Paramahamsa: I understood that you
approach psychiatry, psychology, from the point of eastern
philosophy.Prabhupada: So, what can I do for you?
Psychiatrist: I have no question.
Prabhupada: He has no question?
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: Then, what shall I say?
Paramahamsa: I don't know, Srila Prabhupada. He had told me that he has read your Bhagavad-gita. He has a copy. Do you have any questions about the Bhagavad-gita? Has he understood it?
Psychiatrist: I just wished to meet you.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Paramahamsa: He says he just wished to meet you. Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse?
Prabhupada: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body -- anyone, but we specially take the human society -- they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment. So the whole Krsna consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is... In India there was a case. A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that... His pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the civil surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad. The civil surgeon said that "So far my experience is concerned -- I have treated so many persons -- in my opinion everyone is mad. So if on account of madness one should be excused from the law, then it is Your Honor's discretion, but so far I have studied, more or less, everyone is mad." Similarly, our study is that unless one is mad, he cannot remain in this material world. So everyone is mentally diseased, and they are concocting their ideas, different ideas. And they are overlapping, my idea, your idea overlapping. Therefore there is clash, unhappiness, violence, individually, socially, familywise, nationwise. This is going on. Therefore everyone requires a treatment, psychiatrist's treatment. And the best treatment is to induce a person to become Krsna conscious. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, a person who is not Krsna conscious, or God conscious, he is basically a mad man and requires treatment. (pause) Ghostly haunted man... You have experienced ghostly haunted man?
Paramahamsa: In Woodsaw (?) there was a ghost. In St. Kilda the devotees used to think there was a ghost, but not a man who was called...
Prabhupada: There is ghost. And sometimes ghost attacks a man. Because he has no material body, he wants to act through other's body. So the man who is attacked, he forgets himself, and he speaks and walks according to the dictation of the ghost. That is called ghostly haunted man.
Srutakirti: What is the significance of... What is this?
Prabhupada: He talks nonsense. Suppose his father comes before him, he calls him by ill names, like that. He talks nonsense. So anyone who is too much materially affected, he also talks nonsense. Anartha upasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje. The treatment is bhakti-yoga. That we are teaching. Without any exception, we accept everyone a patient for psychiatric treatment. He has this book?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then all other books we can show him.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, does the soul, the ghost, enter into the other man's body? The soul is occupying one body, and the ghost, as another soul, does he enter that body? There's two souls in the one body?
Prabhupada: Not exactly enters, but he catches the body. But because the ghost has no gross body -- he has got his subtle body, mind, intelligence, and ego -- you cannot see him, how he has attacked that body. You cannot see the body of mind, intelligence. You know I have got my mind; I know you have got your mind. But you do not see my mind; I do not see your mind. So ghost is within the subtle body: mind, intelligence, and ego. So with that subtle body, he attacks the man, but you cannot see. He does not enter into him. The enter is the soul within the body. Therefore sometimes ghost is walking in the room. We cannot see. But he takes away something. We see that the thing is going away. (laughter) Because you cannot see his gross body. And because he hasn't got gross body, he can move very swiftly. Now he is here; he can go ten miles away immediately. But there is ghost. And they attack specially woman.
Paramahamsa: Is that because the women are weaker?
Prabhupada: No. Woman is attractive for any man, even in ghostly life. The other day, who was telling that a big poet of India, he said that "God's most wonderful creation is woman's body"?
Srutakirti: I think Brahmananda Maharaja mentioned? Acyutananda.
