Devotee (1): ...brain, then we have to make some
scientific solution, that to say God is acting, that is not acting, that is not
practical. We must make some solution, like irrigation or...
Pusta Krsna: God helps those who help themselves.
Prabhupada: No, no, don't bring slogans now. Now
answer this question.
Pusta Krsna: People are falsely thinking themselves to
be independent of God.
Prabhupada: No, what is his question, try to
understand first of all. The question is intelligent.
Hari-sauri: Actually, it's not a fact that by relying
on science one can solve one's problems when you are dealing with...
Prabhupada: No, what they have solved? What they have
solved first of all.
Hari-sauri: They haven't solved anything.
Prabhupada: Then?
Pusta Krsna: It's just like, say here's a field, and
it's full of wood, so a farmer comes and he cuts down the trees and then he
plants grain, and then it comes up as wheat. So he'll say, "Well, God did
not do it; I did it." So his proposal is that under such circumstances how
is the idea of God practical?
Prabhupada: So then practical is if God would not have
given you this land, then where is scheme of tilling it? Can you till in the
sky, in the air? Who has given you the land, hmm? You are very practical, but where
you get the...? Can you manufacture this land? Can you? Then God comes,
immediately. Where you get this water? Can you manufacture water? Where you get
this air? Can you manufacture? Where you get this fire? Everything, there is
God.
Pusta Krsna: But then he may say, "But what is
the use, because someone who is atheist and someone who is God conscious,
sometimes it is found that the atheist..."
Prabhupada: The atheist will suffer. Just like anyone
who is outlaw, does not believe in the government's law, he'll suffer. If
somebody says, "I don't care for government laws," then he'll suffer.
Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He's a rascal. He may say
so, like madman, that "I don't care for government and government laws,"
but naturally he'll be punished. He'll be put into jail and suffer. That he
cannot check. He may, with empty words, he can say "I don't care for
government," but does it mean that he can escape the government laws? That
is not possible. Government will see that "Here is a lunatic rascal. Put
him into the jail," that's all. Is it not? Is it not practical?
Devotee (1): He can say also that "What is the
difference? You are also..., you have to farm..."
Prabhupada: That is another thing, you and me, but we
are talking of government laws. Whether you'll be punished, I'll be punished,
that is different thing. Anyone will be punished. There is no question,
"I" and "you." It is not that I am very favorite and you
are not favorite. Anyone who will violate the government's laws will be
punished. Who can deny it? It is not the question of "I" and
"you." Anyone. How you can become independent of the laws? That is
not possible. You have to accept God.
Pusta Krsna: Christians say that God is very merciful.
Prabhupada: That mercy depends on Him. You cannot
dictate Him. If I am merciful, that will depend on me, whether I can show you
mercy or I can condemn you. That is, depends on me. Simply on the basis of
"God is merciful," I can do all unlawful things, this is not
practical proposal. Merciful means it depends on me. Whether I shall show mercy
or I shall be very strong and strict, that is my will, freedom. I may show you
mercy, I may not show. You cannot force me, that "You must become
merciful." That is not right. God is really merciful. Otherwise, how He's
supplying this... In the morning if a fog, so God mercifully has asked sun,
"Now give them some sunlight." So we are enjoying. He is merciful.
When there is sunshine you see the sinful man and the pious man, both enjoy.
That is His mercy. When he bestows His mercy, it is for all of them, either you
are sinner or you are pious. That is God's mercy. Just like the cloud when it
pours water, it does not make any discrimination. On the sea, there is also
rainfall; on the rocks also, there is rainfall, where there is no necessity of
rain. Therefore where is necessity of rainfall on rock? What is the use? There
is no use. It is simply waste. So God also wastes: "All right, you take.
You don't require; you also take." In the ocean there is no need of water,
but when... The cloud pours water on the ocean also. Only on the land we can
utilize, but God is so merciful, exactly like the raincloud, He is so merciful,
where there is no necessity they are also getting rain, "Take rain."
That is merciful. Without any discrimination, whether you want or not want,
"Take it." That is mercy. You can show your mercy when there is
scarcity water -- you can bring some tanks of water from other places and put
here -- but how long you'll do it? But when the God is merciful, He'll pour
rain so in large quantity that everyone will benefit. That is God's greatness.
