Prabhupada: (indistinct) ...how
you can reject one and accept another. It must be properly
utilized.Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Just like if one has got money, he cannot... He can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly himsa, it is used for... Just like in Manu-samhita it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also himsa, to get him a man hanged. But Manu-samhita says that this kind of himsa is necessary. Because the man who's committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, in his next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to sastra, himsa..., ahimsa is good, but when there is necessity, himsa is also good.
Reporter: Yes. When there is right himsa, then it becomes a right action.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: And therefore it is no more himsa. But when the devilish...
Prabhupada: And actually it is not himsa.
Reporter: Actually it is not himsa, exactly, but...
Prabhupada: Just like father gives a slap.
Reporter: Yeah, it is not himsa.
Prabhupada: It is not himsa.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Similarly, the himsa, so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, that is not himsa. That is love.
Reporter: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Krsna...
Prabhupada: Then it is himsa.
Reporter: Yeah. Then it is himsa. And I am against that himsa which is not directed by Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are all living in, nuclear age where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Krsna is...
Prabhupada: That is himsa.
Reporter: That is himsa.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean...
Prabhupada: That you have understood. That is my point.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, is not himsa.
Reporter: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's...
Prabhupada: The same example as I gave, gave you. That when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not himsa. It is doing good to him.
Reporter: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Krsna.
Prabhupada: No... King is... King means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Krsna's representative, nara-devata. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Krsna. Just like Krsna's business is paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8].
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful.
Reporter: But today's kings...
Prabhupada: Today's no... I'm speaking... Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupada: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. This catur-varna. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brahmana, whether he's acting as a brahmana. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as sudra, but he's claiming to be brahmana.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Isn't it?
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king, it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "Doctor, Medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brahmana, he must act as brahmana. If one is claiming to be ksatriya, he must act as a ksatriya. Now, what are the qualifications of brahmana, what are the qualifications of ksatriya, they are there already in Bhagavad-gita.
Reporter: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmena idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. By quality. Guna-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a sudra is employed, is engaged as a sudra, a vaisya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaisya. Vaisya, it is said that krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Now the vaisyas, they are in the share market speculating.
Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaisyas. (laughs) Exactly.
Prabhupada: Industrialists. Industrialists means sudras. So if they're sudras, why they should claim as...
Reporter: Vaisyas.
Prabhupada: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaisya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaisyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.
Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly brahmanas. Nehru. He is brahmana, but what did he do as a brahmana? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.
Reporter: Hm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Krsna consciousness, and the vaisyas are no more following that duty...
Prabhupada: This is, this is... This world is material world. And (aside:) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad. (desires woman guest to sit comfortably)
Devotee: Would you like a chair?
Woman guest: No, it's okay.
Reporter: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva-dharma, their true self...
Prabhupada: That anyone can do at any moment, any moment.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupada: Any moment.
Reporter: Yeah. But then what is the action for the... Practical action, practical...
Prabhupada: Practical action... If you give up... If a brahmana gives up sva-dharma, then it becomes a varna-sankara.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Kula-dharma, what is that in the Bhagavad-gita? Jati-dharma, kula-dharma. So they produce varna-sankara. If one does not follow the jati-dharma, the kula-dharma, then he comes to the category of varna-sankara. Sankaro narakayaiva. So when... A person born in brahmana family not acting as a brahmana, he's varna-sankara. So when there are number of people from the varna-sankara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakayaiva. Sankaro narakayaiva. What is that? Read that.
Pradyumna:
kula-ksaye pranasyanti
kula-dharmah sanatanah
dharme naste kulam krtsnam
adharmo 'bhibhavaty uta
"With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice."
adharmabhibhavat krsna
pradusyanti kula-striyah
strisu dustasu varsneya
jayate varna-sankarah
[Bg. 1.40]
Prabhupada: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gita. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jati-dharma, and creating varna-sankara... Varna-sankara, just like brahmana, ksatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process dasa-vidha-samskara. So the first samskara is garbhadhana. So in this Bhagavata it is said by Narada that as soon as garbhadhana-samskara is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes sudra. So who is observing the garbhadhana-samskara? Nobody.
Reporter: (laughs) Nobody.
Prabhupada: Therefore, kalau sudra-sambhavah. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as sudra. No brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. All sudra, or less than sudra.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Pancavan.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali-yuga. Mandah sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutah [SB 1.1.10]. They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Krsna, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Krsna, why Krsna should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Krsna was there on this planet, there was Kuruksetra battle. You know better than me.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, if big, big scholars say, when Krsna says that man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji... [Bg. 18.65]. The scholars say, "It is not to Krsna." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. The leaders... Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jati-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varna-sankara.
Reporter: Yes. Everybody is varna-sankara.
Prabhupada: Therefore the only remedy is
harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
This is the only, this Krsna consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the...
Reporter: Hm. But what...?
Prabhupada: It is most scientific.
Reporter: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma-yoga, the action, to transform the society, bring back into the...
Prabhupada: Yes, the yoga in its preliminary stage is karma-yoga. Yoga, yoga means connecting.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So karma, when you...
Reporter: Yoga karma sukhosanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Akarma sukhosanam.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you are addicted to karma.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupada: So if you bring bhakti, karma-misra-bhakti, that is called karma-yoga. Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jnana. When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jnana-misra-bhakti or jnana-yoga. So, this things are there. Just like karma-yoga. Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam [Bg. 9.27]. This is karma-yoga. You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Krsna says yat karosi, never mind, even if you are a thief. Your business is stealing-steal. Yat karosi means that includes everything. Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu.
Reporter: Ma phalesu.
Prabhupada: This is karma-yoga -- when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Krsna, that is karma-yoga.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah, but karmany evadhikaras te...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: This is the, the point that...
Prabhupada: Yes, you have to work.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: See?
Reporter: But... So... If our responsibility is to act without attachment for the result, I accept, I agree with it.
Prabhupada: But Krsna says that purottama manah (?). The result must be there.
Reporter: Yes. But that should be...
Prabhupada: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot...
Reporter: Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore you must be giving to someone, to who is the perfect person who can take it. That is Krsna.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah.
Prabhupada: So yat karosi, that is the... Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Krsna. Therefore it's bhakti-yoga, karma-yoga, whatever you...
Reporter: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: But Krsna is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight?
Prabhupada: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kuruksetra.
Reporter: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our...
Devotee: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do?
Prabhupada: The Krsna's representative will tell you. Krsna is not there, but Krsna's representative is there. So you have to ask the Krsna's representative.
Reporter: So that's why I have come to you...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...to ask you.
Prabhupada: If you think we are representative of Krsna, that is good. (everyone laughs)
Reporter: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: They're thinking, "And to become Krsna's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult.
Reporter: It is not difficult.
Prabhupada: Because Krsna... Who is Krsna's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, that
amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa
yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa
[Cc. Madhya 7.128]
You understand Bengali?
Reporter: No.
Prabhupada: He says that "By My order, you become a guru." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ajnaya, order?" That yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]': "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Krsna has spoken." That's all. What is the difficulty? If we speak what Krsna has spoken, exactly... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita As It Is, without my interpretation, no nonsense. No. Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that here is Bhagavan, Krsna. There is no more superior person or authority than Krsna. So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. We are saying the same thing. Krsna said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Krsna."
