Amogha: Srila Prabhupada, this is
Carol Cameron from the University of West Australia. She has a degree in Social
Work, in Arts, and she's working on a Master's Degree in Anthropology. In this
degree her paper is on the subject of the influence of Hindu and Buddhist
mysticism on the West. So she would like to ask you some questions. This is our
spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada.Carol: I would like to know why in the beginning why you came to
the West. I know a bit about your background, but not very much. Why you saw the
need to come.Prabhupada: That I was speaking. Of course, it is very strong
words. That Western people they are claiming very civilized, but I have got
objection. Therefore I have come to the West. Because, for example, the
animal-killing. The Western people are mostly Christians. Now, Lord Jesus Christ
said that "Thou shall not kill." But the result was that two thousand years
passed, but the people of the Western countries, they are still killing. So when
they have accepted Christianity? What is your answer?Carol: But the actual
original scriptures aren't enacted in Western life.Prabhupada: I mean to say
that Lord Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." So, what kind of men were
there that Lord Christ had to request them not to kill? That means they were
killers. Suppose if somebody's thief, and if I give him some good instruction, I
say "You should not commit theft." That means you are thief. You are already.
Otherwise why I say that "Thou shall not commit theft"? A naughty child is
disturbing. I say, "My dear child, don't do this." Similarly, when Christ said,
"Thou shall not kill," that means he said amongst people who were in the habit
of killing. Is it not?Carol: Hmm.Prabhupada: Now, after taking
instruction from Christ, first of all they killed Christ. That means they could
not understand the instruction. Therefore their first business was to kill the
instructor. And after that, two thousand years passed, still they are killing.
So when they have accepted the teachings of Lord Christ? Can you answer
this?Carol: So you think the Christian faith hasn't been reflected in the
behavior of Western people.Prabhupada: This is practical. You are
maintaining huge slaughterhouses, regular killing. So, you took instruction from
Christ, "Thou shall not kill." You first of all killed him, and then the killing
process is going on among the animals, and declaring wars every now and then. So
the killing business is going on regularly. In your regular life also. You are
maintaining big, big slaughterhouses. Then when you accepted the instruction of
Christ? That I want to know. What is that date?Carol: Do you see any hope
for the world? We seem to be moving towards destruction.Prabhupada: No,
my... You just explain.Amogha: He's asking you when did this civilization
actually accept the teachings of Christ?Carol: When have they? Not overall
at all, only in small pockets. Never overall.Prabhupada: Then why you are
claiming that you are Christian? Just like you are having cross. That is the
sign that you killed Christ. The cross is the killing symbol of
Christ.Carol: This is the resurrection symbol.Prabhupada: Maybe.
(laughter)Carol: But it's not only Christian symbol...Prabhupada: But
many, many priestly order, they carry the cross. Cross is the sign when Lord
Jesus Christ was killed. Is it not?Carol: It is, but that symbol is used in
a lot of ways.Prabhupada: That means how you killed Lord Jesus Christ. That
is the sign. That reminds you that you killed. You accuse the Jewish people
"They killed," but you are also killing. Although you are claiming Christian.
Therefore I want to know -- you are a learned scholar -- when you abided by the
order of Lord Jesus Christ? That is my question. When?Amogha: When did you
abide by the orders of Jesus Christ?Carol: When did I?Prabhupada: Every
one of you, Western countries. And if you have abided by the order of Jesus
Christ, then why you are systematically killing? The order is, "Thou shall not
kill."Carol: It reminds me of the Gita, you know? Where Arjuna is on the
battlefield about to commit an organized sort of killing against his
relatives.Prabhupada: No, two thousand years passed, but you could not
accept the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. And you are all claiming that you
are Christian. When did you accept Christianity? That is my question. Because
you have disobeyed the order of Christ. So when did you accept? Two thousand
years passed. Hmm? Who will answer this question?Jayadharma:
Never.Prabhupada: Hmm?Jayadharma: They never accepted.Carol: Hmm.
