future, one may become religious." That's all. Because by killing, killing, they are going downer, down. So if they stop killing, some day they will be able to understand what is religion. Sukrti. Because, without being freed from all sinful activities, nobody can understand what is God. Therefore about God, in India they can understand very easily. In other countries they cannot. Very few because always engaged in sinful activities, all forbidden sinful activities. Just like you said that gambling has been introduced in religion. Killing has been introduced in religion. What is that religion? The more they take to the sinful activities, the more they become implicated -- again birth and birth and birth and birth. Unless one is completely free, he cannot understand what is God. Yesam anta-gatam papam. You know this verse? The Bhagavad-gita, yes.
Pancadravida: When one becomes free of sinful activities, then he can begin devotional life.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
[Bg. 7.28]
To stick to Krsna bhajana is not so easy, that you will go on committing all sinful activities and you will become Krsna devotee. That is not possible. You have to give up, and you have to come. But this is the process. You will be free, and you will understand. Guru-krsna krpaya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. If one follows bona fide guru's instruction and he is engaged in devotional service, then it is possible. Then it is possible. Otherwise, if he does whimsically then it will be a failure. He must carry out the instruction of the guru, bona fide guru. Guru means bona fide guru, not pseudo guru. And according... What guru will advise? To be engaged in Krsna's service. These two things will help him. Otherwise it is not possible. Guru-krsna-krpaya: "By the mercy of guru and by the mercy of Krsna." So both of them should be served. That is the process, not that "Now I have become advanced devotee. I don't require to serve guru." Neither, "Oh, I am serving my guru. I don't care for Krsna," no. Parallel line. Not that "One line I can walk," no. Parallel line. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Therefore in our temple, along with Deities, guru is also worshiped. Gurusu nara-matih, if one accepts guru -- "Guru is guru, guru is guru" -- as ordinary human being, then that is offense, naraki buddhi.
Mahamsa: That kind of worship is eternal.
Prabhupada: Yes. Janme janme pita sei. Cakhu-dan kilo jei, janme janme pita sei.
Pancadravida: Where is that sloka you were quoting last night from that ending gokala.
Prabhupada: Go-kharah, go-kharah. That is in Bhagavata. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma idya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. You give him that sloka, (indistinct). So actually at the present moment the whole world is full of go-kharah, that's all, animals. Everyone thinks in terms -- "I am this body," that's all. He is not human being, but every so-called civilized man is thinking like that. So where is the civilization of human being? All go-kharahs, animals. [break] ...because if you keep all these ingredients, life will come. Is it not?
Pancadravida: When the soul is entering, they are all complete?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. If you keep... A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are... If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there, and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, "Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency. Therefore the life is not coming." No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist? You prepare. "No, in future we shall see." And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go-kharah. They cannot prove; still they will insist, "Yes." And so far God is concerned, we learn from sastra that God's two energies are working like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see. How these mangoes have come unless there is some energy? So therefore the energy is working. Therefore God is there. Just like as soon as light is there, although we are in the room we can understand that sunlight is there. As soon as the darkness is there, we understand that there is no more sun. So in the presence of energy... Just like in the motor car, before starting, you round the key, and it becomes, "Gut, gut, gut, gut." Now your current is there. The energy is there. So there are symptoms. By symptoms we can understand there is God. Where is the difficulty? And Krsna is explaining, "Here, just see the symptom. The taste in the water I am." Then why do you say that you have not seen God? You are liar. You create that taste? Now take sea water and make that taste. Why do you take water from here and there? Sea water is there. Now you take it, and by chemical you create the taste. Why don't you? Therefore, unless God is there, you cannot do that, or God's sanction, you cannot do that. This is reasonable understanding of God, apart from seeing God. And because the taste is there -- Krsna says-therefore God is there. According to your capacity, you have to see God like that. You cannot see immediately Krsna, with dvi-bhuja murali, playing on flute. That you have no capacity. You have to see God like that. So when the rubber stamp is going to be delivered?
