Hamsaduta:mayadhyaksena
prakrtih
suyate sa-caracaram
hetunanena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
"This material nature is working under my direction, O son of Kunti, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again."
Prabhupada: So when Krsna is directing, is it aimless? The whole cosmic manifestation, is it aimless? There is some purpose. Otherwise, why God has created, and He's directing? These people, they cannot understand it.
Yogesvara: They'll challenge. They have arguments.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Yogesvara: They will say that: "If you..." Just like... Actually things... There is no order behind things. If you throw a ball against a wall...
Prabhupada: Who is rascal throwing that ball? Who is that rascal? Throwing that ball? If you are giving that example, somebody's throwing ball, who is that rascal, throwing that ball?
Yogesvara: Let's say someone who wants to prove there's no direction to the way..."
Prabhupada: Rascal, if you, as soon as you say: "Throwing ball," somebody's throwing. How can you deny it? You give the example, "throwing ball," but throwing ball means somebody's throwing.
Bhagavan: The original thrower.
Prabhupada: Yes. The motion is given by somebody.
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal.
Bhagavan: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical.
Prabhupada: Matter is... What is that? Let us understand this point?
Devotee: They were saying to us that, that there is no God behind everything...
Prabhupada: Now why not? Can, can... Have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there?
Devotee: Well, that's what they say.
Prabhupada: They say that rascaldom. That word say.
Devotee: I just say what they say.
Prabhupada: But you are saying... Was this tape recorder was existing, or somebody has prepared?
Yogesvara: A man has prepared it.
Prabhupada: Man has prepared it. Then somebody must prepare.
Yogesvara: But it's man's intelligence that has created that machine.
Prabhupada: Well, man or somebody, but try to understand generally: Anything that you see, that is created by man or beast or somebody. It is created. So this cosmic manifestation, why do you say that it is not created? It is created. You do not know who has created. That is your ignorance. But as I have no experience, in this material world, which is not created... It is created. You are created. Still. How can you say it is not created?
Guru-gauranga: But then the profane, Prabhupada, they say that: "Let us carry that logic to the very end, that even God is created. Then why... You say God is having no..."
Prabhupada: No. No. God is created, you can say. But when a created thing is, then he's not God. Our, our proposition is that everything is created, but finally if we find somebody, he's not created, then he's God.
Yogesvara: They would say: our conclusion was just now that everything has to have been created.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Everything has some source of origin.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: So if everything has some source of origin, how can there be something that does not have a source of origin?
Prabhupada: No, when there is no source of origin, that is God.
Bhagavan: Just like Krsna showed Arjuna His universal form. So He established that He was the origin of everything, and He had no cause.
Prabhupada: Yes. Cause of all causes. Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. Everything has some cause, but when you finally come to a thing who has no cause, then He's God.
Bhagavan: The rascals...
Prabhupada: Vedanta-sutra: janmadyasya yatah. The origin of everything. But He's not originated from something else. And that is God. Therefore He's called Absolute. Everything here is relative. And God is Absolute. That is the difference between Absolute and relative.
Bhagavan: They are like children. They want to see that... They are like children. They want to see that original cause immediately. And if they do not see the original cause immediately, they say there is no original cause.
Prabhupada: That is childish. That is childish.
Yogesvara: So let's say someone proposes that God has created everyone equal...
Prabhupada: Hmmm?
Yogesvara: God has created everyone equal. God has created all His children as equal spiritual beings. So why is it that, that one person is fully Krsna conscious, and I have no interest in Krsna consciousness. That means we're not equal, there's some flaw in God's creation.
Prabhupada: No, that is your flaw. That is your flaw. God says that: "You simply surrender unto Me." But does it mean that everyone is surrendering to God?
Yogesvara: No. Then they're not equal.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Then God's creations are not...
Prabhupada: No, no. That, that... Suppose I have got ten sons or so many disciples. I say that: "You do this." Somebody may not do it. That independence everyone has got. So after being so-called independent, when he does not do, according to the instruction of God, he becomes different. God has created everyone equally, but when he disobeys the order of God, then he becomes different. Where is the flaw in this statement? I say everyone of my students that: "Don't do this." But if somebody does it, then he becomes different.