What is the main part of your philosophy? Is it based on the Vedanta
school?Prabhupada: No. This is no question of philosophy. You could not
accept the simple instruction. Then where is the question of
philosophy?Carol: The question of love.Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot
understand the principles of life and morality, Jesus Christ's instruction that
"Thou shall not kill." So how you become philosopher?Carol: How is the love
to be understood? Between people or through inner sort of communication with a
higher self?Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada said that you could not understand the
simple instruction, so where is the question of understanding philosophy? Not
love. Philosophy.Prabhupada: You have no love, because you are accustomed to
kill. Philosophy begins when you know that everyone is part and parcel of God,
and everyone should be given the full facilities to live without injuring anyone
for one's personal benefit. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. A pandita,
philosopher, means learned scholar. Not fools and rascals can become
philosopher. Those who are learned scholar, thoughtful, they can become
philosopher. But if one has no knowledge how to behave with other living
entities, what is the meaning of becoming a philosopher?Carol: How would you
go about teaching this idea of love?Prabhupada: Love means that I want to
eat something, and if I love somebody, then I will see that my beloved also
eats. If you take something from your beloved, naturally the lovers present
things. Just a boy loves a girl. He presents something to the girl. So, if you
accept presentation by others, we should give him also something. And, if I have
got some confidential thing, I must disclose it to the lover, and the lover is
also expected, he should not keep anything confidential. He should disclose it.
These are the six reciprocal exchanges between the lover and the beloved. If I
love you, because you are beautiful, for my sense gratification, but I keep
everything secret, that is not love. That is sense gratification. Lust. These
are the signs of love.
dadati pratigrhnati
bhunkte bhojayate caiva
guhyam akhyati prcchati
ca sad-vidham priti-laksanam
Priti means
love. These are the symptoms. Give and take, eat and give to eat, open you mind,
and know the other party's mind also. This is love. The more you increase the
six kinds of exchange, there is increase in the love.Carol: Do you think a
man who says he loves God should withdraw from the world, say into a community
or something like that?Prabhupada: First of all between two. Then you can
expand it. First the love between-love means there are two, the lover and the
beloved. So, the transaction begins between the two, then it expands.Carol:
How do you go if you look at the two as say the creator and the person? Would
that be the two that you have in mind? How would you go about fostering that
relationship?Amogha: She says if you mean by the two the creator and us, how
would you go about fostering or increasing that relationship between us
and...Prabhupada: Creator, created. Do you believe in creator?Carol:
Impersonal creator, yes.Prabhupada: Huh?Amogha: She says impersonal
creator.Prabhupada: Impersonal?Amogha: Yes.Prabhupada: Oh, what is
that philosophy? Impersonal creator?Carol: Without any attributes that we
can...Prabhupada: Creator is an attribute. To become creator, that is
attribute. If I create this bell, I know the art of how to create a
bell.Carol: Hmm.Prabhupada: So, this is my attribute. How you can say
the creator is without attribute? This is false philosophy. I know how to create
this bell. That is my artistic sense. That is my qualification. And how you say
I am without qualification? As soon as you say "creator," then He has got many
qualifications.Carol: How can ignorance be removed?Prabhupada: The
ignorant people can also learn from the learned. If you have got this idea that
creator is impersonal, that means you are not a learned. You have no knowledge.
And this is the simple answer. As soon as you say "creator," He has so many
qualities. The bell... Suppose I am ringing. Now, when the spring is loose, it
does not sound. So, others may not know, but one who has created -- "Oh, the
spring is loose. Now we wind it again." That means I know, ins and outs and
everything. That is creator. So, if one is cognizant of everything, how He can
be impersonal? What is this philosophy? Hmm? Answer. You are
philosopher.Amogha: He says if the creator, if one is cognizant of
everything, then how can He not be a person? The creator is cognizant of
everything. So if He is cognizant, how can He not be a person?Carol: Well,
He would incorporate personal attributes...Prabhupada: Hmm? She says
"He."Carol: ...not be governed by them.Prabhupada: She says "He," but He
is impersonal. (laughter)Carol: Yes. (laughs) It's the intellect and the
emotion.Prabhupada: How vague ideas. And they are passing on philosophy.
"He" contradicts. You say "He." And again He is impersonal.Carol: At the
emotional level it's a very personal...Prabhupada: Why should you emotional?