Devotee: I will bring it today.
Prabhupada: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varnasrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brahmana. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brahmana. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating sudras. What they will understand? Simply sudras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that sudra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Krsna, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13], they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brahmana class and above, post-graduate of brahmana class, Vaisnava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil . They will indulge in this meat-eating and drinking wine and illicit sex. Then it will be hell, and it has already become. Whole world is full of hellish person. In a civilized country like America you cannot walk alone in the street at night. India is still honest. Any part of India, you can walk. Because the more sinful. Is it not? In New York, especially in Brooklyn or anywhere, you cannot walk alone. Is it not? Yes. Your life is at risk. That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The negroes, they capture and rape. Life is unsafe even in a civilized city like New York. So what is this civilization? Our (name withheld) was... [break] ...Park. (Name withheld) our. Yes, she said.
Mahamsa: She said?
Prabhupada: No, no, she said. She was captured by a group of negroes to rape her. [break] That girl, what is his name? (name withheld) wife?
Satsvarupa: (Name withheld).
Prabhupada: She was raped.
Satsvarupa: Trinidad.
Prabhupada: Yes. She was raped.
Pancadravida: How do you teach a varnasrama college? In varnasrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be ksatriya" or "I want to be vaisya." Is it like that?
Prabhupada: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru.
Pancadravida: Who will teach him to be a ksatriya or who will teach him to be a vaisya?
Prabhupada: A ksatriya, a brahmana. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician.
Pancadravida: So where will we get ksatriyas and...?
Prabhupada: That is in the sastra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Ksatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is ksatriya.
Pancadravida: So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men...?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Because he knows how to teach. That's all.
Pancadravida: The brahmanas, they all become devotee... They would all be engaged in devotional life as...
Prabhupada: This is also devotion, to teach a ksatriya, because this is necessary in the society. This is also devotion.
Pancadravida: And vaisyas?
Prabhupada: Just like when Krsna is fighting. Krsna is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Krsna by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Krsna, and Krsna took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Krsna is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Krsna. Just like, the example is given by Visvanatha Cakravarti that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to... (chuckles) But if a rascal thinks that "Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always," then he is a rascal. (laughter) [break] ...lying down on the Yamuna beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, "No, there is no need of bedding of Krsna. He was lying down on the Yamuna beach, so He will lie down on the floor." So is... That conclusion is very nice?
Mahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: So we must know how to please Krsna. Generally, the sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23], that is pleasing. Therefore these rules and regulation for everyone. But when one becomes mature devotee, he knows how to please Krsna. He knows.
Nitai: One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman.
Prabhupada: Clergyman?
Nitai: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman.
Prabhupada: Where he was?
Nitai: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varnasrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...
Prabhupada: He is a sudra.
Nitai: Would we retrain him as a farmer?
Prabhupada: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that sudra also.
Nitai: He can remain in the factory.
Prabhupada: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brahmana. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, sudra is as important as the brahmana, provided he helps the movement, Krsna conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a sudra should be working as a brahmana, no. But everyone should be engaged in Krsna consciousness. That is required.
Nitai: So in that case he is a sudra, and he is also doing the work of a...
Prabhupada: Then he is not a sudra. One who is engaged in Krsna's service, he is neither brahmana nor sudra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Apparently he looks like sudra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaisnave jati-buddhih. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaisnava, here is an Indian Vaisnava," that is naraki. He is Vaisnava. That understanding required.
Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.
Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.
Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.
Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krsna, he is Vaisnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaisnava. He is above all these.
Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?
Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as ksatriya, like that.
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
mam ca vyabhicarini
bhakti-yogena yah sevate
[Bg. 14.26]
A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra's work nicely -- let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?
Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?
Prabhupada: Everything he will get.
Mahamsa: He gets.
Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: "Now he has become fully competent Vaisnava." Just like master is teaching the servant, "Now you give massage in this way, this way." But that does not mean he has become servant.
Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, "I can do so much. I can...,"
Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaisnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krsna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krsna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krsna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [SB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krsna. Jaya. That is wanted.
