December 3, 1973
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Prabhupada: What is the scientific
question? Mudhah. Mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15].Svarupa Damodara: When they
say about the, how one starts talking about the origin of life, they say that
one should first of all consider how the earth was formed, how this planet earth
where we live, how it was formed, what is the origin of the
earth.
Prabhupada: Earth. Origin of earth is life. It is very simple to understand. Just like your body. Your body is... Or why your body? Take the tree. Tree is matter, it is earth. Wherefrom the big tree comes? From the life within the seed.
Svarupa Damodara: But they say that about 4.5 billion years ago this earth condensed in such a form, but before that there was no living entity because this earth was not suitable for it.
Prabhupada: That is rascal. No, no. You have got history for billions of years?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is that history? We have got history that Brahma was the first creation, and from Brahma... Brahma created this universe.
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that before, it was all gaseous dust particles and some gaseous materials which were floating and in due course it condensed and then it formed this...
Prabhupada: So wherefrom the gas came? That they do not know.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, they say it was just floating.
Prabhupada: Floating where. Wherefrom the sky came? They are all nonsense. Simply speculating and consuming cheap money from the government. That's all. This is their business. The government is exacting taxes from the hard-working men, and these rascals are devouring this money. That's all. And making theories. That's all.
Hrdayananda: There was one big scandal where they found out all the scientists were just taking money. Even by material standards it was unnecessary. It was a very big scandal.
Prabhupada: It must be they are scandals. They are after money. That's all. Not after knowledge. And what knowledge they have got? Simply speculating and befooling other fools. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. This is their business. One blind man is befooling other blind men. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: They are very much convinced that this earth was gaseous. So there was no life at the beginning.
Prabhupada: That may be. That may be that. But wherefrom the gas came?
Svarupa Damodara: It was just existing.
Prabhupada: Bhinna prakrtih. The answer is given. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhih [Bg. 7.4]. Vayu, vayu gas, it came from Krsna. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Vayu. Vayu is gas, is it not?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Air.
Prabhupada: And finer than the vayu is the ether, the sky. Finer than the sky is the mind. Finer than the mind is the intelligence, and finer than the intelligence is the soul. So they do not know this. They capture only middle thing, vayu. Wherefrom the vayu came? Wherefrom the gas came?
Svarupa Damodara: That part remains unanswered. That part cannot be answered.
Prabhupada: But we answer, we answer. We have got the knowledge. The gas came from ether, and ether came from mind, and mind came from intelligence, and intelligence came from the soul.
Hrdayananda: They will say you cannot prove that.
Prabhupada: Yes, we can prove that.
Hrdayananda: How will you prove it?
Prabhupada: You see still, gases, I mean to say, cloud is forming in the sky. But you have no eyes to see it.
Svarupa Damodara: With this background before, then that is why they start saying that before Darwin's theory there should be one. That is called chemical evolution. That is called pre-biotic-chemistry. Means before biological evolution started there should be chemical evolution.
Prabhupada: Yes, that chemical evolution is part of life demonstration. That I have already explained. Just like the chemical, citric acid, coming from lemon tree, a life. It is coming. So all chemicals are being produced... Just like in your body, in my body, there are so many chemicals. Because the body is there, the chemicals are coming. In my urine you will find so much, so many chemicals. In my stool you will find so many chemicals. Wherefrom the chemicals coming? Daily, enzymes, so many other chemicals are coming. Simply the medical man analyzes the urine, and so many chemicals are there. Wherefrom it came? Because I am living entity, the chemicals are coming in my urine, in my stool, in my cough, in my secretion. It is coming. Therefore it is concluded that chemicals are produced by life, not life is produced by chemicals.
Svarupa Damodara: But they are saying that once the seed of life, that is, the cells, the living cells, are built, then it continues automatically.
Prabhupada: Yes, but who gives the seed? That is answered in Bhagavad-gita. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. He gives the seeds, and He is life.
Svarupa Damodara: But the scientists are now trying to make the seed.
Prabhupada: Then kick on their face with boot. With boot, rascal. You are trying. That is rascaldom. We protest against this. "We are trying." What is this nonsense, trying? Do it immediately. Then we shall accept. Trying, everyone is trying. Just like a child is trying to build a house with this sand. So is that very nice proposal, that here will be house? That is childish. Then you accept that you are child in the field of knowledge. Don't pose yourself that you know everything, or your knowledge is everything. That is our protest. "We are trying." Trying, everyone is trying. What is the difference between the scientists and ordinary man?
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that they are coming very close.
Prabhupada: Oh! That is also another foolishness. That is called will o' the wisp. The ass. Ass is trying to get the grass, and the washerman is showing only, and the ass is advancing, the grass is advancing. (laughter) You see. This is their thing.
Dr. Wolfe: But in all humility, Srila Prabhupada, supposing that they would succeed in actually creating the living cell artificially, what would we say?
Prabhupada: What is the credit there? It is already there. So what credit he can get?