Hamsaduta: Yes. Their argument is... They will say that just the fact that the living entity has the independence and, and the possibility is there for him to make a mistake, they consider it to be a flaw.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: If it's better to be...
Hamsaduta: But they consider it to be God's flaw.
Prabhupada: No, why God's flaw.
Yogesvara: Because He has given us the chance to fall down.
Prabhupada: Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence... Just like Krsna is giving independence to Arjuna: "Now I have explained to you everything. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, acceptance... That is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence.
Yogesvara: Then why has He given us independence if...
Prabhupada: Yes, He must give because we, He, He has got...
Yogesvara: ...if we misuse it?
Prabhupada: He has got, He's the Supreme Independent, and living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore you must have independence. Otherwise, how he becomes perfect part and parcel?
Guru-gauranga: And if he did not have independence, that would be the flaw.
Prabhupada: Yes. That will be the fault.
Bhagavan: That makes everything complete.
Prabhupada: Yes. Independence means that you can do or not do. That is independence.
Bhagavan: Their definition of perfect is wrong. Just like this boy's definition of a poet.
Prabhupada: He's a rascal. He's simply bogus. He's trying to... There are so many parties like that. They're four or five, they make a group and imitate these Beatles. As if... Beatles have made money. They'll also make money. That is the... And speak all nonsense. That's all. These are crazy fellows. So independence means that you can do or not do. Just like you, as a nation, American nation, or English nation, you are all independent. But why you go to the jail? Is it government's fault that you go to the jail? Therefore government has fault? Why this nonsense question. When a man, instead of going to the university, goes to the police custody, is it government's fault? Is it?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: Then? It is a common sense affair. The God has given you independence. If you do something wrong, against the will of God, then you must suffer. Therefore we find so many varieties of living entities. In different grades of life. That is due to misuse of independence.
Yogesvara: Very popular today is the idea that if we are use, misusing our independence, it's because of our upbringing, our childhood, our society, something is wrong in our psychology. Not that it's the soul, not that it's a question of spiritual problem, but material one, that our parents were cruel or our society, our education was imperfect or something. But not spiritual problem.
Prabhupada: So that is independence. Your parents were cruel. Therefore you have revolted against the parents. That is your independence. Why you revolted against parents? Because you have got the independence.
Devotee: What shall we say to someone, Prabhupada...
Prabhupada: Otherwise, if you are doing stereotyping, then in spite of your father being cruel, you would not declare independence and go away from home. Because you have got this independence, therefore you can understand that: "Why shall I obey this father? I go out." That is independence. They do not understand the meaning of independence.
Hamsaduta: Because they've lost their independence.
Prabhupada: Hmmm?
Hamsaduta: Because they've lost their independence.
Prabhupada: Not lost. Misused.
Hamsaduta: Fallen into maya. Or misused.
Prabhupada: Not lost. Independence still there. He can go back again to father, go back to home, back to Godhead. God says that: sarva-dharman... "You have come here to enjoy your independence, but you have created a havoc, entanglement. Now, if you simply surrender unto Me, abide by My orders, I give you all concessions. Immediately you are free from all reaction and come back to Me." Therefore, God comes to canvass, He sends His devotee to canvass, that: "You give up your misuse of independence and become happy." That is Krsna consciousness program. But if you still stick to the independence, misuse of independence, you remain here.
Bhagavan: The trouble with these philosophies is these philosophers are simply stubborn.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: The problem with these different discussions is these philosophers are simply stubborn. When they hear a better philosophy, they still will not change.
Prabhupada: That, that is independence. That is also independence. You accept: "Yes, what you say, it is right. But I'll not accept." That is also independence, misuse of independence.
Yogesvara: Like Dhrtarastra, when he heard the arguments from Vidura.
Prabhupada: Yes. So God's creation is perfect. There is no imperfect.
Guru-gauranga: Does there come a time Srila Prabhupada, when one misuses his independence, the independence is taken away? For example, if...
Prabhupada: Now why shall He take away. What He has given to you, why He shall take?
Guru-gauranga: In animal life?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guru-gauranga: Animal life?
Prabhupada: Animal life, what is that?