Pancadravida: What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day. He says, "I can't..."
Prabhupada: Then he is not even a human being. He is a rascal. That's all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking...? Don't talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal. [break]
Pancadravida: ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something.
Prabhupada: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing.
Nitai: One point that you made a few years ago in Vrndavana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don't have time to cultivate spiritual life.
Prabhupada: Well, if he likes, he can get time because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one... That is explained, apratihata. Krsna consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Krsna conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life, sthane sthitah, if he simply hears about Krsna then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Krsna, then it is difficult. Therefore sravanam. The first thing is that. The first qualification -- he must be eager to hear about Krsna. Then everything will come. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23]. [break]
Pancadravida: ...such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful, kirtana and everything, but we know they are not chanting japa. What can we do in that situation? Are we...
Prabhupada: Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service.
Pancadravida: Yes.
Prabhupada: So because on account of that service, if he could not, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business. The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it.
Pancadravida: Some persons we encounter they don't even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are...
Prabhupada: No, if you miss on account of busy-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not... Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this.
Satsvarupa: Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though.
Prabhupada: Then he is animal.
Satsvarupa: But still, he's doing lots of good devotional service.
Pancadravida: He may even be manager.
Prabhupada: Then they will get some chance later on. What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating, he is very eager, and for sleeping, he is very eager, and for finishing chanting, he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. [break] And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that "I am so busy."
Pancadravida: Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty-five rounds a day or more.
Prabhupada: That's all right. If you can chant more, that is good. [break]
Pancadravida: ...must associate with them, that is difficult.
Prabhupada: But you do your business. You don't follow them. That's all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that "Next day also, I am busy," then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way. You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion. "Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting" -- this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Krsna. Somebody, after initiation he promises, "Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds," before the fire, before the Deity, before the guru, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaisnava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises. Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating. Viddhi-bhakti must be followed; otherwise it becomes sahajiya. [break] ...Kerala?
Indian man (1): Yes.
Prabhupada: You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyatma?
Indian man (1): He was blaspheming our society. It was a (indistinct)
Prabhupada: I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that because there may be one... Because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals but you do not become rascal. He may be... [break] "...Who will read Hindi? You do not... Who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Maharaja..." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru read his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in families they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman -- he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to... And even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Not compulsory. So?
Indian man (1): Not Hindi, also they are developing local languages, they are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English medium schools.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (1): But these are also, they are definitely studying in local languages. Don't (indistinct) they are regulated. (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English.
Indian man (1): This is what I call cheating, to keep this.
Prabhupada: They are cheater.
Indian man (2): (Hindi) ...in English
Prabhupada: That is their local language.
Indian man (1): Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees don't...?"
Prabhupada: Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some sections they understand English. Everywhere.
Indian man (1): English is common language.
Prabhupada: Yes. We cannot avoid English.
Pancadravida: Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to a movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English.
Indian man (1): There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose.
Prabhupada: Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand.
Indian man (2): English in the West is the international language.
Prabhupada: They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi, fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange.
Indian man (2): He was blasting our society. That's why I let him be that.
Prabhupada: No, still, you should not say like that.
Indian Man (3): English, they speak. That's the language (indistinct) And all the people can read it. All the people can read it.
Prabhupada: We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making life members but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? I know one boy. He is about forty-two years. But he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any, prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhana(?) Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over. Now he is useless. He does not get any service. Although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English -- he does not get any responsible position.
Pancadravida: He does not want to learn?
Prabhupada: No. He was trying to learn but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious.
Indian man (1): If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will (indistinct) those others don't speak English anymore.
Prabhupada: No, local language is required.
Indian man (1): Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language.
Prabhupada: Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also, you should learn, but... We can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there.
Pancadravida: [break] ...them into all the schools.
Prabhupada: Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted.
Pancadravida: This is how it would work. This is Aksayananda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he shows them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad-gita and Krsna Books and Nectar of Devotion, like this.