Karandhara: Best they just imitated what has already happened.
Prabhupada: Imitated. Just like, that I explained also. The example is that when an imitation barking is there, people go and purchase ticket. And when real barking is there, nobody cares. This is their business. They are so fool that their government is purchasing the ticket, and they're hearing the imitation barking. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: But once they are successful they are going to make super beings they are called super beings, superhuman beings, super animals.
Prabhupada: But they cannot create even an ant, and now they are going to make super beings. This is another foolishness. They cannot create even an ant, moving ant, and they're going to make super being. Just see. And we have to believe them. (laughter) We are not so fools. Your so-called scientists may be fools, but we are not so fools.
Yasomatinandana: You give the example of a potter who was dreaming...
Prabhupada: Ah, yes, yes, That's it. A potter.
Svarupa Damodara: This idea Srila Prabhupada, about the chemical evolution, this idea came from, I think, in 1920 by a Russian scientist. He is a biologist. His name is Oparin. So he demonstrated that before biological evolution the atmosphere of the earth should be, he called, very much reducing. Reducing, that means it must be mostly full of hydrogens, no oxygen, very little oxygen, but mostly hydrogen. Then in due course because of the reaction in these hydrogen compounds and the radiation from the sunlight, then these compounds form into different chemicals which are...
Prabhupada: That is a side study. But there was hydrogen. Wherefrom the hydrogen came? The scientists, simply they study in the middle. But they do not know what is the origin. Just like here is one aeroplane is coming, and you can say, "All of a sudden a light came out of the sea." Is that the study of this aeroplane? If we... the foolish person will see, "All of a sudden, in the sea there was a light." Is that scientific study? So your study is like that. "There was this, and all of a sudden, by chance..." That's it. That is not scientific study. We have to find out the original cause.
Svarupa Damodara: So in due course if they create these amino acids, there are 20 amino acids which are necessary for the body, for the material body.
Prabhupada: But it is already created. What is your credit?
Svarupa Damodara: But they want to do it themselves.
Prabhupada: You may do, but already... Just like there is a soap factory. You start another soap factory. So what is your credit? It is already there.
Yasomatinandana: The big, big soap factory.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is your credit? Yes. You can imitation, make an imitation. And you want to take credit, all credit, for the original creator, simply by imitating. You are so foolish. Why shall I give you the credit? I shall give credit to the origin. That is our philosophy.
Karandhara: When they discover a natural law, they name it after themselves, like "Newton's law." (laughter)
Prabhupada: It is already there, already there, and the rascal wants to take credit.
Yasomatinandana: They adjust a little bit and they say that they have conquered...
Prabhupada: No adjustment. That is another foolishness. You cannot adjust. Even you cannot adjust a moment of nature's law. You cannot adjust.
Yasomatinandana: You just discover it.
Prabhupada: Yes. No discovery. You do not know, arrangement. This is already there.
Svarupa Damodara: Practically they are fighting against the laws of nature, but sometimes they find pleasure in doing this.
Prabhupada: That is childish. Just like they build with the sand palatial building, the children, and they take pleasure in it. That's all. That is children's pleasure. That is not sane man's pleasure. Maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan [SB 7.9.43]. Maya-sukhaya. This pleasure is maya, and they are making humbug. Therefore they are vimudhan, vimudhan, all foolish men. Prahlada Maharaja said, maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan [SB 7.9.43]. The materialists, they have created a standard of happiness. That is maya. That is not happiness. But for that maya happiness, false happiness, they have beget a gorgeous arrangement. That's all. Therefore they are vimudhan. They are so vimudhan, so foolish. Now suppose they have created this nice comfortable civilization, but they have not created the situation that they will be able to enjoy it. At any moment they will be kicked out, "Get out! Finished. All finished." So where is that guarantee that you will be able to enjoy this?
Svarupa Damodara: That is why the scientists are saying that God didn't give us everything so that we can make very happy.
Prabhupada: Then God is there. Accept. Then why do you say there is no God? Then God is life. Then everything comes from life. You have to accept. That is our proposal. If they accept that "God has not given us the capacity," then they are intelligent. They are accepting God.
Karandhara: Well, they say, "God hasn't given us everything because we are not able to live forever here."
Prabhupada: Why? That means God is controller. You are controlled. You admit this.
Yasomatinandana: If these people are allowed to live forever then they will make this place more than a hell, worse than hell.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs) God has given them everything actually, to live peacefully and try to understand God, but that they will not do. They will do something to try to forget God. That is their aim.
Yasomatinandana: Prabhupada, is it true that if a person is very sinful, he reduces some years from his life? If a person is very, very sinful, extremely sinful, then he reduces some...
Prabhupada: Reduce or increase, what is the profit?
Svarupa Damodara: We see the practical example. If you are alcoholic...