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: "Don't bother with any other things." Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So we are teaching them, that always think of Krsna, always become devotee of Krsna, always offer obeisances to Krsna. So what is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Krsna's representative. Who is representative? What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Krsna and take Krsna's book Bhagavad-gita and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Krsna has spoken. He speaks his own words of the authority of Krsna.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad-gita? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy-speak. Why you take advantage of Bhagavad-gita? But that is going on. They take advantage of Bhagavad-gita and speak their all nonsense things. They're not representative of Krsna. Krsna's representative is he who exactly speaks what Krsna has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Krsna's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Krsna.
Reporter: Hm. No, but... Can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Krsna is speaking in a context of a clear defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us.
Prabhupada: Why not available?
Reporter: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the...
Prabhupada: Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66].
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now, dharma means occupation. Dharma is not translated as religion.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupada: This is wrong translation. Dharma means occupation.
Reporter: Activity?
Prabhupada: Activity, occupation.
Reporter: All activities.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Krsna says, "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it..."
Reporter: But He's saying sarva-dharman parityajya... [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...not sarva-karman parityajya.
Prabhupada: Dharman means karman. Dharma means activity. Just like a brahmana...
Reporter: But activity...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) -- just a minute -- how he can understand the brahma? Guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13].
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So this dharma, brahmana-dharma, ksatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brahmana, he's practicing, samo damas titiksa arjava jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhava-jam. Ksatriya-karma svabhava-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brahmana's executing the karma of brahmana, he's dharma.
Reporter: Yes, but then karmany evadhikaras te...
Prabhupada: Karmani means that you are as you are...
Reporter: No, no (indistinct) evadhikaras te. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Anyway...
Reporter: 'Cause activity...
Prabhupada: Dharma means karma. Dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42].
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is karma. So brahmana's activity means brahmana. So that activity is karma. Ah? Yajana yajana pathana pathana dana pratigraha, these are brahmanas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Ksatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the ksatriya's karma. These the brahmana's karma. These are the, eh, vaisya's karma. These are the sudra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brahmana, you have to act as a brahmana.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: You are ksatriya, you have to act as a ksatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock offering mangala-arati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Krsna mantra, then taking the class and taking prasadam, then going to outside for performing sankirtana, to distributing books. All day, twenty-four hours karma. So therefore outsiders, they can not understand, that "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing, what kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti. They think bhakti means, just like "Close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that.
Reporter: Bhakti is the quality...
Prabhupada: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was giving the certificate-bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity. What is the quality of it. Yes, how you can live without being active? You are living being. That's not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of our activity. That makes one karma-yogi, jnana-yogi, dhyana-yogi, bhakti-yogi. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing.
Reporter: Hm. Can I ask you another...
Prabhupada: Therefore it is called karma-misra-bhakti. It is not unalloyed bhakti.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupada: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma.
Reporter: There's no karma.
Prabhupada: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Prabhupada: Ah, akarma.
Reporter: Sannyasa.
Prabhupada: No, more than akarma.
Reporter: Sannyasa?
Prabhupada: More than a... Sannyasi is akarma, yes. Sannyasi is also not akarma. Sannyasa means... That is also described in Bhagavad-gita. Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah [Bg. 6.1]. That is also karma. Karyam karma karoti yah sa sannyasi. "It is my duty" -- on this principle when one works, he is sannyasi. He does not work for himself, he works for Krsna. And that is sannyasi. Anasritah karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anasritah karma-phalam. Karyam: it is my duty. Karyam. Karma karot... Karma karoti yah. That is karma. Sa sannyasi. So how you can say in sannyasa there is no karma? Karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Krsna, to satisfy Krsna, anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama [Cc. Madhya 19.167].
Reporter: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma?
Prabhupada: Akarma means that does not produce another karma. Or sometimes akarma means laziness.
Reporter: No, no, (laughs), in the sense of Gita.
Prabhupada: Karmano hy api boddhavyam. So akarma means, that is bhaktya. Akarma means, just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra karma-bandhanah. Anyatra karma-bandhanah: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajnarthe, for Visnu, for Krsna, that is not karma, that is akarma. It does not produce, karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. In the Brahma-samhita it is said, "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three.
Prabhupada: That... Vikarma means..., karma means you act according to the injunction of the sastra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate the injunction of the sastra.
Devotee: Violate.
Prabhupada: Violate.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the sastra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities.
Reporter: Hm. That's the vikarma.
Prabhupada: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the sastra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. But generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities, no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyah suna (Sanskrit). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the sastras: illicit sex life. You can not indulge in sex life without marriage, that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the sastra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma, you're becoming bound up being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. Otherwise, beginning from ant, up to the Brahma, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma.
Reporter: Hm. Vi... But is it not like vasistham jnanam vijnanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Ah?
Reporter: Vasisthan karman vikarman? "Vi -- " is generally used as to... a sort of bhaktya.(?) To give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijnanam, jnanam vijnanam. Karman vikarman. So this a little, what is the root of the language? I don't...
Prabhupada: Jnanam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jnanam means theoretical knowledge. And vijnanam means practical knowledge. Jnanam vijnanam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajna. Yajnad bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajna. Yajnesa. In the Visnu Purana it is said, varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman, visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. If you act according to varnasrama, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Visnu. Visnur aradhyate.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupada: Nanyat tat-tosa-karanam. So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varnasrama. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varnasrama, that is animal society, everything is chaos. (some people talking aside)
Reporter: You want to ask anything?
Woman: No.
Guest: (aside:) (indistinct) ...Krsna first, and then you know what to do.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we are teaching this sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], just to surrender to Krsna. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But what happens that some people have a social dimension, social political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Krsna consciousness. But then it seems to me -- I'm just asking -- that we, when we are emphasizing this Krsna consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social political dimension. So how to bring this...
Prabhupada: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Krsna did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking?
Reporter: No, no, I'm not saying Krsna did not take... I'm just saying that it seems that He sometimes, it seems, that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough..., it is not clear enough -- and I'm not saying it's not there but it's not clear enough -- the social political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear.
Prabhupada: It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Krsna gives direction, that this is the business of the brahmana, this is the business of ksatriya. So politics is the business of the ksatriya. So if you act according to Krsna's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mala and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a ksatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaisya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Krsna is giving direction: "This is brahmana's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brahmana. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brahmana? Then there is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Krsna, they do not abide by the direction of Krsna. Still, they have become leaders. Then the whole thing is chaos.
Reporter: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now what we are, Ann and myself, we are publishing a magazine called Researchers.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: And John Temple(?) was here?
Devotee: John Temple(?) was here a few days ago, yes.
Prabhupada: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him.
Reporter: Yes, he was editor before.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking-Mahadeva was also in it -- but how we can bring this total understanding together? So when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first...
Prabhupada: We are presenting...
Reporter: ...they understand the way of communication.
Prabhupada: Yes. But we are asking all these students... When I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Krsna." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs)
Reporter: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupada: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpana-marjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly.
Reporter: In order to clear your heart you have to chant.
Prabhupada: That is it.
Reporter: Right.
Woman: What about meditating?
