Prabhupada: Theologist? Or theologician?
Devotee (1): Theologian.
Prabhupada: Theologian. So how you are going to define
"God"?
Devotee (1): Define God as that Supreme Person who is
complete in six opulences. This is our Krsna conscious definition. It must now
be tran..., seen, brought to the eyes of the Western theologians.
Prabhupada: So, don't say "according to." First
of all you have to define. So what is the... [interrupted by loud car revving
engine]... What is his desire? Huh? Identification with the car: "I have
got this car." Is that?
Devotee (1): Yes, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Just see how nonsense he is.
Devotee (1): Just the simple fact of the..., God being
Supreme, people have rejected nowadays. So if we can simply show them that we
are not supreme, that God is Supreme, that is a beginning platform.
Prabhupada: No, you are... What is their argument?
Devotee (1): Well, their...
Prabhupada: Why they deny God?
Devotee (1): They see our argument of, the fact of
natural law -- there must be a lawmaker. They're saying that there is a
difference between our law that is given -- that we have a choice to accept or
reject -- and the, the so-called laws of nature. They say that's simply a
definition of the way things are, and it's simply not nature is forced into it,
but it's simply a matter of, uh, um...
Prabhupada: But you are forced.
Devotee (1): ...chance or, uh...
Prabhupada: How can you say...?
Devotee (2): They say we, we can, we can con...,
gradually come to control the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: No, no. That is another..., means
foolishness. "We can." "We do in future." We say this is
foolishness. If the laws of nature cannot be checked, then how do you expect
that in future you will be able to check? What is his argument?
Devotee (2): Well, they'll say just like they have
conquered so many diseases...
Prabhupada: Huh? Disease you have not changed; diseases
are there. Have you stopped disease?
Devotee (2): Well, they think they are getting closer.
Prabhupada: Again "think" and
"future," they are just like that. That proposition we will reject
immediately, kick out: "No ‘future.' Immediate proposition. You are unable
to change the law of nature."
Devotee (1): They say it's not really a law, Srila
Prabhupada. They say it's simply...
Prabhupada: This is law: You must die. This is law. And
you cannot change it. What do you say, scientist?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, the laws of nature cannot be
changed.
Prabhupada: So then why you are struggling against,
uselessly?
Svarupa Damodara: They try to violate the laws of nature,
but they suffer endlessly.
Prabhupada: Yes, they suffer. That is not possible. You
cannot... These are all not sane proposal, that we shall be able, just like
some Russian scientist said, "In future, by science, we shall make people
immortal." These are all foolish proposal. How any sane man can believe it?
You cannot change the law of nature.
Devotee (2): They say that, in that philosophy, is just
lazy, laziness.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (2): They say that philosophy is laziness.
Prabhupada: Yes. Lazy, intelligent, first-class man, and
[laughing] fool, active foolish, is the last-class man. That is the
calculation. If a man is foolish, at the same time active, his position is very
precarious. He will die. Just like a child: he is very active, but he has to be
taken care, "No, no, no. Don't go there. No, no, no. Don't go there."
But he is very active. So what is the meaning of this activity? Huh? A child is
very active, but his activity has to be checked. So similarly, you are all
rascal fools -- your activity has to be checked. That is Krsna consciousness
movement. Just like this rascal drove his car, vroooom. How long he will go? He
has to stop there, a few yards after. So he is a rascal. That activity is
rascaldom. That is not sane man. He thought that "I am going in
force." And after few yards he has to stop, immediately.
Devotee (1): He gained some sense gratification from the
acceleration, going...
Prabhupada: No. This is childish foolishness, doggish
foolishness. Just like a small dog is jumping [imitates sound], that's all. But
he does not know [chuckles] that he is under control. Rabindranath Tagore said
sometime that "When I was in London, the people are so busily
running...." That time motorcar was not so many; he went about sixty years
ago. So he said that "I was thinking, the small island, they are going so
fast, they may not fall in the sea." [laughter] So this is the position.
What is their fast? Their fast... They are advancing fast means they are
advancing fast to death. That's all. Therefore sane man will try to check them:
"Please become little lazy. Don't become so active. You are going to hell.
You are going to die." But actually, by so-called advancement, what they
have gained? They have gained that their duration of life has been reduced.
This is the gain, practical gain. Now nobody is living hundred years. What is
the average age at the present moment all over the world?
Devotee (2): I don't know all over the world. The United
States it's seventy-two. Seventy-two or seventy-three.
