Relief only For First-class...

Rome, May 24, 1974
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Prabhupada: Anthropomorphic. That means man worship.Satsvarupa: They deify a man. He's a man but the people make him as a god.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: They say that about Krsna, that Krsna was a man, and then later His followers deified Him. That man wrote that in that pamphlet, Dr. Bannerjee, in Delhi.
Prabhupada: Oh, he has said like that? Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. So why they do not deify others? Only Krsna. There were many big, big men. All the Pandavas were very big men. Krsna was contemporate to the Pandavas. Why Krsna was picked up, and not the Pandavas? What is the reason?
Yogesvara: The Pandavas were the devotees of Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. This Anthropomorphism cannot be applied.
Satsvarupa: Their activities were not so great.
Prabhupada: Well, nobody's activities can be greater than God's activities.
Yogesvara: There was that lady who came to see you yesterday who asked that "Lord Jesus performed so many miracles. So what miracles did Krsna perform?" So your reply was so many miracles, killing Putana and so on. But that was five thousand years ago. Krsna's not here today. And people will ask, "Well we cannot see these miracles. So how can we accept Krsna?"
Bhagavan: Well they can't see Jesus's miracles either.
Prabhupada: (laughs) They can see the miracles of Jesus Christ?
Yogesvara: They will accept anyone.
Prabhupada: All such questions. No sober questions.
Atreya Rsi: Krsna's miracles are in the hearts of devotees today.
Bhagavan: Krsna's miracle is Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone can see. Who has given such information? All practical.
Bhagavan: There are so many scriptures all over the world, but just in the second chapter of Bhagavad-gita Krsna gives more knowledge than all of the other scriptures.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. It is the greatest miracle. These trees, not fruit trees?
Dhananjaya: No. [break]
Yogesvara: ...is that "Okay, you present Bhagavad-gita as being the evidence for Krsna, but so many people interpret Bhagavad-gita. So where is the proof that it is miraculous if so many people debate it?"
Prabhupada: What they will debate? If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion. Just like Krsna says, annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. So what is your debate on this point, that living entities, they flourish by food grains? So what is your debate on this point?
Yogesvara: Well, they may agree that the teachings are good, but they can't accept it as proof that Krsna was God.
Prabhupada: Well, then you have to give me definition of God. What is God? If you know God, then you can say that "Krsna is not God." Otherwise, how you can say He is not God? I give you a piece of gold: If you say, "It is not gold," then you show me what is gold. Otherwise, you are talking nonsense. If you do not know the things as it is, how you can say, "It is not this"? If you know the positive, then you can say the negative.
Yogesvara: Well, there are many people who say that they have actually experienced God.
Prabhupada: What is that God? Tell me.
Yogesvara: Well, it's like the Guru Maharaji people. They say they've seen Guru Maharaji lifting Govardhana Hill and displaying universal form and so many miracles. They say they have seen Guru Maharaji doing all the miracles that Krsna claims to have done.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna, when Krsna is present, when He lifted the Govardhana Hill, everyone saw. Where is your rascal Guru Maharaja doing that, everyone can see? When Krsna in Vrndavana, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. All the inhabitants saw it. [break]
Atreya Rsi: ...arising from Krsna's pastimes proves that atheists cannot understand Krsna. Because they are atheists, they don't want to accept Him as God. Therefore they will not...
Prabhupada: Atheist do not accept God anywhere. So atheist is different thing. Atheist is atheist. Asurim. Asurim bhavam asritah. Atheist has no knowledge. [break]
Dhananjaya: ...control the whole of Rome. They own nearly all the businesses. [break]
Atreya Rsi: ...a few enjoying very much. In the whole city, a lot of parks, a lot of amphitheaters and that is how they went to ruin.
Prabhupada: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. American luxury or European luxury leading to these hippies' poverty. Voluntarily they are accepting poverty. Opposite. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Pendulum.
Dhananjaya: What is that? (loud noise from birds)
Prabhupada: Cranes.
Dhananjaya: Cranes?
Satsvarupa: The zoo.
Dhananjaya: Those are pelicans, with the big bag underneath. And there are some South American animals, llamas. [break]
Prabhupada: ...fight with tiger and elephants?
Atreya Rsi: Lions.
Dhananjaya: They would use a trident and a net and they would try to throw the net over the lion and fight the lion like this.
Prabhupada: And kill?
Dhananjaya: And kill, yes. They would arm themselves with a helmet and some protection here for their arms and sometimes for their chest, and then they would attack with the trident. [break] Earlier Claudius.
Atreya Rsi: For enjoyment they would even put two gladiators fighting each other, two men killing each other, and they would all watch.
Prabhupada: Just see. That was in India also, that Kamsa's wrestling with Krsna. Yes.
Yogesvara: Was that to the death?
Prabhupada: Yes. It comes automatically to death. Although it is not meant. Nobody will agree that "I am defeated." Therefore death. There must be death. What is this building?
Dhananjaya: This is a mock mountain-top for the goats and for other wild animals.
Prabhupada: Oh, this is artificial?
Dhananjaya: Artificial.
Yogesvara: There's one. There's a goat. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- May 24, 1974, Rome

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© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

Stick to your Principles

Rome, May 28, 1974
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Prabhupada:Dhananjaya: In Greenland?Prabhupada: Others cannot live locally.
Satsvarupa: That's not their karma?
Prabhupada: No, karma is there. That is another point. My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating. And how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally?
Satsvarupa: One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won't know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow.
Prabhupada: No. They may go sometimes. Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking. It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment, it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country. That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective.
Dhananjaya: But people say they travel for education.
Prabhupada: What education? Hippies? Your education has ended into hippies. Finish that education, nonsense education. Now, you have seen in Harmonist that the school children, they are having sex intercourse publicly, and they are running naked in America. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Yes It's a very big thing now, running naked.
Dhananjaya: It's called "streaking."
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the nonsense education, result is like that. Is that education? I first, when I saw in Honolulu University -- all hippies, all the students, half naked and niggardly dressed. Why so many? They are all students. You see? It has become a fashion. This is the education. And one commissioner has... You have not seen our Harmonist prepared. Collapse.
Satsvarupa: I saw it yesterday. The president of Temple University, he said this was good, this running naked.
Prabhupada: And another has that "education has collapsed."
Dhananjaya: They have lost all sense of moral values.
Prabhupada: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now... It was covered by the progress of time. Now they are coming to be naked animals, that's all.
Yogesvara: So this is another problem for Bhagavan's book.
Prabhupada: No, no. That... You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Krsna consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required.
Yogesvara: Before he left, Bhagavan left me a list of questions. May I ask you some?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons.
