Bombay, February 17, 1974
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Prabhupada: Santa, dasya, sakhya,
vatsalya, and madhurya.Dr. Patel: Madhurya-bhakta is the best. Like gopis.
But that is very difficult to be.
Prabhupada: No, best, it is just one's conception, you see? Otherwise, all are best. All are best. But santa-bhaktas do not take Krsna very intimately.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You are... You take me below the belt.
Prabhupada: Yes, santa-bhakta means the bhakta who appreciates the greatness of the Supreme, but does not take Krsna as very intimate. That is santa-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: How can, ah, can you imagine God without taking Him very intimately? These are two, I mean...
Prabhupada: No, no. Just like... Intimately... Just like I can give this example, that you have got a great regard for me, but not as intimately as my other disciples.
Dr. Patel: Ah, that is possible. Because I am, I have not put on the order clothes.
Prabhupada: This example is, I think, proper.
Dr. Patel: (laughs)
Prabhupada: They have sacrificed their life for me.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: But you have got regard for me, but you cannot sacrifice your life for me.
Dr. Patel: You are trying to tempt me, sir, but I don't think it will be for that. I will not be turned away. I've got my duty to do toward my family. (laughing)
Prabhupada: No, no. This is, this is the stage of santa-bhakta. I am explaining santa-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: I can understand you. You... (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, no, it is according to sastra, santa. There are the different types of mellows, variety mellows. (aside:) Hare Krsna. santa, dasya, sakhya... I do not say that you become my disciple. I don't say that.
Dr. Patel: I am your disciple in all respects. I should not put on your, these clothes and come and do all the...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is not our program. That is not our program. We do not ask anyone to change his cloth, never. I never ask them to change his cloth, or change his position. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy.
Dr. Patel: That's right. We, we always... We always consider a guru in the form of God. God comes to you in the form of a guru.
Prabhupada: That is... That we also accept.
Dr. Patel: And that is the way I was... I mean, I love you, treat you as such and worship you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And if you think it is any other form, I have no objection, whatever bhava you may call it. What is the matter?
Prabhupada: No, I am speaking on the principle of sastra. santa-bhakta, dasya-bhakta, sakhya-bhakta, vatsalya-bhakta, madhurya-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: You see, I can...
Prabhupada: It is not that madhurya-bhakta is greater than the dasya-bhakta. The example has been given: just like sound. Sound is generated from the ether, sky. You are scientific man. You will understand.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: But that sound is existing in all other five elements, four elements.
Dr. Patel: Right.
Prabhupada: The sound is not only in the ether, but sound is on the air. The sound is in the fire, the sound is also in the water, and sound is also on the land. So the basic principle of santa-rasa is there.
Dr. Patel: In all of them.
Prabhupada: All of them. But according to the position, it is more developed.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: You see? In the earth, this sound is very... Just like you take any earthly object, metal. The sound is very strong there. Is it not?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like water. There is sound. But that sound and metallic sound are different. Sound is there, but the sound of the water and sound of the metal -- in the metal the sound is more prominent than in the water. But the sound is there. Similarly...
Dr. Patel: Love is there.
Prabhupada: Yes, love is there.
Dr. Patel: But there is more close love.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. More developed. Yes. In the santa-rasa, simply this appreciation of the greatness of the Absolute. That is santa-rasa.
Dr. Patel: Once upon a time the scientists of the world had considered this religion, belief in God to be bosh. Now the scientists have started thinking, and thinking very rightly that there is nothing else but God as you have said. That is the greatest thing that they are doing today.
Prabhupada: Yes, so that I am explaining. The sound is there. God consciousness is there, sound as the God consciousness, but in different phases the development is there differently. That is the principle. Everyone has got God consciousness. There is no doubt about it.
Dr. Patel: We come to you, sir, to serve your disciples in the best way we can do because to serve a disciple is to serve God.
Prabhupada: Yes. Then, that means it is being developed. That santa-rasa is being developed to dasya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: But sometimes disciples don't like our service.
Prabhupada: They are children. They are children. You see, they are coming from foreign countries. They are being trained up. There may be some deficiencies, but this is the scientific progress. When from santa-rasa, one develops dasya-rasa, wants to give some service, there is further development. Then further service, not as ordinary service, but as intimate friend. Then, as paternal, then conjugal. These are the different developments. The principle is there, santa-rasa, but they are manifested in different stages of development.
Dr. Patel: So that, the seed has grown into a small...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...jungle, or whatever you want to say.
Prabhupada: Then when it is sprouted, then active service. That is dasya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: This is, in the very, I mean, very, the early preaching of all our Vaisnava families...
Prabhupada: Yes,
Dr. Patel: ...that all sannyasis and sadhus must be treated very well...
Prabhupada: The sannyasis and sadhus, they are on the santa-rasa, as you are. Yes, santa-rasa, appreciating the greatness of the Supreme Absolute Truth. That is santa-rasa. Brahman, Paramatma. The Brahman feature of the Lord, all-pervading... Sarvam khalv idam brahma. That appreciation, that is santa-rasa. Paramatma. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. This is also santa-rasa.
Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61].
Prabhupada: Ha. So this realization of the Absolute Truth is called santa-rasa. And when it is further developed, then dasya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: No, these boys must develop friendship with me, that's all.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: (laughing) I am in a way joking sometimes to them and they take me very seriously.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Don't take serious. Treat him as your father, or grandfather. He's our great well-wisher, and he's a santa-rasa devotee. Now, I shall request you one thing. The... During aratrika time, hundreds of children come to us. I give little prasadam. You have seen it?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: They are very interested in dance and... Now, I wish that they may be given sumptuous food and dress.
Dr. Patel: Yes, dress, I also thought of that. Some of them are very badly dressed, poor people...
Prabhupada: Yes, if they come, "All right, come here. Just take your bath, be cleansed, tilaka, and a nice dress" and giving them some food.
Tamala Krsna: Every day they can put on their nice clothes for the Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes, because their father, mother, neither they do know how to take care of the children, but they come to us. We should take care of them.
Dr. Patel: This is just like those Christian missions, we must...
Prabhupada: Any one...
Dr. Patel: I think, I think we must do that. Then we will be able to propagate.
Prabhupada: Not with that purpose. Here is a poor child. He comes automatically to dance. So we should take care of them.
Dr. Patel: Yes, I have thought of it long ago.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: We must collect some funds and buy some ready-made clothes, keep them ready and present them.
Prabhupada: So from santa-rasa we can begin this dasya-rasa. Yes. Instead of taking care of them, you please kindly take up these poor children.
Dr. Patel: Yes, you see, my wife used to take care of more than hundred children in the schools, giving them fees, giving them notes, pencils and clothing and...
Prabhupada: A little more, little more.
Dr. Patel: She was doing it, but I am not she. She was a multi-millionaire's daughter; I am a poor man's son.
Prabhupada: But you are not poor man.
Dr. Patel: She had that painting from her young days of her father as a billionaire. But I am a extremely poor man.
Prabhupada: But you are the husband of a millionaire's daughter.
Dr. Patel: She's dead now. She has got no... She had a grip on me when she was living. I am now a vagabond in her absence. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of you or she. I am just pointing out.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I will try. I have taken your, this thing to my heart. I will try to collect some fund and get some clothing, those ready-made ones.
Prabhupada: So one day a tailors may be brought and take their measurement.
Dr. Patel: But ready-made is there.
Prabhupada: Or ready-made. Ready made. So in the evening they should come, they should take bath, be cleansed, and give dress. Next day when they come, change the dress. Let them be habituated. They are coming...
Dr. Patel: In cleanliness, you give them impression of cleanliness.
Prabhupada: ...voluntarily, to dance, to take prasadam. So why you should not take care of them? This is my point. We don't make distinction whether they are coming from Christian or Hindu or...
Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, man is a man. I mean those Christians think that we are Hindus and they are Christian. We don't think because in Hinduism or in actually Vedic religion everyone is created one.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I am in fact, When I go near...
Prabhupada: Our, our, our mantra is sarve sukhino bhavantu.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: Sarve sukhina... Everyone be happy. This is Krsna consciousness movement. We want to see everyone to be happy. That's all.
Dr. Patel: I, but, this is naturally me, if I see, of course... Then naturally... The great Jesus Christ, great bhakta of God. (some other men talk in background) But Christians, they have, they are...
Prabhupada: No, no. These, they may be low grade. They may be inferior, but if we are superior, we must act as superior.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: That is our movement.
Dr. Patel: Your religion is extremely catholic.
Prabhupada: Our catholic Krsna consciousness -- Krsna says sarva-yonisu. Sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah: [Bg. 14.4] "Any form of life, that is, I am the seed-giving father."
Dr. Patel: That's right, sir.
Prabhupada: And how lovingly they come to take little prasadam. I was thinking that...
Dr. Patel: I was noticing, myself, the same thing...
Prabhupada: How lovingly they offer me obeisances, touch my feet, and a little fruit or little, whatever I give, they are satisfied. So they are so friendly because they are innocent. They do not know what is this Hindu, Christian. So we must take care of them.
Guest (1): Some of those childrens are Christians.
Prabhupada: Never mind Christian, Hindu, Muslim. A Christian or a..., if we offer them nice food and nice dress, nobody will deny.
Dr. Patel: But these Hindus became Christians because they were offered nice food and dress by Christian missionaries.
Prabhupada: No, our point is not that, just to bring them and proselytize them to Hinduism. No. Take prasadam, take dress, chant Hare Krsna, dance. That's all. I never said to all these European and American disciples that "You become a Hindu." I never said. Ask them. I never said.
Tamala Krsna: Neither we would have agreed.
Prabhupada: Why shall I ask them to be? I asked them, "Just become lover of God. That's all. If you can love God through your religion, that's all right. You do that." I said that. I never said that "You become Hindu." Then I would not have been able to...
Dr. Patel: I think that they must understand, sir, that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion. Religion is a Vedic religion, which is common to Christianity. I would say that Jesus Christ has taught the Vedic religion to the Middle East and to the heathens and he was crucified because the heathens were not able to understand him properly. That is what my, I mean, convictions, strong conviction is that Jesus had actually preached Hinduism, I mean Vedic religion there.
Prabhupada: Yes, he was...
Dr. Patel: And all religions are in fact Vedic.
Prabhupada: He was educated of his spiritual life in India. Twelve years here. Twelve years he was. And he lived in Jagannatha temple.
Dr. Patel: Yesterday I found out a very good article. I have preserved it for you. I have forgot to bring it. I'll bring it in the afternoon from Journal, how where he stayed and how he was in India in Himalayas. Some man has made a research. Some Russian scholar has made a research for forty years, in various places and found out from various libraries the all, the old records.
Prabhupada: There was once a historian report that after crucification he did not die. He...
Dr. Patel: He was in samadhi.
Prabhupada: He came in India and...
Dr. Patel: Lived somewhere in Kashmir. That is what I have in article. He lived for a very long time after crucifixion. In crucifixion he went in great samadhi, and when the cross was brought down, he came out of samadhi after three days. That is the resurrection.
Prabhupada: He was... Yes.
Dr. Patel: And then he was brought back by his disciples to India.
Prabhupada: That is quite possible.
Dr. Patel: There is a big community called Issans(?) and Issans are somewhere in between Tigris and that Doab(?), you know, Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. From there he migrated to the Palestine area and preached those fellows all the philosophy that he learned in India. That is... That man has said. So I consider Christianity is a part of..., one of the panca, of Hindu... of the...
Prabhupada: No, no. Christianity is Vaisnavism.
Dr. Patel: Vaisnavism? Absolutely Vaisnavism.
Prabhupada: Anyone who... Mohammedan is also Vaisnavism.
Dr. Patel: Mohammedanism is not Vaisnavism.
Prabhupada: No, no. Caitanya Mahaprabhu had talk with the Pathanas. He proved that "Your religion is Vaisnavism."
Dr. Patel: Christianity is Vaisnavism 100%.
Prabhupada: Therefore in Caitanya-caritamrta there is. I have already explained that.
Dr. Patel: No, Christianity is 100% Vaisnavism. I have studied Christianity very well.
Prabhupada: Not hundred percent, but...
Dr. Patel: More or less.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because I have studied the whole of Bible, whole of New Testament and Genesis and everything, very well, just as I have studied the Upanisads. And I have come to realize that Jesus has taught Vedic religion in total, and Christ was nothing but a great saint of ancient Vedic religion. That is my conjecture, my conviction. They (indistinct) may think anything else.
Prabhupada: His commandments proved that. He said, "Thou shall not kill."
Dr. Patel: "Thou shall not kill."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is ahimsa, first principle.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: You see, abhayam sattva. First thing is abhaya. Abhaya-dana, when you give, it is the greatest dana. That is the first principle of all the religions, and that is the religion Christ taught there. The Middle East people and the Europeans had no what we call samskara. Those people are very backwards, towards India's backside. Because of the climatic conditions.
Prabhupada: No, from the First Commandment it appears that they were not very enlightened because why does he say "Thou shall not kill"? That means they were killers.
Dr. Patel: They were killing. (laughs)
Prabhupada: They were killers.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they would not have said, "Thou shall not kill."
Prabhupada: Why the first commandment is there, "Thou shall not kill"? They were fighting and killing amongst themselves. Not very advanced nation. And he was horrified when he saw that the Jews were killing animals.
Dr. Patel: In the temple.
Prabhupada: In the temple.
Dr. Patel: Not only that. They were, I mean, doing all that money-changing and taking bribes and all that. I think he...
Prabhupada: Well, that is professional... It is not very. So everyone takes bribe and everyone is interested in money than anything. That is not very great fault. You see. When you are in the material world, you require money. That is fact.
Dr. Patel: They were not able to understand that he is going to raise another temple. Another temple, that is how the Jews, were against him. I think... That is what my conjection, no? Another temple means another creed of...
Prabhupada: This is "against" or "for," this so-called "against" or "for," it has no meaning. Just like children fight, sometimes against, sometimes for. So it has no meaning. Unless one is raised in the spiritual consciousness, this so-called goodness and badness has no meaning. Caitanya-caritamrta kara says, dvaite bhadrabhadra sakali samana: "In the material atmosphere, the so-called goodness and so-called badness, they're all the same, simply a different type of mental concoction. That's all."
Dr. Patel: If nothing but God exists, then bad thing is also God and good thing is also God. That that...
Prabhupada: Therefore God realization is real good thing.
Dr. Patel: Real good thing.
Prabhupada: Not this, "This is good, this is bad." That is relative world. You'll find everywhere something good.
Dr. Patel: Good and bad are the bhukti-yoga citta (?).
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Then you make citta-bhukti nirodha (indistinct) yoga, and that nirodha, yoga, again that vacuum should not be allowed to be formed, but it should be filled with the, with God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is bhakti. Am I right?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I think my understanding is not-
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I want to be corrected by you.
Prabhupada: I have already told you, you are santa-rasa bhakta. [ ...originally, as spirit soul, everyone is Vaisnava. Everyone is Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: No, but by, by, by samskaras, birth. Our samskara, Vaisnava-samskara. Whole community of us. (pause)
Prabhupada: So why you are becoming ex-community?
Dr. Patel: I am... No. That is not... There is only one community and that is also many people. All of us one. The animal communities are there.
Prabhupada: So that is also another community. If you take simply humanity, that is another community.
Dr. Patel: Then all communities are including...
Prabhupada: Why you should neglect the animal community?
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right.
Prabhupada: That is also community.