Prabhupada: So, everyone is attracted with the woman's body. In your country I have seen the advertisement: "bottomless," "topless..." That is the material attraction. Everyone is in this material world on account of attachment. And similarly, for woman, the man's body is beautiful. So in this way both of them are attached to one another. That is the basic principle of material life. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45]. They become attached. On account of sex life, they become more attached, and therefore both of them remain almost perpetually in this material world, and to satisfy different desires they transmigrate from one body to another. And on account of accepting this material body, there is always miserable condition. Therefore everyone requires the psychiatric treatment so that the mind may be transferred from matter to spirit soul. Then he will be cured. The disease is of the mind. Harav abhaktasy kuto mahad-guna mano-rathena. Everyone is riding on the chariot of mind. And the mind is taking him here and there, here... And the yoga practice is also treatment. This is also yoga, bhakti-yoga, and this ordinary hatha-yoga, that is also treatment of the mind. Treatment of mind means controlling the senses. Yoga indriya-samyamah. Mind is the leader of the senses. So if the treatment of the mind is done properly, then the senses work properly. The example is the madman. Because the madman's mind is not controlled, he is acting in a way -- people say, "Here is a madman." So everyone is more or less a madman in this material world, or, in other words, you can say anyone who is in the material world, he is a madman. He requires treatment. Just like anyone who is in the prison house, it is to be accepted that he is a criminal. Without any study, without any exception we can accept all the prisoners as criminals. [break] ...gradually appreciate. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This treatment is in the beginning just cleansing the mirror of the heart. That is the treatment. Just like a mirror, when it is overcast with dust, it requires cleansing. So the mental mirror is covered with material dust. So it has to be cleansed. That is the treatment. And when it is cleansed, you can see your real face in the mirror. Similarly, as soon as our heart disease, contaminated by the modes of material nature, is cleansed, you can understand what is your real position. That is the success of psychiatric treatment. One comes to know, "What I am." Aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul; I am not this body." That is called brahma-bhutah stage. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. He becomes immediately happy. And happiness means na socati na kanksati: "He does not lament, neither he desires." Our present disease is we hanker after things which we do not possess, and when that thing is lost, we lament. So hankering and lamenting. So when one is cleansed in the heart, he has no more hankering or desire. This is the symptom. And samah sarvesu bhutesu: "Then he becomes equal to everyone." Everyone means every living being, man and animal, trees, plants, lower or higher. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. Then he enters into the sphere of devotional service. This is the symptom. Then he is perfectly in his original position. Then he is happy. Just like a diseased man. So long the disease is there, he is unhappy. And as soon as the disease is cured, he will be happy. So this material disease, as soon as it is cured, one becomes happy, because he is, by constitution, spiritual being. People have no knowledge even, his..., even about his spiritual identity. Therefore they are unhappy. So if you forget what you have written, then?
Paramahamsa: Do you remember what you wrote about, which part? About Krsna's birth?
Prabhupada: Krsna's birth? But in Bhagavad-gita there is no.
Paramahamsa: Maybe he means...
Indian boy: I've read that in (indistinct) and in other books in Hindi.
Paramahamsa: He said he read in some other...
Indian boy: I've been reading about Krsna.
Paramahamsa: He says he's read many books about Krsna in Hindi also. But maybe he means Chapter Four, verse six, where Krsna says He comes again in this world in His original form. Do you have any questions about Krsna?
Indian boy: Actually, I want to know how could I get more involved in, say, in religion, and... Want to become a truer devotee of Lord Krsna, you know, sacrifice myself really. How could I be one of pure devotee?
Paramahamsa: He wants to know how to become a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: You live with us and you will become pure devotee. They are pure devotees. You live with them and do whatever they are doing, their examples, and you will become pure devotee. Just like in a workshop, if you admit yourself without any knowledge, if you work with the workshop man, gradually you will learn how to work. It is not difficult. Formerly this was the custom in India, that when somebody sends his son to any workshop or any shopkeeper without any pay, so gradually he learns. And the master says, "Now I engage you with some pay." That is the way. Satam prasangat. By living with devotees, you'll learn devotion. So if you are serious, you are welcome. You can live with us and behave according to the other devotees. Then he's a...
Indian boy: Is it possible that I live on my own and still be a devotee?
Prabhupada: That will take long time. That, also, if you follow the regulative principles... It is difficult, little. But easier method is to live with the devotees because the situation and atmosphere in your home is different from devotion. So it is not very helpful. You have got other members in the family?
Indian boy: Yes, there is...
Prabhupada: So if you want to do something, they may not like it. So that is impediment. But if you live with the devotees, then you learn quickly the art. You are Indian?
Indian boy: Yes.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom you are coming?
Indian boy: I was born in New Delhi.
Prabhupada: Oh. How you came here?
Indian boy: Well, my parents moved to Fiji Islands, and I was with them. And then we all came to Australia.
Prabhupada: She is also Indian?
Indian boy: Yes.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom you are?
Indian girl: My parents were born in India and I was brought up in Fiji.
Prabhupada: Now they are in Fiji?
Indian girl: No.
Prabhupada: Where?
Indian girl: My mother's in Australia and my father's in Fiji.
