Not only India -- The Whole World

London, March 11, 1975
download  Players

Take a test

---

Brahmananda: In your Srimad-Bhagavatam, you write that the sun purifies a dirty place and also the mind.Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: But we don't rely on the sun for purifying our mind.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Brahmananda: As devotees, we don't rely on the sun...
Prabhupada: We have the Krsna sun.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is this, sun? No.
Srutakirti: Spinnery.
Prabhupada: Spinnery. [break] There is no sunshine. It is wet always, just see? Trees also, they have moss.
Brahmananda: In India the sun is very intense.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Brahmananda: Does that have something to do that Krsna appeared there?
Prabhupada: Punya-bhumi, pious land. Still, so fallen, whenever there is a question of spiritual meeting, thousands, lakhs, will come. You have seen Kumbha-mela?
Brahmananda: No.
Prabhupada: You have seen?
Srutakirti: No.
Pusta Krsna: I've seen pictures.
Prabhupada: Very poor men, still, they gather, sixty lakhs, without any advertisement.
Brahmananda: Here you have to advertise to get six hundred.
Pusta Krsna: Or six.
Prabhupada: And it was so nice to live there, spiritual atmosphere, on the bank of the Ganges and Yamuna. Immediately you go, you become spiritualized. Vrndavana is also like that. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, bharata-bhumite janma haila, manusya-janma haila. To get the human form of life born in India, that is a special prerogative. Bharata-bhumite manusya-janma haila yara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. He is fifty percent-prepared by birth.
Brahmananda: Just by birth.
Prabhupada: Yes. And then, by culture, another fifty percent. But they have given up this culture. But the birthright fifty percent is already also there. Prayaga, severest cold, eh, I took bath in the Ganges. It is simply cutting. But still, they are taking bath and smearing over the body the ashes and sit down, chanting Hare Krsna. No care "Wherefrom food will come? Where...?" No. That's in India still. [break] ...it is also like this, cloudy?
Bhagavan: Just a few months out of the year, January, February.
Prabhupada: Otherwise how we have gone there? (laughter) Africa was part of India.
Brahmananda: The land was together?
Prabhupada: No, there...
Indian man: Geological information it was. It was together. And Australia was fitting in the Bay of Bengal. This is the theory. I learned from my lecturer, Dr. Willinghurst. He told me in my class.
Prabhupada: Because from Bhagavata we understand that the black man who was born out of the body of King Vena, he was thief. So he was sent to the African jungle. Yes. And they are still thief. (laughter) They cannot give up their... Although they have got independence, they cannot give up this habit. (Dog barking) "Best friend."
Brahmananda: Maharaja Prthu also came from the body of King Vena.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: So he stayed in India, and the other, he went to Africa.
Prabhupada: No, he was the emperor of the whole world. But the jungle part... Somebody... The whole world was known as Bharatavarsa, this planet, nine varsas: Bharata-varsa, Ketumala-varsa, Ilavrta-varsa... the whole universal situation is mentioned, where different lands are there. [break]
Pusta Krsna: ...ages, Srila Prabhupada, did the people, in order to get valuable minerals and gold and things like that, did they mine underneath the ground?
Prabhupada: No. There was no need of coal. And the jewelries and stones were received from the sea-pearls, valuable stones from the hills.
Pusta Krsna: So they didn't dig deep holes underneath the ground?
Prabhupada: No. There was no need. The richest persons' property were ivory, gold, marble, valuable jewels, pearls, silk. This was luxury, not plastic. Now they have advanced, they have got plastic, no gold, no silver. Paper money and plastic utensils. This is advancement.
Brahmananda: Do we consider ivory as something pure or impure?
Prabhupada: No, pure.
Brahmananda: It is pure.
Prabhupada: Ivory, yes. There is a current proverb, "Dead elephant, one lakh rupees." Mara hati laksa na:(?) "Elephant, alive or dead, one lakh of rupees." On account of ivory. When the elephant is dead, it is put into a hole and covered. And after sometimes you find all the ivory. The bones and the teeth are very, very valuable. Formerly big, big kings, they used to manufacture their furniture of ivory and gold and silk pad. This is luxury. And the rooms bedecked with jewel. No electricity, no lamp. This is description of Krsna's sixteen thousand palace. Who has got now? Sixteen thousand wives and sixteen thousand palace of marble and furniture ivory and gold. Where is there now? Therefore Krsna is the richest. Aisvaryasya samagrasya.
Devotee (1): Were all the races originated in India?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (1): The races were originated in India, all the races, the different races that there are now?
Prabhupada: India what do you mean by? Not the modern India. India was the whole world.
Devotee (1): So all the different kinds of human beings actually were originated there?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...men, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya. First, second, third. Then fourth is the sudras. And the fifth, candalas: no Vedic culture. They are candalas. So the Europeans, they were ksatriyas originally. On account of Parasurama's massacre process, they fled from India to European side. And Greece and Rome, they were given -- I think, Turkey also -- given to two sons of Maharaja Yayati. They refused the order of the father. The father was very licentious. So he begged from two sons that "You give me your youth." They refused. So therefore they were banished in this part of the world.
Pusta Krsna: Into England.
Prabhupada: Not England. Greece, Rome, Turkey. Next to India, they were civilized. So European race mostly come from that part. Caucasian. Kasyapa Muni. Central India. Er, central... What is called? Asia, Asia.
Brahmananda: Why it took Parasurama twenty-one times to defeat?
Prabhupada: They were not properly doing their duties. So Parasurama said, "I will kill all of them." Formerly ksatriyas were guided by the brahmanas, even Maharaja Yudhisthira, all the rules and regulations. But the brahmanas were the legislative assembly. And ksatriyas were the executive, and the vaisyas, productive, and sudras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive. Some of them are only productive, and some of them are worker, most of them. Therefore it is said, kalau sudrah-sambhavah. In the Kali-yuga, mostly all the people are sudras. Because they are workers. [ Everyone can be purified, even the candalas. Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah [SB 2.4.18]. Yavanah khasadayah. Yavanas means these European groups, and khasadayah, Mongolian group: China, Japan. So Japanese were there in Vedic age also. Kalayavana. Kalayavana fought with Krsna.
Pusta Krsna: Hare Krsna. (devotees laughing)
Prabhupada: What is that?
Brahmananda: He was recording like this.
Pusta Krsna: No, just the last few minutes. (laughter) I was listening though, Srila Prabhupada.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, will the Krsna consciousness movement will take over the world eventually?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (1): Is going to take over the world eventually some time during the Kali-yuga, in this Kali-yuga?
Prabhupada: No, that is not possible, because only the fortunate persons will take.
Devotee (1): I mean, but will the power of the ksatriyas will be in the hands of the Krsna conscious persons sometime during this Kali-yuga?
Prabhupada: Provided you become very expert to preach. Unless you preach, how they will take? [break]
Pusta Krsna: Towards the end of the Kali-yuga isn't there a description in the Bhagavatam that one will not be able to see the sun or the moon?
Prabhupada: During the end of Kali-yuga?
Pusta Krsna: Yes. Because of the impiety. So there will be no vegetation. Is that description in Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: I don't think. [break] ...it is stated?
Pusta Krsna: Well, I had heard -- of course, I'm not certain of the source -- that because of impiety the sun and the moon, people would not be able to see. So there would be no vegetation. And without vegetation, even animals cannot live. So eventually they would take to eating their own children. Is this what takes place?
Prabhupada: Yes, there will be no foodstuff at the end of... That is stated. No milk, no food grains, no fruits, no whatever. Especially food grains.
Devotee (2): There will be some devotees left at the end of Kali-yuga?
Prabhupada: Yes, only the devotees will be left. All others... [break] (loud noise of car screeching.) ...are not very neat and clean. (chuckles) Yes. That means condition is not very good. And it is sound.
Brahmananda: Not in proper repair.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: We had an engagement last night at a technical school after your lecture, and inside the entrance of the technical school in a big glass case they had a big engine from a car, when you walk into the technical school. Mostly Indians, young boys.
Prabhupada: Oh, foreigners.
Pusta Krsna: Yes. [break] So they were very disrespectful actually. But when we started kirtana, the whole atmosphere changed. Do you think that the young Indian boys in the future, they will become anywhere near as pious as their parents?
Prabhupada: Why do you take India? We are talking of the whole world. There is no question of India, Europe, America. [break]
Brahmananda: ...Srimad-Bhagavatam about the kiratas and so on. That means we can go to any community in the world...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Brahmananda: ...and preach, and some will join.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is actually happening.
Devotee (1): Prabhupada, has there been an incarnation of Krsna outside India, somewhere else in another part of the world? Or does He always comes in India?
Prabhupada: Yes. Saktyavesa avatara, somebody empowered by Him, not Krsna Himself. Just like Christ. Christ is also empowered incarnation. Saktyavesa avatara. Mohammed is also. Anyone who is preaching about God is empowered incarnation. Krsna-sakti vina nahi krsna nama-pracara. That is there in the Caitanya-caritamrta. [break]
Devotee (2): ...that your initiated disciples had some relationship with Lord Caitanya when He was on this earth?
Prabhupada: Everyone has relationship, all living entities.
Brahmananda: He is Visvambhara, means the maintainer of all living entities.
Prabhupada: Yes. Prince of Wales. Prince of Wales, I think this, I think he is dead now. King Edward, I mean to say, George's elder brother? No, not George's. George VI. Is there an elder brother? Edward? When he was Prince of Wales he was actually to be the emperor, or King of England. But he married one common girl, and therefore he was refused. So he, as Prince of Wales, he went to India. And when he saw the bright sunshine, he was surprised. (laughter) Yes.
Brahmananda: He had never seen.
Prabhupada: He, or before him, another prince. Because that Prince of... We were at that time children. So I think King George V, when he was Prince of Wales.
Brahmananda: Oh, when he came to Calcutta?
Prabhupada: Yes. I have seen. We were school children at that time. So on the two sides of the road, our first place was, the king, queen passed, we saw. We were given a flag. (laughter) "Jaya Raja, Rajesvara." We were... And very good tiffin was supplied. Two samosa, two kachori, two sandesa, and one big tangerine. Twice I saw. Once when he entered Calcutta, and again, one day, when there was a parade of military... military parade. So both days we were invited, and we saw the king. [break]
Brahmananda: ...Calcutta, on the Maidan, there's that big building, that big memorial. Is that...
Prabhupada: Oh, Victoria Memorial.
Brahmananda: That was built for, the king when he was coming?
Prabhupada: No, that was built in memory of Victoria. It was done, imitating the Taj Mahal. It took twenty years. Sir Rajendranath Mukherjee of Martin Company, he took the contract. And after finishing, he got this title, "Sir." And when it was being constructed, I went to the top by crossing the scaffolding.
Brahmananda: So you must have been very brave.
Prabhupada: Yes, I am still brave. (laughter) Otherwise how could I come alone to preach Krsna consciousness? I am still brave.
Devotees: Jaya, Srila Prabhupada!
Prabhupada: Some astrologer told that "This boy, for executing his purpose, he will enter into the fire." Yes. [break] ...recently, in our Bombay affair, it was fight with the fire. Is it not?
Brahmananda: Yes. Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: And we have come out victorious.
Brahmananda: Yes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So much obstacle, still going on. Now the governor is cornered.
Brahmananda: The governor of Maharastra.
Prabhupada: Yes, Bombay. If he says yes, that is also dangerous; if he says no, that is also dangerous. [break]
Brahmananda: We do not really understand how demoniac, how calculating, our leaders are.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Brahmananda: We have the impression, because we are taught from the very beginning in the schools, that the leaders are to be worshiped, that their birthdays are to be celebrated...
Prabhupada: Where you are going?
Srutakirti: He's going to pick up that lawyer.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Brahmananda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.
Prabhupada: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhih. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rajanya dasyu-dharmabhih. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhaksayisyanti praja sarve rajanya dasyu-dharmabhih. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the sudras, they are now powerful. Sudras. Industry means sudra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist.
Devotee (2): Even if we present a Krsna conscious candidate, the people will still choose a rogue to lead them, even if we present a candidate who is Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Canada we have got already temples.
Brahmananda: Candidate, someone to stand for the election.
Prabhupada: You cannot do anything. Unless you turn the mass of people Krsna conscious, what you will do there? Suppose one man is elected. All demons. What he will do there? Therefore the first thing is that turn the people Krsna conscious, and when they will vote, that is shortened (certain?) Otherwise, it is waste of time. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London