Dr. Patel: That is why twenty-four avataras have been shown to us in Bhagavata, from fish to the highest.
Prabhupada: Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. If one is pandita, he does not make any distinction between animal community and human community.
Dr. Patel: Suni caiva sva-pake ca
Prabhupada: Ah, that is pandita. As soon as you see, "This is animal community, this is human community," then you are not pandita. You are still in, equal learning. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu [Bg. 18.54].
Dr. Patel: Mad-bhaktim labhate param.
Prabhupada: That is real vision.
Dr. Patel: Hamare (Hindi) He is agreeing to start a school for you in Sanskrit and Hindi. Eh?
Giriraja: Yes. We also agree.
Dr. Patel: So find out men, so long that Maharaja Saheb is here.
Prabhupada: (to someone walking) Hare Krsna.
Devotee: One man is coming today.
Dr. Patel: Then let him start, right earnest, and I will be the student along with him. I want to replace my all Sanskrit knowledge.
Prabhupada: No, Sanskrit knowledge, whatever you have got, that is sufficient for understanding. We don't require to be a Sanskrit scholar.
Dr. Patel: No, I don't want to be scholar. I want to learn all the ancient literatures. Bhakta does not want to learn even, but I am a little of that temperament. Whole day I pass my time in reading only, practically.
Prabhupada: So bhakti is jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. When you will not try to become a jnani, then you'll come to the stage of bhakti.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind but let me...
Prabhupada: So long, so long you...
Dr. Patel: I don't want to remain a jnani.
Prabhupada: No, no. Bhaktas are not ajnani.
Dr. Patel: Myself, I don't talk of others.
Prabhupada: No, no, yourself also. A bhaktas, they're not ajnani. That is rascaldom. If says the bhaktas are ajnani, that is rascaldom because Krsna says, tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah, nasayami [Bg. 10.11]. If Krsna helps him to become jnani, then how he's ajnani? It is a, ignorance, they say bhaktas are not jnanis. Without jnana, there is no question of bhakta. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya [SB 1.2.12]. Bhakta means he's already qualified with jnana and vairagya. That is bhakta.
vasudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogah prayojitah
janayaty asu vairagyam
jnanam ca yad ahaitukam
[SB 1.2.7]
It is a mistaken idea, the bhaktas are not very advanced in knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Bhaktas are...
Prabhupada: They have got real knowledge. They have got real knowledge. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. When they have surrendered to Krsna, they are really jnani.
Dr. Patel: But some of the absolutely ignorant people, they have become, but...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. We don't say, we don't speak of "some." This is the, yes, there are many...
Dr. Patel: Extremely scholastic they have become afterwards. Even though they have not gone to the school.
Prabhupada: Just like Jiva Gosvami. Jiva Gosvami, there is no comparison of learned scholarship with him throughout the whole world. He's such a jnani. Even great, great panditas said that "There will be no more such learned philosopher, neither there was, like Jiva Gosvami." Yes. We are also referring to Jiva Gosvami.
Dr. Patel: I, I, I... I also refer. I want to read, I want to read his books.
Prabhupada: So in our Gaudiya-vaisnava-sampradaya there are so many learned scholars. Just like my Guru Maharaja.
Dr. Patel: But a Sanskrit... I tell you, the Bengalis are the great scholars all round, in all respects.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And we are your followers, Gujaratis. In fact, in India, next to Bengal comes Gujarati in scholarship. And Maharashtra first.
Prabhupada: No, your Gokule said, "What Bengal thinks today, others will think tomorrow."
Dr. Patel: That's right. Even in Mara-mari (?) also, you think only... (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually, this independence movement was started from Bengal. Partition of Bengal and the movement started, Surendranath Bannerjee. Gandhi admitted, "Father of nation is Surendranath Bannerjee." Yes. And later on, actually, if you don't take other, the independence came through a Bengali, Subash Chandra Bose.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Right.
Dr. Patel: Not even... Philosophy also. Gaurapada,(?) the grandson of Sankarapada. Gaurapada, Gaurapada was, he's Govindapada and Govindapada is Sankaracarya. So that also you will see that some Sankara's greatest sire was a Bengali gentleman.
Prabhupada: Now taking too much, too much taking in political part. Aurobindo, Aurobindo, he was a politician.
Dr. Patel: Great politician. He was a humanist also.
Prabhupada: Yes, but he left. "This is no good." I must take to yoga practice.
Dr. Patel: No man can become like an Aurobindo again. Very great man. A politician, a saint, and what not. And a great rushi. He is a rushi. I consider him as a rushi.
Prabhupada: Who?
Dr. Patel: Aurobindo.
Prabhupada: Rushi?
Dr. Patel: A modern rushi.
Prabhupada: What is that rushi?
Dr. Patel: Rushi...
Prabhupada: Oh, rsi, yes.
Dr. Patel: You call it "rsi" and we call it "rushi." that is the difference in pronunciation.
Prabhupada: Just like the Oriyas. they call "Krushna."
Dr. Patel: "Krushna," yes. They cannot even say Krsna.
Prabhupada: They cannot say, "Krsna;" they say, "Krushna."
Dr. Patel: We call, "Kreshna." We call "Kreshna," you call, "Krsna," they call, "Krushna." These are different... We call, "rushi."
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhava-grahi janardana. But Krsna can understand who is asking for Him. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: All languages He understands. All languages are from om, and om is God. So all languages are God. Look at my arguments. Am I right or wrong.
Prabhupada: Why you are wrong? Krsna says, omkara sarva-vedesu:" I am omkara sarva-vedesu." [break] ...mental concoction.
Dr. Patel: Is a body.
Prabhupada: Anyone who has got this material body, he is not well. He may be possessing very stout and strong body, but he's not well. Because death is there. So well or no well, you have to meet death. So where is, where is the use of your...
Dr. Patel: What is this death? If you say, "You meet death," then you are a Mayavadi.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, no, no. I am speaking... I am answering your "well" and "not well." That's it. When there is death, then what is the use of calling "well" and "not well"?
Dr. Patel: "Well" and "not well," that's right.
Prabhupada: That is my point. If you can avoid death, disease, old age, then you are well. You cannot avoid all these things. You must become old man, you must die, you must be diseased; where is the meaning of this well? It is simply concoction. [ Where is happiness? Where is well-being? That they do not know. (aside:) Hare Krsna. That they do not know. Just like a man lying on sick bed, and some friends come, "How are you?" "Yes, today I am well." What is this "well"? You are lying on the sick bed, hospital, and you are speaking, "Yes, I am well." (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. There is no "well." So long you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, there is no question of "well." When you can avoid these things, then you are well. [break] ...but our independence. What is that independence? No rice, no geha. What is this independence? [break] (Hindi) "godless civilization" saba boka mare hai, bas. [break] ...take shelter of Krsna, everything is false. You cannot escape. (Hindi) The death is there. Mrtyuh sarva-haras caham [Bg. 10.34]. So at the end everything will be taken away by Krsna in the form of death. Mrtyuh sarva-haras caham. (japa) Everyone, especially the karmis, they think that they will live forever.
Mr. Sar: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is the most wonderful thing. Because everyone is dying, but the man who is not yet dead, he thinks that he'll live forever. This is the most wonderful thing. Ahanyahanya lokani gacchanti yama-mandiram, sesah sthitam icchanti kim ascaryam atha param (?). He does not think that "I'll have to die. So what I am doing?"
Guest (1): Swamiji, may I ask one question?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): You said this population is increasing. According to Hindu theory, we say that human life is very difficult and you get this human birth after great karmas and good deeds and all that. So this population is increasing and we are putting the birth control; and then the population of beasts and others that, the wild beasts, that is decreasing, although almost it has decreased.
Prabhupada: But they have no birth control.
