Paris, June 11, 1974
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Prabhupada: That is still lower grade
man. But so far experience that "I have not... God is beyond my experience."
Another point that in the Bible, Christ, Lord Christ says that "My Lord, Thy be
hallowed..." What is that?Devotees: "Hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: So God has name.
Pusta-krsna: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name."
Prabhupada: Eh? So he admits God has His name. But it may be that he did not disclose or did not like to say, but there is already name. So it is up to the followers to know what is that name.
Yogesvara: The Guru Maharaji followers say that God's name cannot be pronounced.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: They say that God's name cannot be...
Prabhupada: No, Guru Maharaji is a rascal. Don't, don't take his name. He's not even a human being. (laughter) But we cannot compare Christ with Guru Maharaji. He, he's...
Yogesvara: No, but still, the argument...
Prabhupada: The argument, nothing. He's to be simply kicked on his face. That's all.
Pusta-krsna: Haribol.
Prabhupada: He has no other qualification, this Guru Maharaja. People have become so lower in intelligence that they are dealing with him. You see? They are not even equal to our shoes. You should not utter his name. But Lord Jesus Christ's position is different. We cannot compare with this rascal. He's recognized God's man, Jesus Christ. And what is this rascal?
Pusta-krsna: One of the Ten Commandments, Srila Prabhupada, is that one should not take the name of God in vain. And they argue that when we chant the holy name, they say, "You are chanting, chanting, chanting all the time, but this is taking the name in vain."
Prabhupada: Why vain? Don't you find difference between you and me? Why it is vain? Don't you find what is the difference between you and me? So I... Do you think that I am a foolish man, that I am chanting, "Krsna, Krsna" without any profit? So you can think because you are a rascal, but I know my business.
Pusta-krsna: Jaya.
Prabhupada: You should reply like that.
Bhagavan: Last night, when you gave him the example that the father is beyond the experience of the child...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: At that point, he stopped arguing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. And mother is the only evidence. That's all. Similarly, acintyah khalu ye bhava na tas tarkena yojayet (?). Sastra says that "What is beyond your experience, you don't argue on that point." You go to the authority and take it. Why you should you argue? It is beyond your experience. Therefore you must find out who can give you the experience. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But don't stop there, that "It is beyond my experience; therefore I should not have experience." This is foolishness. If it is beyond your experience, then go to a person who has got experience and take from him. Suppose if I am in this park. I do not know which way to go. It is beyond my experience. Then I ask one gentleman, "Where shall I go?" He'll say, "Please go this way." This is the way. Why should you stop and think others also, that God is beyond his experience also? Why? It may be beyond your experience, but unless you go to a person who has got actually experience, how can you get the experience? (pause)
Bhagavan: He seemed frustrated that he says he's tried, but he hasn't found. He was in India for twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: Well, the thing is that this, actually, to understand Krsna is not easy job. Krsna says, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions." But Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, we are trying to understand little, little. Otherwise, it is very difficult to understand it. And if there is any understanding of God, that is in this Vaisnava-sampradaya, especially in this Gaudiya-Vaisnava-sampradaya. Others, they do not know. They cannot know. Krsna will never reveal to them. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah [Brs. 1.2.234]. If you engage your tongue in His service, then God reveals to you. You cannot understand God.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, how can one remain humble?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: How can one remain humble in executing his devotional service?
Prabhupada: Yes. If he thinks himself that "I am non-entity, helpless," then he can remain. If he thinks "I can do something. I have got so much intelligence," then he cannot become humble. Just like... (aside:) Don't come very near. Just like child is humble always because he knows that "I am completely helpless. Unless mother helps me, I am complete..." Therefore, whenever he's in need of something, he cries, "Mother, help me." This is helplessness. Helplessness. Always. Karpanye. This is one of the items of surrender. Unless you think yourself helpless, you cannot surrender. Surrender is complete when you think yourself that you are helpless. "I am helpless, but because I am surrendered to Krsna, He'll save me." This faith also must be there, that "Although I am helpless... Not although I am factually helpless but because I am surrendered to Krsna, I have no danger. He'll help me, protect me."
Paramahamsa: People often argue that they don't understand how they can have faith if they don't understand God.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: They don't see how they can have faith if they have no knowledge of God. And they argue, "Well, I don't know God. So how can I have faith in Him?"
Prabhupada: You learn from me. I am your spiritual master. You tell him. You are asking me. Why you are asking me? What is...? Why you are asking me?
Paramahamsa: Well, I was just giving an argument that people...
Prabhupada: No, argument, that's all right. Why you are asking me?
Paramahamsa: For knowledge.
Prabhupada: For knowledge. So take knowledge from me.
Yogesvara: That's what you tell them.
Prabhupada: "Otherwise, why you are asking, wasting your time and my time? If you are asking, you take knowledge from me." Is that all right?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. If... The same example. Suppose I do not know which way to go. If I ask somebody, it is supposed that he knows. Is it not?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, why I shall ask somebody? It is supposed that he knows. Now, when you ask him, then you must take his word. He says, "You go this way." You shall go there. And again, you say, "Why shall I go this way?" And why, rascal, you come to ask me? Is it not? You asked me, "Which way I shall go to go to that place?" I say, "You go this way." And if you again say, "Why shall I go this way?" "Then why, rascal, you come to waste my time and your time?" This is the answer. If you ask me, then you take my word. Eh?
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupada: That's it. And if you think that I do not know, then why do you ask me, and waste your time and my time? Therefore sastra says that "Ask from guru." If you accept somebody as guru, then ask from him. As soon as you ask, the man to whom you ask, he is your guru.
Satsvarupa: Some people say they don't like to talk to Hare Krsna people because we're like that. We always say we know everything about everything.
Prabhupada: Yes, we know everything. That's a fact.
Satsvarupa: They resent it, and they say, "Oh, you people, we can't talk with you."
Prabhupada: You may resent, but we know everything. That is a fact.
Satsvarupa: So how do we deal with that attitude if they're turned away by our...?