Prabhupada: Best thing is that "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher. Indian religion, Indian philosophy, and Bhagavad-gita. Then... He has written so many books but not a single in Hindi."
Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India.
Prabhupada: Yes, he is from Madras.
Indian man (1): Yes, he doesn't know.
Prabhupada: No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyasa, sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swamiji, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end)
Prabhupada: No mangoes are hanging. [break] "Krsna is everything," is little difficult for everyone, eh? They want hodge-podge -- "Everything is all right." So has anybody offered some lump sum for the construction?
Mahamsa: Not as yet, Prabhupada. Actually they are all waiting for Mr. Piti(?) to make his pledge. They have some kind of... These Marwaris... [break]
Prabhupada: I did not see Hari Prasad.
Mahamsa: He was there.
Prabhupada: He was there?
Mahamsa: Oh, yes, his whole family was there. Mr. Pulla Reddy was there.
Prabhupada: Yes, Pulla Reddy, I have seen. [break] He is so much convinced in with our philosophy in Bombay, he is going to take sannyasa.
Mahamsa: Oh, in Hare Krsna Land?
Prabhupada: Yes. Although he is officially Shaivite, but he says that "I am so much convinced with your speech."
Pancadravida: Who is that person, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: I do not remember the name.
Nitai: He lives in that same building?
Prabhupada: Yes. Downstairs.
Nitai: Oh. He comes to every one of your lectures.
Mahamsa: I will just tell him that we do not need the car.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...between nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha.
Pancadravida: The nitya-mukta devotees, Prabhupada, they are always engaged in the service of the Lord, and every thought of theirs is engaged at the lotus feet of Krsna, of serving Him completely. And when they appear on this earth, persons like yourself, they only come here for the purpose of reclaiming the fallen conditioned souls. They have no reason to come to this material world for their own enjoyment. That is never on their mind. But the nitya-bandhas, they are here simply to try and manipulate this material nature so that they can engage their own senses in gratification either of themselves or their extended self like their family. So the difference between the two is one is serving Krsna, the other is simply serving his senses.
Prabhupada: Is that all right?
Satsvarupa: Eternally liberated and eternally conditioned.
Prabhupada: Eternally liberated, they never forget Krsna. There is no period throughout the existence... There is no question of existence. It is their all existence. Never touched by maya, forgetfulness. That is nitya-mukta. [break]
Pancadravida: Srila Prabhupada, you were talking that a person, he can come up to that position of nitya-mukta by either following the principles of sadhana-bhakti or causeless mercy, or you said there was also the question of krpa, the krpa-siddhi, that one can attain perfection...
Prabhupada: No, that is sadhana-bhakti.
Pancadravida: One gets mercy by sadhana-bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the stage of sadhana-bhakti... Sadhana-bhakti is for the conditioned soul. And siddha. Siddha means they are already mature. Siddha means nitya-siddha.
Pancadravida: [break] Also, Prabhupada you said that if one does not worship Panca-tattva, whatever actions he performs, even if he is so-called Krsna-bhakta, is to be considered offensive.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pancadravida: Does this mean other sampradayas also?
Prabhupada: Other sampradayas?
Pancadravida: For instance, Ramanuja sampradaya or also Madhva-sampradaya, they sometimes don't accept Panca-tattva as being supreme. So is their actions also considered offensive even if they are acting within sampradaya?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.
Mahamsa: [break] ...Ramanuja sampradaya, do they have a chain of disciplic succession, bona fide chain, to this present day?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mahamsa: And the other sampradayas also?
Prabhupada: Yes. Chain must be there. Now, whether strictly following the..., that is another thing.
Pancadravida: [break] ...invited us to their program at Udupi, Madhva-sampradaya. When they are changing the acaryas every two years, they extended one invitation to come for their program, main temple program.
Prabhupada: So why did you not accept?
Pancadravida: There was no transportation available.
Prabhupada: Transportation?
Mahamsa: Should we go to such programs, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: If they invite, why not? That means they recognize. But one thing, you be certain whether this Tirupati temple is going to allow our men.