Rupanuga: Average?
Devotee (2): Yeah.
Prabhupada: So United States is so prosperous and
everything... [break] I, I have seen, my grandmother's state. My grandmother
died at ninety-six years old. That is not... My grandmother died in nineteen
hundred forty or fifty years. At that time she was ninety-six years old. My
mother was the youngest child, and she gave birth my mother at the age of
fifty, my grandmother. When she was fifty years old, my mother was born.
Therefore my mother's eldest sister, her sons, daughters, were of the same age,
or sometimes they were, mean to say, elder than my mother.
Devotee (1): They all lived a very long time?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. My mother did not live long time.
She died at the age of forty-five or forty-six.
Svarupa Damodara: Forty-six, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes. No, at the age of forty-six my mother
died. My father died at the age of eighty-four. According to our calculation,
the age is decreasing. In the Satya-yuga people used to live for 100,000 years.
Valmiki underwent meditation for 60,000 years. Now the later age, Satya,
Dvapara-yuga, no, Satya, Treta-yuga. Treta-yuga people used to live for 10,000
years. Next age, Dvapara-yuga, 1,000 years. Just like Krsna passed away. He
left this world at the age of hundred and twenty-five, but He was looking like
a young man. You have never seen Krsna's photograph or picture as old man.
Similarly, in the Kuruksetra we find when funeral ceremony function was going
on, at that time many, many old men were present. So if we have to believe all
Mahabharata... Or you have to believe. Mahabharata means the history of greater
India. Maha means "greater." So Bhagavata says that people are, in
the Kali-yuga, they will reduce their strength, their duration of life, their
sense of mercifulness, bodily strength. In this way, eight kinds of things will
be reduced gradually, and the duration of age will be twenty to thirty years by
the end of Kali-yuga.
Devotee (3): You can see that so much today, Srila
Prabhupada. Many young people look very old because of...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): ...the way they've been living.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have no vitality. From their face
it appears how long he will live. They have no strength, no vitality, no brain.
No brain. They forget so easily. So how they say they are increasing? This is
all symptoms at the present moment. How you can say?
Devotee (3): Well, one of the things they'll say, they'll
say like they've gone..., they go to Africa or India, and they inoculate
everyone against smallpox, and they save 50,000 children from dying.
Prabhupada: Oh. Oh, that is good for you, because you are
using contraceptive, so they will die. That is good for your scientific
advancement, because you don't want over-population. So why do you bother about
that? Let them die. That is going on. One side they want to check death, and
another side, they kill in the womb. This is their philosophy. Then why..., why
they are killing? What is the idea? To check increase of population. Then, when
in other part of the world they are dying, why they are anxious to save them?
Devotee (2): It is ambiguous.
Prabhupada: [laughing] This is their philosophy.
Svarupa Damodara: Once the child is born, they want to
save.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Svarupa Damodara: But when they cannot see...
Prabhupada: Oh, child is already born. Pregnancy means
the child is already born. Can you say there is no child? What is this
nonsense? Therefore I said this is a set of rascals only. Simply rascals. When
a woman is pregnant, why you say "pregnant"? That means child is
already born. The pregnant woman, does..., does it mean that there is no child
within the womb? What is their theory?
Devotee (2): Well they've rationalized it...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (2): They've rationalized...
Prabhupada: But they are animals. How they can
rationalize?
Devotee (2): Well it's animal rationalization.
Prabhupada: Yes. A cat... Dog, cats, he cannot
rationalize.
Svarupa Damodara: It is just like, Srila Prabhupada, the
example that when the rabbit, rabbit closes his eyes...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...so when they close the eyes they
cannot see it...
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore he thinks...
Svarupa Damodara: The child is in the womb. They cannot
see it, so they think that it's, it is okay.
Prabhupada: So it is rabbit philosophy. It is not man's
philosophy. Frog's philosophy, rabbit's philosophy, ass's philosophy. So
therefore they have been described,
sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih
samstutah purusah pasuh
[SB 2.3.19]
These rascals, leaders, they are glorified by another set
of rascal fools, because the whole population is rascal. Therefore they elect
these rascals as leader. That is the mistake. Once they elect some rascal as
leader, and then, being dissatisfied, they make another revolution and they
elect another rascal... That is called punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. He does not
know whom to elect. He elects one rascal, repents, then makes agitation to get
him out, then elects another rascal.