Guest (1): No, no, just see. And then you see the population of these, for instance, chickens, pigs, and those, they have increased. So the population of human being that is increasing, is it due to these wild animals and other they have done good deeds, so they are coming up as a human being?
Prabhupada: First thing is, I am asking you, why you are bothering about the increase of population? First, that is my question. The animals, they do not bother. You are so advanced in knowledge. Why you are bothering? First of all answer this question.
Guest (1): No, no, but that is...
Prabhupada: The animals, they have got less intelligence. They never bother themselves, "The population is increasing." And you are advanced animal. Why you are so much bothered?
Guest (1): But that is...
Prabhupada: Then you are less intelligent than the animals. That is my argument. They are lower animals. They are begetting at one time one dozen children. They are not bothering. Why you are bothering? That means that you are less than the animals. Because you have got so much anxiety, "Why population increasing?" But they are not bothering. So you are less than animals.
Guest (1): No, no, my question is different.
Prabhupada: That is my answer. Why you are bothering the population increasing? Why you are bothering?
Guest (1): Because they think that the resources...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Some, there is some... There is some reason. But they have no such thing. So therefore they are advanced. They have no such anxiety. You are less than animal.
Guest (1): No, that's right Swamiji, but what my question is...
Prabhupada: That is... First answer is this, that you are bothered for increased population, but the animals are not. Therefore they are more advanced than you. They know that there is no botheration. Because in the Vedic injunction it is said, eko yo bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. Now, there are millions of elephants in Africa. Who is feeding them? Who is feeding them? They eat at one time one mound. Where the food is coming from? Why you are bothered? You'll take only one chataka. That means you are godless. You do not know who is supplying your food. You are less than animal. That is my answer.
Guest (1): Swamiji, my question is different.
Prabhupada: This is answer. You are very much...
Guest (1): No, that is...
Prabhupada: ...in anxiety.
Guest (2): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: He.
Guest (2): (Hindi) Human being, they are all coming as.
Prabhupada: No, no. Human being, that is a chance given to you to become human being, to understand God. And if you do not place yourself as human being, you must suffer. Just like (Hindi). Accha post. If you do not behave rightly, you are degraded. You are going to animal become.
Guest (1): No, but,...
Prabhupada: No, no, this is the nature's law. This is the nature's law, that some way or other, by evolutionary process, you come to the human being form, but if you remain as animal, then you go to animal again.
Guest (2): So animal me apne bolte hai (?).
Prabhupada: He.
Guest (2): Accha. So if population increase...
Prabhupada: The same example. Suppose by promotion, you come to a very nice post, but if you do not behave well, then you are degraded.
Guest (1): No, that I agree, Swamiji, ke admi yo he, karenge (?), they will go back as human beings. But (Hindi)
Prabhupada: But, bhala (Hindi)
Guest (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Now, why, why don't you understand.
Mr. Sar: Chance is given to you...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (2): (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: ...there is human form of life. If you do not know, then you remain animal. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca samanam etad pasubhih naranam: "Eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse, and defense -- this is there in the animals." And if you remain in that jurisdiction only -- eating, sleeping and sexual intercourse and defense -- you are animal, no more than animal. Why you are thinking that you are more than animal? You are animal. This is the sastric injunction. You are no better than animal because your business is eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Whole world is busy.
Guest (1): And then, Swamiji, this birth control, that means going against the...
Prabhupada: They are more than animals.
Guest (1): No, no, that just means going against the will of the God.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes.
Guest (1): Because God wants to bring them as human...
Prabhupada: Yes, this is a chance. Suppose if somebody's given chance to take opportunity and if you kill, that's a great sin. You cannot do that. You are obstructing his natural progress. Is that birth control (Hindi) European countries mai (?), he hasn't got soul, lump of matter, (Hindi) [break] As soon as you forget the duty of human life, then you are nothing but animal. This is the verdict of Hindu dharma, that if you do not properly behave as human being, you are no better than animal. Dharmena hina, (Hindi) ...will give him an animal body. This is nature's work. Yes, again come, again come (Hindi) But he does not do that.
Guest (3): But Swamiji, sexual intercourse after marriage is against law of Manu?
Prabhupada: No, that is also... There is law. You cannot have sexual intercourse with wife as you like, no. That is also illicit sex. Then... When the woman is in menstrual period, after five days, you can have once. As soon as she is pregnant, no more sexual intercourse. This is human being. Not that like animal. Animals also, they have got restrictions. You see? The lions, they have sexual intercourse once in life. Once in life. Brahmacari. You see? So as soon as you violate the laws, then you are animal. Because law is meant for man. Just like "Keep to the right" and "left" in the road. It is meant for human being, not for the dogs. Dog, if he keeps right or left, it is not under law. But if you keep your car instead of left to the right, then you are criminal. (pause) So which way we have to go?... Human life begins when he understands what is dharma. That is human life, beginning. Aushikha (?) (Hindi) Jaiye aur Hindu religion hai, Muslim religion hai, Christian religion hai, Buddhist religion hai, Jewish religion hai. The religion must be there. But when we give up this religious process, then there is no more human life; it is animal life. Hare Krsna.
Giriraja: So by that, there's a emblem of the theosophical colony.
Prabhupada: I see. Oh, yes, yes. [break] One old lady... You know, in the villages there is fair, or market. So in the morning she saw that so many hundreds of men have assembled. So one lady of that village, she thought that "They have become my guests." So she began to cry and was asking his son, her son, "Oh, how I can accommodate so many people? How can I receive them as guests?" So the son said, "My dear mother, don't be agitated. In the evening you come." So in the evening when she come, there was nobody. There was nobody, because a marketplace. So this botheration is just like the old lady. After seeing so many men, she is agitated. And in the evening there is none. So it requires intelligence, that "They are coming and going. Why I should be bothered about that? Let me do my duty as human being." That is required. (Hindi:) Ek sat me dekhila. [break] ...unlimited number of living entities. Ananta. Ananta means you cannot count. Within your body, within your stool, there are millions of living entities. They are provided, maintained, by your stool, by your urine. So why do you bother? If your stool and urine can provide so many living entities, why you bother yourself? (Hindi) You do your duty as human being. Dharmena hina pasubhih sa... Don't become animal. That is required. (Hindi) [break] ...the essence of knowledge. People are diverted in so many ways. Human duty is... (Hindi) [break] That is human duty. Be surrendered to God. That is your duty. Then everything will come automatically. Everything will come. And without knowledge, how you can take care? That is not possible.
Satsvarupa: Prabhupada, we're late for our meeting. [break]
Prabhupada: ...be strong. Now nobody cares for it.
Mr. Sar: All these movements at one time, sometimes Arya-samaja movement was very strong, sometimes another's. They come and go.
Prabhupada: But this Krsna movement is always strong. There are millions of Krsna temples in India, and the Arya-samajis tried to check people going to the temple, but they, they have gone away, and the temple is existing and millions of people still going to see the temple. In Jagannatha temple, in Vrndavana, thousands and thousands of men, still coming. All the South Indian temples.
Tamala Krsna: Tirupati.
Prabhupada: Tirupati.
Tamala Krsna: 25,000 people a day.
Guest (1): 25,000 years old?
Tamala Krsna: No, people are coming every day.
Prabhupada: But their income is more than one lakh of rupees daily.
Guest (1): Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Keno apnara?
Guest (3): (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: Accha. [break] ...that is our slogan. Satyam param dhimahi [SB 1.1.1]. Janmadyasya yatah. We explain this truth. the truth is that from whom everything comes. Janmadyasya yatah. So He's a person or imperson? No, abhijnah svarat. Tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye muhyanti yat surayah.
Devotee: Krsna says, "There's no truth superior to Me."
Prabhupada: Yes, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. The truth is there. They do not know. Half-educated. This is very good, "Truth is the..." We also say, but they do not know what is that truth.
