Rome, May 28, 1974
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Prabhupada:Dhananjaya: In
Greenland?Prabhupada: Others cannot live locally.
Satsvarupa: That's not their karma?
Prabhupada: No, karma is there. That is another point. My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating. And how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally?
Satsvarupa: One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won't know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow.
Prabhupada: No. They may go sometimes. Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking. It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment, it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country. That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective.
Dhananjaya: But people say they travel for education.
Prabhupada: What education? Hippies? Your education has ended into hippies. Finish that education, nonsense education. Now, you have seen in Harmonist that the school children, they are having sex intercourse publicly, and they are running naked in America. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Yes It's a very big thing now, running naked.
Dhananjaya: It's called "streaking."
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the nonsense education, result is like that. Is that education? I first, when I saw in Honolulu University -- all hippies, all the students, half naked and niggardly dressed. Why so many? They are all students. You see? It has become a fashion. This is the education. And one commissioner has... You have not seen our Harmonist prepared. Collapse.
Satsvarupa: I saw it yesterday. The president of Temple University, he said this was good, this running naked.
Prabhupada: And another has that "education has collapsed."
Dhananjaya: They have lost all sense of moral values.
Prabhupada: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now... It was covered by the progress of time. Now they are coming to be naked animals, that's all.
Yogesvara: So this is another problem for Bhagavan's book.
Prabhupada: No, no. That... You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Krsna consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required.
Yogesvara: Before he left, Bhagavan left me a list of questions. May I ask you some?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons.
Prabhupada: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. You have to... These people they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know. So their animal propensities are being adjusted this way, that way, this way, that way. Just like they go to see naked dance. The animal propensity -- he is seeing his wife daily naked, and still he is going to see naked dance, and paying some fees. Because they have no engagement except this animalism. Is it not? So what is the use of going to see another woman naked? You are seeing every day, every night, your wife naked. Why you are... Because they have no other engagement. The animals. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. That a dog, it does not know what is the taste. He is simply chewing the, one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement. So this whole society is animal. Especially the westerners. And they have developed a civilization on that animal propensities, means "I am this body, and the best use of my life is to gratify senses." This is animal. "I am this body." Body means the senses. "And to satisfy the senses is the highest perfection." This is their civilization. So you have to introduce real human civilization. You should not be surprised, an animal, in different shapes, in different capacity, comes out. After all, he is an animal. The basic principle is animalism. Because he is thinking, "I am this body..." As the dog is thinking, "I am dog, very stout and strong dog," so another man is thinking, "I am big nation." But what is the basic principle? A dog is also thinking on the basis of his body, and this big nation is also thinking on the basis of body. So there is no difference between this dog and this big nation. The only difference is that human being, by nature's gift, he got better senses. So... And he has no power, or there is no education to utilize the better senses, how to advance spiritually and get out of this material world. That he has no sense. He is simply using that better intelligence for animalism. This is the meaning. He has no education how to utilize the better intelligence. Therefore he is utilizing only in animalism. And people all over the world, when they see the westerners, "They are advanced." What is that? Advancing in animalism. Basic principle remains the animalism. They become surprised. They also imitate. So they are expanding animalism, animal civilization. Now we have to counteract for the benefit of the human civilization.
Satsvarupa: They are so ignorant that...
Prabhupada: An animal is always ignorant.
Satsvarupa: When we stress on this point, they become very shocked that we talk like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na...(?)
Satsvarupa: "You are calling us animals?"
Prabhupada: Yes, they are animals. Yes. If they are sensible, they can understand, now, what is the difference. A dog is thinking, "I am very stout and strong dog." He has, on the basis of his body. And another man, a big American, thinks, "We are very big nation, powerful nation." So what is the difference between these? The basic principle is there, the bodily consciousness. Therefore it is animalism. Is it not? The basic principle has not changed. Suppose a pickpocket... The same story, Alexander the Great and the thief. He was arrested, and when he convinced him that "What is the difference between you and me? You have got good military strength. You are conquering. And I have got my knife and another thing. I am just going and plundering. So you are also plundering, I am plundering. Why you have caught me? What right you have got to punish me? Because we are the same. You are doing in a larger scale, I am doing in a small scale. That is the difference." So he was set free, "Yes." Alexander the Great, he was sensible man, "Yes, what I am doing? The same thing in a bigger scale that's all." So these rascal, actually, they are animals, but they are declaring advancement. What advancement? The same thing: eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That is animal... The dogs also do like that. They also eat, they also sleep, they have sex life. Now they are coming to the dog's life. A dog, just like street, they have sex life. They are coming, advance. This is advancement, that "We have become now pure dog. So long it was hidden, now we are open." This is the civilization, animal civilization.
