Prabhupada: How long you have come
here in Iran?Ambassador: Nice to see you again. Not that I have felt that
far away.Prabhupada: You are looking little reduced than before, in
health.Ambassador: Oh, perhaps slightly older.Prabhupada: You are not as
old as I am. What is your age?Ambassador: I am fifty-six.Prabhupada: Oh,
you are just like my child. My first child was born 1921. What is your birth
date?Ambassador: That was three years earlier. So there you
are.Prabhupada: 1918? In that year I was married. I was student at that
time. I was student, 1900 up to '20. Then I joined Gandhi's noncooperation
movement and gave up my education. His points were to give up English education,
English court, English-manufactured goods, in this way.Ambassador: How did
you feel about Gandhiji spiritually?Prabhupada: He was a good gentleman,
that's all. He had no spiritual asset.Ambassador: That's what I wondered. I
never met him. I don't know. But he said himself, "I may be a saint among
politicians, but I'm a politician among saints." (laughs)Prabhupada: He said
or the governor said? Anyway, it is... Mr. Casey from Australia -- he was
governor of Bengal -- he said, I think, that thing. His study was like that. He
was a politician, that's all.Ambassador: But God uses whatever material is
there and He used him.Prabhupada: No, it was God's desire. You see? Without
His desire, otherwise how such a vast British power could be driven away by the
noncooperation movement? Of course, it was very nicely planned because the
Britishers were ruling over India by the cooperation of the
Indian.Ambassador: Yes.Prabhupada: So when that cooperation was
withdrawn, naturally they could not... They were trying to the last point, but
when the Subhas Bose's organization, INA... You have studied that Indian
history. Yes. INA. Indian National Army. So this National Army was formed by
Subhas Candra Bose outside India with the cooperation of Hitler and Tojo. He's
formed that, what is called, Indian government outside India, the INA, the
soldiers... The INA soldiers means all the soldiers that were arrested in the
battlefield, they were given to Subhas Candra Bose, either by the Japanese or by
the Germans. So the soldiers took this opportunity; they voluntarily surrendered
to the enemy. So when the Britishers understood that the soldiers, Indian
soldiers, are now noncooperating, then they decided, "No, no more. It is not
possible." So they voluntarily withdrew, that Sir Sirpiting(?) Lawrence, the
secretary of state for India. Then they voluntarily settled up. And they settled
up means the last parting kick was partition-Pakistan and India. And they
partitioned in such a way that these two people will fight everlong. That is
going on. They are very good politicians. So after all, it is all... There is a
verse in the Bhagavad-gita:
sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto
mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam
vedanta-vid vedanta-krd ca aham
[Bg. 15.15]
Krsna said that "I am in everyone's
heart." Sarvasya. Sarvasya ca aham hrdi. Hrdi means the heart. Sannivistah: "I
am there." So He is witnessing everything. So Britishers would have been... They
were accepted by the Indians very nicely. People liked, because after the
Mohammedan period, when the Britishers came, they did something which was very,
very nice for the Indians, and the Indians, they liked them very much. Later on,
they became too much greedy. For their own men they wanted to sacrifice
everything Indian. So that Jalianwala-bagh. Then the Gandhi came and took this
vow that "The Britishers must go, quit India." So Britishers got a very good
opportunity for world unity under British Empire. But their only policy was that
to exploit others and enrich London. That was their bad policy, yes. They should
have ruled for the benefit of the people. Then British rule was very
nice.Ambassador: If they hadn't had such a guilty conscience
themselves...Prabhupada: Yes.Ambassador: ...they wouldn't have left
easily.Prabhupada: Yes. No, there was no need. Every country requires good
government. So if somebody gives good government and keeps the people nice,
happy, and people hasn't got any interest that the... Now they have made like
that. Formerly, at least in India, they didn't care whether it is being ruled by
the Mohammedans or by the Englishmen or foreign... They wanted peaceful life,
that's all. So the Mohammedans, they made their home in India, the Moguls. They
were not exploiting India and taking the money outside. Although the Moguls were
very luxurious, but they were spending money in India, India's money in India.