Prabhupada: No, no. He's a rascal. How we can...? We know everything, and he denies. Then what is the use of talking with him? And waste your time. Let him know everything. We have nothing, no business.
Satsvarupa: We can't compromise and just say that we don't know.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: What does he...
Prabhupada: No, no. How you can...? You know everything. How you can say, "I don't know."
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: You do not know practically that. You must be also a man of knowledge. Otherwise, you cannot say. You cannot be falsely say that "Yes, I know." You must know. Then you say. But if you think that you do not know, don't say foolishly like that. Then you'll be slapped. You must know also. So how do you know? The next question will be: "How do you know everything?"
Satsvarupa: It's not that I am great, but it's the authority of my spiritual master and the sastras.
Prabhupada: Yes. Or Krsna. Krsna is great. So I am talking of what Krsna has said. Therefore I am great, I am knowing everything. It is not that I know everything. I do not know anything, but I, I am surrendered to a person who knows everything. Therefore I know everything. I take my knowledge from Him. So you should think how much knowledge you have assimilated. The knowledge is there, guru-krsna. Guru is there. Krsna is there. So we have to take advantage of guru and Krsna, sad-dharma-prccha, ask him, and become man of knowledge. Then you can say. If you simply think that "I have my guru, and there is Krsna. Now I am perfect," no. You should ask and know. You must be man of knowledge. Then you can say, "Yes, I know everything." Diksa. Diksa, initiation, diksa, this Sanskrit word, diksa, means divya-jnanam ksipayati. To ask from spiritual master with service and surrender the transcendental knowledge. The more you ask, you become a man of knowledge. Then you can challenge, "Yes, I know everything." Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare... Actually, we know everything. Just like when I speak, I immediately ask reference from Bhagavad-gita, and we stop the man's argument. So if you become well-conversed with the whole Bhagavad-gita, then you have full knowledge. There is no need of saying that "I do not know." You'll become full knowledge, man of knowledge. But you must study. Who is this man?
Bhagavan: It's his son.
Prabhupada: Oh, your son? You have one son, one daughter?
Devotee Man: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is your name?
Devotee: Bhakti dasa.
Child: Bhakti dasa.
Prabhupada: Oh! You do not know your name? You ask your father? You do not know your name? You are asking your father, "What is my name?"
Child: No, I don't remember.
Prabhupada: Oh, you don't remember your name? I...
Bhagavan: We began to call him Bhakti dasa yesterday. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Oh, thank you very much. Very good. (laughs) make him a Vaisnava, very nice boy. Very good-looking boy. Don't let him deviate. This is the age to be careful so that he may not deviate. What is the age? Twelve years?
Devotee: Eleven.
Prabhupada: Eleven. That's all. This is the age. Twelve to fifteen years, the boys become, by bad association, they become rotten. This hellish world is like that. They go to school and become demons.
Paramahamsa: Yesterday, in your lecture, you mentioned how in this age it's very difficult to remain chaste or free of...
Prabhupada: Yes, but one who is Krsna conscious, he's all right. Teach him Sanskrit and English and let him read our books. Then perfect knowledge. He doesn't require to go to school. And so far mathematics and history concerned, everyone knows. Two plus two equal to four. It doesn't require much education. Even illiterate man who has never gone to school, he can also count. Eh? "How much money you are giving me?" He doesn't want to be cheated. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Rama... So the fact is God cannot be unknown. If you are actually serious to know God, God can be known. This is no argument, that "God cannot be known."
Pusta-krsna: That is putting limitation on Krsna, to say that you cannot see.
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?
Pusta-krsna: That is putting a limitation on Krsna if one says that He cannot be seen.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna... Of course, you cannot challenge Krsna. But Krsna, if He likes, He can reveal Himself to you. Therefore, you can know God. Just like Krsna reveals. He comes and He... (aside:) Don't... He reveals Himself. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. So when man forgets, so He comes, reveals Himself. And He leaves behind Him the Bhagavad-gita, knowledge about Him. So where is the difficulty? He comes when you forget Him, and He leaves behind Him the knowledge by which you can understand. Where is the difficulty?
Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?
Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.
Pusta-krsna: You've said that the Bhagavad-gita is Krsna's mind.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is Krsna. Krsna is not different from His mind. Why do you say like that? This is material conception, the soul is different from body, the mind is different from soul. But Krsna has no such difference. Therefore He's called absolute. Advaya-jnana. His mind and Krsna are the same. Krsna and His name is the same. Krsna and His words are the same. This is Krsna understanding. Jesus Christ simply said that "Hallowed be Thy name." That means there is name. Now the question is why he did not say or utter the name? Now, there is already name. Why should he utter?
Pusta-krsna: Right.
Prabhupada: There is already name, Krsna. So why should he utter?
Paramahamsa: Is that why Christ didn't utter the name of Krsna?
Prabhupada: No, he said, "Hallowed be Thy name. Hallowed be Thy name." So there is name already. That means he gave you chance to find out the name. And as he came to India, so you come to India and you'll get the name.
Pusta-krsna: He was helping to lay the foundation for sankirtana movement.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Hallowed be Thy name." Yes. This is a chance for others to think, "Hallowed be Thy name." The name is glorified. "So where the name is glorified? Find out."
Bhagavan: I think we can turn around, this way.
Devotee: Let's go up by the river.
Bhagavan: Well, we have to go all the way round the lake to get to the car again.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Nitai: Did you want to know where that was, "Hallowed be Thy name."?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: Were you asking where that was from?
Prabhupada: No, you said. Somebody said it is, Christ said...
Nitai: That's in what they call the Lord's Prayer, which was given by Christ himself. All the Catholics say that daily.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: The Catholics repeat that prayer daily.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Nitai: The Lord's Prayer.
Prabhupada: What is that prayer?
Pusta-krsna: One devotee, he asked to Christ, "How should I pray?"
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Pusta-krsna: He said, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever."