Yogesvara: So many social reformers will agree with you...
Prabhupada: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. The so-called leader he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. Just see. This is going on. Where is the human being?
Dhananjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.
Prabhupada: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?
Dhananjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog.
Prabhupada: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact.
Yogesvara: So here's a practical problem. People would be interested to know our position on divorce. Here in Rome they just passed a divorce law.
Prabhupada: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is also animalism. So that is your decision. They are animals, and different way they are coming to be naked animal, that's all. The divorce is also dog's business. Dog is having sex intercourse with this female dog and another, another, another, another. It is animalism, That's all.
Yogesvara: But people are objecting that: If we cannot get divorced, then we are forced to live with each other even if we hate each other."
Prabhupada: But hate each other, that's all right. We say what is the use of your sexual intercourse? That is animalism. You avoid it. Our Vedic civilization is to avoid it. Therefore they remain brahmacari, naisthika-brahmacari, no sexual intercourse in the whole life. That is perfection.
Yogesvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.
Prabhupada: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Sukadeva Gosvami. He remained completely brahmacari, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyasadeva, a personality like Vyasadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahamsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are grhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyasi. What is sannyasi? Vanaprastha, sannyasi, brahmacari -- no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacari has no sex life, the vanaprastha has no sex life, the sannyasi has no sex life. Only the grhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed -- it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45]. The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated nicely. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyasa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility. So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duhkha-bhajah. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyasa." That's all. Why you marry? Because he finds that after marriage there are so many difficulties. So irresponsible man. So after there is difficulties; that's a fact. So why should you go to the difficulty? Therefore the conclusion is the married life is not required. But if you cannot tolerate, all right, get this concession, live very gentlemanly. This is marriage. Otherwise for higher sense, higher elevation... High elevation, of course, one who is actually on the higher elevation, he is married or not married, it doesn't matter. But on the whole, the sex life is not necessary.
Yogesvara: So these Italian women are complaining now that their husbands are abusing them, so why can they not get divorced?
Prabhupada: Why do you marry?
Yogesvara: Obviously, they wanted sex in the beginning, but they didn't know it was going to be so much trouble.
Prabhupada: That is our point. Then why do you marry? Just begin Krsna conscious, and you will find, without sex, you will be happy.
Yogesvara: But what do we advise such women?
Prabhupada: Whatever they, others women, they may take lesson from them that, "If these woman are suffering or these men are suffering, why should we marry?" There is a Bengali proverb, dekhe sekhe and tekhe sekhe (?). One who is intelligent, he can see what is happening, he becomes cautious. And one, when actually experienced, then he becomes cautious. Less intelligent. So if it is not good, why you are marrying? Why you are induced by sex life? Stop it by Krsna consciousness. If you devote yourself, the whole life, in Krsna consciousness you will not be agitated by any sex life. And that is yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde. If one is actually advanced in Krsna consciousness, he will deride, "Huh! Nonsense! What is this?" That is Krsna consciousness, advancement. The only remedy, prime remedy for all solution, is Krsna conscious. That we have to say. So answers are all right or not?
Yogesvara: No, very nice. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Krsna prasadam and chant whole day and night Hare Krsna. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called
Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada, the way you've been describing our solutions to the problems of the world, they seem to be on two levels. One is the extended solution, that is to say, the ultimate solution of Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of extended. You keep yourself in a limited solution. And then, when it is appreciated it will be automatically extended. You don't touch the extended. You become ideal civilized man. Others will follow.
Yogesvara: Well, for example, ultimately, we want to live locally. These cities are not necessary.