And, of course, they accuse, the Mohammedan government was very bad. But I think
if it was so bad, how they could rule over India for eight hundred years? And in
those days Indians were in their own culture. They did not lose their culture,
Hindu culture. The Britishers peacefully killed the Hindu culture, Vedic
culture, yes.Ambassador: I saw where they killed it much more effectively,
and that was in Ceylon.Prabhupada: Ceylon, oh.Ambassador: India's too
big to kill, so it lived. But Ceylon was practically finished. There is nothing
of its own left. They had to reinvent it after they got rid of the
British.Prabhupada: Yes.Ambassador: They'd lost their dance. They'd lost
their... Everything really national had gone.Prabhupada: That was
not...Ambassador: Even Buddhism had gone. It was revived by
foreigners.Prabhupada: Oh, Dutch. Dutch people, there were.Ambassador:
Germans especially. But now may I ask you while I have the chance? You have had
so much to do with bringing the dharma to the West. What is your idea? What is
your mission? It seems to me, in many ways there is a transfer of the essential
spirit going West, because the interest is there.Prabhupada:
Yes.Ambassador: And what is left in the East is so often just the
materialism imitated from the West among many young people now.Prabhupada:
Where, in the East? Yes.Ambassador: In the East. So there's been a crossover
taking place.Prabhupada: Hm, yes.Ambassador: Do you see it like
that?Prabhupada: Oh, yes. In Western countries they are now fed up with this
materialistic way of life. And I think it will very soon collapse, the Western
way of life. And naturally the next enquiry is spiritual.Ambassador: Yes,
it's already beginning.Prabhupada: Yes. Athato brahma jijnasa. The material
life means animal life.Ambassador: Yes.Prabhupada: So when the animal
comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined
at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have
come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But
we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the
fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw
one crocodile. One or two... two, three?Paramahamsa: Two or
three.Prabhupada: In where?Paramahamsa: Caracas.Prabhupada: Caracas,
yes. So one of the crocodile was on the land, and two were in the water. So in
the water they were very living, alive. But in the land it was like
dead.Ambassador: I had two crocodiles in my bath in Delhi for a
month.Prabhupada: Oh, accha. You like them very much?Ambassador: Given
by the chief minister of Rajastan, and I had to get them to
Canada.Prabhupada: Yes.Ambassador: I never managed to love them. I can
love most things, but not crocodiles.Prabhupada: No, they are also God's
creature, but covered by the body. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said,
panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. Those who are spiritually advanced, they see
equally because they know that within the body the spirit soul is there. The
spirit soul is part and parcel of God. He is encaged somehow or other in a
particular type of body. So a devotee of God is very kind to everyone.
Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na ka..., samah sarvesu bhutesu [Bg. 18.54].
Samah sarvesu..., mad-bhakti labhate param. That is the stage of making advance
in devotional life -- equality. That equality is possible when we are on the
platform of spiritual understanding. Otherwise not possible. The United Nation
will never be able to unite the nation. That is not possible.Ambassador: Of
course.Prabhupada: Not possible. If they unite, if they try to unite on
Krsna consciousness, then it is possible. Otherwise not possible. But we are all
part and parcel of God. Accidentally, or somehow or other, we are now all
differently dressed although we are one. They have to come to this
understanding. Upadhi, designation. Now just like you are Canadian; I am Indian.
Then I was just... In the noon I was thinking about the, what is called, goo
goo, dodo? Do? The bird? Do? What is called? There is one class of bird,
do?Atreya Rsi: Doves, doves.Prabhupada: So there are doves, there are
pigeons, there are sparrows, there are crows. Now Iran, the same doves, same...
Why they are not called "Iranian sparrow"? Why they are called only
sparrow?Ambassador: (chuckles) It's only people.Prabhupada: So simply we
have designated, "Iranian," "Indian," and "Canadian," "German," this, that. So
we have to give up this designation. Then there will be unity. Otherwise not.
