Prabhupada: This is idea.
Mano-rathena, by mental speculation, asato dhavato, they will come to
materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain
in the material pool, because mind is subtle form of matter.Acyutananda:
Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have
they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very
conveniently.
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say, "We are not perfect." "I think," they say. "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it.
Mahamsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate.
Prabhupada: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value?
Gopala Krsna: It's always a hypothesis.
Prabhupada: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakrteh kriya.... Therefore it is word, prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]. Just like children -- "Ha! Sit down here" -- he has to sit down. Then where is his freedom to discuss? Prakrti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion?
Acyutananda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason...
Prabhupada: This is our...
Acyutananda: ...so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this.
Prabhupada: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that "Thou shall not kill;" they say, "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.
Acyutananda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupada: Just see. Is that religion?
Yasodanandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy.
Prabhupada: There is no.... So, go on reading.
Harikesa: I'll backspace two sentences.
Acyutananda: [break] "...have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it."
Yasodanandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying, "We also produce..."
Acyutananda: They had to purchase wheat from America.
Gurukesa: Russia is importing its food grains now.
Prabhupada: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country?
Gurukesa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from...
Prabhupada: No, what is their explanation. Russia is the biggest country.
Gurukesa: Land.
Hari-sauri: The reason was that there was no rain.
Prabhupada: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say, parjanyad anna-sambhavah... Hm? And yajnad bhavati parjanyah [Bg. 3.14]. That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuti-nyaya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth -- it is expensive -- and keep the rear side. You get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuti-nyaya. The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg.
Gurukesa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who...
Acyutananda: The word nature should be condemned. That.... No scientific-minded person can say the word nature.
Prabhupada: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Krsna. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know.
Gurukesa: That's what they never trying to find.
Prabhupada: Mudhah nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mudhah nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Mudha. Therefore they are all mudhas. So we are not going to be misled by the mudhas. That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Krsna. I think our Svarupa Damodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Krsna, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Sri Krsna." He has given this article.
Acyutananda: How do we know that Vedavyasa is not defective like other living beings?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Acyutananda: How do we know that Vedavyasa is not...
Prabhupada: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Narada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking. We are not perfect. We are also ordinary human being, but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad-gita as it is, that's all.
Acyutananda: Like the Mormon religion in America...
Prabhupada: No, no, don't bring any other.... That is...
Acyutananda: He claimed that an angel...
Prabhupada: If you accept.... We are taking from God. Krsna instructed Brahma, Brahma instructed Narada, Narada instructed Vyasadeva, and therefore we are taking.
Acyutananda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet...
Prabhupada: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mudha. We don't give any credit. We say.... Find out this, mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param.
Tamala Krsna: I have this, mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]?
Prabhupada: Hm hm.
Tamala Krsna:
naham prakasah sarvasya
yoga-maya-samavrtah
mudho 'yam nabhijanati
loko mam ajam avyayam
[Bg. 7.25]
"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent."
Prabhupada: Yes, the fools. He does not know Krsna; therefore he is fool. Read it.
Tamala Krsna: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamaya, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."
Mahamsa: So who is fool is defined as avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritah [Bg. 9.11].
Prabhupada: Hm?
Mahamsa: Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajananti mam mudha.
Prabhupada: Yes. Manusim tanum asri... That one who considers Krsna as ordinary human being, he is mudha. So read the purport.
Tamala Krsna: "It may be argued that since Krsna was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Krsna was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Sisupala spoke against Krsna being elected president of the assembly, Bhisma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pandavas and a few others..."
Prabhupada: Sisupala could not see, although Krsna was present there, but Bhisma could see. So you require special eyes.
Tamala Krsna: Tesam satata-yuktanam [Bg. 10.10].
Prabhupada: Yes. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
Tamala Krsna: Salve of love.
Acyutananda: Ointment.
Tamala Krsna: Salve of love.
Acyutananda: Ointment.
Prabhupada: Savoth?
Tamala Krsna: Salve, salve.
Prabhupada: What is the spelling?
Tamala Krsna: Salve, s-a-l-v-e.
Prabhupada: Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your.... Therefore tat-paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma. If your senses are not purified, then it is karma. There is a difference between karma and.... Premanjana-cchurita... What is that? Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brahmana," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upadhi-mukta; therefore you cannot see Krsna. You can see Krsna when you are no more within these upadhis, pure soul. Brahma.... That is real brahma-bhutah, to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on.
Tamala Krsna: "Similarly, the Pandavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gita Krsna says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamaya, and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kunti prays: 'Oh my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-maya. The brahmajyoti is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamaya curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gita. The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahmajyoti, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahma: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya, inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible."