Devotee (1): Since they're all rascals...
Prabhupada: Therefore...
Devotee (1): ...they cannot find...
Prabhupada: Therefore we have to educate them, that
"Elect somebody actually who is leader. Then you will be happy."
Otherwise you will go on electing one rascal, rejecting, and another rascal,
rejecting. So where is your happiness? Therefore we have to educate that what
kind of leader should be elected. You... We don't say that "Elect
me." We simply say that "This should be the standard of leader. Now
you make your choice." Now we have to give them a clear idea, "What
do you mean by God?"
Devotee (1): "What do you mean by ‘trust'?"
Prabhupada: "And what do you mean by ‘trust'?"
You will simply elucidate these two words, and make your propaganda, and that
will be preaching of Krsna consciousness. And if people actually want to know
what is God, read Bhagavad-gita. "Here is book. Read it. With your
intelligence try to understand." And then further progress, Bhagavata. It
is not that we are theorizing. Here is practical: "You learn from
authorized books." So if you make people interested, the another side will
be that your books will be sold more. That is your practical profit. Is that
all right, Rupanuga Maharaja?
Rupanuga: Yes, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: I was thinking...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Rupanuga: ...if we offer them..., if we offer them the
qualifications of, of what the leaders should be...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: ...but they don't see such people, then
would..., at the same time, don't we have to offer them someone to choose
between, the rascals and the devotees?
Prabhupada: Huh? No. Then you become leader. If you
cannot make others qualified, you become qualified. In due course of time you
will be elected.
Rupanuga: The thing is, there's no... Those four regulations...
Prabhupada: Just like there is epidemic; everybody is
diseased. Therefore it does not mean that disease must go on. You take
precaution you may not be diseased, so that you can save others. This is the
philosophy.
Rupanuga: That leaflet they were going to distribute?
Prabhupada: What?
Rupanuga: That leaflet that we're going to distribute?
Prabhupada: Which leaflet?
Rupanuga: Tells the, the leaflet about politics, the
qualifications of a leader.
Prabhupada: Uh-huh.
Rupanuga: Now the leaflet lists those four restrictions,
and the one positive is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. So, now...
Prabhupada: So if you, if you believe in God, so why you
should have objection in chanting the holy name of God?
Rupanuga: Right.
Prabhupada: If it is... You say, "I..., in God I
believe," then you must know what is the name of God, what is the address
of God. Then you can trust. You can talk with Him. So if you do not know, know
from us. We are giving you the name, address, the qualities, the everything.
And if you say, "There is no God," then what is the meaning of this
slogan? [aside:] Shall we go now, this side?
Devotee (3): No, I think we can go around again.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, I have one question.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Svarupa Damodara: I want to know whether there is any
information about the, in the spiritual world, we have any spiritual evolution?
Prabhupada: What?
Svarupa Damodara: Evolutionary process in the spiritual
world.
Prabhupada: No. That is the perfection of evolution,
spiritual world. Evolution means you have got some destination. You have to
reach this. That is evolution.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: So spiritual world means that is the
perfection of evolution.
Svarupa Damodara: But we know that the, uh, the material
world is a reflection of the spiritual world...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: ...but here we find evolution.
Prabhupada: No. Just like a rascal and a gentleman. Both
are appearing like the same, but what is the difference between rascal and
gentleman? That you have to study further. Simply by seeing that "This man
has two hands; that man has two hands. This man has head; he has got
head," so what is the difference? So why you say one man rascal and one
man very advanced? So the rascal has to come to the standard, although at the
present moment they are looking the same. That is culture. That is called
knowledge. That is called culture. When one man is fully conscious or fully --
what is called -- aware of everything nicely, that is perfection. Not by the
superficial heads and legs and dress.
Svarupa Damodara: So his individual soul is completely
satisfied here.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Svarupa Damodara: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Yenatma samprasidati [SB 1.2.6]. That is in Bhagavata. Sa vai
pumsam [SB 1.2.6]. In the human society, why there is some religion? That
religious process means to make him perfect. Otherwise, what is the need? But
these rascals, they do not know what is the meaning of religion, what is the
necessity of religion. Why in the religions taking vow, "Thou shall not
kill"? That means you are imperfect, and in the habit of killing. You
should stop. This is religion. This is religion. So why in the human society,
civilized human society, there is religion? Religion means to make the
imperfect to the perfectional state. That is religion. Or to bring the man from
his hodgepodge consciousness to the perfect consciousness of Krsna, or God.