HOME

© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

Keeping People In Darkness

London, August 30, 1973
download  Players

Take a test

---

Prabhupada: We are speaking of this Krsna consciousness. The message is from the spiritual world. It is not of this material world. Therefore sometimes people may misunderstand. So we have to explain it nicely. Just like they cannot even understand what is the soul. A minute particle of spirit, it is... But they do not understand. Big big scientist, big, big philosophers. But the entire subject matter of Krsna consciousness is not of this material world. All it is of spiritual world, but they have no information of the spirit and the spiritual world. Therefore, sometimes they find it very difficult to understand.David Lawrence: One of the very important enclosures which we mentioned when I came up last, for the teachers' pack this was, not for the actual booklet, was a series of questions, what we would call sticky ones in the West, but I'm sure you'll deal with them with very great ease. I've tried to produce what I thought would be objections to Krsna consciousness. Not as such to theism, but more to Krsna consciousness. And if I could, Mukunda has got them in fact, there's about eight or nine. And if you could be pleased to perhaps answer them on tape, and I can have them transposed. We're going to produce this in the teachers' pack six or seven sheets of cyclo-styled notes for the teachers. So they'll be able to meet the objections perhaps, of their students. Some of the intelligent students may make points which clearly can be met.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: But we can meet them, in a sense, before they're even asked.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: That makes it even more impressive.
Prabhupada: In which point the students may possibly object?
David Lawrence: Well I've mentioned a few points on which... You know, obviously, I've studied a bit more deeply than the average student, because of the university and all this sort of business, which gives a particular form of knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: Let me think of one, yes, one that I asked which I know Mukunda has already answered for me, but we need it in the teachers' pack, of course, is the fact of the dating of the Vedas. You know, people like some of the archaeologists such as A.L. Basham and Mortimer Wheeler maintain that the Harrapa dig, so to speak, in the Indus Valley and Mahenjo-Daro and all those towns, show the dating of the Vedas in fact to be a great deal later, you know, and therefore to take away, some people would say this, to deprive the Vedas of a certain amount of authority because they no longer, according to these men, would appear to be the most ancient religious scriptures in the world. And that, that sort of question, which...
Prabhupada: Veda means not religion, Veda means knowledge. So if you can trace out the history of knowledge, then you can trace out what is the date of Veda. Can you trace out? When...? Which is the date when knowledge began. Can you trace out?
David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could.
Prabhupada: Eh?
David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could.
Prabhupada: So how you can trace out the history of Vedas? Vedas means knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So first of all find out from which date knowledge began. Then you find out the date of the Vedas.
David Lawrence: Yes, it seemed to me, I tried to read certainly, A.L. Basham...
Prabhupada: Those who know Sanskrit, they know what is the meaning of Veda. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda-vid jnane. Jnana means knowledge. That means the history of Veda means from the date of creation of this material world. Now find out the date of creation of the material world. Approximately, nobody can give what is the date of. We can, we cannot... Date of Brahma, he got the, first of all, the Vedic knowledge. Now, one day of Brahma you cannot calculate. One day of Brahma. And the... When Brahma's night is there, there is devastation up to some extent. So again in the daytime of Brahma, that creation takes place. There are two kinds of devastation. One devastation is at the night of Brahma and one final devastation is the whole cosmic manifestation finished. So these teeny people, they are after the dates of Vedas, and that is ludicrous, that is...(laughs) Just like there are many microbes, they grow in the evening and die just in the day beginning. So whole night is their span of life. So our life is like that. What history you can write? Therefore, we receive Vedic knowledge from the authorities. And what is the value of these dates?
David Lawrence: (laughs) Indeed. I mean it's the sort of thing that Western scholars excel in, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Suppose if you try to trace out when the human being began calling "mother." Can you trace out the history?
Syamasundara: They try to take away from the Vedas by making it seem very young so that the Bible is older. They think that Vedas came from Bible, many scholars.
Prabhupada: Oh? These rascals think like that?
David Lawrence: Yes, you see they say that the, because the Aryans came from or passed through at least the Middle East, that in fact some of the older parts of the Old Testament predate, so they say, and indeed some of the Egyptian higher, some of the better Egyptian stuff...
Prabhupada: So one should transcend these, what is called, historical references. They calculate in Darwin's theory.
David Lawrence: Darwin's theory's out now isn't it? (laughs) It's sort of old fashioned now. They dispense with these theories as quickly as most people do their newspaper each day.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes.
David Lawrence: One day it's in, and the next day it's out. And while it's in, everybody claps and applauds. One or two other points, perhaps I can raise one or two of them. Some of them are longer in fact. An interesting thing that came out of my study of the Christian, or certainly the Jewish tradition, and I wondered, really, on your views on this, whether it relates at all to the Indian one. It seems when you get to the really high spot of Jewish religion, which many people consider the prophets of Judah...,
Prabhupada: What is their high spot?
David Lawrence: Well, exactly,(laughs) that is, in inverted commas.
Prabhupada: They are rotting in the lowest spot, still. What is their high spot?
David Lawrence: Let's think, somebody like, perhaps Isaiah or somebody like this who was a universalist and uh...
Prabhupada: Somebody, somebody says so many things...
David Lawrence: Yes, that's right. Oh yes, I mean if you take them, they all differ in their views. But one of the things, one of the themes that comes through is the idea that...
Prabhupada: Therefore the gentleman the other day was asking, "How is that you say electricity?" Oh you were not present that time? Because we have translated there is no need of sun, there is no need of moon, there is no need of electricity in the spiritual world. So when he heard the word electricity, he became astonished.
Syamasundara: He thought the word did not exist at the time?
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: Yes, I must admit I was amazed at that reference, reading that yesterday.
Prabhupada: That frog philosophy is going on. Dr. Frog. He's simply calculating the well, that's all. How there can be Atlantic Ocean? That is frog philosophy. You know frog philosophy? Yes?
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupada: You know? I don't think you know. Who can explain what is that frog philosophy?
Syamasundara: Frog philosophy is trying to imagine the size of the Atlantic Ocean never having left my well.
David Lawrence: Oh, I see, yes. Completely beyond one's experience.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, especially of the Mr. Frog, Dr. Frog. He has never seen what is Atlantic Ocean and somebody informed him, "Oh I have seen such a vast mass of water." "Oh, is it bigger than this well?"
David Lawrence: Yes, beyond his conception.
Prabhupada: These people are like frogs rotting in the well, and what they can understand of the Vedic knowledge?
David Lawrence: Yes. One of the themes, really, that interested me was this yearning, certainly it was true amongst the Jews, to return to a rural background, you know, to a rural sort of setting. I wondered if you felt much of the Vedas was in fact a firm belief an affirmation if you like, that the most true form of life, the most pure form of life is one that's lived alongside nature, not against nature as we seem to be doing in our urban setting.
Prabhupada: What, I don't...
Syamasundara: In the Jewish tradition, they yearn for a life of living on farms, villages, small communities with cows and agriculture.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: Is this also expressed in the Vedas.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
David Lawrence: You feel that strongly.
Prabhupada: Oh yes. That is real life. Real life means you have to minimize your bodily activities so that you can save time and devote for spiritual understanding. That is real life. And the present civilization based on bodily concept of life is animal life. It is not civilized life. Civilized life means athato brahma jijnasa. When one is advanced so much so that he inquires about the spirit soul. But there is no such inquiry. Like the cats and dogs, they cannot inquire what is spirit soul. So Vedic life means to become free as much as possible from the bodily disturbances. Therefore, the first education is to become brahmacari, celibacy. You see? Now, at the present moment, they are trying to make the abortion as law. But these rascals cannot check their sex life. You see? Their philosophy is that you shall go on with sex life unrestrictedly and when there is pregnancy, kill the child.
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is their rascal's philosophy. They have no idea that by training one can forget sex life. So if you forget sex life, where is the question of abortion? Where is the question of abortion? But they cannot do that. Therefore, it is said adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By nonrestricted sense enjoyment they are gradually going to the animal, lower grade of life. They cannot explain why there are so many varieties of life. They cannot explain. So this killer of baby within the womb, so the result will be that this man who is, I mean to say, indulging in abortion, he'll be put into the womb, and somebody will kill him. And as many wombs or babies he has killed, he'll have to take so many lives and being killed. So much so that it will be rather impossible for him for hundreds of years not to see the light. He'll remain in the womb and being killed. Does not know the nature's law. One cannot violate the nature's law. You can violate the state law. Suppose you kill somebody, you can escape by trick. But you cannot escape nature's law. As many times you have killed, so many times you have to be killed within the womb. This is nature's law.
David Lawrence: I was very interested to talk to a nurse in one of the main London hospitals only last week in fact, and she was saying that they're having an almost impossible time trying to man these abortion wards now because all the nurses and doctors just don't want to do the work. In some cases, she was saying, that they take a baby from its mother's womb and it's sort of put onto a tray and thrown into a litter bin and you can see it moving!
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: And they've had one or two cases at their hospital where they've gone out afterwards and they've seen babies moving! Terrible.
Prabhupada: It has been seen in Calcutta also, in dust bin found out some child, dust bin.
David Lawrence: Terrible. Some are in such an advanced state of pregnancy that clearly life is a strong possibility.
Prabhupada: Not advanced stage, life begins from the very beginning of sex. The living entity is very small. By nature's law, according to his karma, he's sent to the father's semina and that is injected and immediately the two secretions emulsify, the man's and the woman's, and it forms a body just like a pea. That is the formation of body. Now that pea-like form develops gradually. Then first manifestation is the nine holes. Everything is there in the Vedic literature. Nine holes, they have got nine holes. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. In this way gradually the senses develop and by the time seven months, everything is complete and the living entity's consciousness come back. Prior to the formation of the body, the living entity remains unconscious just like in chloroform, anaesthetic. Then he dreams and then gradually consciousness... At that time he becomes very much upset to come out, come out. Then nature gives him "khut!" He comes out. That's all. This is the process of birth.
David Lawrence: Miracle.
Prabhupada: What do they know? They do not know anything.
David Lawrence: No, no. I was absolutely amazed to read an article...
Prabhupada: This is Vedic knowledge. So you'll get everything perfect. Therefore, how there can be any history? That is the difficulty. We are speaking everything, of the spiritual. Therefore, it is sometimes very difficult for the gross materialist. They are so dull-headed, they cannot understand.
David Lawrence: The British Association which is, many people regard an irrelevant bunch of scientists, who meet once a year, one of the good speeches was in fact given on the question of the value of human life. And one of the points was made there by somebody who has had to talk to these girls who come in to have abortions, some cases their third and fourth abortion, and they're not married of course. And saying that many of the girls regard an abortion in the same way as they regard a shampoo for their hair.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: "O, well you know, hair's got to be washed, we wash hair. Womb's got to be cleaned out, we clean the womb out." Just like that.