Mahamsa: I will send somebody tomorrow in advance to make preparations.
Prabhupada: Where?
Mahamsa: To Tirupati. Actually Guru-krpa and Yasoda-nandana, they've had darsana of Lord Balaji.
Prabhupada: Oh. Then it is all right. They had no difficulty.
Mahamsa: Yes. And also Manibandha had once been, last time in the Hyderabad program was...
Prabhupada: Oh, then it is all right.
Pancadravida: They gave Guru-krpa and Yasoda-nandana special darsana. They took them into the circle where usually they'd only let special people...
Prabhupada: Oh, then it is all right. Then that's all right.
Mahamsa: [break] ...very impressed because we have nagara-kirtana all over the place.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mahamsa: And if they are impressed, they can, when our construction starts, they will be very willing to also give a very huge donation. They are capable of...
Prabhupada: How many people are going altogether?
Mahamsa: About fifteen devotees.
Prabhupada: That's nice. So we have to go by plane?
Mahamsa: No, we will go by bus.
Prabhupada: Oh. Bus is going every day?
Mahamsa: Yes, there is two very special buses. It costs forty-two rupees per ticket to go there.
Prabhupada: [break] ...wood is the strongest of all wood, this. (taps wood with cane or something) Very strong.
Pancadravida: What kind of wood is that?
Prabhupada: It is guava tree.
Mahamsa: Guava, oh.
Prabhupada: Yes. You know what is that lattu, we used to play? What is the English?
Mahamsa: Spinning?
Prabhupada: Like a small, and we used to...
Mahamsa: Oh, top, a top. Like that. It's top.
Prabhupada: Top. What is called, top?
Mahamsa: That is made of this, Prabhupada? Oh. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Very strong.
Pancadravida: [break] ...tops to gamble. That's part of the...
Prabhupada: Gambling religion. Now here also, they are advertising gambling, this government. Deteriorating, the whole world is deteriorating and suffering. Suffering is increasing. Still they are so rascal, they cannot understand that what is the advancement. They have become so less intelligent.
Pancadravida: Usually, though, it is the children. They gamble for cookies and candy and things like this.
Prabhupada: No, children they learn it from their parents. Otherwise they do not know. [break] ...by memory, by mercifulness... People are not so merciful now. Suppose in your presence somebody is being killed. You avoid to stand there. No more merciful. What to speak of the animals? If a man is killed, nobody will take care. I have heard it in America that if somebody is killed or attacked, nobody will go to help. Is it not?
Mahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So the mercifulness has gone. And what to speak of religiosity? That is completely gone. These things will reduce: mercifulness, religiosity, memory, bodily strength, and so many, eight, eight. They are mentioned in the Bhagavata. Religious principles.
Pancadravida: And you were writing that it is just a little bit of truthfulness is left.
Prabhupada: Yes. You secure dhatun from the tree. Ask them. The three dhatun they gave, that is finished. [break] ...water is full, one can take bath.
Mahamsa: Swimming.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break]
Pancadravida: ...that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the sastras of the (sic:) yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic sastras. They are not as... They are not bona fide like that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pancadravida: Does this mean they are not authentic or... How did they come here?
Prabhupada: Who?
Pancadravida: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what?
Prabhupada: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that's all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, "No, don't do this." "Thou shalt not covet," a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, "There is God, kingdom of God," little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, "Thou shalt not kill," is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God?
Pancadravida: These things, they are also in (sic:) Manu-samhita?
Prabhupada: That is for... Manu-samhita forbids completely. Manu-samhita is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Krsna. That is religion. That is natural. [break] "...shalt not kill," this is expectation. "Someday, in future, one may become religious." That's all. Because by killing, killing, they are going downer, down. So if they stop killing, some day they will be able to understand what is religion. Sukrti. Because, without being freed from all sinful activities, nobody can understand what is God. Therefore about God, in India they can understand very easily. In other countries they cannot. Very few because always engaged in sinful activities, all forbidden sinful activities. Just like you said that gambling has been introduced in religion. Killing has been introduced in religion. What is that religion? The more they take to the sinful activities, the more they become implicated -- again birth and birth and birth and birth. Unless one is completely free, he cannot understand what is God. Yesam anta-gatam papam. You know this verse? The Bhagavad-gita, yes.