Prabhupada: No, you make the best use of a bad bargain. We shall depend more... Just like in New Vrindaban. They are coming to the city for preaching. So not absolutely we can abstain immediately because we have been dependent so long, many, many lives. You cannot. But the ideal should be introduced gradually. And make it perfect more and more and more and more. But there is possibility. Possibility if you live locally and make your arrangement, you get your foods... The real necessity is, bodily necessity is, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is necessity. So if you can eat locally, you can sleep locally, you can have your sex life also locally and you can defend locally, then what is the wrong? These are the necessities. We are not stopping this. We are not stopping, "No more sex life." That is nonsense, another nonsense. You must have. Marry. That's all. So you can marry locally and live. Where is the difficulty? Defend. If somebody comes to attack, there must be men to defend. And eating and sleeping. Where is your difficulty? Manage locally, as far as possible. After all, these are the necessities of body. So it can be solved locally. Is it impossible? To solve the bodily necessities? What do you think? Is it impossible?
Satsvarupa: No, it's very simple.
Prabhupada: Then do it. Do it. Set example perfectly. This is nice park. Yes. You can have your park locally. Where is the difficulty? Garden. Fruits, flowers, garden. There is park. Also you can have a pond like this. People are doing that locally. In Bengal especially. Whole Bengal was a garden. It was so nice. Whole Bengal was a garden.
Dhananjaya: I noticed this when I took the train from Calcutta to Krishnanagar. Once you get further out, it's so nice, the villages. There is the pond there.
Prabhupada: And... Why Calcutta? You go to the airport. You will find so nice gardens, still existing. Now it is spoiled also. Because people have changed locally to the city. Nobody has to take care now. Otherwise, in Bengal especially, throughout the whole India, Bengal was so beautiful. The Europeans became attracted by the beauty of Bengal. Therefore they made Calcutta their capital, the Britishers. Yes. Every European liked Bengal. Every European. I met one European German gentleman in Bombay. He was in Calcutta. When I was in Bimha (?). So I asked, "Why you left Calcutta?" "Oh, I am very sorry. Calcutta was so nice." And actually. Where we have got our temple, these quarters were known as "Sahib" quarter. Just like our temple is "Sahib" temple. So these Chowringee and Camac Street, Park, these were all European. They liked very much to live in Bengal. And there is another story. One English officer he became attracted by the beauty of a Bengali woman. There is story by Bankima Candra. Candrashekhara. The man was after that woman, how to get it. That is the subject matter of story. He was attracted by the black eyes and black hair. Bengali beauty.
Yogesvara: Krsna has black hair, too.
Prabhupada: Why do you bring Krsna here? This is all sense gratification. (laughter) But that is very good that even in talking this material, you remembered Krsna. That is very good. You remember Krsna. When childish playing, if you remember Krsna's childhood, that is very good. That is very good. Some way or other, if you get the chance of remembering Krsna, that is advancement.
Satsvarupa: Even if the example is not so clear or good.
Prabhupada: That doesn't matter. You remember Krsna some way or other. Krsna does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Krsna.
Yogesvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem. My workers are striking for higher pay and no one is satisfied So what can I do?"
Prabhupada: Yes, you take to Krsna consciousness.
Yogesvara: Well, he wants to know, "How can I apply that in my factory?"
Prabhupada: You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kirtana and give them prasadam. It will be solved. And give them lecture and philosophy. We can take. Let us have the charge. Then see how we can do. Or you follow our instruction. But that you will not. You want to exploit these poor fellows, and you are coming to us for solution. You first of all give up the spirit of exploiting. Then it will be solved. You have come to take our advice how to exploit them.
Yogesvara: So he would ask, "Do I have to close my factory?"
Prabhupada: No, we shall run on the factory. You give us in charge. We don't want anything from you. Let us manage. I can manage. Just organize sankirtana. It will be solved. Now, these factory men works and goes home. So if you say that "You come early in the morning and you take prasadam here and chant Hare Krsna half an hour," they will immediately agree. Immediately agree. And give them good prasadam and have chanting for one hour. They will be all submissive. Is it not? Will they not agree? At least, they will see that "We haven't got to spend money for our food at home. We shall get nice food here. Let us chant. What is the harm?" And as soon as he chants, he becomes a gentleman. That's all.
Yogesvara: So because we will have cut down his expenses, he will be satisfied with the pay that he has. We would not have to give him more money.
Prabhupada: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Krsna conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Krsna. Then the solution is there.