Prabhupada: And where is movement in the shampoo? That means that human beings are simply being put into ignorance, animal kingdom. This is modern civilization.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: To keep people in ignorance, in darkness, is ajanat. Ajanat. The Sanskrit word is ajanat. Lokasya ajanat. Ajanat means to keep in darkness. They do not know anything about the importance of life. Ajanat. Yaya sammohito jiva atmanam tri-gunatmakam [SB 1.7.5]. By this ajanat principle a man considers that this, "I am this matter." They are all doing all these things because they have no spiritual understanding.
David Lawrence: That's right.
Prabhupada: Yes. Taking the body as lump of matter. That's all. To break a stone and to kill the body of a child is the same thing. They think like that.
David Lawrence: And yet the incredible thing is the obsession with making life longer. I mean, what is the point of making a life longer that is a worthless life anyway? Because they're so materialistic.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: Take a man, somebody could say he's given a great deal of enjoyment, a man like Walt Disney, you know. He's had his body put into...
Prabhupada: Well, longer life, you can see this tree, you'll find at least five hundred years old. So this kind of longer life, what is the value? What is the value? There are many trees... I have seen one tree in San Francisco, seven thousand years old.
David Lawrence: Oh, the redwood...
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: ...the redwoods, yes. Makes Walt Disney look a bit...
Prabhupada: So this kind of longer life, what is the value?
David Lawrence: Yes, you know he had his body put into suspended animation. I don't know what they call it, cytology is it or something? They have them put into chemicals and bathed. Because he died of cancer and he wants to be woken up in about fifty years time when they've got the cure for cancer and then he can live again and make a few more films apparently. (laughter) It's extraordinary attitude to life isn't it really? One of the other problems that I was going to raise, and in fact it appears in the question sheet, it seems to be some, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, is that the right pronunciation? I always get these things wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes, Bhagavatam.
David Lawrence: A very great deal of what one could call demonology if you like. Now, I confess this raises problems for me. When a book like that...
Prabhupada: Bhagavata was written five thousand years ago.
David Lawrence: Yes, very, very ancient. Is it to be taken, the references say to Putana, is this to be taken...
Prabhupada: It is also fact.
David Lawrence: ...physically or spiritually as a demonic power or what?
Prabhupada: No, no, which one?
David Lawrence: Where, is it the demoness Putana takes Krsna and Krsna sucks her breast?
Syamasundara: Should it be taken literally or allegorically?
Prabhupada: No, literally, literally.
David Lawrence: Yeah, literally as a physical fact.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, oh yes.
David Lawrence: Now, having said that then, if one goes on logically...
Prabhupada: You'll find so many demons like Putana even at the present moment.
David Lawrence: So one could leap from behind a tree, putting it tritely if you like.
Prabhupada: The, the Bhagavatam, there is nothing... well, there are some figurative use. Just like we speak the story of Aesop's fables. That is for instruction. Just like jackal is talking with a lion. You see? So, there are stories like that.
David Lawrence: Yes, there are figurative stories.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: I mean, one or two of the stories there's a reference to Krsna and the unmarried gopis, saying that He treated them like dolls yet they were well pleased with Him. Now, would it be right to say that the main point of that story, rather than...
Prabhupada: Dolls?
David Lawrence: Yes, it says He treated them rather like dolls. It's your own translation on that one. But they were well pleased with Him. Is the point of the story...
Prabhupada: Dolls, dolls means just like doll-player, they make the dolls dance. It is like that.
David Lawrence: Yes, as He wishes.
Prabhupada: Puppets, yes, puppets.
David Lawrence: Yes. I mean is that to be taken again literally or is there, as you say, a figurative meaning there in terms of faith?
Prabhupada: No, that is literally. Because gopis were just dancing according to Krsna's desire. They are so devotees that whatever Krsna desires, they are prepared to do.
David Lawrence: See, without being too irreverent, it seems a strange thing to get young ladies to undress in front of you.
Prabhupada: Therefore I say...
David Lawrence: I'm probably misunderstanding it you see.
Prabhupada: ...it will be difficult for ordinary persons. Still, as far as possible, I have tried to explain for understanding of the ordinary people. By general reading, it is not difficult.
David Lawrence:. This is the sort of problem one comes across, whether in fact... You see, having grown up in what was really a very liberal, critical attitude...
Prabhupada: Therefore, this portion of Krsna's life is depicted on the Tenth Canto. Nine Cantos are devoted to understand Krsna. So without understanding Krsna if one tries to read the life and pastimes of Krsna, it may be misleading.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes. I think somewhere it says...
Prabhupada: Therefore Bhagavata begins, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], what is the original source of creation. Not abruptly Krsna. Then after developing all such knowledge one can understand what is Krsna. But in the spiritual world there are activities like that. The material world is only perverted reflection of these activities of the spiritual world. Perverted reflections. It is reflection, but perverted. Therefore, it is difficult. Everything is there. Basic principle that Krsna loved the gopis... Gopis were young girls, Krsna was young boy, But the same love between young boy and girl here is lust. Therefore, it is perverted. The reflection is there, but it is not love, it is lust.
David Lawrence: Yes, that's the difference.
Prabhupada: That's the difference.
David Lawrence: Yes. So it's using our experiences and refining them and distilling them and showing what the true value of these experiences is.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: ...the true meaning of them.
Prabhupada: In the gopis' love with Krsna, there is no lust. That is the difference.
David Lawrence: Reverence isn't it, reverence for Him.
Prabhupada: Here, the so-called love is lust only. It is going on in the name of love. Actually it is not love. And because it is not love, therefore such kind of love does not continue very long. It breaks.
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupada: But we don't find in the history of spiritual world the love between the gopis and Krsna broke at any time. That is the difference.
David Lawrence: Yes,yes. Whereas one in three of the Western marriages, so they say, is destined to break.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: That's what they say now, one in three. It's the latest figures.
Prabhupada: The same thing is there, but they are dragging this lusty affairs to Krsna. Generally, the rascals, they paint Krsna's picture with gopis so that their lusty activities may be supported -- Krsna also had like that. This is misunderstanding. They do not take into calculation: Here, so-called love is lust and it breaks. But in the gopis' love with Krsna there is no breaking but increasing of love. So how they can compare Krsna's love with gopis with these lusty affairs?
David Lawrence: I must admit, yes, I've read far enough on to see that and I think this is...
Prabhupada: When we make analogy, the points of similarity must be there. But these rascals are so dull-headed that they have not even logical arguments. Where are the points of similarity? That we are comparing these lusty affairs of this material world with the affairs of Krsna and the gopis? Where is the similarity?
David Lawrence: There's never mention of lust or of any animal desire at all is there?
Prabhupada: No, no.
David Lawrence: It's just reverence and love.
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna used to dance with so many gopis, everything is described there, that they embraced, they kissed, but there is no such thing abortion or contraceptive. (laughter) So these things have to be studied. How we can compare gopis' love with Krsna with these lusty affairs of this material world?
David Lawrence: Can't be done. Another question that raised itself, you'll see in the paper in fact, was the little mention in one of the books that I was reading, not from Krsna consciousness movement, just to get a bit of background, on Lord Caitanya, and it seems to have been...
Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness movement is already there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, described.
David Lawrence: Yes. If you like, the later manifestation isn't it. Of the avatara.
Prabhupada: We are simply trying to present them, that's all. It is not we have manufactured something, no. There is no question of concoction, manufacturing.
David Lawrence: No. Just passing on what has already been there.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is already there. When we speak of Krsna, Krsna is already there. When we speak of Vrndavana, Vrndavana is already there. It is not that we have manufactured some picture, imagination, no. They take it like that. The rascals take it like that, that it is a kind of imagination of the poet. The Mayavadi philosophers also take like that. But that's not the fact. It is actually presentation of the spiritual facts and as the spiritual activities are quite different from material activities, they misunderstand. They misunderstand.
David Lawrence: Yes. It's one of the interesting features was, of this little bit about Lord Caitanya was in fact that he claimed Him to be pathological.
Prabhupada: Just like...
David Lawrence: You know the manifestations obviously of Krsna consciousness and kirtana and so on. Seems to be obviously you regard as a scurrilous or wrong-headed or a dull-headed field of people who regard His manifestations of God consciousness as verging on madness, or temporary madness. What would you say about that. Obviously you would reject it.
Prabhupada: When a man is himself mad, he'll find others mad.
David Lawrence: Yes, true. (laughter) Yes, he sees a reflection of himself.
Prabhupada: If one is himself deaf, he'll think others are deaf. So atmavat manyate jagat, everyone thinks the whole world is like him. Therefore they think Krsna also like him. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. That is condemned in the Bhagavad-gita that "These rascals, because I come in human form to benefit them, they take Me as human being." That is mentioned. But these things are taken like that by the mudhas. Mudhas means rascals, asses.
David Lawrence: Really they're just talking, as you say, from within their own experience.
Prabhupada: Yes.
David Lawrence: They're being, lacking in imagination really because they can't imagine what happens when God possesses a man.
Prabhupada: Because Krsna is lifting the Govardhana Hill, they are thinking this is imagination. But if actually Krsna is God, is it very difficult for Him to lift a mountain? He's floating so many heavy planets in the air, so, weightlessness. If Krsna can make weightless so many heavy planets, is it very difficult for Him to make the Govardhana Hill weightless?
David Lawrence: Not at all.
Prabhupada: So these things have to be understood.
David Lawrence: So once again you'd say that this was a...
Prabhupada: Therefore, in the Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly said bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Simply through devotional service one can understand Me. Others will misunderstand. [break]
David Lawrence: Yes, one doesn't become concerned with these what really are the superficials of an inner state. You accept and appreciate the validity of bhakti.
Prabhupada: What is this?
Syamasundara: It's a sentry post for watchguards.
Prabhupada: Oh.
David Lawrence: Once again, many thanks for your tremendous cooperation and as I say I hope it won't put you to too much work. Obviously some of these things have already been met. To a certain extent we've done some of the work already, haven't we?
Prabhupada: Some of our students may read. If it is presented, if it is misrepresented then it is useless to publish.
David Lawrence: I don't want that to happen, you see. This is why I'm so anxious that at every stage it be seen.
Prabhupada: So you read it and find out.
David Lawrence: Will you?
Syamasundara: Sure, sure, sure.
David Lawrence: That will be... I've said to the publishers, as far as I'm concerned, they've given me a date at the end of September, but I've said if the people in the Krsna consciousness movement do not accept what I've put forward as a representative view of their own, then the date's going to go back. I've said that. So that's an accepted idea.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break]
Syamasundara: ...he's very happy and he's going to, for vacation for one month in September so that he can read and chant for one month undisturbed. He's reading now Krsna Book daily.
Prabhupada: He should, one day should have come here see the Deity.
Syamasundara: He's going to come before he leaves. He's leaving on fifth September.
Prabhupada: Oh, that's nice.
Syamasundara: He's coming next week.
Malati: She is doing her japa.
Prabhupada: All right. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- August 30, 1973, London