Prabhupada: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. You have to... These people they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know. So their animal propensities are being adjusted this way, that way, this way, that way. Just like they go to see naked dance. The animal propensity -- he is seeing his wife daily naked, and still he is going to see naked dance, and paying some fees. Because they have no engagement except this animalism. Is it not? So what is the use of going to see another woman naked? You are seeing every day, every night, your wife naked. Why you are... Because they have no other engagement. The animals. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. That a dog, it does not know what is the taste. He is simply chewing the, one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement. So this whole society is animal. Especially the westerners. And they have developed a civilization on that animal propensities, means "I am this body, and the best use of my life is to gratify senses." This is animal. "I am this body." Body means the senses. "And to satisfy the senses is the highest perfection." This is their civilization. So you have to introduce real human civilization. You should not be surprised, an animal, in different shapes, in different capacity, comes out. After all, he is an animal. The basic principle is animalism. Because he is thinking, "I am this body..." As the dog is thinking, "I am dog, very stout and strong dog," so another man is thinking, "I am big nation." But what is the basic principle? A dog is also thinking on the basis of his body, and this big nation is also thinking on the basis of body. So there is no difference between this dog and this big nation. The only difference is that human being, by nature's gift, he got better senses. So... And he has no power, or there is no education to utilize the better senses, how to advance spiritually and get out of this material world. That he has no sense. He is simply using that better intelligence for animalism. This is the meaning. He has no education how to utilize the better intelligence. Therefore he is utilizing only in animalism. And people all over the world, when they see the westerners, "They are advanced." What is that? Advancing in animalism. Basic principle remains the animalism. They become surprised. They also imitate. So they are expanding animalism, animal civilization. Now we have to counteract for the benefit of the human civilization.
Satsvarupa: They are so ignorant that...
Prabhupada: An animal is always ignorant.
Satsvarupa: When we stress on this point, they become very shocked that we talk like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na...(?)
Satsvarupa: "You are calling us animals?"
Prabhupada: Yes, they are animals. Yes. If they are sensible, they can understand, now, what is the difference. A dog is thinking, "I am very stout and strong dog." He has, on the basis of his body. And another man, a big American, thinks, "We are very big nation, powerful nation." So what is the difference between these? The basic principle is there, the bodily consciousness. Therefore it is animalism. Is it not? The basic principle has not changed. Suppose a pickpocket... The same story, Alexander the Great and the thief. He was arrested, and when he convinced him that "What is the difference between you and me? You have got good military strength. You are conquering. And I have got my knife and another thing. I am just going and plundering. So you are also plundering, I am plundering. Why you have caught me? What right you have got to punish me? Because we are the same. You are doing in a larger scale, I am doing in a small scale. That is the difference." So he was set free, "Yes." Alexander the Great, he was sensible man, "Yes, what I am doing? The same thing in a bigger scale that's all." So these rascal, actually, they are animals, but they are declaring advancement. What advancement? The same thing: eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That is animal... The dogs also do like that. They also eat, they also sleep, they have sex life. Now they are coming to the dog's life. A dog, just like street, they have sex life. They are coming, advance. This is advancement, that "We have become now pure dog. So long it was hidden, now we are open." This is the civilization, animal civilization.
Yogesvara: So many social reformers will agree with you...
Prabhupada: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. The so-called leader he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. Just see. This is going on. Where is the human being?
Dhananjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.
Prabhupada: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?
Dhananjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog.
Prabhupada: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact.
Yogesvara: So here's a practical problem. People would be interested to know our position on divorce. Here in Rome they just passed a divorce law.
Prabhupada: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is also animalism. So that is your decision. They are animals, and different way they are coming to be naked animal, that's all. The divorce is also dog's business. Dog is having sex intercourse with this female dog and another, another, another, another. It is animalism, That's all.
Yogesvara: But people are objecting that: If we cannot get divorced, then we are forced to live with each other even if we hate each other."
Prabhupada: But hate each other, that's all right. We say what is the use of your sexual intercourse? That is animalism. You avoid it. Our Vedic civilization is to avoid it. Therefore they remain brahmacari, naisthika-brahmacari, no sexual intercourse in the whole life. That is perfection.
Yogesvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.
Prabhupada: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Sukadeva Gosvami. He remained completely brahmacari, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyasadeva, a personality like Vyasadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahamsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are grhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyasi. What is sannyasi? Vanaprastha, sannyasi, brahmacari -- no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacari has no sex life, the vanaprastha has no sex life, the sannyasi has no sex life. Only the grhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed -- it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45]. The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated nicely. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyasa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility. So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duhkha-bhajah. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyasa." That's all. Why you marry? Because he finds that after marriage there are so many difficulties. So irresponsible man. So after there is difficulties; that's a fact. So why should you go to the difficulty? Therefore the conclusion is the married life is not required. But if you cannot tolerate, all right, get this concession, live very gentlemanly. This is marriage. Otherwise for higher sense, higher elevation... High elevation, of course, one who is actually on the higher elevation, he is married or not married, it doesn't matter. But on the whole, the sex life is not necessary.
Yogesvara: So these Italian women are complaining now that their husbands are abusing them, so why can they not get divorced?
Prabhupada: Why do you marry?
Yogesvara: Obviously, they wanted sex in the beginning, but they didn't know it was going to be so much trouble.
Prabhupada: That is our point. Then why do you marry? Just begin Krsna conscious, and you will find, without sex, you will be happy.
Yogesvara: But what do we advise such women?
Prabhupada: Whatever they, others women, they may take lesson from them that, "If these woman are suffering or these men are suffering, why should we marry?" There is a Bengali proverb, dekhe sekhe and tekhe sekhe (?). One who is intelligent, he can see what is happening, he becomes cautious. And one, when actually experienced, then he becomes cautious. Less intelligent. So if it is not good, why you are marrying? Why you are induced by sex life? Stop it by Krsna consciousness. If you devote yourself, the whole life, in Krsna consciousness you will not be agitated by any sex life. And that is yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde. If one is actually advanced in Krsna consciousness, he will deride, "Huh! Nonsense! What is this?" That is Krsna consciousness, advancement. The only remedy, prime remedy for all solution, is Krsna conscious. That we have to say. So answers are all right or not?
Yogesvara: No, very nice. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Krsna prasadam and chant whole day and night Hare Krsna. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called

anartha, unwanted things.
anarthopasamam saksad
bhakti-yogam adhoksaje
lokasyajanato vidvams
cakre satvata-samhitam
 [SB 1.7.6]

These are all anarthas, unwanted things. So to stop these anarthas is bhakti-yoga. Anartha upasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje, lokasya. These rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. Vidvan, the most learned man Vyasadeva has written this Srimad-Bhagavatam.