Prabhupada: This is the best medicine, meditation.
Woman: What about the other kind?
Prabhupada: When meditation, meditation, dhyana, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Krsna!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear.
Woman: What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them.
Devotee: But Krsna is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Krsna's taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Krsna consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Krsna consciousness.
Woman: Oh, I see.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Krsna is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (everyone laughs).
Reporter: No conflict.
Woman: I am not sure, I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean...
Prabhupada: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. That's why Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They'll support: this killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that (?). They want to kill. That's all. That is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But if you do not follow, at the same time you say you are not Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated -- I've asked so many Christians -- that "Why do you kill?" Christ said "Thou shalt not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretations. That is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shalt not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses?
Woman: But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it?
Prabhupada: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shalt not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it?
Reporter: True.
Prabhupada: Just see Arjuna -- you are talking of Arjuna -- before fighting, before killing so many things, he getting clarified. Ah? (Sanskrit) Just see, "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside:) Hm. Read that.
Pradyumna:
yady apy ete na pasyanti
lobhopahata-cetasah
kula-ksaya-krtam dosam
mitra-drohe ca patakam
katham na jneyam asmabhih
papad asman nivartitum
kula-ksaya-krtam dosam
prapasyadbhir janardana
[Bg. 1.37-38]
"O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?"
Prabhupada: He's thoroughly understanding-before killing. Not that "We have (indistinct) reason to kill." No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see. This is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church? Although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things. Why?
Reporter: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious...
Prabhupada: Life.
Reporter: ...experience in life.
Prabhupada: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how will you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply rubber-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets?
Reporter: Same as you were saying, Nehru was not a brahmana, but only because he was called brahmana. So...
Prabhupada: No, why Nehru? Everyone.
Reporter: Everyone.
Prabhupada: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a sudra. Kalau sudra-sambhavah.
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupada: But there is no disappointment. Krsna says,
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]
So even one is sudra, we can give him deliverance by this Krsna consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a sudra. But Krsna says mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh, even if you are lower than the sudra, te 'pi yanti param gatim. If he accepts Krsna, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become sudra. There is remedy also.
Reporter: Even the sudras can...
Prabhupada: Yes. Lower than sudra. Why sudra? Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-
Reporter: Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: Sankaracarya. They all accept Krsna. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. They accept it. So how can you defy all these acaryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense.
Reporter: But all these acaryas interpret in different, different ways.
Prabhupada: No. No.
Reporter: No?
Prabhupada: On the principle, they never... Just like Sankaracarya and Ramanujacarya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments on Bhagavad-gita. Sankaracarya, although he is impersonalist, he says narayanah parah avyaktat: Narayana is beyond this cosmic manifestation; He's transcendental. That means he says He's person. Narayana, as soon as Narayana, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in the spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy, he started the philosophy, brahma satyam jagan mithya.
Reporter: Brahma satyam jagan mithya.
Prabhupada: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithya. Sankaracarya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college, hospital... Never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithya, then why should we bother all these things?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So who is following Sankaracarya? And they say that "We are followers of Sankaracarya." And they are engaged. Sankaracarya follower means he must become first of all sannyasi, then talk anything else. So who is taking, going to do that?
Reporter: And all those Sankara Matha and Sankaracarya's various places in India, don't live as jagat was mithya. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, jagan mithya... We don't say jagan mithya.
Reporter: No.
Prabhupada: We Vaisnavas, why should I say jagan mithya? If God is true, what is created by Him, that is also true. Because Krsna says bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca, bhinna me prakrtir astadha [Bg. 7.4]. Me, "My." So why should I take Krsna's things as false? If Krsna is true, His things are also true. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Krsna, it can be used for Krsna's purpose. That is karma-yoga, bhakti-yoga. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Just like here is a microphone in the tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say "No, no, we are Krsna conscious, we cannot touch this material thing." We don't say that. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Everything has connection with Krsna, so why shall I call it as material? Parityaga. This is condemned by Rupa Gosvami,
prapancikataya buddhya
hari-sambandhi-vastunah
mumuksubhih parityago
vairagyam phalgu kathyate
The mumuksu, the Shankarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world.
Reporter: He who wants liberation.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Mumuksu.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mumuksu. So this mumuksu, they're giving up this material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari-sambandha.
Reporter: Yes, hari-sambandha.
Prabhupada: They do not know this art.
Reporter: Krsna connection, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Now people know only "French Connection," they're forgetting Krsna connection. (laughs) Yes, very true.
Prabhupada: But we see everything has got Krsna connection. Therefore we utilize it for Krsna. Just like you're talking about Krsna, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Krsna's service. Why should I give it up? Because the airplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. Every year I'm wandering all over the world, twice, thrice. Because if you use airplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Krsna consciousness movement, why shall I give it up? It is mithya. Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach, very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairagya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk things under the tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree nobody will come to me. (everyone laughs) So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy.
anasaktasya visayan
yatharham upayunjatah
nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe
yuktam vairagyam ucyate
Yukta-vairagya. After all, you have to practice vairagya. Not under attachment. But in connection with Krsna, nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithya, how do they consider mithya? Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithya, but they are accepting it, under a different name -- "Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital..." They're coming to the mithya platform, under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithya why you are starting a school?
Reporter: Yes. Only way is to sannyasa.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is not sannyasi business. For starting school the government is there, public is there. Why you... That means brahma satyam you could not understand; you are coming to the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satyam. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So, people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this, give me some candana." "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithya, why you are coming again to this mithya platform?
Reporter: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.
Prabhupada: Detachment, that is required.
Reporter: Anasakta.
Prabhupada: Yes, detachment and jnana. Jnana-vairagya.
Reporter: Hm. The jnana-vairagya.
Prabhupada: This is the real achievement of human life, that jnana-vairagya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah [SB 1.2.7]. Ah? Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty asu vairagyam. Janayaty asu vairagyam. Just like these boys.
Reporter: Quick detachment.
Prabhupada: Ah? Immediate...
Reporter: Instant, instant, asu vairagya.
Prabhupada: Asu vairagya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke, I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty asu vairagyam. They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (everyone laughs) This is vairagya. They do not want anything except Krsna. They do not want anything except Krsna. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they've got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, the Western countries. How they have given up? Jnana-vairagya. Janayaty asu.
Reporter: Vairagya, yes.
Prabhupada: Asu, "very immediate."
Reporter: Hm. Instant.
Prabhupada: Instant.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So bhakti-yoga is so powerful. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah, janayaty asu vairagyam... [SB 1.2.7].
Reporter: Is this in the Gita, in Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: No, in Bhagavatam.
Reporter: Bhagavatam, yes.
Prabhupada: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up.
Reporter: But he was not in power or position.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi, "You have so much respect now, now you have got sva-raja, you give up this business, let us preach Bhagavad-gita, people will hear you." Before starting this movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.
Reporter: But he was praying, he was going to pray Hare Krsna. He was devotee.
Prabhupada: He was for political emancipation.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupada: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that...
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupada: ...these politicians, they do not grow vairagya, even up to the point of death.
Reporter: Yes, true.