HOME

© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

Young Wise Men, Old Hypocrites

July 11, 1973

download  Players

 

Take a test

---

Prabhupada: Well, hypocrisy and other things, they are subsidiary. If one is pure from the very beginning, then there is no chance of becoming hypocrite. Why he should be hypocrite? If he is open, clear, why one should become hypocrite? Hypocrisy, when there is sinful activity, then hypocrisy. If there is no sin, where is the possibility of hypocrisy? A sinful man may pose himself a religious man. That is hypocrisy. But if there is no sin, then where is hypocrisy?Father Tanner: What I didn't understand is how this is covered by your four pillars, the four...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: Which of these would cover lying?
Prabhupada: Lying?
Father Tanner: Yes, telling lies.
Prabhupada: That I have already explained.
Father Tanner: Yes. But which of those four pillars...?
Prabhupada: All of them. All of them. Just like one is indulging in intoxication. He may say that "I am very pure." But how one can become pure, he's addicted to intoxicants? So I heard from one of my disciples that there is a hospital in U.S.A., and five thousand priests are there for curing their intoxication habit. Do you know that?
Father Tanner: I didn't know that number, but I know that there are hospitals and sanatoriums...
Prabhupada: So if the priest is going to hospital for curing his intoxication habit, he's hypocrite.
Father Tanner: He would admit that,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...wouldn't he? I mean, the priest himself.
Prabhupada: How a priest can be intoxicants?
Father Tanner: He would say, wouldn't he, that was just his weakness.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Tanner: He would say it was his weakness.
Prabhupada: Weakness is hypocrisy. If you are weak, you cannot become priest. Because you are teacher, religious teacher. You should not take that post. That is hypocrisy.
Father Tanner: But perhaps this is the difference, or one of the differences between western and eastern civilization...
Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of eastern or western...
Father Tanner: But in the East, your wise man is nearly always an elderly man.
Prabhupada: Not always.
Father Tanner: Not always.
Prabhupada: Not always.
Father Tanner: But in the West, you know, your priest is generally made a priest in his early twenties. Then he has thrust upon him the role of the wise man, which he doesn't always seek.
Prabhupada: Just like these boys, they are very young, twenties, between twenty to thirty. So they are made here brahmacari, and some of them are sannyasi, but they are strictly following these principles. Because they are young men, there cannot be any concession that he can become intoxicants, he can indulge in meat-eating. No.
Father Tanner: But would you think of a young man as wise man? Isn't it normal that a young man is working his way towards wisdom?
Prabhupada: The wise man becomes by knowledge, not by age. Even an old man, if he has no knowledge, what is...? He is not wise man. Wise means one who has attained knowledge. He may be young, he may be old. It doesn't matter. Vidyatvam vayasa vina. In Sanskrit word, that one becomes elderly without being advanced in age. That means he knows the knowledge. Therefore he is elderly. An elderly person means advanced in knowledge, not by age.
Father Tanner: Hm. But, you see, knowledge and attainment aren't the same thing. You know, I may know that it is wrong to be an alcoholic, and maybe I am not actually, physically an alcoholic, but it doesn't mean to say that interiorally I have cleansed myself of all addiction. The fact that you are not drinking for a year doesn't mean to say that you have overcome the intoxicant urge if that is in you, although you know it is wrong.
Prabhupada: No, this argument is not very strong. Just like one foodstuff, freshly made, it is fresh. But if somebody argues that if it remains four days more, it will become bad, that is surmisation. Now it is fresh. We take it fresh. What will happen in future, that is no consideration. In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present.
Father Tanner: But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality?
Prabhupada: This is reality. If at the present moment he is free from all sinful activities, that is reality. In future, everyone is susceptible to fall down. If he does not carry the principles strictly that proneness is there. But that is not consideration. What he is at present, that is consideration.
Father Tanner: But what he is at present may be an accident.
Prabhupada: Why accident? Which is actually happening, why it is accident?
Father Tanner: Well, for instance, if you take a man shipwrecked on an island alone, he is not in any sense taking part in impure love, or illicit love. But it doesn't mean to say that he is free from all desire for illicit love.
Prabhupada: No. Nobody's free. But so long he acts nicely, he's nice.
Father Tanner: So it is the action, rather than the, no, the exterior rather than the interior.
Prabhupada: No, interior... Well, of course, everyone has got interior tendency, but by practicing actually, exteriorally, that interior also is reformed. It is, by external behavior, the interior behavior also becomes fixed up. By practice. Therefore there is regular class so that he may be purified internally and externally. Sa bahyabhyantara-sucih. Yah smaret pundarikaksam sa bahyabhyantara-sucih. If you constantly remember the Supreme Lord, so you become automatically purified, internally and externally. Because the Lord is absolute, so if we chant the Lord's holy name, the name is also Lord. He has no difference between His name and Himself.
Father Tanner: Well, you see, we make a difference between the law and the spirit of the law, or the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. And we can say a man can keep the letter of the law without in any way keeping the spirit of the law.
Prabhupada: No, that is materially difference. But spiritually...
Father Tanner: Spiritually, that is different.
Prabhupada: No. Spiritually, the Lord and His name, the Lord and His form, the Lord and His quality, They are all identical.
Devotee: No, but there's a little misunderstanding. Prabhupada is saying "Lord." Not...
Father Tanner: Oh, you're saying "Lord." I'm sorry. I was saying "law."
Prabhupada: No, no.
Devotee: Law, law, the command, law.
Prabhupada: Yes. Lord.
Father Tanner: Yes. You can have the letter of the law...
Prabhupada: No, I'm not speaking of law. I'm talking of Lord.
Father Tanner: Yes.
Prabhupada: So Lord and Lord's name, They're the same, identical. Just like we are chanting Hare Krsna. So this Krsna name and the Krsna person, identical. Because the Lord is absolute. In the material world, the world of duality, the name is not the substance. If you require water, simply by chanting "Water, water," your thirst will not be quenched. You require the substance water. But in the spiritual world, the Lord and His name, the same thing. If you chant the Lord's name, Krsna, or any name of Lord, that is identical with the Lord. Therefore by chanting the holy name of the Lord, you are associating with the Lord. And as soon as you associate with the Lord, you become purified. Because Lord is all-pure. Just like if you associate with fire, you become warm. Similarly, if you constantly associate with the Lord, you remain purified. Therefore our principle is they are always chanting... Just like we are... I am chanting also. (Holds up beads) Or reading some book. Or talking with you about Krsna. So we are always connected with Krsna, or God. In all our activities... The whole house, you'll see, they are engaged in some sort of work which has connection with Krsna. There is no other work. So nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe. Anything attached with God, that is also godly.
Father Tanner: You say...
Mrs. Wells: I can see what Father Tanner means about the spiritual man on the outside not necessarily being pure on the inside.
Prabhupada: No, he's not spiritual man. He's a hypocrite. He must be inside and outside correct. If one is outside correct, inside wrong, he's not spiritual man. We don't accept him.
Mrs. Wells: But you begin with the outside.
Prabhupada: No. Inside and outside, both.
Mrs. Wells: But your principles pertain to the outside man.
Prabhupada: Outside man?
Mrs. Wells: The actions...
Guest (1) (British young man): You said that the four pillars that you follow are outward manifestations. They belong to a material person.
Prabhupada: Outward manifestation?
Guest 1: Hm.
Prabhupada: So outward manifestation... Just like outwardly, iron rod, it is iron. Iron. Do you follow me?
Mrs. Wells: Yes, iron.
Prabhupada: But you put the iron in the fire...
Mrs. Wells: Yes.
Prabhupada: So the iron becomes warm, warmer, and then at last, it becomes red-hot. When the iron is red-hot, it is no longer iron. It is fire. If you touch anywhere, it will burn. Although apparently it is iron rod, but because it has become red-hot, it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly keep in spiritual activities, your outward body, although it is iron and matter, it becomes spiritualized. Try to understand this example. Iron rod put into the fire, when it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Similarly this body, although material, if you constantly keep in touch with spiritual activities, then it is no longer material. It is spiritual. The body's also spiritual.
Mrs. Wells: And how long do you think this takes to...
Prabhupada: So long you keep in spiritual activities.
Mrs. Wells: For a young man or a young woman, beginning?
Prabhupada: Well, I say that there is every chance of falling down. That is up to you to keep fit. Otherwise there is chance of falling down. But even he falls down, whatever he has done, that is permanent.
Father Tanner: But, you see, in your example, if you take your iron...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...which is hot...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...once it's been immersed into the, you know, fire and is hot, then it must always burn, whatever you touch.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore I say...
Father Tanner: It's become... If you take your person, your spiritual man, or the person who's trying to become a spiritual man, and he could have done his best to make his contact with the spirit, he doesn't always after that be spiritual. You know. your iron has to burn. He hasn't got to be spiritual.
Prabhupada: No, no. As the... If you keep the iron always hot, it is fire. Is it not? Similarly, if you always keep yourself within the spiritual activities, then you are spirit.
Father Tanner: You see, I don't think that the spiritual activities which are external forms can really...
Prabhupada: No.
Father Tanner: ...of themselves change the internal man.
Prabhupada: Yes, it changes.
Father Tanner: Now, I...
Prabhupada: Actually, You can see here.
Father Tanner: You can have a person who goes to church every Sunday, who says his prayers...
Prabhupada: No, our program is not like that, we go after seven days. We are twenty-four hours engaged.
Father Tanner: Yes, yes. But all I'm saying is you can have this, and they are not spiritual.
Prabhupada: No, why not spiritual?
Father Tanner: And, you know, I don't know your disciples...
Prabhupada: That you have to learn. That you have to learn. Yes.
Father Tanner: I don't know your disciples, but it is possible that some of them, even with twenty-four hour a day, you know, exercises...
Prabhupada: Yes, our program is like that.
Father Tanner: ...fail to become spiritual.
Prabhupada: Now, our program here is like that. We have got Deities, six times arati. In preparation for that, cleansing the temple room, washing the dishes of the Deity, cooking for the Deity, arranging for the other things... So they are always thinking of Krsna. This is Krsna consciousness. This is Krsna consciousness. Just like we have got so many books. So they are reading books of Krsna. This is also Krsna consciousness. So... Or they are going to sankirtana party. That is also Krsna consciousness. So it is a question of practice and practical understanding. A theoretically one cannot understand. But we have got twenty-four hours engagement for these boys. Not a single moment lost. In this way we train them.
Father Tanner: You see, I really don't know... I don't deny that, but I don't see the difference externally between that and brainwashing.
Prabhupada: That, that, that, that... Suppose you are washing the floor of the temple. It is not external. Because there is Krsna consciousness. He's washing the floor or washing the dishes for Krsna. So the consciousness is there. So actually, our life is consciousness. If your full consciousness is only for God, then you remain always godly. There is no doubt about it. If you make division, "so much for worldly and so much for godly," then there is difference. But if you dovetail everything towards the service of the Lord, then anything you do, that is godly.
Father Tanner: Would you think it is possible to hate the Deity?
Prabhupada: Hate?
Father Tanner: Hate the Deity?
Prabhupada: Why?
Father Tanner: Is it possible?
Prabhupada: No, a devotee cannot hate the Deity. How he... Then how he can serve?
Father Tanner: Because you can see the Deity as too strong, repressive, taking away your freedom, your own wishes...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ... and so you can come to hate the Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes. Spiritualism means to sacrifice your freedom. That is spiritualism. You have no more freedom. You are simply engaged for God's service. That is spiritualism.
Father Tanner: Why, why, why were we created free?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Tanner: Why were we created?
Prabhupada: You are not free. You are thinking so-called free. You are not free. You are under the stringent laws of nature. You are not free. You are thinking foolishly that you are free.
Father Tanner: But if I am not free...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...then I can't give up my freedom for religion.
Prabhupada: You are free to some extent, because you are part and parcel of God. God is completely free. So because you are part and parcel of God, therefore you have got that minute freedom. That minute freedom, when you misuse for other purposes, then you fall down. But if you use that freedom for the service of the Lord... You have got freedom. You may serve the Lord, you may not serve. That is your freedom. But if you serve the Lord, then you become happy. If you do not serve the Lord, then you become unhappy.
Father Tanner: If I serve the Lord, do I lose that little bit of freedom?
Prabhupada: Because you are meant for that purpose.
Father Tanner: Do I lose that little bit of freedom?
Prabhupada: No, that is real freedom. Just like this, my finger, is part and parcel of my body. So long the finger serves the body, it is healthy. If it is painful, it cannot serve, then it is unhealthy. Similarly, a living entity, when he cannot serve God, that is his material condition, or unhealthy condition. When he serves God, that is his natural condition. Because he's part and parcel of God.
Father Tanner: Where did we lose the contact with God?
Prabhupada: When you misused your freedom. You have got little freedom.
Father Tanner: But at what point did I... No. Or, a child lose its contact with its Creator?
Prabhupada: It is said... Suppose I am serving my master. I can think of, "Oh, why shall I serve him? I shall become independent." That is my freedom, little freedom. So I cannot become independent. That is not my healthy stage. Just like... Take for example, a dog. A dog is healthy when he has got a good master. And if he hasn't got a good master, he's a street dog, neglected. He's not healthy. Similarly our position is like that, that we must be dependent on God. Therefore in your Christian Bible also you go for your bread: "God, give us our daily bread." So you are dependent. So it is better to remain dependent on God than to use your so-called little freedom.
Father Tanner: But your dog can be healthy in two ways, can't he? The dog can be healthy... ,
Prabhupada: No, no, this is an example.
Father Tanner: ...if he has a good master, and he can be healthy if he has no master.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: If your dog is just running free in its natural state, he is a healthy animal, but...