Yogesvara: Do animals also have independence?
Prabhupada: Yes. They have got little independence.
Guru-gauranga: They say, "All is instinct."
Prabhupada: You say. They say, all rascals say. But actually this is independence, but because they're animals, they are directed by nature, more or less. Just like they do not... My point is they do not misuse independence as much as a human being does. You see. Just like a tiger. He is to eat animals, killing animals. He does not come to your orchard to steal your fruits. But you, rascal human being, you eat fruits and animals both. Animal, that is instinct. Animal... Suppose if you put -- I've given this example many times -- a bag of rice on the street. Many birds will come. But he will eat some grains, five grains, ten grains and twenty grains, as much he can eat, and go away. But you do the same favor to the human beings, there will be fight. Everyone will try to take some more quantity in the house and stock it. Therefore, the human being is more responsible for sinful activities.
Guru-gauranga: So the rascal thinks that independence, the manifestation, the symptom of independence is to misuse independence.
Prabhupada: What?
Guru-gauranga: He thinks the symptom... I am independent. I will show you I am independent. I will misuse my independence.
Prabhupada: No. There's... Just like you are a citizen of French government. You are also independent. If the government says that if you do this, then you'll be punished. So when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent.
Guru-gauranga: So real independence means to surrender then.
Prabhupada: Yes. To authority. Because you have to surrender. If you don't surrender to God, then you have to surrender to maya. Just like you don't surrender to government, then you have to surrender to the superintendent of jail. That's all. If you misuse your independence, you'll not be happy. This is the fact. But you have got the independence. You can misuse it. That is your prerogative. That is your freedom. Freedom means you must have independence. But because you are not absolutely independent, so you suffer. The Absolute Independent is God, Krsna. Just like government. The government orders: let this crowd be shot. Let there be bullet shot. Hundreds of men die. But government is not responsible for such death. But if you kill one man, you'll be responsible. So your independence is subordinate independence. Similarly, all living entities, they have been given independence by God, but his independence is subordinate to the independence of God. This is our position, jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109].
Yogesvara: There are so many young people who, when we try to preach to them Krsna consciousness, we explain that it means to accept the position of service, service position, they reject it because they have no experience of service that is satisfying.
Prabhupada: Hm? They have rejected so many things. Why not your proposal? Just like the hippies. They have rejected so many things. Why shall he accept your proposal? Why you think that your proposal is so nice, he'll accept immediately?
Yogesvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach to them.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach...
Prabhupada: You preach. You just purify them. Chant Hare Krsna. Let him hear. Then he'll accept. Then he will gradually come. Yes. He's now in diseased condition. The best thing is to chant. By hearing the Hare Krsna mantra, he'll be gradually purified, cleansed, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. You must polish him. Just like this is unclean. Polish it and you'll see the reflection. Our process is param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. [break] ...srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani... [SB 1.2.17].
Yogesvara: Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Yogesvara: Second Chapter.
Prabhupada: Hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt satam.
Yogesvara: Verse number seven, Second Chapter.
Prabhupada: Everyone is diseased. So you have to give the medicine and gradually he'll be cured. Just like when I came first, nobody was my devotee. But the medicine was given, little, little, little. And they became. So you cannot immediately expect that everyone will hear your words. Why? What you are? Why shall he respect you? Cure them. What is that? You have got it?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: In the First Part, there is. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah [SB 1.2.17]. Kirtana. Punya-sravana-kirtanah. If one hears from you, he doesn't do. If he simply hears Hare Krsna mantra, then he'll be purified. Simply by hearing.
Bhagavan: But we can understand that even though we present so many good arguments, philosophically, if a person still does not accept it is simply because he is addicted to sinful activity. So therefore there's nothing other to do than chant.
Prabhupada: Hearing is the first. Sankirtana. Let him..., give, give him chance for hearing Hare Krsna.
Hamsaduta:
srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
punya-sravana-kirtanah
hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrt satam
[SB 1.2.17]
"Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma, Supersoul, in everyone's heart, and the benefactor of the truthful devotee..."
Prabhupada: The Paramatma... Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi. He's also ksetrajna. He's also in the body. So here He does His work. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah. Yes. Read the translation.