You'll have to spend so much money, labor, to bring a few buckets of water from
other place. Beyond that, you cannot do anything. But God is so powerful, so
great, that within a twinkling of, within a few minutes only, immediately He
can overcast with cloud and overflood the whole tract of land. That is God's
greatness. You have to understand God's greatness in that way. If the sinful,
number of sinful men are great, God immediately starts one war, and within few
years, all finished. Russia finished, America finished, everyone. That is
greatness of God. In this way try to understand how God is great in every
activity. In mercy He's great, in cruelty He's great. If He wants to show
cruelty, He's the greatest cruel. No discrimination, all finished. Never mind
women, children or cats, dogs -- all finished. That is cruelty, greatness of
cruelty. Then there is greatness of mercy. So that is greatness. So you study, in
God, the greatness, how great He is. At night you have so many lights for
illuminate your city, home, and so many electric powerhouse going on, and God
is so great that one sun-immediately, all light. There is no need of
powerhouse, there is no need of matches, there is no need of this light, that
light. Take sunlight. That is His greatness. And within a second. When night is
going on, we have seen.
Hari-sauri: On the airplane.
Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately sun comes out, all
darkness gone. That is His greatness. Do that like that. Then you compete with
God. Can you do it? Then how can you avoid God? (laughs). Rascals only, mudha,
naradhama. They cannot appreciate the greatness of God. Mudha. They're asses.
Anyone who does not appreciate the greatness of God, they're asses, mudha. As
good as the ass. And lowest of the mankind, naradhama. And their so-called
scientific knowledge, useless. If by so-called scientific knowledge they want
to defy God, then they are mudha naradhama, useless.
Pusta Krsna: Let's say a country takes full advantage
of this slogan, "In God We Trust."
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Pusta Krsna: Let's say a country takes full advantage
of this slogan.
Prabhupada: That is my question. Where is that full
advantage? They are remaining in the darkness. Why do you trust, first of all.
Why do you trust? So many questions there are. Why you are prepared to trust in
God? If I ask, you must answer. If you cannot answer, then you are ass. It is
good, even without knowing, but when the slogan comes from the government side,
there must be full knowledge. Otherwise, the government is as good as common
man. The government should be full of intelligent men. Why vote is there? You
select an intelligent man. Otherwise, anyone can go. Cats and dogs, they also
can go. Why the voting system? That you select some intelligent man. So if you
cannot answer your slogan, then you are not intelligent, you are unfit.
Pusta Krsna: They've made the platform that the man
himself can solve all the problems.
Prabhupada: Then why do you trust in God? Don't trust
in God, like the Communists say, "We don't trust in God. We shall do it
ourselves."
Kuladri: But the forefathers who made up our slogan
"In God We Trust," they were very unintelligent, they were very
backwards.
Prabhupada: But you are intelligent. Why you are
putting the forefather's words? You avoid it. That means you are cheating
people. You do not believe in, but you still write it. That means cheating. Why
do you write such things in which you do not believe? That means cheating. Hmm?
What do you think? If you write something which you do not believe in, are you
not cheating? That means cheating. You take word, you are giving a piece of
paper, and it is written there, "one thousand dollars." That means
you are cheating, in the name of God, he will accept you, that's all. If you
say, "No, I don't want paper. Give me gold dollar," then you are
finished. Your currency will be finished. Immediately there will be revolution,
that "The government is cheating us." Actually it is cheating. What
is the proof, value, of this paper, little paper? Simply "I promise to
pay, governor and this..." But it is on trust only: "Yes, government
will pay me." They'll never pay, but so long the government goes on, it
will go on, that's all, cheating will go on. And as soon government fails, you
throw in the street, no one will care for it. It has been practically proved in
the last war, in Germany. There was scarcity of food, and those who had bunch
of currency notes, they went for one piece of bread, so many thousand marks,
"Give me." Nobody supplied. So the paper has no value, but if we
believe, it has value, that's all. Otherwise what is the meaning of this paper,
one thousand dollars? So it is a kind of cheating, "We trust in God; we are
very good men. You trust in me."