Prabhupada: No, a dog is not healthy. I am giving that particular example. Then he's a street dog. A street dog has no position. He's not healthy. I am giving a crude example, that a dog's posit... Similarly, we are all dependent on God. That is in your Bible also.
Father Tanner: Oh, yes, I accept.
Prabhupada: So to remain dependent on God is our healthy state. As soon as we declare independent of God, that is our unhealthy state. This is our philosophy. And your philosophy also. To remain there. That is the Vedic injunction, that nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam, eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). What is the difference between God and ourself? God is also a living entity like us, but He's the chief living entity. He's maintaining all others. Therefore we have to ask God, "Give us our daily bread." He's the maintainer; we are maintained. Just like in a family, the father is the maintainer, and the mother and the children and the servants, they are maintained, similarly the whole universe, whole creation, it is maintained by God, and we living entities, within this universe or within this creation, we are maintained. So as we are maintained, it is better to remain dependent on God than to declare our freedom.
Father Tanner: But you can in this world, within the limits of time and space,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...be a healthy person without admitting your dependence on God.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are depending. We have no business.
Father Tanner: You can be healthy and live...
Prabhupada: Now, healthy, what do you mean by healthy?
Father Tanner: Well, you know, you were saying it's what a man does that makes him that if he is pure here and now, then, and it's not his inside. It's his outside...
Prabhupada: Our description of healthy life, healthy life is to become God conscious. That is healthy life. Otherwise do you think that an animal like elephant, very strong, does it mean that it is healthy? No.
Father Tanner: No, I would say an elephant can be healthy, my body can be healthy.
Prabhupada: Well, that is temporary. Everyone is subjected to death. So you may be very strong, healthy, but you cannot avoid death.
Father Tanner: No, but then, then...
Prabhupada: So, so therefore, ultimately, you become so-called healthy or not healthy, you'll die. That is the fact. So we do not want that kind of healthy life. Our proposition is that we go back to home back to Godhead and remain with God, eternally enjoying blissful life. This is our healthy life.
Father Tanner: I, I accept these principles, but, you know, the words, I would say you could be healthy, but, you know, when you go to God at the end, this isn't on your physical healthiness.
Prabhupada: No.
Father Tanner: This is on your spiritual self.
Prabhupada: When you go to God, you go in your spiritual body.
Father Tanner: Yes.
Prabhupada: Spiritual body. So...
Father Tanner: But you can be physically healthy...
Prabhupada: Spiritually, when you get your spiritual body, there is no such material inconveniences. The material inconveniences means so long you have got this material body, you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. When you revive your spiritual body, these four things are not with you. No more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more old age. This is the difference between spiritual life and material life.
Father Tanner: Yes, I mean, this, I think, anyone who's in any sense spiritual or religious or ethical would admit because the spiritual body has no parts. So it cannot start to be or cease to be and cannot change within his own entity.
Prabhupada: No, the spiritual body is there already. Just like you have got your body. The coat is made according to your body. You existed first. Your coat was made later on. Similarly, spiritually, we exist eternally. Now, according to our different types of activities, we get a body, material body. There are eight million, four hundred thousand different forms of bodies. So the spirit soul is transmigrating according to his desire and work to different types of body. This is called transmigration of the soul. ...
Father Tanner: You would hold that the spirit is eternal...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...in the sense that in the beginning all spirits were contained within the Deity,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...and at the end all spirits will refind themselves in the Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: What...? Would you ever admit that a spirit could fail after his last chance...?
Prabhupada: That misuse of little independence. That I have already told. He has got little independence. So so long he's engaged in the service of the Lord, he remains in a spiritual body along with the Lord.
Father Tanner: No, I'm saying is it possible for any spirit not ultimately, after his various transmigrations through bodies, is it possible for any spirit never to regain contact with the Lord?
Prabhupada: Yes. If he comes in contact with a servant of God, then he revives his old consciousness, original consciousness.
Devotee: Prabhupada, what he was saying was is it possible for a spirit soul never to regain the state of God consciousness.
Prabhupada: No, why never? He has got chance. When he comes in contact with a servant of the Lord, he revives his Krsna consciousness. Then he begins his spiritual life. So how can you say...?
Father Tanner: But is it possible... You know, the world one day will end, and physical bodies will end...
Prabhupada: No, that is not possible.
Father Tanner: The world will not end?
Prabhupada: World will end. Yes.
Father Tanner: Yes. Now, I'm saying, when this time comes when all physical things end, will any of the spirits fail to reunite with the Godhead?
Prabhupada: Now, when, as soon as he likes to reunite. That is... That depends on his liking and not liking.
Father Tanner: Hm. But would you admit that...
Prabhupada: There is no... You are talking of mechanically. But I am talking of that little independence. As soon as the living entity desires to unite with the Supreme Lord, he can become.
Father Tanner: Yes, but will it ever...
Prabhupada: And so long he does not desire, he'll have to continue this material existence. So that depends on him.
Father Tanner: And could that go on and on forever, his not desiring?
Prabhupada: Well, how can I say? You have got independence of desire and not to desire. That depends on you. If you never desire, then you continue, perpetually, material life. But there is chance.
Father Tanner: Now, taking that person, when material things cease, what happens to him?
Prabhupada: Material things, material and spiritual, the living entities, they are spiritual, and the material elements, earth, water, fire, they are also material energy. There are two kinds of energies. Why two kinds? Three kinds of energies. Just like fire has got two kinds of energies, heat and light, similarly, God has got multi-energies. All those multi-energies have been divided into three. One is called internal, another is called external, and the third is called marginal. So this material world is manifestation of the external and marginal energy. So when the material world ceases to exist or it is dissolved, annihilated, so energy goes back to God. It goes back. Again, when there is creation, the same energy creates. The marginal energy, by the marginal energy and external energy. This is going on. Just like day and night, it is going on. At daytime people are busy. This is creation. At night everyone is sleeping. Similarly, when there is creation, these activities are going on. When there is no creation, it is night, everyone is sleeping.
Father Tanner: Is there a spirit opposed to the divine spirit?
Prabhupada: Spirit opp...?
Father Tanner: Opposed. Taking that the, you know, that God is good,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...is there another spirit that is not good?
Prabhupada: No, we are all another spirit. Just like the father and the son. The father is also a spirit. The son is also another spirit.
Father Tanner: Can there be opposition in the spirit world?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: Conflict in the spirit world?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes. Just like father has got ten sons. Some of them are opposition to the father. And some of them are very obedient.
Father Tanner: But the... I'm not saying of the spirit in man. I'm saying of spirits in themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes. Spirit in themselves, they are not opposition.
Father Tanner: Can they be in opposition?
Prabhupada: No. When they are in opposition, they have to accept this material body. Just like the citizens in the prison house, it means they are all in opposition to the laws of the state, similarly, anyone who is in this material world, they are in opposition to the supreme will of the Lord. Therefore they are put into this material world in varieties of life. So they can stop that opposition and again go back to home, back to Godhead.
Father Tanner: You'd like to go, would you?
Mrs. Wells: Yes.
Father Tanner: I'm sorry. Mrs. Wells has to go, sir. And you look very tired.
Prabhupada: No, I am not tired. I am a little old.
Mrs. Wells: We have the devil within us.
Prabhupada: Give them prasadam.
Father Tanner: Thank you.
Prabhupada: So our movement is we are training people to revive their original God consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead.
Father Tanner: Can I eat this up, then?
Prabhupada: Yes, take.
Father Tanner: Thank you.
Mrs. Wells: Is it fattening?
Devotee: No.
Father Tanner: No? Is it...?
Srutakirti: She asked if it was fattening.
Mrs. Wells: (laughing) A joke. No.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Srutakirti: She asked if it was fattening.
Prabhupada: Fattening?
Srutakirti: Would make her heavy.
Prabhupada: No.
Srutakirti: Gain weight.
Prabhupada: You have seen all our books.
Father Tanner: I have got several of your books.
Prabhupada: I see. Thank you. So we are approaching people to become God conscious. That's all. (Aside:) Get the light on. And in the Bhagavata it is stated, sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religion which teaches people how to love God. That is first-class religion. It doesn't matter whether it is Hindu religion or Christian religion or Mohammedan religion, if it teaches the followers how to love God, then it is first-class.
Father Tanner: I think I'm almost only teaching them to love one another.
Prabhupada: Yes. No. One another, that is going on in so many ways. You see? That has never become successful. Neither it will become successful. That is a fact. Because here the atmosphere is so surcharged with material ideas that even if I want to love you, you may not like it. That is the position here. So you cannot be successful to teach people to love one another. That will never be successful. That has never been successful. But if you can teach people how to love God...
Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them how to love themselves?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them to love themselves.
Prabhupada: Everyone is loving themselves. That is...
Mrs. Wells: Do you think so?
Prabhupada: That does not require teaching. How to eat... You love your body, therefore you eat.
Mrs. Wells: I didn't mean that sort of love.
Prabhupada: Then what kind of love?
Mrs. Wells: Loving your own being for what God gave you. Loving yourself as you are, accepting yourself. That's very difficult, you know.
Prabhupada: I do not follow. What is that, they are...
Father Tanner: Loving your own personality.
Prabhupada: Loving your personality... First of all you know what you are, what is your personality.
Father Tanner: But...
Prabhupada: If you do not know what you are, then how you can love yourself?
Mrs. Wells: This is the problem.
Prabhupada: Yes. And what you are. If I ask you what you are, can you answer?
Mrs. Wells: No.
Prabhupada: Then? What kind of love...?
Father Tanner: But I would say that, that I am so many...
Prabhupada: But if you do not know what you are...
Father Tanner: No, no. I'm saying I do know.
Prabhupada: If you know, then tell me what you are.
Father Tanner: So many things it would take a long time to say.
Prabhupada: Why long time? You can speak in short shell, nutshell, that "I am this."
Father Tanner: No, no. Not... You know, in some ways...
Prabhupada: We can say. We can say.
Father Tanner: In some ways, I am very intolerant. In some way, I am very tolerant.
Prabhupada: That, that is another thing. First of all I must know what is my identity.
Father Tanner: But my identity is made up of so many... It's not one thing.
Prabhupada: But that one... First of all one. Just like we say that "My identity is that I am eternal servant of God." This is my identity.
Father Tanner: Well, this is the inner being, but then it finds expression in me...
Prabhupada: Now, as servant of God, I may have many activities. But my identity is that I am eternal servant of God. This is our identity. So if I love myself, because I am eternal servant of God, therefore, if I actually I love myself, I must always engage myself in the service of the Lord. This is love.
Father Tanner: But there must, in your self, there must be times when you're angry, times when you're...
Prabhupada: I can become angry for God.
Father Tanner: Times when you're proud, times when you're humble.
Prabhupada: For God's sake... Suppose you are serving some master. For the master's satisfaction, you sometimes become angry.
Father Tanner: Hm, but I think what Susan was saying is that our personality...
Prabhupada: No, no. I'm... First of all, if you keep your identity fixed-up, even if you become angry, it is not bad.
Father Tanner: No. But you can become it... what, you know, we are saying is...
Prabhupada: Suppose just like I tell you that a dog is your servant. It is standing on the door. Some thief is coming. If the dog becomes angry, "Baw! Gaw! Gow!" so that, to become angry is not bad for the dog...
Father Tanner: No.
Prabhupada: ...because he's serving the master. So similarly, if you are fixed-up in your business as servant of the Lord, so even if you become angry for Lord's service, that is not bad.
Father Tanner: But you..., the dog might bite his master.
Prabhupada: No.
Father Tanner: Yes, he can.
Prabhupada: I don't think a... Anyway, that is dog. I... That's a crude example. But a spirit soul, when he's fixed-up in the service of the Lord, he does not bite his master. (laughter) He does not... He only serves. So we must know, if I actually love myself, first of all I know what I am. If I know, then I can properly love myself. If I do not know what I am if I think that "I am this body," oh, this conception the dog has also. He's also thinking, "I am this body." To keep this body in fitness, to eat nicely, to sleep nicely, this consciousness is there in cats and dogs. So therefore, as spirit soul, as human being, first of all you know that "Whether I am this body or something else?"
Father Tanner: But you know what you are and what you become. I hate what I am. I want to become something different.
Prabhupada: No, that is your freedom. You can do.
Father Tanner: Now, this is the same as a material man saying "I want to become spiritual or God conscious or what have you." But, you know, because I want to become this, it doesn't mean that I am this. Because I want to become God's servant, it doesn't mean that I am God's servant.
Prabhupada: No, you don't, you do not want, you want or not want, that is not the question. First of all you must know what is your real identity. You do not want and do want, that independence you have got always. That is a different thing. But first of all you must know what is your identity. Your identity is... That I have already explained. The... You are part and parcel of God. So far we understand, our philosophy is... From the Bhagavad-gita. Mamaivamsah. The whole thing is one unity, unit, and everything is part and parcel of God, His energy. So we, the marginal energy, living entities, we are also part and parcel of God. As part and parcel of God, what is my duty? Just like this finger. There is itching. Immediately it comes, serves. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London