Hamsaduta: "Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."
Prabhupada: Yes. The chanting and hearing goes on. And if one agrees to hear and chant, then Krsna helps from within. He cleanses. Suhrt satam. Because He wants to reform them. Suhrt satam. Everyone, especially the devotee. So He helps cleanse him. In this way, if he's given chance to hear, again and again, then the next verse... See.
Hamsaduta: The next verse?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: Nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata... [SB 1.2.18].
Prabhupada: Nasta-prayesu abhadresu. His heart is filled up with so many dirty things. So by that process, when he agrees to hear, chanting and hearing... Therefore we say: "Chant Hare Krsna." I say Hare Krsna, and we ask others to chant. Response. By this process, his heart becomes cleansed. And next verse says: nasta-prayesu abhadresu. Not that it has become completely cleansed. A little, or almost cleansed. Nasta-prayesu abhadresu.
Hamsaduta: Nityam bhagavata-sevaya.
Prabhupada: By this process, nityam bhagavata-sevaya, by hearing the message of Krsna, Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is also about Krsna, chanting about Krsna, nityam daily, regularly, nityam bhagavata-sevaya...
Hamsaduta: Bhagavaty uttama-sloke...
Prabhupada: Bhaktir bhavati naisthiki. Then he becomes fixed up in devotional service. Not that he has completely become cleansed. Even little cleansed, then he will engage. Then he will hear. "What does he say?" Unclean, how he can take up?
Hamsaduta: He can't accept it.
Prabhupada: No. Unclean. Therefore we make more cleaner, cleaner, cleaner, cleaner. The more he becomes cleansed, he can understand. He'll accept. But unclean state, you do not expect. So the process of cleanliness is this ceto-darpana-marjanam, param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The more they read literature, the more hear, more chanting, in this way, gradually... Then next verse?
Hamsaduta: Tada rajas-tamo...
Prabhupada: Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19].
Hamsaduta: Ceta etair...
Prabhupada: Ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati. In this way, as the heart becomes cleansed, he revives his quality of goodness. And when he's situated in the quality of goodness, the other two qualities, passion and ignorance, cannot infect him. By this process. Rajas-tamo-bhavah. Rajas-tamo-bhavah. The example is kama-lobhadayas ca ye. When one is too much affected with the rajo-guna and tamo-guna, passion and ignorance... What is this kama? Lusty and greediness. These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-guna. So then therefore we see that all people are lusty and greedy. So as soon as he becomes cleansed, come to the standard of goodness, these two qualities cannot affect him anymore. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. One has to take the process. And it is simple process. Simple... And that, that is actually happening, in our practical experience. They say, they say... They are all rascals, fools. They can say anything and everything. Pagale kim abole chagale kim na khaoya. In the Bengali it is said: A madman, what does he not speak? He speaks any nonsense. And a goat, what does he not eat? So if you keep a madman... They are keeping them mad... That is our protest, that why you are keeping all people mad, crazy, nonsense? And you are also teacher, university? They have no knowledge that what is the aim of life. That you have to protest. So as we gradually increase our strength, our number, we have to protest to the world that: "Why you rascal and fools, keeping the whole human society in darkness? You have no knowledge." Here God says that: 'Under My direction the prakrti's working.' You have no knowledge. You are saying that there is no aim. Without aim, why God should create this, such a big gigantic manifestation. Why He should take responsibility? Is there no responsibility to maintain this gigantic... God has got immense power. He can maintain. That is another thing. But why He should take the responsibility? Just like government creates a big prison house. It is not for nothing. There is some aim. Otherwise, why government should keep such establishment, huge establishment? It is not something faith(?). They are to be given cloth and shelter and everything, the arrangement. Similarly such gigantic universal manifestation, millions and millions of living entities are there. They have to be trained up. They have to be provided with all necessities of life. This responsibility's there. And actually God is doing that. He's giving food. He's giving necessities. Why? There is some aim. The aim is that they have misused their independence. Try to reform them again (indistinct). This is the aim. All these living entities in the material world, the have misused their independence. Therefore, they are in the material world. Otherwise why should they remain in the material world? Anyone who is in this material world, it is to be understood that he's misused his independence. (end)
suyate sa-caracaram
hetunanena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
"This material nature is working under my direction, O son of Kunti, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again."
