Prabhupada: ...defect of the
Western country is practically there is no social structure. The father, mother,
they divorce, and the children become careless. Most cases this is the
defect.Director: Happens, yes.
Prabhupada: I have seen many of my students, their family, whole family disrupt on account of father and mother, even in old age, divorce. I have seen Brahmananda's mother. His father was very... still living. Very good businessman, very nice family, good income. All of a sudden the father and mother disagreed, they divorce. The sons were somewhere; the daughters were somewhere.
Director: That's cases we deal with. Adoption, and...
Prabhupada: And the father married again, the mother married again. They were not happy, and the business also closed. So by one instance I can understand that how in the Western countries people become out of social structure. The root cause is godlessness. Root cause.
Director: And now divorce is getting easier too, isn't it?
Prabhupada: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Canakya Pandita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvarambhe laghu kriya. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Aja yuddhe (More quote by Canakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.
Otherwise the society was divided into four classes -- brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. The brahmanas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gita. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man, by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.
Director: But it would be very difficult for the people who start out with us. Would be possible with the kids that start out with us.
Prabhupada: No, they will live, just like they are living. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is a question of training them. I have no facility. Whatever I have done, by personal endeavor and their cooperation. Neither your government, I mean the Western government, they helped me, neither my government helped me, although we are struggling to make class of men ideal. They appreciate, but they do not give us... Now, just like we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. We write our books, then we sell, we get some income. So somehow or other we expand. But no government is helping us. They are increasing brothels, drinking. At least in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is making that. They are opening wine shop. India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all socially if anyone drinks, he is rejected as gentleman.
A drunkard was never respected. Similarly meat-eaters. He was considered third-class man. In our childhood we have seen when people learned to eat meat, very secretly, not within the house. Outside the house with some Mohammedan cooker. It was considered very abominable to eat meat, to drink. And women, they were kept strictly under the vigilance of parents, father. Young girls not to mix with any young boy. If one young girl goes out of home and does not come back at night, then her life is finished. Nobody will marry her. So the father had to keep the young girls with great care. And the father was very, very anxious to find out a boy to hand it over. We have seen in our childhood. But now these things are slackened. Jawaharlal Nehru, our late prime minister, introduced divorce law. Now the society is in chaotic condition.
Director: What can you do if society wants it? Society wants it that way.
Prabhupada: Society... that's like your child wants to go to hell. But it is not the duty of the father to allow him to go to hell. Society want... Because the society does not know, the government does not know how to uplift the position of the human being. They do not know it. They know that the animals and we are the same. They simply loiter naked, and we are nicely dressed, that's all. Finished civilization. I remain animal, but my advancement is because I am very nicely dressed. That is the standard now. But the Vedic civilization is not. The animal must change the consciousness. He must be trained up a human being. Just that is... You say.
Devotee:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
"Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness -- these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."
Prabhupada: So, people should be trained up.
Director: Hmm. Excuse me, what do you do this (Indistinct. Talks with other devotees about something)
Prabhupada: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. There is no training, how you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Krsna consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, then it is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize.
These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.
Director: But not our people all do.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Director: Not our clients all do.
Prabhupada: Yes, they will do. If regular institution runs on with all facility... We get so many devotees come here, after some time they become dedicated devotees. The method must be there. This is... We are increasing; our movement is not decreasing. Just like we have opened a temple here. There was no temple, but we have got a nice temple. In this way all over the world our movement is increasing; it is not decreasing. I came from India alone in New York, 1965. So for one year I had no place to stay, I had no means to eat. I was loitering practically, living in some friend's house and some friend's house. Then gradually it developed, people. I was chanting in a Square in New York alone, full three hours. What is that, Tompkinson Square? Yes. You been in New York? So that was my beginning. Then gradually people came. You were in some club, what is that?
Madhudvisa: California?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhudvisa: In ranch.
Prabhupada: Ranch?
Madhudvisa: That Morningstar?
Prabhupada: Ah, ha, ha.
Madhudvisa: Yes. (laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) That was another brothel.
Madhudvisa: Hippie farm, you came there.
Prabhupada: So there, and I went there. The proprietor, the organizer, he took me there. So I think if we, if you are serious, let us combinedly open an institution where people should be trained up how to become first class. Children should be trained up. That will make a solution.
Director: Must change society then.
Prabhupada: No, no change. Let society what it is. We train up some children as we are doing in Dallas, and some men also. Just like we have trained them. It is possible. No. This is practical example. Just like you were in a den, Morningstar.
Director: Have many of your gentlemen been delinquency in your life?
Madhudvisa: Delinquency?
Director: Yeah. Have you been involved in troubles with the law before you joined?
Madhudvisa: Oh, many of the devotees.
Director: Have you?
Madhudvisa: Oh, yes.
Director: You've been in trouble some, have you?
Madhudvisa: Yes.
Devotee: We have one boy here who spent nine months in a penitentiary.
Prabhupada: This is practical. We can stop. Just like they have become saintly person. Everyone... India they are surprised that "How you have made these Europeans, Americans like this?" They are surprised. Because in India the brahmanas and others, they were under impression that "These Western people, they are hopeless. They cannot be any advanced religionist or spiritual." So when they see we have got many temples in India, that they are worshiping Deity and managing everything, chanting, dancing, they are surprised. Many swamis came before me, but they could not transform. But it is not I who have transformed, but the method is so nice that they became transformed.
Director: But people will say a very small percentage of the population.
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people will see that here is the ideal man. Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming and they are also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service: "Please accept me." The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don't mind, I don't find any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in sometimes before in a hospital, five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character?
Director: But homosexual is a sickness.
Devotee: He said it's an illness.
Director: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says.
Prabhupada: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupada: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Krsna consciousness movement.
Director: What you people say what ideal to you is not ideal to somebody else?
Prabhupada: I am giving the example ideal character.
Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion.
Prabhupada: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the sastra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Krsna said, that is standard, that's all. Krsna is the Supreme, and His version is final.
No opinion, no democracy. When you go to a physician, doctor, for treatment, the physician does not place his prescription for opinion of other patients: "Now I am prescribing this medicine for this gentleman, now give me your opinion." Does he do that? The all patients, what they will think? The physician is the perfect person. Whatever he has written prescription, that's all. But here in the Western... everything, public opinion. What is the use of such opinion?
Director: You don't think the patients have any mind of their own?
Prabhupada: They have mind, but that is deprecated mind. Just like madman, he has got his mind, but what is the value of that mind? You are not going to take opinion of a madman. He has his mind, but he is a madman. Mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnana. His knowledge has been taken away. The mind being, what is called, in disordered condition, there is no value of his opinion.
Director: And what if the brahmana starts to rule the world in their own interest?
Prabhupada: Hmm? [break] ...is not for his own interest, for everyone's interest. That is honesty.
Director: What if he's misguided? The world changes and since that book was...
Prabhupada: Simply because they did not follow. Just like in India, this is the character of the brahmanas that later on gradually the culture was lost since the last one thousand years, because India was subjugated by foreigners. The Mohammedans, they introduced some of their culture. Then the Britishers came. They intr... everyone wants an interest. The Britishers, when British rule came, their Lord Macauley's(?) private report was that "If you want to keep them as Indian Hindu, you will never be able to rule over." So it was British government's policy to condemn everything Indian.