Prabhupada: Oh. So where are your parents? Where they are, your parents?
Indian girl: They are separated.
Paramahamsa: She says they're separated. One lives in Sydney and one lives in Fiji.
Prabhupada: In Fiji there are many Indians.
Indian boy: Yes, there are.
Prabhupada: The language is in Hindi? Fiji?
Indian boy: Indians speak Hindi, Fijians they speak Fijian.
Prabhupada: Fijians they are Europeans? No.
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: They are natives.
Indian boy: Natives.
Prabhupada: They are civilized? No.
Indian boy: I suppose they are. (laughs) Many of them. Those who live a long time near Lautoka.
Paramahamsa: He says those who live in the cities, they are civilized. But others, they live in the villages, not very civilized. You have any other question?
Indian boy: No.
Prabhupada: They have questions? No. (pause) You have got desire to become a devotee?
Indian boy: Pardon?
Prabhupada: You have a desire to become devotee?
Indian boy: Yes, I have.
Prabhupada: So then where is your desire, fulfill it. What you are doing here?
Indian boy: Actually, I've got three friends from work in Sydney, and we started traveling around the country, and we ended up in Perth with no money. So we are here from last four months trying to get a job and save some money and go back to Sydney.
Prabhupada: So not getting job?
Indian boy: Jobs are very scarce in Perth. We've been trying very hard, but so far, it's no go.
Prabhupada: So here we have no arrangement. Huh?
Srutakirti: No. Here there's no arrangement. In Sydney or Melbourne there would be some facility.
Prabhupada: New Delhi you were born? How long you have come?
Indian boy: I was just nine months old when we left Delhi.
Prabhupada: So Australia, they are inviting people to come here for working, but how is that? They do not get job?
Paramahamsa: They are not in control. There is a jobless rate, unemployment. They call it unemployment. It goes out of control. Sometimes people lose their jobs, and they can't find a job. But the government is not able to control the economy very well. All over the world this happens. So sometimes people try to get a job and they can't get the job.
Prabhupada: There is enough jobs if the government arranges to engage them in growing food. But there is no such arrangement.
Paramahamsa: No. There is so much land in Australia.
Prabhupada: The government should have some arrangement for engaging... (end)
Psychiatrist: I have no question.
Prabhupada: He has no question?
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: Then, what shall I say?
Paramahamsa: I don't know, Srila Prabhupada. He had told me that he has read your Bhagavad-gita. He has a copy. Do you have any questions about the Bhagavad-gita? Has he understood it?
Psychiatrist: I just wished to meet you.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Paramahamsa: He says he just wished to meet you. Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse?
Prabhupada: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body -- anyone, but we specially take the human society -- they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment. So the whole Krsna consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is... In India there was a case. A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that... His pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the civil surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad. The civil surgeon said that "So far my experience is concerned -- I have treated so many persons -- in my opinion everyone is mad. So if on account of madness one should be excused from the law, then it is Your Honor's discretion, but so far I have studied, more or less, everyone is mad." Similarly, our study is that unless one is mad, he cannot remain in this material world. So everyone is mentally diseased, and they are concocting their ideas, different ideas. And they are overlapping, my idea, your idea overlapping. Therefore there is clash, unhappiness, violence, individually, socially, familywise, nationwise. This is going on. Therefore everyone requires a treatment, psychiatrist's treatment. And the best treatment is to induce a person to become Krsna conscious. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, a person who is not Krsna conscious, or God conscious, he is basically a mad man and requires treatment. (pause) Ghostly haunted man... You have experienced ghostly haunted man?
Paramahamsa: In Woodsaw (?) there was a ghost. In St. Kilda the devotees used to think there was a ghost, but not a man who was called...
Prabhupada: There is ghost. And sometimes ghost attacks a man. Because he has no material body, he wants to act through other's body. So the man who is attacked, he forgets himself, and he speaks and walks according to the dictation of the ghost. That is called ghostly haunted man.
Srutakirti: What is the significance of... What is this?
Prabhupada: He talks nonsense. Suppose his father comes before him, he calls him by ill names, like that. He talks nonsense. So anyone who is too much materially affected, he also talks nonsense. Anartha upasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje. The treatment is bhakti-yoga. That we are teaching. Without any exception, we accept everyone a patient for psychiatric treatment. He has this book?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then all other books we can show him.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, does the soul, the ghost, enter into the other man's body? The soul is occupying one body, and the ghost, as another soul, does he enter that body? There's two souls in the one body?