Pusta Krsna: How can this practically be applied to
American society, this idea of trusting God? How would things change?
Prabhupada: By this Krsna conscious movement's
propaganda. That is not for America -- for everyone.
Kirtanananda: How can you trust God if you don't know
anything about Him? First you have to know something about God before you can
trust Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is sense. If you do not know
about somebody and you trust him, what is this? Yes.
Raksana: Through the distribution of your books,
through the...
Prabhupada: That is distribution of knowledge. Our
distribution of books means distribution of knowledge to these rascals, lowest
of the mankind, bewildered. This is distribution of knowledge. Who was talking
about that there is secretly, there is, our books are being read?
Pusta Krsna: That was in East Germany.
Hari-sauri: Harikesa.
Pusta Krsna: That was in East Germany. They have
lists, and they pass Prabhupada's books around. One person has it for one night
or three nights, like this, and it keeps going around, because they are very
much in want of this. They can't get enough.
Prabhupada: Just see how forcefully they are being
kept into ignorance, and we want to give knowledge, they don't, won't allow.
This is government. So anyway, it is good news that our books are being read in
that way. That means people are very eager, but they are being suppressed by
the so-called government. What is the wrong there, that they cannot read these
books publicly, because there is God? What is the wrong? When I was in Moscow
airport, as soon as they found Bhagavad-gita, they called police, the customs
checking. The foolish man was kind enough, he said, "Not serious offense.
Don't send him in the concentration camp." They can do. In Russia, even if
you are foreigner, they can immediately send you to the concen..., without any
knowledge, they don't care for your embassy or your... Such a rascal state,
there is no civilized method. They send their own men, such an important man
like that Kruschev. He was sent into oblivion; nobody knows where he is. Such a
rascal government. Very difficult to live in. People are... Simply under
terrorism the government is going on. In that sense your American government is
so nice. Everyone has got the liberty. What is that nonsense
government-terrorism.
Kuladri: But even in our government the President
Kennedy was killed and his brother was killed.
Prabhupada: That..., in politics, that is going on.
Our Bhagavad-gita begins on the killing ground. Battle of Kuruksetra.
Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1]. Kuruksetra was a battlefield, but it is
still dharma-ksetre. Why don't you see that? Now the first word is
dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. Yuyutsavah means
fighting. So why they have gone to the dharma-ksetre for fighting? So killing,
fighting, is not always irreligious. It is religious. Otherwise, why should go
to dharma-ksetre?
Pusta Krsna: Someone may say, though, "How the
fighting is religious? After all, it is a family feud."
Prabhupada: That is your ignorance. But the beginning
is dharma-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. Yuyutsavah means fighting. Two
parties, they, actually, the two parties... Pandavas mamakah caiva kim
akurvata. Every word is significant. Fighting can be executed even in
dharma-ksetre. That they cannot understand. Gandhi misunderstood. If it is
dharma-ksetre, how there can be fighting? He wanted to prove nonviolence
artificially. How it is possible? Krsna is instigating him to fight, and how
can you make it nonviolent? That is artificial. And if you want to explain
something artificially, how long you'll do it, it will be failure. So Gandhi's
philosophy of nonviolence and reading of Bhagavad-gita went with him. Nobody is
interested in that kind of explanation. And we are explaining Bhagavad-gita as
it is, it is increasing. It is increasing. There is no artificial way.
Devotee (2): What hope is there for Krsna
consciousness in these countries like Russia and China, where they are so rascal
they...
Prabhupada: Everyone will be benefited. Simply you
have to preach. You have to preach in the same way that where there is no
necessity, there also the preaching will go on. You have to become like cloud.
Therefore you sing every day, samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-
Devotee (3): The so-called intelligent people in this
country, like the professors in universities, they sometimes argue that the
progressive value of life is to search for knowledge, the quest of knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes, here is the ultimate knowledge, what
is God. You do not know. You are still professing as professor, as learned
scholar, but you do not know what is God. Also you write, "In God We
Trust." What is this nonsense? Where is your professorship? You explain
God. Suppose I am a layman. I am asking "Why you have written in the bill?
Please let me know what is God." Do you know? Then where is your
knowledge?
Devotee (3): But they say they are looking for it.