Prabhupada: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Pantha(?)... They stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither did they know that there is necessity of vairagya. But Vedic philosophy says... All the acaryas, they're all vairagis, either Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, they're all sannyasis. Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All vairagis. Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairagi. Even Lord Buddha, vairagi. This is required, but where is the vairagya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairagya. This is the first stage, vairagya, bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra [SB 11.2.42].
anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmady-anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
[Brs. 1.1.11]
That is sarva-dharman parityajya. This is vairagya.
Reporter: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupada: Sarva-dharman parityajya means vairagya [Bg. 18.66].
Reporter: Yes, means vairagya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise we are embarrassed with so many dharmas. Social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brahmana-dharma, sudra-dharma, so many. Therefore Krsna says sarva-dharma.
Reporter: All of them.
Prabhupada: All give up. This is vairagya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya [SB 1.2.12]. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. The bhakti-yoga means, jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana and vairagya there must be. Can you find that verse?
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]
Pradyumna:
tac chraddadhana munayo
jnana-vairagya-yuktaya
pasyanty atmani catmanam...
[SB 1.2.12]
Prabhupada: Pas... Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana-vairagya... Without jnana-vairagya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then?
Pradyumna: Pasyanty atmani catmanam...
Prabhupada: Ah.
Pradyumna: ...bhaktya sruta-grhitaya.
Prabhupada: Bhaktya sruta-grhitaya. Sruta-grhitaya. By hearing from authority. Sruta. Grhitaya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. This is the process. Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya, pasyanty atmanam atmani, sruta-grhitaya, bhaktya sruta-grhitaya [SB 1.2.12]. This is the process.
Reporter: By devotion, by listening you receive and see the self...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...within the self.
Prabhupada: Yes, within the self.
Reporter: Atmani atmanam. [break]
Prabhupada: What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vasudeva, or the Personality of Godhead..."
Prabhupada: This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Never says by jnana or karma you'll get.
Reporter: Only bhakti, yes.
Prabhupada: Go on.
Pradyumna: "...who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramatma is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramatma realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings. The karmis, the jnanis, the yogis and the devotees. The karmis are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalist are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person."
Reporter: Who are those three, jnanis...?
Prabhupada: Jnanis, yogis...
Reporter: And karm...
Prabhupada: Karmis, jnanis, yogis...
Reporter: And bhaktas.
Prabhupada: So karmis are not transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jnanis, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalists.
Reporter: Yeah. So jnanis are third class.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jnanis are...
Reporter: Why?
Prabhupada: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.
Reporter: I see. They're intellectual.
Prabhupada: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupada: Aham brahmasmi. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramatma, Visnu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Krsna. This is the result of bhakti.
Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence.
Prabhupada: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.
Reporter: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhakta?
Prabhupada: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee.
Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhari."
Reporter: Hm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper?
Reporter: Researchers.
Prabhupada: Researchers.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jnanis, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. When one gets the brahma-jnana, brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20], and identifies himself, aham brahmasmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannatma: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na socati na kanksati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then, mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. After being brahma-bhuta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, suddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kanistha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikari, not to remain in the lowest stage, kanistha-adhikari.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too, each.
Prabhupada: How long you are here, in London?
Reporter: I have been on and off for two, three years.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Reporter: And I will stay two or three more years.
Prabhupada: So, you are family man?
Reporter: Yes, this is my wife.
Prabhupada: You're married here.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Children?
Reporter: One child.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Reporter: And we have called our child Mukti.
Prabhupada: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing, (everyone laughs). Rupa Gosvami says bhukti-mukti-sprha yavat pisaci hrdi vartate. Manifested..., that so long the pisaci... Pisaci, you know?
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: The pisaci of bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmi's business, "I shall enjoy."
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as pisaci.
Reporter: Really?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Ah, pisaci means witch.
Prabhupada: Bhukti-mukti-pisaci (etc.)
Reporter: "As long as...?"
Prabhupada: "So long these two pisacis are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti?"
Reporter: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti and then you can...
Prabhupada: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained.
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupada: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
So a bhakta is already brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's already mukta. Just like Bilvamangala Thakura says,
bhaktis tvayi sthiratara bhagavan yadi syad
daivena nah phalati divya-kisora-murtih
muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman
and dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah
Dharmartha-kama, this is karmi's position. And moksa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, My Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this this dharmartha-kama, they're at my command." Simply by bhakti. The people are after dharma, artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], but these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah.
Devotee: Prasadam.
Prabhupada: Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asyopajayate. (Guest and devotees talk in background.)
Reporter: (aside:) Please... But calling krsnarpanam, and calling mukti and bhukti pisaci is a rather strong expression. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti.
Reporter: Yes, yes, they can.
Prabhupada: (laughs)
Reporter: The attachment is mukti, materialistic attachment, and bhukti... [break] I was very impressed with the account, how...
Prabhupada: This will be New Gokula.
Reporter: New Gokula. Hm, hm, it's very good.
Prabhupada: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvipa, New Jagannatha Puri, New Dvaraka...
Pradyumna: New Gaya...
Prabhupada: ...New Gaya, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Krsna consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.
Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.
Prabhupada: Therefore they're mudhas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So India cannot be happy being guided by the duskrtino mudhah naradhamah. It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi That "You are..." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But that... What Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request?
Prabhupada: No.
Reporter: No. Hm.
Prabhupada: But it did not go to his hand-hands of his secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister."
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Reporter: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved?
Prabhupada: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal -- to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. I agree.
Prabhupada: The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principles -- from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that.
Devotee: (to guests:) Some ksira?
Reporter: Oh!
Prabhupada: That's all? Don't get more?
Reporter: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: They actually, by destroying the Manchester millionaires, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmadabad millionaires. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one rupee per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth -- one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. Now same thing for thirty rupees.
Prabhupada: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmadabad capitalists. That's all.
Reporter: Hm. Yes.
Prabhupada: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. Very true.
Prabhupada: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness.
Reporter: Quite true. And therefore, nothing is working.
Prabhupada: No. (pause)
Reporter: I'm not going by car, as you said. (everyone laughs)
Prabhupada: Are you not plucking your hairs?
Reporter: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair.
Devotee: The whole head, you pull your...?
Reporter: Whole head, yes. It's an extreme form of a...
Devotee: Austerity.
Reporter: Ah?
Devotee: It's an austerity.
Reporter: Yes. And then I came to... I left it, and came to Benares, and...
Prabhupada: So when you joined this (indistinct-Sarboddha?) movement? At Benares?
Reporter: Yes. I was meet... I met Vinoba Bhave, and...
Prabhupada: He's still living?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is his philosophy?
Reporter: His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes, in the village, and not going to the city. This is his principle, on the economy scale. And on the spiritual end, religious, he's a brahma-vidya. He's seeking brahma-vidya. And he has in Padnab(?) Brahma-vidya Mandir.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: So he is... He is a follower of Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: Mukti, bhukti.
Reporter: Ah?
Prabhupada: Mukti.
Reporter: Mukti, yes.
Prabhupada: Pisaci.
Reporter: Hm? (everyone laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) Bhukti-mukti-pisaci.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms." Bhukti-ism and mukti-ism. Therefore Krsna says, "Give up all these isms. Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love.
Reporter: Yes. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Accha.