You are a philosopher. You should talk very nicely.Carol: Talk?Amogha:
He said, why be emotional? You are a philosopher, so talk very nicely.Carol:
Oh. (surprised) I don't philosophize.Amogha: What she just said was that He
is impersonal, but He incorporates personal features?Carol: If God is in
everything, then the personal attributes must be part of Him, it,
whatever.Amogha: She says personal attributes are part of God.Carol: But
God is not just limited to...Prabhupada: You have no idea of God.Carol:
No. I don't think...Prabhupada: He must be person. As soon as you say "He
knows everything," "He creates," and so many other things, then these are all
personal. You say "He." "He." These are all personal.Carol: This in only our
idea of God though, not necessarily...Prabhupada: That means you have no
clear idea of God. You have vague idea. So you have to learn what is
God.Carol: You think you can know the nature of God?Amogha: She says do
you think you can know the nature of God?Prabhupada: Yes. You can know
also.Carol: In an intellectual way?Prabhupada: You can know
also.Carol: You might know something in your heart but not be able to
express it.Prabhupada: Why not express it? You can express it. If whatever
is within your heart, if you cannot express, then you are not perfect. You must
express what is within your heart very clearly. Not that I have got something
within my heart and I cannot express. That means my knowledge is
imperfect.Carol: So often our understanding moves sort of separately the
emotional, the heart.Prabhupada: Emotion is not required for scientific
knowledge. Emotion is not. Useless. It must be factual. Emotion is no use.
Emotion is useful in high, ecstatic love. Not for scientific study of something
you require emotion. No.Carol: In the bhakti way of doing things, this
emotion and love are very closely entwined, aren't they?Prabhupada: Yes.
That is higher stage. Not in the beginning. In the beginning devotion means I
should be devoted to you. Why should I be devoted to you unless you are worthy?
Just like Krsna says, "You surrender unto Me." So unless I understand that Krsna
is worth for my surrendering, He is worthy, why shall I surrender to Krsna? If I
demand, immediately you have come, that you surrender. Would you like to do
that?Carol: To surrender?Prabhupada: If I ask you that you surrender. I
am meeting you for the first time. Would you like to surrender?Carol:
Yes.Prabhupada: I don't think. (laughter)Carol: To want to and to do it
is different.Prabhupada: No, unless you are fully aware of my abilities,
qualities, why should you surrender? (indistinct) So, before surrendering, one
has to study the person where he is going to surrender. Then he surrenders. That
is real surrender. And blindly surrender, that will not stay. So, our first
business is to surrender to God; therefore we must know what is God. Then you
must surrender. And, the emotion is good. That means you are advanced. If you
understand that God is giving us everything. So, that emotion is very good. If
one from the very beginning becomes emotional, "Oh, God is so kind. God is so
great, that He is giving us everything, our necessities. I must serve Him." This
emotion is very good. But for ordinary man, this emotion does not come. He wants
to study what is God. Then when he fully understands, "Oh, God is so great."
Then that emotion is very nice. That is genuine emotion. Otherwise emotion is
sentiment. That will not stay. That will not endure. It is temporary.Carol:
Would the intellect be helpful in knowing God?Prabhupada: Yes. Unless you
have got the necessary intellect, then you are no better than the animals. The
animals have no intellect to understand God, but the human being has got that
intellect. That is the distinction between animal and human being. [break]
Sleeping, the human being also sleeps; they also sleep. Then sex enjoyment: the
human being also enjoy, and the animals also enjoy. And protection from fear or
becoming fearful -- the human being is also fearful and arranges for protection,
and the animal also does. So far the primary necessities of life, that is equal
in animal and human being. But the human being has a special intellect developed
than the animals that he can understand what he is, what is God, what is this
cosmic manifestation, and what is the aim of life, how we should conduct. These
things are prerogatives for the human being. The animals have no such
prerogative. So if we do not utilize these special intellectual activities, then
we remain animal. We do not make any development. So at the present moment they
are improving the method of primary necessities of life -- eating, sleeping,
mating and defending. They are thinking the dog is eating on the floor; if we
can eat on table, chair and nice dish, that is advancement of civilization. They
are thinking like that. The dog is sleeping on the floor, and if we sleep in
very nice apartment, very decorated, that is advancement of civilization. The
dog is having sexual intercourse on the street without any shame, and we are
also coming to that point already. And if we have sex intercourse in the name of
love and so on, so on, that is advancement. And dog is defending with his jaws
and nails and teeth, you are defending with atomic bomb, therefore we are
advanced. But they have forgotten that the human being has got this special
intellect to understand God. That they are not doing. Just like you are going to