That is perfect.
Rupanuga: They have made propaganda, Srila Prabhupada, to
separate Church and State, but they have also separated God and country.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Rupanuga: Actually...
Prabhupada: No, because they do not understand what is
God. God cannot be separated.
Rupanuga: Yes.
Prabhupada: Because everything is God. Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. You are now still..., just
like a man in the prison house, he may think that "This prison house must
now be separated from government." Is it possible? Because they are
suffering, so next plan is to make the prison house separated from government.
But that is not possible. You cannot make yourself separated from death,
separated from disease. Can you make separate? So long your body is there,
there must be disease. So how you can make yourself separated from God, who is
everything? Because they do not know what is God, therefore thinking like that,
that God can be separated. But if they study Isopanisad, that God is present
everywhere, it is not possible to separation. Yena sarvam idam tatam [Bg. 2.17]. Just like your consciousness is
everywhere, in any part of your body, similarly the Supreme Consciousness, God,
is there, everywhere. Vedaham samatitani
[Bg. 7.26]. Krsna says, "I know everything." Unless He is
everywhere, how He can know everything? What do you say, scientist?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: God is everywhere. Otherwise how things are
going nicely? How things are made so nicely if God's intelligence,
consciousness, is not everywhere? So if your consciousness is there, then you
are there. Similarly, the Supreme Consciousness is there, everywhere. Then just
like the new season, there this tree also dry or the leaves will fall. The
other trees also fall. You cannot say that season is acting here, not there. It
is acting everywhere. So that season is God consciousness. God wants, "Now
this is the time all the trees should be dry." Automatically it is again.
Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate
[Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8]. His potency so first class that everything
is acting exactly to His desire. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate [Bg. 9.10]. These things are there. They
should study. These rascals of nature. So what is the nature? Nature is working
under the direction of God. This is understanding of God. How you can separate?
So-called church, so-called religion, you can reject. That is God's mission.
God said that "You give up all kinds of so-called religion." That is
also we advocate. The name, so-called... Just like you believe in God, but you
do not know what is God; therefore you want to separate. But if you know that
God cannot be separated, then you do not propose this thing foolishly. Exactly
if the prisoner says that "This time we shall make agitation that there
should be no prison house in the government," that is not possible. If the
government is there, the prison house must be there.
Devotee (1): The day before yesterday a policeman saw
your picture here on this button, and he said, "Who is this man?" And
I said, "This is a man who is always thinking and talking about God."
And he said, "Well, if everyone was like that, then I would be out of my
job." I said, "Well, well, there's always..."
Prabhupada: He will get a better job. We have got
hundreds and thousands. They are always in twenty-four hours engaged.
Devotee (1): But there would still be need for policemen.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (2): Well, if everyone was a criminal, he'd also
be out of a job.
Prabhupada: The policeman means, we are not harassed by
policeman. You may be harassed.
Rupanuga: Now even the policeman is criminal.
Prabhupada: [laughs] Yes. Everyone is criminal. If the
president is criminal, then what to speak of others?
Rupanuga: So the biggest problem in the government today
is the lying. The people, in a recent poll conducted by the United States
Senate...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: ...the people indicated that the greatest thing
that they were worried about was the cheating in the government. That is, that
the honesty...
Prabhupada: Therefore our proposition that this should be
the standard of leaders. Then you will get nice leaders.
Rupanuga: In the court, Srila Prabhupada, when they
say..., when they ask a man to testify, they ask him to raise his hand and say,
"Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?" And then the man lies.
Prabhupada: Ah, no...
Rupanuga: So there's no God con..., not even at that one
moment is there any God consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: So God and the country have not been separated.
Actually, God is right in the center...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: ...of the government.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: But, but they're lying in His name.
Prabhupada: Yes. That, because they do not know it;
therefore it is our duty to educate them to know what is God. People will
appreciate. If you do not know something, and if I try to give you information,
what reason you have got that you shall not accept it?
Devotee (1): There are certain qualifications for
accepting it, though.
Prabhupada: No, accepting is another. Let us discuss. I
give you some information, then if you think it is proper, you have to take it.
Rupanuga: But you have to be the example.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Rupanuga: But we have to be the example.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Rupanuga: That..., that..., that is the best way to
teach, isn't it, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: By example.