Reporter: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) (end)
Prabhupada: Just like if one has got money, he cannot... He can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly himsa, it is used for... Just like in Manu-samhita it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also himsa, to get him a man hanged. But Manu-samhita says that this kind of himsa is necessary. Because the man who's committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, in his next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to sastra, himsa..., ahimsa is good, but when there is necessity, himsa is also good.
Reporter: Yes. When there is right himsa, then it becomes a right action.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: And therefore it is no more himsa. But when the devilish...
Prabhupada: And actually it is not himsa.
Reporter: Actually it is not himsa, exactly, but...
Prabhupada: Just like father gives a slap.
Reporter: Yeah, it is not himsa.
Prabhupada: It is not himsa.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Similarly, the himsa, so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, that is not himsa. That is love.
Reporter: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Krsna...
Prabhupada: Then it is himsa.
Reporter: Yeah. Then it is himsa. And I am against that himsa which is not directed by Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are all living in, nuclear age where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Krsna is...
Prabhupada: That is himsa.
Reporter: That is himsa.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean...
Prabhupada: That you have understood. That is my point.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, is not himsa.
Reporter: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's...
Prabhupada: The same example as I gave, gave you. That when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not himsa. It is doing good to him.
Reporter: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Krsna.
Prabhupada: No... King is... King means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Krsna's representative, nara-devata. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Krsna. Just like Krsna's business is paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8].
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful.
Reporter: But today's kings...
Prabhupada: Today's no... I'm speaking... Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupada: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. This catur-varna. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brahmana, whether he's acting as a brahmana. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as sudra, but he's claiming to be brahmana.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Isn't it?
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king, it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "Doctor, Medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brahmana, he must act as brahmana. If one is claiming to be ksatriya, he must act as a ksatriya. Now, what are the qualifications of brahmana, what are the qualifications of ksatriya, they are there already in Bhagavad-gita.
Reporter: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmena idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. By quality. Guna-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a sudra is employed, is engaged as a sudra, a vaisya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaisya. Vaisya, it is said that krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Now the vaisyas, they are in the share market speculating.
Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaisyas. (laughs) Exactly.
Prabhupada: Industrialists. Industrialists means sudras. So if they're sudras, why they should claim as...
Reporter: Vaisyas.
Prabhupada: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaisya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaisyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.
Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly brahmanas. Nehru. He is brahmana, but what did he do as a brahmana? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.
Reporter: Hm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Krsna consciousness, and the vaisyas are no more following that duty...
Prabhupada: This is, this is... This world is material world. And (aside:) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad. (desires woman guest to sit comfortably)
Devotee: Would you like a chair?
Woman guest: No, it's okay.
Reporter: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva-dharma, their true self...
Prabhupada: That anyone can do at any moment, any moment.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupada: Any moment.
Reporter: Yeah. But then what is the action for the... Practical action, practical...
Prabhupada: Practical action... If you give up... If a brahmana gives up sva-dharma, then it becomes a varna-sankara.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Kula-dharma, what is that in the Bhagavad-gita? Jati-dharma, kula-dharma. So they produce varna-sankara. If one does not follow the jati-dharma, the kula-dharma, then he comes to the category of varna-sankara. Sankaro narakayaiva. So when... A person born in brahmana family not acting as a brahmana, he's varna-sankara. So when there are number of people from the varna-sankara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakayaiva. Sankaro narakayaiva. What is that? Read that.
Pradyumna:
kula-ksaye pranasyanti
kula-dharmah sanatanah
dharme naste kulam krtsnam
adharmo 'bhibhavaty uta
"With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice."
adharmabhibhavat krsna
pradusyanti kula-striyah
strisu dustasu varsneya
jayate varna-sankarah
[Bg. 1.40]
Prabhupada: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gita. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jati-dharma, and creating varna-sankara... Varna-sankara, just like brahmana, ksatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process dasa-vidha-samskara. So the first samskara is garbhadhana. So in this Bhagavata it is said by Narada that as soon as garbhadhana-samskara is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes sudra. So who is observing the garbhadhana-samskara? Nobody.
Reporter: (laughs) Nobody.
Prabhupada: Therefore, kalau sudra-sambhavah. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as sudra. No brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. All sudra, or less than sudra.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Pancavan.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali-yuga. Mandah sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutah [SB 1.1.10]. They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Krsna, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Krsna, why Krsna should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Krsna was there on this planet, there was Kuruksetra battle. You know better than me.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, if big, big scholars say, when Krsna says that man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji... [Bg. 18.65]. The scholars say, "It is not to Krsna." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. The leaders... Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jati-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varna-sankara.
Reporter: Yes. Everybody is varna-sankara.
Prabhupada: Therefore the only remedy is
harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
This is the only, this Krsna consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the...
Reporter: Hm. But what...?
Prabhupada: It is most scientific.
Reporter: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma-yoga, the action, to transform the society, bring back into the...
Prabhupada: Yes, the yoga in its preliminary stage is karma-yoga. Yoga, yoga means connecting.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So karma, when you...
Reporter: Yoga karma sukhosanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Akarma sukhosanam.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you are addicted to karma.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupada: So if you bring bhakti, karma-misra-bhakti, that is called karma-yoga. Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jnana. When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jnana-misra-bhakti or jnana-yoga. So, this things are there. Just like karma-yoga. Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam [Bg. 9.27]. This is karma-yoga. You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Krsna says yat karosi, never mind, even if you are a thief. Your business is stealing-steal. Yat karosi means that includes everything. Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu.
Reporter: Ma phalesu.
Prabhupada: This is karma-yoga -- when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Krsna, that is karma-yoga.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah, but karmany evadhikaras te...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: This is the, the point that...
Prabhupada: Yes, you have to work.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupada: See?
Reporter: But... So... If our responsibility is to act without attachment for the result, I accept, I agree with it.
Prabhupada: But Krsna says that purottama manah (?). The result must be there.
Reporter: Yes. But that should be...
Prabhupada: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot...
Reporter: Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore you must be giving to someone, to who is the perfect person who can take it. That is Krsna.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah.
Prabhupada: So yat karosi, that is the... Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Krsna. Therefore it's bhakti-yoga, karma-yoga, whatever you...
Reporter: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: But Krsna is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight?
Prabhupada: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kuruksetra.
Reporter: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our...
Devotee: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do?
Prabhupada: The Krsna's representative will tell you. Krsna is not there, but Krsna's representative is there. So you have to ask the Krsna's representative.
Reporter: So that's why I have come to you...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...to ask you.
Prabhupada: If you think we are representative of Krsna, that is good. (everyone laughs)
Reporter: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: They're thinking, "And to become Krsna's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult.
Reporter: It is not difficult.
Prabhupada: Because Krsna... Who is Krsna's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, that
amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa
yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa
[Cc. Madhya 7.128]
You understand Bengali?
Reporter: No.
Prabhupada: He says that "By My order, you become a guru." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ajnaya, order?" That yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]': "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Krsna has spoken." That's all. What is the difficulty? If we speak what Krsna has spoken, exactly... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita As It Is, without my interpretation, no nonsense. No. Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that here is Bhagavan, Krsna. There is no more superior person or authority than Krsna. So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. We are saying the same thing. Krsna said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Krsna."