be a doctor in anthropology. Is it not?Carol: Yes.Prabhupada: Where is
the sense of God there?Carol: I only do it for a living. The other side of
me is something...Prabhupada: No. I mean to say the anthropology it is a big
scientific department. Where is the understanding of God there?Carol: I find
it difficult to reconcile the love of God with actually doing something like
this.Prabhupada: Then how you are going to speculate on
anthropology?Carol: Hmm.Prabhupada: If you cannot adjust, how you are
wasting your time in the science, anthropology? It is a false science.Carol:
I'm waiting to be led into something which is good.Prabhupada: There is no
meaning.Carol: Yes. You can only decide in...Prabhupada: The whole
theory, Darwin's theory, is a false theory. It has no sound background. He says
it is theory. Theory is not science. I can propose some theory, "It is like
that." But that is not science. Science means observation and experiment. That
is science. You observe how the rules are working, and when you practically
bring them into experiment, then it is science. If you simply theorize, that is
not science. Mental speculation. It has no benefit. You can speculate,
constructing a castle in the air. That is not a very good thing. You should
present something which will benefit the people, and practical. That is
science.Carol: Do you think it is possible to live in say an education
framework, or should it be something quite separate?Prabhupada: Education,
if it is not for the benefit of the people, then what is the use of such
education? That is not a good education. Education means something which will
benefit the mass of people. That is education. To enlighten them to do something
better. That is education. And this whole Darwin's theory is false. But people
are giving too much stress. First of all, anyone, even Darwin, he's not
independent. Just like Darwin has died. So, he is under the control of something
higher. Nobody wants to die, but he is forced to die. Is it not? Then where is
his independence?Carol: That is the illusion.Prabhupada: Hmm?Amogha:
She says that is the illusion of independence.Prabhupada:? Yes, so if you
simply in illusion you live, then where is your education? If you remain in
darkness, then where is your education? Illusion means darkness. So if you are
in darkness, now what is your education? And where is your philosophy?Carol:
The only way to remove this darkness is through love. Is this what you are
saying?Prabhupada: Love is far away. First of all you be educated.Carol:
How? In what way?Prabhupada: Education means right knowledge. Right
knowledge. Just like, everyone wants to live. Nobody wants to die. So, the
enquiry should be that "I do not wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" What
is that force? What is the nature of that force? If I submit, "Yes, the force is
there," then where is my knowledge? I do not wish to die. So why death is forced
upon me? Nobody wants miserable condition of life, but miserable condition of
life is enforced upon me. So this should be first of all enquired, that I do not
want these things, and who is enforcing upon me these things? This is the first
enquiry, philosophical.Carol: I tend to approach from the other side and ask
"Who am I?" and "What is this thing that I call myself?"Prabhupada: It is
everyone's problem. I don't want something, but something is enforced upon me.
Just like you are now a young girl. You do not like to be old woman. But you
will have to become old woman.Carol: Become?Amogha: Old woman.Carol:
Oh, yes. Hmm.Prabhupada: Nature will force you that after forty years of age
you must become old, and you must not remain so beautiful. This is forced. But
no one wants that. No woman wants that "I shall look not beautiful and my flesh
should be flabby and no more luster. I don't want all these things." Why it is
forced?Carol: Suffering and pain leads people to God, doesn't
it?Prabhupada: Hmm?Amogha: She says doesn't the suffering and pain lead
people towards God?Prabhupada: Yes, that is the law, but we are so
dull-headed that we do not enquire. That is my statement, that you should
enquire "Who is forcing these things?" Then there is enquiry of God. First of
all we must be... Just like a dog. He cannot understand. He's under chain. He's
leading a life most dependent. And he is jolly. He is jumping here and there.
That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is
very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life. Human life is
that I am dependent in every step, still I am declaring independent. What is
this nonsense? This enquiry should be there. He is dependent in every step,
exactly like the cats and dogs, but he is claiming, "I am
independent."Carol: Is it possible to carry out that enquiry while you're
engaged in activities?Prabhupada: Yes. That is the real enquiry. Wherefrom
my life has begun? What is the ultimate goal of my life? Why I am put into these
conditions which I do not like? Who is enforcing? These things should be asked.
That is the proper enquiry of the human being. And we cannot solve the question
of birth, death, old age and disease, and you are theorizing something utopian.
What is the use of such advancement of knowledge? I live for fifty years and
sixty years, and the Darwin's theory they are calculating gap of millions of
years. There is a gap of millions of years, and we will live for fifty years.