Prabhupada: Not exactly enters, but he catches the body. But because the ghost has no gross body -- he has got his subtle body, mind, intelligence, and ego -- you cannot see him, how he has attacked that body. You cannot see the body of mind, intelligence. You know I have got my mind; I know you have got your mind. But you do not see my mind; I do not see your mind. So ghost is within the subtle body: mind, intelligence, and ego. So with that subtle body, he attacks the man, but you cannot see. He does not enter into him. The enter is the soul within the body. Therefore sometimes ghost is walking in the room. We cannot see. But he takes away something. We see that the thing is going away. (laughter) Because you cannot see his gross body. And because he hasn't got gross body, he can move very swiftly. Now he is here; he can go ten miles away immediately. But there is ghost. And they attack specially woman.
Paramahamsa: Is that because the women are weaker?
Prabhupada: No. Woman is attractive for any man, even in ghostly life. The other day, who was telling that a big poet of India, he said that "God's most wonderful creation is woman's body"?
Srutakirti: I think Brahmananda Maharaja mentioned? Acyutananda.
Prabhupada: So, everyone is attracted with the woman's body. In your country I have seen the advertisement: "bottomless," "topless..." That is the material attraction. Everyone is in this material world on account of attachment. And similarly, for woman, the man's body is beautiful. So in this way both of them are attached to one another. That is the basic principle of material life. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45]. They become attached. On account of sex life, they become more attached, and therefore both of them remain almost perpetually in this material world, and to satisfy different desires they transmigrate from one body to another. And on account of accepting this material body, there is always miserable condition. Therefore everyone requires the psychiatric treatment so that the mind may be transferred from matter to spirit soul. Then he will be cured. The disease is of the mind. Harav abhaktasy kuto mahad-guna mano-rathena. Everyone is riding on the chariot of mind. And the mind is taking him here and there, here... And the yoga practice is also treatment. This is also yoga, bhakti-yoga, and this ordinary hatha-yoga, that is also treatment of the mind. Treatment of mind means controlling the senses. Yoga indriya-samyamah. Mind is the leader of the senses. So if the treatment of the mind is done properly, then the senses work properly. The example is the madman. Because the madman's mind is not controlled, he is acting in a way -- people say, "Here is a madman." So everyone is more or less a madman in this material world, or, in other words, you can say anyone who is in the material world, he is a madman. He requires treatment. Just like anyone who is in the prison house, it is to be accepted that he is a criminal. Without any study, without any exception we can accept all the prisoners as criminals. [break] ...gradually appreciate. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This treatment is in the beginning just cleansing the mirror of the heart. That is the treatment. Just like a mirror, when it is overcast with dust, it requires cleansing. So the mental mirror is covered with material dust. So it has to be cleansed. That is the treatment. And when it is cleansed, you can see your real face in the mirror. Similarly, as soon as our heart disease, contaminated by the modes of material nature, is cleansed, you can understand what is your real position. That is the success of psychiatric treatment. One comes to know, "What I am." Aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul; I am not this body." That is called brahma-bhutah stage. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. He becomes immediately happy. And happiness means na socati na kanksati: "He does not lament, neither he desires." Our present disease is we hanker after things which we do not possess, and when that thing is lost, we lament. So hankering and lamenting. So when one is cleansed in the heart, he has no more hankering or desire. This is the symptom. And samah sarvesu bhutesu: "Then he becomes equal to everyone." Everyone means every living being, man and animal, trees, plants, lower or higher. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. Then he enters into the sphere of devotional service. This is the symptom. Then he is perfectly in his original position. Then he is happy. Just like a diseased man. So long the disease is there, he is unhappy. And as soon as the disease is cured, he will be happy. So this material disease, as soon as it is cured, one becomes happy, because he is, by constitution, spiritual being. People have no knowledge even, his..., even about his spiritual identity. Therefore they are unhappy. So if you forget what you have written, then?
Paramahamsa: Do you remember what you wrote about, which part? About Krsna's birth?
Prabhupada: Krsna's birth? But in Bhagavad-gita there is no.
Paramahamsa: Maybe he means...
Indian boy: I've read that in (indistinct) and in other books in Hindi.