Prabhupada: Very nice prayer. Very nice prayer. (pause)
Pusta-krsna: This is vandanam. Yes, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Nitai: Srila Prabhupada, is there some gradual development in all those nine processes of devotional service, beginning from hearing?
Prabhupada: Yes. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. This chanting and hearing should be in the association of devotees. First of all, one must have faith that chanting is good. Then he should chant in the society of the devotees. Then it will develop. He can chant anywhere. But if he chants along... Therefore sankirtana. Bahubhir milita. Many devotees, chanting together, that is called sankirtana. So one, our movement is sankirtana movement, many devotees together would chant the holy name of God. Then it is very quickly successful. Just like a person who comes to our center in the association of the devotees, after few weeks, he also becomes devotee. Quickly. And there are many others, they are seeing that there is a group like this, but because they do not come, they do not understand. Therefore the quick development process is to execute devotional service in the association of devotees, sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83].
sadhu-sanga, sadhu-sanga -- sarva-sastre kaya
lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya
[Cc. Madhya 22.54]
Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that sadhu-sanga, association of devotees, is very, very important. Even for a moment, if there is association, he immediately comes to the path of perfection. (pause) So if you actually remain a sadhu, devotee, then anyone who will come with your association, he'll be perfect by association. Means, this process of perfection will begin immediately.
Paramahamsa: Our position in preaching should be to encourage people in all respects to associate with us.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: That means sometimes we might have to compromise in certain ways.
Prabhupada: Why compromise? You don't compromise. Then you associate with him. If you make compromise, then you associate with him. Then gradually you'll also go down. When we, when we see some person, we do not associate with him, but we give him chance to associate with me. Why you should make compromise? What is the reason? If you know something positively, why should you make compromise? When people come to talk with me, see me, I don't make any compromise. Do I make any compromise?
Devotees: No.
Prabhupada: Then why shall we make compromise? That gentleman, Mr. Herbert, Gene Herbert, he said that "It has taken eighteen years to write these books." I said, "Still, there are so many mistakes." Immediately I said. And he could not say anything. Do you remember that?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: Immediately I said, "Yes, you have labored eighteen years. Still, there are so many mistakes."
Nitai: Anyone else would have said, "Oh! Very nice."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Eh? I did not say.
Pusta-krsna: He said that morning "What can we do, Prabhupada?" He said, "What can we do? If we do not compromise, we will make enemies."
Prabhupada: No, you'll not compromise; at the same time, you'll not make enemies. That is tactics. If you make enemies, then what is your tactics? You must speak the truth; at the same time he'll not be displeased. That is tactics. If you can defeat him by your argument, then he'll not be displeased. After all, everyone is human being. If you can find out his defect, why he shall be enemy? Therefore, it is said, "You better make a reasonable man an enemy, but don't make a friend fool." You don't make friendship with a fool, but if a man is intelligent, better make him an enemy. Because, because he's intelligent, although he's an enemy, he'll not do any harm. Because intelligent. But a fool, he may pose himself as friend, and he can do anything which is very harmful.
Paramahamsa: So we should be able to see the quality of man we are preaching to.
Prabhupada: Yes, you have to make him intelligent. Everyone is fool, mudha. Everyone within this material world is supposed to be a fool. Because everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So he's fool. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am German," "I am Frenchman," "I am this," "I am that." What is the difference? A cat is thinking, "I'm cat." A dog is thinking, "I am dog." So if somebody thinks that, in relationship with the body, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am...", then where is the difference between the cat and the dog? He's thinking himself as this body. Therefore everyone is thinking, at least in this modern world, the so-called nationalism, everyone is thinking, "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "I am Indian," "I am this," "black," "white." So everyone is fool. Is it not? Yes. He's thinking in a way what he is not. Therefore he's a fool. All these big, big political leaders, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, and in Europe , they fought with this consciousness, "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Frenchman." That's all. Even the big, big leaders, they are fools. And what to speak of common men?
Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: In the United States, there are something called minority groups. Minority group means like the Irish or the Negroes, the Jews...
Prabhupada: They're also fools. Minority fools. They're minority fools.
Yogesvara: Minority fools?
Prabhupada: Yes. Because he's thinking, "I am Irishman."
Yogesvara: Yes, but their point is that "Even if we are spirit soul, we are still being exploited because we are a small number. So we must band together to protect ourselves."
Prabhupada: You are exploited always. Why do you blame this man or that man? You are being exploited by maya. Where is your position of freedom?
Yogesvara: They say, "Well, maya we cannot fight, but we can fight the government."
Prabhupada: Why should you fight? If you cannot... Suppose you cannot... Can you fight with death? Maya, maya has imposed upon you death. So fight with maya, that there will be no death. That you cannot do. So you are always, what is called, defeated. That is your position. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. So best thing is surrender to Krsna for protection. That is wanted. We don't think, "minority." Suppose... Hare Krsna people, how many there are in the Paris City? How many?
Yogesvara: Seventy, eighty.
Prabhupada: So we are not sorry that minority. Where is the...? Insignificant. Don't talk of minority. But we are not sorry. Minority, majority, all these are foolishness. The whole platform is mistaken. (pause) Rupa Gosvami was a minister. He was in the majority. But voluntarily, he accepted minority. He went to Vrndavana and living alone, underneath a tree. He was enjoying so much honor. Tyaktva turnam asesa-mandala-pati-srenim. His associates were big, big zamindars, big businessmen, politicians. Because he's minister. But he preferred to resign that post and become a minority, to live alone in Vrndavana underneath a tree. Why he preferred this? And remaining there alone, he has given you the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. So we have to see how much service we are going to give Krsna. This minority, majority, these are all material conception of life. If you can give major service to Krsna, that is your success of life. I started this movement alone, minority. Is it not?
Yogesvara: Yes, one.