Prabhupada: So when Krsna is directing, is it aimless? The whole cosmic manifestation, is it aimless? There is some purpose. Otherwise, why God has created, and He's directing? These people, they cannot understand it.
Yogesvara: They'll challenge. They have arguments.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Yogesvara: They will say that: "If you..." Just like... Actually things... There is no order behind things. If you throw a ball against a wall...
Prabhupada: Who is rascal throwing that ball? Who is that rascal? Throwing that ball? If you are giving that example, somebody's throwing ball, who is that rascal, throwing that ball?
Yogesvara: Let's say someone who wants to prove there's no direction to the way..."
Prabhupada: Rascal, if you, as soon as you say: "Throwing ball," somebody's throwing. How can you deny it? You give the example, "throwing ball," but throwing ball means somebody's throwing.
Bhagavan: The original thrower.
Prabhupada: Yes. The motion is given by somebody.
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal.
Bhagavan: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical.
Prabhupada: Matter is... What is that? Let us understand this point?
Devotee: They were saying to us that, that there is no God behind everything...
Prabhupada: Now why not? Can, can... Have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there?
Devotee: Well, that's what they say.
Prabhupada: They say that rascaldom. That word say.
Devotee: I just say what they say.
Prabhupada: But you are saying... Was this tape recorder was existing, or somebody has prepared?
Yogesvara: A man has prepared it.
Prabhupada: Man has prepared it. Then somebody must prepare.
Yogesvara: But it's man's intelligence that has created that machine.
Prabhupada: Well, man or somebody, but try to understand generally: Anything that you see, that is created by man or beast or somebody. It is created. So this cosmic manifestation, why do you say that it is not created? It is created. You do not know who has created. That is your ignorance. But as I have no experience, in this material world, which is not created... It is created. You are created. Still. How can you say it is not created?
Guru-gauranga: But then the profane, Prabhupada, they say that: "Let us carry that logic to the very end, that even God is created. Then why... You say God is having no..."
Prabhupada: No. No. God is created, you can say. But when a created thing is, then he's not God. Our, our proposition is that everything is created, but finally if we find somebody, he's not created, then he's God.
Yogesvara: They would say: our conclusion was just now that everything has to have been created.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Everything has some source of origin.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: So if everything has some source of origin, how can there be something that does not have a source of origin?
Prabhupada: No, when there is no source of origin, that is God.
Bhagavan: Just like Krsna showed Arjuna His universal form. So He established that He was the origin of everything, and He had no cause.
Prabhupada: Yes. Cause of all causes. Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. Everything has some cause, but when you finally come to a thing who has no cause, then He's God.
Bhagavan: The rascals...
Prabhupada: Vedanta-sutra: janmadyasya yatah. The origin of everything. But He's not originated from something else. And that is God. Therefore He's called Absolute. Everything here is relative. And God is Absolute. That is the difference between Absolute and relative.
Bhagavan: They are like children. They want to see that... They are like children. They want to see that original cause immediately. And if they do not see the original cause immediately, they say there is no original cause.
Prabhupada: That is childish. That is childish.
Yogesvara: So let's say someone proposes that God has created everyone equal...
Prabhupada: Hmmm?
Yogesvara: God has created everyone equal. God has created all His children as equal spiritual beings. So why is it that, that one person is fully Krsna conscious, and I have no interest in Krsna consciousness. That means we're not equal, there's some flaw in God's creation.
Prabhupada: No, that is your flaw. That is your flaw. God says that: "You simply surrender unto Me." But does it mean that everyone is surrendering to God?
Yogesvara: No. Then they're not equal.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Then God's creations are not...
Prabhupada: No, no. That, that... Suppose I have got ten sons or so many disciples. I say that: "You do this." Somebody may not do it. That independence everyone has got. So after being so-called independent, when he does not do, according to the instruction of God, he becomes different. God has created everyone equally, but when he disobeys the order of God, then he becomes different. Where is the flaw in this statement? I say everyone of my students that: "Don't do this." But if somebody does it, then he becomes different.