How we are taking calculation of millions of years? Speculation simply. And
misleading people. An honest man should not mislead others. He should understand
that his knowledge is limited. How can I say something theorizing? That is not
very good business. And misleading people. I have no perfect knowledge. I am
theorizing. What is the use? I have no actually accurate knowledge, and I am
theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluff. That is going on. An honest man
should not take part in big bluffs. First of all you must have accurate
knowledge, and I am theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluffs. First of all
you must have accurate knowledge. Then you bring knowledge to others. That is
our proposition. First of all make your life perfect, then you try to give
knowledge. If you have no knowledge, vague knowledge, not definite knowledge,
then why should you try to give knowledge to others?Carol: Can you have
perfect knowledge?Prabhupada: What?Carol: Can you have perfect
knowledge,...Prabhupada: Yes.Carol: I mean ultimately you might say that
I might be able to have some, but it's still a bit doubtful. In the near future
how could you ever...Prabhupada: Perfect knowledge you can immediately,
provided you take knowledge from the perfect. If you receive knowledge from a
bogus person, then how you can have perfect knowledge? Knowledge has to be
received from a person. Why shall I go to a school, college, teachers, guru? To
receive knowledge. So if your teacher, guru or parent, those who are your
superior, if they are perfect, then you get perfect knowledge. But if your
teacher is a bogus, then you get bogus knowledge.Carol: And this is
immediate, is it?Amogha: She says is this immediate, the reception of
perfect knowledge?Prabhupada: Yes. Just like we are giving knowledge from
Bhagavad-gita. This is perfect knowledge. You take it; you become
perfect.Carol: And your actions are perfect actions?Prabhupada: What is
that?Amogha: And your actions are perfect actions?Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita you'll find -- you have read Bhagavad-gita?
No.Carol: Mmm.Prabhupada: It is said, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. Think
of God. So we are doing this. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna -- we are
thinking of Krsna. THe direction is there, and we are doing that. Therefore my
action is perfect. If the physician says that you take this medicine in such and
such dose, you don't do this, and do this. If I follow, then I'm cured,
perfect.Carol: Does a man then stop judging his actions?Prabhupada: No,
if I know that the knowledge which I am receiving from the person is perfect,
then there is no question of judging. You simply follow.Carol: So it's a
matter of complete faith.Prabhupada: Just like a child. Child assumes that
my father is perfect. So, actually a father should be perfect at least for the
child. So whatever the father, mother, gives him knowledge, that is perfect.
Father says, "My dear child, this is called 'table.' " The child does not know
what is table, but he understand from his father. He says, "This is table." So
when the child says it is table, it is fact. This is perfect. He may be
imperfect, his child, but because he is repeating the perfect knowledge of his
father, whatever he is speaking is perfect. Because he has received the
knowledge. Actually the child inquires from the father, "Father, what is this?"
Father smiles at child, "This is called bell. If you push your hand in this."
Then you get the perfect knowledge. He tries it. Oh, it is coming. The knowledge
is there. He may be imperfect, but the instruction he has received, that is
perfect. Similarly, if you get instruction from the perfect, then your knowledge
is perfect, and if you receive knowledge -- just like anthropology -- from an
imperfect person, Darwin, then whole thing is imperfect. So why should we waste
our time in imperfect knowledge?Carol: Because there are few people around
us who think they are perfect.Prabhupada: That is another thing, that people
want to be cheated, so I shall be perfect cheater. (laughter) That is another
thing. And take my doctorate title, being a perfect cheater.Carol: If you
look for those who are perfect, you don't find any.Amogha: She says there
are so few perfect people, if you look for a perfect person, you don't find
any.Prabhupada: Therefore we are giving-here is Krsna. Here is the perfect
person. You take. But you don't follow Him. Just like I began with. Jesus Christ
is perfect, but you don't follow him.Carol: Mmm.Prabhupada: You don't
like to follow him. You follow Darwin. Whose fault it is? The perfect person's
fault, or your fault? You don't like to hear from the perfect person. You want
to hear from a humbug bogus person. That is the defect. (long silence)Carol:
Thank you. Thank you.Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.Ganesa: All glories to Srila
Prabhupada.Prabhupada: Give him some prasada.Amogha: He's bringing
something for you.Carol: We have your record, the Radha-Krsna Temple album.