Prabhupada: One only, less than minority. (laughter) The minority, majority, these are material conception. And spiritual is how much you are giving service to Krsna. That is considered. That is to be taken into consideration. (pause) Krsna says Himself, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions and millions of people, one may understand Me." So if I have turned so many people to understand Krsna, so that is service. At least, they are trying to understand Krsna. [break] ...in winter in December, when I was going to the park, Regents Park, all the waters, frozen like stone, and with this stick, I was pushing, (makes sound-imitation:) "Tung, tung," like that. But I marked it that underneath the tree, there was no frozening. The water was there. Just like here is a tree. Just below the tree, there was water. And all around, frozen. The swans were walking on the... But on that place, they were floating. Hare Krsna... (pause)
Yogesvara: Actually, Srila Prabhupada, the scientists say that the life, life first came from the water. They say that life first came from water. In the beginning, there were one-celled creatures that were formed from chemicals in the water.
Prabhupada: That we also say, pralaya-payodhi-jale **. Because the whole planet was submerged in water, so there was life in water, aquatics, fishes. That is not a very new thing. We know it.
Paramahamsa: I have a question about evolution. Our position is that all the species have been established by Krsna, even before creation. But yet, in the creation, it comes about through an evolutionary process?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So the fact that evolution is existing, it's a fact. But it does not exist independent of the fact that Krsna created it and He established it. It's not something that developed independently.
Prabhupada: What is that? I do not follow.
Bhagavan: When Brahma creates the different species, they're not created one at a time. They're... All over the universe, there's different species which he creates?
Prabhupada: Brahma is created first. So he does not belong to the species. Immediately, he's a demigod. So where is the question of evolution?
Bhagavan: Yeah. So you understand? Brahma is created first. So it's not that we started from one-celled animals and worked up to Brahma.
Satsvarupa: But on a particular planet is it like that?
Prabhupada: Everywhere.
Satsvarupa: Are, are there sophisticated...
Prabhupada: In the material world.
Satsvarupa: The human beings are there from the very beginning on the earth too?
Prabhupada: Hmm. They're... Beings are already there, everywhere.
Satsvarupa: But you said it was all submerged in water.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But he's there. Suppose if you live within the water, does it mean that you are not existing?
Satsvarupa: No, but generally, human beings...
Bhagavan: Human species.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: Does the human species come with the gradual evolution or is the human species created first?
Prabhupada: No, in the creation, according to your karma. As you stopped your activities in the last creation, it is, it is just like... It is called suptottitha-nyaya: "A man is sleeping, and when he's awakened, he immediately remembers, 'What I have to do.' " So the annihilation means all living entities sleeping, and as soon as there is creation again they begin from the point where they last lost their life. That's it. It is the same example. Just when you go to sleep, you have a standard of thinking, and as soon as you are awakened, the same standard of thinking again begins. From the point where you slept and when awakened, you again begin from that point. It is like that.
Satsvarupa: So when Lord Brahma created this planet, did he immediately put all the species here?
Prabhupada: No, why immediately? It doesn't matter, immediately. But the living entities come to their new formation of life in that way.
Pusta-krsna: Prabhupada, in your spiritual master's commentary on Brahma-samhita, he states that within the core of the heart there is some desire and that according to that desire, one takes a body in the next creation.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta-krsna: So within the body of Maha-Visnu... Of course, material nature is not covering the con..., the sleeping souls, is it?
Prabhupada: Why you bring Vi...? You are talking of living entities. Why do you bring Visnu?
Pusta-krsna: So the point then is that means one can have a conditioned desire or a material desire even without being in the material world.
Prabhupada: He is already... That I have already explained. Suptottitha-nyaya. In the morning, as soon as you get up, you remember that you have to do so many things. That means it was already there.
Pusta-krsna: Right. Is that just like the impersonalists? They go up into the brahmajyoti, but they have desire. So they have to come back down.
Prabhupada: No, this is not going to the brahmajyoti. Those who..., brahmajyoti, they do not come in that way. They come in their own frustration.
Paramahamsa: So Srila Prabhupada, the living entities, when they come out of the body of Maha-Visnu, they, they...
Prabhupada: In Maha-Visnu's body they simply rest during the annihilation. That's all.
Yogesvara: But then during the creation, the scientists say, in the beginning, there was no human life on this planet.
Prabhupada: The scientists are rascals. What they know? There was no human being? Why not human being? The Brahma is human being. Then you reject the Vedic conclusion. You take this rascal scientist's conclusion.
Yogesvara: No, of course not.
Prabhupada: Then how you can say?
Yogesvara: But where were those spirit souls who were going to take the form of a human being before the human species became manifested?
Pusta-krsna: In the body of Visnu.
Bhagavan: That's just on this planet. But on other planets there's human species.
Prabhupada: Eh? What is that?
Bhagavan: No. His argument is that scientists say that at the beginning there may have been only lesser developed forms of life.
Prabhupada: No, we don't say that.
Bhagavan: Was there always humans on this planet?
Prabhupada: We say the highest developed, Brahma. He's a sub-creator. He's not a lesser intelligent. He's as good as God.
Yogesvara: But on this planet, let us say, for example...
Prabhupada: On this planet, any planet. That is the system.
Satsvarupa: This planet, from the very beginning, there were human beings.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: On this planet, from the very beginn...
Prabhupada: Yes. Brahma is there. The Brahma created so many sons. The Kumaras came out. The Rudra came out. He gradually created.
Nitai: So actually, the creation goes just the other way.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: First of all, Brahma, the greatest living being, and then...
Prabhupada: No. Creation is simultaneously. The Brahma then created ants and birds and beasts and everything. It is all simultaneous. Something is attached with my cloth, hmm?
Paramahamsa: These scientists are very great rascals. We should defeat them and save the people from...
Prabhupada: There is something.
Nitai: In your shoe?
Prabhupada: No, in the cloth.
Pusta-krsna: Oh yes.
Paramahamsa: Actually, you're the only one who has the courage to do that today.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: You're the only one that has the courage to defeat these rascals. Everyone else is surrendering to them.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Hare Krsna. Because I know on the background there is Krsna.
Pusta-krsna: So all your endeavors are perfect!