anarthopasamam saksad
bhakti-yogam adhoksaje
lokasyajanato vidvams
cakre satvata-samhitam
 [SB 1.7.6]

This is all described. First of all, the first defect is that you are eternal spirit soul. Why you should be entangled with this material body? That is the first fault. That is anartha. I am spirit soul. Why shall I accept this material body? That is my basic principle of unwanted things. And to make solution how to get out of this material entanglement. And that is... Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. After leaving this body, now this is the last, and then I am not coming to this material world. How? Simply by Krsna consciousness. Pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat, gurur na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. The Bhagavata says that "One should not become parent, father and mother, one should not become guru, one should not become friend, one should not become husband" -- these are the guardians -- "if one cannot release his dependent from this repetition of birth and death." This is civilization. This is civilization. Not that "I am now human being; I shall become demigod. Or I am dog, I shall become human being." The karmis, they are thinking this is advancement. This is not advancement. Real advancement: no more accepting any material body. That is the real advancement. Just finish. This sense can come in human form of life, that "I have suffered so much. I have come through so many species of life. Now I have got sense." So the reply is there that mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti: [Bg. 8.15] "Anyone who comes to Me, he does not come again to this miserable condition of material existence." We should take advantage of this. That is human civilization. What is this human civilization? Jumping like dog, in a motorcar, that's all. This is not civilization. This is dog civilization, that's all. And actually what benefit they have derived? They are not satisfied. One man has got this car, and next year another car, another car. And the car manufacturer also giving fashion. "This is 1974 edition, this is 1975 edition." And they are earning money with hard labor. "All right, get a motorcar." And again, next year change. What is this civilization? No satisfaction. They do not know where is the point of satisfaction. It is dog civilization.
Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada, the way you've been describing our solutions to the problems of the world, they seem to be on two levels. One is the extended solution, that is to say, the ultimate solution of Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of extended. You keep yourself in a limited solution. And then, when it is appreciated it will be automatically extended. You don't touch the extended. You become ideal civilized man. Others will follow.
Yogesvara: Well, for example, ultimately, we want to live locally. These cities are not necessary.
Prabhupada: No, you make the best use of a bad bargain. We shall depend more... Just like in New Vrindaban. They are coming to the city for preaching. So not absolutely we can abstain immediately because we have been dependent so long, many, many lives. You cannot. But the ideal should be introduced gradually. And make it perfect more and more and more and more. But there is possibility. Possibility if you live locally and make your arrangement, you get your foods... The real necessity is, bodily necessity is, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is necessity. So if you can eat locally, you can sleep locally, you can have your sex life also locally and you can defend locally, then what is the wrong? These are the necessities. We are not stopping this. We are not stopping, "No more sex life." That is nonsense, another nonsense. You must have. Marry. That's all. So you can marry locally and live. Where is the difficulty? Defend. If somebody comes to attack, there must be men to defend. And eating and sleeping. Where is your difficulty? Manage locally, as far as possible. After all, these are the necessities of body. So it can be solved locally. Is it impossible? To solve the bodily necessities? What do you think? Is it impossible?
Satsvarupa: No, it's very simple.
Prabhupada: Then do it. Do it. Set example perfectly. This is nice park. Yes. You can have your park locally. Where is the difficulty? Garden. Fruits, flowers, garden. There is park. Also you can have a pond like this. People are doing that locally. In Bengal especially. Whole Bengal was a garden. It was so nice. Whole Bengal was a garden.
Dhananjaya: I noticed this when I took the train from Calcutta to Krishnanagar. Once you get further out, it's so nice, the villages. There is the pond there.
Prabhupada: And... Why Calcutta? You go to the airport. You will find so nice gardens, still existing. Now it is spoiled also. Because people have changed locally to the city. Nobody has to take care now. Otherwise, in Bengal especially, throughout the whole India, Bengal was so beautiful. The Europeans became attracted by the beauty of Bengal. Therefore they made Calcutta their capital, the Britishers. Yes. Every European liked Bengal. Every European. I met one European German gentleman in Bombay. He was in Calcutta. When I was in Bimha (?). So I asked, "Why you left Calcutta?" "Oh, I am very sorry. Calcutta was so nice." And actually. Where we have got our temple, these quarters were known as "Sahib" quarter. Just like our temple is "Sahib" temple. So these Chowringee and Camac Street, Park, these were all European. They liked very much to live in Bengal. And there is another story. One English officer he became attracted by the beauty of a Bengali woman. There is story by Bankima Candra. Candrashekhara. The man was after that woman, how to get it. That is the subject matter of story. He was attracted by the black eyes and black hair. Bengali beauty.
Yogesvara: Krsna has black hair, too.
Prabhupada: Why do you bring Krsna here? This is all sense gratification. (laughter) But that is very good that even in talking this material, you remembered Krsna. That is very good. You remember Krsna. When childish playing, if you remember Krsna's childhood, that is very good. That is very good. Some way or other, if you get the chance of remembering Krsna, that is advancement.
Satsvarupa: Even if the example is not so clear or good.
Prabhupada: That doesn't matter. You remember Krsna some way or other. Krsna does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Krsna.
Yogesvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem. My workers are striking for higher pay and no one is satisfied So what can I do?"
Prabhupada: Yes, you take to Krsna consciousness.
Yogesvara: Well, he wants to know, "How can I apply that in my factory?"
Prabhupada: You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kirtana and give them prasadam. It will be solved. And give them lecture and philosophy. We can take. Let us have the charge. Then see how we can do. Or you follow our instruction. But that you will not. You want to exploit these poor fellows, and you are coming to us for solution. You first of all give up the spirit of exploiting. Then it will be solved. You have come to take our advice how to exploit them.
Yogesvara: So he would ask, "Do I have to close my factory?"
Prabhupada: No, we shall run on the factory. You give us in charge. We don't want anything from you. Let us manage. I can manage. Just organize sankirtana. It will be solved. Now, these factory men works and goes home. So if you say that "You come early in the morning and you take prasadam here and chant Hare Krsna half an hour," they will immediately agree. Immediately agree. And give them good prasadam and have chanting for one hour. They will be all submissive. Is it not? Will they not agree? At least, they will see that "We haven't got to spend money for our food at home. We shall get nice food here. Let us chant. What is the harm?" And as soon as he chants, he becomes a gentleman. That's all.
Yogesvara: So because we will have cut down his expenses, he will be satisfied with the pay that he has. We would not have to give him more money.
Prabhupada: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Krsna conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Krsna. Then the solution is there.
Yogesvara: So in other words the workers are unsatisfied because they see that the managers are exploiting them, but if they see the managers are giving the money to Krsna, they will feel satisfied.