Prabhupada: Even if you reduce or increase, suppose you are to live for hundred years, if you make it hundred and ten, so what is your profit? And if you are to live for hundred years, reduce time ten years, so what is the profit? You cannot live here, that is a fact, reduce or increase. This is all nonsense. What is increase? The trees, they have more longer period, increased the period, of life. Is, that kind of living is very profitable? What for increasing? To suffering? Your life is already suffering. Why you are covering this body? You cannot stand here, open body. That is suffering. You are trying to save yourself from the suffering. This is life, struggle for existence. Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. Simply struggle. So if you increase your life for struggling again, then what is the profit? This is... The rascals, they do not understand. Even if you increase, what profit you will get? Your life is all suffering. So the foolish persons, they cannot understand. The real problem is how to stop your suffering, reduce or increase, it doesn't matter. But that you cannot do. You'll have to die. This is your suffering. Nobody wants to die. You have to become old man. Suppose an old man, suffering from so many diseases, and he increases his life. What is the profit there?
Yasomatinandana: That is what they do by heart transplant.
Prabhupada: This is all nonsense. Stop death; then it is an achievement. That's all. Stop disease, that is achievement. But that you cannot do. What is the profit reducing, and increasing or decreasing?
Svarupa Damodara: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes. I am saying therefore, disease, not "This disease" or "That disease." Disease mean any kind of disease. That is credit. That is credit. If you guarantee that "Here is a chemical composition; when a man takes it, no more disease," that is credit. But you cannot do that. Then where is your credit? You simply struggle. The struggle we increase. That's all. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Karandhara: Looks like the water is coming up, Prabhupada.
Svarupa Damodara: The waves are very big.
Prabhupada: Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist?
Karandhara: Now there is a big scarcity of dye, coloring dye.
Prabhupada: Ah, take from here red color. Yes, they can increase the scarcity. That's all. That is in their power.
Svarupa Damodara: But they will try to make more, reduce the scarcity.
Prabhupada: Where is more? Now, because the petrol stock is decreasing, they are disturbed, increase it, increase it.
Svarupa Damodara: So they are trying to make synthetic...
Prabhupada: Again "trying," the same disease, "trying." (laughter) Same disease. Again "trying." That is called... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. They are simply struggle, struggling with the mind. That is their business. Prakrti-sthani karsati. Because he is in this prakrti, under the control of the material nature, prakrti-sthani -- simply a struggle. And mental concoction: "Now we shall do it. Now we are trying. In future it will be done." Manah. This is mind, mental concoction. Prakrti is doing their own duty, by nature's law. Now, by nature's law, the winter season is coming. Stop it. Stop it. Make it summer season. What you can do? Why so many cloths are required? Turn it into summer. You cannot do anything. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani... [Bg. 3.27]. The prakrti is going on, doing its own duty. You cannot check. Now the sun is rising. Now make it dark. Or in the darkness, ask the sun, "Get up." Where is your power? And still you are thinking, that "We are scientists. We are advancing." All foolishness. Just surrender to Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. What you can do? You cannot even know how many stars and planets are there. Still unknown.
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, they say in our universe there are about ten to the eleventh stars. They can count approximately. They say there are about 100 billion stars.
Prabhupada: Count the sand grains, count the sand grains.
Karandhara: They would make a rough estimate.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Even if you make a fool estimate, then still, you are nothing in the face of the creator. Even if you can count.
Yasomatinandana: They are so stupid Prabhupada that they do not recognize that the most important things in life is birth, death, old age and disease. And if they really want to conquer the nature, they should try to conquer birth, death, old age and disease.
Prabhupada: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14].
Yasomatinandana: Duratyaya, very hard to overcome.
Prabhupada: It is not possible.
Hrdayananda: They have a whole new department called gerontology to stop death. In one article they had about twenty different methods, and they said all of them, none of them have succeeded yet. But they were very confident.
Yasomatinandana: Even for them there is some medicine in the Vedas. If they go to heavenly planets they will be able to live longer. They are so stupid, sudra class, that they can't.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Yasomatinandana: Even if they go to heavenly planets by following Vedas, still they will be able to live longer, but by their mundane efforts they will not be able to increase...
Prabhupada: No, nobody... In the material world there is no question of living forever. That is not possible. That is in the spiritual world.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, when the scientists explain why there are so many varieties of living entities, they have an explanation.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Svarupa Damodara: They say, "At the time of evolution, the cells, the genes, sometimes..." Normally the gene is perfectly copied for the next generation, but sometimes there is a mistake in copying. Just like in the printing press sometimes we do some mistakes. Just like that, there are some mistakes along the path of evolution. So those mistakes, sometimes they just, according to the circumstances, they can stand, and they form a different living entity because of the difference of the genes.
Prabhupada: But the mistake is continuing forever, because you'll find the varieties of living entities ever-existing. Therefore the mistake is permanent. So when it is permanent, it is not mistake. It is intelligence.
Svarupa Damodara: They'll say if there is no mistake, there will be only one living entity in the whole universe.