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Prabhupada: (Getting into car) Openly, I become. And you are all rascals, demons, the scientists, big, big scientists, come. And they tolerate. (end)
Prabhupada: So God has name.
Pusta-krsna: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name."
Prabhupada: Eh? So he admits God has His name. But it may be that he did not disclose or did not like to say, but there is already name. So it is up to the followers to know what is that name.
Yogesvara: The Guru Maharaji followers say that God's name cannot be pronounced.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: They say that God's name cannot be...
Prabhupada: No, Guru Maharaji is a rascal. Don't, don't take his name. He's not even a human being. (laughter) But we cannot compare Christ with Guru Maharaji. He, he's...
Yogesvara: No, but still, the argument...
Prabhupada: The argument, nothing. He's to be simply kicked on his face. That's all.
Pusta-krsna: Haribol.
Prabhupada: He has no other qualification, this Guru Maharaja. People have become so lower in intelligence that they are dealing with him. You see? They are not even equal to our shoes. You should not utter his name. But Lord Jesus Christ's position is different. We cannot compare with this rascal. He's recognized God's man, Jesus Christ. And what is this rascal?
Pusta-krsna: One of the Ten Commandments, Srila Prabhupada, is that one should not take the name of God in vain. And they argue that when we chant the holy name, they say, "You are chanting, chanting, chanting all the time, but this is taking the name in vain."
Prabhupada: Why vain? Don't you find difference between you and me? Why it is vain? Don't you find what is the difference between you and me? So I... Do you think that I am a foolish man, that I am chanting, "Krsna, Krsna" without any profit? So you can think because you are a rascal, but I know my business.
Pusta-krsna: Jaya.
Prabhupada: You should reply like that.
Bhagavan: Last night, when you gave him the example that the father is beyond the experience of the child...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: At that point, he stopped arguing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. And mother is the only evidence. That's all. Similarly, acintyah khalu ye bhava na tas tarkena yojayet (?). Sastra says that "What is beyond your experience, you don't argue on that point." You go to the authority and take it. Why you should you argue? It is beyond your experience. Therefore you must find out who can give you the experience. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But don't stop there, that "It is beyond my experience; therefore I should not have experience." This is foolishness. If it is beyond your experience, then go to a person who has got experience and take from him. Suppose if I am in this park. I do not know which way to go. It is beyond my experience. Then I ask one gentleman, "Where shall I go?" He'll say, "Please go this way." This is the way. Why should you stop and think others also, that God is beyond his experience also? Why? It may be beyond your experience, but unless you go to a person who has got actually experience, how can you get the experience? (pause)
Bhagavan: He seemed frustrated that he says he's tried, but he hasn't found. He was in India for twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: Well, the thing is that this, actually, to understand Krsna is not easy job. Krsna says, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions." But Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, we are trying to understand little, little. Otherwise, it is very difficult to understand it. And if there is any understanding of God, that is in this Vaisnava-sampradaya, especially in this Gaudiya-Vaisnava-sampradaya. Others, they do not know. They cannot know. Krsna will never reveal to them. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah [Brs. 1.2.234]. If you engage your tongue in His service, then God reveals to you. You cannot understand God.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, how can one remain humble?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: How can one remain humble in executing his devotional service?
Prabhupada: Yes. If he thinks himself that "I am non-entity, helpless," then he can remain. If he thinks "I can do something. I have got so much intelligence," then he cannot become humble. Just like... (aside:) Don't come very near. Just like child is humble always because he knows that "I am completely helpless. Unless mother helps me, I am complete..." Therefore, whenever he's in need of something, he cries, "Mother, help me." This is helplessness. Helplessness. Always. Karpanye. This is one of the items of surrender. Unless you think yourself helpless, you cannot surrender. Surrender is complete when you think yourself that you are helpless. "I am helpless, but because I am surrendered to Krsna, He'll save me." This faith also must be there, that "Although I am helpless... Not although I am factually helpless but because I am surrendered to Krsna, I have no danger. He'll help me, protect me."
Paramahamsa: People often argue that they don't understand how they can have faith if they don't understand God.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: They don't see how they can have faith if they have no knowledge of God. And they argue, "Well, I don't know God. So how can I have faith in Him?"
Prabhupada: You learn from me. I am your spiritual master. You tell him. You are asking me. Why you are asking me? What is...? Why you are asking me?
Paramahamsa: Well, I was just giving an argument that people...
Prabhupada: No, argument, that's all right. Why you are asking me?
Paramahamsa: For knowledge.
Prabhupada: For knowledge. So take knowledge from me.
Yogesvara: That's what you tell them.
Prabhupada: "Otherwise, why you are asking, wasting your time and my time? If you are asking, you take knowledge from me." Is that all right?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. If... The same example. Suppose I do not know which way to go. If I ask somebody, it is supposed that he knows. Is it not?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, why I shall ask somebody? It is supposed that he knows. Now, when you ask him, then you must take his word. He says, "You go this way." You shall go there. And again, you say, "Why shall I go this way?" And why, rascal, you come to ask me? Is it not? You asked me, "Which way I shall go to go to that place?" I say, "You go this way." And if you again say, "Why shall I go this way?" "Then why, rascal, you come to waste my time and your time?" This is the answer. If you ask me, then you take my word. Eh?
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupada: That's it. And if you think that I do not know, then why do you ask me, and waste your time and my time? Therefore sastra says that "Ask from guru." If you accept somebody as guru, then ask from him. As soon as you ask, the man to whom you ask, he is your guru.
Satsvarupa: Some people say they don't like to talk to Hare Krsna people because we're like that. We always say we know everything about everything.
Prabhupada: Yes, we know everything. That's a fact.
Satsvarupa: They resent it, and they say, "Oh, you people, we can't talk with you."
Prabhupada: You may resent, but we know everything. That is a fact.
Satsvarupa: So how do we deal with that attitude if they're turned away by our...?
Prabhupada: No, no. He's a rascal. How we can...? We know everything, and he denies. Then what is the use of talking with him? And waste your time. Let him know everything. We have nothing, no business.