Director: But you said before that they didn't allow drinking, the British.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Director: It's only now that... Didn't you say before?
Prabhupada: Yes, the British allowed. British, very carefully, because they directly did not put hands on their culture. But underground. And when they are now trained up, now they are openly doing. But the training was by the Britishers. In gentleman's society there must be drinking. This was the introduction.
Director: But in Indian society, they forbid it.
Prabhupada: Indian society, the did not know how to drink tea even. In our childhood we have seen that Britishers started tea garden. There was no tea plants before Britishers. The Britishers saw the labor is very cheap, and they want to do business, they started. Just like they are doing in Africa. So many gardens, coffee and tea. So they started, and the tea was transferred to be sold in America. They were after business. So the... Now, so much tea, who will consume? The government started a tea sets committee. All the tea garden holders they would pay government. And road to road, street to street, their business was canvassing, preparing tea, very nice, palatable tea, and they advertising if you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry, and your malaria will go away and so on, so on. And people began to drink tea. Nice cup. I have seen it. Now they have got a taste. Now gradually now a sweeper also, early in the morning, is waiting in the tea shop to get a cup of tea.
Tea was taken in our childhood if somebody is coughing, sometimes they used to tea. That was also later. But it was unknown. Drinking tea, drinking wine, smoking, meat-eating -- these things were unknown. Prostitution. There was prostitution. Not that everyone is prostitute. Very strict. So these things should be taken care of -- at least a class of men must be ideal for people others will see. And the training should go on, just like we are doing. We are inviting people to come to chant with us, to dance with us, take prasadam. And gradually they are becoming. The same (?) addicted to drinking, addicted to prostitution, addicted to meat-eating, he is becoming saintly person. This is practical, you can see, what was their previous history and what they are now.
Director: But how do we reconcile the fact that our doctors tell us we should eat meat because of the protein?
Prabhupada: That is a foolishness. They are not eating meat for the last ten years. Do you think they are reduced in their health? Rather people say bright faces. In Boston one priest, I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. One gentleman in plain dress, he is a priest, he said, "Swamiji, how your students look so bright?" And sometimes we are advertised as bright faces. In Boston or somewhere the ladies were asking, "Are you American?"
Director: How would you react if somebody breaks into this place and tries to rob some of the...
Madhudvisa: He says "How would we react if someone breaks in and tries to rob the building?"
Prabhupada: Rob?
Madhudvisa: A thief. What would we do if a thief came in? In other words, would we be violent?
Prabhupada: If a thief came in we shall punish him.
Director: You should be violent?
Prabhupada: Why not? A thief should be punished.
Director: You would punish yourself? What would you do? Would you start attacking him?
Prabhupada: No, ourself or anyone, a thief is to be punished. A thief has to be punished. Ourself or yourself, it doesn't matter. A thief is thief. He should be punished.
Director: What if he breaks in because he is hungry?
Prabhupada: Who breaks?
Madhudvisa: He says what if he breaks in because he's hungry?
Prabhupada: We say everyone come and eat. Why he should remain hungry? We invite everyone, come here, eat, no charge. We don't charge. Why he should remain hungry? Let us increase this program. All hungry men of Melbourne city, come here, you take your eating sumptuously. We invite, "Come on." Why you should remain hungry?
Director: What if he's an alcoholic and he's hungry?
Devotee: We have a couple of alcoholics that come here, and we give them food every night.
Director: You do?
Devotee: Yes.
Director: Just like the Gordon House.
Devotee: Yes. They come, we have a feast every Sunday. They come and we give them food.
Prabhupada: It requires little time to practice. Otherwise, it is open for everyone for reformation.
Director: But you would have your limitations how far you can go in feeding people.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Devotee: He says we would have our limitations in that how many people we could feed.
Prabhupada: We can feed unlimitedly provided the government helps.
Director: You could form... you could make a place destitute people could come and have a free meal.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, oh, yes. Everyone, we open to everyone. You come and take prasadam.
Director: Could the government in a word use you...
Prabhupada: No, we cannot be used by the government. We can use the government. Government cannot dictate us. That will not help.
Director: Just a moment. Just a moment. It is the fact that we have a lot of destitutes to look after, and you feel your religious order would like to help people. If the government subsidizes you to provide these services...
Prabhupada: That we can do.
Director: That you can do. As long as they don't contradict your...
Prabhupada: No. Our principle is this.
Director: I mean a lot of church organizations taking children and...
Prabhupada: You can see one day. If you kindly come early in the morning and stay one day, you see our activity, how nicely we are doing. And then do the needful.
Director: I don't come here as a person. I'm representing my department.
Prabhupada: No, whatever it may be...
Director: The fact what you convince me or not is... our society should,... I can only say that we're dealing with very poor people. We tell them what you're doing, and perhaps something can be combined. Or I can say to the minister that it emerged and it goes on from there. And I can go back to my other duties.
Prabhupada: Then they can give us some contribution per capita for taking care. Then we can invite. We can increase the accommodation. Now we are doing. We have no business, no income. We are selling our books. So our income is limited. Still we invite anyone, come. But if government encourages us, then we can increase the program.
Director: Of course it's a political decision. I can only...
Prabhupada: It is above politics.
Director: From your point of view, but we in the department depend on political decisions.
Prabhupada: Yes, the department means they are another set of...
Director: Yes, that's just an instrument, for public will. The minister is elected according to public will...
Prabhupada: Because they have made a department, just like your... what is the department?
Devotee: Social welfare.
Prabhupada: Social welfare. So if they find social welfare, why not help? Why they bring politics? If actually there is social welfare here, why they should not support it?
Director: Yeah, well you're right. But in our society, minister is elected to carry out certain policies -- not what he wants but what the people have voted. And they are taxed to support this.
Prabhupada: If your policy is social reformation...
Director: Social reform is not our policy.
Prabhupada: Then, social welfare.
Director: Just to look after those who are in trouble.
Prabhupada: Well, everyone is in trouble. At the present moment even the ministers are in trouble.
Director: Yes, but that is not what our function is. Everybody's in trouble. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Physician, heal thyself. You see? They are also drunkards, they are also woman-hunters, meat-eaters, and gambling, that's all. They require to be rectified.
Director: But you can't help that. You have to go and change society, then society tells us to act differently.
Prabhupada: No, no. Unless you change the society, how you can make social welfare? If you keep them as it is, then where is the question of welfare?
Director: Give it a different interpretation to the word.
Prabhupada: Inter... how the? I don't...
Director: Does he understand me?
Prabhupada: Basically, basically one must be first-class ideal man. That is wanted.
Director: That's why it's so very difficult. You have to work on your own, and...
Prabhupada: No, no. Our own program, it is not vox populi. You find out fault with us.
Director: Huh?
Prabhupada: You find out what is our fault. Then you can disagree. But when you see everything is nice, how you will not accept it? Unless you are biased.
Director: Of course I'm biased. I've been brought up differently.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like our...