Prabhupada: Why? Because you have got different mind, therefore you create different situation. Just like we are walking here. Not that everyone is coming to join us. Because they have got different mentality. They want to sleep. We want to rise early in the morning. Why this difference?
Srutasrava: It is a great mistake they're making.
Prabhupada: It is not mistake. It is your desire. And exactly according to the desire, you get a body. It is not mistake. No. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, whatever you think, exactly nature will give you a similar body. That's all. That is not in your hand. That is in the nature's hand. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27].
Svarupa Damodara: But scientifically it can be proved that there is a mistake.
Prabhupada: Then that is your mistake. In the laws of nature there is no mistake. There is no mistake. Your mistake. Just like in the railway carriage there is first-class, second-class, third-class. So you have purchased third-class ticket. By mistake, you can go to the first-class and just give him, but you will not be allowed to stay there. So it is your mistake. But these first-class, second-class, third..., that is not a mistake. That is arrangement. Similarly, these varieties... God is so clever that He knows that so many mistakes can be done, and so many varieties are there. As you commit mistake, you enter... "You come here. It is ready." And it is very exact mathematically calculated. Because the nature is working in three modes, so you mix up these three modes, it becomes three into three equal nine, and again you multiply nine into nine, equal to eighty-one. Again eighty-one into eighty-one. So many varieties come. Therefore generally it is taken, 84 million varieties. 8, 400,000. That is already there. Just like government creates a prison house. Although the city is not constructed, but they construct a prison house. Why? The government knows that "There are so many rascals. They will be criminals, they must come here." So it is not government mistakes. Your mistake. You become criminal and come here. It is your mistake. Why should you be criminal? That is your mistake.
Yasomatinandana: And also, if nature made a mistake, then how could nature supply the necessities of all the living entities? After all...
Prabhupada: No, no, there is no mistake. Mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. It is said, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. Under the supervision of Krsna, God, nature is working. How there can be mistake? In the Brahma-samhita it is said, srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-
Svarupa Damodara: They use these terms to explain their proposed theory. This terminology.
Prabhupada: Which terminology?
Svarupa Damodara: Like "mistake" and all these things.
Prabhupada: Mistake, There cannot be... That is the difference between God and ourself. We are living entity, God is also living entity. But He has no four defects. We have got four defects. We commit mistake, we are illusioned, our senses are imperfect, and we cheat. God does not do all these things. That is the difference between God and ourselves. He does not commit mistake. He is not illusioned. He does not cheat, and His senses are perfect. Vedaham samatitani [Bg. 7.26].
Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, in technological enlargement or prolongation of our senses, we are also defective, of course.
Prabhupada: Because we are defective. This material existence means defective existence. This defection not there.
Dr. Wolfe: All the microscopes, and electric things, all these things, they are also defective.
Prabhupada: Because it is made by the imperfect senses. So it must be defective. If you construct something with your defective knowledge, then it must be defective.
Karandhara: Even if they make a perfect microscope they still have to look at it through their defective eyes. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes. That's it. This is going on. Therefore whatever they are saying, they are all defective. Yes. That is our conclusion.
Svarupa Damodara: So it is just like playing with fire.
Prabhupada: Mudha mudha mudha mudha. Defective means mudha.
Svarupa Damodara: But they seem to be quite satisfied.
Prabhupada: That, ass is also satisfied. By unnecessarily carrying the load of the washerman, he is satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. Even the worms of the stool, he is satisfied. (laughs) That is nature's law. He is satisfied. So this satisfaction
Karandhara: The saying is "Even the pauper is proud of his penny."
Prabhupada: Yes. He is also... You see... In Vrndavana I showed you? The dogs were starving, but as soon as he gets another female dog, oh, he is satisfied. To have sex. Oh. You see. So is that satisfaction? He is starving. The belly has gone down, and still, he is satisfied with sex. You see.
Svarupa Damodara: That's called illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is illusion. Actually, he is not satisfied.
Karandhara: You once gave the example, Prabhupada of the drunkards in New York.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Karandhara: If they just get a bottle of wine they are satisfied even though they are freezing and starving and have no place to stay.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are satisfied. Real satisfaction will prevail when one knows God. That is real satisfaction. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29]. A devotee will see how by God's design the sea is working, how the sky is staying, how the sun is rising. He is satisfied, "Oh, how my Lord is great, how He has arranged." That is satisfaction
Svarupa Damodara: But Srila Prabhupada, the living entities, the jivatma within the..., and the Paramatma within, why the living entities suffering even the Paramatma is directing the living entity within?
Prabhupada: That is not very difficult. Government is always with you, but why you are suffering, and why one is enjoying? Government is not partial. You have created your situation to suffer. That's all. Therefore Krsna says that "You surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." But you will not do. You must suffer. Suffering is there. As soon as you are disobedient to God, immediately suffering begins. That is maya. Therefore Krsna says, "Now you give up all this nonsense business. Surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." That you will not do. Then you must suffer. That is the song:
mayar bose jaccho bhese
Khaccho habudubu bhai
That is our preaching, that "Why you are suffering? Just accept Krsna; you will become happy." That is our preaching. So long you are under the clutches of... (end)
Prabhupada: Earth. Origin of earth is life. It is very simple to understand. Just like your body. Your body is... Or why your body? Take the tree. Tree is matter, it is earth. Wherefrom the big tree comes? From the life within the seed.