Satsvarupa: They leave the question hanging, that "No man may actually know what it is." (end)
Prabhupada: No, best, it is just one's conception, you see? Otherwise, all are best. All are best. But santa-bhaktas do not take Krsna very intimately.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You are... You take me below the belt.
Prabhupada: Yes, santa-bhakta means the bhakta who appreciates the greatness of the Supreme, but does not take Krsna as very intimate. That is santa-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: How can, ah, can you imagine God without taking Him very intimately? These are two, I mean...
Prabhupada: No, no. Just like... Intimately... Just like I can give this example, that you have got a great regard for me, but not as intimately as my other disciples.
Dr. Patel: Ah, that is possible. Because I am, I have not put on the order clothes.
Prabhupada: This example is, I think, proper.
Dr. Patel: (laughs)
Prabhupada: They have sacrificed their life for me.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: But you have got regard for me, but you cannot sacrifice your life for me.
Dr. Patel: You are trying to tempt me, sir, but I don't think it will be for that. I will not be turned away. I've got my duty to do toward my family. (laughing)
Prabhupada: No, no. This is, this is the stage of santa-bhakta. I am explaining santa-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: I can understand you. You... (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, no, it is according to sastra, santa. There are the different types of mellows, variety mellows. (aside:) Hare Krsna. santa, dasya, sakhya... I do not say that you become my disciple. I don't say that.
Dr. Patel: I am your disciple in all respects. I should not put on your, these clothes and come and do all the...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is not our program. That is not our program. We do not ask anyone to change his cloth, never. I never ask them to change his cloth, or change his position. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy.
Dr. Patel: That's right. We, we always... We always consider a guru in the form of God. God comes to you in the form of a guru.
Prabhupada: That is... That we also accept.
Dr. Patel: And that is the way I was... I mean, I love you, treat you as such and worship you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And if you think it is any other form, I have no objection, whatever bhava you may call it. What is the matter?
Prabhupada: No, I am speaking on the principle of sastra. santa-bhakta, dasya-bhakta, sakhya-bhakta, vatsalya-bhakta, madhurya-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: You see, I can...
Prabhupada: It is not that madhurya-bhakta is greater than the dasya-bhakta. The example has been given: just like sound. Sound is generated from the ether, sky. You are scientific man. You will understand.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: But that sound is existing in all other five elements, four elements.
Dr. Patel: Right.
Prabhupada: The sound is not only in the ether, but sound is on the air. The sound is in the fire, the sound is also in the water, and sound is also on the land. So the basic principle of santa-rasa is there.
Dr. Patel: In all of them.
Prabhupada: All of them. But according to the position, it is more developed.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: You see? In the earth, this sound is very... Just like you take any earthly object, metal. The sound is very strong there. Is it not?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like water. There is sound. But that sound and metallic sound are different. Sound is there, but the sound of the water and sound of the metal -- in the metal the sound is more prominent than in the water. But the sound is there. Similarly...
Dr. Patel: Love is there.
Prabhupada: Yes, love is there.
Dr. Patel: But there is more close love.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. More developed. Yes. In the santa-rasa, simply this appreciation of the greatness of the Absolute. That is santa-rasa.
Dr. Patel: Once upon a time the scientists of the world had considered this religion, belief in God to be bosh. Now the scientists have started thinking, and thinking very rightly that there is nothing else but God as you have said. That is the greatest thing that they are doing today.
Prabhupada: Yes, so that I am explaining. The sound is there. God consciousness is there, sound as the God consciousness, but in different phases the development is there differently. That is the principle. Everyone has got God consciousness. There is no doubt about it.
Dr. Patel: We come to you, sir, to serve your disciples in the best way we can do because to serve a disciple is to serve God.
Prabhupada: Yes. Then, that means it is being developed. That santa-rasa is being developed to dasya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: But sometimes disciples don't like our service.
Prabhupada: They are children. They are children. You see, they are coming from foreign countries. They are being trained up. There may be some deficiencies, but this is the scientific progress. When from santa-rasa, one develops dasya-rasa, wants to give some service, there is further development. Then further service, not as ordinary service, but as intimate friend. Then, as paternal, then conjugal. These are the different developments. The principle is there, santa-rasa, but they are manifested in different stages of development.
Dr. Patel: So that, the seed has grown into a small...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...jungle, or whatever you want to say.
Prabhupada: Then when it is sprouted, then active service. That is dasya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: This is, in the very, I mean, very, the early preaching of all our Vaisnava families...
Prabhupada: Yes,
Dr. Patel: ...that all sannyasis and sadhus must be treated very well...
Prabhupada: The sannyasis and sadhus, they are on the santa-rasa, as you are. Yes, santa-rasa, appreciating the greatness of the Supreme Absolute Truth. That is santa-rasa. Brahman, Paramatma. The Brahman feature of the Lord, all-pervading... Sarvam khalv idam brahma. That appreciation, that is santa-rasa. Paramatma. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. This is also santa-rasa.
Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61].
Prabhupada: Ha. So this realization of the Absolute Truth is called santa-rasa. And when it is further developed, then dasya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: No, these boys must develop friendship with me, that's all.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: (laughing) I am in a way joking sometimes to them and they take me very seriously.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Don't take serious. Treat him as your father, or grandfather. He's our great well-wisher, and he's a santa-rasa devotee. Now, I shall request you one thing. The... During aratrika time, hundreds of children come to us. I give little prasadam. You have seen it?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: They are very interested in dance and... Now, I wish that they may be given sumptuous food and dress.
Dr. Patel: Yes, dress, I also thought of that. Some of them are very badly dressed, poor people...
Prabhupada: Yes, if they come, "All right, come here. Just take your bath, be cleansed, tilaka, and a nice dress" and giving them some food.
Tamala Krsna: Every day they can put on their nice clothes for the Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes, because their father, mother, neither they do know how to take care of the children, but they come to us. We should take care of them.
Dr. Patel: This is just like those Christian missions, we must...
Prabhupada: Any one...
Dr. Patel: I think, I think we must do that. Then we will be able to propagate.
Prabhupada: Not with that purpose. Here is a poor child. He comes automatically to dance. So we should take care of them.
Dr. Patel: Yes, I have thought of it long ago.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: We must collect some funds and buy some ready-made clothes, keep them ready and present them.
Prabhupada: So from santa-rasa we can begin this dasya-rasa. Yes. Instead of taking care of them, you please kindly take up these poor children.
Dr. Patel: Yes, you see, my wife used to take care of more than hundred children in the schools, giving them fees, giving them notes, pencils and clothing and...
Prabhupada: A little more, little more.
Dr. Patel: She was doing it, but I am not she. She was a multi-millionaire's daughter; I am a poor man's son.
Prabhupada: But you are not poor man.
Dr. Patel: She had that painting from her young days of her father as a billionaire. But I am a extremely poor man.
Prabhupada: But you are the husband of a millionaire's daughter.
Dr. Patel: She's dead now. She has got no... She had a grip on me when she was living. I am now a vagabond in her absence. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of you or she. I am just pointing out.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I will try. I have taken your, this thing to my heart. I will try to collect some fund and get some clothing, those ready-made ones.
Prabhupada: So one day a tailors may be brought and take their measurement.
Dr. Patel: But ready-made is there.
Prabhupada: Or ready-made. Ready made. So in the evening they should come, they should take bath, be cleansed, and give dress. Next day when they come, change the dress. Let them be habituated. They are coming...
Dr. Patel: In cleanliness, you give them impression of cleanliness.
Prabhupada: ...voluntarily, to dance, to take prasadam. So why you should not take care of them? This is my point. We don't make distinction whether they are coming from Christian or Hindu or...
Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, man is a man. I mean those Christians think that we are Hindus and they are Christian. We don't think because in Hinduism or in actually Vedic religion everyone is created one.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I am in fact, When I go near...