Prabhupada: That means you are not in knowledge, and
still you are a professor. You become a student like me. Why you are occupying
the post of a professor? That means you are cheating. You are calling yourself
as professor, the teacher, and you do not know? Give up this post; come to my
position.
Pusta Krsna: Immediately revolution.
Prabhupada: Yes. Talk like sensible man. Don't cheat
others, that you have no knowledge and still you say "I am
professor." Why you are cheating people?
Kirtanananda: They say that real knowledge is to know
that there is no such thing as absolute knowledge but simply this process of
searching for knowledge.
Prabhupada: No. That is ignorance. As knowledge you
are receiving... Just like I've come to you, I'm a layman, I've come to you for
knowledge. Unfortunately, you have not received knowledge from that source.
Therefore you are useless. I cannot have knowledge from you. Knowledge means to
take it from higher personality. That is knowledge. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum
evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Knowledge means you have to receive it from a
superior person. Otherwise, there is no knowledge.
Pusta Krsna: So, for example, if one is learning how
to count or how to read...
Prabhupada: Yes, he has to learn it from the teacher.
Two plus two equal to four. One, two, three, four, like that.
Pusta Krsna: But actually one can understand the
Absolute Truth without such knowledge.
Prabhupada: There is no such man. It is a nonsense,
another non...
Pusta Krsna: Without being able to count?
Prabhupada: Nobody can count unless he learns it from
the teacher.
Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes, but...
Prabhupada: So therefore for knowledge, you have to go
to a proficient man or person, that is knowledge. Why do you go to a school and
college? Be in knowledge at home. If you want to steal even, you have to learn
it from a professional thief, how to cheat, how to steal. That is also another
kind of knowledge. You cannot steal unless you become expert by learning how to
steal from an expert thief. So knowledge means you have to receive it from
higher authority. That is knowledge.
Kuladri: What if one has material desire? How does he
gain the desire for spiritual knowledge?
Prabhupada: That means you are cats and dogs. The dog
has no inquisitiveness. Therefore you are no better than the dog. The dog never
comes to a spiritual master, "Give me some knowledge." Therefore you
are as good as the dog. That is your qualification.
Pusta Krsna: So all different aspects of material
knowledge...
Prabhupada: You have to learn from a superior person.
Pusta Krsna: But now there is distinction between two
types of knowledge. If knowledge means understanding...
Prabhupada: No, no. Any knowledge, if you want to get
it, you must receive it from a superior person. That is the law. That I already
explained. If you want to steal, if you want to become a thief, you have to
learn it from an expert thief. So any knowledge. Knowledge means you have to
learn it from a superior person. And what to speak of the knowledge of God.
That is the ultimate knowledge. Yesterday we were speaking that Kirtanananda
Maharaja learned how to make samosas. Now that knowledge is distributed. So
every knowledge, you have to learn it from an expert. That is called guru. Guru
means expert. Heavy. Who's knowledge is heavier than your scanty knowledge. You
have to learn knowledge. Guru means heavy. Therefore Vedic injunction is
tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You must. Abhigacchet,
this word is used when the sense is "must." Not optional, that I may
go or I may not go. No, you must. This is Vedic injunction.
Devotee (2): We can see practically everyone
understands that if they want to be a chemist, they study under another
chemist, or a doctor goes to study from some doctor. Why they don't approach a
spiritual master for religious knowledge? Why do they think they can do it by
themselves?
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness.
Kirtanananda: That idea has been encouraged by
rascals.
Prabhupada: Just like if you want a son, you must have
a wife. If one says "No, without wife, I'll get a son," this is
nonsense. Is it possible?
Kuladri: But Srila Prabhupada, without any desire we
have been given the heaviest guru. How is that possible?
Prabhupada: Hmm? Without any desire?
Kuladri : Without our knowing about Krsna, having any
desire to become Krsna conscious, still we have been given the knowledge.
Prabhupada: I don't follow.
Pusta Krsna: He's saying that by Krsna's mercy we're
here, we've taken.