Satsvarupa: We can't compromise and just say that we don't know.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: What does he...
Prabhupada: No, no. How you can...? You know everything. How you can say, "I don't know."
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: You do not know practically that. You must be also a man of knowledge. Otherwise, you cannot say. You cannot be falsely say that "Yes, I know." You must know. Then you say. But if you think that you do not know, don't say foolishly like that. Then you'll be slapped. You must know also. So how do you know? The next question will be: "How do you know everything?"
Satsvarupa: It's not that I am great, but it's the authority of my spiritual master and the sastras.
Prabhupada: Yes. Or Krsna. Krsna is great. So I am talking of what Krsna has said. Therefore I am great, I am knowing everything. It is not that I know everything. I do not know anything, but I, I am surrendered to a person who knows everything. Therefore I know everything. I take my knowledge from Him. So you should think how much knowledge you have assimilated. The knowledge is there, guru-krsna. Guru is there. Krsna is there. So we have to take advantage of guru and Krsna, sad-dharma-prccha, ask him, and become man of knowledge. Then you can say. If you simply think that "I have my guru, and there is Krsna. Now I am perfect," no. You should ask and know. You must be man of knowledge. Then you can say, "Yes, I know everything." Diksa. Diksa, initiation, diksa, this Sanskrit word, diksa, means divya-jnanam ksipayati. To ask from spiritual master with service and surrender the transcendental knowledge. The more you ask, you become a man of knowledge. Then you can challenge, "Yes, I know everything." Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare... Actually, we know everything. Just like when I speak, I immediately ask reference from Bhagavad-gita, and we stop the man's argument. So if you become well-conversed with the whole Bhagavad-gita, then you have full knowledge. There is no need of saying that "I do not know." You'll become full knowledge, man of knowledge. But you must study. Who is this man?
Bhagavan: It's his son.
Prabhupada: Oh, your son? You have one son, one daughter?
Devotee Man: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is your name?
Devotee: Bhakti dasa.
Child: Bhakti dasa.
Prabhupada: Oh! You do not know your name? You ask your father? You do not know your name? You are asking your father, "What is my name?"
Child: No, I don't remember.
Prabhupada: Oh, you don't remember your name? I...
Bhagavan: We began to call him Bhakti dasa yesterday. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Oh, thank you very much. Very good. (laughs) make him a Vaisnava, very nice boy. Very good-looking boy. Don't let him deviate. This is the age to be careful so that he may not deviate. What is the age? Twelve years?
Devotee: Eleven.
Prabhupada: Eleven. That's all. This is the age. Twelve to fifteen years, the boys become, by bad association, they become rotten. This hellish world is like that. They go to school and become demons.
Paramahamsa: Yesterday, in your lecture, you mentioned how in this age it's very difficult to remain chaste or free of...
Prabhupada: Yes, but one who is Krsna conscious, he's all right. Teach him Sanskrit and English and let him read our books. Then perfect knowledge. He doesn't require to go to school. And so far mathematics and history concerned, everyone knows. Two plus two equal to four. It doesn't require much education. Even illiterate man who has never gone to school, he can also count. Eh? "How much money you are giving me?" He doesn't want to be cheated. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Rama... So the fact is God cannot be unknown. If you are actually serious to know God, God can be known. This is no argument, that "God cannot be known."
Pusta-krsna: That is putting limitation on Krsna, to say that you cannot see.
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?
Pusta-krsna: That is putting a limitation on Krsna if one says that He cannot be seen.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna... Of course, you cannot challenge Krsna. But Krsna, if He likes, He can reveal Himself to you. Therefore, you can know God. Just like Krsna reveals. He comes and He... (aside:) Don't... He reveals Himself. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. So when man forgets, so He comes, reveals Himself. And He leaves behind Him the Bhagavad-gita, knowledge about Him. So where is the difficulty? He comes when you forget Him, and He leaves behind Him the knowledge by which you can understand. Where is the difficulty?
Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?
Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.
Pusta-krsna: You've said that the Bhagavad-gita is Krsna's mind.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is Krsna. Krsna is not different from His mind. Why do you say like that? This is material conception, the soul is different from body, the mind is different from soul. But Krsna has no such difference. Therefore He's called absolute. Advaya-jnana. His mind and Krsna are the same. Krsna and His name is the same. Krsna and His words are the same. This is Krsna understanding. Jesus Christ simply said that "Hallowed be Thy name." That means there is name. Now the question is why he did not say or utter the name? Now, there is already name. Why should he utter?
Pusta-krsna: Right.
Prabhupada: There is already name, Krsna. So why should he utter?
Paramahamsa: Is that why Christ didn't utter the name of Krsna?
Prabhupada: No, he said, "Hallowed be Thy name. Hallowed be Thy name." So there is name already. That means he gave you chance to find out the name. And as he came to India, so you come to India and you'll get the name.
Pusta-krsna: He was helping to lay the foundation for sankirtana movement.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Hallowed be Thy name." Yes. This is a chance for others to think, "Hallowed be Thy name." The name is glorified. "So where the name is glorified? Find out."
Bhagavan: I think we can turn around, this way.
Devotee: Let's go up by the river.
Bhagavan: Well, we have to go all the way round the lake to get to the car again.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Nitai: Did you want to know where that was, "Hallowed be Thy name."?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: Were you asking where that was from?
Prabhupada: No, you said. Somebody said it is, Christ said...
Nitai: That's in what they call the Lord's Prayer, which was given by Christ himself. All the Catholics say that daily.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: The Catholics repeat that prayer daily.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Nitai: The Lord's Prayer.
Prabhupada: What is that prayer?
Pusta-krsna: One devotee, he asked to Christ, "How should I pray?"
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Pusta-krsna: He said, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever."
Prabhupada: Very nice prayer. Very nice prayer. (pause)
Pusta-krsna: This is vandanam. Yes, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Nitai: Srila Prabhupada, is there some gradual development in all those nine processes of devotional service, beginning from hearing?