Yogesvara: So in other words the workers are unsatisfied because they see that the managers are exploiting them, but if they see the managers are giving the money to Krsna, they will feel satisfied.
Prabhupada: Yes, and they will also give. Krsna becomes the proprietor. Everyone is satisfied.
Dhananjaya: Jaya. This is varnasrama institution.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is above varnasrama. It is above varnasrama. Varnasrama there is give and take, but here there is no give and... Here is simply give, no take. That is above varnasrama.
Dhananjaya: So the workers are giving to the devotees and the devotees are giving to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Krsna. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not.
Satsvarupa: It is getting a little late. We should...
Prabhupada: Which way we shall go?
Dhananjaya: Just up here. [break]
Satsvarupa: ...their nuts and bolts.
Prabhupada: No, nuts, if there is demand, let this go on. Why shall I shut down. But we cannot run on this slaughterhouse... (end)
Satsvarupa: That's not their karma?
Prabhupada: No, karma is there. That is another point. My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating. And how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally?
Satsvarupa: One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won't know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow.
Prabhupada: No. They may go sometimes. Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking. It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment, it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country. That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective.
Dhananjaya: But people say they travel for education.
Prabhupada: What education? Hippies? Your education has ended into hippies. Finish that education, nonsense education. Now, you have seen in Harmonist that the school children, they are having sex intercourse publicly, and they are running naked in America. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Yes It's a very big thing now, running naked.
Dhananjaya: It's called "streaking."
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the nonsense education, result is like that. Is that education? I first, when I saw in Honolulu University -- all hippies, all the students, half naked and niggardly dressed. Why so many? They are all students. You see? It has become a fashion. This is the education. And one commissioner has... You have not seen our Harmonist prepared. Collapse.
Satsvarupa: I saw it yesterday. The president of Temple University, he said this was good, this running naked.
Prabhupada: And another has that "education has collapsed."
Dhananjaya: They have lost all sense of moral values.
Prabhupada: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now... It was covered by the progress of time. Now they are coming to be naked animals, that's all.
Yogesvara: So this is another problem for Bhagavan's book.
Prabhupada: No, no. That... You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Krsna consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required.
Yogesvara: Before he left, Bhagavan left me a list of questions. May I ask you some?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons.
Prabhupada: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. You have to... These people they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know. So their animal propensities are being adjusted this way, that way, this way, that way. Just like they go to see naked dance. The animal propensity -- he is seeing his wife daily naked, and still he is going to see naked dance, and paying some fees. Because they have no engagement except this animalism. Is it not? So what is the use of going to see another woman naked? You are seeing every day, every night, your wife naked. Why you are... Because they have no other engagement. The animals. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. That a dog, it does not know what is the taste. He is simply chewing the, one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement. So this whole society is animal. Especially the westerners. And they have developed a civilization on that animal propensities, means "I am this body, and the best use of my life is to gratify senses." This is animal. "I am this body." Body means the senses. "And to satisfy the senses is the highest perfection." This is their civilization. So you have to introduce real human civilization. You should not be surprised, an animal, in different shapes, in different capacity, comes out. After all, he is an animal. The basic principle is animalism. Because he is thinking, "I am this body..." As the dog is thinking, "I am dog, very stout and strong dog," so another man is thinking, "I am big nation." But what is the basic principle? A dog is also thinking on the basis of his body, and this big nation is also thinking on the basis of body. So there is no difference between this dog and this big nation. The only difference is that human being, by nature's gift, he got better senses. So... And he has no power, or there is no education to utilize the better senses, how to advance spiritually and get out of this material world. That he has no sense. He is simply using that better intelligence for animalism. This is the meaning. He has no education how to utilize the better intelligence. Therefore he is utilizing only in animalism. And people all over the world, when they see the westerners, "They are advanced." What is that? Advancing in animalism. Basic principle remains the animalism. They become surprised. They also imitate. So they are expanding animalism, animal civilization. Now we have to counteract for the benefit of the human civilization.
Satsvarupa: They are so ignorant that...
Prabhupada: An animal is always ignorant.
Satsvarupa: When we stress on this point, they become very shocked that we talk like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na...(?)
Satsvarupa: "You are calling us animals?"