Hamsaduta: Yes. Their argument is... They will say that just the fact that the living entity has the independence and, and the possibility is there for him to make a mistake, they consider it to be a flaw.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: If it's better to be...
Hamsaduta: But they consider it to be God's flaw.
Prabhupada: No, why God's flaw.
Yogesvara: Because He has given us the chance to fall down.
Prabhupada: Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence... Just like Krsna is giving independence to Arjuna: "Now I have explained to you everything. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, acceptance... That is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence.
Yogesvara: Then why has He given us independence if...
Prabhupada: Yes, He must give because we, He, He has got...
Yogesvara: ...if we misuse it?
Prabhupada: He has got, He's the Supreme Independent, and living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore you must have independence. Otherwise, how he becomes perfect part and parcel?
Guru-gauranga: And if he did not have independence, that would be the flaw.
Prabhupada: Yes. That will be the fault.
Bhagavan: That makes everything complete.
Prabhupada: Yes. Independence means that you can do or not do. That is independence.
Bhagavan: Their definition of perfect is wrong. Just like this boy's definition of a poet.
Prabhupada: He's a rascal. He's simply bogus. He's trying to... There are so many parties like that. They're four or five, they make a group and imitate these Beatles. As if... Beatles have made money. They'll also make money. That is the... And speak all nonsense. That's all. These are crazy fellows. So independence means that you can do or not do. Just like you, as a nation, American nation, or English nation, you are all independent. But why you go to the jail? Is it government's fault that you go to the jail? Therefore government has fault? Why this nonsense question. When a man, instead of going to the university, goes to the police custody, is it government's fault? Is it?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: Then? It is a common sense affair. The God has given you independence. If you do something wrong, against the will of God, then you must suffer. Therefore we find so many varieties of living entities. In different grades of life. That is due to misuse of independence.
Yogesvara: Very popular today is the idea that if we are use, misusing our independence, it's because of our upbringing, our childhood, our society, something is wrong in our psychology. Not that it's the soul, not that it's a question of spiritual problem, but material one, that our parents were cruel or our society, our education was imperfect or something. But not spiritual problem.
Prabhupada: So that is independence. Your parents were cruel. Therefore you have revolted against the parents. That is your independence. Why you revolted against parents? Because you have got the independence.
Devotee: What shall we say to someone, Prabhupada...
Prabhupada: Otherwise, if you are doing stereotyping, then in spite of your father being cruel, you would not declare independence and go away from home. Because you have got this independence, therefore you can understand that: "Why shall I obey this father? I go out." That is independence. They do not understand the meaning of independence.
Hamsaduta: Because they've lost their independence.
Prabhupada: Hmmm?
Hamsaduta: Because they've lost their independence.
Prabhupada: Not lost. Misused.
Hamsaduta: Fallen into maya. Or misused.
Prabhupada: Not lost. Independence still there. He can go back again to father, go back to home, back to Godhead. God says that: sarva-dharman... "You have come here to enjoy your independence, but you have created a havoc, entanglement. Now, if you simply surrender unto Me, abide by My orders, I give you all concessions. Immediately you are free from all reaction and come back to Me." Therefore, God comes to canvass, He sends His devotee to canvass, that: "You give up your misuse of independence and become happy." That is Krsna consciousness program. But if you still stick to the independence, misuse of independence, you remain here.
Bhagavan: The trouble with these philosophies is these philosophers are simply stubborn.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: The problem with these different discussions is these philosophers are simply stubborn. When they hear a better philosophy, they still will not change.
Prabhupada: That, that is independence. That is also independence. You accept: "Yes, what you say, it is right. But I'll not accept." That is also independence, misuse of independence.
Yogesvara: Like Dhrtarastra, when he heard the arguments from Vidura.
Prabhupada: Yes. So God's creation is perfect. There is no imperfect.
Guru-gauranga: Does there come a time Srila Prabhupada, when one misuses his independence, the independence is taken away? For example, if...
Prabhupada: Now why shall He take away. What He has given to you, why He shall take?
Guru-gauranga: In animal life?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guru-gauranga: Animal life?
Prabhupada: Animal life, what is that?
Yogesvara: Do animals also have independence?