Prabhupada: Yes, and they will also give. Krsna becomes the proprietor. Everyone is satisfied.
Dhananjaya: Jaya. This is varnasrama institution.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is above varnasrama. It is above varnasrama. Varnasrama there is give and take, but here there is no give and... Here is simply give, no take. That is above varnasrama.
Dhananjaya: So the workers are giving to the devotees and the devotees are giving to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Krsna. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not.
Satsvarupa: It is getting a little late. We should...
Prabhupada: Which way we shall go?
Dhananjaya: Just up here. [break]
Satsvarupa: ...their nuts and bolts.
Prabhupada: No, nuts, if there is demand, let this go on. Why shall I shut down. But we cannot run on this slaughterhouse... (end)

 

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Prabhupada: In the material world, everyone is given the facilities for eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Now, if some dangers come, so we may be victims, but a bird immediately goes. He has better defense. Is it not? If some dangers come immediately... Suppose all of a sudden a motorcar comes and kills us. We cannot do anything, but the bird, small bird, "Hut!" He can do that. Is it not? So his defensive measure is better than us. Similarly, I want to have sex. I have to arrange for that, find out some... But the female bird is always around him, at any time. This sparrow, the pigeon. You have seen it? Immediately ready for sex life. And eating? Oh, there is some fruit. Immediately he can eat. And sleeping? That is also very comfortable. So these facilities, don't think that it is available on this skyscraper building. They are available for the birds and the beasts. It is not that unless you have got a very nice apartment in the skyscraper building, you cannot have all these facilities of eating, sleeping and sex life. Anywhere. Visayah khalu sarvatah syat. This is called visaya. Visaya means the facilities for sense enjoyment. That is called visaya. Our process is visaya chadiya se rase majiya. One has to give up this visaya and relish the transcendental bliss. It is a different platform. And these persons, bodily concept of life, their only enjoyment is this visaya. So sastra says that you are after visaya. This is available in any life. Why you are repeating this visaya in different forms of life either as bird or beast or tree or human being or cats and dogs? Punah punas carvita carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Again and again, the same thing, in different forms. So those who are interested with this visaya, matir na krsne paratah svato va, they cannot become Krsna conscious, paratah, by instruction of spiritual master or experienced person, or by themselves. Themselves, they cannot. Even by instruction by the spiritual master or higher authorities. Paratah. Svatah, personally, or by others' instruction, matir na krsne, they cannot become Krsna conscious. Mitho 'bhipadyeta. Mithah, or by conference, consulting, making a meeting, "What is the problem of life?" They cannot take to Krsna consciousness. Why? Grha-vratanam. So long they have got this determination, "We shall be happy in this material world," they cannot take... Grha-vratanam. Grha means home and grha means this body also. Those who are trying to be happy within this body, material world, they cannot take to Krsna consciousness. Matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam. Why they cannot? Adanta-gobhih: their senses are so uncontrolled. Therefore they must undergo the process of punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], again and again, the same visaya: eating, sleeping, mating. That's all.Nitai: So our business is to convince them that they can't be happy in the material world?
Prabhupada: Yes. That they have got experience. Therefore daily they are founding so many parties, manufacturing so many means and plans and this and that, but they are not happy. But they are so fool, great fool, that in spite of being repeatedly baffled, still, punah punas carv..., the same thing, under different form. What is the difference between these rascal communists and capitalists? After all, they are animals. How they can make things, better arrangement? That is not possible. The only thing... This man will say, "Exploit others," and other man shall, "Give food to the others." What is there? Give food to the others or exploit -- the same animal propensity. Where is the advancement? The capitalists are thinking, "Exploit others." The same thing, like animals. This dog, as soon as he saw the shadow of his own body with the food, he thought that "Let me capture that food." This is exploitation. And another will say "No, first of all give food." So they are fighting like this. So everyone's aim is that we shall remain within this material world and happy. Therefore grha-vratanam.
Satsvarupa: If we can get enough to eat and sex, we will be happy.
Prabhupada: That's all. And then they become impotent and go to the doctor, "Give me sex medicine." You see? Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. The same thing. Not at home sex, but "Let us go to the prostitute, go to the naked dance." They have no other ideas. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. These class of men cannot take to Krsna consciousness. First of all, one must be in knowledge that "I am not anything of this material world. I am spirit soul. My happiness is in the spiritual world." Then he can be.
Haihaya: Some people say that what make us different from the animals is that we can enjoy art and we can enjoy music and we can enjoy all type of art...
Prabhupada: The animals... the snake also can enjoy music. Do you know that? You play very nice music. A snake will be charmed. He will stand. It will not attack you. Similarly the deers... The hunters, they play very nice music, and they assemble here, and they fight and kill them.
Nitai: The birds are also making their music.
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing. But these deer and the snakes, many animals, they are very much fond of music. They enjoy.
matir na krsne paratah svato va
mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam
adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram
punah punas carvita-carvananam
 [SB 7.5.30]
Next question is "How one can become interested in the spirit soul or Krsna consciousness? How?" This is the position. They cannot. So next proposal is, "How they can be?" Naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim sprsaty anartha..., yad-arthagamam, niskincananam, pada-rajo-'bhisekam.
naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim
sprsaty anarthapagamo yad-arthah
mahiyasam pada-rajo-'bhisekam
niskincananam (na vrnita yavat)
 [SB 7.5.32]
Naisam matih. Esam, "of these rascals and fools," matih, "consciousness," cannot be turned. Naisam urukramanghrim, "towards the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, Urukrama." Urukrama means "one who acts very wonderful." And his lotus feet. So naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim: "Their attention cannot be converted or turned towards the lotus feet of Krsna who acts very wonderfully." Anartha apagamah: "And all these misconcepts of life becomes vanquished." How it can be? Now, "So long one does not touch his head to the dust of a devotee of the Lord who is niskincana, who has nothing to do with this material world, that devotee, who is simply interested in Krsna." If one has got the opportunity of touching his head to the lotus feet, to the dust of the lotus feet of such a great devotee, then it is possible. Otherwise, it is not. Niskincana, mahiyasam pada-rajo 'bhisekam. Mahiyasam, such glorified devotee, the dust of the lotus feet, can help him, that's all. Naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim sprsaty anartha [SB 7.5.32].
Satsvarupa: The pure devotee gives the chance to everyone, but only a few approach. So still the question is how can they become interested in the pure devotee?