Prabhupada: Yes. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. This chanting and hearing should be in the association of devotees. First of all, one must have faith that chanting is good. Then he should chant in the society of the devotees. Then it will develop. He can chant anywhere. But if he chants along... Therefore sankirtana. Bahubhir milita. Many devotees, chanting together, that is called sankirtana. So one, our movement is sankirtana movement, many devotees together would chant the holy name of God. Then it is very quickly successful. Just like a person who comes to our center in the association of the devotees, after few weeks, he also becomes devotee. Quickly. And there are many others, they are seeing that there is a group like this, but because they do not come, they do not understand. Therefore the quick development process is to execute devotional service in the association of devotees, sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83].
sadhu-sanga, sadhu-sanga -- sarva-sastre kaya
lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya
[Cc. Madhya 22.54]
Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that sadhu-sanga, association of devotees, is very, very important. Even for a moment, if there is association, he immediately comes to the path of perfection. (pause) So if you actually remain a sadhu, devotee, then anyone who will come with your association, he'll be perfect by association. Means, this process of perfection will begin immediately.
Paramahamsa: Our position in preaching should be to encourage people in all respects to associate with us.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: That means sometimes we might have to compromise in certain ways.
Prabhupada: Why compromise? You don't compromise. Then you associate with him. If you make compromise, then you associate with him. Then gradually you'll also go down. When we, when we see some person, we do not associate with him, but we give him chance to associate with me. Why you should make compromise? What is the reason? If you know something positively, why should you make compromise? When people come to talk with me, see me, I don't make any compromise. Do I make any compromise?
Devotees: No.
Prabhupada: Then why shall we make compromise? That gentleman, Mr. Herbert, Gene Herbert, he said that "It has taken eighteen years to write these books." I said, "Still, there are so many mistakes." Immediately I said. And he could not say anything. Do you remember that?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: Immediately I said, "Yes, you have labored eighteen years. Still, there are so many mistakes."
Nitai: Anyone else would have said, "Oh! Very nice."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Eh? I did not say.
Pusta-krsna: He said that morning "What can we do, Prabhupada?" He said, "What can we do? If we do not compromise, we will make enemies."
Prabhupada: No, you'll not compromise; at the same time, you'll not make enemies. That is tactics. If you make enemies, then what is your tactics? You must speak the truth; at the same time he'll not be displeased. That is tactics. If you can defeat him by your argument, then he'll not be displeased. After all, everyone is human being. If you can find out his defect, why he shall be enemy? Therefore, it is said, "You better make a reasonable man an enemy, but don't make a friend fool." You don't make friendship with a fool, but if a man is intelligent, better make him an enemy. Because, because he's intelligent, although he's an enemy, he'll not do any harm. Because intelligent. But a fool, he may pose himself as friend, and he can do anything which is very harmful.
Paramahamsa: So we should be able to see the quality of man we are preaching to.
Prabhupada: Yes, you have to make him intelligent. Everyone is fool, mudha. Everyone within this material world is supposed to be a fool. Because everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So he's fool. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am German," "I am Frenchman," "I am this," "I am that." What is the difference? A cat is thinking, "I'm cat." A dog is thinking, "I am dog." So if somebody thinks that, in relationship with the body, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am...", then where is the difference between the cat and the dog? He's thinking himself as this body. Therefore everyone is thinking, at least in this modern world, the so-called nationalism, everyone is thinking, "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "I am Indian," "I am this," "black," "white." So everyone is fool. Is it not? Yes. He's thinking in a way what he is not. Therefore he's a fool. All these big, big political leaders, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, and in Europe , they fought with this consciousness, "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Frenchman." That's all. Even the big, big leaders, they are fools. And what to speak of common men?
Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: In the United States, there are something called minority groups. Minority group means like the Irish or the Negroes, the Jews...
Prabhupada: They're also fools. Minority fools. They're minority fools.
Yogesvara: Minority fools?
Prabhupada: Yes. Because he's thinking, "I am Irishman."
Yogesvara: Yes, but their point is that "Even if we are spirit soul, we are still being exploited because we are a small number. So we must band together to protect ourselves."
Prabhupada: You are exploited always. Why do you blame this man or that man? You are being exploited by maya. Where is your position of freedom?
Yogesvara: They say, "Well, maya we cannot fight, but we can fight the government."
Prabhupada: Why should you fight? If you cannot... Suppose you cannot... Can you fight with death? Maya, maya has imposed upon you death. So fight with maya, that there will be no death. That you cannot do. So you are always, what is called, defeated. That is your position. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. So best thing is surrender to Krsna for protection. That is wanted. We don't think, "minority." Suppose... Hare Krsna people, how many there are in the Paris City? How many?
Yogesvara: Seventy, eighty.
Prabhupada: So we are not sorry that minority. Where is the...? Insignificant. Don't talk of minority. But we are not sorry. Minority, majority, all these are foolishness. The whole platform is mistaken. (pause) Rupa Gosvami was a minister. He was in the majority. But voluntarily, he accepted minority. He went to Vrndavana and living alone, underneath a tree. He was enjoying so much honor. Tyaktva turnam asesa-mandala-pati-srenim. His associates were big, big zamindars, big businessmen, politicians. Because he's minister. But he preferred to resign that post and become a minority, to live alone in Vrndavana underneath a tree. Why he preferred this? And remaining there alone, he has given you the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. So we have to see how much service we are going to give Krsna. This minority, majority, these are all material conception of life. If you can give major service to Krsna, that is your success of life. I started this movement alone, minority. Is it not?
Yogesvara: Yes, one.