Director: Just as you're biased against my life.
Prabhupada: No, we are not biased. Just like... We are not biased. We are allowing. We say that if you want to be first-class man, then you must not commit sinful activities. That is our propaganda.
Director: But I as a public servant, I'm not here to change society.
Prabhupada: But we are also public. We belong to the public. You must become our servant also.
Director: What?
Prabhupada: We are public, members of the public. So you should become our servant also, if you are public servant. (laughter)
Director: A public servant is, in our philosophy, is a man who serves a minister elected by the people, and this way he serves the public. And what the public decides, he accordingly.
Prabhupada: Therefore we are reforming the public. The select...
Director: Yes, that's what I mean. When you reform the public, then you cannot (indistinct) differently.
Prabhupada: Yes. So the public select a president, Nixon, and they became disturbed, again drag him down. This is going on.
Director: Yes, but that is how society works. You must want to change, we have to change. I just do what I'm asked to do. Otherwise I lose my job.
Prabhupada: No, if you actually want to do some social welfare, then you must take the standard formula. And if you manufacture your own way, that will never be successful.
Director: I might agree with you that of us will be Krsna...
Prabhupada: Not whole. We don't...
Director: Then we would be, then social welfare would mean something different.
Prabhupada: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing -- Krsna says -- that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?
Director: You're quite right.
Prabhupada: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this...
Director: Yes, a competitive society.
Prabhupada: We say that you chant Hare Krsna, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Krsna mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.
Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that...
Prabhupada: Tiny percentage. Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. (laughter) But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.
Director: How do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
Prabhupada: Huh? What is that?
Devotee: He says how do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
Director: In China he's the ideal man.
Devotee: He's a Communist.
Prabhupada: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.
Just produce food grains. The animals can also take, you can also take. Why should you take animal?" That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita.
Director: But where the winters are long, people have to kill animals to have something to eat over winter.
Prabhupada: Well, but you should have... I am not speaking for India or Europe. I am speaking the whole human society. Just try to understand.
Director: People started eating meat because in winter they had nothing else to eat.
Prabhupada: No, you can eat meat, but you cannot eat meat by killing your father and mother. That is human sense. You are taking milk from the cow, it is your mother. You take milk, that in Australia they produce so much milk, butter, and everything. And after it is finished, cut the throat and make business, send to other countries. What is this nonsense? Is that humanity? Do you think?
Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people to survive the winter had to kill the...
Prabhupada: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists, we can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists they do not discover medicine or process? "No, no, we shall not die." So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this.
Director: Well, I certainly wish you luck.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Director: I wish you luck.
Prabhupada: Hm, thank you.
Director: As a public servant that you reform society as your life. To carry out the instrument of...
Prabhupada: So kindly cooperate with us. This is... Try to learn the philosophy, and you will be surprised how nice philosophy it is.
Director: I'm quite sure.
Prabhupada: Yes. So we don't count for percentage. Let personally become ideal man. The same example: There is no percentage in comparison to the stars and one moon. What is the percentage? There are millions of stars. It is, what is the percentage, one and million? It is practically zero percentage. But still, because it is moon it is more sufficient than all these small stars. So produce moon.
Director: Yes, but that moon is big, and you can recognize it, but another man, just another star...
Prabhupada: No, that's all right. If you cannot make as good as moon...
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupada: You cannot make, but it is possible if they are ideal men.
Director: I know what you're saying, but a person would ask you, you're just a man like me, how, you know... it's not just as a star... that your opinion, just like...
Prabhupada: No, if you approve this method you can cooperate in so many ways. First of all you have to see what is this method, Krsna consciousness movement. That we are prepared to serve you, to convince you, the first-class nature of this movement. Now if you are convinced, try to cooperate. And induce other leaders. You are also one of the leaders. Yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah [Bg. 3.21]. If the leaders of the society become compassionate with this movement, others will automatically follow, "Oh, our leaders, our minister is supporting this. Our..."
Director: Our minister regards himself as a servant of the people, who can be kicked out...
Prabhupada: That is the defect. The people are rascals and they have elected another rascal. (laughter) That is the defect.
Director: But that's how it is.
Prabhupada: So what can be done? Then hopeless.
Director: Well, you can work on the...
Prabhupada: But we are going without depending on these rascals. We are going on. We are publishing our books, we are making our movement, we honestly trying. That's all. That we are doing all over the world.
Director: All we can do is allow you to convince the population differently.
Prabhupada: We are doing.
Director: And when you do that, then social welfare...
Prabhupada: Now suppose if we instruct a man, "Please do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection?
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupada: If I advise somebody that "Do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection?
Director:. Yes, I have...
Prabhupada: You have illicit... If I say...
Director: I like sex, and my wife likes sex. We just enjoy, we couldn't live without it. Our marriage is happier because we have sex.
Prabhupada: Just see. (chuckling) This is the position.
Director: That is the position. We are both...
Prabhupada: So how they have accepted? (Referring to disciples)
Director: I don't know. I don't know, but I couldn't. Our life is enjoying sex, and our marriage is happier with sex.
Prabhupada: No, we don't prohibit sex. But we prohibit...
Director: ...don't have two children...
Prabhupada: ...illicit sex.
Director: Well, we use the pill, or use contraceptives, use all kind of things. Because it makes our...
Prabhupada: Why do you use contraceptive?
Director: Because don't want any more children.
Prabhupada: Then why don't you stop sex?
Director: Because we like sex.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Director: Because we enjoy it.
Prabhupada: That means you go to physician, "I want to do everything I like; still I want treatment." This is the position. You want...
Director: I didn't come for treatment. (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, no, I say... (laughs) No, no, you have come for treatment here because you have failed to control the society, your activities; therefore you have come here, treatment. But when I prescribe medicine, you don't accept.
Director: I haven't come for treatment.
Prabhupada: No... yes. Otherwise why you come?
Director: I was invited.
Prabhupada: Just to help you in your social activities, social welfare activities. To take some suggestion from us. But when we give the suggestion, you reject it. That is your position. You have come here to take some suggestion so that you can make your activities very nice, but when we suggest you reject it.
Director: I'm two people -- I'm myself and I'm a public servant.
Prabhupada: Any, anyone. That is the position. For treatment we go to a physician, and the physician prescribes medicine, you reject it. So how you will be cured? That is the position. When the prescription is given you want to put it in the votes of other patients. What the patient will know about the prescription? They are patients. There is no question of...
Director: If I would come here and want to join your movement I would accept it.
Prabhupada: No, you join or not join, you have come here to consult us if we can help your activities. But when we prescribe, you do not accept it. That is your position.
Devotee: He has to go now, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Give him prasada, just... So, to, actually to make the whole human society happy, this God consciousness movement must spread.
Director: Well, I'll certainly report back. Thank you very much for seeing me.
Prabhupada: Just little wait.
Devotee: We have some nice foodstuffs which we're just preparing to (indistinct). It's a custom. Srila Prabhupada said to give prasadam to everyone.
Prabhupada: It is our custom that if anyone comes, he should be offered a nice seat and given some eatables. Yes.