HOME

© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

Violent Nonviolence

July 24, 1973

download  Players

 

Take a test

---

Prabhupada: (indistinct) ...how you can reject one and accept another. It must be properly utilized.Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Just like if one has got money, he cannot... He can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly himsa, it is used for... Just like in Manu-samhita it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also himsa, to get him a man hanged. But Manu-samhita says that this kind of himsa is necessary. Because the man who's committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, in his next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to sastra, himsa..., ahimsa is good, but when there is necessity, himsa is also good.
Reporter: Yes. When there is right himsa, then it becomes a right action.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: And therefore it is no more himsa. But when the devilish...
Prabhupada: And actually it is not himsa.
Reporter: Actually it is not himsa, exactly, but...
Prabhupada: Just like father gives a slap.
Reporter: Yeah, it is not himsa.
Prabhupada: It is not himsa.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Similarly, the himsa, so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, that is not himsa. That is love.
Reporter: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Krsna...
Prabhupada: Then it is himsa.
Reporter: Yeah. Then it is himsa. And I am against that himsa which is not directed by Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are all living in, nuclear age where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Krsna is...
Prabhupada: That is himsa.
Reporter: That is himsa.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean...
Prabhupada: That you have understood. That is my point.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, is not himsa.
Reporter: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's...
Prabhupada: The same example as I gave, gave you. That when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not himsa. It is doing good to him.
Reporter: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Krsna.
Prabhupada: No... King is... King means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Krsna's representative, nara-devata. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Krsna. Just like Krsna's business is paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8].
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful.
Reporter: But today's kings...
Prabhupada: Today's no... I'm speaking... Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupada: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. This catur-varna. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brahmana, whether he's acting as a brahmana. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as sudra, but he's claiming to be brahmana.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Isn't it?
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king, it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "Doctor, Medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brahmana, he must act as brahmana. If one is claiming to be ksatriya, he must act as a ksatriya. Now, what are the qualifications of brahmana, what are the qualifications of ksatriya, they are there already in Bhagavad-gita.
Reporter: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmena idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. By quality. Guna-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a sudra is employed, is engaged as a sudra, a vaisya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaisya. Vaisya, it is said that krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Now the vaisyas, they are in the share market speculating.
Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaisyas. (laughs) Exactly.
Prabhupada: Industrialists. Industrialists means sudras. So if they're sudras, why they should claim as...
Reporter: Vaisyas.
Prabhupada: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaisya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaisyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.
Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly brahmanas. Nehru. He is brahmana, but what did he do as a brahmana? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.
Reporter: Hm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Krsna consciousness, and the vaisyas are no more following that duty...
Prabhupada: This is, this is... This world is material world. And (aside:) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad. (desires woman guest to sit comfortably)
Devotee: Would you like a chair?
Woman guest: No, it's okay.
Reporter: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva-dharma, their true self...
Prabhupada: That anyone can do at any moment, any moment.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupada: Any moment.
Reporter: Yeah. But then what is the action for the... Practical action, practical...
Prabhupada: Practical action... If you give up... If a brahmana gives up sva-dharma, then it becomes a varna-sankara.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Kula-dharma, what is that in the Bhagavad-gita? Jati-dharma, kula-dharma. So they produce varna-sankara. If one does not follow the jati-dharma, the kula-dharma, then he comes to the category of varna-sankara. Sankaro narakayaiva. So when... A person born in brahmana family not acting as a brahmana, he's varna-sankara. So when there are number of people from the varna-sankara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakayaiva. Sankaro narakayaiva. What is that? Read that.
Pradyumna:
kula-ksaye pranasyanti
kula-dharmah sanatanah
dharme naste kulam krtsnam
adharmo 'bhibhavaty uta
"With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice."
adharmabhibhavat krsna
pradusyanti kula-striyah
strisu dustasu varsneya
jayate varna-sankarah
 [Bg. 1.40]
Prabhupada: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gita. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jati-dharma, and creating varna-sankara... Varna-sankara, just like brahmana, ksatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process dasa-vidha-samskara. So the first samskara is garbhadhana. So in this Bhagavata it is said by Narada that as soon as garbhadhana-samskara is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes sudra. So who is observing the garbhadhana-samskara? Nobody.
Reporter: (laughs) Nobody.
Prabhupada: Therefore, kalau sudra-sambhavah. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as sudra. No brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. All sudra, or less than sudra.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Pancavan.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali-yuga. Mandah sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutah [SB 1.1.10]. They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Krsna, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Krsna, why Krsna should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Krsna was there on this planet, there was Kuruksetra battle. You know better than me.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, if big, big scholars say, when Krsna says that man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji... [Bg. 18.65]. The scholars say, "It is not to Krsna." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. The leaders... Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jati-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varna-sankara.
Reporter: Yes. Everybody is varna-sankara.
Prabhupada: Therefore the only remedy is
harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
 [Cc. Adi 17.21]
This is the only, this Krsna consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the...
Reporter: Hm. But what...?
Prabhupada: It is most scientific.
Reporter: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma-yoga, the action, to transform the society, bring back into the...
Prabhupada: Yes, the yoga in its preliminary stage is karma-yoga. Yoga, yoga means connecting.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So karma, when you...
Reporter: Yoga karma sukhosanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Akarma sukhosanam.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you are addicted to karma.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupada: So if you bring bhakti, karma-misra-bhakti, that is called karma-yoga. Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jnana. When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jnana-misra-bhakti or jnana-yoga. So, this things are there. Just like karma-yoga. Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam [Bg. 9.27]. This is karma-yoga. You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Krsna says yat karosi, never mind, even if you are a thief. Your business is stealing-steal. Yat karosi means that includes everything. Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu.
Reporter: Ma phalesu.
Prabhupada: This is karma-yoga -- when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Krsna, that is karma-yoga.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah, but karmany evadhikaras te...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: This is the, the point that...
Prabhupada: Yes, you have to work.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: See?
Reporter: But... So... If our responsibility is to act without attachment for the result, I accept, I agree with it.
Prabhupada: But Krsna says that purottama manah (?). The result must be there.
Reporter: Yes. But that should be...
Prabhupada: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot...
Reporter: Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore you must be giving to someone, to who is the perfect person who can take it. That is Krsna.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah.
Prabhupada: So yat karosi, that is the... Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Krsna. Therefore it's bhakti-yoga, karma-yoga, whatever you...
Reporter: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: But Krsna is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight?
Prabhupada: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kuruksetra.
Reporter: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our...
Devotee: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do?
Prabhupada: The Krsna's representative will tell you. Krsna is not there, but Krsna's representative is there. So you have to ask the Krsna's representative.
Reporter: So that's why I have come to you...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...to ask you.
Prabhupada: If you think we are representative of Krsna, that is good. (everyone laughs)
Reporter: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: They're thinking, "And to become Krsna's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult.
Reporter: It is not difficult.
Prabhupada: Because Krsna... Who is Krsna's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, that
amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa
yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa
 [Cc. Madhya 7.128]
You understand Bengali?
Reporter: No.
Prabhupada: He says that "By My order, you become a guru." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ajnaya, order?" That yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]': "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Krsna has spoken." That's all. What is the difficulty? If we speak what Krsna has spoken, exactly... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita As It Is, without my interpretation, no nonsense. No. Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that here is Bhagavan, Krsna. There is no more superior person or authority than Krsna. So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. We are saying the same thing. Krsna said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Krsna."
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: "Don't bother with any other things." Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So we are teaching them, that always think of Krsna, always become devotee of Krsna, always offer obeisances to Krsna. So what is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Krsna's representative. Who is representative? What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Krsna and take Krsna's book Bhagavad-gita and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Krsna has spoken. He speaks his own words of the authority of Krsna.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad-gita? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy-speak. Why you take advantage of Bhagavad-gita? But that is going on. They take advantage of Bhagavad-gita and speak their all nonsense things. They're not representative of Krsna. Krsna's representative is he who exactly speaks what Krsna has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Krsna's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Krsna.
Reporter: Hm. No, but... Can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Krsna is speaking in a context of a clear defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us.
Prabhupada: Why not available?
Reporter: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the...
Prabhupada: Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66].
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now, dharma means occupation. Dharma is not translated as religion.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupada: This is wrong translation. Dharma means occupation.
Reporter: Activity?
Prabhupada: Activity, occupation.
Reporter: All activities.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Krsna says, "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it..."
Reporter: But He's saying sarva-dharman parityajya... [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...not sarva-karman parityajya.
Prabhupada: Dharman means karman. Dharma means activity. Just like a brahmana...
Reporter: But activity...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) -- just a minute -- how he can understand the brahma? Guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13].
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So this dharma, brahmana-dharma, ksatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brahmana, he's practicing, samo damas titiksa arjava jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhava-jam. Ksatriya-karma svabhava-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brahmana's executing the karma of brahmana, he's dharma.
Reporter: Yes, but then karmany evadhikaras te...
Prabhupada: Karmani means that you are as you are...
Reporter: No, no (indistinct) evadhikaras te. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Anyway...
Reporter: 'Cause activity...
Prabhupada: Dharma means karma. Dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42].
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is karma. So brahmana's activity means brahmana. So that activity is karma. Ah? Yajana yajana pathana pathana dana pratigraha, these are brahmanas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Ksatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the ksatriya's karma. These the brahmana's karma. These are the, eh, vaisya's karma. These are the sudra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brahmana, you have to act as a brahmana.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: You are ksatriya, you have to act as a ksatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock offering mangala-arati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Krsna mantra, then taking the class and taking prasadam, then going to outside for performing sankirtana, to distributing books. All day, twenty-four hours karma. So therefore outsiders, they can not understand, that "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing, what kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti. They think bhakti means, just like "Close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that.
