Hari-sauri: He said he can
understand meat-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and
normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or
not?Prabhupada: Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,
that whatever you eat, bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat [Bg.
3.13]. Anyone is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he
is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the
meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Krsna. It is
not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that
you become Krsna consciousness. That is our propaganda. But because we are
trying to become Krsna conscious, we offer something to Krsna. Patram puspam
phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So not patram puspam,
whatever within this group available, fruits, flowers, grains, milk, so we offer
to Krsna. Yajna. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9].
If you do not perform yajna, then you will be bound up by the resultant action.
So this is yajna, to offer to Krsna. Yajna means to satisfy Visnu.
Visnu-aradhyate. Yajna means satisfy Krsna. But if you don't Krsna's prasadam,
then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful.
Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jivo jivasya jivanam. Either you
eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating
animals, and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life.
Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are
simply eating sin. Bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat. But if you
take Krsna prasadam, then if there is any sin, it goes to Krsna, you take pure
prasadam. And Krsna is apapa-vidham. So our duty is to worship Krsna and offer
Him so many nice things -- fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We
are doing that. You are taking prasadam. So that is our business. Is it clear,
your answer?
Indian man (5): Yes.
Prabhupada: We are interested in eating Krsna prasadam. If Krsna says "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Meat-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tamasika, but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tamasika. It is described in the Bhagavad-gita, rajasika, tamasika, sattvika. Therefore we should eat sattvika, and that is also after offering to Krsna. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up.
Indian man (6): I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat.
Prabhupada: When?
Indian man (6): Asvamedha-yajna, all these things, and before that...
Prabhupada: That is now prohibited.
asvamedham gavalambham
sannyasam pala-paitrkam
devarena sutotpattim
kalau panca vivarjayet
[Cc. Adi 17.164]
If you refer to sastra, the sastra says in Kali-yuga these should be avoided. At that time, when there was asvamedha-yajna, gomedha-yajna, that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra, how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brahmana, yajnika brahmana? There is no such things, powerful brahmana. Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu challenged him, that "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in..., "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your sastra." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating.
Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why, how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by...
Prabhupada: Wrongly, wrongly. Krsna says, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. So according to quality and work... That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer-saheb. Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer-saheb," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brahmana, if you call him a brahmana, then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fools' paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification a brahmana, if he's addressed and given honor of a brahmana, he's sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brahmana, he's also rascal. But it is not that. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brahmana.
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brahmana.
Indian man (6): No, even in Ramayana and Mahabharata we find this kind of, Ekalavya was discriminated, Karna was discriminated...
Prabhupada: Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brahmana. One must be brahmana by practice; that is wanted.
Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yanti param gatim. Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brahmana he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-
Indian man (4): Prabhupada? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Krsna, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God?
Prabhupada: That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. You have got Srimad-Bhagavatam here? Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohaya sura-dvisam [SB 1.3.24]. His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajna like anything. So yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati [Bg. 4.7], so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahimsa paramo dharma: "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajna, as you were saying, that there is..., animal killing is recommended. So people presented that "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajna." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas. Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question?
Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God.
Prabhupada: Yes, because they were all godless, so he said, "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others.
Dhrstadyumna:
tatah kalau sampravrtte
sammohaya sura-dvisam
buddho namnanjana-sutah
kikatesu bhavisyati
[SB 1.3.24]
Prabhupada: Translation.
Dhrstadyumna: "Then in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists."
Prabhupada: To delude them. Read the purport.
Dhrstadyumna: "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gaya (Bihar) as the son of Anjana, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gita a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. According to the Bhagavad-gita, the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity as the soul are animal killers. Maharaja Pariksit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyasis have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas."
Prabhupada: Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyasi, they are eating meat. That is going on. They say, "What is the wrong of eating meat? Can eat." They eat meat. Then?
Dhrstadyumna: "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse."
Prabhupada: There, your question.
Dhrstadyumna: "Because the asuras, or the so-called scholars of Vedic..."
Prabhupada: Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. You think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstance, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says, "Thou shalt not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vina pasughnat [SB 10.1.4]. Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivrtta-tarsair upagiyamanad bhavausadhac chrotra-mano-'bhiramat ka uttamasloka-guna [SB 10.1.4]. If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished.
Guest (1): May I ask a question, Prabhupada? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Krsna is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Krsna? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Krsna from...
Prabhupada: He says that he is son of God; that is accepted.
Guest (1): Krsna was Christ's father then.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna is father, and Christ is the son.
Guest (1): I understand it now. I just wondered.