Director: How long will you be staying in Melbourne?
Prabhupada: I am going day after tomorrow.
Director: Have you seen many people in Melbourne?
Prabhupada: They are daily one or two gentlemen, like you they are coming. But they find our prescription very strict. (laughter) And... but we are not going to change it. We are not after vox populi. That is not our concern. We have got our standard method.
Director: Yeah, sure. I believe that you should have these standards if you want them, if anybody wants them.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is making us successful. We do not make any compromise. This is our method. If you like, you take it. If you don't like, you go away. Don't mind.
Director: If you can convince the society to change, then the public servants will change.
Prabhupada: Yes, we are in the society, we are inviting everyone, they are coming. They are coming. Gradually they are becoming converted to this.
Director: When will you be coming back to Melbourne?
Prabhupada: Next January.
Director: Come again this often...
Prabhupada: Yes. So I am going, but I only hopeful on these young boys. They will do. Take the whole plate. Take the whole plate, it is fruit, it is very nice. Patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26]. This is meant for human being, the fruits. The tigers will not eat the fruits. The tiger, canine teeth, they will not like. We have got different teeth for eating fruit.
Director: It's very nice and sweet.
Prabhupada: So we have got food grains, we have got fruits, we have got milk. By combination of milk and food grains we can prepare so many nice palatable, full of vitamins. Why we should kill the animal? Let the animal live and take it's milk and prepare nice food, full of vitamins. Milk is nothing conversion of blood. So why do you take the blood by killing? Take the blood in a different form, milk. This is our program. Let the animal live peacefully, and if you are meat-eaters, let the animal die and you eat. There will be no charge for it. The meat-eaters, let us keep some animal, take milk, and when it dies naturally, you call the meat-eater, "Please take this." You take the skin free, you take the bones free, you eat meat. Just wait for the death. It will die after all. That much concession I want. But let the animal live without any fear of being killed so it will supply more milk. Suppose if you know that I am keeping you here for killing. Will you be very happy?
Your mind will be always disturbed. We cannot get good service from you. So animal also understands that "They are going to kill us." Therefore you don't get sufficient milk. But when they are assured that they will not be killed, they will give double milk. They do not know the psychology. This is going on.
Director: Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: And if you want to eat meat, let it die. That is our program. If you like, you can accept. Thank you very much. (Guest leaves.) This is the disease. They want to keep the poor girls free for prostitution so that they can enjoy. This is main point. He has admitted. Keep the young girls free, they have also sex desire, and this man enjoy. This is the whole basic principle here in Western.
Devotee: This man, he was of a very ripe age, and still he was saying that...
Prabhupada: Yes, the ripe age, up to the point of death one is sexually inclined. Up to the point of death. There was a minister of Agwar(?). I have told you this story? Yes. At the point of death he was looking to the young girl. That is natural. Unless one is trained up, that is natural. That is maya's entrapping machine to keep the living entity within this material world.
Srutakirti: Sometimes the youth, when we offer them Krsna consciousness, they say, "When I get older I won't be so attached to this enjoyment, so then I can take it up."
Prabhupada: They generally think so, but that is not possible.
Srutakirti: That is not the fact.
Prabhupada: In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub, paying $50 entrance fee, then they spend money for woman, wine. And few hours they stay there and come back. They are all old men. It is very difficult job, but still by Krsna's grace you are accepting this principle. That is great mercy of Krsna. Otherwise it is very, very difficult. One old man, I told you that Marquis of Zetland? In London? So he proposed one of my Godbrothers went, "Can you make me brahmana?" "Oh, yes. You give up this habit." "Oh, that is impossible. That is impossible. This is our life." So in the Western countries that is the life, to have illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, and gambling. There are organized clubs, brothels, hotels, only for this. People are accepting this principle, young boys like you, it is Krsna's mercy on us. Otherwise it is impossible.
Devotee: These old men, Srila Prabhupada, they're trying but they cannot enjoy it very much any more.
Prabhupada: Unless they enjoy with Krsna, it is impossible.
Devotee: They are not finding it so pleasurable as young men?
Prabhupada: And how we are finding pleasure in chanting and dancing? It is a practice.
Devotee: No, I mean sex life.
Prabhupada: Sex life we are not stopping. But sex life allowed only to the grhasthas, householder, restricted. Not illicit sex. We are not stopping sex life. Sex life is required. But under rules. And if you enjoy illicit sex, then the whole society is spoiled. You make the innocent girls spoiled. And they have no other business than prostitution. That means you put the society into chaotic condition. The young girls they become cheap, you enjoy, then you become irresponsible. You have no family encumbrances, and you do not know how to maintain the family. That is the position. What is this welfare? Because the young boys enjoy the young girls and they get children, the government has to support.
Devotee: That's the cause of this whole problem.
Prabhupada: Yes, the welfare department is for that purpose only.
Devotee: And he's the head of the department.
Prabhupada: He also does the same thing. He does not know how to cure it.
Devotee: He said that "I could not live without illicit sex life."
Prabhupada: Yes. Mostly the bachelor daddy. They pose themself as bachelor, but they are having at least three times sex with contraceptive method, you see. This is going on. And they are accepted as standard. And if you want to reform it, then it is (indistinct). The whole basic wrong is they have become godless animals, that's all. The only method is this Krsna consciousness. There is no other second method. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Krsna conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Krsna conscious they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. (to devotee:) I think you should continue as a grhastha for the time being.
Devotee: Yes, I think so.
Prabhupada: Unless you are ripe old age. At least up to fifty years. What is your age now?
Devotee: Um, twenty-eight.
Prabhupada: Twenty-eight. So up to fifty years you remain grhastha and take care of wife, children. Work honestly and attend the... You prove an ideal grhastha. That will be very nice. Don't change your mind.
Devotee: So they'll be able to take care of the situation there by themselves?
Prabhupada: Who?
Devotee: In Hong Kong?
Prabhupada: They are taking. Panca-dravida Maharaja is there. He is a sannyasi. That is all right. You don't change your mind. You are already trained up about Krsna consciousness, so you try to become an ideal householder in Krsna consciousness. Because we are not rejecting householder. We are accepting everyone. Grhe va thake ha gauranga bole dake. Anyone, either he remains as a sannyasi in the forest or he remains a grhastha at home, if he is cultivating this Krsna consciousness and Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, then he is all right. That is the verdict. So now you are living as grhastha. Live as an ideal grhastha, don't change your mind. Be fixed up. They are all grhasthas, all these Panca-tattva, you see? Advaita Prabhu was a grhastha. He did not take sannyasa. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu also was married. Nityananda Prabhu was grhastha. They were all grhasthas, but ideal grhastha. So you become an ideal grhastha. That also wanted.
Grhastha is also called asrama, grhastha-asrama. As sannyasa is called asrama, similarly grhastha is called asrama. Anywhere cultivation of Krsna consciousness is going on, that is asrama. Now it depends on my personal convenience either I remain as grhastha or I be a sannyasi. But when you have accepted the grhastha life, so that's all right. Remain at least for fifty years. Then you can give up when your children are grown up. You just give them education, settle them, then you can leave home. That is grhastha-asrama. So, we shall... That's all. (end)
Prabhupada: I have seen many of my students, their family, whole family disrupt on account of father and mother, even in old age, divorce. I have seen Brahmananda's mother. His father was very... still living. Very good businessman, very nice family, good income. All of a sudden the father and mother disagreed, they divorce. The sons were somewhere; the daughters were somewhere.