Prabhupada: Hmm. No. Anyone who is Krsna conscious, it
is the duty to distribute it. It is his duty. You may... When I came here, I
never came here because American boys or people wanted me. They did not feel
any need of my presence. But I came here, because it is my duty. My Guru
Maharaja ordered me. So one may think there is need or no need -- it is the
duty of Krsna conscious persons to spread it. Just like the example I have
already given. The cloud..., the mountain does not want rain, the sea does not
want, but the cloud throws water everywhere.
Devotee (3): If no one was thinking that they needed
your presence, then how is it some have come and some have not come? What is
the difference?
Prabhupada: Difference is it is Krsna's desire. He
wants that "Don't remain like cats and dogs. Be intelligent and come back
to Me." Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg.
18.66]. So it is the duty of a devotee of Krsna to spread this knowledge so that
they may take to Krsna. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand, but those
who are two-legged cats and dogs, (laughs) they can understand. That is the
advantage, because they have got two legs. So long they had four legs
(laughing) they could not understand. So here is a chance, two-legged, so give
them some opportunity. That's all. (long pause) You grow bitter melon also
here?
Kirtanananda: We tried to this spring to grow it, but
we can't get the seed to sprout.
Prabhupada: You can get it from Mayapura?
Kirtanananda: We got seed, but it won't sprout.
Prabhupada: Oh, due to the climate.
Kirtanananda: We don't know. It is a very hard seed.
Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, perhaps the material
scientists could help us make the seed sprout.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Devotee (4): I was thinking earlier how a farmer can
put the seed in the ground, but he cannot actually make the seed grow if it is
not the will of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. The situation is not favorable. That
is the proof that everything is a living entity. If you put the seed... The
seed is not the tree, but when you put the seed on the ground, if the situation
is favorable, the particular living entity who has to take the form of that
tree, he comes, and then it grows. That is the proof. Just like sex. It is not
the secretion of the man and the woman. It creates a situation so that the soul
may come and live there, and then there is pregnancy. It is not the matter.
This is the proof.
Pusta Krsna: Does that mean to some extent that the
soul is dependent on a material condition?
Prabhupada: Yes. Purusah prakrti-stho hi [Bg. 13.22].
Find out this verse, purusah prakrti-stho hi.
Hari-sauri: Just like when the body is no good, the
soul has to leave.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the proof there is soul.
Pusta Krsna:
purusah prakrti-stho hi
bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
karanam guna-sango-sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu
[Bg. 13.22]
"The living entity in material nature thus
follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to
his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil
amongst various species."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pusta Krsna: Purport. "This verse is very
important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one
body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that..."
Prabhupada: This is transmigration. As soon as the
situation... He is to accept a dog's body. Now a dog is having sex, and the
mixture of the two secretions creates a favorable situation, and the living
entity is there, and he gets a dog's body. This is the truth. He is destined to
get a dog's body. So he's taking the opportunity that "Here is a
suitable... " Nature is bringing him. If here it is refused, then he'll go
to another place. Therefore contraceptive method is sinful, going against the
law of... The situation is created for getting the body by another living
entity, but he is transgressing. Then he'll be punished. So many subtle things
are there. What do they know? Read it.
Pusta Krsna: "It is explained in the Second
Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just
as one changes dress."
Prabhupada: This is transmigrating. He's put into this
circumstances, so he gets this body. [break] ...in our society, he's living in
a room, but if he has got some difficulty, he says... Then the authority gives
him another room, "All right, you go there." This is transmigration.
He must get a place according to his capacity, according to his quality. Go on
reading.
Pusta Krsna: "This change of dress is due to his
attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false
manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due
to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such..."
Prabhupada: If he wants to remain in this material
world, creates a situation and continues his desire, then he has to take... And
when he understands that "To live in this material condition is very
troublesome. Why shall I live here?" then he becomes Krsna conscious and
he goes back to home, back to... And so long he desires, "No, why not? If
I remain in this situation, I'll be happy," then he'll have to get a body.
Nature will give him all chances: "Get this body." If one is very
pleased to take raw flesh, "All right, why artificially? Take this body,
tiger." That's all. Nature is... God is so kind. Before we were talking of
God's mercifulness, so if you are thinking that it is very happy life to eat,
without any discrimination, anything, so immediately God orders nature, "You
give him body of a pig. He can eat anything, even up to stool. Give him this
body." Yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. This yantra, this vehicle, this
body, is given to him: "Yes, now you can eat anything, up to stool."