Prabhupada: One only, less than minority. (laughter) The minority, majority, these are material conception. And spiritual is how much you are giving service to Krsna. That is considered. That is to be taken into consideration. (pause) Krsna says Himself, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions and millions of people, one may understand Me." So if I have turned so many people to understand Krsna, so that is service. At least, they are trying to understand Krsna. [break] ...in winter in December, when I was going to the park, Regents Park, all the waters, frozen like stone, and with this stick, I was pushing, (makes sound-imitation:) "Tung, tung," like that. But I marked it that underneath the tree, there was no frozening. The water was there. Just like here is a tree. Just below the tree, there was water. And all around, frozen. The swans were walking on the... But on that place, they were floating. Hare Krsna... (pause)
Yogesvara: Actually, Srila Prabhupada, the scientists say that the life, life first came from the water. They say that life first came from water. In the beginning, there were one-celled creatures that were formed from chemicals in the water.
Prabhupada: That we also say, pralaya-payodhi-jale **. Because the whole planet was submerged in water, so there was life in water, aquatics, fishes. That is not a very new thing. We know it.
Paramahamsa: I have a question about evolution. Our position is that all the species have been established by Krsna, even before creation. But yet, in the creation, it comes about through an evolutionary process?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So the fact that evolution is existing, it's a fact. But it does not exist independent of the fact that Krsna created it and He established it. It's not something that developed independently.
Prabhupada: What is that? I do not follow.
Bhagavan: When Brahma creates the different species, they're not created one at a time. They're... All over the universe, there's different species which he creates?
Prabhupada: Brahma is created first. So he does not belong to the species. Immediately, he's a demigod. So where is the question of evolution?
Bhagavan: Yeah. So you understand? Brahma is created first. So it's not that we started from one-celled animals and worked up to Brahma.
Satsvarupa: But on a particular planet is it like that?
Prabhupada: Everywhere.
Satsvarupa: Are, are there sophisticated...
Prabhupada: In the material world.
Satsvarupa: The human beings are there from the very beginning on the earth too?
Prabhupada: Hmm. They're... Beings are already there, everywhere.
Satsvarupa: But you said it was all submerged in water.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But he's there. Suppose if you live within the water, does it mean that you are not existing?
Satsvarupa: No, but generally, human beings...
Bhagavan: Human species.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: Does the human species come with the gradual evolution or is the human species created first?
Prabhupada: No, in the creation, according to your karma. As you stopped your activities in the last creation, it is, it is just like... It is called suptottitha-nyaya: "A man is sleeping, and when he's awakened, he immediately remembers, 'What I have to do.' " So the annihilation means all living entities sleeping, and as soon as there is creation again they begin from the point where they last lost their life. That's it. It is the same example. Just when you go to sleep, you have a standard of thinking, and as soon as you are awakened, the same standard of thinking again begins. From the point where you slept and when awakened, you again begin from that point. It is like that.
Satsvarupa: So when Lord Brahma created this planet, did he immediately put all the species here?
Prabhupada: No, why immediately? It doesn't matter, immediately. But the living entities come to their new formation of life in that way.
Pusta-krsna: Prabhupada, in your spiritual master's commentary on Brahma-samhita, he states that within the core of the heart there is some desire and that according to that desire, one takes a body in the next creation.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta-krsna: So within the body of Maha-Visnu... Of course, material nature is not covering the con..., the sleeping souls, is it?
Prabhupada: Why you bring Vi...? You are talking of living entities. Why do you bring Visnu?
Pusta-krsna: So the point then is that means one can have a conditioned desire or a material desire even without being in the material world.
Prabhupada: He is already... That I have already explained. Suptottitha-nyaya. In the morning, as soon as you get up, you remember that you have to do so many things. That means it was already there.
Pusta-krsna: Right. Is that just like the impersonalists? They go up into the brahmajyoti, but they have desire. So they have to come back down.
Prabhupada: No, this is not going to the brahmajyoti. Those who..., brahmajyoti, they do not come in that way. They come in their own frustration.
Paramahamsa: So Srila Prabhupada, the living entities, when they come out of the body of Maha-Visnu, they, they...
Prabhupada: In Maha-Visnu's body they simply rest during the annihilation. That's all.
Yogesvara: But then during the creation, the scientists say, in the beginning, there was no human life on this planet.
Prabhupada: The scientists are rascals. What they know? There was no human being? Why not human being? The Brahma is human being. Then you reject the Vedic conclusion. You take this rascal scientist's conclusion.
Yogesvara: No, of course not.
Prabhupada: Then how you can say?
Yogesvara: But where were those spirit souls who were going to take the form of a human being before the human species became manifested?
Pusta-krsna: In the body of Visnu.
Bhagavan: That's just on this planet. But on other planets there's human species.
Prabhupada: Eh? What is that?
Bhagavan: No. His argument is that scientists say that at the beginning there may have been only lesser developed forms of life.
Prabhupada: No, we don't say that.
Bhagavan: Was there always humans on this planet?
Prabhupada: We say the highest developed, Brahma. He's a sub-creator. He's not a lesser intelligent. He's as good as God.
Yogesvara: But on this planet, let us say, for example...
Prabhupada: On this planet, any planet. That is the system.
Satsvarupa: This planet, from the very beginning, there were human beings.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: On this planet, from the very beginn...
Prabhupada: Yes. Brahma is there. The Brahma created so many sons. The Kumaras came out. The Rudra came out. He gradually created.
Nitai: So actually, the creation goes just the other way.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: First of all, Brahma, the greatest living being, and then...
Prabhupada: No. Creation is simultaneously. The Brahma then created ants and birds and beasts and everything. It is all simultaneous. Something is attached with my cloth, hmm?
Paramahamsa: These scientists are very great rascals. We should defeat them and save the people from...
Prabhupada: There is something.
Nitai: In your shoe?
Prabhupada: No, in the cloth.
Pusta-krsna: Oh yes.
Paramahamsa: Actually, you're the only one who has the courage to do that today.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: You're the only one that has the courage to defeat these rascals. Everyone else is surrendering to them.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Hare Krsna. Because I know on the background there is Krsna.
Pusta-krsna: So all your endeavors are perfect!
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Prabhupada: (Getting into car) Openly, I become. And you are all rascals, demons, the scientists, big, big scientists, come. And they tolerate. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- June 11, 1974, Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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