Director: That's cases we deal with. Adoption, and...
Prabhupada: And the father married again, the mother married again. They were not happy, and the business also closed. So by one instance I can understand that how in the Western countries people become out of social structure. The root cause is godlessness. Root cause.
Director: And now divorce is getting easier too, isn't it?
Prabhupada: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Canakya Pandita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvarambhe laghu kriya. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Aja yuddhe (More quote by Canakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.
Otherwise the society was divided into four classes -- brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. The brahmanas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gita. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man, by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.
Director: But it would be very difficult for the people who start out with us. Would be possible with the kids that start out with us.
Prabhupada: No, they will live, just like they are living. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is a question of training them. I have no facility. Whatever I have done, by personal endeavor and their cooperation. Neither your government, I mean the Western government, they helped me, neither my government helped me, although we are struggling to make class of men ideal. They appreciate, but they do not give us... Now, just like we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. We write our books, then we sell, we get some income. So somehow or other we expand. But no government is helping us. They are increasing brothels, drinking. At least in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is making that. They are opening wine shop. India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all socially if anyone drinks, he is rejected as gentleman.
A drunkard was never respected. Similarly meat-eaters. He was considered third-class man. In our childhood we have seen when people learned to eat meat, very secretly, not within the house. Outside the house with some Mohammedan cooker. It was considered very abominable to eat meat, to drink. And women, they were kept strictly under the vigilance of parents, father. Young girls not to mix with any young boy. If one young girl goes out of home and does not come back at night, then her life is finished. Nobody will marry her. So the father had to keep the young girls with great care. And the father was very, very anxious to find out a boy to hand it over. We have seen in our childhood. But now these things are slackened. Jawaharlal Nehru, our late prime minister, introduced divorce law. Now the society is in chaotic condition.
Director: What can you do if society wants it? Society wants it that way.
Prabhupada: Society... that's like your child wants to go to hell. But it is not the duty of the father to allow him to go to hell. Society want... Because the society does not know, the government does not know how to uplift the position of the human being. They do not know it. They know that the animals and we are the same. They simply loiter naked, and we are nicely dressed, that's all. Finished civilization. I remain animal, but my advancement is because I am very nicely dressed. That is the standard now. But the Vedic civilization is not. The animal must change the consciousness. He must be trained up a human being. Just that is... You say.
Devotee:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
"Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness -- these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."
Prabhupada: So, people should be trained up.
Director: Hmm. Excuse me, what do you do this (Indistinct. Talks with other devotees about something)
Prabhupada: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. There is no training, how you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Krsna consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, then it is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize.
These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.
Director: But not our people all do.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Director: Not our clients all do.
Prabhupada: Yes, they will do. If regular institution runs on with all facility... We get so many devotees come here, after some time they become dedicated devotees. The method must be there. This is... We are increasing; our movement is not decreasing. Just like we have opened a temple here. There was no temple, but we have got a nice temple. In this way all over the world our movement is increasing; it is not decreasing. I came from India alone in New York, 1965. So for one year I had no place to stay, I had no means to eat. I was loitering practically, living in some friend's house and some friend's house. Then gradually it developed, people. I was chanting in a Square in New York alone, full three hours. What is that, Tompkinson Square? Yes. You been in New York? So that was my beginning. Then gradually people came. You were in some club, what is that?
Madhudvisa: California?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhudvisa: In ranch.
Prabhupada: Ranch?
Madhudvisa: That Morningstar?
Prabhupada: Ah, ha, ha.
Madhudvisa: Yes. (laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) That was another brothel.
Madhudvisa: Hippie farm, you came there.
Prabhupada: So there, and I went there. The proprietor, the organizer, he took me there. So I think if we, if you are serious, let us combinedly open an institution where people should be trained up how to become first class. Children should be trained up. That will make a solution.
Director: Must change society then.
Prabhupada: No, no change. Let society what it is. We train up some children as we are doing in Dallas, and some men also. Just like we have trained them. It is possible. No. This is practical example. Just like you were in a den, Morningstar.
Director: Have many of your gentlemen been delinquency in your life?
Madhudvisa: Delinquency?
Director: Yeah. Have you been involved in troubles with the law before you joined?
Madhudvisa: Oh, many of the devotees.
Director: Have you?
Madhudvisa: Oh, yes.
Director: You've been in trouble some, have you?
Madhudvisa: Yes.
Devotee: We have one boy here who spent nine months in a penitentiary.
Prabhupada: This is practical. We can stop. Just like they have become saintly person. Everyone... India they are surprised that "How you have made these Europeans, Americans like this?" They are surprised. Because in India the brahmanas and others, they were under impression that "These Western people, they are hopeless. They cannot be any advanced religionist or spiritual." So when they see we have got many temples in India, that they are worshiping Deity and managing everything, chanting, dancing, they are surprised. Many swamis came before me, but they could not transform. But it is not I who have transformed, but the method is so nice that they became transformed.
Director: But people will say a very small percentage of the population.
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people will see that here is the ideal man. Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming and they are also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service: "Please accept me." The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don't mind, I don't find any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in sometimes before in a hospital, five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character?
Director: But homosexual is a sickness.
Devotee: He said it's an illness.
Director: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says.
Prabhupada: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupada: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Krsna consciousness movement.
Director: What you people say what ideal to you is not ideal to somebody else?
Prabhupada: I am giving the example ideal character.
Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion.
Prabhupada: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the sastra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Krsna said, that is standard, that's all. Krsna is the Supreme, and His version is final.
No opinion, no democracy. When you go to a physician, doctor, for treatment, the physician does not place his prescription for opinion of other patients: "Now I am prescribing this medicine for this gentleman, now give me your opinion." Does he do that? The all patients, what they will think? The physician is the perfect person. Whatever he has written prescription, that's all. But here in the Western... everything, public opinion. What is the use of such opinion?
Director: You don't think the patients have any mind of their own?
Prabhupada: They have mind, but that is deprecated mind. Just like madman, he has got his mind, but what is the value of that mind? You are not going to take opinion of a madman. He has his mind, but he is a madman. Mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnana. His knowledge has been taken away. The mind being, what is called, in disordered condition, there is no value of his opinion.
Director: And what if the brahmana starts to rule the world in their own interest?
Prabhupada: Hmm? [break] ...is not for his own interest, for everyone's interest. That is honesty.
Director: What if he's misguided? The world changes and since that book was...
Prabhupada: Simply because they did not follow. Just like in India, this is the character of the brahmanas that later on gradually the culture was lost since the last one thousand years, because India was subjugated by foreigners. The Mohammedans, they introduced some of their culture. Then the Britishers came. They intr... everyone wants an interest. The Britishers, when British rule came, their Lord Macauley's(?) private report was that "If you want to keep them as Indian Hindu, you will never be able to rule over." So it was British government's policy to condemn everything Indian.