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: "Don't bother with any other things." Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So we are teaching them, that always think of Krsna, always become devotee of Krsna, always offer obeisances to Krsna. So what is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Krsna's representative. Who is representative? What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Krsna and take Krsna's book Bhagavad-gita and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Krsna has spoken. He speaks his own words of the authority of Krsna.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad-gita? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy-speak. Why you take advantage of Bhagavad-gita? But that is going on. They take advantage of Bhagavad-gita and speak their all nonsense things. They're not representative of Krsna. Krsna's representative is he who exactly speaks what Krsna has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Krsna's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Krsna.
Reporter: Hm. No, but... Can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Krsna is speaking in a context of a clear defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us.
Prabhupada: Why not available?
Reporter: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the...
Prabhupada: Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66].
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now, dharma means occupation. Dharma is not translated as religion.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupada: This is wrong translation. Dharma means occupation.
Reporter: Activity?
Prabhupada: Activity, occupation.
Reporter: All activities.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Krsna says, "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it..."
Reporter: But He's saying sarva-dharman parityajya... [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...not sarva-karman parityajya.
Prabhupada: Dharman means karman. Dharma means activity. Just like a brahmana...
Reporter: But activity...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) -- just a minute -- how he can understand the brahma? Guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13].
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So this dharma, brahmana-dharma, ksatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brahmana, he's practicing, samo damas titiksa arjava jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhava-jam. Ksatriya-karma svabhava-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brahmana's executing the karma of brahmana, he's dharma.
Reporter: Yes, but then karmany evadhikaras te...
Prabhupada: Karmani means that you are as you are...
Reporter: No, no (indistinct) evadhikaras te. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Anyway...
Reporter: 'Cause activity...
Prabhupada: Dharma means karma. Dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42].
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is karma. So brahmana's activity means brahmana. So that activity is karma. Ah? Yajana yajana pathana pathana dana pratigraha, these are brahmanas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Ksatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the ksatriya's karma. These the brahmana's karma. These are the, eh, vaisya's karma. These are the sudra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brahmana, you have to act as a brahmana.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: You are ksatriya, you have to act as a ksatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock offering mangala-arati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Krsna mantra, then taking the class and taking prasadam, then going to outside for performing sankirtana, to distributing books. All day, twenty-four hours karma. So therefore outsiders, they can not understand, that "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing, what kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti. They think bhakti means, just like "Close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that.
Reporter: Bhakti is the quality...
Prabhupada: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was giving the certificate-bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity. What is the quality of it. Yes, how you can live without being active? You are living being. That's not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of our activity. That makes one karma-yogi, jnana-yogi, dhyana-yogi, bhakti-yogi. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing.
Reporter: Hm. Can I ask you another...
Prabhupada: Therefore it is called karma-misra-bhakti. It is not unalloyed bhakti.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupada: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma.
Reporter: There's no karma.
Prabhupada: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Prabhupada: Ah, akarma.
Reporter: Sannyasa.
Prabhupada: No, more than akarma.
Reporter: Sannyasa?
Prabhupada: More than a... Sannyasi is akarma, yes. Sannyasi is also not akarma. Sannyasa means... That is also described in Bhagavad-gita. Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah [Bg. 6.1]. That is also karma. Karyam karma karoti yah sa sannyasi. "It is my duty" -- on this principle when one works, he is sannyasi. He does not work for himself, he works for Krsna. And that is sannyasi. Anasritah karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anasritah karma-phalam. Karyam: it is my duty. Karyam. Karma karot... Karma karoti yah. That is karma. Sa sannyasi. So how you can say in sannyasa there is no karma? Karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Krsna, to satisfy Krsna, anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama [Cc. Madhya 19.167].
Reporter: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma?
Prabhupada: Akarma means that does not produce another karma. Or sometimes akarma means laziness.
Reporter: No, no, (laughs), in the sense of Gita.
Prabhupada: Karmano hy api boddhavyam. So akarma means, that is bhaktya. Akarma means, just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra karma-bandhanah. Anyatra karma-bandhanah: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajnarthe, for Visnu, for Krsna, that is not karma, that is akarma. It does not produce, karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. In the Brahma-samhita it is said, "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three.
Prabhupada: That... Vikarma means..., karma means you act according to the injunction of the sastra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate the injunction of the sastra.
Devotee: Violate.
Prabhupada: Violate.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the sastra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities.
Reporter: Hm. That's the vikarma.
Prabhupada: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the sastra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. But generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities, no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyah suna (Sanskrit). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the sastras: illicit sex life. You can not indulge in sex life without marriage, that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the sastra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma, you're becoming bound up being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. Otherwise, beginning from ant, up to the Brahma, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma.
Reporter: Hm. Vi... But is it not like vasistham jnanam vijnanam. (?)
Prabhupada: Ah?
Reporter: Vasisthan karman vikarman? "Vi -- " is generally used as to... a sort of bhaktya.(?) To give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijnanam, jnanam vijnanam. Karman vikarman. So this a little, what is the root of the language? I don't...
Prabhupada: Jnanam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jnanam means theoretical knowledge. And vijnanam means practical knowledge. Jnanam vijnanam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajna. Yajnad bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajna. Yajnesa. In the Visnu Purana it is said, varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman, visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. If you act according to varnasrama, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Visnu. Visnur aradhyate.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupada: Nanyat tat-tosa-karanam. So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varnasrama. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varnasrama, that is animal society, everything is chaos. (some people talking aside)
Reporter: You want to ask anything?
Woman: No.
Guest: (aside:) (indistinct) ...Krsna first, and then you know what to do.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we are teaching this sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], just to surrender to Krsna. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But what happens that some people have a social dimension, social political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Krsna consciousness. But then it seems to me -- I'm just asking -- that we, when we are emphasizing this Krsna consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social political dimension. So how to bring this...
Prabhupada: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Krsna did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking?
Reporter: No, no, I'm not saying Krsna did not take... I'm just saying that it seems that He sometimes, it seems, that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough..., it is not clear enough -- and I'm not saying it's not there but it's not clear enough -- the social political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear.
Prabhupada: It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Krsna gives direction, that this is the business of the brahmana, this is the business of ksatriya. So politics is the business of the ksatriya. So if you act according to Krsna's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mala and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a ksatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaisya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Krsna is giving direction: "This is brahmana's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brahmana. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brahmana? Then there is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Krsna, they do not abide by the direction of Krsna. Still, they have become leaders. Then the whole thing is chaos.
Reporter: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now what we are, Ann and myself, we are publishing a magazine called Researchers.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: And John Temple(?) was here?
Devotee: John Temple(?) was here a few days ago, yes.
Prabhupada: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him.
Reporter: Yes, he was editor before.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking-Mahadeva was also in it -- but how we can bring this total understanding together? So when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first...
Prabhupada: We are presenting...
Reporter: ...they understand the way of communication.
Prabhupada: Yes. But we are asking all these students... When I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Krsna." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs)
Reporter: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupada: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpana-marjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly.
Reporter: In order to clear your heart you have to chant.
Prabhupada: That is it.
Reporter: Right.
Woman: What about meditating?
Prabhupada: This is the best medicine, meditation.