Prabhupada: No, this is the..., that you do it. If they do not do it, then who will come? This declaration is there, that "If you do this, then you can be interested." But if you do not, then you go on with your own business. A similar... The same things Krsna, sarva-dharman parit... mam ekam. Krsna is demanding that you do it, "Surrender unto Me." The sastra also says, "Surrender unto the representative of Krsna," mahiyasam. But if they do not do, what can be done? Just see this sparrow. The sex is always accompanying, any time ready. The pigeons, any time ready. Visayah khalu sarvatah syat. That is the only attachment for this material world, visaya. Whole world is fighting for this visaya. "I must have nice eating, I must have nice sleeping, I must have very good sex, and I should be defended by bank balance, by military soldiers, by police force, by atomic weapons." This is going on. Defense. Rascal does not understand that "In spite of all these things, I will have to change the body, and the same thing will be available again, in a different way." This intoxication, cigarettes. The ant, the small ant, they are very fond of intoxication. You know that? As soon as there is information, "On the top of the skyscraper building, there is a grain of sugar," they will go. (laughing) Because sugar contains intoxication. The wine is made from sugar, molasses. It has got the intoxication. You keep a grain of sugar there, and there will be hundreds and thousands... (laughter) Gold rush. Study. You see what is the difference of this civilization and the ant civilization, dog civilization, cat civilization. No difference. It is in the simply formation only.
Dhananjaya: Yes, I've seen sometimes at the Sunday Feast we make some sweets, like sweetballs, and there's some left over. They'd find the next day so many drowned ants, because they'd been so wild, they'd jump into it and drown themselves.
Prabhupada: So sastra says, labdhva su-durlabham idam bahu-sambhavante: "My dear human being, please note. You have got this form of life after many many births, bahu-sambhavante. You had to undergo the aquatic life, 900,000 species, the birds, trees and plants, two million. How much time it has gone by for this evolution. Now you have come to the human form of life." Labdhva su-durlabham idam bahu-sambhavante manusyam: "This is human form of life." Artha-dam: "Now you can achieve success. Although it is temporary, but you can achieve the highest perfection of life. Therefore," turnam yateta anumrtyu yavat, "before next death, you be very dexterous to complete the success." And if you think, then what about my sense enjoyment? Visayah khalu sarvatah syat: "It will be available any life. This life you spend for this purpose. Don't waste simply for visaya." Visayah khalu sarvatah syat. This you will get even if you become cat and dog. But in the cat and dogs, I will not get this opportunity, how to get out of this material existence. Labdhva su-durlabham idam bahu-sambhavante. These are the instructions of Prahlada. These rascals have no education to understand. Therefore we must give this education. We must induce them to read these books in the school, colleges. That is propaganda. Now we have got books. These rascals, they have no books to read about this realization. They have got only Freud's philosophy and this... What is that? And Darwin's theory. All rascaldom, simply rascaldom. Let them read these books. This philosopher, that philosopher. What is that? Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. The same philosophy, repeatedly for sense gratification, that's all. That rascal Mahesh Yogi, he also said that, "You take this special mantra; your material enjoyment will be easier." The same: the punah punas carvita. He has no other information. "It will be better." And they accepting. "Oh, my enjoyment will be better? All right, take $35. Give me that mantra." They like it because they are promising that "You will get this..." Politicians also, they are promising, "You take this ism. Your sense gratification will be easier." The same promise. This ism or that ism. This yogi, that yogi. But nobody knows what is actually happiness. Harer nama harer nama harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha [SB 7.5.31]. They are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, material body's enjoyment. Durasaya. It is simply a hope which will never be fulfilled. Durasaya. Asaya means hope and dur means very difficult. It will not be possible. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. And they are being led by such rascal leaders, who are promising sense gratification. Because they are blind, another blind man comes and says that "You will be happy in this way. Come on this way. Your sense gratification will be very much easily satisfied. come on." "Yes. Very good leader." Adanta-gobhih. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pi [SB 7.5.31]. They forget that they are bound up by the stringent laws of nature. There is no freedom. Only varieties of sense enjoyment is offered because he want, want, wants. Actually, that is not enjoyment. That is bound up. Nature's... If you enjoy more sex life, nature says, "All right, you become impotent for ten years." And still he wants to enjoy. Little this way, that way -- immediately punishment. "Oh, you have eaten more, three days suffer. No diet, no food. Suffer dysentery." And they are enjoying. What is this enjoyment? As soon as violate a little of the nature's law you are immediately punished. Na te viduh. Isa-tantryam baddhah. Isa-tantryam, the laws of nature, they are so much bound up, hands and legs. Still, they are declaring freedom. What is the freedom? Immediately he will be kicked by shoes as soon as he violates a little, immediately. There is ocean of salt. Now we require salt for making our foodstuff very tasty. But if you take little more salt, you cannot eat. No, you cannot eat. If you think, "Oh, so much salt? Let me put more salt, more salt," it will be useless. You can take only so much quantity. That's all. In this way you are bound up, always. And still, you are declaring freedom. What freedom? What is the meaning of this freedom? But they are fools. They cannot understand.
Haihaya: Then Krsna consciousness is the right quantity of salt.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna consciousness is giving you everything in right way so that you can save your time, you do not waste your time, and you can advance in Krsna consciousness. That is required. We don't say that you stop eating. You eat. Take little Krsna prasadam. We don't say that "Don't sleep." No, you sleep, but must rise early in the morning for mangala-arati. This is our philo... Eating, sleeping, and sex. No, we don't say no sex life. Yes, you have sex life. Get your bona fide wife, live peacefully. And defense also, we have. We never say that you forego all these things. No, this is not our philosophy. But similarly, as much as you absolutely require, not more than that. The balance time, save for advancement. These people are simply engaged for eating, sleeping, mating. They have no time for Krsna consciousness. This condemned civilization must be stopped. Killing, killing civilization. The human being got the opportunity of getting out of this punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], repeatedly, and they are not being given the chance. They are being engaged more and more for sense gratification, visaya. Killing civilization. Jnana-tapasa. Bahavo jnana-tapasa puta mad-bhavam agatah. By this process, bahavah, many, by knowledge and tapasya. Putah, purified, came back, back to home. Bahavo jnana-tapasa puta mad-bhavam agatah. Vita-raga-bhaya-krodha man-maya mam upasritah, bahavo jnana-tapasa puta mam... [Bg. 4.10]. What is that, last word?
Nitai: Mad-bhavam agatah.