But they are very much proud of this designation. Therefore bhakti means
sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], when one is completely free from
designation. The designation is material. It has nothing to do with spiritual
life. And the whole world is being ruled by designation. "I am Indian," "I am
American," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that." Aham mameti [SB 5.5.8], this
is.Ambassador: There is a hierarchy of consciousness, of course. But it's
not...Prabhupada: So that consciousness should be without designation. If I
try to develop my consciousness with designation, it will not be effective. It
will not be effective at least in the matter of advancing spiritual
consciousness. That we have to give up. Now in our Krsna consciousness movement
we have got men from all parts of the world, but they are not thinking in terms
of their original national designation. They are not thinking. They do not think
that they are American or they are Indian or Canadian or African or Hindu,
brahmana, ksatriya, vai..., nothing of the sort.Ambassador: Of course, there
can be ambition that is essentially ego attached to an idea of achieving
consciousness also.Prabhupada: That consciousness will not help him. That
will rather check him.Ambassador: Yes, exactly.Prabhupada: Because in
the Bhagavad-gita it is said, yam yam vapi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram
[Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, if I die with designation, then I will have to
accept again the body. So the mind is the criterion, contamination. We get
different types of body on account of mind being contaminated.Ambassador:
Contaminated.Prabhupada: Yes. Just like if you contaminate some disease,
then you must develop that disease. Similarly, if your mind is contaminated with
some material designation, then you have to accept similar body, by nature's
way. Karanam guna-sango 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. Because the mind associated with a
particular type of the modes of material nature, he got this body. There are
three qualities: sattva-guna, raja-guna, tamo-guna. Now you mix up. By first
mixing it becomes nine, and again mixing up, it becomes eighty-one. And each
quality, there are thousands and thousands of variety. And that means by mixing
up these qualities there are 8,400,000 species of forms of life. So it is
very... God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and
awards the body accordingly. It is not man-made law, that there may be some
mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, either
smallpox or cholera or this or that, you must develop that disease. Therefore we
should be desireless. Desireless means material desire. That material desire
begins with the designation. That... The child, he has got a childish body, and
he plays like a child. The same child, when he will get a youthful body, he will
do like that. The soul is the same. But on account of different type of body he
is acting differently. That is practical. A small child, in the childhood he
will talk like nonsense. People will enjoy it. But the same child, when he is
grown up and he talks like nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why?
The body has changed. The circumstance has changed. This is the real education,
that we are changing body, and according to our bodily situation we are acting
differently. That they do not understand. There is no school, college or
education about the soul and the soul's changing different position of different
body, and in this way he remains materially entangled. And the real relief is to
get him out of this bodily concept of life and advance in spiritual concept
of...Ambassador: So bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the
mind.Prabhupada: Yes. Right you are. You are intelligent and... Yes. That is
the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this
education will keep him within this material body. And his real relief is how to
get out of this material body. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. This
is required, in Bhagavad-gita. After giving up this body no more acceptance of
this material body. That is real education. And Bhagavata says, pita na sa syaj
janani na sa syat, gurur na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. There is no
need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this
material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should
train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the
student will not have to accept any more this material body. That is education.
And the whole Vedic education is meant for this purpose. [break] ...in his
original spiritual life, that is mukti. So Krsna consciousness movement means
that -- to educate people how to achieve his original consciousness. That is
Krsna consciousness. This is...Ambassador: Well, this in one form or another
is the aim of any true tradition.Prabhupada: Hmm? True?Ambassador:
Tradition.Prabhupada: Tradition?Ambassador: Religion.Prabhupada: No.
Tradition, religion, they are all material. They are also all designation. I am
thinking I am Hindu, you are thinking you are Christian, he is thinking as
Buddhist -- these are all designation.Ambassador: Within each of these there
is the esoteric.Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it is material. Therefore
Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up all this type of
false religion." Mam ekam saranam vraja. That means come to Krsna consciousness.
Ekam, only one. So unless one becomes fully Krsna conscious, he is in trouble of
this material condition. And our difficulty is that when we want to convince
another person about Krsna consciousness, he thinks that "I am Hindu, I am
Christian, I am Mohammedan, so they are trying to proselytize me." That is the
difficulty.Ambassador: No, it was not that I was really saying. Rather that
what I have heard from others comes to the same thing as you are
saying.Prabhupada: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is all
right, because that type of religion or that system of religion is first-class
which teaches for this thing, that "Come to platform of God consciousness and
love God." Then that is first-class system of religion. It doesn't matter what
is the designation. But where is that happening?Ambassador: The process of
change of consciousness which is actually taking place in the world under many
influences, I think...Prabhupada: No. The influence should be only Krsna, or
God. Krsna, when we speak of "Krsna" -- God. But they have no clear idea what is
God. How does He speak, how does He act, where does He live, what is His form,
what is His qualities -- nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know
about all this, about God?" They do not know. What do you think, Atreya? Have
they any clear conception of God? They imagine something. If they think of God
at all... First of all, generally they think of impersonal or void. Just like
the Buddhists. They think God is zero. And others, they think that God has no
form. The two classes. The Hindus they think, "Yes, God has no particular form,
but He has got many forms. And you can imagine any one of them." That is
Sankara, the pancopasana. But still, Sankara is very careful. He has given five
particular forms. The goddess Durga, Lord Visnu, Lord Siva, the sun, then...
Therefore there are a section who are the sun worshiper, or fire worshiper.
Original Iranians were like that. So that is Vedic culture. There... Vedic
culture means there are many demigods, but the original God is accepted-Visnu.