Prabhupada: Know. Therefore it is called apani acari
prabhu jivere sikhaya. You must behave yourself fully God conscious, then you
can teach God consciousness. If you are a butcher, and if you teach God
consciousness [laughs], that is incompatible. That will not work.
Rupanuga: So on the plane yesterday, Srila Prabhupada, I
was preaching to a businessman and telling... We were discussing all the lying
and cheating, and how these leaders have to be changed. And I gave him the
qualifications of leadership. And we went down them one by one, and I explained
them. And I asked him what he thought, and he liked the idea.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: And a lot of young people I've been talking to,
they like the idea that we're entering into politics.
Prabhupada: Simply..., simply we have to make propaganda.
People will like it.
Devotee (1): But now in the Vedic days the ksatriyas,
they did not always follow all, what we consider regulative principles.
Prabhupada: No, no. That is not ksatriya. According to
Bhagavad-gita, you do not follow the ksatriya rules and regulations, you are
not a ksatriya. That is government duty. But the government is third class.
Government's duty is to see that what you profess, you act. Just like
government gives license that, what is called, restaurant. So if you want to
maintain the restaurant, then you must follow the rules and regulations. Is it
not government's duty to see? You cannot distribute poison in the name of
restaurant. Similarly, if you profess to be a brahmana, you must act. Just like
I teach my disciples, "You are now accepting brahmana thread, you must act
like a brahmana; otherwise you will be rejected." Last morning I was
talking like that. So similarly, it is the duty of the head man to see that one
who is professing as such and such, he must act like that. Otherwise he will be
rejected. That is the duty to be seen by the chief man or the chief
institution. Why I appointed the GBC men? I advised them to go, temple to
temple, if they are acting nicely, according to us. That is our... That is the
duty of the GBC. But if he does not act himself nicely, what he will do that?
So it is the government's duty to see that these are divisions of engagement,
brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. So nobody should be unemployed. Everyone
should be employed -- must have engagement. Otherwise idle brain will produce
devil's workshop. That is being done. So many hippies are idle. Government has
no proposition how to engage them. They do not know how the nation is going --
deteriorated. But they do not know. They have no other... Because they are
imperfect. They are imperfect; therefore they have allowed this imperfectness
to make progress. If government is imperfect, they will allow this
imperfectness to go. Boys are hippies and girls are prostitutes, and the
government has no eyes to see where they are going. So this is..., this will
not make any progress.
Rupanuga: The government's demon.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Rupanuga: The government..., the government's demon.
Prabhupada: The government demon because you are demon.
Government means your government. People by the government.
Rupanuga: But they don't care about the young people.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Rupanuga: They don't care about the young people.
Prabhupada: Because they are demons. They have been
elected by demons, and they are demons. So demon's business is sense
gratification, personal. He doesn't care for you or others. That is demon. And
devotee means he cares for others. That is devotee. That is the difference
between demon and devotee. And just like Hiranyakasipu: for his sense
gratification he is prepared to kill his own son. And Prahlada Maharaja thinks
that "Unless I take all these rascals to God consciousness, I am not going
alone." This is the difference. He says, "I am not going alone to
Vaikuntha. I must turn these, all these rascals, into Krsna
consciousness." That is the difference, see, in Prahlada Maharaja and...
The father is prepared to kill his own son, five years old, without any fault,
because he wanted to satisfy his senses: "I don't believe in God, and this
child is believing in God -- he must be killed." He is not prepared to
give little independence to his own son. He never said, "All right, you
will believe it, believe it. I don't care for it. I don't believe it." At
least in this age people say like that. [laughs]
Rupanuga: Yes.
Prabhupada: But you are so demon, great demon, that
"You don't believe... You believe; I don't believe. You disagree -- I
shall kill you." Just like Christ was killed. The people did not believe
in God, and he wanted to speak of God. So that is the difference between demon
and devotee. A devotee is always thinking, "Why you..." We are
planning about this politics, about this preaching, because we are feeling for
the suffering of the people. This is our position. Otherwise why should we
bother about these things? Let them do their duty, and let me do. Therefore we
don't approve that going to a solitary place and chanting. My Guru Maharaja did
not approve. This is all nonsense. You cannot chant. So you will sleep only,
and you will think of nonsense. You must be engaged for preaching work. Soce
tato vimukha-cetasa [SB 7.9.43].
Actually, Prahlada Maharaja said that naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaranyas [SB 7.9.43]: "My dear Lord, I have no
anxiety how to cross this material nescience and go back to home, back
to..." That problem can be solved. How?