Prabhupada: Ah, mad-bhavam agatah. Mad-bhavam, "My nature." "My nature" means spiritual nature. Krsna is spirit. Or the another nature. This is material nature. This is another nature. That is kingdom of God, spiritual nature, Vaikuntha planet. Agatah: "They came." Every information is there, every opportunity is there. Simply they are not educated. Therefore the Krsna consciousness movement is meant for educating these rascals. That's all. They are mad after sense gratification. Nunam pramattah, mad. From the morning, as soon as they rise, "Give me a cup of tea, immediately I have to go to there and there and there." What you will do then? "Yes, I will die. I will die in a motor accident. They are waiting for me." All right, go. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. All kinds of forbidden works they are doing. What? What is the purpose? Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma yad indriya-pritaye. Purpose is only sense gratification. The rascal does not know that "I am doing all these sinful activities for sense gratification, and I will have to accept a very low-grade body." That he does not know. He has already got one low-grade body. He is suffering only. And he will still get another low-grade body, more suffering. That he does not know. But still, he will do everything for sense gratification. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti na sadhu manye: [SB 5.5.4] "Oh, it is not good." Na sadhu manye yata atmano' yam: "This kind of activities will cover your soul by body." "Well, this body is temporary. Don't bother." Then another body, rascal. This body is temporary, but you get another body, most abominable. Why you are doing like this? Asann api. Although this body is temporary, but why don't you understand that it is klesada: It is always subjected to miserable condition of material life. Klesada. This is klesada, another body you get, klesada. Any body you get, klesada. Why do you get this? Stop these activities. This is Krsna consciousness. That they do not know. Da means "that gives." Any type of material body you accept will be klesada. They have constructed this building. If for few hours there is severe cold, so many people will die, even in this comfortable building. Is it not? So klesada is there; either you remain in this way or that way, the sufferings will be there. And to take this comfort of this high building, how much klesada, how much miserable condition, one has to pass. "Sir, I am not doing; the workers are doing." But you have to collect the money to pay them. How much miserable it is to acquire this money to pay another klesada, laborer. So simply they are captivated by money. Otherwise it is klesada. Sometimes they fall down and die while constructing. Is it not? Now, I have heard that in New York there are many buildings and there is no tenant. Klesada. The proprietor of the house, he is also suffering. "I have spent so much money. No tenant." In London I have seen there is, for the last six or seven years, very big building. It is vacant.
Dhananjaya: Tottenham Court Road. Yes, that big one. Central Point.
Prabhupada: Yes (laughing). His klesada is if he keeps tenant, that is more miserable than without keeping tenant. Is it not? Yes. Therefore he keeps without. Because so much taxes will have to be paid that it will be more miserable than keeping tenants. So he is avoiding that. So while constructing, it was troublesome; now, keeping this, it is also troublesome. To find out pleasure they have manufactured so many things. But still, they cannot enjoy it. For few minutes they can enjoy; again it is nonsense. "Let us go away." [break]
Satsvarupa: ...that I can actually become a bird or a dog because...
Prabhupada: What are these... Wherefrom these birds and dogs are coming? Let them answer. Wherefrom they are coming?
Nitai: Well, they would say from other birds and dogs.
Prabhupada: Yes, other birds or these birds, wherefrom they are coming?
Satsvarupa: But that's not my condition. I am a human being.
Prabhupada: That you may think, but you do not know the nature's law. You have to accept. Just like this apartment, either you accept or somebody accept. Similarly, these bodies are apartment. You have to accept or your brother has to accept. Somebody must accept. They are also living entities. Wherefrom they are coming? As I am a living entity, they are also living entity. So changing body, I may change to that body, he may change to this body. Where is the unreasonableness? We are all living entities. These are different types of bodies. So we have to accept some body. Similarly, he has to accept some body. So he may accept my body, I may accept his body. This apartment change. I may go to this apartment, he may go to another apartment. But there are so many apartments, grha. Therefore it is called grhamedhi. If you say, "No, no, I am not going to accept that apartment." "No, no, it is not your judgement." Daiva-netrena. "What money you have got, sir, to occupy?" "I have no money." "All right, then go this apartment." You must accept. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. By your work it will be ascertained what kind of apartment you will get. It is not upon your decision. There are so many, many rascals. They think that after getting human body, he is never degraded. The theosophists think like that. That is very palatable. (laughing) But nature will force him to accept the body of a cat and dog. That is not your decision. Daiva-netrena, the superior decision. Just in office, you get promotion or degradation. That is not your decision. That is the decision of the higher directors. You cannot say that "No, no, I am not going to accept this post." No. You have to accept. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. These different types of birth are due to your association with different types of the modes of material nature. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties. One has become crow, one has become sparrow, one has become human being, one has become dog, one has become cat, one has become tree, one has become grass. But nature is so expert that in spite of different varieties of life, the nature assembles them in such a nice way that it looks beautiful. There is grass, there is tree, there is sparrow, there is human being, but arrangement is such nice that everything... (end)

 

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Yogesvara: That dharma by which the soul becomes fully satisfied, can it be found anywhere else aside from Krsna conscious?Prabhupada: I don't think. Because they are all ahaituki; there is motive. Motive. And conditional. Therefore it is very difficult. And it is clearly said, ahaituky apratihata. [break]
Dhananjaya: ...the founder of our International Society for Krsna Consciousness.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you.
Dhananjaya: This is Prabhupada's first visit to Rome, to Italy.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh yes. You will stay some days here.
Bhagavan: You have visited India?
Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, I have been many times, yeah, in India.
Bhagavan: You have been to Vrndavana.
Cardinal Pignedoli: No, I have been to Varanasi, to Calcutta, to Bombay, Agra, Darjeeling and many other places in... Nepal also.
Prabhupada: Nepal. My birthplace is in Calcutta.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, very nice. In Delhi, and Monsignor too, he has visited all the places, huh?
Monsignor Verrozano: South India.
Cardinal Pignedoli: In Kerala?
Monsignor Verrozano: Kerala, Tirusrilapatti(?), Cochin, Madras, Bombay of course. Yes, last year I attended a kind of manifestation of your movement in Bombay.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, I visited.
Prabhupada: Bombay, there was function.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes.
Prabhupada: At that time, you were there?
Monsignor Verrozano: In January.
Dhananjaya: At Cross Maidan.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes.
Dhananjaya: That was our festival. The Bhagavata-dharma discourses.
Bhagavan: We had a festival program in India. We've had one in Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, and for one week, and Srila Prabhupada has spoken many times every night there. There's been thousands of people, ten thousand people.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, yes. And just last year about the 20th of January, it was this week of festivals also, this conscience of preaching sermons, many manifestations. Many people attended, and I too visited this, yes, also.
Prabhupada: In Calcutta also we had such functions. About thirty thousand people were coming in Bombay.
Monsignor Verrozano: Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world.