Prabhupada: Yes, they are animals. Yes. If they are sensible, they can understand, now, what is the difference. A dog is thinking, "I am very stout and strong dog." He has, on the basis of his body. And another man, a big American, thinks, "We are very big nation, powerful nation." So what is the difference between these? The basic principle is there, the bodily consciousness. Therefore it is animalism. Is it not? The basic principle has not changed. Suppose a pickpocket... The same story, Alexander the Great and the thief. He was arrested, and when he convinced him that "What is the difference between you and me? You have got good military strength. You are conquering. And I have got my knife and another thing. I am just going and plundering. So you are also plundering, I am plundering. Why you have caught me? What right you have got to punish me? Because we are the same. You are doing in a larger scale, I am doing in a small scale. That is the difference." So he was set free, "Yes." Alexander the Great, he was sensible man, "Yes, what I am doing? The same thing in a bigger scale that's all." So these rascal, actually, they are animals, but they are declaring advancement. What advancement? The same thing: eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That is animal... The dogs also do like that. They also eat, they also sleep, they have sex life. Now they are coming to the dog's life. A dog, just like street, they have sex life. They are coming, advance. This is advancement, that "We have become now pure dog. So long it was hidden, now we are open." This is the civilization, animal civilization.
Yogesvara: So many social reformers will agree with you...
Prabhupada: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. The so-called leader he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. Just see. This is going on. Where is the human being?
Dhananjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.
Prabhupada: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?
Dhananjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog.
Prabhupada: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact.
Yogesvara: So here's a practical problem. People would be interested to know our position on divorce. Here in Rome they just passed a divorce law.
Prabhupada: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is also animalism. So that is your decision. They are animals, and different way they are coming to be naked animal, that's all. The divorce is also dog's business. Dog is having sex intercourse with this female dog and another, another, another, another. It is animalism, That's all.
Yogesvara: But people are objecting that: If we cannot get divorced, then we are forced to live with each other even if we hate each other."
Prabhupada: But hate each other, that's all right. We say what is the use of your sexual intercourse? That is animalism. You avoid it. Our Vedic civilization is to avoid it. Therefore they remain brahmacari, naisthika-brahmacari, no sexual intercourse in the whole life. That is perfection.
Yogesvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.
Prabhupada: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Sukadeva Gosvami. He remained completely brahmacari, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyasadeva, a personality like Vyasadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahamsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are grhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyasi. What is sannyasi? Vanaprastha, sannyasi, brahmacari -- no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacari has no sex life, the vanaprastha has no sex life, the sannyasi has no sex life. Only the grhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed -- it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45]. The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated nicely. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyasa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility. So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duhkha-bhajah. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyasa." That's all. Why you marry? Because he finds that after marriage there are so many difficulties. So irresponsible man. So after there is difficulties; that's a fact. So why should you go to the difficulty? Therefore the conclusion is the married life is not required. But if you cannot tolerate, all right, get this concession, live very gentlemanly. This is marriage. Otherwise for higher sense, higher elevation... High elevation, of course, one who is actually on the higher elevation, he is married or not married, it doesn't matter. But on the whole, the sex life is not necessary.
Yogesvara: So these Italian women are complaining now that their husbands are abusing them, so why can they not get divorced?
Prabhupada: Why do you marry?
Yogesvara: Obviously, they wanted sex in the beginning, but they didn't know it was going to be so much trouble.
Prabhupada: That is our point. Then why do you marry? Just begin Krsna conscious, and you will find, without sex, you will be happy.
Yogesvara: But what do we advise such women?
Prabhupada: Whatever they, others women, they may take lesson from them that, "If these woman are suffering or these men are suffering, why should we marry?" There is a Bengali proverb, dekhe sekhe and tekhe sekhe (?). One who is intelligent, he can see what is happening, he becomes cautious. And one, when actually experienced, then he becomes cautious. Less intelligent. So if it is not good, why you are marrying? Why you are induced by sex life? Stop it by Krsna consciousness. If you devote yourself, the whole life, in Krsna consciousness you will not be agitated by any sex life. And that is yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde. If one is actually advanced in Krsna consciousness, he will deride, "Huh! Nonsense! What is this?" That is Krsna consciousness, advancement. The only remedy, prime remedy for all solution, is Krsna conscious. That we have to say. So answers are all right or not?