Svarupa Damodara: But they say that about 4.5 billion years ago this earth condensed in such a form, but before that there was no living entity because this earth was not suitable for it.
Prabhupada: That is rascal. No, no. You have got history for billions of years?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is that history? We have got history that Brahma was the first creation, and from Brahma... Brahma created this universe.
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that before, it was all gaseous dust particles and some gaseous materials which were floating and in due course it condensed and then it formed this...
Prabhupada: So wherefrom the gas came? That they do not know.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, they say it was just floating.
Prabhupada: Floating where. Wherefrom the sky came? They are all nonsense. Simply speculating and consuming cheap money from the government. That's all. This is their business. The government is exacting taxes from the hard-working men, and these rascals are devouring this money. That's all. And making theories. That's all.
Hrdayananda: There was one big scandal where they found out all the scientists were just taking money. Even by material standards it was unnecessary. It was a very big scandal.
Prabhupada: It must be they are scandals. They are after money. That's all. Not after knowledge. And what knowledge they have got? Simply speculating and befooling other fools. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. This is their business. One blind man is befooling other blind men. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: They are very much convinced that this earth was gaseous. So there was no life at the beginning.
Prabhupada: That may be. That may be that. But wherefrom the gas came?
Svarupa Damodara: It was just existing.
Prabhupada: Bhinna prakrtih. The answer is given. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhih [Bg. 7.4]. Vayu, vayu gas, it came from Krsna. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Vayu. Vayu is gas, is it not?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Air.
Prabhupada: And finer than the vayu is the ether, the sky. Finer than the sky is the mind. Finer than the mind is the intelligence, and finer than the intelligence is the soul. So they do not know this. They capture only middle thing, vayu. Wherefrom the vayu came? Wherefrom the gas came?
Svarupa Damodara: That part remains unanswered. That part cannot be answered.
Prabhupada: But we answer, we answer. We have got the knowledge. The gas came from ether, and ether came from mind, and mind came from intelligence, and intelligence came from the soul.
Hrdayananda: They will say you cannot prove that.
Prabhupada: Yes, we can prove that.
Hrdayananda: How will you prove it?
Prabhupada: You see still, gases, I mean to say, cloud is forming in the sky. But you have no eyes to see it.
Svarupa Damodara: With this background before, then that is why they start saying that before Darwin's theory there should be one. That is called chemical evolution. That is called pre-biotic-chemistry. Means before biological evolution started there should be chemical evolution.
Prabhupada: Yes, that chemical evolution is part of life demonstration. That I have already explained. Just like the chemical, citric acid, coming from lemon tree, a life. It is coming. So all chemicals are being produced... Just like in your body, in my body, there are so many chemicals. Because the body is there, the chemicals are coming. In my urine you will find so much, so many chemicals. In my stool you will find so many chemicals. Wherefrom the chemicals coming? Daily, enzymes, so many other chemicals are coming. Simply the medical man analyzes the urine, and so many chemicals are there. Wherefrom it came? Because I am living entity, the chemicals are coming in my urine, in my stool, in my cough, in my secretion. It is coming. Therefore it is concluded that chemicals are produced by life, not life is produced by chemicals.
Svarupa Damodara: But they are saying that once the seed of life, that is, the cells, the living cells, are built, then it continues automatically.
Prabhupada: Yes, but who gives the seed? That is answered in Bhagavad-gita. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. He gives the seeds, and He is life.
Svarupa Damodara: But the scientists are now trying to make the seed.
Prabhupada: Then kick on their face with boot. With boot, rascal. You are trying. That is rascaldom. We protest against this. "We are trying." What is this nonsense, trying? Do it immediately. Then we shall accept. Trying, everyone is trying. Just like a child is trying to build a house with this sand. So is that very nice proposal, that here will be house? That is childish. Then you accept that you are child in the field of knowledge. Don't pose yourself that you know everything, or your knowledge is everything. That is our protest. "We are trying." Trying, everyone is trying. What is the difference between the scientists and ordinary man?
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that they are coming very close.
Prabhupada: Oh! That is also another foolishness. That is called will o' the wisp. The ass. Ass is trying to get the grass, and the washerman is showing only, and the ass is advancing, the grass is advancing. (laughter) You see. This is their thing.
Dr. Wolfe: But in all humility, Srila Prabhupada, supposing that they would succeed in actually creating the living cell artificially, what would we say?
Prabhupada: What is the credit there? It is already there. So what credit he can get?
Karandhara: Best they just imitated what has already happened.