Tvad-virya-gayana-mahamrta-
Rupanuga: That is Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: That is Vaisnava. No, Vaisnava... He is also
Vaisnava. He is kanistha-adhikari, neophyte Vaisnava. And this man who is
preaching, he is a far advanced. Just like in a State there are many
philanthropists, politicians, but one politician who has fought in the fight
and given, laid down his life, he is remembered. Just like George Washington.
Because he fought for the country's independence, therefore he is given so much
honor. There are, just like, many politician, so those who are fighting against
the evil, they should be given first position.
Rupanuga: Eisenhower was a hero.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Rupanuga: Eisenhower was another war hero. They gave him
President.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is natural. So the preacher has to
face so many difficulties to preach Krsna consciousness. So he will be more
recognized than one who is chanting for himself. May be right. He is concerned
for his own personal interest, but the preacher, he doesn't care for his
personal interest -- like Prahlada Maharaja. We want to see everyone becomes
happy by becoming Krsna conscious. So this is being taken into consideration by
some of my sober Godbrothers, that "What we have done, and what Swamiji is
doing?" [pause] That we are factually seeing, that these rascals, they
have no knowledge, and they are leading the whole society, and people are
suffering. This is our concern.
Rupanuga: Nixon, they want him to leave, but he will not
leave.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Rupanuga: Nixon will not leave office. Nobody wants him.
Prabhupada: There, just see.
Rupanuga: He's holding on.
Prabhupada: So there is no means to get him out?
Rupanuga: Now they're talking about impeachment.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Rupanuga: But the man who is vice-president, the new
vice-president, Mr. Ford, is a bulldog. He has no qualities. He is not even
intelligent. Then..., then in three years, there's another man who's waiting in
the wings, waiting in the background to take. His name is Connally. He was in
the car when Kennedy was assassinated, and he's got some hero status because he
was wounded.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Rupanuga: He's waiting for the play. In three years he
will run.
Prabhupada: So that as I was speaking, that simply by
changing one demon to another, that will not help the situation. They must know
the right type of leader.
Rupanuga: I think that these men, like Connally, he shows
his demonic qualities even in photographs. I think he would sell the whole
country.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Rupanuga: I think he would sell out the country. He would
let... He would sell out to the Russians for a price.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Rupanuga: They're such cheaters, Srila Prabhupada.
Certainly he would run the other way. These men don't even..., have never
fought. They've never actually led the people. They have no qualities of
leadership, even courage. In this poll I was mentioning before, the people
named five things which they consider...
Prabhupada: No.
Rupanuga: ...to be important.
Prabhupada: The demons will come for election, but if
people are educated, why they will elect? Afterward he has to depend on the
verdict of the people.
Rupanuga: Yes.
Prabhupada: So if the people become intelligent, then
these demons cannot take advantage.
Rupanuga: But the demons have arranged it so that the
people do not have any choice. They choose between two demons.
Prabhupada: Uh-huh.
Rupanuga: So actually they have no choice of vote. Their
vote is...
Prabhupada: There..., therefore your propaganda should be
very strong, so that they can make a choice.
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, these men are so corrupt,
even materially they have no good qualities. It should seem that our
propaganda, if it is presented very strongly and purely, they..., how they can
really pose a very strong opposition? We should...
Prabhupada: Well...
Devotee (2): ...be able to defeat them.
Svarupa Damodara: They will say, "Your philosophy is
ideal. It cannot be attained."
Prabhupada: No. Why not?
Svarupa Damodara: They will say like that.
Prabhupada: Why ideal?
Rupanuga: They can see our men, like Balavanta Prabhu. He
presented contrast, but he did not get so many votes. Nothing. But he presented
a contrast. The people could see and tell the difference between the truth and
these cheaters.
Prabhupada: Now, what we are proposing? We are proposing
that "You don't eat meat." What does it mean? We are advising people
not to eat, or starve? We don't say that. Why they imply? Does it mean that one
man who is not eating meat, he dies for want of food? Why you say that
impractical? Is it impractical?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, it is practical, but, but they will
say that it is ideal; it cannot be attained in the...
Prabhupada: Why ideal?
Svarupa Damodara: ...in the large society.
Prabhupada: Why ideal? Here is meat. You cannot eat even
meat, only meat. You mix with so many salad, roll, and 75% other things. Other
things.