Prabhupada: He said "I am son of God." Yes.
Guest (1): And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is, yes.
Guest (1): I understand. It all fits together now.
Indian man (7): Swamiji, how could you convince these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Krsna was the...
Prabhupada: Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter)
Indian man (7): Many Christians, they do not...
Prabhupada: Many Christians also... There are so many Christian editions. That is another thing.
Bali-mardana: We have accepted.
Prabhupada: But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Krsna as the father?
Guest (1): Prabhupada, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Krsna?
Prabhupada: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Krsna, we accept him as saktyavesa-avatara. So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said "He's our guru." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru. He's preaching God's message; he's Vaisnava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaisnava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience... Now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said, "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with.
Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems.
Prabhupada: :Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves.
Devotee (3): So we read that Christ said "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Krsna, so therefore Krsna can't be God.
Prabhupada: "One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say aham brahmasmi. That means we are one in quality. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. So now we are material-bhutah, jiva-bhutah. When we realize that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhutah. Then bhakti begins.
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
Then he enters into Vaikuntha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished?
Dhrstadyumna: No.
Prabhupada: Go on, finish it.
Dhrstadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted..."
Prabhupada: Just like, you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore... [break] That was not killing. So, instead of wasting his time he said "I don't care for your Vedas. It is my order that you stop if you love me." You cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas, or any sacrifice either. The Jews, and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, raksasa. That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing, there will be a class of men who will eat meat -- to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kali-puja, Durga-puja, the animal eaters, they are given this concession, that "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kali," and this goddess Kali-worshiping is recommended on the amavasya, the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up. "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal..." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up."
Indian man (4): Srila Prabhupada, there are so many gurus...
Prabhupada: We are not talking of so many gurus, we are talking of real guru, that's all, real guru. Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Krsna. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. That is guru. The bumifor(?) guru is no guru. Avaisnavo gurur na syat. Anyone who is not Vaisnava, he's not guru. First, He says in the Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavan, ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68]. Find out this. He is guru, who is preaching what Krsna has taught, he's guru. Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru, that is your business, but who is guru, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Anyone who preaches the teachings of Krsna, he is guru. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "Simply repeat the instruction of Krsna, you become guru." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Krsna, not..." We say "Surrender to Krsna." Then you become guru. Krsna's instruction, not to become Krsna. If you want to become Krsna, then you are not guru, you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say "My master has fixed up this price; you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Krsna has said, that's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Krsna. Then you become guru. And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus, they're cheaters. They want to become Krsna. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is it so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra, I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that "Whether I can actually become God." They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Krsna. Time? So what is the time now?
Pusta Krsna: Eight o'clock, Srila Prabhupada.
Devotees: (Offer obeisances)
Prabhupada: Prasadam. (Hindi for a few seconds) (end)
Indian man (5): Yes.
Prabhupada: We are interested in eating Krsna prasadam. If Krsna says "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Meat-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tamasika, but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tamasika. It is described in the Bhagavad-gita, rajasika, tamasika, sattvika. Therefore we should eat sattvika, and that is also after offering to Krsna. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up.
Indian man (6): I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat.
Prabhupada: When?
Indian man (6): Asvamedha-yajna, all these things, and before that...
Prabhupada: That is now prohibited.
asvamedham gavalambham
sannyasam pala-paitrkam
devarena sutotpattim
kalau panca vivarjayet
[Cc. Adi 17.164]
If you refer to sastra, the sastra says in Kali-yuga these should be avoided. At that time, when there was asvamedha-yajna, gomedha-yajna, that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra, how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brahmana, yajnika brahmana? There is no such things, powerful brahmana. Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu challenged him, that "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in..., "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your sastra." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating.
Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why, how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by...
Prabhupada: Wrongly, wrongly. Krsna says, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. So according to quality and work... That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer-saheb. Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer-saheb," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brahmana, if you call him a brahmana, then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fools' paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification a brahmana, if he's addressed and given honor of a brahmana, he's sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brahmana, he's also rascal. But it is not that. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brahmana.
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brahmana.
Indian man (6): No, even in Ramayana and Mahabharata we find this kind of, Ekalavya was discriminated, Karna was discriminated...
Prabhupada: Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brahmana. One must be brahmana by practice; that is wanted.
Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yanti param gatim. Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brahmana he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-
Indian man (4): Prabhupada? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Krsna, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God?