Prabhupada: Yes. Our movement is that, that is first-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Srimad-Bhagavatam,
sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhoksaje
ahaituky apratihata
yayatma suprasidati
 [SB 1.2.6]
If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhoksaja. Adhoksaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, adhoksaja. Aksaja means experimental knowledge. Aksa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhagavata-dharma. So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedanta-sutra, Vedanta philosophy. The Vedanta philosophy teaches, athato brahma jijnasa, "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms..." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athato brahma jijnasa. Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused. If we simply spoil our life like the animals, eating, sleeping, sex life and defending, then the human life is spoiled like animals. The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana, the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God, as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktva deham... Deham means this body. After this death... There are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], he does not enter again into the material body. In his original spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. So this is sum and substance of our Krsna consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. So we have published Bhagavad-gita As It Is. The publisher is Messrs. MacMillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty-thousand copies and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Srimad-Bhagavatam which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhagavatam, and explained. Then... This is graduate study. Then after this there is post-graduate study, this Caitanya-caritamrta. This book is in twelve volumes, and other book, Bhagavatam, is sixty volumes. There are many other corollaries, just like Science of Devotion. Have you got this book? No. Nectar of Devotion. So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the western countries. Recently we have received report. Some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introducing in their class. Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography, of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold four millions pieces of literature in the western countries. So we are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Krsna consciousness movement. And amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad-gita you will find this verse. Find out.
yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
 [Bg. 7.28]
Yesam, y-e-s-a-m. A person who is completely free from all sinful contamination, such person can become a pure devotee of God. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam, te dvandva-moha-nirmukta. Read it.
Nitai:
yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
 [Bg. 7.28]
"Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Nitai: Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse. For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate. Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is possible in Krsna consciousness in the association of pure devotees who can deliver one from delusion.
It is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated he must render service to the devotees; but one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion. The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law. Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality or to be fully engaged in His transcendental loving service with determination.
Prabhupada: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles, they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Always think of Me," man-mana. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me, and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, you chant always God's name on these beads.
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
(buzzer sounds) And we worship... (pause) (one man is apparently showing pictures) This is also a church?
Monsignor Verrozano: This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama.
Prabhupada: Buddhism.
Monsignor Verrozano: Buddhist, but this is from India.
Prabhupada: This is Hindu temple.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. The Mahakrish(?).
Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, I think that because you are friends of God, we are friends of God, we are all friends and this is good. But I think that, if I understand it well, that your aim is to reach people who are unbelievers or people who are atheistic, as you said before. And then I would like to know... You are not obliged, you are completely free to do what you want. But I would like to know if you got into these places or amongst these people... There are many places and many peoples in the world who are in these conditions, without faith and without the spiritual values. Because it is for us, we hope so. We are good friends of God, and we are always in our prayers and meditation united to God, and to... But we thank you for your visit and for your, for this reason we are good friends altogether. But I would like to know historically your work, I mean if you go into these areas or into these places where is possible. For instance, take the example of Russia, eh? Now you are in good relations. India and Russia probably for Indians it is easier than for Europeans or for some of our countries or for Americans. Are you... Have you this problem? Do you go into these areas, into these places?
Prabhupada: Yes. I went to Moscow. I was invited.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Because they need badly. They need this spirit of friendship with God and with His supreme values. God... Well, I wouldn't say to the Moslem world because they are good believers. And God is probably, they are more faithful to. And for instance, these areas of the modern world like, also in the States sometimes, because these big cities like New York or Tokyo or Toronto, and some, these are cities, where they are areas where spiritual values have no meaning for these people. It's a pity and we have to be very open and very friendly to them. I gather this. And your method is meditation and prayer, if I understand it well.
Prabhupada: There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kirtana, a prayer. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama. So this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God, and Krsna is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Krsna. Hare: "O the energy of God, 'Krsna,' O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, maya. I think... Maya. So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render. Because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then you render service to maya. Therefore it is the prayer to God that "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Mayavadi philosophers, they sometimes say that "We are now in maya. As soon as we are out in maya, then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in maya or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life or real happiness. But when we give service to the maya, that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotofsky, the Indologist.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Did you talk with people there? Were you permitted, were you allowed to talk with the people in the streets and so on?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Cardinal Pignedoli: You were.
Prabhupada: No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government supresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; simply it is being suppressed, either by the so-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called maya. We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritamrta where it is said that nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya. It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Sravanadi-suddha-citte. One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began: That process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system. Paro dharmah. Parah means first-class. But a simply sentiment will not help. Therefore religion must be based on philosophy, and my spiritual master used to say this, that "Philosophy without religion is mental speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentimental." They should be combined. Philosophy and religion must be... Or religion must be based on philosophy. Then it is perfect. We cannot separate these two things. Simple philosophical speculation will not help, and simple sentiments, rituals, formalities, will not also. They should be combined. So this combination is here in the Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita.
Monsignor Verrozano: In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals?
Prabhupada: No, love for man... Let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma, they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah. Can you find out this?
sarva-yonisu kaunteya
sambhavanti (yah) murtayah
tasam mahad-yonir brahma
aham bija-pradah pita
 [Bg. 14.4]
There are different species of life, sarva-yoni. Yoni means species of life. And there are forms, different forms. But within that form... Yes, read it.
Nitai:
sarva-yonisu kaunteya
murtayah sambhavanti yah
tasam brahma mahad yonir
aham bija-pradah pita
 [Bg. 14.4]
"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."
Prabhupada: That's it. So from God's standpoint of view, we cannot take simply that simply to serve the human being is to serve God. Another point is that living entities, the service, according to Sanskrit conception, service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, mercy. There are two words. Seva, the Sanskrit word, seva, and daya. You know something of Sanskrit?
Monsignor Verrozano: Somewhat, yes.
Prabhupada: Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea. Just like in India they say, daridra-narayana. Some nation, that to give service to the human being, and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad-gita. If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gita, verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Monsignor Verrozano: What do you think about this...
Prabhupada: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. Animals cannot make [break] ...any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva-yonisu... Just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is not... If actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a...
Prabhupada: Lover of God.
Cardinal Pignedoli: To become lovers of God, friends to God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Cardinal Pignedoli: All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, or events, not of ideas, of events, of reality, do you think there are many these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today?
Prabhupada: Mostly...
Cardinal Pignedoli: Mostly. You think so.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Cardinal Pignedoli: And then you think that men of God are a minority.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Cardinal Pignedoli: This you admit. Well, and then I ask for a second question. Before I give to you an example. I have a hobby, as many men in the world, they have their own hobbies. My hobby is to, I mean...
Prabhupada: God has also some hobby.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling... I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose also -- I try to do this -- people who are unbelievers, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith, and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God... We are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments, where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know... Priests, Catholic priests, well, go to an area because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or Copenhagen where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not...
Prabhupada: For all.
Cardinal Pignedoli: For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present.
Prabhupada: No, we go everywhere.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Everywhere.
Prabhupada: Just like you go in the villages of Africa. They are almost aborigines, with their...