Prabhupada: Imitated. Just like, that I explained also. The example is that when an imitation barking is there, people go and purchase ticket. And when real barking is there, nobody cares. This is their business. They are so fool that their government is purchasing the ticket, and they're hearing the imitation barking. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: But once they are successful they are going to make super beings they are called super beings, superhuman beings, super animals.
Prabhupada: But they cannot create even an ant, and now they are going to make super beings. This is another foolishness. They cannot create even an ant, moving ant, and they're going to make super being. Just see. And we have to believe them. (laughter) We are not so fools. Your so-called scientists may be fools, but we are not so fools.
Yasomatinandana: You give the example of a potter who was dreaming...
Prabhupada: Ah, yes, yes, That's it. A potter.
Svarupa Damodara: This idea Srila Prabhupada, about the chemical evolution, this idea came from, I think, in 1920 by a Russian scientist. He is a biologist. His name is Oparin. So he demonstrated that before biological evolution the atmosphere of the earth should be, he called, very much reducing. Reducing, that means it must be mostly full of hydrogens, no oxygen, very little oxygen, but mostly hydrogen. Then in due course because of the reaction in these hydrogen compounds and the radiation from the sunlight, then these compounds form into different chemicals which are...
Prabhupada: That is a side study. But there was hydrogen. Wherefrom the hydrogen came? The scientists, simply they study in the middle. But they do not know what is the origin. Just like here is one aeroplane is coming, and you can say, "All of a sudden a light came out of the sea." Is that the study of this aeroplane? If we... the foolish person will see, "All of a sudden, in the sea there was a light." Is that scientific study? So your study is like that. "There was this, and all of a sudden, by chance..." That's it. That is not scientific study. We have to find out the original cause.
Svarupa Damodara: So in due course if they create these amino acids, there are 20 amino acids which are necessary for the body, for the material body.
Prabhupada: But it is already created. What is your credit?
Svarupa Damodara: But they want to do it themselves.
Prabhupada: You may do, but already... Just like there is a soap factory. You start another soap factory. So what is your credit? It is already there.
Yasomatinandana: The big, big soap factory.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is your credit? Yes. You can imitation, make an imitation. And you want to take credit, all credit, for the original creator, simply by imitating. You are so foolish. Why shall I give you the credit? I shall give credit to the origin. That is our philosophy.
Karandhara: When they discover a natural law, they name it after themselves, like "Newton's law." (laughter)
Prabhupada: It is already there, already there, and the rascal wants to take credit.
Yasomatinandana: They adjust a little bit and they say that they have conquered...
Prabhupada: No adjustment. That is another foolishness. You cannot adjust. Even you cannot adjust a moment of nature's law. You cannot adjust.
Yasomatinandana: You just discover it.
Prabhupada: Yes. No discovery. You do not know, arrangement. This is already there.
Svarupa Damodara: Practically they are fighting against the laws of nature, but sometimes they find pleasure in doing this.
Prabhupada: That is childish. Just like they build with the sand palatial building, the children, and they take pleasure in it. That's all. That is children's pleasure. That is not sane man's pleasure. Maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan [SB 7.9.43]. Maya-sukhaya. This pleasure is maya, and they are making humbug. Therefore they are vimudhan, vimudhan, all foolish men. Prahlada Maharaja said, maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan [SB 7.9.43]. The materialists, they have created a standard of happiness. That is maya. That is not happiness. But for that maya happiness, false happiness, they have beget a gorgeous arrangement. That's all. Therefore they are vimudhan. They are so vimudhan, so foolish. Now suppose they have created this nice comfortable civilization, but they have not created the situation that they will be able to enjoy it. At any moment they will be kicked out, "Get out! Finished. All finished." So where is that guarantee that you will be able to enjoy this?
Svarupa Damodara: That is why the scientists are saying that God didn't give us everything so that we can make very happy.
Prabhupada: Then God is there. Accept. Then why do you say there is no God? Then God is life. Then everything comes from life. You have to accept. That is our proposal. If they accept that "God has not given us the capacity," then they are intelligent. They are accepting God.
Karandhara: Well, they say, "God hasn't given us everything because we are not able to live forever here."
Prabhupada: Why? That means God is controller. You are controlled. You admit this.
Yasomatinandana: If these people are allowed to live forever then they will make this place more than a hell, worse than hell.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs) God has given them everything actually, to live peacefully and try to understand God, but that they will not do. They will do something to try to forget God. That is their aim.
Yasomatinandana: Prabhupada, is it true that if a person is very sinful, he reduces some years from his life? If a person is very, very sinful, extremely sinful, then he reduces some...
Prabhupada: Reduce or increase, what is the profit?
Svarupa Damodara: We see the practical example. If you are alcoholic...