Reporter: Bhakti is the quality...
Prabhupada: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was giving the certificate-bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity. What is the quality of it. Yes, how you can live without being active? You are living being. That's not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of our activity. That makes one karma-yogi, jnana-yogi, dhyana-yogi, bhakti-yogi. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing.
Reporter: Hm. Can I ask you another...
Prabhupada: Therefore it is called karma-misra-bhakti. It is not unalloyed bhakti.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupada: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma.
Reporter: There's no karma.
Prabhupada: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Prabhupada: Ah, akarma.
Reporter: Sannyasa.
Prabhupada: No, more than akarma.
Reporter: Sannyasa?
Prabhupada: More than a... Sannyasi is akarma, yes. Sannyasi is also not akarma. Sannyasa means... That is also described in Bhagavad-gita. Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah [Bg. 6.1]. That is also karma. Karyam karma karoti yah sa sannyasi. "It is my duty" -- on this principle when one works, he is sannyasi. He does not work for himself, he works for Krsna. And that is sannyasi. Anasritah karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anasritah karma-phalam. Karyam: it is my duty. Karyam. Karma karot... Karma karoti yah. That is karma. Sa sannyasi. So how you can say in sannyasa there is no karma? Karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Krsna, to satisfy Krsna, anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama [Cc. Madhya 19.167].
Reporter: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma?
Prabhupada: Akarma means that does not produce another karma. Or sometimes akarma means laziness.
Reporter: No, no, (laughs), in the sense of Gita.
Prabhupada: Karmano hy api boddhavyam. So akarma means, that is bhaktya. Akarma means, just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra karma-bandhanah. Anyatra karma-bandhanah: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajnarthe, for Visnu, for Krsna, that is not karma, that is akarma. It does not produce, karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. In the Brahma-samhita it is said, "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three.
Prabhupada: That... Vikarma means..., karma means you act according to the injunction of the sastra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate the injunction of the sastra.
Devotee: Violate.
Prabhupada: Violate.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the sastra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities.
Reporter: Hm. That's the vikarma.
Prabhupada: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the sastra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. But generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities, no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyah suna (Sanskrit). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the sastras: illicit sex life. You can not indulge in sex life without marriage, that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the sastra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma, you're becoming bound up being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. Otherwise, beginning from ant, up to the Brahma, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma.
Reporter: Hm. Vi... But is it not like vasistham jnanam vijnanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Ah?
Reporter: Vasisthan karman vikarman? "Vi -- " is generally used as to... a sort of bhaktya.(?) To give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijnanam, jnanam vijnanam. Karman vikarman. So this a little, what is the root of the language? I don't...
Prabhupada: Jnanam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jnanam means theoretical knowledge. And vijnanam means practical knowledge. Jnanam vijnanam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajna. Yajnad bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajna. Yajnesa. In the Visnu Purana it is said, varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman, visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. If you act according to varnasrama, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Visnu. Visnur aradhyate.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupada: Nanyat tat-tosa-karanam. So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varnasrama. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varnasrama, that is animal society, everything is chaos. (some people talking aside)
Reporter: You want to ask anything?
Woman: No.
Guest: (aside:) (indistinct) ...Krsna first, and then you know what to do.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we are teaching this sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], just to surrender to Krsna. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But what happens that some people have a social dimension, social political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Krsna consciousness. But then it seems to me -- I'm just asking -- that we, when we are emphasizing this Krsna consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social political dimension. So how to bring this...
Prabhupada: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Krsna did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking?
Reporter: No, no, I'm not saying Krsna did not take... I'm just saying that it seems that He sometimes, it seems, that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough..., it is not clear enough -- and I'm not saying it's not there but it's not clear enough -- the social political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear.
Prabhupada: It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Krsna gives direction, that this is the business of the brahmana, this is the business of ksatriya. So politics is the business of the ksatriya. So if you act according to Krsna's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mala and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a ksatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaisya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Krsna is giving direction: "This is brahmana's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brahmana. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brahmana? Then there is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Krsna, they do not abide by the direction of Krsna. Still, they have become leaders. Then the whole thing is chaos.
Reporter: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now what we are, Ann and myself, we are publishing a magazine called Researchers.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: And John Temple(?) was here?
Devotee: John Temple(?) was here a few days ago, yes.
Prabhupada: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him.
Reporter: Yes, he was editor before.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking-Mahadeva was also in it -- but how we can bring this total understanding together? So when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first...
Prabhupada: We are presenting...
Reporter: ...they understand the way of communication.
Prabhupada: Yes. But we are asking all these students... When I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Krsna." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs)
Reporter: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupada: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpana-marjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly.
Reporter: In order to clear your heart you have to chant.
Prabhupada: That is it.
Reporter: Right.
Woman: What about meditating?
Prabhupada: This is the best medicine, meditation.
Woman: What about the other kind?
Prabhupada: When meditation, meditation, dhyana, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Krsna!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear.
Woman: What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them.
Devotee: But Krsna is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Krsna's taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Krsna consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Krsna consciousness.
Woman: Oh, I see.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Krsna is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (everyone laughs).
Reporter: No conflict.
Woman: I am not sure, I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean...
Prabhupada: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. That's why Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They'll support: this killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that (?). They want to kill. That's all. That is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But if you do not follow, at the same time you say you are not Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated -- I've asked so many Christians -- that "Why do you kill?" Christ said "Thou shalt not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretations. That is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shalt not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses?
Woman: But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it?
Prabhupada: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shalt not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it?
Reporter: True.
Prabhupada: Just see Arjuna -- you are talking of Arjuna -- before fighting, before killing so many things, he getting clarified. Ah? (Sanskrit) Just see, "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside:) Hm. Read that.
Pradyumna:
yady apy ete na pasyanti
lobhopahata-cetasah
kula-ksaya-krtam dosam
mitra-drohe ca patakam
katham na jneyam asmabhih
papad asman nivartitum
kula-ksaya-krtam dosam
prapasyadbhir janardana
 [Bg. 1.37-38]
"O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?"
Prabhupada: He's thoroughly understanding-before killing. Not that "We have (indistinct) reason to kill." No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see. This is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church? Although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things. Why?
Reporter: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious...
Prabhupada: Life.
Reporter: ...experience in life.
Prabhupada: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how will you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply rubber-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets?
Reporter: Same as you were saying, Nehru was not a brahmana, but only because he was called brahmana. So...
Prabhupada: No, why Nehru? Everyone.
Reporter: Everyone.
Prabhupada: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a sudra. Kalau sudra-sambhavah.
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupada: But there is no disappointment. Krsna says,
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
 [Bg. 9.32]
So even one is sudra, we can give him deliverance by this Krsna consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a sudra. But Krsna says mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh, even if you are lower than the sudra, te 'pi yanti param gatim. If he accepts Krsna, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become sudra. There is remedy also.
Reporter: Even the sudras can...
Prabhupada: Yes. Lower than sudra. Why sudra? Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah [SB 2.4.18]. They become purified if they accept the real representative of Krsna. Prabhavisnave namah. Yad-apasrayasrayah. Everything is there in the sastras. If you take advantage of the benefit of the sastras, everything can be remodeled, everything can be good. There is no cause for disappointment. But unfortunately they'll not agree. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya. Na siddhim sa avapnoti. One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative sastra, he'll never get success, na siddhim avapnoti. Na sukham: neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? It is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the sastra. Now Krsna is accepted the supreme authority by all the acaryas. The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the acaryas. Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami, Nimbarka, Lord Caitanya...
Reporter: Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: Sankaracarya. They all accept Krsna. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. They accept it. So how can you defy all these acaryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense.
Reporter: But all these acaryas interpret in different, different ways.
Prabhupada: No. No.
Reporter: No?
Prabhupada: On the principle, they never... Just like Sankaracarya and Ramanujacarya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments on Bhagavad-gita. Sankaracarya, although he is impersonalist, he says narayanah parah avyaktat: Narayana is beyond this cosmic manifestation; He's transcendental. That means he says He's person. Narayana, as soon as Narayana, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in the spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy, he started the philosophy, brahma satyam jagan mithya.
Reporter: Brahma satyam jagan mithya.
Prabhupada: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithya. Sankaracarya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college, hospital... Never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithya, then why should we bother all these things?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So who is following Sankaracarya? And they say that "We are followers of Sankaracarya." And they are engaged. Sankaracarya follower means he must become first of all sannyasi, then talk anything else. So who is taking, going to do that?
Reporter: And all those Sankara Matha and Sankaracarya's various places in India, don't live as jagat was mithya. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, jagan mithya... We don't say jagan mithya.
Reporter: No.
Prabhupada: We Vaisnavas, why should I say jagan mithya? If God is true, what is created by Him, that is also true. Because Krsna says bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca, bhinna me prakrtir astadha [Bg. 7.4]. Me, "My." So why should I take Krsna's things as false? If Krsna is true, His things are also true. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Krsna, it can be used for Krsna's purpose. That is karma-yoga, bhakti-yoga. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Just like here is a microphone in the tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say "No, no, we are Krsna conscious, we cannot touch this material thing." We don't say that. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Everything has connection with Krsna, so why shall I call it as material? Parityaga. This is condemned by Rupa Gosvami,
prapancikataya buddhya
hari-sambandhi-vastunah
mumuksubhih parityago
vairagyam phalgu kathyate
The mumuksu, the Shankarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world.
Reporter: He who wants liberation.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Mumuksu.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mumuksu. So this mumuksu, they're giving up this material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari-sambandha.
Reporter: Yes, hari-sambandha.
Prabhupada: They do not know this art.
Reporter: Krsna connection, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Now people know only "French Connection," they're forgetting Krsna connection. (laughs) Yes, very true.