And he is very pleased. He wanted it. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg.
15.15]. He does not hesitate or feel any inconvenience. God is there, even
within the heart of the pig, "My dear pig, you wanted a body like this.
You have now got it, now eat, here is stool. You eat." And he enjoys. So the
living entity within this material world, he wanted to enjoy, "I am the
monarch of all I survey." So God gives him all facility: "Whatever
you want, you do." Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad yoni-janmasu. He
wanted it, therefore he gets different types of body. That is transmigration.
But still He comes and teaches, "Rascal, why you are suffering in this
way? Give up this plan; surrender to Me immediately." But he is making
plan only. Just like in your country, there is everything opulent. The hippies
are making plan, "We shall be happy in this way." What can be done?
Everyone has got little independence. Let him do. So, so long we shall make
plan to enjoy this material world, God will give us all facility, "All
right, enjoy." Not enjoy, suffer. But because He is compassionate, kind,
merciful, still He comes and begs, "You rascal, why you are making plan?
Give up this. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. Then you'll be
happy." So if anyone is intelligent, he takes God's direct instruction and
he becomes happy. Otherwise, go on making plan. He'll give you facility. That
is God's kindness. They are enjoying. The birds of the same feather flock
together. They keep together, they fly together. They enjoy, they think it is
enjoying. Go on.
Pusta Krsna: "Due to his desire to lord it over
material nature he is put into such undesirable circumstances."
Prabhupada: This is not wanted. He is spirit. He has
nothing to do with this material world, but he wanted it. Or the real thing is
that he wanted to enjoy by becoming the master. He is servant... Sometimes
servants desire it that "Why I become servant? Why not master?" That
is natural. But the natural position is he is servant. If he remains servant of
Krsna, then he's happy always. But because he desired to become master, so he
cannot become master in the spiritual world, because in the spiritual world the
master is one. So he is given the chance, "All right, go to the material
world and become a master." But that is a falldown. So he's trying
struggle for existence, and everyone is trying to become master. Even one is in
this spiritual knowledge that "I am spirit soul," still he's trying
to become master. That is Mayavada. They have understood that "I am not
this body, aham brahmasmi, but I am the supreme Brahman." The same disease
is there -- master. Therefore they are condemned, aruhya krcchrena param padam
tatah [SB 10.2.32]. Because the mentality to remain master is continuing, even
they are in the Brahman, merge into the Brahman, the mastership mentality is
there; therefore he falls down again. Because mastership exhibition can be done
in this material world. So many Mayavadi sannyasis, they give up, "This
world is false," and they merge, so-called merge, but the mastership
mentality is there. But in the void, simply spiritual light, he cannot do any
mastership; therefore again falls down in this false world, and he wants to be
by becoming a leader of hospital, and school, college, a Christian missionary.
And our Vivekananda also imitated that. So this, this is the material disease.
He is actually servant, but he wants to become master. That is the defect. So
he has to give up this mentality, mastership, then he'll be making real
progress. Saraopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam, that "I am not master,
I am servant." When he's fixed up on this platform, then he's liberated.
Or in other words, when he feels pleasure, transcendental pleasure, remaining
the servant, that is liberation. But as soon as he continues the mentality that
"I want to be master," then he's in the maya. That mentality he has
to give up. Or he has to understand that "I'm not master; I am
servant." That is liberation. What is? Go on.
Pusta Krsna: "Under the influence of material
desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod."
Prabhupada: This is material desire, to try to become
master. This is the root cause of material life. Go on.
Pusta Krsna: "Under the influence of material
desire the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes
as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug.
This is going on. And in all circumstances the living entity thinks himself to
be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the..."
Prabhupada: Even in the stool, the worms in the stool,
he's also thinking "I have got so much stool to eat." This same
mastership. "I am the monarch of all I survey. I have got so much
stool." And you just take the worm from the stool, put it here: "No,
no, no, here is my enjoyment." This mastership mentality is there in
Brahma, and the mastership mentality is there in the worm of the stool. This
mentality you have to give up. Then you become liberated. That is liberation.