It's beautiful. We sing the chants every night now. They're rather
lovely.Amogha: She says she has the Radha-Krsna Temple album, and every
night they sing the chants. At home. They have the record from
London.Prabhupada: Oh.Carol: They're pretty hard to get hold of. I wish
there were more around.Prabhupada: Yes, that will benefit. That will
benefit.Amogha: They are available by mail from America.Carol: I think a
lot of people don't know it exists, that's the problem.Prabhupada: That
record which was done by George Harrison?Carol: Yes. It's very rare to find
music like that here.Prabhupada: George Harrison has contributed many. He
gave me first of all nineteen thousand dollars for printing Krsna book. Now he
has purchased one house in London, and we are using that. It is two hundred
thousand pounds. Yes, he is a good boy, good soul.Carol: You don't have a
group in Perth, do you?Prabhupada: He is also chanting Hare Krsna. Yes. He
chants all day Hare Krsna. He has made some record, "Krsna."Amogha: "My dear
Lord, I really want to see You." Something like that.Prabhupada: Like that,
yes. "Krsna" he has said.Srutakirti: Yes. His latest album, "Krsna Where Are
You?"Amogha: Oh, I haven't seen it.Prabhupada: And in the record album
he has given this picture. So you are intelligent girl, you study about this
Krsna consciousness. That will benefit you. The anthropology you may get some
degree, adoration. What is the benefit? Jaya. (Carol leaves) They enquire why I
have come to the West. If I enquire that two thousand year ago you have been
taught that "Thou shall not kill," and your business is only to kill. I have
come to enquire from you, "What is your answer?" How you have become civilized,
that you cannot accept one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are declaring
yourself as Christian and civilized. This is my question. Answer it. In two
thousand years, first of all you began killing Christ. Never mind, still, two
thousand years past, you could not stop killing? You could not accept the first
instruction. What kind of civilized man?Jayadharma: Sometimes they say,
Prabhupada, that Jesus meant just...Prabhupada: Meant?Jayadharma:
...just human beings.Prabhupada: All right. That means you are killer of
human beings. THat means, in the beginning, you are all killers of human beings.
And therefore you killed Jesus Christ. That is not very good qualification.
Killer of human being... He said "Thou shall not kill." Where he says that "Thou
shall not kill human beings"? That is your interpretation.Srutakirti: That's
obvious he meant only human beings, because he himself was killing
animals.Prabhupada: Christ was killing animals?Srutakirti: Well, he
instructed his own disciples to distribute the fish. So he was also involved in
killing of animals.Prabhupada: Yes, but he said that the fuits and vegetable
should be your flesh. What is that?Srutakirti: Well, that was before Christ.
He never said that.Paramahamsa: He also said that.Srutakirti: Where does
he say that?Paramahamsa: He said that in the (inaudible). Yes. The Bible
says that and Christ also spoke that, that the grasses of the fields and the
fruits of the trees shall be your meat.Prabhupada: Then there is
contradiction?Paramahamsa: Yes. The Christians always say that Christ was
eating fish and drinking wine, so what problem have we got? Drinking a little
alcohol, eating a little meat?Prabhupada: Then how did he say that "Thou
shall not kill"?Srutakirti: That was actually the Ten Commandments. That was
given by God.Ganesa: Given to Moses.Srutakirti: That was given to Moses
by God. The Ten Commandments.Prabhupada: That is not Christ has
said?Srutakirti: Well, Christ enforced it.Paramahamsa: It was accepted
by him as one of the rules.Srutakirti: Christ's greatest commandment was to
love God above all things. So if one is to love God, one must follow His
instructions.Prabhupada: Who is following the instructions?Srutakirti:
We are.Prabhupada: But supposing Christ distributed fish, but did he say
that we shall maintain regular slaughterhouse for killing
animals?Srutakirti: He was against that. He threw the men out of the temple,
because they were selling lambs in the temple to be offered at the altar. So he
kicked them out, saying this temple is not a place for selling animals for
slaughter.Paramahamsa: But in one place they say Christ encouraged
fishermen. Because he came and the fishermen were fishing on one side of the
boat, and Christ came along and said, "You are fishing on the wrong side of the
boat." He said, "Put your nets on the other side, and you will get more fish."
An they did that and they got huge amounts of fish. And so they were encouraged
in their fish-eating in this way.Ganesa: Jesus also said to the fisherman,
"Give up you fishing and I will make you fishers of men." He said this to his
disciples.Prabhupada: Then on the whole it comes that his instructions are
sometimes contradictory.Paramahamsa: Not only that but they say that...