Prabhupada: Even if you reduce or increase, suppose you are to live for hundred years, if you make it hundred and ten, so what is your profit? And if you are to live for hundred years, reduce time ten years, so what is the profit? You cannot live here, that is a fact, reduce or increase. This is all nonsense. What is increase? The trees, they have more longer period, increased the period, of life. Is, that kind of living is very profitable? What for increasing? To suffering? Your life is already suffering. Why you are covering this body? You cannot stand here, open body. That is suffering. You are trying to save yourself from the suffering. This is life, struggle for existence. Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. Simply struggle. So if you increase your life for struggling again, then what is the profit? This is... The rascals, they do not understand. Even if you increase, what profit you will get? Your life is all suffering. So the foolish persons, they cannot understand. The real problem is how to stop your suffering, reduce or increase, it doesn't matter. But that you cannot do. You'll have to die. This is your suffering. Nobody wants to die. You have to become old man. Suppose an old man, suffering from so many diseases, and he increases his life. What is the profit there?
Yasomatinandana: That is what they do by heart transplant.
Prabhupada: This is all nonsense. Stop death; then it is an achievement. That's all. Stop disease, that is achievement. But that you cannot do. What is the profit reducing, and increasing or decreasing?
Svarupa Damodara: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes. I am saying therefore, disease, not "This disease" or "That disease." Disease mean any kind of disease. That is credit. That is credit. If you guarantee that "Here is a chemical composition; when a man takes it, no more disease," that is credit. But you cannot do that. Then where is your credit? You simply struggle. The struggle we increase. That's all. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Karandhara: Looks like the water is coming up, Prabhupada.
Svarupa Damodara: The waves are very big.
Prabhupada: Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist?
Karandhara: Now there is a big scarcity of dye, coloring dye.
Prabhupada: Ah, take from here red color. Yes, they can increase the scarcity. That's all. That is in their power.
Svarupa Damodara: But they will try to make more, reduce the scarcity.
Prabhupada: Where is more? Now, because the petrol stock is decreasing, they are disturbed, increase it, increase it.
Svarupa Damodara: So they are trying to make synthetic...
Prabhupada: Again "trying," the same disease, "trying." (laughter) Same disease. Again "trying." That is called... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. They are simply struggle, struggling with the mind. That is their business. Prakrti-sthani karsati. Because he is in this prakrti, under the control of the material nature, prakrti-sthani -- simply a struggle. And mental concoction: "Now we shall do it. Now we are trying. In future it will be done." Manah. This is mind, mental concoction. Prakrti is doing their own duty, by nature's law. Now, by nature's law, the winter season is coming. Stop it. Stop it. Make it summer season. What you can do? Why so many cloths are required? Turn it into summer. You cannot do anything. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani... [Bg. 3.27]. The prakrti is going on, doing its own duty. You cannot check. Now the sun is rising. Now make it dark. Or in the darkness, ask the sun, "Get up." Where is your power? And still you are thinking, that "We are scientists. We are advancing." All foolishness. Just surrender to Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. What you can do? You cannot even know how many stars and planets are there. Still unknown.
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, they say in our universe there are about ten to the eleventh stars. They can count approximately. They say there are about 100 billion stars.
Prabhupada: Count the sand grains, count the sand grains.
Karandhara: They would make a rough estimate.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Even if you make a fool estimate, then still, you are nothing in the face of the creator. Even if you can count.
Yasomatinandana: They are so stupid Prabhupada that they do not recognize that the most important things in life is birth, death, old age and disease. And if they really want to conquer the nature, they should try to conquer birth, death, old age and disease.
Prabhupada: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14].
Yasomatinandana: Duratyaya, very hard to overcome.
Prabhupada: It is not possible.
Hrdayananda: They have a whole new department called gerontology to stop death. In one article they had about twenty different methods, and they said all of them, none of them have succeeded yet. But they were very confident.
Yasomatinandana: Even for them there is some medicine in the Vedas. If they go to heavenly planets they will be able to live longer. They are so stupid, sudra class, that they can't.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Yasomatinandana: Even if they go to heavenly planets by following Vedas, still they will be able to live longer, but by their mundane efforts they will not be able to increase...
Prabhupada: No, nobody... In the material world there is no question of living forever. That is not possible. That is in the spiritual world.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, when the scientists explain why there are so many varieties of living entities, they have an explanation.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Svarupa Damodara: They say, "At the time of evolution, the cells, the genes, sometimes..." Normally the gene is perfectly copied for the next generation, but sometimes there is a mistake in copying. Just like in the printing press sometimes we do some mistakes. Just like that, there are some mistakes along the path of evolution. So those mistakes, sometimes they just, according to the circumstances, they can stand, and they form a different living entity because of the difference of the genes.
Prabhupada: But the mistake is continuing forever, because you'll find the varieties of living entities ever-existing. Therefore the mistake is permanent. So when it is permanent, it is not mistake. It is intelligence.
Svarupa Damodara: They'll say if there is no mistake, there will be only one living entity in the whole universe.
Prabhupada: Why? Because you have got different mind, therefore you create different situation. Just like we are walking here. Not that everyone is coming to join us. Because they have got different mentality. They want to sleep. We want to rise early in the morning. Why this difference?
Srutasrava: It is a great mistake they're making.