Woman: What about the other kind?
Prabhupada: When meditation, meditation, dhyana, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Krsna!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear.
Woman: What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them.
Devotee: But Krsna is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Krsna's taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Krsna consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Krsna consciousness.
Woman: Oh, I see.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Krsna is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (everyone laughs).
Reporter: No conflict.
Woman: I am not sure, I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean...
Prabhupada: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. That's why Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They'll support: this killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that (?). They want to kill. That's all. That is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But if you do not follow, at the same time you say you are not Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated -- I've asked so many Christians -- that "Why do you kill?" Christ said "Thou shalt not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretations. That is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shalt not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses?
Woman: But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it?
Prabhupada: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shalt not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it?
Reporter: True.
Prabhupada: Just see Arjuna -- you are talking of Arjuna -- before fighting, before killing so many things, he getting clarified. Ah? (Sanskrit) Just see, "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside:) Hm. Read that.
Pradyumna:
yady apy ete na pasyanti
lobhopahata-cetasah
kula-ksaya-krtam dosam
mitra-drohe ca patakam
katham na jneyam asmabhih
papad asman nivartitum
kula-ksaya-krtam dosam
prapasyadbhir janardana
[Bg. 1.37-38]
"O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?"
Prabhupada: He's thoroughly understanding-before killing. Not that "We have (indistinct) reason to kill." No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see. This is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church? Although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things. Why?
Reporter: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious...
Prabhupada: Life.
Reporter: ...experience in life.
Prabhupada: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how will you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply rubber-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets?
Reporter: Same as you were saying, Nehru was not a brahmana, but only because he was called brahmana. So...
Prabhupada: No, why Nehru? Everyone.
Reporter: Everyone.
Prabhupada: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a sudra. Kalau sudra-sambhavah.
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupada: But there is no disappointment. Krsna says,
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]
So even one is sudra, we can give him deliverance by this Krsna consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a sudra. But Krsna says mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh, even if you are lower than the sudra, te 'pi yanti param gatim. If he accepts Krsna, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become sudra. There is remedy also.
Reporter: Even the sudras can...
Prabhupada: Yes. Lower than sudra. Why sudra? Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-
Reporter: Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: Sankaracarya. They all accept Krsna. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. They accept it. So how can you defy all these acaryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense.
Reporter: But all these acaryas interpret in different, different ways.
Prabhupada: No. No.
Reporter: No?
Prabhupada: On the principle, they never... Just like Sankaracarya and Ramanujacarya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments on Bhagavad-gita. Sankaracarya, although he is impersonalist, he says narayanah parah avyaktat: Narayana is beyond this cosmic manifestation; He's transcendental. That means he says He's person. Narayana, as soon as Narayana, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in the spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy, he started the philosophy, brahma satyam jagan mithya.
Reporter: Brahma satyam jagan mithya.
Prabhupada: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithya. Sankaracarya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college, hospital... Never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithya, then why should we bother all these things?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So who is following Sankaracarya? And they say that "We are followers of Sankaracarya." And they are engaged. Sankaracarya follower means he must become first of all sannyasi, then talk anything else. So who is taking, going to do that?
Reporter: And all those Sankara Matha and Sankaracarya's various places in India, don't live as jagat was mithya. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, jagan mithya... We don't say jagan mithya.
Reporter: No.
Prabhupada: We Vaisnavas, why should I say jagan mithya? If God is true, what is created by Him, that is also true. Because Krsna says bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca, bhinna me prakrtir astadha [Bg. 7.4]. Me, "My." So why should I take Krsna's things as false? If Krsna is true, His things are also true. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Krsna, it can be used for Krsna's purpose. That is karma-yoga, bhakti-yoga. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Just like here is a microphone in the tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say "No, no, we are Krsna conscious, we cannot touch this material thing." We don't say that. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Everything has connection with Krsna, so why shall I call it as material? Parityaga. This is condemned by Rupa Gosvami,
prapancikataya buddhya
hari-sambandhi-vastunah
mumuksubhih parityago
vairagyam phalgu kathyate
The mumuksu, the Shankarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world.
Reporter: He who wants liberation.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Mumuksu.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mumuksu. So this mumuksu, they're giving up this material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari-sambandha.
Reporter: Yes, hari-sambandha.
Prabhupada: They do not know this art.
Reporter: Krsna connection, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Now people know only "French Connection," they're forgetting Krsna connection. (laughs) Yes, very true.
Prabhupada: But we see everything has got Krsna connection. Therefore we utilize it for Krsna. Just like you're talking about Krsna, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Krsna's service. Why should I give it up? Because the airplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. Every year I'm wandering all over the world, twice, thrice. Because if you use airplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Krsna consciousness movement, why shall I give it up? It is mithya. Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach, very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairagya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk things under the tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree nobody will come to me. (everyone laughs) So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy.
anasaktasya visayan
yatharham upayunjatah
nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe
yuktam vairagyam ucyate
Yukta-vairagya. After all, you have to practice vairagya. Not under attachment. But in connection with Krsna, nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithya, how do they consider mithya? Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithya, but they are accepting it, under a different name -- "Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital..." They're coming to the mithya platform, under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithya why you are starting a school?
Reporter: Yes. Only way is to sannyasa.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is not sannyasi business. For starting school the government is there, public is there. Why you... That means brahma satyam you could not understand; you are coming to the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satyam. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So, people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this, give me some candana." "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithya, why you are coming again to this mithya platform?
Reporter: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.
Prabhupada: Detachment, that is required.
Reporter: Anasakta.
Prabhupada: Yes, detachment and jnana. Jnana-vairagya.
Reporter: Hm. The jnana-vairagya.
Prabhupada: This is the real achievement of human life, that jnana-vairagya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah [SB 1.2.7]. Ah? Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty asu vairagyam. Janayaty asu vairagyam. Just like these boys.
Reporter: Quick detachment.
Prabhupada: Ah? Immediate...
Reporter: Instant, instant, asu vairagya.
Prabhupada: Asu vairagya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke, I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty asu vairagyam. They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (everyone laughs) This is vairagya. They do not want anything except Krsna. They do not want anything except Krsna. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they've got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, the Western countries. How they have given up? Jnana-vairagya. Janayaty asu.
Reporter: Vairagya, yes.
Prabhupada: Asu, "very immediate."
Reporter: Hm. Instant.
Prabhupada: Instant.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: So bhakti-yoga is so powerful. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah, janayaty asu vairagyam... [SB 1.2.7].
Reporter: Is this in the Gita, in Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: No, in Bhagavatam.
Reporter: Bhagavatam, yes.
Prabhupada: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up.
Reporter: But he was not in power or position.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi, "You have so much respect now, now you have got sva-raja, you give up this business, let us preach Bhagavad-gita, people will hear you." Before starting this movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.
Reporter: But he was praying, he was going to pray Hare Krsna. He was devotee.
Prabhupada: He was for political emancipation.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupada: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that...
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupada: ...these politicians, they do not grow vairagya, even up to the point of death.
Reporter: Yes, true.