Yogesvara: No, very nice. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Krsna prasadam and chant whole day and night Hare Krsna. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called
anartha, unwanted
things.
anarthopasamam saksad
bhakti-yogam adhoksaje
lokasyajanato vidvams
cakre satvata-samhitam
[SB 1.7.6]
These are all anarthas,
unwanted things. So to stop these anarthas is bhakti-yoga. Anartha upasamam
saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje, lokasya. These rascals, they do not know.
Therefore vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. Vidvan, the most learned man Vyasadeva
has written this Srimad-Bhagavatam. anarthopasamam saksad
bhakti-yogam adhoksaje
lokasyajanato vidvams
cakre satvata-samhitam
[SB 1.7.6]
anarthopasamam
saksad
bhakti-yogam adhoksaje
lokasyajanato vidvams
cakre satvata-samhitam
[SB 1.7.6]
This is all
described. First of all, the first defect is that you are eternal spirit soul.
Why you should be entangled with this material body? That is the first fault.
That is anartha. I am spirit soul. Why shall I accept this material body? That
is my basic principle of unwanted things. And to make solution how to get out of
this material entanglement. And that is... Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg.
4.9]. After leaving this body, now this is the last, and then I am not coming to
this material world. How? Simply by Krsna consciousness. Pita na sa syaj janani
na sa syat, gurur na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. The Bhagavata says
that "One should not become parent, father and mother, one should not become
guru, one should not become friend, one should not become husband" -- these are
the guardians -- "if one cannot release his dependent from this repetition of
birth and death." This is civilization. This is civilization. Not that "I am now
human being; I shall become demigod. Or I am dog, I shall become human being."
The karmis, they are thinking this is advancement. This is not advancement. Real
advancement: no more accepting any material body. That is the real advancement.
Just finish. This sense can come in human form of life, that "I have suffered so
much. I have come through so many species of life. Now I have got sense." So the
reply is there that mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti: [Bg.
8.15] "Anyone who comes to Me, he does not come again to this miserable
condition of material existence." We should take advantage of this. That is
human civilization. What is this human civilization? Jumping like dog, in a
motorcar, that's all. This is not civilization. This is dog civilization, that's
all. And actually what benefit they have derived? They are not satisfied. One
man has got this car, and next year another car, another car. And the car
manufacturer also giving fashion. "This is 1974 edition, this is 1975 edition."
And they are earning money with hard labor. "All right, get a motorcar." And
again, next year change. What is this civilization? No satisfaction. They do not
know where is the point of satisfaction. It is dog civilization.bhakti-yogam adhoksaje
lokasyajanato vidvams
cakre satvata-samhitam
[SB 1.7.6]
Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada, the way you've been describing our solutions to the problems of the world, they seem to be on two levels. One is the extended solution, that is to say, the ultimate solution of Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of extended. You keep yourself in a limited solution. And then, when it is appreciated it will be automatically extended. You don't touch the extended. You become ideal civilized man. Others will follow.
Yogesvara: Well, for example, ultimately, we want to live locally. These cities are not necessary.
Prabhupada: No, you make the best use of a bad bargain. We shall depend more... Just like in New Vrindaban. They are coming to the city for preaching. So not absolutely we can abstain immediately because we have been dependent so long, many, many lives. You cannot. But the ideal should be introduced gradually. And make it perfect more and more and more and more. But there is possibility. Possibility if you live locally and make your arrangement, you get your foods... The real necessity is, bodily necessity is, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is necessity. So if you can eat locally, you can sleep locally, you can have your sex life also locally and you can defend locally, then what is the wrong? These are the necessities. We are not stopping this. We are not stopping, "No more sex life." That is nonsense, another nonsense. You must have. Marry. That's all. So you can marry locally and live. Where is the difficulty? Defend. If somebody comes to attack, there must be men to defend. And eating and sleeping. Where is your difficulty? Manage locally, as far as possible. After all, these are the necessities of body. So it can be solved locally. Is it impossible? To solve the bodily necessities? What do you think? Is it impossible?
Satsvarupa: No, it's very simple.