Prabhupada: Our, our, our mantra is sarve sukhino bhavantu.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: Sarve sukhina... Everyone be happy. This is Krsna consciousness movement. We want to see everyone to be happy. That's all.
Dr. Patel: I, but, this is naturally me, if I see, of course... Then naturally... The great Jesus Christ, great bhakta of God. (some other men talk in background) But Christians, they have, they are...
Prabhupada: No, no. These, they may be low grade. They may be inferior, but if we are superior, we must act as superior.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: That is our movement.
Dr. Patel: Your religion is extremely catholic.
Prabhupada: Our catholic Krsna consciousness -- Krsna says sarva-yonisu. Sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah: [Bg. 14.4] "Any form of life, that is, I am the seed-giving father."
Dr. Patel: That's right, sir.
Prabhupada: And how lovingly they come to take little prasadam. I was thinking that...
Dr. Patel: I was noticing, myself, the same thing...
Prabhupada: How lovingly they offer me obeisances, touch my feet, and a little fruit or little, whatever I give, they are satisfied. So they are so friendly because they are innocent. They do not know what is this Hindu, Christian. So we must take care of them.
Guest (1): Some of those childrens are Christians.
Prabhupada: Never mind Christian, Hindu, Muslim. A Christian or a..., if we offer them nice food and nice dress, nobody will deny.
Dr. Patel: But these Hindus became Christians because they were offered nice food and dress by Christian missionaries.
Prabhupada: No, our point is not that, just to bring them and proselytize them to Hinduism. No. Take prasadam, take dress, chant Hare Krsna, dance. That's all. I never said to all these European and American disciples that "You become a Hindu." I never said. Ask them. I never said.
Tamala Krsna: Neither we would have agreed.
Prabhupada: Why shall I ask them to be? I asked them, "Just become lover of God. That's all. If you can love God through your religion, that's all right. You do that." I said that. I never said that "You become Hindu." Then I would not have been able to...
Dr. Patel: I think that they must understand, sir, that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion. Religion is a Vedic religion, which is common to Christianity. I would say that Jesus Christ has taught the Vedic religion to the Middle East and to the heathens and he was crucified because the heathens were not able to understand him properly. That is what my, I mean, convictions, strong conviction is that Jesus had actually preached Hinduism, I mean Vedic religion there.
Prabhupada: Yes, he was...
Dr. Patel: And all religions are in fact Vedic.
Prabhupada: He was educated of his spiritual life in India. Twelve years here. Twelve years he was. And he lived in Jagannatha temple.
Dr. Patel: Yesterday I found out a very good article. I have preserved it for you. I have forgot to bring it. I'll bring it in the afternoon from Journal, how where he stayed and how he was in India in Himalayas. Some man has made a research. Some Russian scholar has made a research for forty years, in various places and found out from various libraries the all, the old records.
Prabhupada: There was once a historian report that after crucification he did not die. He...
Dr. Patel: He was in samadhi.
Prabhupada: He came in India and...
Dr. Patel: Lived somewhere in Kashmir. That is what I have in article. He lived for a very long time after crucifixion. In crucifixion he went in great samadhi, and when the cross was brought down, he came out of samadhi after three days. That is the resurrection.
Prabhupada: He was... Yes.
Dr. Patel: And then he was brought back by his disciples to India.
Prabhupada: That is quite possible.
Dr. Patel: There is a big community called Issans(?) and Issans are somewhere in between Tigris and that Doab(?), you know, Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. From there he migrated to the Palestine area and preached those fellows all the philosophy that he learned in India. That is... That man has said. So I consider Christianity is a part of..., one of the panca, of Hindu... of the...
Prabhupada: No, no. Christianity is Vaisnavism.
Dr. Patel: Vaisnavism? Absolutely Vaisnavism.
Prabhupada: Anyone who... Mohammedan is also Vaisnavism.
Dr. Patel: Mohammedanism is not Vaisnavism.
Prabhupada: No, no. Caitanya Mahaprabhu had talk with the Pathanas. He proved that "Your religion is Vaisnavism."
Dr. Patel: Christianity is Vaisnavism 100%.
Prabhupada: Therefore in Caitanya-caritamrta there is. I have already explained that.
Dr. Patel: No, Christianity is 100% Vaisnavism. I have studied Christianity very well.
Prabhupada: Not hundred percent, but...
Dr. Patel: More or less.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because I have studied the whole of Bible, whole of New Testament and Genesis and everything, very well, just as I have studied the Upanisads. And I have come to realize that Jesus has taught Vedic religion in total, and Christ was nothing but a great saint of ancient Vedic religion. That is my conjecture, my conviction. They (indistinct) may think anything else.
Prabhupada: His commandments proved that. He said, "Thou shall not kill."
Dr. Patel: "Thou shall not kill."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is ahimsa, first principle.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: You see, abhayam sattva. First thing is abhaya. Abhaya-dana, when you give, it is the greatest dana. That is the first principle of all the religions, and that is the religion Christ taught there. The Middle East people and the Europeans had no what we call samskara. Those people are very backwards, towards India's backside. Because of the climatic conditions.
Prabhupada: No, from the First Commandment it appears that they were not very enlightened because why does he say "Thou shall not kill"? That means they were killers.
Dr. Patel: They were killing. (laughs)
Prabhupada: They were killers.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they would not have said, "Thou shall not kill."
Prabhupada: Why the first commandment is there, "Thou shall not kill"? They were fighting and killing amongst themselves. Not very advanced nation. And he was horrified when he saw that the Jews were killing animals.
Dr. Patel: In the temple.
Prabhupada: In the temple.
Dr. Patel: Not only that. They were, I mean, doing all that money-changing and taking bribes and all that. I think he...
Prabhupada: Well, that is professional... It is not very. So everyone takes bribe and everyone is interested in money than anything. That is not very great fault. You see. When you are in the material world, you require money. That is fact.
Dr. Patel: They were not able to understand that he is going to raise another temple. Another temple, that is how the Jews, were against him. I think... That is what my conjection, no? Another temple means another creed of...
Prabhupada: This is "against" or "for," this so-called "against" or "for," it has no meaning. Just like children fight, sometimes against, sometimes for. So it has no meaning. Unless one is raised in the spiritual consciousness, this so-called goodness and badness has no meaning. Caitanya-caritamrta kara says, dvaite bhadrabhadra sakali samana: "In the material atmosphere, the so-called goodness and so-called badness, they're all the same, simply a different type of mental concoction. That's all."
Dr. Patel: If nothing but God exists, then bad thing is also God and good thing is also God. That that...
Prabhupada: Therefore God realization is real good thing.
Dr. Patel: Real good thing.
Prabhupada: Not this, "This is good, this is bad." That is relative world. You'll find everywhere something good.
Dr. Patel: Good and bad are the bhukti-yoga citta (?).
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Then you make citta-bhukti nirodha (indistinct) yoga, and that nirodha, yoga, again that vacuum should not be allowed to be formed, but it should be filled with the, with God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is bhakti. Am I right?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I think my understanding is not-
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I want to be corrected by you.
Prabhupada: I have already told you, you are santa-rasa bhakta. [ ...originally, as spirit soul, everyone is Vaisnava. Everyone is Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: No, but by, by, by samskaras, birth. Our samskara, Vaisnava-samskara. Whole community of us. (pause)
Prabhupada: So why you are becoming ex-community?
Dr. Patel: I am... No. That is not... There is only one community and that is also many people. All of us one. The animal communities are there.
Prabhupada: So that is also another community. If you take simply humanity, that is another community.
Dr. Patel: Then all communities are including...
Prabhupada: Why you should neglect the animal community?
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right.
Prabhupada: That is also community.
Dr. Patel: That is why twenty-four avataras have been shown to us in Bhagavata, from fish to the highest.