Director: But you said before that they didn't allow drinking, the British.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Director: It's only now that... Didn't you say before?
Prabhupada: Yes, the British allowed. British, very carefully, because they directly did not put hands on their culture. But underground. And when they are now trained up, now they are openly doing. But the training was by the Britishers. In gentleman's society there must be drinking. This was the introduction.
Director: But in Indian society, they forbid it.
Prabhupada: Indian society, the did not know how to drink tea even. In our childhood we have seen that Britishers started tea garden. There was no tea plants before Britishers. The Britishers saw the labor is very cheap, and they want to do business, they started. Just like they are doing in Africa. So many gardens, coffee and tea. So they started, and the tea was transferred to be sold in America. They were after business. So the... Now, so much tea, who will consume? The government started a tea sets committee. All the tea garden holders they would pay government. And road to road, street to street, their business was canvassing, preparing tea, very nice, palatable tea, and they advertising if you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry, and your malaria will go away and so on, so on. And people began to drink tea. Nice cup. I have seen it. Now they have got a taste. Now gradually now a sweeper also, early in the morning, is waiting in the tea shop to get a cup of tea.
Tea was taken in our childhood if somebody is coughing, sometimes they used to tea. That was also later. But it was unknown. Drinking tea, drinking wine, smoking, meat-eating -- these things were unknown. Prostitution. There was prostitution. Not that everyone is prostitute. Very strict. So these things should be taken care of -- at least a class of men must be ideal for people others will see. And the training should go on, just like we are doing. We are inviting people to come to chant with us, to dance with us, take prasadam. And gradually they are becoming. The same (?) addicted to drinking, addicted to prostitution, addicted to meat-eating, he is becoming saintly person. This is practical, you can see, what was their previous history and what they are now.
Director: But how do we reconcile the fact that our doctors tell us we should eat meat because of the protein?
Prabhupada: That is a foolishness. They are not eating meat for the last ten years. Do you think they are reduced in their health? Rather people say bright faces. In Boston one priest, I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. One gentleman in plain dress, he is a priest, he said, "Swamiji, how your students look so bright?" And sometimes we are advertised as bright faces. In Boston or somewhere the ladies were asking, "Are you American?"
Director: How would you react if somebody breaks into this place and tries to rob some of the...
Madhudvisa: He says "How would we react if someone breaks in and tries to rob the building?"
Prabhupada: Rob?
Madhudvisa: A thief. What would we do if a thief came in? In other words, would we be violent?
Prabhupada: If a thief came in we shall punish him.
Director: You should be violent?
Prabhupada: Why not? A thief should be punished.
Director: You would punish yourself? What would you do? Would you start attacking him?
Prabhupada: No, ourself or anyone, a thief is to be punished. A thief has to be punished. Ourself or yourself, it doesn't matter. A thief is thief. He should be punished.
Director: What if he breaks in because he is hungry?
Prabhupada: Who breaks?
Madhudvisa: He says what if he breaks in because he's hungry?
Prabhupada: We say everyone come and eat. Why he should remain hungry? We invite everyone, come here, eat, no charge. We don't charge. Why he should remain hungry? Let us increase this program. All hungry men of Melbourne city, come here, you take your eating sumptuously. We invite, "Come on." Why you should remain hungry?
Director: What if he's an alcoholic and he's hungry?
Devotee: We have a couple of alcoholics that come here, and we give them food every night.
Director: You do?
Devotee: Yes.
Director: Just like the Gordon House.
Devotee: Yes. They come, we have a feast every Sunday. They come and we give them food.
Prabhupada: It requires little time to practice. Otherwise, it is open for everyone for reformation.
Director: But you would have your limitations how far you can go in feeding people.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Devotee: He says we would have our limitations in that how many people we could feed.
Prabhupada: We can feed unlimitedly provided the government helps.
Director: You could form... you could make a place destitute people could come and have a free meal.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, oh, yes. Everyone, we open to everyone. You come and take prasadam.
Director: Could the government in a word use you...
Prabhupada: No, we cannot be used by the government. We can use the government. Government cannot dictate us. That will not help.
Director: Just a moment. Just a moment. It is the fact that we have a lot of destitutes to look after, and you feel your religious order would like to help people. If the government subsidizes you to provide these services...
Prabhupada: That we can do.
Director: That you can do. As long as they don't contradict your...
Prabhupada: No. Our principle is this.
Director: I mean a lot of church organizations taking children and...
Prabhupada: You can see one day. If you kindly come early in the morning and stay one day, you see our activity, how nicely we are doing. And then do the needful.
Director: I don't come here as a person. I'm representing my department.
Prabhupada: No, whatever it may be...
Director: The fact what you convince me or not is... our society should,... I can only say that we're dealing with very poor people. We tell them what you're doing, and perhaps something can be combined. Or I can say to the minister that it emerged and it goes on from there. And I can go back to my other duties.
Prabhupada: Then they can give us some contribution per capita for taking care. Then we can invite. We can increase the accommodation. Now we are doing. We have no business, no income. We are selling our books. So our income is limited. Still we invite anyone, come. But if government encourages us, then we can increase the program.
Director: Of course it's a political decision. I can only...
Prabhupada: It is above politics.
Director: From your point of view, but we in the department depend on political decisions.
Prabhupada: Yes, the department means they are another set of...
Director: Yes, that's just an instrument, for public will. The minister is elected according to public will...
Prabhupada: Because they have made a department, just like your... what is the department?
Devotee: Social welfare.
Prabhupada: Social welfare. So if they find social welfare, why not help? Why they bring politics? If actually there is social welfare here, why they should not support it?
Director: Yeah, well you're right. But in our society, minister is elected to carry out certain policies -- not what he wants but what the people have voted. And they are taxed to support this.
Prabhupada: If your policy is social reformation...
Director: Social reform is not our policy.
Prabhupada: Then, social welfare.
Director: Just to look after those who are in trouble.
Prabhupada: Well, everyone is in trouble. At the present moment even the ministers are in trouble.
Director: Yes, but that is not what our function is. Everybody's in trouble. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Physician, heal thyself. You see? They are also drunkards, they are also woman-hunters, meat-eaters, and gambling, that's all. They require to be rectified.
Director: But you can't help that. You have to go and change society, then society tells us to act differently.
Prabhupada: No, no. Unless you change the society, how you can make social welfare? If you keep them as it is, then where is the question of welfare?
Director: Give it a different interpretation to the word.
Prabhupada: Inter... how the? I don't...
Director: Does he understand me?
Prabhupada: Basically, basically one must be first-class ideal man. That is wanted.
Director: That's why it's so very difficult. You have to work on your own, and...
Prabhupada: No, no. Our own program, it is not vox populi. You find out fault with us.
Director: Huh?
Prabhupada: You find out what is our fault. Then you can disagree. But when you see everything is nice, how you will not accept it? Unless you are biased.
Director: Of course I'm biased. I've been brought up differently.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like our...
Director: Just as you're biased against my life.