Prabhupada: Then do it. Do it. Set example perfectly. This is nice park. Yes. You can have your park locally. Where is the difficulty? Garden. Fruits, flowers, garden. There is park. Also you can have a pond like this. People are doing that locally. In Bengal especially. Whole Bengal was a garden. It was so nice. Whole Bengal was a garden.
Dhananjaya: I noticed this when I took the train from Calcutta to Krishnanagar. Once you get further out, it's so nice, the villages. There is the pond there.
Prabhupada: And... Why Calcutta? You go to the airport. You will find so nice gardens, still existing. Now it is spoiled also. Because people have changed locally to the city. Nobody has to take care now. Otherwise, in Bengal especially, throughout the whole India, Bengal was so beautiful. The Europeans became attracted by the beauty of Bengal. Therefore they made Calcutta their capital, the Britishers. Yes. Every European liked Bengal. Every European. I met one European German gentleman in Bombay. He was in Calcutta. When I was in Bimha (?). So I asked, "Why you left Calcutta?" "Oh, I am very sorry. Calcutta was so nice." And actually. Where we have got our temple, these quarters were known as "Sahib" quarter. Just like our temple is "Sahib" temple. So these Chowringee and Camac Street, Park, these were all European. They liked very much to live in Bengal. And there is another story. One English officer he became attracted by the beauty of a Bengali woman. There is story by Bankima Candra. Candrashekhara. The man was after that woman, how to get it. That is the subject matter of story. He was attracted by the black eyes and black hair. Bengali beauty.
Yogesvara: Krsna has black hair, too.
Prabhupada: Why do you bring Krsna here? This is all sense gratification. (laughter) But that is very good that even in talking this material, you remembered Krsna. That is very good. You remember Krsna. When childish playing, if you remember Krsna's childhood, that is very good. That is very good. Some way or other, if you get the chance of remembering Krsna, that is advancement.
Satsvarupa: Even if the example is not so clear or good.
Prabhupada: That doesn't matter. You remember Krsna some way or other. Krsna does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Krsna.
Yogesvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem. My workers are striking for higher pay and no one is satisfied So what can I do?"
Prabhupada: Yes, you take to Krsna consciousness.
Yogesvara: Well, he wants to know, "How can I apply that in my factory?"
Prabhupada: You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kirtana and give them prasadam. It will be solved. And give them lecture and philosophy. We can take. Let us have the charge. Then see how we can do. Or you follow our instruction. But that you will not. You want to exploit these poor fellows, and you are coming to us for solution. You first of all give up the spirit of exploiting. Then it will be solved. You have come to take our advice how to exploit them.
Yogesvara: So he would ask, "Do I have to close my factory?"
Prabhupada: No, we shall run on the factory. You give us in charge. We don't want anything from you. Let us manage. I can manage. Just organize sankirtana. It will be solved. Now, these factory men works and goes home. So if you say that "You come early in the morning and you take prasadam here and chant Hare Krsna half an hour," they will immediately agree. Immediately agree. And give them good prasadam and have chanting for one hour. They will be all submissive. Is it not? Will they not agree? At least, they will see that "We haven't got to spend money for our food at home. We shall get nice food here. Let us chant. What is the harm?" And as soon as he chants, he becomes a gentleman. That's all.
Yogesvara: So because we will have cut down his expenses, he will be satisfied with the pay that he has. We would not have to give him more money.
Prabhupada: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Krsna conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Krsna. Then the solution is there.
Yogesvara: So in other words the workers are unsatisfied because they see that the managers are exploiting them, but if they see the managers are giving the money to Krsna, they will feel satisfied.
Prabhupada: Yes, and they will also give. Krsna becomes the proprietor. Everyone is satisfied.
Dhananjaya: Jaya. This is varnasrama institution.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is above varnasrama. It is above varnasrama. Varnasrama there is give and take, but here there is no give and... Here is simply give, no take. That is above varnasrama.
Dhananjaya: So the workers are giving to the devotees and the devotees are giving to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Krsna. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not.
Satsvarupa: It is getting a little late. We should...
Prabhupada: Which way we shall go?
Dhananjaya: Just up here. [break]
Satsvarupa: ...their nuts and bolts.
Prabhupada: No, nuts, if there is demand, let this go on. Why shall I shut down. But we cannot run on this slaughterhouse... (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- May 28, 1974, Rome
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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