Prabhupada: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Pantha(?)... They stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither did they know that there is necessity of vairagya. But Vedic philosophy says... All the acaryas, they're all vairagis, either Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, they're all sannyasis. Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All vairagis. Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairagi. Even Lord Buddha, vairagi. This is required, but where is the vairagya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairagya. This is the first stage, vairagya, bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra [SB 11.2.42].
anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmady-anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
[Brs. 1.1.11]
That is sarva-dharman parityajya. This is vairagya.
Reporter: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupada: Sarva-dharman parityajya means vairagya [Bg. 18.66].
Reporter: Yes, means vairagya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise we are embarrassed with so many dharmas. Social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brahmana-dharma, sudra-dharma, so many. Therefore Krsna says sarva-dharma.
Reporter: All of them.
Prabhupada: All give up. This is vairagya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya [SB 1.2.12]. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. The bhakti-yoga means, jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana and vairagya there must be. Can you find that verse?
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]
Pradyumna:
tac chraddadhana munayo
jnana-vairagya-yuktaya
pasyanty atmani catmanam...
[SB 1.2.12]
Prabhupada: Pas... Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana-vairagya... Without jnana-vairagya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then?
Pradyumna: Pasyanty atmani catmanam...
Prabhupada: Ah.
Pradyumna: ...bhaktya sruta-grhitaya.
Prabhupada: Bhaktya sruta-grhitaya. Sruta-grhitaya. By hearing from authority. Sruta. Grhitaya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. This is the process. Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya, pasyanty atmanam atmani, sruta-grhitaya, bhaktya sruta-grhitaya [SB 1.2.12]. This is the process.
Reporter: By devotion, by listening you receive and see the self...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: ...within the self.
Prabhupada: Yes, within the self.
Reporter: Atmani atmanam. [break]
Prabhupada: What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vasudeva, or the Personality of Godhead..."
Prabhupada: This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Never says by jnana or karma you'll get.
Reporter: Only bhakti, yes.
Prabhupada: Go on.
Pradyumna: "...who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramatma is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramatma realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings. The karmis, the jnanis, the yogis and the devotees. The karmis are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalist are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person."
Reporter: Who are those three, jnanis...?
Prabhupada: Jnanis, yogis...
Reporter: And karm...
Prabhupada: Karmis, jnanis, yogis...
Reporter: And bhaktas.
Prabhupada: So karmis are not transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jnanis, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalists.
Reporter: Yeah. So jnanis are third class.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jnanis are...
Reporter: Why?
Prabhupada: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.
Reporter: I see. They're intellectual.
Prabhupada: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupada: Aham brahmasmi. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramatma, Visnu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Krsna. This is the result of bhakti.
Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence.
Prabhupada: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.
Reporter: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhakta?
Prabhupada: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee.
Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhari."
Reporter: Hm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper?
Reporter: Researchers.
Prabhupada: Researchers.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jnanis, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. When one gets the brahma-jnana, brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20], and identifies himself, aham brahmasmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannatma: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na socati na kanksati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then, mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. After being brahma-bhuta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, suddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kanistha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikari, not to remain in the lowest stage, kanistha-adhikari.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too, each.
Prabhupada: How long you are here, in London?
Reporter: I have been on and off for two, three years.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Reporter: And I will stay two or three more years.
Prabhupada: So, you are family man?
Reporter: Yes, this is my wife.
Prabhupada: You're married here.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Children?
Reporter: One child.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Reporter: And we have called our child Mukti.
Prabhupada: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing, (everyone laughs). Rupa Gosvami says bhukti-mukti-sprha yavat pisaci hrdi vartate. Manifested..., that so long the pisaci... Pisaci, you know?
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: The pisaci of bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmi's business, "I shall enjoy."
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as pisaci.
Reporter: Really?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Ah, pisaci means witch.
Prabhupada: Bhukti-mukti-pisaci (etc.)
Reporter: "As long as...?"
Prabhupada: "So long these two pisacis are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti?"
Reporter: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Reporter: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti and then you can...
Prabhupada: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained.
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupada: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
So a bhakta is already brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's already mukta. Just like Bilvamangala Thakura says,
bhaktis tvayi sthiratara bhagavan yadi syad
daivena nah phalati divya-kisora-murtih
muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman
and dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah
Dharmartha-kama, this is karmi's position. And moksa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, My Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this this dharmartha-kama, they're at my command." Simply by bhakti. The people are after dharma, artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], but these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah.
Devotee: Prasadam.
Prabhupada: Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asyopajayate. (Guest and devotees talk in background.)
Reporter: (aside:) Please... But calling krsnarpanam, and calling mukti and bhukti pisaci is a rather strong expression. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti.
Reporter: Yes, yes, they can.
Prabhupada: (laughs)
Reporter: The attachment is mukti, materialistic attachment, and bhukti... [break] I was very impressed with the account, how...
Prabhupada: This will be New Gokula.
Reporter: New Gokula. Hm, hm, it's very good.
Prabhupada: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvipa, New Jagannatha Puri, New Dvaraka...
Pradyumna: New Gaya...
Prabhupada: ...New Gaya, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Krsna consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.
Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.
Prabhupada: Therefore they're mudhas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So India cannot be happy being guided by the duskrtino mudhah naradhamah. It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi That "You are..." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But that... What Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request?
Prabhupada: No.
Reporter: No. Hm.
Prabhupada: But it did not go to his hand-hands of his secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister."
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Reporter: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved?
Prabhupada: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal -- to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. I agree.
Prabhupada: The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principles -- from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that.
Devotee: (to guests:) Some ksira?
Reporter: Oh!
Prabhupada: That's all? Don't get more?
Reporter: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: They actually, by destroying the Manchester millionaires, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmadabad millionaires. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one rupee per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth -- one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. Now same thing for thirty rupees.
Prabhupada: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmadabad capitalists. That's all.
Reporter: Hm. Yes.
Prabhupada: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. Very true.
Prabhupada: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness.
Reporter: Quite true. And therefore, nothing is working.
Prabhupada: No. (pause)
Reporter: I'm not going by car, as you said. (everyone laughs)
Prabhupada: Are you not plucking your hairs?
Reporter: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair.
Devotee: The whole head, you pull your...?
Reporter: Whole head, yes. It's an extreme form of a...
Devotee: Austerity.
Reporter: Ah?
Devotee: It's an austerity.
Reporter: Yes. And then I came to... I left it, and came to Benares, and...
Prabhupada: So when you joined this (indistinct-Sarboddha?) movement? At Benares?
Reporter: Yes. I was meet... I met Vinoba Bhave, and...
Prabhupada: He's still living?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is his philosophy?
Reporter: His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes, in the village, and not going to the city. This is his principle, on the economy scale. And on the spiritual end, religious, he's a brahma-vidya. He's seeking brahma-vidya. And he has in Padnab(?) Brahma-vidya Mandir.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Reporter: So he is... He is a follower of Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: Mukti, bhukti.
Reporter: Ah?
Prabhupada: Mukti.
Reporter: Mukti, yes.
Prabhupada: Pisaci.
Reporter: Hm? (everyone laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) Bhukti-mukti-pisaci.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms." Bhukti-ism and mukti-ism. Therefore Krsna says, "Give up all these isms. Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love.
Reporter: Yes. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Accha.
Reporter: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973,
London
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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