Prabhupada: No, we are not biased. Just like... We are not biased. We are allowing. We say that if you want to be first-class man, then you must not commit sinful activities. That is our propaganda.
Director: But I as a public servant, I'm not here to change society.
Prabhupada: But we are also public. We belong to the public. You must become our servant also.
Director: What?
Prabhupada: We are public, members of the public. So you should become our servant also, if you are public servant. (laughter)
Director: A public servant is, in our philosophy, is a man who serves a minister elected by the people, and this way he serves the public. And what the public decides, he accordingly.
Prabhupada: Therefore we are reforming the public. The select...
Director: Yes, that's what I mean. When you reform the public, then you cannot (indistinct) differently.
Prabhupada: Yes. So the public select a president, Nixon, and they became disturbed, again drag him down. This is going on.
Director: Yes, but that is how society works. You must want to change, we have to change. I just do what I'm asked to do. Otherwise I lose my job.
Prabhupada: No, if you actually want to do some social welfare, then you must take the standard formula. And if you manufacture your own way, that will never be successful.
Director: I might agree with you that of us will be Krsna...
Prabhupada: Not whole. We don't...
Director: Then we would be, then social welfare would mean something different.
Prabhupada: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing -- Krsna says -- that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?
Director: You're quite right.
Prabhupada: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this...
Director: Yes, a competitive society.
Prabhupada: We say that you chant Hare Krsna, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Krsna mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.
Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that...
Prabhupada: Tiny percentage. Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. (laughter) But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.
Director: How do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
Prabhupada: Huh? What is that?
Devotee: He says how do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
Director: In China he's the ideal man.
Devotee: He's a Communist.
Prabhupada: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.
Just produce food grains. The animals can also take, you can also take. Why should you take animal?" That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita.
Director: But where the winters are long, people have to kill animals to have something to eat over winter.
Prabhupada: Well, but you should have... I am not speaking for India or Europe. I am speaking the whole human society. Just try to understand.
Director: People started eating meat because in winter they had nothing else to eat.
Prabhupada: No, you can eat meat, but you cannot eat meat by killing your father and mother. That is human sense. You are taking milk from the cow, it is your mother. You take milk, that in Australia they produce so much milk, butter, and everything. And after it is finished, cut the throat and make business, send to other countries. What is this nonsense? Is that humanity? Do you think?
Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people to survive the winter had to kill the...
Prabhupada: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists, we can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists they do not discover medicine or process? "No, no, we shall not die." So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this.
Director: Well, I certainly wish you luck.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Director: I wish you luck.
Prabhupada: Hm, thank you.
Director: As a public servant that you reform society as your life. To carry out the instrument of...
Prabhupada: So kindly cooperate with us. This is... Try to learn the philosophy, and you will be surprised how nice philosophy it is.
Director: I'm quite sure.
Prabhupada: Yes. So we don't count for percentage. Let personally become ideal man. The same example: There is no percentage in comparison to the stars and one moon. What is the percentage? There are millions of stars. It is, what is the percentage, one and million? It is practically zero percentage. But still, because it is moon it is more sufficient than all these small stars. So produce moon.
Director: Yes, but that moon is big, and you can recognize it, but another man, just another star...
Prabhupada: No, that's all right. If you cannot make as good as moon...
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupada: You cannot make, but it is possible if they are ideal men.
Director: I know what you're saying, but a person would ask you, you're just a man like me, how, you know... it's not just as a star... that your opinion, just like...
Prabhupada: No, if you approve this method you can cooperate in so many ways. First of all you have to see what is this method, Krsna consciousness movement. That we are prepared to serve you, to convince you, the first-class nature of this movement. Now if you are convinced, try to cooperate. And induce other leaders. You are also one of the leaders. Yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah [Bg. 3.21]. If the leaders of the society become compassionate with this movement, others will automatically follow, "Oh, our leaders, our minister is supporting this. Our..."
Director: Our minister regards himself as a servant of the people, who can be kicked out...
Prabhupada: That is the defect. The people are rascals and they have elected another rascal. (laughter) That is the defect.
Director: But that's how it is.
Prabhupada: So what can be done? Then hopeless.
Director: Well, you can work on the...
Prabhupada: But we are going without depending on these rascals. We are going on. We are publishing our books, we are making our movement, we honestly trying. That's all. That we are doing all over the world.
Director: All we can do is allow you to convince the population differently.
Prabhupada: We are doing.
Director: And when you do that, then social welfare...
Prabhupada: Now suppose if we instruct a man, "Please do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection?
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupada: If I advise somebody that "Do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection?
Director:. Yes, I have...
Prabhupada: You have illicit... If I say...
Director: I like sex, and my wife likes sex. We just enjoy, we couldn't live without it. Our marriage is happier because we have sex.
Prabhupada: Just see. (chuckling) This is the position.
Director: That is the position. We are both...
Prabhupada: So how they have accepted? (Referring to disciples)
Director: I don't know. I don't know, but I couldn't. Our life is enjoying sex, and our marriage is happier with sex.
Prabhupada: No, we don't prohibit sex. But we prohibit...
Director: ...don't have two children...
Prabhupada: ...illicit sex.
Director: Well, we use the pill, or use contraceptives, use all kind of things. Because it makes our...
Prabhupada: Why do you use contraceptive?
Director: Because don't want any more children.
Prabhupada: Then why don't you stop sex?
Director: Because we like sex.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Director: Because we enjoy it.
Prabhupada: That means you go to physician, "I want to do everything I like; still I want treatment." This is the position. You want...
Director: I didn't come for treatment. (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, no, I say... (laughs) No, no, you have come for treatment here because you have failed to control the society, your activities; therefore you have come here, treatment. But when I prescribe medicine, you don't accept.
Director: I haven't come for treatment.
Prabhupada: No... yes. Otherwise why you come?
Director: I was invited.
Prabhupada: Just to help you in your social activities, social welfare activities. To take some suggestion from us. But when we give the suggestion, you reject it. That is your position. You have come here to take some suggestion so that you can make your activities very nice, but when we suggest you reject it.
Director: I'm two people -- I'm myself and I'm a public servant.
Prabhupada: Any, anyone. That is the position. For treatment we go to a physician, and the physician prescribes medicine, you reject it. So how you will be cured? That is the position. When the prescription is given you want to put it in the votes of other patients. What the patient will know about the prescription? They are patients. There is no question of...
Director: If I would come here and want to join your movement I would accept it.
Prabhupada: No, you join or not join, you have come here to consult us if we can help your activities. But when we prescribe, you do not accept it. That is your position.
Devotee: He has to go now, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Give him prasada, just... So, to, actually to make the whole human society happy, this God consciousness movement must spread.
Director: Well, I'll certainly report back. Thank you very much for seeing me.
Prabhupada: Just little wait.
Devotee: We have some nice foodstuffs which we're just preparing to (indistinct). It's a custom. Srila Prabhupada said to give prasadam to everyone.
Prabhupada: It is our custom that if anyone comes, he should be offered a nice seat and given some eatables. Yes.
Director: How long will you be staying in Melbourne?
Prabhupada: I am going day after tomorrow.