And original to Visnu is Krsna. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
[Bs. 5.1]. And Krsna also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah parataram nanyat:
[Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior form or superior authority than Me." And
that is confirmed by Lord Brahma. Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Isvarah
means controller. There are different grades of controller, but the supreme
controller is Krsna. And Krsna says, mam ekam: "Unto Me alone." (to devotee:)
What is that?Parivrajakacarya: It is apple juice.Prabhupada: So our
Krsna consciousness movement is scientific, authorized. People has to give
little attention. Then they will understand. Therefore we are publishing so many
books, only about Krsna. In every page you will find "Krsna, Krsna, Krsna."
Either in Krsna book or in Caitanya-caritamrta or in the Bhagavata or in The
Nectar of Devotion or in Teachings of Lord Caitanya, the word is Krsna. That is
simply explained in different way.Ambassador: What does the word actually
mean? Kr is the root for "making," isn't it?Prabhupada: Krsna? Yes, krs. Krs
means karsati, "attraction" or "cultivating." "Cultivation." Just like
cultivator, he, digging the earth, that is also karsati. And there is another
word in Bhagavad-gita, manah sasthani indriyani..., karsati. Find out this
verse. Manah-sasthani indriyani prakrti-sthani karsati. Fifteenth Chapter.
Karsati. That is from krs.Ambassador: Krs, then, has attractiveness and it
has cultivator.Prabhupada: And cultivating, yes.Ambassador: Yes. In
Greek my name is also "cultivate." In Greek the origin of my name is
"cultivate." Gheragoss.(?)Prabhupada: And this Greek work is kristo. There
is a word in Greek. It is called kristo. And Krsna is sometimes pronounced by
ordinary man as Krsta. And that kristo word means "love," if I am not wrong,
that Greek word. And from that kristo the word Christ has come.Ambassador:
Karitas(?), yes.Prabhupada: So there is some connection of Krsna with these
things. What is that?Ambassador: There are so many parallels between Krsna
and Christ.Prabhupada: So many.Ambassador: "Born in the cave."
Yes.Prabhupada: What is that?Nitai:mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam
vedanta-vid vedanta-krd ca aham
[Bg. 15.15]
mamaivamso
jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati
[Bg. 15.7]
"The living entities in this conditioned world
are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life they are struggling
very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."Prabhupada: That is
the position of the conditioned soul. They are struggling for existence.
Existence means finding out how to come to the original consciousness, and that
is struggle. Krsna means "love," so everyone is struggling hard how to be in the
platform of love. So many institution-philanthropy, international and the United
Nation -- the only attempt: how to love each other. But they are struggling.
They have not attained the platform, simply struggling. There have been so many
attempts to unite. The vivid example is the United Nation. Formerly that was
League of Nation. And people are manufacturing ideas, philanthropism and
altruism, Communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is, they
are trying to come to the platform of love. But they are manufacturing their own
way. The Krsna solves, that "Not in this way. Simply make Me center, and the
whole thing will be done." But that they will not do. They will do in their own
way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me; my idea will clash
with you. So same struggle continues, that's all. The Communist will not agree
with the others, or capitalists, and capitalists will not agree with the
Communists. But they are struggling to come to that point, the platform of
love.Ambassador: Yes, it's the interattractiveness even in a planetary scale
that holds the world.Prabhupada: And Caitanya Mahaprabhu gives very shortcut
formula that "You sit together, chant Hare Krsna, and everything will be
solved." Very simple thing: "Sit together and chant Hare Krsna." That also they
will not do. There is no loss. Let us make an experiment -- that also we are not
executing. What is the loss? If we sit together and chant Hare Krsna we are not
losing anything. If there is some gain, why not make an experiment? So if you
propose this to the United Nation, he'll think of me, "A crazy
fellow."Ambassador: Like we did together in Delhi.Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
You have seen it. They were very much eager. They were very much eager: "Swamiji
continue." And the others, like Communist and others, they became upset. I have
seen many big, big officers. They were chanting, returning from the office in
the office dress, and they were chanting and dancing. And you have seen the
crowd, twenty thousand, thirty thousand people. The same thing happened in
Calcutta. Now the government did not give us again that land. Yes. Last time
when we held that conference in Delhi...Paramahamsa: On the LIC
Grounds?Prabhupada: No, no, no. They gave us that Tal Kotara Park, you know?
That is in the jungle. Nobody could reach there, and they gave us place there.
(Ambassador laughs) Still, there were not less ten thousand people. It was not
easily approachable. The motorcar cannot go. You have to leave your car three
miles away to come there.Ambassador: I know the place.Prabhupada: Yes.