Pancadravida: When one becomes free of sinful activities, then he can begin devotional life.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
[Bg. 7.28]
To stick to Krsna bhajana is not so easy, that you will go on committing all sinful activities and you will become Krsna devotee. That is not possible. You have to give up, and you have to come. But this is the process. You will be free, and you will understand. Guru-krsna krpaya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. If one follows bona fide guru's instruction and he is engaged in devotional service, then it is possible. Then it is possible. Otherwise, if he does whimsically then it will be a failure. He must carry out the instruction of the guru, bona fide guru. Guru means bona fide guru, not pseudo guru. And according... What guru will advise? To be engaged in Krsna's service. These two things will help him. Otherwise it is not possible. Guru-krsna-krpaya: "By the mercy of guru and by the mercy of Krsna." So both of them should be served. That is the process, not that "Now I have become advanced devotee. I don't require to serve guru." Neither, "Oh, I am serving my guru. I don't care for Krsna," no. Parallel line. Not that "One line I can walk," no. Parallel line. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Therefore in our temple, along with Deities, guru is also worshiped. Gurusu nara-matih, if one accepts guru -- "Guru is guru, guru is guru" -- as ordinary human being, then that is offense, naraki buddhi.
Mahamsa: That kind of worship is eternal.
Prabhupada: Yes. Janme janme pita sei. Cakhu-dan kilo jei, janme janme pita sei.
Pancadravida: Where is that sloka you were quoting last night from that ending gokala.
Prabhupada: Go-kharah, go-kharah. That is in Bhagavata. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma idya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. You give him that sloka, (indistinct). So actually at the present moment the whole world is full of go-kharah, that's all, animals. Everyone thinks in terms -- "I am this body," that's all. He is not human being, but every so-called civilized man is thinking like that. So where is the civilization of human being? All go-kharahs, animals. [break] ...because if you keep all these ingredients, life will come. Is it not?
Pancadravida: When the soul is entering, they are all complete?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. If you keep... A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are... If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there, and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, "Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency. Therefore the life is not coming." No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist? You prepare. "No, in future we shall see." And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go-kharah. They cannot prove; still they will insist, "Yes." And so far God is concerned, we learn from sastra that God's two energies are working like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see. How these mangoes have come unless there is some energy? So therefore the energy is working. Therefore God is there. Just like as soon as light is there, although we are in the room we can understand that sunlight is there. As soon as the darkness is there, we understand that there is no more sun. So in the presence of energy... Just like in the motor car, before starting, you round the key, and it becomes, "Gut, gut, gut, gut." Now your current is there. The energy is there. So there are symptoms. By symptoms we can understand there is God. Where is the difficulty? And Krsna is explaining, "Here, just see the symptom. The taste in the water I am." Then why do you say that you have not seen God? You are liar. You create that taste? Now take sea water and make that taste. Why do you take water from here and there? Sea water is there. Now you take it, and by chemical you create the taste. Why don't you? Therefore, unless God is there, you cannot do that, or God's sanction, you cannot do that. This is reasonable understanding of God, apart from seeing God. And because the taste is there -- Krsna says-therefore God is there. According to your capacity, you have to see God like that. You cannot see immediately Krsna, with dvi-bhuja murali, playing on flute. That you have no capacity. You have to see God like that. So when the rubber stamp is going to be delivered?
Devotee: I will bring it today.