Prabhupada: Yes. They have got little independence.
Guru-gauranga: They say, "All is instinct."
Prabhupada: You say. They say, all rascals say. But actually this is independence, but because they're animals, they are directed by nature, more or less. Just like they do not... My point is they do not misuse independence as much as a human being does. You see. Just like a tiger. He is to eat animals, killing animals. He does not come to your orchard to steal your fruits. But you, rascal human being, you eat fruits and animals both. Animal, that is instinct. Animal... Suppose if you put -- I've given this example many times -- a bag of rice on the street. Many birds will come. But he will eat some grains, five grains, ten grains and twenty grains, as much he can eat, and go away. But you do the same favor to the human beings, there will be fight. Everyone will try to take some more quantity in the house and stock it. Therefore, the human being is more responsible for sinful activities.
Guru-gauranga: So the rascal thinks that independence, the manifestation, the symptom of independence is to misuse independence.
Prabhupada: What?
Guru-gauranga: He thinks the symptom... I am independent. I will show you I am independent. I will misuse my independence.
Prabhupada: No. There's... Just like you are a citizen of French government. You are also independent. If the government says that if you do this, then you'll be punished. So when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent.
Guru-gauranga: So real independence means to surrender then.
Prabhupada: Yes. To authority. Because you have to surrender. If you don't surrender to God, then you have to surrender to maya. Just like you don't surrender to government, then you have to surrender to the superintendent of jail. That's all. If you misuse your independence, you'll not be happy. This is the fact. But you have got the independence. You can misuse it. That is your prerogative. That is your freedom. Freedom means you must have independence. But because you are not absolutely independent, so you suffer. The Absolute Independent is God, Krsna. Just like government. The government orders: let this crowd be shot. Let there be bullet shot. Hundreds of men die. But government is not responsible for such death. But if you kill one man, you'll be responsible. So your independence is subordinate independence. Similarly, all living entities, they have been given independence by God, but his independence is subordinate to the independence of God. This is our position, jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109].
Yogesvara: There are so many young people who, when we try to preach to them Krsna consciousness, we explain that it means to accept the position of service, service position, they reject it because they have no experience of service that is satisfying.
Prabhupada: Hm? They have rejected so many things. Why not your proposal? Just like the hippies. They have rejected so many things. Why shall he accept your proposal? Why you think that your proposal is so nice, he'll accept immediately?
Yogesvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach to them.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach...
Prabhupada: You preach. You just purify them. Chant Hare Krsna. Let him hear. Then he'll accept. Then he will gradually come. Yes. He's now in diseased condition. The best thing is to chant. By hearing the Hare Krsna mantra, he'll be gradually purified, cleansed, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. You must polish him. Just like this is unclean. Polish it and you'll see the reflection. Our process is param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. [break] ...srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani... [SB 1.2.17].
Yogesvara: Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Yogesvara: Second Chapter.
Prabhupada: Hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt satam.
Yogesvara: Verse number seven, Second Chapter.
Prabhupada: Everyone is diseased. So you have to give the medicine and gradually he'll be cured. Just like when I came first, nobody was my devotee. But the medicine was given, little, little, little. And they became. So you cannot immediately expect that everyone will hear your words. Why? What you are? Why shall he respect you? Cure them. What is that? You have got it?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: In the First Part, there is. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah [SB 1.2.17]. Kirtana. Punya-sravana-kirtanah. If one hears from you, he doesn't do. If he simply hears Hare Krsna mantra, then he'll be purified. Simply by hearing.
Bhagavan: But we can understand that even though we present so many good arguments, philosophically, if a person still does not accept it is simply because he is addicted to sinful activity. So therefore there's nothing other to do than chant.
Prabhupada: Hearing is the first. Sankirtana. Let him..., give, give him chance for hearing Hare Krsna.
Hamsaduta:
srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
punya-sravana-kirtanah
hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrt satam
[SB 1.2.17]
"Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma, Supersoul, in everyone's heart, and the benefactor of the truthful devotee..."
Prabhupada: The Paramatma... Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi. He's also ksetrajna. He's also in the body. So here He does His work. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah. Yes. Read the translation.