The bondage is that mastership mentality. He's servant, but he's thinking
falsely that he's master. Just like your President Nixon. He thought that
"Now I have become master of America, I'm president." He forgot that
he's servant. As soon as the people wanted, dragged him down. That he forgot,
that "I'm servant of the people." So everyone is servant, but falsely
thinking "I'm master." That is material disease. The best thing is
that if I have to remain servant, why not become servant of Krsna? That's all.
That is perfection. That is perfect life. Even by becoming a false master of
the whole American country, I was not happy, I am now dragged down as a common
man, Mr. Nixon, then what is the use of becoming master? It is all false. Let
me become servant of Krsna; then it is perfect. Instead of becoming a false
master of the American country, let me be a real servant of Krsna. That is
liberty, liberated. Because any stage of my life, to become master is false.
That is not possible. He has to be convinced that he cannot be master. Your
constitution is to remain servant. If you prefer to remain servant of a big
populace in America... But you are servant; don't think you are master. That is
sane. And soon as you commit mistake as master, immediately he's in trouble. Is
it not? That's it. You give up this false notion that "I am master."
Then your all welfare is there. We teach that ask a Godbrother,
"Prabhu." Don't become master, but become servant. Prabhu means
"my lord." So everyone, if you address each other "prabhu,"
that mastership mentality will be less. If you remember that "I am not
master. I am servant." Then?
Pusta Krsna: "How he is put into such different
bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of
nature. One has to..."
Prabhupada: Just like to eat anything and everything.
It is different association. You go to the restaurant, you eat the intestine of
pig. I've seen it. Is that anything eatable? But you have learned it on account
of association. Karanam guna-sangos 'sya. And if he remains with the Krsna
conscious, he eats kachoris, samosa, prepared by Kirtanananda Maharaja.
(laughter) It is due to association. By bad association he'll have to eat up to
the stool. Then?
Pusta Krsna: "One has to rise therefore above the
three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. This
is called Krsna consciousness. Unless one is situated in Krsna consciousness,
his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another
because he has material desire since time immemorial, but he has to change that
conception."
Prabhupada: That is material desire, how to become
master. From different types, he's trying to become master. Just like in the
morning the dogs are barking. He's also master, thinking "Why you are
coming here?" Whatever little power he's got, he's asserting his mastership:
"Don't come here." The same mentality. Then?
Pusta Krsna: "The best change can be effected
only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is
here."
Prabhupada: This is the authoritative source, that you
are not master, you are servant. Cultivate this knowledge. Don't try to become
a master, falsely. That will never be successful. Remain servant of Krsna,
you'll be happy. That is the business of spiritual master. He gives the right
information; therefore he is respected so much, because he does not cheat.
"You can become master, even God you can become" -- this is cheating.
The real spiritual master says that "You can never become master. You are
always servant." And therefore he's worshiped. He gives the right
information. Therefore he is honored so, because he does not cheat. The
so-called spiritual master is cheating, that "You take this mantra and
give me some money and you become God." This cheating is going on.
Spiritual master is to be worshiped. Why? Because he does not cheat. He gives
the right information. That is his credit. Gurusu nara-mati. Therefore one
should not take guru as ordinary human being. Ordinary human being, he'll cheat
you, or he'll give some information, he's cheating. But a guru, real guru,
he'll not cheat you. Therefore he should be worshiped as good... God does not
cheat you. Therefore guru should not be taken as ordinary human being. Gurusu
nara-mati. "I see that he is like ordinary man. His son is calling him
'father.' His wife is..." That's all right, but because he's giving the
right information, he is not ordinary human being. Therefore he should be
worshiped as good as God. He does not cheat. That is the test of guru. He'll
never say that "You give me some bribe and you'll become God by
meditation, transcendental." He'll never say that. This is cheating. Why
father is respected? Because he never cheats the son. Father is also a man,
another man. Why father is...? Because he's always wishing welfare of the son,
he does not cheat, sincerely teaches him the reality. Then?
Pusta Krsna: "Arjuna is hearing the science of
God from Krsna. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will
lose his long-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and
proportionately as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy
spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in
association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately
relishes his eternal, blissful life."
Prabhupada: All right.
Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Garden Conversation
-- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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