Prabhupada: That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. You have got Srimad-Bhagavatam here? Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohaya sura-dvisam [SB 1.3.24]. His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajna like anything. So yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati [Bg. 4.7], so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahimsa paramo dharma: "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajna, as you were saying, that there is..., animal killing is recommended. So people presented that "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajna." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas. Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question?
Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God.
Prabhupada: Yes, because they were all godless, so he said, "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others.
Dhrstadyumna:
tatah kalau sampravrtte
sammohaya sura-dvisam
buddho namnanjana-sutah
kikatesu bhavisyati
[SB 1.3.24]
Prabhupada: Translation.
Dhrstadyumna: "Then in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists."
Prabhupada: To delude them. Read the purport.
Dhrstadyumna: "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gaya (Bihar) as the son of Anjana, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gita a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. According to the Bhagavad-gita, the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity as the soul are animal killers. Maharaja Pariksit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyasis have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas."
Prabhupada: Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyasi, they are eating meat. That is going on. They say, "What is the wrong of eating meat? Can eat." They eat meat. Then?
Dhrstadyumna: "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse."
Prabhupada: There, your question.
Dhrstadyumna: "Because the asuras, or the so-called scholars of Vedic..."
Prabhupada: Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. You think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstance, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says, "Thou shalt not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vina pasughnat [SB 10.1.4]. Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivrtta-tarsair upagiyamanad bhavausadhac chrotra-mano-'bhiramat ka uttamasloka-guna [SB 10.1.4]. If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished.
Guest (1): May I ask a question, Prabhupada? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Krsna is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Krsna? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Krsna from...
Prabhupada: He says that he is son of God; that is accepted.
Guest (1): Krsna was Christ's father then.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna is father, and Christ is the son.
Guest (1): I understand it now. I just wondered.
Prabhupada: He said "I am son of God." Yes.
Guest (1): And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is, yes.
Guest (1): I understand. It all fits together now.
Indian man (7): Swamiji, how could you convince these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Krsna was the...
Prabhupada: Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter)
Indian man (7): Many Christians, they do not...
Prabhupada: Many Christians also... There are so many Christian editions. That is another thing.
Bali-mardana: We have accepted.
Prabhupada: But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Krsna as the father?
Guest (1): Prabhupada, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Krsna?
Prabhupada: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Krsna, we accept him as saktyavesa-avatara. So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said "He's our guru." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru. He's preaching God's message; he's Vaisnava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaisnava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience... Now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said, "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with.
Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems.
Prabhupada: :Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves.
Devotee (3): So we read that Christ said "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Krsna, so therefore Krsna can't be God.
Prabhupada: "One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say aham brahmasmi. That means we are one in quality. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. So now we are material-bhutah, jiva-bhutah. When we realize that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhutah. Then bhakti begins.
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
Then he enters into Vaikuntha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished?
Dhrstadyumna: No.
Prabhupada: Go on, finish it.
Dhrstadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted..."
Prabhupada: Just like, you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore... [break] That was not killing. So, instead of wasting his time he said "I don't care for your Vedas. It is my order that you stop if you love me." You cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas, or any sacrifice either. The Jews, and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, raksasa. That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing, there will be a class of men who will eat meat -- to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kali-puja, Durga-puja, the animal eaters, they are given this concession, that "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kali," and this goddess Kali-worshiping is recommended on the amavasya, the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up. "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal..." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up."
Indian man (4): Srila Prabhupada, there are so many gurus...
Prabhupada: We are not talking of so many gurus, we are talking of real guru, that's all, real guru. Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Krsna. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. That is guru. The bumifor(?) guru is no guru. Avaisnavo gurur na syat. Anyone who is not Vaisnava, he's not guru. First, He says in the Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavan, ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68]. Find out this. He is guru, who is preaching what Krsna has taught, he's guru. Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru, that is your business, but who is guru, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Anyone who preaches the teachings of Krsna, he is guru. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "Simply repeat the instruction of Krsna, you become guru." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Krsna, not..." We say "Surrender to Krsna." Then you become guru. Krsna's instruction, not to become Krsna. If you want to become Krsna, then you are not guru, you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say "My master has fixed up this price; you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Krsna has said, that's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Krsna. Then you become guru. And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus, they're cheaters. They want to become Krsna. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is it so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra, I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that "Whether I can actually become God." They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Krsna. Time? So what is the time now?
Pusta Krsna: Eight o'clock, Srila Prabhupada.
Devotees: (Offer obeisances)
Prabhupada: Prasadam. (Hindi for a few seconds) (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Evening Darsana -- July 11, 1976, New York
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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