Prabhupada: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varnasrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brahmana. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brahmana. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating sudras. What they will understand? Simply sudras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that sudra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Krsna, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13], they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brahmana class and above, post-graduate of brahmana class, Vaisnava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil . They will indulge in this meat-eating and drinking wine and illicit sex. Then it will be hell, and it has already become. Whole world is full of hellish person. In a civilized country like America you cannot walk alone in the street at night. India is still honest. Any part of India, you can walk. Because the more sinful. Is it not? In New York, especially in Brooklyn or anywhere, you cannot walk alone. Is it not? Yes. Your life is at risk. That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The negroes, they capture and rape. Life is unsafe even in a civilized city like New York. So what is this civilization? Our (name withheld) was... [break] ...Park. (Name withheld) our. Yes, she said.
Mahamsa: She said?
Prabhupada: No, no, she said. She was captured by a group of negroes to rape her. [break] That girl, what is his name? (name withheld) wife?
Satsvarupa: (Name withheld).
Prabhupada: She was raped.
Satsvarupa: Trinidad.
Prabhupada: Yes. She was raped.
Pancadravida: How do you teach a varnasrama college? In varnasrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be ksatriya" or "I want to be vaisya." Is it like that?
Prabhupada: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru.
Pancadravida: Who will teach him to be a ksatriya or who will teach him to be a vaisya?
Prabhupada: A ksatriya, a brahmana. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician.
Pancadravida: So where will we get ksatriyas and...?
Prabhupada: That is in the sastra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Ksatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is ksatriya.
Pancadravida: So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men...?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Because he knows how to teach. That's all.
Pancadravida: The brahmanas, they all become devotee... They would all be engaged in devotional life as...
Prabhupada: This is also devotion, to teach a ksatriya, because this is necessary in the society. This is also devotion.
Pancadravida: And vaisyas?
Prabhupada: Just like when Krsna is fighting. Krsna is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Krsna by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Krsna, and Krsna took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Krsna is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Krsna. Just like, the example is given by Visvanatha Cakravarti that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to... (chuckles) But if a rascal thinks that "Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always," then he is a rascal. (laughter) [break] ...lying down on the Yamuna beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, "No, there is no need of bedding of Krsna. He was lying down on the Yamuna beach, so He will lie down on the floor." So is... That conclusion is very nice?
Mahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: So we must know how to please Krsna. Generally, the sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23], that is pleasing. Therefore these rules and regulation for everyone. But when one becomes mature devotee, he knows how to please Krsna. He knows.
Nitai: One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman.
Prabhupada: Clergyman?
Nitai: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman.
Prabhupada: Where he was?
Nitai: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varnasrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...
Prabhupada: He is a sudra.
Nitai: Would we retrain him as a farmer?
Prabhupada: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that sudra also.
Nitai: He can remain in the factory.
Prabhupada: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brahmana. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, sudra is as important as the brahmana, provided he helps the movement, Krsna conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a sudra should be working as a brahmana, no. But everyone should be engaged in Krsna consciousness. That is required.
Nitai: So in that case he is a sudra, and he is also doing the work of a...
Prabhupada: Then he is not a sudra. One who is engaged in Krsna's service, he is neither brahmana nor sudra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Apparently he looks like sudra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaisnave jati-buddhih. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaisnava, here is an Indian Vaisnava," that is naraki. He is Vaisnava. That understanding required.
Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.
Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.
Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.
Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krsna, he is Vaisnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaisnava. He is above all these.
Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?
Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as ksatriya, like that.
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
mam ca vyabhicarini
bhakti-yogena yah sevate
[Bg. 14.26]
A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra's work nicely -- let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?
Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?
Prabhupada: Everything he will get.
Mahamsa: He gets.
Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: "Now he has become fully competent Vaisnava." Just like master is teaching the servant, "Now you give massage in this way, this way." But that does not mean he has become servant.
Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, "I can do so much. I can...,"
Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaisnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krsna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krsna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krsna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [SB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krsna. Jaya. That is wanted.
Pancadravida: What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day. He says, "I can't..."
Prabhupada: Then he is not even a human being. He is a rascal. That's all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking...? Don't talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal. [break]
Pancadravida: ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something.
Prabhupada: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing.