Prabhupada: Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. If one is pandita, he does not make any distinction between animal community and human community.
Dr. Patel: Suni caiva sva-pake ca
Prabhupada: Ah, that is pandita. As soon as you see, "This is animal community, this is human community," then you are not pandita. You are still in, equal learning. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu [Bg. 18.54].
Dr. Patel: Mad-bhaktim labhate param.
Prabhupada: That is real vision.
Dr. Patel: Hamare (Hindi) He is agreeing to start a school for you in Sanskrit and Hindi. Eh?
Giriraja: Yes. We also agree.
Dr. Patel: So find out men, so long that Maharaja Saheb is here.
Prabhupada: (to someone walking) Hare Krsna.
Devotee: One man is coming today.
Dr. Patel: Then let him start, right earnest, and I will be the student along with him. I want to replace my all Sanskrit knowledge.
Prabhupada: No, Sanskrit knowledge, whatever you have got, that is sufficient for understanding. We don't require to be a Sanskrit scholar.
Dr. Patel: No, I don't want to be scholar. I want to learn all the ancient literatures. Bhakta does not want to learn even, but I am a little of that temperament. Whole day I pass my time in reading only, practically.
Prabhupada: So bhakti is jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. When you will not try to become a jnani, then you'll come to the stage of bhakti.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind but let me...
Prabhupada: So long, so long you...
Dr. Patel: I don't want to remain a jnani.
Prabhupada: No, no. Bhaktas are not ajnani.
Dr. Patel: Myself, I don't talk of others.
Prabhupada: No, no, yourself also. A bhaktas, they're not ajnani. That is rascaldom. If says the bhaktas are ajnani, that is rascaldom because Krsna says, tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah, nasayami [Bg. 10.11]. If Krsna helps him to become jnani, then how he's ajnani? It is a, ignorance, they say bhaktas are not jnanis. Without jnana, there is no question of bhakta. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya [SB 1.2.12]. Bhakta means he's already qualified with jnana and vairagya. That is bhakta.
vasudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogah prayojitah
janayaty asu vairagyam
jnanam ca yad ahaitukam
[SB 1.2.7]
It is a mistaken idea, the bhaktas are not very advanced in knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Bhaktas are...
Prabhupada: They have got real knowledge. They have got real knowledge. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. When they have surrendered to Krsna, they are really jnani.
Dr. Patel: But some of the absolutely ignorant people, they have become, but...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. We don't say, we don't speak of "some." This is the, yes, there are many...
Dr. Patel: Extremely scholastic they have become afterwards. Even though they have not gone to the school.
Prabhupada: Just like Jiva Gosvami. Jiva Gosvami, there is no comparison of learned scholarship with him throughout the whole world. He's such a jnani. Even great, great panditas said that "There will be no more such learned philosopher, neither there was, like Jiva Gosvami." Yes. We are also referring to Jiva Gosvami.
Dr. Patel: I, I, I... I also refer. I want to read, I want to read his books.
Prabhupada: So in our Gaudiya-vaisnava-sampradaya there are so many learned scholars. Just like my Guru Maharaja.
Dr. Patel: But a Sanskrit... I tell you, the Bengalis are the great scholars all round, in all respects.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And we are your followers, Gujaratis. In fact, in India, next to Bengal comes Gujarati in scholarship. And Maharashtra first.
Prabhupada: No, your Gokule said, "What Bengal thinks today, others will think tomorrow."
Dr. Patel: That's right. Even in Mara-mari (?) also, you think only... (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually, this independence movement was started from Bengal. Partition of Bengal and the movement started, Surendranath Bannerjee. Gandhi admitted, "Father of nation is Surendranath Bannerjee." Yes. And later on, actually, if you don't take other, the independence came through a Bengali, Subash Chandra Bose.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Right.
Dr. Patel: Not even... Philosophy also. Gaurapada,(?) the grandson of Sankarapada. Gaurapada, Gaurapada was, he's Govindapada and Govindapada is Sankaracarya. So that also you will see that some Sankara's greatest sire was a Bengali gentleman.
Prabhupada: Now taking too much, too much taking in political part. Aurobindo, Aurobindo, he was a politician.
Dr. Patel: Great politician. He was a humanist also.
Prabhupada: Yes, but he left. "This is no good." I must take to yoga practice.
Dr. Patel: No man can become like an Aurobindo again. Very great man. A politician, a saint, and what not. And a great rushi. He is a rushi. I consider him as a rushi.
Prabhupada: Who?
Dr. Patel: Aurobindo.
Prabhupada: Rushi?
Dr. Patel: A modern rushi.
Prabhupada: What is that rushi?
Dr. Patel: Rushi...
Prabhupada: Oh, rsi, yes.
Dr. Patel: You call it "rsi" and we call it "rushi." that is the difference in pronunciation.
Prabhupada: Just like the Oriyas. they call "Krushna."
Dr. Patel: "Krushna," yes. They cannot even say Krsna.
Prabhupada: They cannot say, "Krsna;" they say, "Krushna."
Dr. Patel: We call, "Kreshna." We call "Kreshna," you call, "Krsna," they call, "Krushna." These are different... We call, "rushi."
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhava-grahi janardana. But Krsna can understand who is asking for Him. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: All languages He understands. All languages are from om, and om is God. So all languages are God. Look at my arguments. Am I right or wrong.
Prabhupada: Why you are wrong? Krsna says, omkara sarva-vedesu:" I am omkara sarva-vedesu." [break] ...mental concoction.
Dr. Patel: Is a body.
Prabhupada: Anyone who has got this material body, he is not well. He may be possessing very stout and strong body, but he's not well. Because death is there. So well or no well, you have to meet death. So where is, where is the use of your...
Dr. Patel: What is this death? If you say, "You meet death," then you are a Mayavadi.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, no, no. I am speaking... I am answering your "well" and "not well." That's it. When there is death, then what is the use of calling "well" and "not well"?
Dr. Patel: "Well" and "not well," that's right.
Prabhupada: That is my point. If you can avoid death, disease, old age, then you are well. You cannot avoid all these things. You must become old man, you must die, you must be diseased; where is the meaning of this well? It is simply concoction. [ Where is happiness? Where is well-being? That they do not know. (aside:) Hare Krsna. That they do not know. Just like a man lying on sick bed, and some friends come, "How are you?" "Yes, today I am well." What is this "well"? You are lying on the sick bed, hospital, and you are speaking, "Yes, I am well." (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. There is no "well." So long you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, there is no question of "well." When you can avoid these things, then you are well. [break] ...but our independence. What is that independence? No rice, no geha. What is this independence? [break] (Hindi) "godless civilization" saba boka mare hai, bas. [break] ...take shelter of Krsna, everything is false. You cannot escape. (Hindi) The death is there. Mrtyuh sarva-haras caham [Bg. 10.34]. So at the end everything will be taken away by Krsna in the form of death. Mrtyuh sarva-haras caham. (japa) Everyone, especially the karmis, they think that they will live forever.
Mr. Sar: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is the most wonderful thing. Because everyone is dying, but the man who is not yet dead, he thinks that he'll live forever. This is the most wonderful thing. Ahanyahanya lokani gacchanti yama-mandiram, sesah sthitam icchanti kim ascaryam atha param (?). He does not think that "I'll have to die. So what I am doing?"
Guest (1): Swamiji, may I ask one question?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): You said this population is increasing. According to Hindu theory, we say that human life is very difficult and you get this human birth after great karmas and good deeds and all that. So this population is increasing and we are putting the birth control; and then the population of beasts and others that, the wild beasts, that is decreasing, although almost it has decreased.
Prabhupada: But they have no birth control.
Guest (1): No, no, just see. And then you see the population of these, for instance, chickens, pigs, and those, they have increased. So the population of human being that is increasing, is it due to these wild animals and other they have done good deeds, so they are coming up as a human being?