Prabhupada: So, go and discuss. (end)
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say, "We are not perfect." "I think," they say. "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it.
Mahamsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate.
Prabhupada: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value?
Gopala Krsna: It's always a hypothesis.
Prabhupada: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakrteh kriya.... Therefore it is word, prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]. Just like children -- "Ha! Sit down here" -- he has to sit down. Then where is his freedom to discuss? Prakrti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion?
Acyutananda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason...
Prabhupada: This is our...
Acyutananda: ...so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this.
Prabhupada: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that "Thou shall not kill;" they say, "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.
Acyutananda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupada: Just see. Is that religion?
Yasodanandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy.
Prabhupada: There is no.... So, go on reading.
Harikesa: I'll backspace two sentences.
Acyutananda: [break] "...have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it."
Yasodanandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying, "We also produce..."
Acyutananda: They had to purchase wheat from America.
Gurukesa: Russia is importing its food grains now.
Prabhupada: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country?
Gurukesa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from...
Prabhupada: No, what is their explanation. Russia is the biggest country.
Gurukesa: Land.
Hari-sauri: The reason was that there was no rain.
Prabhupada: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say, parjanyad anna-sambhavah... Hm? And yajnad bhavati parjanyah [Bg. 3.14]. That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuti-nyaya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth -- it is expensive -- and keep the rear side. You get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuti-nyaya. The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg.
Gurukesa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who...
Acyutananda: The word nature should be condemned. That.... No scientific-minded person can say the word nature.
Prabhupada: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Krsna. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know.
Gurukesa: That's what they never trying to find.
Prabhupada: Mudhah nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mudhah nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Mudha. Therefore they are all mudhas. So we are not going to be misled by the mudhas. That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Krsna. I think our Svarupa Damodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Krsna, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Sri Krsna." He has given this article.
Acyutananda: How do we know that Vedavyasa is not defective like other living beings?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Acyutananda: How do we know that Vedavyasa is not...
Prabhupada: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Narada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking. We are not perfect. We are also ordinary human being, but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad-gita as it is, that's all.
Acyutananda: Like the Mormon religion in America...
Prabhupada: No, no, don't bring any other.... That is...
Acyutananda: He claimed that an angel...
Prabhupada: If you accept.... We are taking from God. Krsna instructed Brahma, Brahma instructed Narada, Narada instructed Vyasadeva, and therefore we are taking.
Acyutananda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet...
Prabhupada: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mudha. We don't give any credit. We say.... Find out this, mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param.
Tamala Krsna: I have this, mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]?
Prabhupada: Hm hm.
Tamala Krsna:
naham prakasah sarvasya
yoga-maya-samavrtah
mudho 'yam nabhijanati
loko mam ajam avyayam
[Bg. 7.25]
"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent."
Prabhupada: Yes, the fools. He does not know Krsna; therefore he is fool. Read it.
Tamala Krsna: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamaya, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."
Mahamsa: So who is fool is defined as avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritah [Bg. 9.11].
Prabhupada: Hm?
Mahamsa: Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajananti mam mudha.
Prabhupada: Yes. Manusim tanum asri... That one who considers Krsna as ordinary human being, he is mudha. So read the purport.
Tamala Krsna: "It may be argued that since Krsna was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Krsna was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Sisupala spoke against Krsna being elected president of the assembly, Bhisma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pandavas and a few others..."
Prabhupada: Sisupala could not see, although Krsna was present there, but Bhisma could see. So you require special eyes.
Tamala Krsna: Tesam satata-yuktanam [Bg. 10.10].
Prabhupada: Yes. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
Tamala Krsna: Salve of love.
Acyutananda: Ointment.
Tamala Krsna: Salve of love.
Acyutananda: Ointment.
Prabhupada: Savoth?
Tamala Krsna: Salve, salve.
Prabhupada: What is the spelling?
Tamala Krsna: Salve, s-a-l-v-e.
Prabhupada: Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your.... Therefore tat-paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma. If your senses are not purified, then it is karma. There is a difference between karma and.... Premanjana-cchurita... What is that? Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brahmana," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upadhi-mukta; therefore you cannot see Krsna. You can see Krsna when you are no more within these upadhis, pure soul. Brahma.... That is real brahma-bhutah, to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on.
Tamala Krsna: "Similarly, the Pandavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gita Krsna says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamaya, and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kunti prays: 'Oh my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-maya. The brahmajyoti is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamaya curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gita. The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahmajyoti, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahma: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya, inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible."
Prabhupada: So, go and discuss. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation -- January 8, 1976, Nellore
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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