Nitai: One point that you made a few years ago in Vrndavana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don't have time to cultivate spiritual life.
Prabhupada: Well, if he likes, he can get time because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one... That is explained, apratihata. Krsna consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Krsna conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life, sthane sthitah, if he simply hears about Krsna then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Krsna, then it is difficult. Therefore sravanam. The first thing is that. The first qualification -- he must be eager to hear about Krsna. Then everything will come. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23]. [break]
Pancadravida: ...such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful, kirtana and everything, but we know they are not chanting japa. What can we do in that situation? Are we...
Prabhupada: Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service.
Pancadravida: Yes.
Prabhupada: So because on account of that service, if he could not, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business. The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it.
Pancadravida: Some persons we encounter they don't even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are...
Prabhupada: No, if you miss on account of busy-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not... Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this.
Satsvarupa: Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though.
Prabhupada: Then he is animal.
Satsvarupa: But still, he's doing lots of good devotional service.
Pancadravida: He may even be manager.
Prabhupada: Then they will get some chance later on. What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating, he is very eager, and for sleeping, he is very eager, and for finishing chanting, he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. [break] And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that "I am so busy."
Pancadravida: Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty-five rounds a day or more.
Prabhupada: That's all right. If you can chant more, that is good. [break]
Pancadravida: ...must associate with them, that is difficult.
Prabhupada: But you do your business. You don't follow them. That's all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that "Next day also, I am busy," then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way. You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion. "Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting" -- this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Krsna. Somebody, after initiation he promises, "Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds," before the fire, before the Deity, before the guru, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaisnava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises. Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating. Viddhi-bhakti must be followed; otherwise it becomes sahajiya. [break] ...Kerala?
Indian man (1): Yes.
Prabhupada: You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyatma?
Indian man (1): He was blaspheming our society. It was a (indistinct)
Prabhupada: I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that because there may be one... Because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals but you do not become rascal. He may be... [break] "...Who will read Hindi? You do not... Who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Maharaja..." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru read his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in families they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman -- he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to... And even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Not compulsory. So?
Indian man (1): Not Hindi, also they are developing local languages, they are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English medium schools.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (1): But these are also, they are definitely studying in local languages. Don't (indistinct) they are regulated. (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English.
Indian man (1): This is what I call cheating, to keep this.
Prabhupada: They are cheater.
Indian man (2): (Hindi) ...in English
Prabhupada: That is their local language.
Indian man (1): Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees don't...?"
Prabhupada: Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some sections they understand English. Everywhere.
Indian man (1): English is common language.
Prabhupada: Yes. We cannot avoid English.
Pancadravida: Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to a movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English.
Indian man (1): There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose.
Prabhupada: Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand.
Indian man (2): English in the West is the international language.
Prabhupada: They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi, fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange.
Indian man (2): He was blasting our society. That's why I let him be that.
Prabhupada: No, still, you should not say like that.
Indian Man (3): English, they speak. That's the language (indistinct) And all the people can read it. All the people can read it.
Prabhupada: We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making life members but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? I know one boy. He is about forty-two years. But he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any, prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhana(?) Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over. Now he is useless. He does not get any service. Although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English -- he does not get any responsible position.
Pancadravida: He does not want to learn?
Prabhupada: No. He was trying to learn but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious.
Indian man (1): If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will (indistinct) those others don't speak English anymore.
Prabhupada: No, local language is required.
Indian man (1): Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language.
Prabhupada: Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also, you should learn, but... We can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there.
Pancadravida: [break] ...them into all the schools.
Prabhupada: Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted.
Pancadravida: This is how it would work. This is Aksayananda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he shows them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad-gita and Krsna Books and Nectar of Devotion, like this.
Prabhupada: Best thing is that "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher. Indian religion, Indian philosophy, and Bhagavad-gita. Then... He has written so many books but not a single in Hindi."
Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India.
Prabhupada: Yes, he is from Madras.
Indian man (1): Yes, he doesn't know.
Prabhupada: No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyasa, sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swamiji, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