Prabhupada: It is not mistake. It is your desire. And exactly according to the desire, you get a body. It is not mistake. No. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, whatever you think, exactly nature will give you a similar body. That's all. That is not in your hand. That is in the nature's hand. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27].
Svarupa Damodara: But scientifically it can be proved that there is a mistake.
Prabhupada: Then that is your mistake. In the laws of nature there is no mistake. There is no mistake. Your mistake. Just like in the railway carriage there is first-class, second-class, third-class. So you have purchased third-class ticket. By mistake, you can go to the first-class and just give him, but you will not be allowed to stay there. So it is your mistake. But these first-class, second-class, third..., that is not a mistake. That is arrangement. Similarly, these varieties... God is so clever that He knows that so many mistakes can be done, and so many varieties are there. As you commit mistake, you enter... "You come here. It is ready." And it is very exact mathematically calculated. Because the nature is working in three modes, so you mix up these three modes, it becomes three into three equal nine, and again you multiply nine into nine, equal to eighty-one. Again eighty-one into eighty-one. So many varieties come. Therefore generally it is taken, 84 million varieties. 8, 400,000. That is already there. Just like government creates a prison house. Although the city is not constructed, but they construct a prison house. Why? The government knows that "There are so many rascals. They will be criminals, they must come here." So it is not government mistakes. Your mistake. You become criminal and come here. It is your mistake. Why should you be criminal? That is your mistake.
Yasomatinandana: And also, if nature made a mistake, then how could nature supply the necessities of all the living entities? After all...
Prabhupada: No, no, there is no mistake. Mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. It is said, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. Under the supervision of Krsna, God, nature is working. How there can be mistake? In the Brahma-samhita it is said, srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-
Svarupa Damodara: They use these terms to explain their proposed theory. This terminology.
Prabhupada: Which terminology?
Svarupa Damodara: Like "mistake" and all these things.
Prabhupada: Mistake, There cannot be... That is the difference between God and ourself. We are living entity, God is also living entity. But He has no four defects. We have got four defects. We commit mistake, we are illusioned, our senses are imperfect, and we cheat. God does not do all these things. That is the difference between God and ourselves. He does not commit mistake. He is not illusioned. He does not cheat, and His senses are perfect. Vedaham samatitani [Bg. 7.26].
Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, in technological enlargement or prolongation of our senses, we are also defective, of course.
Prabhupada: Because we are defective. This material existence means defective existence. This defection not there.
Dr. Wolfe: All the microscopes, and electric things, all these things, they are also defective.
Prabhupada: Because it is made by the imperfect senses. So it must be defective. If you construct something with your defective knowledge, then it must be defective.
Karandhara: Even if they make a perfect microscope they still have to look at it through their defective eyes. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes. That's it. This is going on. Therefore whatever they are saying, they are all defective. Yes. That is our conclusion.
Svarupa Damodara: So it is just like playing with fire.
Prabhupada: Mudha mudha mudha mudha. Defective means mudha.
Svarupa Damodara: But they seem to be quite satisfied.
Prabhupada: That, ass is also satisfied. By unnecessarily carrying the load of the washerman, he is satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. Even the worms of the stool, he is satisfied. (laughs) That is nature's law. He is satisfied. So this satisfaction
Karandhara: The saying is "Even the pauper is proud of his penny."
Prabhupada: Yes. He is also... You see... In Vrndavana I showed you? The dogs were starving, but as soon as he gets another female dog, oh, he is satisfied. To have sex. Oh. You see. So is that satisfaction? He is starving. The belly has gone down, and still, he is satisfied with sex. You see.
Svarupa Damodara: That's called illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is illusion. Actually, he is not satisfied.
Karandhara: You once gave the example, Prabhupada of the drunkards in New York.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Karandhara: If they just get a bottle of wine they are satisfied even though they are freezing and starving and have no place to stay.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are satisfied. Real satisfaction will prevail when one knows God. That is real satisfaction. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29]. A devotee will see how by God's design the sea is working, how the sky is staying, how the sun is rising. He is satisfied, "Oh, how my Lord is great, how He has arranged." That is satisfaction
Svarupa Damodara: But Srila Prabhupada, the living entities, the jivatma within the..., and the Paramatma within, why the living entities suffering even the Paramatma is directing the living entity within?
Prabhupada: That is not very difficult. Government is always with you, but why you are suffering, and why one is enjoying? Government is not partial. You have created your situation to suffer. That's all. Therefore Krsna says that "You surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." But you will not do. You must suffer. Suffering is there. As soon as you are disobedient to God, immediately suffering begins. That is maya. Therefore Krsna says, "Now you give up all this nonsense business. Surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." That you will not do. Then you must suffer. That is the song:
mayar bose jaccho bhese
Khaccho habudubu bhai
That is our preaching, that "Why you are suffering? Just accept Krsna; you will become happy." That is our preaching. So long you are under the clutches of... (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- December 3, 1973, Los Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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