Cardinal Pignedoli: Local people. Local citizens.
Prabhupada: Yes. So our process is so nice, that is recommended process in this age -- the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, we dance.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Then anyone, even children, they join. Even the children, they join. Man, woman...
Cardinal Pignedoli: It is very similar to the Christian masses. We bring it everywhere.
Prabhupada: We have no such distinction. So to the mass of people, we chant this Hare Krsna mantra. But when there are learned scholars, elevated person, then we present about our philosophy. And we have got so many writings. Both ways: the mass and the class, or the scholars. We are prepared to meet everyone. Our mission is to make everyone, no distinction, that "This class should be given preference, and that should be neglected." No. We have got instrument to awaken everyone. By chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra, we can enthuse thousands and thousands of men to join us. And those who are advanced in philosophy and religious system, we have got these books. So we do not neglect anyone. We approach everyone.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, thank you for your explanations.
Prabhupada: And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese, everyone.
Monsignor Verrozano: And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known. I am just coming from Bangkok where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the (indistinct), and have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to (indistinct)?
Prabhupada: Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God.
Cardinal and Monsignor Verrozano: Yes.
Prabhupada: So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Theoretically yes, but practically, do you think they are atheistic, practically? Because...
Prabhupada: No, no. Our... Yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Krsna.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Also some of them, they believe in... They think Buddha is a god, and they are believers.
Prabhupada: Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find?
Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are, excuse it, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not (indistinct). But because we are few... I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan?
Prabhupada: Yes, we go.
Cardinal Pignedoli: This is more important because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although... I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why don't you choose...? This is my question. These areas where Japan for instance is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly... It's called... No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday. Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare, is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask, then you go to Japan?
Dhananjaya: Yes, we have a center in Tokyo.
Prabhupada: Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty-thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vrndavana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went... I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical... Or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead: That is first-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first... And besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found. Find out this verse,
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascid vetti mam tattvatah
 [Bg. 7.3]
"Out of many millions of persons," manusyanam sahasresu, "somebody is trying to make his life perfect." Others, they are simply trying to enjoy life like animals. So manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye, and yatatam api siddhanam: [Bg. 7.3] "And out of many millions of such persons who are trying to make his life perfect, hardly one can understand what is God." This is the statement. Read it.
Nitai:
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin mam vetti tattvatah
 [Bg. 7.3]
"Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavour for perfection. And of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth."
Prabhupada: Read the purport.
Nitai: There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gita are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jnana-yoga, dhyana-yoga, and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Krsna can only be known by persons who are in Krsna consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Krsna. Krsna is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramatma. The yogis and jnanis are confused in their attempts to understand Krsna, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Sripada Sankaracarya, has admitted in his Gita commentary that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Krsna as such, for it is very difficult to know Krsna, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman.
Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti or devotional service is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually the path of bhakti is not easy. The so-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Srila Rupa Gosvami writes in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu:
sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratra-vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate.
 [Brs. 1.2.101]
"Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, Puranas, Narada-pancaratra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."
It is not possible for the Brahman realized impersonalist or the Paramatma realized yogi to understand Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the son of mother Yasoda or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Krsna: "muhyanti yat surayah," "mam tu veda na kascana." "No one knows Me as I am," the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then "sa mahatma sudurlabhah." "Such a great soul is very rare." Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Krsna as He is (tattvatah), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Krsna, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Krsna is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said:
atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih
sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah
[Brs. 1.2.234]
"No one can understand Krsna as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service unto Him." (Padma Purana)
Prabhupada: So the position is, that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular... Because in truth hardly very few people understands what is God.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yeah, that's wonderful. We ought to see you in India sometimes for real again and...
Bhagavan: Do they have a copy of Bhagavad-gita?
Dhananjaya: I don't think you have this.
Cardinal Pignedoli: What is this?
Dhananjaya: If you like, you can take this.
Cardinal Pignedoli: I have, I have this.
Dhananjaya: You can have this.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, I have. Thank you.
Bhagavan: There are many copies of Bhagavad-gita, but the unusual happening with this version is until this was presented, there was no devotee...
Prabhupada: Professor Dimock has said very nicely.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, we have also many translations. Yes.
Prabhupada: You have not brought by the fruit?
Nitai: Yes, Satsvarupa Maharaja did.
Monsignor Verrozano: We have here one translation of the commentary of Professor Zehner(?) from Oxford.
Prabhupada: Here is my foreword by Professor Dimock.
Yogesvara: This is a professor from Chicago University who wrote the foreword to this edition. He makes an interesting comment.
Prabhupada: You read, read it.
Dhananjaya: Yes.
Prabhupada: Professor Dimock's.
Cardinal Pignedoli: It's very strange and famous. That's the gospel.
Prabhupada: Read it.
Dhananjaya: (reading) "Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view. And that is legitimate."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is legitimate.
Dhananjaya: "More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Krsna devotee interprets his own texts. It is a Vedic..."
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes.
Prabhupada: A Krsna devotee interpreting on Krsna, and a nondevotee interpreting on Krsna. There is far difference.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, yes, oh, yes.
Prabhupada: So mostly the editors are by nondevotee. So they cannot interpret.
Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. The same problem we have with our scriptures, because when the scriptures are interpreted by devotees, by believers, they are very faithful translated.
Prabhupada: That is because it is legitimate.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, it's very important.
Prabhupada: Read it again.
Cardinal Pignedoli: You are the best interpreter, yes, qualified interpreter.
Dhananjaya: "In this translation the western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Krsna devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. (reads rest of foreword of MacMillan edition of Bhagavad-gita As It Is)" This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. It will be a source also for unprofessionals, also to give true interpretation yes, by devotees.
Prabhupada: The trades manager of Messrs. MacMillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing.
Monsignor Verrozano: A great sign of interest.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and...
Prabhupada: Yes, kindly pray to God.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you for your kindness, for coming, and if sometimes you come to Rome, don't forget this. This is a very difficult place to find out. Now you know it. You have been here. With Monsignor Verrozano. That's nice. I will leave now for Africa, Bamako, Mali, for a meeting with Moslems. Bamako, be there for a few days, Bamako, Freetown, Bathurst, Conakry these cities of West Africa, French-speaking Africa.
Dhananjaya: Some of our devotees are going to Lagos.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Ah, Lagos. Ah yeah. You are going, also you?
Dhananjaya: No, not me. My godbrothers...
Cardinal Pignedoli: I have been there for three years, in Lagos, a big city. The majority are Moslems, sixty percent. And others are Christians or local religions. They are deeply religious people in Nigeria. Deeply religious. All believers, they say. Thank you. I am so happy. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome

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