Prabhupada: First thing is, I am asking you, why you are bothering about the increase of population? First, that is my question. The animals, they do not bother. You are so advanced in knowledge. Why you are bothering? First of all answer this question.
Guest (1): No, no, but that is...
Prabhupada: The animals, they have got less intelligence. They never bother themselves, "The population is increasing." And you are advanced animal. Why you are so much bothered?
Guest (1): But that is...
Prabhupada: Then you are less intelligent than the animals. That is my argument. They are lower animals. They are begetting at one time one dozen children. They are not bothering. Why you are bothering? That means that you are less than the animals. Because you have got so much anxiety, "Why population increasing?" But they are not bothering. So you are less than animals.
Guest (1): No, no, my question is different.
Prabhupada: That is my answer. Why you are bothering the population increasing? Why you are bothering?
Guest (1): Because they think that the resources...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Some, there is some... There is some reason. But they have no such thing. So therefore they are advanced. They have no such anxiety. You are less than animal.
Guest (1): No, that's right Swamiji, but what my question is...
Prabhupada: That is... First answer is this, that you are bothered for increased population, but the animals are not. Therefore they are more advanced than you. They know that there is no botheration. Because in the Vedic injunction it is said, eko yo bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. Now, there are millions of elephants in Africa. Who is feeding them? Who is feeding them? They eat at one time one mound. Where the food is coming from? Why you are bothered? You'll take only one chataka. That means you are godless. You do not know who is supplying your food. You are less than animal. That is my answer.
Guest (1): Swamiji, my question is different.
Prabhupada: This is answer. You are very much...
Guest (1): No, that is...
Prabhupada: ...in anxiety.
Guest (2): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: He.
Guest (2): (Hindi) Human being, they are all coming as.
Prabhupada: No, no. Human being, that is a chance given to you to become human being, to understand God. And if you do not place yourself as human being, you must suffer. Just like (Hindi). Accha post. If you do not behave rightly, you are degraded. You are going to animal become.
Guest (1): No, but,...
Prabhupada: No, no, this is the nature's law. This is the nature's law, that some way or other, by evolutionary process, you come to the human being form, but if you remain as animal, then you go to animal again.
Guest (2): So animal me apne bolte hai (?).
Prabhupada: He.
Guest (2): Accha. So if population increase...
Prabhupada: The same example. Suppose by promotion, you come to a very nice post, but if you do not behave well, then you are degraded.
Guest (1): No, that I agree, Swamiji, ke admi yo he, karenge (?), they will go back as human beings. But (Hindi)
Prabhupada: But, bhala (Hindi)
Guest (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Now, why, why don't you understand.
Mr. Sar: Chance is given to you...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (2): (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: ...there is human form of life. If you do not know, then you remain animal. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca samanam etad pasubhih naranam: "Eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse, and defense -- this is there in the animals." And if you remain in that jurisdiction only -- eating, sleeping and sexual intercourse and defense -- you are animal, no more than animal. Why you are thinking that you are more than animal? You are animal. This is the sastric injunction. You are no better than animal because your business is eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Whole world is busy.
Guest (1): And then, Swamiji, this birth control, that means going against the...
Prabhupada: They are more than animals.
Guest (1): No, no, that just means going against the will of the God.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes.
Guest (1): Because God wants to bring them as human...
Prabhupada: Yes, this is a chance. Suppose if somebody's given chance to take opportunity and if you kill, that's a great sin. You cannot do that. You are obstructing his natural progress. Is that birth control (Hindi) European countries mai (?), he hasn't got soul, lump of matter, (Hindi) [break] As soon as you forget the duty of human life, then you are nothing but animal. This is the verdict of Hindu dharma, that if you do not properly behave as human being, you are no better than animal. Dharmena hina, (Hindi) ...will give him an animal body. This is nature's work. Yes, again come, again come (Hindi) But he does not do that.
Guest (3): But Swamiji, sexual intercourse after marriage is against law of Manu?
Prabhupada: No, that is also... There is law. You cannot have sexual intercourse with wife as you like, no. That is also illicit sex. Then... When the woman is in menstrual period, after five days, you can have once. As soon as she is pregnant, no more sexual intercourse. This is human being. Not that like animal. Animals also, they have got restrictions. You see? The lions, they have sexual intercourse once in life. Once in life. Brahmacari. You see? So as soon as you violate the laws, then you are animal. Because law is meant for man. Just like "Keep to the right" and "left" in the road. It is meant for human being, not for the dogs. Dog, if he keeps right or left, it is not under law. But if you keep your car instead of left to the right, then you are criminal. (pause) So which way we have to go?... Human life begins when he understands what is dharma. That is human life, beginning. Aushikha (?) (Hindi) Jaiye aur Hindu religion hai, Muslim religion hai, Christian religion hai, Buddhist religion hai, Jewish religion hai. The religion must be there. But when we give up this religious process, then there is no more human life; it is animal life. Hare Krsna.
Giriraja: So by that, there's a emblem of the theosophical colony.
Prabhupada: I see. Oh, yes, yes. [break] One old lady... You know, in the villages there is fair, or market. So in the morning she saw that so many hundreds of men have assembled. So one lady of that village, she thought that "They have become my guests." So she began to cry and was asking his son, her son, "Oh, how I can accommodate so many people? How can I receive them as guests?" So the son said, "My dear mother, don't be agitated. In the evening you come." So in the evening when she come, there was nobody. There was nobody, because a marketplace. So this botheration is just like the old lady. After seeing so many men, she is agitated. And in the evening there is none. So it requires intelligence, that "They are coming and going. Why I should be bothered about that? Let me do my duty as human being." That is required. (Hindi:) Ek sat me dekhila. [break] ...unlimited number of living entities. Ananta. Ananta means you cannot count. Within your body, within your stool, there are millions of living entities. They are provided, maintained, by your stool, by your urine. So why do you bother? If your stool and urine can provide so many living entities, why you bother yourself? (Hindi) You do your duty as human being. Dharmena hina pasubhih sa... Don't become animal. That is required. (Hindi) [break] ...the essence of knowledge. People are diverted in so many ways. Human duty is... (Hindi) [break] That is human duty. Be surrendered to God. That is your duty. Then everything will come automatically. Everything will come. And without knowledge, how you can take care? That is not possible.
Satsvarupa: Prabhupada, we're late for our meeting. [break]
Prabhupada: ...be strong. Now nobody cares for it.
Mr. Sar: All these movements at one time, sometimes Arya-samaja movement was very strong, sometimes another's. They come and go.
Prabhupada: But this Krsna movement is always strong. There are millions of Krsna temples in India, and the Arya-samajis tried to check people going to the temple, but they, they have gone away, and the temple is existing and millions of people still going to see the temple. In Jagannatha temple, in Vrndavana, thousands and thousands of men, still coming. All the South Indian temples.
Tamala Krsna: Tirupati.
Prabhupada: Tirupati.
Tamala Krsna: 25,000 people a day.
Guest (1): 25,000 years old?
Tamala Krsna: No, people are coming every day.
Prabhupada: But their income is more than one lakh of rupees daily.
Guest (1): Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Keno apnara?
Guest (3): (Hindi) [break]
Prabhupada: Accha. [break] ...that is our slogan. Satyam param dhimahi [SB 1.1.1]. Janmadyasya yatah. We explain this truth. the truth is that from whom everything comes. Janmadyasya yatah. So He's a person or imperson? No, abhijnah svarat. Tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye muhyanti yat surayah.
Devotee: Krsna says, "There's no truth superior to Me."
Prabhupada: Yes, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. The truth is there. They do not know. Half-educated. This is very good, "Truth is the..." We also say, but they do not know what is that truth.
Satsvarupa: They leave the question hanging, that "No man may actually know what it is." (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- February 17, 1974, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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