You know very well. You are (were?) in Delhi.Ambassador: It is a difficult
thing to get to.Prabhupada: Yes. And they gave us place. At the last moment
they rejected. First of all they gave. Then, at the last moment, the
municipality said, "No, this land cannot be given to any religious function."
Rejected. And offered, "If you like, you can take this place." So we had no
other alternative to accept it. We advertised that "We are going to hold this
ceremony," and the authority rejected at the eleventh hour and offered the Tal
Kotara place. We had to accept it. And the government indirectly giving us so
many hindrances in India. Yes. They do not like. One of the important member of
the cabinet, he frankly said that "We do not want that your movement will
increase very fast in India." Because they know it, Indira Gandhi and company,
that India is naturally inclined to Krsna. And if the selected people of the
world, combined together, they push this movement in India, then the whole
program of the modern leaders will collapse. That's a fact. And that was my
idea. I wanted to start this movement from India. But nobody cooperated. So then
I decided to come to America. And my plan was successful.Ambassador: What
was your connection with McGill? I heard from...Prabhupada: (Sic:) McGill.
McGill I was...Ambassador: You preached (?) first in McGill?Prabhupada:
No, I was lecturing only.Atreya Rsi: Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's
[break]Prabhupada: He sent his first book...Ambassador:
Yes.Prabhupada: ...in 1896. Bhaktivinoda Thakura was the first origin of
this movement. But he simply thought of it. And he was expecting some others
that willing to take up the work. Well, somebody says that I am the same man.
And I was born in 1896. So he wanted to combine the whole civilized nations
under this Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult, Hare Krsna movement. I think I have given
this hint in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya.Nitai: Teachings of Lord
Caitanya. Yes.Ambassador: Well, I am very happy to have had this chance to
be with you. How long will you be here?Prabhupada" :Two days.Ambassador:
That's all. And then?Prabhupada: I am going to India. We have to hold the
Lord Caitanya's birthday anniversary. And open our Vrndavana temple. In Bombay
we have got very nice land purchased, and the government will not give us
sanction for the temple. The... I approached the Maharastra governor through
another friend governor. The governor of Uttar Pradesh, he is my friend. So I
explained to him, "This this is the position. You request the governor to give
me sanction." So he has very ardently requested, explaining the whole thing
about my position, my... He is member of this movement, and still, he is
neglecting. He has said no. Yet... But no answer.Ambassador: You know, when
I had Mr. Trudeau, our prime minister, visiting India in '71, first place I took
him was Vrndavana.Prabhupada: Who?Ambassador: Our prime minister of
Canada, Mr. Trudeau.Prabhupada: Oh.Ambassador: So we went the first
place...Prabhupada: Vrndavana.Ambassador: Vrndavana
temple.Prabhupada: In Vrndavana still there is little glimpse of spiritual
ideas in India. But the government is trying to spoil this place also. Starting
oil refinery.Ambassador: In Vrndavana?Prabhupada: Yes.Ambassador:
And that in the name of progress. (laughter)Prabhupada: Yes. They have
already opened some factory. One factory is there in Mathura, in... What is? Who
preserve the fruits in cans, what they are called?Parivrajakacarya:
Cannery.Prabhupada: Cannery? Anyway, so when they boil this onion, up to ten
miles the good smell spread. (laughter) You see? And the whole atmosphere of
Vrndavana is spoiled. Similarly, they are trying to refine oil, and the refuse
will be thrown in the Yamuna. So the river Yamuna will be spoiled. Nobody will
go to take bath. This is Indian government's policy. They think that this
so-called spiritual fanaticism of India is the cause of India's material
degradation. So this must be killed. Like the Russians.Ambassador: Um hm. I
know they think that sometimes. Even here there are people who think
that.Prabhupada: Oh, they are thinking like that? But I heard that the king
is very pious.Ambassador: One of the big people here, I said to him -- after
I argued about this for hours -- I said, "You are Western and I am Eastern, not
the other way around." (laughs) Thank you very much. I shall take your
leave?Prabhupada: So, give him prasada. Give him the whole plate. (laughs)
You can take whole plate. So I am very glad to see you.Ambassador: Yes. And
she was hoping to come later, but if you're only going to be here two days I
don't know whether she will...Paramahamsa: We're leaving the 15th, evening
of the 15th.Ambassador: Yes, but this is the 13th now. I will take this to
her. Thank you very much.Prabhupada: Thank you very much for your coming.
Hare Krsna.Ambassador: Hare Krsna.Prabhupada: Jaya. (Ambassador
apparently leaves) [break] (end)jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati
[Bg. 15.7]
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975,
Iran
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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