Prabhupada: But we see everything has got Krsna connection. Therefore we utilize it for Krsna. Just like you're talking about Krsna, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Krsna's service. Why should I give it up? Because the airplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. Every year I'm wandering all over the world, twice, thrice. Because if you use airplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Krsna consciousness movement, why shall I give it up? It is mithya. Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach, very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairagya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk things under the tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree nobody will come to me. (everyone laughs) So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy.
anasaktasya visayan
yatharham upayunjatah
nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe
yuktam vairagyam ucyate
Yukta-vairagya. After all, you have to practice vairagya. Not under attachment. But in connection with Krsna, nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithya, how do they consider mithya? Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithya, but they are accepting it, under a different name -- "Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital..." They're coming to the mithya platform, under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithya why you are starting a school?
Reporter: Yes. Only way is to sannyasa.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is not sannyasi business. For starting school the government is there, public is there. Why you... That means brahma satyam you could not understand; you are coming to the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satyam. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So, people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this, give me some candana." "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithya, why you are coming again to this mithya platform?
Reporter: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.
Prabhupada: Detachment, that is required.
Reporter: Anasakta.
Prabhupada: Yes, detachment and jnana. Jnana-vairagya.
Reporter: Hm. The jnana-vairagya.
Prabhupada: This is the real achievement of human life, that jnana-vairagya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah [SB 1.2.7]. Ah? Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty asu vairagyam. Janayaty asu vairagyam. Just like these boys.
Reporter: Quick detachment.
Prabhupada: Ah? Immediate...
Reporter: Instant, instant, asu vairagya.
Prabhupada: Asu vairagya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke, I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty asu vairagyam. They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (everyone laughs) This is vairagya. They do not want anything except Krsna. They do not want anything except Krsna. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they've got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, the Western countries. How they have given up? Jnana-vairagya. Janayaty asu.
Reporter: Vairagya, yes.
Prabhupada: Asu, "very immediate."
Reporter: Hm. Instant.
Prabhupada: Instant.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So bhakti-yoga is so powerful. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah, janayaty asu vairagyam... [SB 1.2.7].
Reporter: Is this in the Gita, in Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: No, in Bhagavatam.
Reporter: Bhagavatam, yes.
Prabhupada: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up.
Reporter: But he was not in power or position.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi, "You have so much respect now, now you have got sva-raja, you give up this business, let us preach Bhagavad-gita, people will hear you." Before starting this movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.
Reporter: But he was praying, he was going to pray Hare Krsna. He was devotee.
Prabhupada: He was for political emancipation.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupada: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that...
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupada: ...these politicians, they do not grow vairagya, even up to the point of death.
Reporter: Yes, true.
Prabhupada: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Pantha(?)... They stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither did they know that there is necessity of vairagya. But Vedic philosophy says... All the acaryas, they're all vairagis, either Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, they're all sannyasis. Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All vairagis. Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairagi. Even Lord Buddha, vairagi. This is required, but where is the vairagya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairagya. This is the first stage, vairagya, bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra [SB 11.2.42].
anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmady-anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
 [Brs. 1.1.11]
That is sarva-dharman parityajya. This is vairagya.
Reporter: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupada: Sarva-dharman parityajya means vairagya [Bg. 18.66].
Reporter: Yes, means vairagya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise we are embarrassed with so many dharmas. Social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brahmana-dharma, sudra-dharma, so many. Therefore Krsna says sarva-dharma.
Reporter: All of them.
Prabhupada: All give up. This is vairagya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya [SB 1.2.12]. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. The bhakti-yoga means, jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana and vairagya there must be. Can you find that verse?
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
 [SB 1.2.11]
Pradyumna:
tac chraddadhana munayo
jnana-vairagya-yuktaya
pasyanty atmani catmanam...
 [SB 1.2.12]
Prabhupada: Pas... Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana-vairagya... Without jnana-vairagya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then?
Pradyumna: Pasyanty atmani catmanam...
Prabhupada: Ah.
Pradyumna: ...bhaktya sruta-grhitaya.
Prabhupada: Bhaktya sruta-grhitaya. Sruta-grhitaya. By hearing from authority. Sruta. Grhitaya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. This is the process. Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya, pasyanty atmanam atmani, sruta-grhitaya, bhaktya sruta-grhitaya [SB 1.2.12]. This is the process.
Reporter: By devotion, by listening you receive and see the self...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...within the self.
Prabhupada: Yes, within the self.
Reporter: Atmani atmanam. [break]
Prabhupada: What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vasudeva, or the Personality of Godhead..."
Prabhupada: This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Never says by jnana or karma you'll get.
Reporter: Only bhakti, yes.
Prabhupada: Go on.
Pradyumna: "...who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramatma is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramatma realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings. The karmis, the jnanis, the yogis and the devotees. The karmis are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalist are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person."
Reporter: Who are those three, jnanis...?
Prabhupada: Jnanis, yogis...
Reporter: And karm...
Prabhupada: Karmis, jnanis, yogis...
Reporter: And bhaktas.
Prabhupada: So karmis are not transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jnanis, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalists.
Reporter: Yeah. So jnanis are third class.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jnanis are...
Reporter: Why?
Prabhupada: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.
Reporter: I see. They're intellectual.
Prabhupada: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupada: Aham brahmasmi. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramatma, Visnu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Krsna. This is the result of bhakti.
Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence.
Prabhupada: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.
Reporter: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhakta?
Prabhupada: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee.
Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhari."
Reporter: Hm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper?
Reporter: Researchers.
Prabhupada: Researchers.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jnanis, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. When one gets the brahma-jnana, brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20], and identifies himself, aham brahmasmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannatma: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na socati na kanksati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then, mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. After being brahma-bhuta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, suddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kanistha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikari, not to remain in the lowest stage, kanistha-adhikari.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too, each.
Prabhupada: How long you are here, in London?
Reporter: I have been on and off for two, three years.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Reporter: And I will stay two or three more years.
Prabhupada: So, you are family man?
Reporter: Yes, this is my wife.
Prabhupada: You're married here.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Children?
Reporter: One child.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Reporter: And we have called our child Mukti.
Prabhupada: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing, (everyone laughs). Rupa Gosvami says bhukti-mukti-sprha yavat pisaci hrdi vartate. Manifested..., that so long the pisaci... Pisaci, you know?
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: The pisaci of bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmi's business, "I shall enjoy."
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as pisaci.
Reporter: Really?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Ah, pisaci means witch.
Prabhupada: Bhukti-mukti-pisaci (etc.)
Reporter: "As long as...?"
Prabhupada: "So long these two pisacis are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti?"
Reporter: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti and then you can...
Prabhupada: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained.
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
 [Bg. 18.54]
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupada: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
 [Bg. 14.26]
So a bhakta is already brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's already mukta. Just like Bilvamangala Thakura says,
bhaktis tvayi sthiratara bhagavan yadi syad
daivena nah phalati divya-kisora-murtih
muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman
and dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah
 Dharmartha-kama, this is karmi's position. And moksa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, My Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this this dharmartha-kama, they're at my command." Simply by bhakti. The people are after dharma, artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], but these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah.
Devotee: Prasadam.
Prabhupada: Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asyopajayate. (Guest and devotees talk in background.)
Reporter: (aside:) Please... But calling krsnarpanam, and calling mukti and bhukti pisaci is a rather strong expression. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti.
Reporter: Yes, yes, they can.
Prabhupada: (laughs)
Reporter: The attachment is mukti, materialistic attachment, and bhukti... [break] I was very impressed with the account, how...
Prabhupada: This will be New Gokula.
Reporter: New Gokula. Hm, hm, it's very good.
Prabhupada: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvipa, New Jagannatha Puri, New Dvaraka...
Pradyumna: New Gaya...
Prabhupada: ...New Gaya, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Krsna consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.
Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.
Prabhupada: Therefore they're mudhas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So India cannot be happy being guided by the duskrtino mudhah naradhamah. It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi That "You are..." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But that... What Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request?
Prabhupada: No.
Reporter: No. Hm.
Prabhupada: But it did not go to his hand-hands of his secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister."
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Reporter: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved?
Prabhupada: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal -- to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. I agree.
Prabhupada: The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principles -- from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that.
Devotee: (to guests:) Some ksira?
Reporter: Oh!
Prabhupada: That's all? Don't get more?
Reporter: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: They actually, by destroying the Manchester millionaires, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmadabad millionaires. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one rupee per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth -- one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. Now same thing for thirty rupees.
Prabhupada: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmadabad capitalists. That's all.
Reporter: Hm. Yes.
Prabhupada: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. Very true.
Prabhupada: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness.
Reporter: Quite true. And therefore, nothing is working.
Prabhupada: No. (pause)
Reporter: I'm not going by car, as you said. (everyone laughs)
Prabhupada: Are you not plucking your hairs?
Reporter: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair.
Devotee: The whole head, you pull your...?
Reporter: Whole head, yes. It's an extreme form of a...
Devotee: Austerity.
Reporter: Ah?
Devotee: It's an austerity.
Reporter: Yes. And then I came to... I left it, and came to Benares, and...
Prabhupada: So when you joined this (indistinct-Sarboddha?) movement? At Benares?
Reporter: Yes. I was meet... I met Vinoba Bhave, and...
Prabhupada: He's still living?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is his philosophy?
Reporter: His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes, in the village, and not going to the city. This is his principle, on the economy scale. And on the spiritual end, religious, he's a brahma-vidya. He's seeking brahma-vidya. And he has in Padnab(?) Brahma-vidya Mandir.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: So he is... He is a follower of Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: Mukti, bhukti.
Reporter: Ah?
Prabhupada: Mukti.
Reporter: Mukti, yes.
Prabhupada: Pisaci.
Reporter: Hm? (everyone laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) Bhukti-mukti-pisaci.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms." Bhukti-ism and mukti-ism. Therefore Krsna says, "Give up all these isms. Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love.
Reporter: Yes. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Accha.
Reporter: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London

HOME

© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.