Hamsaduta: "Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."
Prabhupada: Yes. The chanting and hearing goes on. And if one agrees to hear and chant, then Krsna helps from within. He cleanses. Suhrt satam. Because He wants to reform them. Suhrt satam. Everyone, especially the devotee. So He helps cleanse him. In this way, if he's given chance to hear, again and again, then the next verse... See.
Hamsaduta: The next verse?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: Nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata... [SB 1.2.18].
Prabhupada: Nasta-prayesu abhadresu. His heart is filled up with so many dirty things. So by that process, when he agrees to hear, chanting and hearing... Therefore we say: "Chant Hare Krsna." I say Hare Krsna, and we ask others to chant. Response. By this process, his heart becomes cleansed. And next verse says: nasta-prayesu abhadresu. Not that it has become completely cleansed. A little, or almost cleansed. Nasta-prayesu abhadresu.
Hamsaduta: Nityam bhagavata-sevaya.
Prabhupada: By this process, nityam bhagavata-sevaya, by hearing the message of Krsna, Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is also about Krsna, chanting about Krsna, nityam daily, regularly, nityam bhagavata-sevaya...
Hamsaduta: Bhagavaty uttama-sloke...
Prabhupada: Bhaktir bhavati naisthiki. Then he becomes fixed up in devotional service. Not that he has completely become cleansed. Even little cleansed, then he will engage. Then he will hear. "What does he say?" Unclean, how he can take up?
Hamsaduta: He can't accept it.
Prabhupada: No. Unclean. Therefore we make more cleaner, cleaner, cleaner, cleaner. The more he becomes cleansed, he can understand. He'll accept. But unclean state, you do not expect. So the process of cleanliness is this ceto-darpana-marjanam, param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The more they read literature, the more hear, more chanting, in this way, gradually... Then next verse?
Hamsaduta: Tada rajas-tamo...
Prabhupada: Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19].
Hamsaduta: Ceta etair...
Prabhupada: Ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati. In this way, as the heart becomes cleansed, he revives his quality of goodness. And when he's situated in the quality of goodness, the other two qualities, passion and ignorance, cannot infect him. By this process. Rajas-tamo-bhavah. Rajas-tamo-bhavah. The example is kama-lobhadayas ca ye. When one is too much affected with the rajo-guna and tamo-guna, passion and ignorance... What is this kama? Lusty and greediness. These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-guna. So then therefore we see that all people are lusty and greedy. So as soon as he becomes cleansed, come to the standard of goodness, these two qualities cannot affect him anymore. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. One has to take the process. And it is simple process. Simple... And that, that is actually happening, in our practical experience. They say, they say... They are all rascals, fools. They can say anything and everything. Pagale kim abole chagale kim na khaoya. In the Bengali it is said: A madman, what does he not speak? He speaks any nonsense. And a goat, what does he not eat? So if you keep a madman... They are keeping them mad... That is our protest, that why you are keeping all people mad, crazy, nonsense? And you are also teacher, university? They have no knowledge that what is the aim of life. That you have to protest. So as we gradually increase our strength, our number, we have to protest to the world that: "Why you rascal and fools, keeping the whole human society in darkness? You have no knowledge." Here God says that: 'Under My direction the prakrti's working.' You have no knowledge. You are saying that there is no aim. Without aim, why God should create this, such a big gigantic manifestation. Why He should take responsibility? Is there no responsibility to maintain this gigantic... God has got immense power. He can maintain. That is another thing. But why He should take the responsibility? Just like government creates a big prison house. It is not for nothing. There is some aim. Otherwise, why government should keep such establishment, huge establishment? It is not something faith(?). They are to be given cloth and shelter and everything, the arrangement. Similarly such gigantic universal manifestation, millions and millions of living entities are there. They have to be trained up. They have to be provided with all necessities of life. This responsibility's there. And actually God is doing that. He's giving food. He's giving necessities. Why? There is some aim. The aim is that they have misused their independence. Try to reform them again (indistinct). This is the aim. All these living entities in the material world, the have misused their independence. Therefore, they are in the material world. Otherwise why should they remain in the material world? Anyone who is in this material world, it is to be understood that he's misused his independence. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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