Rupanuga: But the leader, he has to do it.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Rupanuga: If the leader doesn't eat meat...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: ...then the people will, will understand.
Prabhupada: That is, that is yad yad acarati
sresthas [Bg. 3.21].
Rupanuga: The example has to be there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: Even if you say, "Don't..."
Prabhupada: No, he says it is impractical. I say it is
not impractical. It is not impractical; it is practical.
Rupanuga: But it is impractical for these men who're now
there. They cannot take up such, such teachings.
Prabhupada: No. They... That is another. Just like nobody
is inclined to take education, but government has arrangement for adult
education. Because nobody is inclined to take education, you cannot say,
"No, stop us for propagation of education." That is... So whatever we
are proposing, that is not impractical. And even impractical, how you European,
American boys are taking it? It is not impractical.
Rupanuga: Now I've been talking to students. They do not
think that these regulative principles are practical, because they cannot see
people in power doing it. They cannot see leaders doing it.
Prabhupada: No. People, you have put him into power, but
if you, your number is larger, then these rascals will not be in power.
Rupanuga: But the people that really follow our movement
don't even vote. They don't even register to vote.
Prabhupada: That I never did, because I don't...
Rupanuga: Who to vote?
Prabhupada: ...I don't believe in voting a rascal.
Rupanuga: Yes. That's what they tell me.
Prabhupada: I never did.
Rupanuga: Yes.
Prabhupada: I never did. In my household life I never
voted for anyone. Anyone. I avoided. Sometimes they used to come with their car
to take me there. I avoided. Yes.
Rupanuga: But they said to me that if they had someone,
if they had some..., some person to choose, that they would register and they
would vote if there was choice. Otherwise they don't want to vote. So how, how
can we..., how can we do without their vote? And they..., and eventually we
have to get the young people to vote for us.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, the franchisement is bestowed upon
all adult. So if you can educate, educate the major portion, then automatically
it will check.
Svarupa Damodara: Just in a democratic country, in a
democratic society, people should have some free will. So if we impose that
"Don't do this; don't do that," then they'll be disappointed.
Prabhupada: Then you impose so many things. Why do you
impose: "Keep to the left. Keep to the right"? Why do you impose? You
impose in every step. And what is that, if somebody says, "No, I shall go
to the left," can he go, do that? Why you will impose?
Rupanuga: Authority is there...
Prabhupada: Why you impose red light, stop? Why you
impose?
Svarupa Damodara: They say there are some common
platforms...
Prabhupada: That's all right...
Svarupa Damodara: ...which can be agreed upon.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That may be. But you are
imposing. You cannot say that there should be no imposement. You cannot say
that. There is no free will. There is no independence.
Devotee (2): Everything is controlled.
Prabhupada: Ah, everything is controlled.
Devotee (1): But about forty years ago, Srila Prabhupada,
they said, "No more drinking." They closed all the liquor houses,
like that, and it turned out people took to more drinking, but all undercover,
black market. So the government said, "No drinking..."
Prabhupada: That means because the... No, still,
government should have not taken.
Rupanuga: There's no example.
Prabhupada: Government, that, that individual may be
allowed to drink, but he should be punished. That does not mean because
everyone is drinking, so government should take as "Now let us
manufacture." This is not a good decision. If they order people not to
drink, that that order should remain. If their people are making illicit
drinking, then he should be punished. Severely punished. Then it would have
stopped, automatically.
Devotee (2): Well, the politicians were thinking that if
we don't repeal this law, we won't get elected, because the majority of the
people want...
Prabhupada: That is their fault. They want to be bribed,
that's all.
Svarupa Damodara: So the duty of the politician is to
make false promises.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: "I'll do this. I'll do that."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): Ultimately, when they made law against
drinking, they did not give any good alternative program for training
brahminical people at that time.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is another reason. You can...,
you cannot simply ask a child, "Stop playing." You must give him
education. Then he will automatically stop playing.
Devotee (3): Supposing we could stop the slaughtering of
animals in the country. There would be... There'd be big black market in
slaughtered animals. But at least the government level would be...
Prabhupada: No. Now our proposition is to educate people
not to eat meat. Then this slaughterhouse will automatically be stopped. Our
policy is there. We don't simply -- what is called?
Devotee (1): So, a dictatorship, where we just...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): ...ruthlessly enforce something.
Prabhupada: No, we don't want that. We must
be example. [break]
Devotee (1): Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna! Jaya!
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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