Paramahamsa: He said he read in some other...
Indian boy: I've been reading about Krsna.
Paramahamsa: He says he's read many books about Krsna in Hindi also. But maybe he means Chapter Four, verse six, where Krsna says He comes again in this world in His original form. Do you have any questions about Krsna?
Indian boy: Actually, I want to know how could I get more involved in, say, in religion, and... Want to become a truer devotee of Lord Krsna, you know, sacrifice myself really. How could I be one of pure devotee?
Paramahamsa: He wants to know how to become a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: You live with us and you will become pure devotee. They are pure devotees. You live with them and do whatever they are doing, their examples, and you will become pure devotee. Just like in a workshop, if you admit yourself without any knowledge, if you work with the workshop man, gradually you will learn how to work. It is not difficult. Formerly this was the custom in India, that when somebody sends his son to any workshop or any shopkeeper without any pay, so gradually he learns. And the master says, "Now I engage you with some pay." That is the way. Satam prasangat. By living with devotees, you'll learn devotion. So if you are serious, you are welcome. You can live with us and behave according to the other devotees. Then he's a...
Indian boy: Is it possible that I live on my own and still be a devotee?
Prabhupada: That will take long time. That, also, if you follow the regulative principles... It is difficult, little. But easier method is to live with the devotees because the situation and atmosphere in your home is different from devotion. So it is not very helpful. You have got other members in the family?
Indian boy: Yes, there is...
Prabhupada: So if you want to do something, they may not like it. So that is impediment. But if you live with the devotees, then you learn quickly the art. You are Indian?
Indian boy: Yes.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom you are coming?
Indian boy: I was born in New Delhi.
Prabhupada: Oh. How you came here?
Indian boy: Well, my parents moved to Fiji Islands, and I was with them. And then we all came to Australia.
Prabhupada: She is also Indian?
Indian boy: Yes.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom you are?
Indian girl: My parents were born in India and I was brought up in Fiji.
Prabhupada: Now they are in Fiji?
Indian girl: No.
Prabhupada: Where?
Indian girl: My mother's in Australia and my father's in Fiji.
Prabhupada: Oh. So where are your parents? Where they are, your parents?
Indian girl: They are separated.
Paramahamsa: She says they're separated. One lives in Sydney and one lives in Fiji.
Prabhupada: In Fiji there are many Indians.
Indian boy: Yes, there are.
Prabhupada: The language is in Hindi? Fiji?
Indian boy: Indians speak Hindi, Fijians they speak Fijian.
Prabhupada: Fijians they are Europeans? No.
Paramahamsa: No.
Prabhupada: They are natives.
Indian boy: Natives.
Prabhupada: They are civilized? No.
Indian boy: I suppose they are. (laughs) Many of them. Those who live a long time near Lautoka.
Paramahamsa: He says those who live in the cities, they are civilized. But others, they live in the villages, not very civilized. You have any other question?
Indian boy: No.
Prabhupada: They have questions? No. (pause) You have got desire to become a devotee?
Indian boy: Pardon?
Prabhupada: You have a desire to become devotee?
Indian boy: Yes, I have.
Prabhupada: So then where is your desire, fulfill it. What you are doing here?
Indian boy: Actually, I've got three friends from work in Sydney, and we started traveling around the country, and we ended up in Perth with no money. So we are here from last four months trying to get a job and save some money and go back to Sydney.
Prabhupada: So not getting job?
Indian boy: Jobs are very scarce in Perth. We've been trying very hard, but so far, it's no go.
Prabhupada: So here we have no arrangement. Huh?
Srutakirti: No. Here there's no arrangement. In Sydney or Melbourne there would be some facility.
Prabhupada: New Delhi you were born? How long you have come?
Indian boy: I was just nine months old when we left Delhi.
Prabhupada: So Australia, they are inviting people to come here for working, but how is that? They do not get job?
Paramahamsa: They are not in control. There is a jobless rate, unemployment. They call it unemployment. It goes out of control. Sometimes people lose their jobs, and they can't find a job. But the government is not able to control the economy very well. All over the world this happens. So sometimes people try to get a job and they can't get the job.
Prabhupada: There is enough jobs if the government arranges to engage them in growing food. But there is no such arrangement.
Paramahamsa: No. There is so much land in Australia.
Prabhupada: The government should have some arrangement for engaging... (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975,
Perth
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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