Usually when it comes right down to it, the Bible has gone through so many
interpretations and so many changes in the last two thousand years
that...Prabhupada: Yes. It is very difficult.Paramahamsa: People...,
I've talked to professors who know the original Hebrew and the original tongues
that the Bible was written in. They say that is has changed so much that you can
hardly...Prabhupada: Yes, they are changing. Just like he said, "Thou shall
not kill." They are now changing, "Thow shall not commit murder." They are doing
that.Paramahamsa: Yes. They have a modern Bible, using all modern
terminology.Prabhupada: So, when you change, then the authority is lost.
Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say,
"Prabhupada said." (laughter) They are doing that. We know that. It is
deteriorated like that. Therefore Krsna said, sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah
kaunteya: "And in due course of time, this yoga was lost. Therefore I am
repeating the same thing, old philosophy to you." So it requires like
that.Paramahamsa: One thing about the Christian religion is that through the
last two thousand years, Christ's original teachings may have been good
teachings, may have been potent preaching, but because there were no potent
preachers to carry on the preaching, therefore the whole thing has been lost.
But if there are potent preachers to continue reestablishing and establishing
the principles,...Prabhupada: So how you'll find, if everything is now
changed? Where you will get the right information?Paramahamsa: That's the
problem. That's why there are so many hundreds of branches of Christianity,
literally hundreds. So many divisions of Christianity. Some people accept this,
some people accept this.Prabhupada: Therefore we should advocate that
Bhagavad-gita is not like that. It is coming in the same form as it was taught
to Arjuna. If you challenge that "How you know that it has not been changed?"
the acaryas are there. The acaryas are there, and they are accepting. Therefore
it is correct. We have to follow the acaryas. So when we see the acaryas have
accepted, then we accept. All the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, before
that other acaryas also, they accept. They never say that "This was not in the
original scripture. It has been changed." You don't find any such statement of
the acaryas. The best thing, therefore, if you want a religious system,
Bhagavad-gita is coming without any contradiction, change, for the last five
thousand years. You accept it. Other scriptures are (unclear), and there are so
many doubts, so many interpretations. So, if you want real religious system,
this is the scripture spoken directly by God, and accepted by all the acaryas,
so take it. If you are really after God, so you take enlightenment from this
perfect scripture. If you want truth, it doesn't matter wherefrom it is coming.
I must accept the truth.Paramahamsa: The Christians openly admit that the
Bible has been changed, but they also have a lot of doubt about our
scripture.Prabhupada: No, even they doubt, the Christian religion is now
dead. That we see practically. So many churches are not working. Nobody comes
there. Nobody comes.Paramahamsa: As they have seen that their scripture has
been changed, they also have a very strong doubt about our scripture. They say
"Well, yours in even older than ours," so somewhere along the line they say it
must have been changed.Prabhupada: You say, but those who are the followers
of the authorities, they do not say. You are outsider. You say it may be. It may
not be, but you have no authority. You are simply taking a hypothesis, "it may
be." But those who actually are following, they do not say. What about this?
Whose version is more important? Your or theirs? You are outsider. You are
simply suggesting because you had a bad experience. But one who has no such
experience, why should he follow your advice?Paramahamsa: Actually if anyone
looks at Bhagavad-gita As It Is, presented by yourself, then they can logically
see that it is perfect.Prabhupada: Yes, we have got our argument, logic,
everything. Why should we blindly follow?Ganesa: The results can be seen
practically that those who are following the Bhagavad-gita written by you, Srila
Prabhupada, are giving up these nonsense activities.Prabhupada: Letters are
posted?Paramahamsa: No, not yet.Prabhupada: How they can deliver if you
don't post?Paramahamsa: Well the next time someone goes in. This evening
someone can post.Prabhupada: There is no letter box?Ganesa: There's not
one close. I can post them tonight.Prabhupada: No, night is useless. Nobody
is coming to clear.Ganesa: Yes, there's one collection at eight o'clock in
the night time.Prabhupada: Oh, then why not post there? It is
six.Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada, if the knowledge was handed down by the
saintly kings, evam parampara-praptam [Bg. 4.2], how is it that the knowledge
was lost?Prabhupada: When it was not handed down. Simply understood by
speculation. Or if it is not handed down as it is. They might have made some
changes. Or they did not hand it down. Suppose I handed it down to you, but if
you do not do that, then it is lost. Now the Krsna consciousness movement is
going on in my presence. Now after my deparature, if you do not do this, then it
is lost. If you go on as you are doing now, then it will go on. But if you
stop... (end)bhunkte bhojayate caiva
guhyam akhyati prcchati
ca sad-vidham priti-laksanam
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975,
Perth
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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