Director: Have you seen many people in Melbourne?
Prabhupada: They are daily one or two gentlemen, like you they are coming. But they find our prescription very strict. (laughter) And... but we are not going to change it. We are not after vox populi. That is not our concern. We have got our standard method.
Director: Yeah, sure. I believe that you should have these standards if you want them, if anybody wants them.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is making us successful. We do not make any compromise. This is our method. If you like, you take it. If you don't like, you go away. Don't mind.
Director: If you can convince the society to change, then the public servants will change.
Prabhupada: Yes, we are in the society, we are inviting everyone, they are coming. They are coming. Gradually they are becoming converted to this.
Director: When will you be coming back to Melbourne?
Prabhupada: Next January.
Director: Come again this often...
Prabhupada: Yes. So I am going, but I only hopeful on these young boys. They will do. Take the whole plate. Take the whole plate, it is fruit, it is very nice. Patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26]. This is meant for human being, the fruits. The tigers will not eat the fruits. The tiger, canine teeth, they will not like. We have got different teeth for eating fruit.
Director: It's very nice and sweet.
Prabhupada: So we have got food grains, we have got fruits, we have got milk. By combination of milk and food grains we can prepare so many nice palatable, full of vitamins. Why we should kill the animal? Let the animal live and take it's milk and prepare nice food, full of vitamins. Milk is nothing conversion of blood. So why do you take the blood by killing? Take the blood in a different form, milk. This is our program. Let the animal live peacefully, and if you are meat-eaters, let the animal die and you eat. There will be no charge for it. The meat-eaters, let us keep some animal, take milk, and when it dies naturally, you call the meat-eater, "Please take this." You take the skin free, you take the bones free, you eat meat. Just wait for the death. It will die after all. That much concession I want. But let the animal live without any fear of being killed so it will supply more milk. Suppose if you know that I am keeping you here for killing. Will you be very happy?
Your mind will be always disturbed. We cannot get good service from you. So animal also understands that "They are going to kill us." Therefore you don't get sufficient milk. But when they are assured that they will not be killed, they will give double milk. They do not know the psychology. This is going on.
Director: Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: And if you want to eat meat, let it die. That is our program. If you like, you can accept. Thank you very much. (Guest leaves.) This is the disease. They want to keep the poor girls free for prostitution so that they can enjoy. This is main point. He has admitted. Keep the young girls free, they have also sex desire, and this man enjoy. This is the whole basic principle here in Western.
Devotee: This man, he was of a very ripe age, and still he was saying that...
Prabhupada: Yes, the ripe age, up to the point of death one is sexually inclined. Up to the point of death. There was a minister of Agwar(?). I have told you this story? Yes. At the point of death he was looking to the young girl. That is natural. Unless one is trained up, that is natural. That is maya's entrapping machine to keep the living entity within this material world.
Srutakirti: Sometimes the youth, when we offer them Krsna consciousness, they say, "When I get older I won't be so attached to this enjoyment, so then I can take it up."
Prabhupada: They generally think so, but that is not possible.
Srutakirti: That is not the fact.
Prabhupada: In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub, paying $50 entrance fee, then they spend money for woman, wine. And few hours they stay there and come back. They are all old men. It is very difficult job, but still by Krsna's grace you are accepting this principle. That is great mercy of Krsna. Otherwise it is very, very difficult. One old man, I told you that Marquis of Zetland? In London? So he proposed one of my Godbrothers went, "Can you make me brahmana?" "Oh, yes. You give up this habit." "Oh, that is impossible. That is impossible. This is our life." So in the Western countries that is the life, to have illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, and gambling. There are organized clubs, brothels, hotels, only for this. People are accepting this principle, young boys like you, it is Krsna's mercy on us. Otherwise it is impossible.
Devotee: These old men, Srila Prabhupada, they're trying but they cannot enjoy it very much any more.
Prabhupada: Unless they enjoy with Krsna, it is impossible.
Devotee: They are not finding it so pleasurable as young men?
Prabhupada: And how we are finding pleasure in chanting and dancing? It is a practice.
Devotee: No, I mean sex life.
Prabhupada: Sex life we are not stopping. But sex life allowed only to the grhasthas, householder, restricted. Not illicit sex. We are not stopping sex life. Sex life is required. But under rules. And if you enjoy illicit sex, then the whole society is spoiled. You make the innocent girls spoiled. And they have no other business than prostitution. That means you put the society into chaotic condition. The young girls they become cheap, you enjoy, then you become irresponsible. You have no family encumbrances, and you do not know how to maintain the family. That is the position. What is this welfare? Because the young boys enjoy the young girls and they get children, the government has to support.
Devotee: That's the cause of this whole problem.
Prabhupada: Yes, the welfare department is for that purpose only.
Devotee: And he's the head of the department.
Prabhupada: He also does the same thing. He does not know how to cure it.
Devotee: He said that "I could not live without illicit sex life."
Prabhupada: Yes. Mostly the bachelor daddy. They pose themself as bachelor, but they are having at least three times sex with contraceptive method, you see. This is going on. And they are accepted as standard. And if you want to reform it, then it is (indistinct). The whole basic wrong is they have become godless animals, that's all. The only method is this Krsna consciousness. There is no other second method. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Krsna conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Krsna conscious they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. (to devotee:) I think you should continue as a grhastha for the time being.
Devotee: Yes, I think so.
Prabhupada: Unless you are ripe old age. At least up to fifty years. What is your age now?
Devotee: Um, twenty-eight.
Prabhupada: Twenty-eight. So up to fifty years you remain grhastha and take care of wife, children. Work honestly and attend the... You prove an ideal grhastha. That will be very nice. Don't change your mind.
Devotee: So they'll be able to take care of the situation there by themselves?
Prabhupada: Who?
Devotee: In Hong Kong?
Prabhupada: They are taking. Panca-dravida Maharaja is there. He is a sannyasi. That is all right. You don't change your mind. You are already trained up about Krsna consciousness, so you try to become an ideal householder in Krsna consciousness. Because we are not rejecting householder. We are accepting everyone. Grhe va thake ha gauranga bole dake. Anyone, either he remains as a sannyasi in the forest or he remains a grhastha at home, if he is cultivating this Krsna consciousness and Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, then he is all right. That is the verdict. So now you are living as grhastha. Live as an ideal grhastha, don't change your mind. Be fixed up. They are all grhasthas, all these Panca-tattva, you see? Advaita Prabhu was a grhastha. He did not take sannyasa. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu also was married. Nityananda Prabhu was grhastha. They were all grhasthas, but ideal grhastha. So you become an ideal grhastha. That also wanted.
Grhastha is also called asrama, grhastha-asrama. As sannyasa is called asrama, similarly grhastha is called asrama. Anywhere cultivation of Krsna consciousness is going on, that is asrama. Now it depends on my personal convenience either I remain as grhastha or I be a sannyasi. But when you have accepted the grhastha life, so that's all right. Remain at least for fifty years. Then you can give up when your children are grown up. You just give them education, settle them, then you can leave home. That is grhastha-asrama. So, we shall... That's all. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare --
May 21, 1975, Melbourne
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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